The AIH Transcript for August 17, 2022

SUSAN BONNER: Hello. I'm Susan Bonner.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Theme]

CH: Tonight:

SB: Out, but not down. Liz Cheney's high-profile attacks on Donald Trump may have lost her the Republican primary in Wyoming -- but our guest doesn't think it's the end of her career in politics.

CH: Don't make a federal case out of it.Mike Pence calls on Republicans to stop attacking the FBI for seizing materials from Donald Trump -- but a former agent says that's not going to soothe the concerns of his colleagues.

SB: Air grievances. As airport gridlock continues, one disgruntled passenger is insisting on compensation from WestJet -- saying the time he spent on the ground is grounds for a case.

CH: Sworn enemies. After followers of a Canadian QAnon figure planned to arrest police in Peterborough Ontario, the mayor tweets out the full force of her fervent fury -- using other F-words.

SB: More missile than mistletoe. When Mariah Carey attempts to trademark the phrase "Queen of Christmas", she sparks a war over the Yuletide title -- and winds up dodging several lumps of coal.

CH: And… concrete jungle. California police officers follow a 9-1-1 call to a zoo, where they discover something utterly unspeakable. By which I mean, the caller couldn't speak, because it was a capuchin monkey.

CH: As It Happens, the Wednesday Edition. Radio that warns that monkey: no one likes a tattle tail.

Guest: Tim Stubson

CH: For the past year and a half, Liz Cheney has worked to keep Donald Trump out of Washington, D.C. And now, it seems the opposite has happened. Last night, Ms. Cheney lost the Republican congressional primary in Wyoming to Harriet Hageman by more than 30 percentage points. Ms. Cheney, the daughter of former vice president Dick Cheney, was largely vilified by the Republican Party after voting to impeach Mr. Trump -- and, more recently, vice chairing the House committee tasked with looking into the former U.S. president's role in the January 6th attack. Regardless of her loss, today, Liz Cheney said she wouldn't stop speaking out about Mr. Trump.

[sc]

LIZ CHENEY: I won my primary by 73 percentage points two years ago. The path to that same victory would have been very easy. It was clear how that path would go. But that path would have required that I accept, that I embrace, that I perpetuate the big lie, and I've been very clear at every moment since January 6th that there are some things that have got to be above politics. That there's no political office that's more important than the principles that we take an oath to defend. And I believe that Donald Trump continues to pose a very grave threat and risk to our republic. And I think that defeating him is going to require a broad and united front of Republicans, Democrats and independents. And that's what I intend to be… to be part of.

[/sc]

CH: Liz Cheney speaking this morning on NBC's "Today" show. Tim Stubson is a former Wyoming lawmaker. He ran against Ms. Cheney for the Republican nomination for Congress in 2016 and lost. We reached him in Casper, Wyoming.

SB: Mr. Stubson, back in 2016, you were hoping Liz Cheney would lose in the primary you were running in. How are you feeling about her loss last night?

TIM STUBSON: Well, politics is a strange thing. It's… I am mourning her loss this morning. Of course, it wasn't unexpected, but it was a sad thing to see… see play out.

SB: In her victory speech, Ms. Cheney's opponent, Harriet Hageman, said, quote, we're fed up with the January 6th commission, we're fed up with Liz Cheney. Is that the feeling in Wyoming?

TS: Well, I would say that it's hard to argue that… that it isn't. Because given… given the… the results from yesterday, it was clearly a… an overwhelming rebuke of Liz, and overwhelming support for former President Trump. And so, at least for now, it is, though, clearly Liz is continuing to stay in the fight.

SB: And we've seen a number of the politicians who voted to impeach Donald Trump lose their primaries to Trump-backed candidates, but not all of them. What specifically went wrong for Liz Cheney, do you think?

TS: I mean, in part, it was the fact that she is probably the preeminent voice right now in the Republican Party advocating holding President Trump responsible. And so, you know, more than anything, she, of course, voted for impeachment. She voted for the January 6th committee. But she also… she didn't walk away from that. She's embraced that and pushed it. And I think because of that, it made her obviously a key target for President Trump and Trump supporters here in the state of Wyoming.

SB: Hageman is far from the only Republican candidate in the United States who's claiming that Trump won the election despite a lack of evidence. What does that say about the current state of your party?

TS: It… it's deeply concerning. I mean, you know, in the good old days, we used to be able to agree on facts and disagree on maybe policy and approaches. And now, the two parties live in different realities. And certainly, my party has adopted a reality that doesn't appear to have any basis in fact and certainly not in evidence that has been presented to any court. So, it's deeply concerning to me that you can have a whole section of my party latch on to these… these conspiracies and these… these theories without really demanding any evidence.

SB: A whole section of your party, is it not the majority of your party at this point?

TS: Well, it is. I used to talk about my wing of the party, which is the wing that is ready to move on from Trump. But I think it's more… more a nub than a wing. Because there certainly weren't very many of us in voting yesterday.

SB: How do you account for what's happened?

TS: In part, I think there's… there's many, many explanations. I think in part, the media markets, you know, have taken on a national tone that they haven't had historically, where people are getting all their news from national media. And it makes every race national. It takes away some of the local and… and maybe state issues that we used to see discussed. I think that's a piece of it. I think a piece of it is folks in the U.S. that feel disenfranchized, that feel alienated, that feel like they're falling further and further behind. But there's no clear answer. It's sort of an ugly stew.

SB: Now, back to Mr. Cheney. What has she told you about the death threats that she has faced? That her family has faced? She's now travelling with a security team. How has she described her life to you now?

TS: You know, she's been fairly quiet about those things, hasn't talked about them very much. You see it more reflected in her actions than in her words. And clearly, it impacted her this… this election cycle because she just could not get out in the public like you would expect a candidate to. She couldn't walk in the parade. She couldn't have opened town halls because of the very, very real threats on her life occurring on a regular basis. So, it's concerning that we have a system now where people… one of the first things they… they jump to is threats of violence. And certainly, Liz has seen that firsthand.

SB: Liz Cheney has not ruled out a run for president. What do you think of that? Will she do it? Would you vote for her?

TS: [chuckling] Well, I would vote for her. But I think the question is, are there enough Republicans that would vote for her to make it really make sense? And… and I know she'll think through those… those things fairly carefully. I have a hard time seeing a Republican Party in 2024 that's much different than it is in 2022. But what we do know is that she's going to be strategic and be thoughtful and adopt a course that ensures that she achieves her aim, which is ensuring that Donald Trump isn't president again.

SB: And she still has that key role this fall on the January 6th committee.

TS: Yeah, that's an excellent point. I mean, of course, the election is done, but the committee is not. And they have three months of work. And I think the work that they have done to date has been impactful. Maybe not in Wyoming, but across the nation, I think it has been. And I'm sure that there will be more surprises as… as the committee completes its work.

SB: How do you assess her legacy, given that at this point she looks to be more popular with Democrats than Republicans?

TS: You know, I think that is going to be a momentary glimmer in some respects. You know, Liz's family, her mother is… is a historian in some respects and has written some books about the founding fathers. And so, Liz has a deep appreciation for history. And you can tell that her actions are driven about and by what people will think about her in 10 years, 25 years and 50 years, and not necessarily in the next couple of years. And I think history will show her as being on the right side of these issues.

SB: Mr. Stubson, thank you very much.

TS: Yes, thank you.

SB: Goodbye.

TS: Goodbye.

CH: Tim Stubson is a former Wyoming lawmaker. We reached him in Casper, Wyoming.

[chillhop]

Guest: Diane Therrien

CH: No matter how patient you are, listening to politicians speak can leave you frustrated. You wonder what the person at the podium is even saying. Why they keep insisting a situation is, say, "unacceptable" when their passionless delivery strongly suggests they have no problem accepting it. And whether they've ever said anything they actually meant. Well, you couldn't accuse Diane Therrien, the mayor of Peterborough, Ontario, of being indirect or evasive today. After followers of a Canadian QAnon figure, who calls herself the Queen of Canada, showed up at the Peterborough police station this weekend with plans to arrest officers, Mayor Therrien took to Twitter with her response. One we're not allowed to repeat verbatim on the radio. We reached Mayor Diane Therrien in Ottawa.

SB: Mayor Therrien, we're going to have to bleep out parts of this. But would you read your tweet to us, please?

DIANE THERRIENL: [laughing] Yeah, I can. Just give me a second here. So people have been asking me to comment on the events of the past weekend in Peterborough. I hate giving airtime/the spotlight to these imbeciles. Here is my comments: [beep] off you [beep] wads.

SB: So, why did you think that was the best reaction to what's going on in your city?

DT: Well, I would say that it's… you know, it's a reaction that's been building up for multiple years now. We've… you know, Peterborough has been experiencing protests, you know, occupation, people, you know, disturbing the peace in our… in our downtown and our community for… for close to two years now. And, you know, you can't reason with unreasonable people. And sometimes, you just have to call it like you see it.

SB: But why the profanities?

DT: [laughing] Because… well, because I'm a fan of profanities. And I think that --

SB: Why is that? I'm trying to understand why those words appeal to you and why you think they're effective.

DT: Well, I mean, I'm a millennial, so maybe that's part of it. I grew up, you know, learning the value of, you know, talking scholarly when I have to. I mean, I have a master's degree, so I can talk to you in a scholarly language when I need to. But I can also talk to people on the level that they deserve to be talked to. And these people have treated the city, not just Peterborough, like we've seen it in Ottawa, all across the country. They treat communities and people with disrespect constantly. And yet, they get outraged when… when we respond with that, with that kind of disrespect. Sometimes you just have to call it out. And, you know, I'll stand by that. I've done it before, and I'd do it again.

SB: Is it a stunt? Is it a way to get more attention for yourself?

DT: I mean, I'm not running again. So at this point, no. I mean, this is just… I've got elected because I've tried to be authentic to who I am and… you know, and not use canned, normal political messaging. And it resonates with people. I mean, the response has been overwhelmingly positive because people are tired of seeing this kind of BS happen in… in their community.

SB: Well, what kind of response have you had?

DT: I mean, you know, online, on Twitter, which obviously is where this whole thing stemmed from, you know, the response has been overwhelmingly positive. I've gotten numerous emails and text messages from other politicians, other people in different communities across the country, saying thank you for talking… you know, for standing up and speaking out about this. Of course, there's always going to be some people that are, you know, perturbed by… you know, and take great umbrage at the fact that I use coarse language. But, you know, again, men get away with saying this kind of stuff frequently. And when a young woman does it, suddenly there's a different standard, so.

SB: So, really, you think that… that… that a woman politician using profanities is… will garner a different reaction than if a man were to use the same language?

DT: Yes.

SB: Can you tell us what it is about these followers of this QAnon woman that made you want to be so harsh in your language and in condemnation?

DT: I mean, again, I have been harsh-speaking to these kinds of people for years now. I mean, you can look it up on Google. I told Maxime Bernier and his followers to stay "TF" home [chuckling] back a couple of years ago when they wanted to come and protest in the city of Peterborough. Again, I mean, they're coming there with the intention to disrupt the peace of our community, and to… with the intent to cause harm to people. You know, they came to try to arrest the police. Like, that's the bigger issue that we need to be focusing on. Not the language that I used to call it out, but how we've got to this point where that is seen as okay or acceptable, or that's not the focus of this conversation.

SB: Do you see any evidence --

DT: That is truly wild, the level of delusion that these people are living with and the level of entitlement that they have that they can think they can come to a city, any city, whether it's Peterborough or anywhere, to try to occupy the downtown, to try to arrest our law enforcement officers and then be upset when people call them out for that behaviour. That's the… that's the bigger issue here.

SB: Do you worry that you risk provoking the situation more with your approach, with the language that you use?

DT: I mean, I… again, I've been using this approach for years -- for at least two years -- since, you know, we've been dealing with the height of the pandemic. Sure, there's always the risk of provoking it more. But at the same time, what's the… what's the alternative? To sit back and let this kind of behaviour continue unchallenged? I'm not going to do that. And I… quite frankly, no elected official should be just sitting by and letting that happen.

SB: Do you think they keep coming back to Peterborough because of the way you react?

DT: No, I don't think so. And again, that's the problematic conversation that we're having here. Is that I'm somehow to blame for this? No, it's a bigger… it's a bigger issue.

SB: What conversations have you had with the police following the the violence on the weekend?

DT: I mean, I am a member of the Police Services Board. I'm in frequent contact with our acting Chief Farquharson and, you know, expressed to them my… my gratitude for the way that they handled the situation over the weekend. In fact, I've had some members of the police service also reach out privately and thank me for speaking up [chuckling] in this situation and say, like, we've got your back. And that's what, you know, they wish they could say, but they can't. So, I'm in the position where I can say that.

SB: You're not running again in the… in the election this fall. But as you point out, you've got a lot of support for the way you've approached this. Has it made you reconsider in any way?

DT: No. I mean, I… I sort of fell into politics eight years ago, and I've been very vocal about why I'm stepping away. And part of it is the misogyny that I have to deal with, which is sort of exemplified by some of the conversation that we've had here today. And so, you know, I continue to be a… you know, to speak up for my community. I love Peterborough. I will continue to do that regardless of what… what job or role that I'm in.

SB: Thank you for talking to us today. Appreciate it.

DT: Okay. Thank you.

SB: Bye-bye.

CH: That was Diane Therrien, the Mayor of Peterborough, Ontario, in Ottawa.

[chillhop]

Guest: Lisa Jackson

CH: People call 9-1-1 for all sorts of reasons. Some of them appropriate -- such as reporting a crime or calling an ambulance. Some not -- such as reporting a rude drive-through cashier or trying to order a pizza. But every emergency call has to be investigated seriously. And that included the call that came from a California zoo on Saturday night. When officers responded to that call, they got a surprise. Waiting in the zoo's golf cart was the 9-1-1 caller itself: a Capuchin monkey named Route. Lisa Jackson is the assistant director of "Zoo to You". It was Ms. Jackson's cellphone that Route used. We reached her in Paso Robles, California.

SB: Lisa, how does a monkey get ahold of your cell phone and manage to dial, of all things, 9-1-1?

LISA JACKSON: Well, let me tell you. So we have a rescue zoo here in Paso Robles, California. And we had a zoo phone that's a designated number… and the phone usually sits in my office. And sometimes, if it needs to come with me, it goes in the golf cart. We have 40 acres here, so we kind of have to run around quite a bit. Well, just this particular afternoon, I needed to grab the cell phone and check something. So, I went ahead and picked it up, put it in my cart, and then I had an idea, oh, you know what? I bet Route, my 10-month-old capuchin monkey, would love to go on a cart ride and go over to the zoo while I run some errands. And so, I grabbed her, and she was… she's kind of the passenger in my cart. And we're cruising along, she grabbed the phone and then when I finally noticed and I took it from her, I just laid it back in the cart, got out, went about my business and had her with me.

SB: So, you saw that Route had the phone, and then you took it from her. When did you realize what happened?

LJ: Well, I… I had no idea at that point. You know, Route gets a hold of everything. Capuchin monkeys are brilliant. They're like chimpanzee smart. So, she's always inquisitive. And so, I thought nothing of it. Took the phone, put it back and then her and I went about our business. And it wasn't till about an hour later that the sheriff's department shows up at the zoo. We were surprised because nothing was wrong. And I… hi, officers. Can we help you? And they said, well, somebody from this location with this phone number dialled 9-1-1, and the call dropped. And then they didn't respond to us. So, we were concerned, and we have to come out and check on it. And right then, I was… [SB chuckles] I knew. I knew it was Route. I was like, oh, you've got to be kidding me. I can't believe she did that, so.

SB: How does she even know how to use the telephone?

LJ: Well, she does know how to do some things. It's really interesting watching the process of learning for these monkeys, especially capuchin monkeys. They'll learn. They'll… as she uses her hands, she'll swipe, and she'll see that it changes images. And it keeps her entertained. And she also watches us. If you think about it, she's watching me with the phone all the time. So, very curious about it. And they have thumbs, and they're very capable. They make tools in the wild. They get into crazy hard fruits and figure that out by using tools. So, it's not that surprising that she figured it out. I just… the combination, that kind of surprised me, right? Usually, it would be, let's say, I have a phone number up on the phone. I could see her accidentally calling a friend or somebody, but I just really didn't think that could ever happen.

SB: It is a good thing that she didn't get a hold of Uber Eats.[chuckling]

LJ: Oh… oh, trust me, yeah. Or how about Amazon? Amazon Prime… Primate? [chuckling]

SB: What was the sheriff's reaction when you told the sheriff, it wasn't me, it was Route?

LJ: I felt bad. I'm so sorry, officers. It was… it was our little monkey, Route. And I go, hold on, let me just go get her. And then that will explain everything. Because as soon as you see her, and she's crazy, runs around like… well, like all monkeys do. I bring her out, and they just got a big smile on their face. They're like, okay, this is cool. Coming to a… you know, thinking that something could be really wrong and then getting a smile on your face, this is cool. And then they took a picture of her. And then, the sheriff's office said, hey, you don't mind if we post something about it? We're like, oh, no, absolutely. We… we love supporting the police. And we appreciate that you… the sheriffs showed up like they did. No, they thought it was hilarious.

SB: So, no consequences for Route?

LJ: No, except that I really got to figure out how to keep that phone safe from her now that she… now that I know it's a possibility. [chuckle]

SB: What other kind of… pardon me for saying this, but monkey business does Route get into around the zoo? She rides around with you on the golf cart?

LJ: She does. She… she'll sit on my shoulder and go do… you know, if we have a job to do. Oh, one of her favourite things is in the outback with all the kangaroos. She's kind of grown up around them. So, when I go to clean up, and I rake in stuff, she comes and runs around and plays with the kangaroos. But then, her favourite thing is to find the little piles that I've made, the leaf piles and stuff, and she comes over and gets in them and acts like it's snowing, and throws them in the air like, wooo, look at me! It ruins my piles, and I have to start over. So yeah, things like that.

SB: She sounds like a lot of fun.

LJ: She is. It's… I call it controlled chaos. [chuckling] Because it's just never not entertaining watching her.

SB: Where is Route now?

LJ: Let's see, Route. Like, I have a tent in the outback. And one of its favourite things is to climb all the way to the top and slide down like it's a slide. Oh, and there's Route. Oh, looking for bugs. In the wild, capuchins have a varied diet. A very diverse diet. So, they'll eat bugs and lizards and eggs. They'll also go down in the water and get shellfish and crawdads. So, it's kind of interesting that they can… that's why they're so successful in the wild. Because they… they can adapt to a lot of different kinds of environments.

SB: And to technology, clearly.

LJ: Oh, yes, clearly.

SB: Thank you so much for telling us about Route.

LJ: You're welcome. Thank you so much for calling. And we love everybody's Support. If anybody's ever here in Paso Robles, you can come visit Route.

SB: Thanks, Lisa.

LJ: Okay. Thank you.

SB: Bye-bye.

LJ: Bye-bye.

CH: That was Lisa Jackson, the assistant director of "Zoo to You", a California conservation initiative that educates the community about wild and exotic animals -- including Route the capuchin monkey, who used Ms. Jackson's phone to call 9-1-1 this past weekend.

[Latian flare]

CH: Succession works different ways in different monarchies. But sometimes, the process isn't peaceful. Sometimes, someone just shows up and stages a royal coup. And sometimes, it's Mariah Carey. As you may have heard, Ms. Carey has decided to try to trademark the title "Queen of Christmas". Which would give her exclusive rights to market herself as such. Even though her claim to the throne is kind of tenuous: it… it relies on an article in Billboard magazine referring to her as the "undisputed Queen of Christmas" -- because of one short -- but admittedly enormous -- song.

["All I Want For Christmas Is You" by Mariah Carey]

CH: That's as much as you're legally allowed to play in August. Now, very few monarchies are based completely on the monarch's ability to sing a particular type of song. But the monarchy of Christmas, apparently, is. Because the two people who have challenged Mariah Carey's right to name herself "Queen of Christmas" both also make Christmas music. One is the great Darlene Love.

["Christmas (Baby Please Come Home) by Darlene Love]

CH: Ms. Love recorded that seasonal classic in 1963. Plus which, she points out that David Letterman first called her the "Queen of Christmas" 29 years ago. "And at 81 years of age," she wrote, "I'm NOT changing anything." The second complainant is Elizabeth Chan.

["Christmas In The City" By Elizabeth Chan]

CH: Too long. Ms. Chan has also been called the "Queen of Christmas" because she only writes and records Christmas music. At least seven albums' worth so far. So she's formally challenging Mariah Carey's claim with the U.S. trademark appeals board. Now, some might say that all this back-and-forth doesn't exactly fit the spirit of the season. But, look, out of nowhere, Mariah Carey started a huge argument that got out of hand quickly, and now everyone's mad at each other. And that sounds like Christmas to me.

[Christmas rock]

Guest: Greg Ehrie

CH: Mike Pence is asking his Republican colleagues to go a little easier on the FBI. The former U.S. Vice President made the appeal today, as the U.S. police agency faces threats of violence from supporters of Donald Trump. They blame the FBI for participating in the seizure of documents from Mr. Trump's Florida resort. That seizure has also prompted Republican congress members to call for the agency to be 'destroyed' and 'defunded'.

Greg Ehrie is a former FBI agent who is now a vice president of the Anti-Defamation League. We reached him in New York.

SB: Mr. Ehrie, former Vice President Mike Pence said today that the Republican Party, quote, stands with the men and women who stand on the thin blue line at the federal and state and local level. Is that how it felt over the last week for the men and women who you served with?

GREG EHRIE: It is a great start. And I commend the former vice president because we haven't seen the very explicit, outspoken support for the men and women who serve the country in law enforcement. So, while I applaud him, I would love to see more of that. This… this criticism, this… as we've talked about, this unprecedented… unprecedented rise in this violent rhetoric that we're seeing is translating into direct threats against these men and women who are doing no more than their jobs. So, it was a very, very good start and very appreciated by my former colleagues in law enforcement.

SB: What kinds of things have you been hearing from those former colleagues?

GE: Everything running from anger to distress to nervousness. Again, some of the words that are being used that we're seeing both publicly and then in some of the dark spaces on social media. Words like kill them, hang them, burn their children. Really violent, violent rhetoric. And not… not a small minority. This is a loud, loud, loud voice that we're hearing. And you can imagine how that makes one feel in any… not only in law enforcement, where there's always an element of danger, an element of threats. But to see that volume and to see family members pulled into that. And, again, for nothing short of being employed by law enforcement. And one of the the contexts on social media we saw today was just kill any FBI employee any way you can, and anywhere you could find them. That's something that I have never seen in 22 years of federal law enforcement.

SB: In fact, one man has been arrested for making threats over the Mar-a-Lago search.

GE: Yes.

SB: And then there was that incident in Ohio last week with the attack on the FBI office in Cincinnati. How worried are you?

GE: I'm worried. Very worried. And the two incidents you mentioned are happening within a week of what I'll call the triggering event, which was the search warrant executed at the former president's residence. But just from that week, you saw these two very, very potentially, and in one situation, deadly encounters. Words… I've said this before, words are very, very important. Semantics count. And volume… and silence speaks volumes. And in this case, people are not speaking out as the former vice president you mentioned has as strongly as they should be. There's nobody I can imagine and no public leader, be they a politician or not, who wants the blood on their hands of law enforcement people who have been injured, maimed or their families injured and maimed because of the rhetoric. Because of somebody perceiving that somebody is telling me to go commit violence on their behalf. And in the two instances you mentioned, that's exactly what happened. A man showed up at an FBI office in Ohio, armed with the intent to commit an act of shooter, you know, to go kill agents and employees of the FBI in their own building. In Pennsylvania, there was a man who was spewing rhetoric for months beforehand. Anti-law-enforcement, anti-FBI. But this triggering event, again, the search warrant, what he heard or what he perceived was, I have to go and act on this right now. And his words speak for themselves. I'm willing to die killing FBI and law enforcement members. Just very, very, very scary.

SB: You refer to it as a triggering event, the search at… at Mar-a-Lago. Should the FBI have not been prepared for some of this? Knowing, after all, that in this hyper-partizan climate now they were taking part in something that was going on at the home of a former president, at the home of a man who seemed to be the leading contender for the Republicans in 2024 presidential election?

GE: You know, I believe they were prepared. The way it was executed was intended to be as low-key as possible. They came not with lights and sirens. They executed a legal warrant, as they do every day. I've participated in hundreds of search warrant operations. Yes, this one they certainly looked at and said it's going to be a media high-profile event. But they tried to keep it down and tried to protect privacy on both sides. I think what was not anticipated was the fact that, again, and the former president, his rhetoric and his lack of support or at least saying, hey, I'm not calling for violence. I'm certainly not happy, you know, with the fact that the search warrant was conducted. And that's… that's a separate statement. I don't know who would be. But the fact that he intended or at least is sending out a perception that he is okay with these violent rhetoric that's resulting from that, and these people who are believing or perceiving that that's what he wants, that's… that was not anticipated.

SB: What's it going to take to repair the damage this is doing to the FBI and its place in the U.S. justice system? How does this end?

GE: Well, I think what you saw from Vice… former Vice President Pence is the start. I imagine this… this is a nonpartisan issue. There is nobody, at least there shouldn't be anybody, who believes that violence should be committed on their behalf. And what I think has to happen is that bipartisan across the board to say we will have our differences. But as Americans, we never call for violence. If somebody is perceiving that's what I want or what we're saying, you're wrong.

SB: But if things didn't change after January 6th, why do you believe it can or will change now?

GE: Well, you had asked what do I think has to happen? Now, do I believe it will happen? I don't know. I am still optimistic. I believe in my country. I spent years supporting not only protecting the rights of our citizenry, but also supporting the constitution. I believe that people need to understand what's happening and speak out against it. That's my hope. But as we saw after the events of January 6th, it's not enough just to stay quiet. It's not enough not to speak out against it. But that has happened. And as you mentioned, and we saw the results of that, an unprecedented wave, an invasion of our capital. So while I remain optimistic, I'm watching very closely, as my former colleagues are, and hoping that people at least come to their senses.

SB: Thank you for your time.

GE: Thank you.

CH: Greg Ehrie is a former FBI agent who is now vice president of the Anti-Defamation League. We reached him in New York.

[ambient]

CH: Over 10,000 people have now died in British Columbia since 2016 because of overdoses, according to a recent coroner's report. Among the dead are dozens of children and young adults who have died this year alone. The scale is staggering, and it has renewed calls from advocates for a safer drug supply and more compassionate treatment. Jennifer Charlesworth is B.C.'s representative for children and youth.

[sc]

JENNIFER CHARLESWORTH: We are seeing an increase in the number of children and youth who have died compared to 2016, when the public health emergency was issued. For example, in 2021, we had 30 youth under the age of 19. That's two-and-a-half times what happened in the number of youth who passed in 2016. And with a 60 per cent increase in the number of young adults between the ages of 19 and 29 who passed in 2021 compared to 2016. So, a total of 324. So, we are seeing an increase in that overall population. But I think the other thing that's important to remember is that for every death, there are many, many overdose events that people experience.

STEPHEN QUINN: Um-hmm.

JC: And in our work, we receive these critical injury reports for children who are receiving services of some kind. Last year, we had 184 toxic drug poisonings of children under the age of 19. And many of those there were significant implications for these young people as a consequence of this toxic drug supply that we're dealing with that's getting worse every month. It's also important to remember that these are young people who are at the beginning of what could be such a promising life of thriving.

SQ: Um-hmm.

JC: So we're losing so much as a society when… when young people are not able to… to thrive. And so many… I think there's two things that I really want people to understand is that substance use doesn't happen in a vacuum. These are young people that in many cases, are experiencing emotional pain. And substances are a way to cope. So, not only do we have the kind of physical health considerations that you're talking about.

SQ: Um-hmm.

JC: But we've got to address the mental health considerations, too. So many of these young people they've got unresolved trauma, unresolved grief, mental health concerns like anxiety and depression that haven't been addressed. And it's a… it's a storm of things that are going on in their lives. And substances actually make sense for a young person because it gives them some relief from their pain. So we have to understand that, too. Kids will experiment. I can remember experimentation was very common among my teenage friends when I… many, many years ago. I'm sure you had the same experience.

SQ: Um-hmm.

JC: But now, it will kill you because of the toxicity.

SQ: Right.

JC: So we've got a very different dynamic, and we have to have a very different kind of response. So, I've been saying since 2018, since I started this job, we have to have harm reduction for kids as well. We have to have a safer supply. We have to be connecting with young people, recognizing where they're at, what's going on, and not shame them or stigmatize them or blame them or expect them to… to give up the substances before we've addressed their pain. So we need to have a safer supply for kids as well.

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CH: That was Jennifer Charlesworth, B.C.'s representative for children and youth. She spoke with CBC's Stephen Quinn this morning on The Early Edition.

[chillhop]

Guest: Curtis Altmiks

CH: At airports these days, it seems like you're more likely to fly off the handle than to fly off to whatever destination you're supposed to be flying off to. Multi-hour, and even multi-day delays are all too common. The only consolation -- you might assume -- is that you could get something for your trouble. Canadian air passenger regulations say that, as long as it's the airline's fault, after three hours, you're owed some money to make up for the time you've lost. But these days, a lot of claims are being denied. So passenger rights advocates, and passengers, are increasingly demanding that they get something in return. After a 10-hour delay, Curtis Altmiks was denied compensation by WestJet. So he's taking WestJet to court, to get what he says he's owed. We reached Mr. Altmiks in Edmonton.

SB: Curtis, you had a flight planned on June 6th to come to Toronto from Edmonton. What happened once you arrived at the airport?

CURTIS ALTMIKS: When we arrived at the airport, we were given notice that the flight was going to be late, running late, which we expected. It was typical. But what happened next was that the flight was cancelled, and… which we weren't expecting, and rebooked for the next day.

SB: So you were on the flight, and then when the flight was cancelled, you were taken off it. You were told that it was going to be rebooked. What were you thinking?

CA: At the time, because when we were taken off the flight, it was a… it was a 1 a.m. flight. It was a red- eye flight. We were told that there was nobody to assist us, that we'd have to call the.. the service desk at WestJet to rebook ourselves. So we were thinking what are we going to do now? We had plans for when we arrived in Toronto that were in question. We had three children with us at the time that we're asking why we're not going to grandma's place? What was happening? And it caused a lot of stress there.

SB: Now, Canadian airline regulations say that if there's a three-hour delay, passengers are owed compensation. You had a 10-hour delay. What happened when you tried to file a claim?

CA: I filed the claim and 28 days later, I received an email from WestJet saying that the claim was denied due to a safety concern. It was… it was a very form letter response. There was no additional information on it. It just… it just identified safety concern.

SB: What were you told when the flight was cancelled, when you were sitting there on the plane waiting for it to take off?

CA: The pilot told us it was because the first officer was too tired to fly.

SB: And what do you think of that?

CA: I don't… I don't agree that it was a safety concern. I agree… I believe it was a staffing issue. The pilot never mentioned that the first officer was over on his hours and could not fly. He just identified that he was too tired to fly. They were waiting for this… this first officer to come from his flight incoming from Vancouver. And there was no mention of it being that it was the safety issue, it was just that he was too tired. According to the CTA recently, they ruled that crew shortages were within the airline's control. And therefore, eligible for compensation.

SB: So you're not disputing the fact that the copilot was tired. You're just saying that that's the airline's fault? I just want to understand your argument.

CA: I'm… I'm not sure what the actual situation is. I'm… I won't concede the fact that the… the copilot may have had issues, but those issues are not not something… like, they're not my problem. That's a staffing issue.

SB: Now, you've brought WestJet to small claims court in Alberta, and you're trying to get the money that you believe you're owed under these regulations. I understand the case is now in mediation. How hopeful are you that this will get resolved?

CA: I believe it'll… it'll be resolved. We… I received the letter back for dispute notice yesterday and it was disputed at the end of the 20 days. So, we haven't… I haven't received the mediation timeline yet, but that's what the courts have told me. So I'm open to that opportunity.

SB: Curtis, what is your assessment of what's going on here? Why did the airline not want to give you the money that you believe you're entitled to?

CA: I honestly think it's a bit of a… bit of a game. And the fact that this keeps happening, it's just part of the cost of doing business. And if they can draw this out as long as possible or dissuade people from making the claims, they will save money. They're still making money because they're still moving people. A very small portion of us will actually push back that we're owed a level of service. And according to the law, we want to, you know, make sure that we're receiving that level of service.

SB: What's your experience of the way Canadian Airlines approach compensation compared to other airlines you've travelled on?

CA: We're way, way behind countries like Europe… or continents like Europe and their regulations. One example of that is in 2018, I was flying… I flew Edmonton to Schiphol, which is in Amsterdam. And I was sitting on the plane waiting to leave for Delhi in India. And the airspace over Pakistan was closed down due to military issues. This is with KLM, Air France. They pulled us off the plane. They said that the flight was going to be cancelled. They pulled us off the plane, put us in the lounge, fed us, provided drinks for us, until somebody could come and see us and rebook our flights. They rebook our flights, they sent us to a hotel, paid for food, everything until the next day and until we were able to make our flight, which had been changed to Bangalore instead. And without even claiming it, I didn't even realize it was a thing, they asked at the end of that, where would… how would you like your… your compensation to be paid to you? They offered 150% in airline credit or 100% to my bank account.

SB: Do you think, though, that the pandemic has… has really changed the circumstances in a way that gives you any sympathy for the airlines? I mean, people have been warned that if you're not going to be patient, maybe it's not the best time to travel because there's a lot of problems in the industry right now. Do you have any sympathy for the airlines on that front?

CA: I have some… I have some sympathy there. But we're all encountering these same things with pandemic and… and employee shortages and such like that. It's happening in my industry as well. And we also booked this well in advance back in March of this year. And, at that point in time, it was just starting to ramp up on these issues. The other thing behind it is… is I still get… and all along, I've been receiving emails from Air Canada and WestJet, both identifying the seat sales that they have and trying to drum up more business. If you're… if you're having concerns for capacity right now, why are you trying to increase your business past what you're able to perform at this point in time?

SB: Curtis, thank you.

CA: Thank you very much.

SB: Bye-bye.

CA: Bye.

CH: Curtis Altmiks recently experienced a 10-hour flight delay and was denied compensation. We reached him in Edmonton. WestJet has told CBC that it declines to comment on individual cases.

[ambient instrumental]

CH: They're holding a spot for Salman Rushdie. "The Satanic Verses" author is recovering after he was attacked with a knife while on stage at an event in New York State last Friday. Yesterday, the man who'd been about to speak with Mr Rushdie on that stage gave an interview to the BBC. Henry Reese is the founder of Pittsburgh City of Asylum -- an organization that provides homes for writers in exile. Mr Reese appeared badly bruised but said this when asked about his own injuries.

[sc]

HENRY REESE: I'm doing quite well. And I think our concern, you know, is for Salman. And I mean that both certainly for himself, but also for what he means in the world. And he's important to the world.

HOST: Are the values that Salman Rushdie represents to you all the more important in the wake of what's happened to him?

HR: It… there couldn't be anything more vivid in its materialization of our values. Having… our mission is to protect writers who are in sanctuary. And to see Salman Rushdie assaulted for his life is… is unimaginably… it strikes… it's hard to describe what it is to see that happen in front of you. The writers in our program were in the audience watching this.

HOST: Do you hope that one day you could return to the Chautauqua Institution and have the conversation that you were hoping to have with Salman Rushdie?

HR: That would be my ideal to do that and to see that happen and to not be in any way impeded from doing what we set out to do, to both show that these values will be defended and that they can be defended.

[/sc]

CH: That was Henry Reese, the founder of Pittsburgh City of Asylum. He had been about to moderate a conversation with Salman Rushdie when the author was attacked on stage last week.

[banjo]

CH: When you think of Calgary, you might think of the oil industry, the Stampede, or the vast, rolling prairie. You might not think of large boats -- as in, 10-metre-long steel boats in someone's backyard. But 79-year-old Rudy Holik would like you to think about the boat he built himself, which is in his backyard in Calgary. And which he's now looking to give it to someone who can take care of it.

[sc]

RUDY HOLIK: Yeah, the first one I built is about the same stage. And no wood inside, nothing. You know, and we built it with the Calgary Backyard Boat Builders Association.

TERRI TREMBATH: There was a Backyard Boat Builders Association?

RH: Yeah, it was about 26 boats being built back then in Calgary. This one is a smaller size.

TT: Why did you want to build this one?

RH: Well, I just wanted to do something. You know, oil and gas is up and down, right? And I just couldn't sit on my butt, you know? And Sailing was kind of in my mind for a very long time. So, I didn't have money to buy one. So I said when I saw the other people building, I thought can do it…. I can do it, too.

TT: And what's left to do on this if you wanted to sell it as a floating boat?

RH: Well, finishing o… I have some wood still in there, but most of it is gone. So, uh… yeah, look at the drawings. I still have the drawings. And, uh, I don't know, it would have to be somebody who knows what he's doing.

[/sc]

CH: That was Rudy Holik speaking with CBC Calgary's Terri Trembath. Mr. Holik is looking to give away the 10-metre-long steel boat he built, which is currently in his Calgary backyard.