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The Current Transcript for August 17, 2022

Host: Michelle Shephard

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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SOUNDCLIP

The international community has suspended much of the funding that was coming to Afghanistan, and that has had a detrimental impact on public health, on basic services and on poverty and hunger across the country.

MICHELLE SHEPHARD: It has been one year since the Taliban took control in Afghanistan. This morning, we continue our special series on the state of that country where humanitarian needs have become widespread. While aid has become scarce. In 30 minutes, we'll hear how some are desperately trying to fill the void. Then in an hour.

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This is like magic, you know, being so young, being like nine years old. You see that? You're like. Like, what is this? It was so intriguing. It just sparked an interest in me.

MS: Jamaican Canadian chef Adrian Forte was hooked the moment he stepped into his family's kitchen. This morning, we'll hear his conversation with Matt Galloway about how he's using that taste of home to educate diners about the African diaspora. But we begin this morning with a class action lawsuit and more allegations of sexual abuse by Catholic priests. Good morning. I'm Michelle Shepard. You're listening to The Current.

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Prominent cardinal, dozens of clergy members accused of sexual assault in class action lawsuit

Guests: Justin Wee, David Perlich, Evelyn Korkmaz

MS: Weeks after a papal visit, an apology on Canadian soil. More allegations of sexual misconduct and assault by Catholic clergy have surfaced. Yesterday, a class action lawsuit against the Archdiocese of Quebec named 88 members of the clergy, including Cardinal Mark Ouellet, the former bishop of the diocese, and a man considered to be a potential future pope. The lawsuit involves allegations from more than 100 people. Justin Wee is one of the lawyers representing the plaintiffs. Good morning, Justin.

JUSTIN WEE: Good morning.

MS: Could we start by just having you tell us what kind of abuses your clients are alleging took place?

JUSTIN WEE: She was intern at the Diocese of Quebec and she was 23 in 2008. So she started meeting Cardinal Ouellet. And during these meetings he was very friendly with her, touching her shoulders and hugging her and it was quite annoying and awkward. So she really tried to avoid him. And in 2010, so she was 25 and it was the last meeting. And at that time, he took her. Kissed her on her cheek and terrorist her back very close to her buttocks. And like all the victims, when there's having that kinds of abuses. She priest and she knew that he was a very powerful man because he was supposed to give or not after the internship if she could work at the diocese. So ten years later, in 2020, she was following information about sexual abuse and she realised that what she had was a sexual abuse. So she wrote to the diocese, but not mentioning the name of Cardinal. So she told her whole story and the diocese wrote her back saying, Well, you've been abused and you have to denounce to name the priest. And then she said that it was Cardinal Ouellet. So from that part investigation started by the pope and it's been one year and a half, there is no answer.

MS: Oh, and I just want to to make it clear to our listeners that Cardinal Ouellet has actually not been charged with any offences and this is not a criminal case. But at the time when the allegations took place, he was the archbishop. He was a high ranking in the church. What do you believe? Had she mentioned his name, the case would have turned out differently. The response would have been differently.

JUSTIN WEE: Well, this is difficult to know because the diocese had the first reaction when they didn't know the name of the archbishop. Well, they said, well, we are admitting and confirming you that it is a sexual misconduct. Right. And so then they invite her to wrote a letter to the pope and she did it. And then the pope started the investigation by naming someone, a priest, to do this investigation.

MS: And you're you're representing the plaintiff who's identified as as f the young, young woman who brought these accusations. There are more than 80 other members of the clergy who are accused. Can you tell us about some of the other cases.

JUSTIN WEE: We've reported a class action lawsuit for the authorisation that we get this spring. But two years ago, when we started with the proceedings, we had only five victims alleging have been abused by members of the clergy. Mm hmm. It's been two years later, we have 100 victims. And with, as you said, more than 80 people who've been accused in the civil proceedings in France, there is a public enquiry who said that probably it's an estimation of the public enquiry. In France, one abuser can do at least seven victims. So with 80, 80 person who have been alleging to commit these crimes, it's more than 500 victims who can come forward and ask compensation for the class action lawsuit.

MS: So do you anticipate others may come forward now that this is public, this this suit?

JUSTIN WEE: And it started from yesterday. The phone call is continuing and people are registering to the class action because they can see that people, not only them, have been abused from even 1950. He's one of the plaintiff, have been abused by someone and she was 14. And when she decided to reveal that to his father, he realised that two other brothers of his, the same family, have been abused by the same priest. So our plaintiff went to the diocese during the sixties and said that revealed what happened. When you realise that the priest have been changed to another city but in the same diocese. That's exactly the systemic problem that we're accusing the diocese of. They didn't took any actions so that the crimes would stop.

MS: What are you hoping will come of this lawsuit?

JUSTIN WEE: We're expecting answers. People told the diocese that there were problems and no one was listening. And if they don't want to admit what happened before, well, the truth will be revealed during a trial.

MS: Justin, I appreciate you coming on the show this morning. Thank you very much for joining me.

JUSTIN WEE: Thank you very much.

MS: Justin, we is one of the lawyers representing the plaintiffs in the class action lawsuit against the Archdiocese of Quebec. The diocese is not commenting on the allegations. Cardinal Mark Ouellet is a prominent figure in the Roman Catholic Church. In 2013, he spoke to the CBC about his years of work to end sexual abuse in the church.

SOUNDCLIP

I remember being part of the commission, you know, for prevention of those of those facts when the crisis of Mount Cashel in Newfoundland. And so the zero tolerance policy started in the in the early nineties in Canada. Canada was ahead of the times. So but we have learnt of from our mistakes.

MS: Now, as we know, Cardinal Willette finds himself accused of sexual misconduct. David Perlich is the CBC's Vatican analyst. Good morning, David.

DAVID PERLICH: Good morning.

MS: Can you tell me how significant it is that cardinal that has been named in this civil suit, civil class action suit?

DAVID PERLICH: Of course, on the human individual level, this is deeply significant for the individuals who brought forward the lawsuit and the accused in the Catholic Church. This is deeply significant because of the profile of Cardinal Law, as you mentioned in the Canadian church. This will now call into question transparency and accountability. Who knew what when in in the Canadian Catholic Church. But in the in the global church, Cardinal Ouellet is incredibly well known and is seen as very close to Pope Francis, very much in line with the church. He's the head of the custody of bishops. So for about 12 years now, he's run the office in the Vatican that chooses Catholic bishops all over the world. So he he's incredibly well known around the world and an incredibly well known member of the clergy in the Catholic Church. Now, of course, as of a few minutes ago, there were no official statements yet from the Vatican on. But this is not entirely out of character. They tend to be quite slow to respond officially to these kind of accusations. But what's deeply significant here is this is a real test for the Vatican. Can they be transparent and accountable in particularly in light of the profile of Cardinal Ouellet and the role that he has in the church?

MS: Yeah, he must be one of the highest ranking members of the church to be directly accused of misconduct himself.

DAVID PERLICH: It's not unheard of. The former cardinal of Washington, Theodore McCarrick, was investigated and convicted for sexual assault against adults and minors and was eventually laicised. He's no longer a cardinal and though there were accusations in Australia as well, but those were overturned by a supreme higher court. So it's not uncommon that bishops and and cardinals and priests around the world are face to face accusations.

MS: Now, again, we know these are just allegations at this point, not proven. But this is the first time that he's been named in any legal proceedings. What what impact do you think this will have on his path to becoming pope?

DAVID PERLICH: So, of course, there are no such thing as parties or candidates for pope. That's not the way the Vatican works. It's an election done. All the cardinals under the age of 80 gather when a pope either resigns or passes away and they vote. So think of it more as a loose collection of like minded individuals within that group of cardinals. When you face an accusation such as this. There's a cloud, as you say. As you said earlier, it's an accusation and it doesn't face criminal charges. But the cloud of unknowing that will now hang over this as people begin to process this will will no doubt make it deeply, deeply difficult for some people to think of of voting for him in any future conclaves.

MS: We just have a couple of minutes left here, David, but I'm wondering if you can put into context for us this class action suit, because there's there's many others against clergy. What impact do you think this one will have on the church in general?

DAVID PERLICH: I think, as I mentioned earlier, this is going because of the profile of of cardinal let and in the global Catholic Church, this this will be seen as a measure of accountability and transparency. The Vatican has some new regulations, new canon law that they put into place in 2019 for accountability. And this will be a test of that mechanism to see if they actually follow through the innumerable accusations, lawsuits, civil actions, criminal court actions around the world have had a profound and deep, deep. It's been an incredibly difficult time for the church because there are so many accusations out there. So this is an incredibly high profile situation. It will be added to the pile of innumerable other accusations and convictions within the church, the challenges the church has faced.

MS: And you said that often the response comes a bit later. Do you expect to hear anything today, later today?

DAVID PERLICH: I'm not sure if I'd expect today. I think over the course of the next few days, it's August in Italy. Things tend to happen slower there. When the church does make statements on such cases as this, they tend to be very short and and very sort of neutral statements. But I do. The church will have to respond, given the profile that Cardinal Law has in the Vatican government and the curial government and the role that he has played. They will have to respond at some point to this. And the fact, as we heard in your earlier interview, that there is somebody we are told that there is somebody who has conducted or been looking at this case in the Vatican. There will have to be some follow through on that at some point.

MS: David, thanks so much for joining us today.

DAVID PERLICH: It's my pleasure.

MS: David Perlich is CBC's Vatican analyst. We reached him today in Calgary. Now I'd like to bring in Evelyne Korkmaz. She is a founding member of the international organisation Ending Clergy of Abuse, as well as a founding member of Ex Canada Advocates for Clergy Trauma Survivors in Canada. And she's a survivor of sexual abuse, which took place when she was just ten years old and attending St Anne's residential school. Evelyn, thank you so much for joining me.

EVELYNE KORKMAZ: Thank you.

MS: What went through your mind when you heard about this lawsuit yesterday and the scope of the alleged abuse?

EVELYNE KORKMAZ: Well, when the pope came to Canada to apologise to the indigenous people, it was obvious that he knew of the allegations against Mark. All that before he came. And he greeted him in Quebec City and said nothing. In a way it's surprising. And in another way it's not. You know, they they're under the cloak of secrecy and everything is done behind closed doors. So. You know, it's it's just amazing. It also shows us that, you know, how high up the clergy child sex abuse allegations, corruption and secrecy reach in the Catholic Church hierarchy?

MS: You know, it was it was interesting there when David when I asked David, you know, if this was one of the highest ranking members, and he said quite quickly, well, no, there's there's quite a few others. Evelyn, you also met with Pope Francis when he was in Canada. How would you describe that meeting and his efforts to bring justice to survivors of sexual abuse by the church? I mean, you just said that you're you're surprised now that he would have known these allegations and not said anything. But what was your response at the time when you met him?

EVELYNE KORKMAZ: Well, as as a survivor, you can't give up on hope. You must have hope to continue to survive. But unfortunately, the Catholic Church likes to sweep all these allegations under the carpet. And, you know. Hope that they, you know, go away or. It's not talk news anymore, you know. Right. But, you know, I would like to say that, you know, are the are the dioceses donations being spent appropriately and with the knowledge and approval of their congregation? Like, do they know that the Catholic Church is spending their donations on the defence of these allegations? You know. Yeah. And would they continue to donate if they knew where this money was going?

MS: You know, it's a question that I remember was was raised during the the papal visit and in one to ask. Absolutely. With this individual case, with cardinal rule that the allegations would have taken place. What was alleged to have happened would have taken place between 2008 and 2010. Often in these cases, we're talking about, you know, quite historical cases. But in that time period, there was a lot of scrutiny on the church for sexual abuse. And as we heard Cardinal that said himself that they had zero tolerance. Again, what was your reaction to that? How surprised were you by this report yesterday and this suit?

EVELYNE KORKMAZ: Like I said, I was surprised, but not overly surprised. I find the Catholic Church, the Vatican. It's just riddled with predators. It's time they clean house. Then the church needs to work with survivors to bring these predators to justice. Work with us, not against us.

MS: And you are part of founding member of two organisations that do this type of advocacy. Have you ever had that type of outreach before? That you've been asked to help and be part of the the solution here?

EVELYNE KORKMAZ: No. Most of my life I tried to survive. It was you know, it was it's very traumatic for a survivor to go through this. You know, it can put you on the right road or the wrong road. It's a very slippery slope. I've lost a lot of. Residential school survivors to suicide addictions. You know, I'm one of the fortunate ones that. You know, ended up on the right path. And I've devoted my life to helping other survivors. Because like I said, it's a very slippery slope and. There was no one there for me, so I would like to be there for others.

MS: It must be so difficult every time new allegations arise.

EVELYNE KORKMAZ: Yes.

MS: Well, I really appreciate you joining me today. I will. And thanks.

EVELYNE KORKMAZ: Thank you for having me.

MS: Evelyn Korkmaz is a St Anne's residential school survivor and a founding member of the international group Ending Clergy Abuse. If you're listening and feel in need of support, Quebec's sexual violence helpline is available at 1 888 933 9007, and the National Indian Residential School Crisis Line is at 1 866 925 4419. The CBC News is next. Then we continue our special series, Afghanistan A Year under the Taliban. This morning, the Struggle to Secure Humanitarian Aid. I'm Michel Shephard and you're listening to The Current.

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The humanitarian crisis in Afghanistan, and efforts to resettle Afghans in Canada

Guests: Samira Sayed Rahman, Amanda Moddejonge

MS: Hello. I'm Michelle Shephard and you're listening to The Current.

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MS: Still to come, Chef Adrien Forte cooks up some Jamaican porridge, and he shares how food connects him to his personal history and the greater African diaspora. But first, the desperate challenge to secure humanitarian aid in Afghanistan.

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SOUNDCLIP

REPORTER 1: The cries of starving babies, the faces of worried parents. This is what's happening in hospitals across Afghanistan.

REPORTER 2: A nurse at a clinic in Herat run by Doctors Without Borders, measures Barzani's arm. If the band goes red, she's severely malnourished.

REPORTER 3: Tonight, Afghanistan is in crisis. Aid agencies like UNICEF, the only source of food for millions.

MS: It's been an unforgiving year for millions of Afghans. The humanitarian crisis unfolding over the last 12 months has worsened an already difficult living situation. Over 24 million people are in desperate need of assistance, and health care facilities are closing down. The country is edging closer to what the United Nations describes as universal poverty. Sameera Sayed Rahman is a humanitarian worker with the International Rescue Committee. We reached her in the Afghan capital, Kabul. Samira, hello.

SAMIRA SAYED RAHMAN: Hello, Michelle.

MS: Can you describe what the last 12 months have been for you and for like for you and your capacity as an aid worker trying to respond to the situation there?

SAMIRA SAYED RAHMAN: With each week that goes by, more and more Afghans are forced to resort to horrific means to survive. Since last August, the number of people that have had to resort to negative coping measures by the resort is skipping meals, taking on debt, pulling children out of school, and including extreme measures such as selling daughters into marriage or selling organs has increased. Poverty skyrocketed. This is a country that was one of the poorest countries on the planet prior to August 15th. And since the Taliban authorities have taken power, the international community has suspended much of the funding that was coming to Afghanistan, and that has had a detrimental effect on public health, on basic services and on poverty and hunger across the country.

MS: And I'm sure every day you have a variety of encounters that you'll never forget. Are there any specific ones that you can tell us about? Just to bring home the scope of the crisis there.

SAMIRA SAYED RAHMAN: Last week I was in Nangarhar province in the east. I was visiting some of these economic recovery programmes. It was here where I met a woman who had been taught to make pickles through one of our programmes in the areas. And we went and interviewed her and her family and visited her home. She lived in a one room mud structure with six of her children. She was saying that if she is able to get food on the table, it is because she's picking from the garbage. And if she can get enough of the heroin through it all, she brings it home for her six children. Otherwise go days without eating. Through this programme she has started to make some pickles and she's selling that. And slowly she's being able to bring some income in for her family. But this is not the story of just one woman. This is the story of millions of Afghans across the country. And that situation seems to be worsening for them on a daily basis.

MS: And you mentioned the, of course, important issue about international aid and how that has helped create this disaster. What else has triggered the humanitarian situation to spiral down to this level?

SAMIRA SAYED RAHMAN: One of the major reasons behind the worsening humanitarian crisis is the worsening economy. And the economy is failing as a result of international sanctions that have been put in place. Policies that have been put in place by donors in an effort to isolate the Taliban have punished the Afghan people. We are punishing 38 million people just because a few hundred are in power. This economic policies by the international community have led to a banking sector collapse. It has led to Afghans being unable to, even if they have income, take out money from the banks. The bank notes that exist in the country are falling apart. Many suppliers and stores will not accept them. Unemployment is at an all time high. All of this is playing a role in worsening the humanitarian crisis.

MS: Does the Taliban have the capability to get this under control? And I guess that's going to involve some sort of diplomacy if if the cause is, as you're saying, mainly external in terms of the sanctions. But what about the governing body? What what can the Taliban do? And is what's in their capacity?

SAMIRA SAYED RAHMAN: Well, one thing we need to remember is that the Afghan government and the Afghan during the time of the republic was over 70% dependent on foreign aid. Much of the gains that we have seen over the course of the 21 years, which we are at risk of losing for a direct result of foreign aid that was coming into the country right now. One example of the impacts of such suspensions is when we look at the health sector. Public health was naturally financed by the international community with suspensions and aid. As of August 15th, we are seeing hospitals unable to pay their staff. Hospitals being unable to pay their doctors. Having issues with medicine. Having issues with equipment. A few months ago, I've been visiting hospitals across the south and southeast. And you see... You see three babies in a single incubator. You see nurses who tell you that they haven't been paid in months. The fact that the health sector has an entirely collapsed is a result of the goodwill of the nurses and doctors who continue to work for free.

MS: Is this this sentiment shared on the street? Do Afghans feel that they've been abandoned by the international community? Is there? Is there an understanding that so many of these waves are coming from outside?

SAMIRA SAYED RAHMAN: That is exactly what is out. When you speak to people in the streets, I've been travelling across the country over the course of the last six, seven months, and everywhere I go, I hear from people that, you know, they were made dependent on this aid, they're made dependent on these mechanisms, and suddenly they've had factories back. When you've had that pull back, along with these rights, violating policies that the de facto authorities have introduced, it leads to a situation where they feel absolutely hopeless.

MS: Right. And the U.N. is, as we mentioned, off the top, the U.N. has said that Afghanistan is going in the direction of a universal poverty. I mean, to many people, these are just, you know, words. What does what does that mean and what does that look like?

SAMIRA SAYED RAHMAN: Well, what that looks like in comparison to what I was existing in the country in the past, is on August 15, we had 14 million Afghans in need of humanitarian assistance. That number within six months had nearly doubled to 24 million. Five years ago, 53% of the country was living under the poverty line. Today, that number has increased to 97% of people living under the poverty line. The Afghan people are not only stuck in the midst of a political crisis, they are also facing a major humanitarian crisis fuelled by an economic crisis. But at the same time, you have natural disasters this past year. Just two months ago, we had one of the worst earthquakes in the history of this country. We have had flooding. Just today, I was driving back from Bamiyan province and it took me eight hours instead of three hours that it's supposed to take because there was flash floods on the way and infrastructure is breaking down and infrastructure is not being maintained. And this is only going to worsen the situation across the country.

MS: And you are Canadian with roots in Afghanistan. You've lived there for for more than seven years. What do you think about Canada's foreign policy on Afghanistan? What more needs to be done?

SAMIRA SAYED RAHMAN: I've been in Afghanistan for the last seven years and I've worked in a range of capacities. One of the most important roles that the Canadian aid supported in Afghanistan was women led organisations, and our feminist first foreign policy was quite impactful in Afghanistan. Prior to August 15, we saw a lot of Canadian it going to small women led civil society organisations. Women let in jobs that were vital to creating the civil society space that allowed for the gains of the last 21 years. They were vital for providing assistance to the most vulnerable in this country, which are women and girls in the most remote parts of the country. What we are seeing since August 15 is a suspension of that money. What we are seeing is the Canadian government fail on its policies to support the women that they have been supporting for the last 21 years.

MS: And why? What is the response you're getting in terms of this change in policy?

SAMIRA SAYED RAHMAN: Well, this change in policy has to do with the current government that is in power. Like I mentioned, you know, are we going to allow for 38 million people to be suffering just because a few hundred are in power? The Canadian government has stricter policies in place, engaging with the de facto authorities than many other countries right now. Just this week, World Vision had food shipments that were vitally needed here on the grounds cancelled as a result of the restrictions that are in place when it comes to foreign aid in Canada.

MS: And we know after the fall of Kabul, there was a mass exodus of many aid workers and international groups. Can you give us a scope, Sameera, of who the primary NGOs still on the ground are trying to provide assistance?

SAMIRA SAYED RAHMAN: Most of the international NGOs are here. The International Rescue Committee had 20 staff back in August 15, 2021. That number has increased, over 7000, of which over 40% are women. And this is a result of the incredible humanitarian need that exists on the ground. But at the same time, it is local NGOs, local CSOs and primarily women led organisations that are suffering and are having a very difficult time operating. A recent report that we commissioned showcased that 77% of women led organisations in Afghanistan have lost their funding as of August 15th last year. These organisations are vital for creating civil society space. They are vital for providing services and humanitarian aid in some of the most remote parts of this country.

MS: And just last before we go, what do you want, Canada and the world to understand about what needs to happen for the people of Afghanistan?

SAMIRA SAYED RAHMAN: What the people of Afghanistan need right now, especially the women of this country, is to feel that they are not left behind. The women of this country need the support of the international community. But at the same time, they also need the foreign aid and the humanitarian assistance. They need the ability to create economic opportunities for themselves. This is a country that is in the midst of multiple, multiple crises. And we cannot continue to cripple the economy.

MS: Samira, I really appreciate your time and for you joining us here today.

SAMIRA SAYED RAHMAN: Thank you very much.

MS: Samira Sayeed Rahman is a humanitarian worker with the International Rescue Committee. We reached her in Kabul. Canadian government officials say they remain deeply concerned about the situation in the country for this year. Ottawa has committed 143 million in humanitarian assistance for Afghanistan and neighbouring countries, and officials have said they are looking to get more aid in. Canada has also set a goal to resettle 40,000 Afghans under a special immigration programme. But according to the Immigration Minister Sean Fraser, it's been a challenge bringing them here. Here he is speaking on as it happens Monday night.

SOUNDCLIP

Unlike other refugee resettlement initiatives, we don't have access to these people with a presence on the ground. And it's not ordinary for a country to take tens of thousands of people in a single year or to resettle them in their country. So we're doing as much as we can as quickly as we can, despite the challenging nature of these circumstances.

MS: But critics argue that much more needs to be done, that the programme is too restrictive, the rollout too slow, and it's leaving vulnerable people behind. Amanda Moddejonge is a veteran of the Canadian Armed Forces. She spent the last year advocating for the resettlement of Afghans who worked with the Canadian government. Amanda, hello.

AMANDA MODDEJONGE: Hi. How are you?

MS: Good, thanks. Tell me what this year has been like for you trying to get as many Afghans to safety as you can.

AMANDA MODDEJONGE: It's been very frustrating. I've heard more than one Afghan veteran make mention of the mental health issues that this is causing for people who served in that country. And I've witnessed it myself. This has two parts. And from what I've seen, the biggest part comes from the fact that this is happening not to Afghans, but to their friends and colleagues, that in many cases are directly responsible for the survival of that Canadian vet in that environment. The second part is how the government of Canada is effectively abandoning soldiers of the Canadian Armed Forces, employees of our government, and Afghans that believed in our mission so strongly that they stepped up and did the things necessary in that society to support our mission in their country.

MS: What exactly were these people doing for the Canadian government or the armed forces?

AMANDA MODDEJONGE: A lot of different things that they did. So the ones that I focus on predominantly are the interpreters, the locally engaged contractors of the Department of National Defence and the Embassy staff of the Government of Canada. But there was an awful lot of people, like I said, they just stepped up and did the things that were necessary in that society to support. Our mission in their country. They believed in us that strongly that they'd put out their neck to ensure that we were successful.

MS: What kind of support have you been able to give them so far in helping them?

AMANDA MODDEJONGE: There's a lot of different types of support that I've been able to give. I am one of the people that was responsible for the creation and implementation of the safehouse network that was developed to help provide shelter and security for those that were promised support by the Canadian government. And this was through the special immigration programme for Afghans who assisted the Government of Canada. I helped identify them. They're the ones that were most at need and helped organise their move into this network. And then I've also helped people apply for these measures. But most of all, I've been advocating directly for individuals with the Government of Canada. And a big part of this has been educating members of Parliament what the realities of the situation is with regards to the application of the process and what the government's actually doing.

MS: Where's the gap there? What is the difference between what they say should be happening and what's actually happening on the ground?

AMANDA MODDEJONGE: Well, one of the things that I keep hearing about is this 40,000 number. And that's great. I understand that we've brought 17,000 people to Canada, give or take. But when you really look at it, there's been 7300 people come to Canada under the special immigration programme for Afghans who assisted the Government of Canada in the last year. In addition to that, there's been more than 10,000 that have arrived under the humanitarian programme from December of last year to last Friday. And of this, we've only been able to identify about 2300 interpreters and their family members.

MS: Why is it why is this the issue? I mean, I know that's a big question. And I you know, I think we were talking earlier and I disclosed my bias. I also have been working a little bit in a much smaller way than you have in advocating for Afghan journalists or those who help Canadian journalists to come here. And I share your frustration. It's it's been it's been a real struggle, understanding how hard it is, obviously, but it's been a real struggle. What are some of the obstacles that you're facing? Why do you think it's been so hard?

AMANDA MODDEJONGE: Because the government's looking at this as a numbers game, whereas people like you and me are looking at it from the human side. So I have literally a stack of what are nicely called Taliban threat letters. Some people call these night letters. What they are, in essence, is death warrants. These are actual warrants for people that state. The only reason that they're in harms way is because of their service to the allied forces.

MS: And tell me a little bit more about that as as these those who worked with Canadian Forces. Wait, what type of threats are they facing? What is their life look like? And if you have any specific examples, please feel free to tell that.

AMANDA MODDEJONGE: Well, the Hazaras that were supportive of our mission have been actively targeted by the Taliban. We know this from the attacks directly on on their mosques. I'm working directly with a number of Hazaras. I can tell you of heartbreaking stories that I don't know are even fit for for your show. Just last week, I had been working with a group and helped a man who worked with the Canadian Special Forces in Afghanistan leave his home to protect his five marrying age daughters because they were going to be forcibly married to members of the Taliban in retaliation for his service to Canada. But of all of these individual stories, I can tell you, I'd really like to tell you most about the Afghan that was responsible for getting food onto the base that housed the Special Forces soldiers. And when I describe him, I specifically state that he's living in a closet. He's well-educated. He's well-spoken and incredibly kind. But our government, after benefiting from his services, left him behind to face the wrath of the current ruling regime. Now, remember, this is the guy that was responsible for feeding our soldiers. Now, every member of his family has been allowed safe passage to Canada but him. So he's facing the Taliban alone after literally feeding our troops.

MS: Amanda, do you think that this this disappointment, these these missed cases will have wider implications in terms of other missions that Canadian forces go on, in terms of, you know, ensuring the help of those who are in the country.

AMANDA MODDEJONGE: It's really funny that you ask me this because I was speaking to a friend this morning and we were discussing the issues in Afghanistan. He is an Afghan, but he he was actually an officer. And he said to me, and I'm actually going to quote him here, he said, If you want to avoid radicalisation, do the things necessary, necessary to build loyalty. Right. So he actually went on to explain that our abandonment of the embassy staff will be exploited going forward. So Canada will pay a price and our foreign missions will pay a price.

MS: Amanda, how hopeful are you that the Afghans that you're in contact with will get here? And at this point, what are what are you telling them?

AMANDA MODDEJONGE: I tell them every day to not lose hope, because as long as you have hope, you have something to hold on to. Now, with that, I really want to tell you about a particular email that I got. And it was for Canada Day. My friend in the closet, he reached out to me directly and it was literally the most heartbreaking note I have ever read in my entire life. So it said those who worked with Canada's armed forces were and are disposable and should be discarded.

MS: How does that make you feel as a member of Canadian Armed Forces yourself?

AMANDA MODDEJONGE: Well, I'm a veteran who's had to fight my government for support. And this is actually important because one of the people I've been working with, actually, and I should say working with one of the people that I know that's been supporting one particular Afghan. His name is Brock. And Brock lost a leg in Afghanistan. And a couple of years ago, he got up in front of Justin Trudeau and he asked him a question and the direct response that he got when he was asking about veterans and veterans issues and why the government was fighting veterans in court was they're asking for more than we're able to give right now. So right now I'm fighting for other veterans, and those are the ones that have been left behind in Afghanistan because they're being treated the same way as the rest of us in Canada are treated routinely. So the ones in Afghanistan can't speak for themselves. My service was short and I'm a strong supporter. I'm sorry. I'm strongly supported by veterans and veterans like Brock. Some of those have had many decades of service. And while I'm supporting the Afghans directly, I'm indirectly supporting the Afghan vets by helping their friends and their colleagues get the assistance that they critically need so they can just survive.

MS: Appreciate you for joining us today and the work you're doing there, Amanda. Thank you.

AMANDA MODDEJONGE: Anytime. Thank you.

MS: Amanda Moddejonge is a veteran of the Canadian Armed Forces. We reached her in Thunder Bay, Ontario. Our special series on Afghanistan, a year after the Taliban regained control will continue tomorrow. Journalist Graeme Smith spent much of his career in Afghanistan from working as a foreign correspondent for the Globe and Mail to serving as a political affairs officer for the United Nations. Watching last year's events made him reflect on what it was like the first time he set foot in the country. He spoke to Matt Galloway about this in September.

SOUNDCLIP

GRAEME SMITH: You know, you shouldn't believe what you read in newspapers all the time, because I see this as someone who used to write for newspapers. You know, I arrived in the country with a sheaf of printouts from, you know, newspapers and think tanks. And I remember the first paragraph of a Washington Post's front page story about, you know, the new Afghanistan said that it was going through an exercise in post-war democracy, that the fighting was over, the Taliban were gone. And I was stepping onto the tarmac in Kabul to cover the 2005 parliamentary elections. And, you know, I just I took seriously that Western narrative and I thought, okay, this is a democracy. These are good elected leaders. And I didn't think I would be in Afghanistan for very long. I thought it was a boring story. Everything was finished. But of course, it was not finished. And Canadians started dying there in big numbers. And so it sort of took over my life. I ended up spending most of my professional career here.

MS: Graeme Smith's full conversation with Matt Galloway tomorrow on the programme. And coming up after your regional update, a cooking and history lesson from chef Adrien Forte. Plus, a little music to ease you into your day. I'm Michelle Shephard and you're listening to The Current.

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Chef Adrian Forte shares a taste of home

Guest: Adrian Forte

MS: I'm Michel Sheppard, and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

We have a space French toast with a orange peel infused fried chicken. And then it's finish with a scotch bonnet, rosehip and ginger syrup, the bison and oxtail. She was done by myself, served with white bean, [unintelligible] mushrooms, heirloom charts and Christmas shots on top. Today I have here for you a beer, beer and bourbon. Pork side rib accompanied by a Caribbean coleslaw that's done with purple and green cabbage, shaved coconut. And then it's my grandma's potato salad done with a whole lot of secret seasoning.

MS: This next conversation is going to make you hungry. We just heard from Adrien Forte from season eight of Top Chef Canada with some fine Jamaican dining. Adrian is a restaurateur, a culinary consultant and a cookbook writer. His new book is called Yawd: Modern Afro-Caribbean Recipes. He spoke with Matt Galloway earlier this year, and here is their conversation.

SOUNDCLIP

MATT GALLOWAY: Adrian, good morning.

ADRIAN FORTE: Good morning.

MG: Thanks for being here. Thanks for having me. We're in like the kitchenette in some part of the CBC building that I've never been to before.

ADRIAN FORTE: Neither. Right.

MG: But we're here because you're going to cook. You're going to make us some food.

ADRIAN FORTE: Yeah.

MG: Before you do that, tell me about the food you remember growing up with. I mean, in the book, you write that maybe that's like your first memory in some ways and kind of the biggest memories are of the food that was around you.

ADRIAN FORTE: So for me, everything centred around food, you know? I like to think food as the culinary conduit that brings us together. And that's why I love doing what I do. Bringing people together, get them to learn about my culture and my background and get them to know me. One of my favourite things to make is porridge. Growing up in Jamaica. One of the first things I learnt how to make was porridge because it was so easy. My mother was a librarian so she'd go to school before I would and then I'd have to fend for myself in the kitchen. So that's kind of how I hold my skills is starting out making simple dishes like this.

MG: What was- who is doing most of the cooking in your house? And like whether it's family, like immediate family or deep family, who is everybody?

ADRIAN FORTE: Kitchen everybody. So my grandmother had seven kids and then all of their kids had kids. So we had a big house full of people. It was very competitive. Everyone cooked every night. Someone else was making dinner whether they'd be my uncles or my aunts. And that's kind of how we got into cooking, is that my grandmother made sure everyone in the family knew how to cook, but she made made sure the males knew how to cook because she always said, you gotta be able to cook because then, you know, you're more available as a husband.

MG: So it's good advice. Yeah. So everybody's in the kitchen all at the same time. I mean, what does it sound like in the kitchen?

ADRIAN FORTE: It's a little crazy. We all like she's the matriarch of the family, so we're all watching our grandmother cook and learning. So my other cousins didn't really gravitate towards it. They were just there because they want to eat or they want to pick stuff out of the pot when she wasn't looking. But me, I was just very amazed at how she would just take these simple, humble ingredients and transform them. So that's what really sparked it for me. I was like, this is like magic, you know, being so young, being like nine years old, you see that you're like like, what is this? It was so intriguing. It just sparked an interest in me.

MG: Music playing at the same time.

ADRIAN FORTE: Of course you have to, you know, you've got the Bob Marley going sometimes, the Peter Tosh, you know.

MG: So, I mean, I think of like my family, aunts, uncles, grandparents and the smells of what it's like that takes me back to that place, right? Like, what did it smell like in the kitchen?

ADRIAN FORTE: Oh, man. The cloves and all these warm spices, sometimes scotch about it. Our familym we love spicy food. It's a so aromatic and it just. It just takes you places. Yeah, like, we weren't, like, rich. We weren't born even upper middle class, so all we had was us and just food and, like, memories.

MG: And this was where?

ADRIAN FORTE: In Jamaica. In Kingston. Yeah. So we lived in Corbel Gardens.

MG: And I mean, food is just such a thing. Like, it's. It's a thing that opens the door for people. It brings people in, creates community. This is something that you try and perpetuate in the work that you're doing now.

ADRIAN FORTE: 100%. I always try to use my food in my creations as a way to educate people. I firmly believe that if you can consume someone's culture, you become more understanding of their struggle. So it's always, I think for me, where everywhere I go in the world, whether it's Miami, New York, L.A., Turks and Caicos, I always try to push Afro-Caribbean cuisine and just educate people. I think it's important.

MG: So porridge is a big thing.

ADRIAN FORTE: Porridge is a huge thing.

MG: So people eat porridge all over the world. But I mean, in Jamaica, what is porridge?

ADRIAN FORTE: In Jamaica, porridge is sweet, it's savoury, it's whatever you want it to be. You know, the base of most porters are use with cornmeal, ground cornmeal. One of my favourite porridges is honey cornmemal but I absolutely love cornmeal. So the first part is I learnt how to make and I had my own little spin on it with the pineapple juice. It's not traditional, but it's my take on it. It was kind of like messing around with ingredients and what was available to me. But you can do everything from carrot porridge, plantain porridge. There's so many different types of porters. You could do peanut porridge as big in Jamaica. You'd have the vendors walking around with these like 64 litre gallon pots.

MG: Tell me more about this.

ADRIAN FORTE: Yeah. So you have you have vendors in Jamaica that sell porridge like anywhere on the island. You go around and they have like these massive 64 litre pots and they're pushing it on basically a trolley. And at the base of the pot is a portable burner. And what's drilled to that is a propane tank.

MG: So it's like this makeshift food stall.

ADRIAN FORTE: Right. And they're going around pushing this trolley full of porridge and they do a really high pour where they take the ladle and they pour it really high like a cocktail. So this porridge is dripping into the Styrofoam container very, very high. And then they hand it to you. It's a whole show. So that's kind of where my first excitement with putting on a show and I came from a seeing these people do things like that, like see these vendors doing that or go into like a jerk pit. And Jamaicans love to put on a show, right? So that's it's just embedded in my DNA. But that was my first experience, going to go get porridge and seeing this guy just pour so high. And I'm like, it's like magic, all right? It doesn't mess. Not a drop. And he puts it on his head and he dances and takes your money and hands it to you. And you're like, Well, how does he do that?

MG: The porridge vendor.

ADRIAN FORTE: Yeah, and they're calling for people. They're trying to get people's attention.

ADRIAN FORTE: MAN They just run around. They're just walking on the street. Basically, you're inside your house and they're coming down the street yelling, Porridge, porridge. People come outside and you know. So it was interesting. Life in Jamaica as a teenager was very, very interesting. And, you know, it gave me a lot of perspective moving to Canada when I was a teenager. And it just made me appreciate things more and appreciate Canada as a whole.

MG: Okay, so let's talk about that while you make me some porridge because I'm like hungry now, okay. Here, like things are.

ADRIAN FORTE: Belly's grumbling. Mine, too. All right. So we have some coconut milk, some pineapple juice, some cornmeal, some condensed, sweetened, condensed milk, cinnamon, vanilla, allspice, nutmeg, and a little bit of salt.

MG: And this is your non-traditional kind of spin on the pooridge.

ADRIAN FORTE: Yes. I like to take traditional recipes and add my spin to it. And I always tell people, use the recipes as a guideline. You know, everyone has different preferences, whether it be how you like your eggs, how you like your steak. We all like what we like. So I always tell people, if you want to use regular milk, you can. If you want to use almond milk, you can. It's your personal preference. But this is what I like and that's what these recipes are. It's the things that I like to eat.

MG: Right. Okay. So how do you start?

ADRIAN FORTE: All right. So we're going to get. Our coconut milk in first.

MG: Then we have this like steam powered induction burner here. So it's not the fancy high powered kitchen.

ADRIAN FORTE: All of this, if I could figure out how to... I can cook anywhere. I can literally cook anywhere. Matt, some cinnamon is going to add a little bit of cinnamon and.

MG: There's like a little pinch or something.

ADRIAN FORTE: That's a little pinch. Nothing too crazy. It's all allspice and some ground nutmeg. We're not making jerk, but all spice is the king of spices. It's similar to the Mediterranean Ras el Hanout which is like the head of the spice. For caribbean people, that's what all spices.

MG: All spices and everything.

ADRIAN FORTE: And everything. Yeah, a little bit of salt. Oh. And that was going to crack that up. I hope I figure this out. All right. And it was going to mix all that in together and whisk that up. I get all my spices in there. Get that formulated, incorporated.

MG: Okay. I mean, the thing that you talk about in the book is that porridge is like this blank canvas, right? That you can really kind of just take it and make it.

ADRIAN FORTE: You can take it in any direction you want. So we're just going to add our pineapple juice and just continue to stir, get everything nice and emulsified.

MG: Tell me about moving to Canada. When did you move here?

ADRIAN FORTE: So I moved to Canada when I was 15 years old. I was living in Jamaica. My mom had passed at the time and my dad wanted a better life for me. So, you know, he brought me here. I went to high school in Ajax High School in Durham. Big football.

MG: Just outside of Toronto.

ADRIAN FORTE: Just outside of Toronto. Big football guy. And, you know, I thought football is going to be my future. I was playing football. I was loving it. I was enjoying it. I actually broke my hand. Very, very bad injury. I tore all the tendons, had to get surgery. Two years of rehab. And during that time, I was trying to figure out, like, okay, so what am I going to be doing? Like. Football is no longer an option for me. And then I went back to my first love, which was cooking. So I spent that whole two years during the summertime when I didn't have school, just trying recipes and watching a lot of Food Network and seeing all these chefs and just being amazed by them. And then I had moved to New York to live with my grandmother. And while living there, that's where I got really, really inspired to really, really jump into cooking and thought about it professionally. So I came back to Canada because I'd spend time going between New York and Canada. I really told myself, You know what, I think I'm going to become a chef. You know, doing that age is very confusing. You don't know what you want to do. You're going to do what your parents tells you, what you're going to do, what you think you like me? I knew I'm like, I'm going to be a chef. I'm going to be the best chef. And I was just so prideful and so excited about it. And that's what I did.

MG: You said it then you were going to be the best chef.

ADRIAN FORTE: Yeah, I just knew. I'm like, because I'm so competitive, I don't do anything halfway. So if I'm going to do it, I don't want to just be the best chef in Toronto, the best chef in Canada. I want to be the best chef, period. And I want to inspire people, people that look like me from my background to let them know that this is possible. It wasn't easy, was a lot of hard work to get where I am, but that's part of the main reason. Now, as an adult, what keeps me going is being able to inspire people. And I have people message me all the time from different backgrounds being like, Man, I got into this because of you. I get high school students messaging me all the time saying I inspire them to figure out what they want to do. I've had people from Italy messaged me and saying that they couldn't figure out what they wanted to do. They found my viral videos and they're like, Now they want to cook. So that's what really drives me, keeps me going, is knowing that I'm inspiring people all over the world.

MG: Did you see people who looked like you when you were starting out? I mean, were there were there people that you could see that you thought, yeah, if they can do it, I can do it?

ADRIAN FORTE: I mean, there wasn't many. You had the Robert for Ferns, you had the Roger Wilkins, but that was basically it. And I did look to those guys for inspiration as well.

MG: As a to the Canadian celebrity chefs from way back. I mean, still doing stuff. But they were on television back when you were doing. Yeah.

ADRIAN FORTE: We actually sent them books and they were like, Chef, so excited and knew like, we're going to try it. Rob was like, Oh, we're going to try some recipes. I'm also going to steal some of my pleasure if I can. If I can give back inspiration to you, that's a big deal for me because you got me into. That's the reason why I love grilling licence to grill.

MG: But what were you up against if you didn't see those people there? I mean, was it easy to crack into that world?

ADRIAN FORTE: It wasn't easy at all. Like, that's why I started to work for myself because, you know, there was a lot of doors I'd go to, places I started off working for different companies and different corporations. And it was tough. You know, you come in, you know, as culinary student, you don't have an experience. That's just generally what it is in the industry. Anyways, you finish school thinking, okay, I'm done school, I know everything, but really you don't. And for me, I always tell people that are in culinary school, you know, working in an industry is what was what's going to make you learn about the industry. You know, you're not going to get here with just resources and networking. It's a lot of hard work.

MG: Okay, so where are we at with the porridge?

ADRIAN FORTE: All right, so you smell that?

MG: And smell it. Yeah, it's probably all spice.

ADRIAN FORTE: So our milk and our pineapple juice is hot. I'm just going to fold in some cornmeal, and I don't want to add it all at once, because if you do, it's going to get really clumpy and not nice and you can also adjust the amount of cornmeal you want. I like my porridge like silky and smooth, and as it sits and it cooks, it's going to get the grains are going to absorb all the liquid. So it'll become like really, really thick. And some people will, they might not be able to take that texture. I mean, I like it, so I'm just going to fold some more cornmeal in.

MG: You said this is non-traditional. So in food, people often get their backs up with it. It needs to be this. It needs to be that. You always been somebody who can kind of move around between traditions.

ADRIAN FORTE: I can. Because basically what I do, if I'm going to learn about a different cuisine, I'm going to get people or champions in that space that teach me about that cuisine. But now when it comes to Afro-Caribbean cuisine, I always tell people I'm like, you know, I'm a Jamaican. So if I make something with specific ingredients, I'm a Jamaican. So it's a Jamaican food, you know what I mean?

MG: So I'm just tell me about Afro Caribbean cuisine. How do you define what that is?

ADRIAN FORTE: So Afro-Caribbean cuisine, if you know anything about Jamaica...

MG: It's thickening up.

ADRIAN FORTE: It's thickening up. You see that?

MG: Yeah.

ADRIAN FORTE: So I'm just slowly folded in. Yeah. So as most people know, you know, the indigenous people of Jamaica. Where the arrow oxen or tails of the curves or of whatever you want to refer to them as, but enslaved people, mostly from Ghana. Most people don't know that made their way to Jamaica by the transatlantic slave trade. And a lot of the recipes that we think are Jamaican were actually African. Like oxtail, for example. You know, Curry was introduced by the Indians that came to Jamaica. So it's like Jamaica's motto is out of many one people. We have everyone there from India and Chinese, and these people are Jamaican. They speak better. [unintelligible] You go to Jamaica, you see them, you're like, you're Jamaican. They're like, well, I thought more like you're shocked, even white people, right? So, you know, we're comprised of so many different ethnicities and our food is so multiethnic that when it comes to Jamaican cuisine, you can go so many different directions and it's still Jamaican like you have Hakka Chinese in Toronto, you have Hakka, Jamaican Chinese, and it's like out of this world. They do like curried noodles with shrimp and Chinese. And it's like it's you just have to go there to kind of understand.

MG: And so why did you want I mean, you could have done a book that's just Jamaican food, but I mean to to lean into the Afro-Caribbean.

ADRIAN FORTE: Yeah, because if I just did Jamaican that I'm just like limited. But being able to do Afro-Caribbean, I can also talk about the historical relevance of the ingredients. You know, like those ingredients, some of the ingredients that are in this book, some of the goodness that we use in Jamaica, they're not native to Jamaica. They had to find out cassava like all these things were brought here during the slave trade. Right. So what I want people to do is cycle back to Africa like this got here because of this. And I want people to understand the importance of these ingredients and why we eat them and why they're in our diet. It also has an impact on the environment. So like a lot of the stuff that we eat, the vegetables that we eat, it's very multi diverse and, you know, it's not farmed by monoculture. All right. So I think. That's a good consistency, you know? It's thick.

MG: Yeah. You kind of whisk it up...

ADRIAN FORTE: Add condensed milk. So once we add condensed milk, that's going to loosen that up a bit. I like mine sweet. I don't know about you.

MG: I follow your lead.

ADRIAN FORTE: Oops. Strongman here. I just popped the tab. Do we have. All right, so. No, no, no, no. We're going to do a Jamaican style. Jamaica. We don't. We don't have kettle printers.

MG: So the man broke the top of the lid, and I just sticks a giant chef's knife. Yeah.

ADRIAN FORTE: We just use our chef knife. We pry it open. That's the Jamaican can opener right there.

MG: Giant knife.

ADRIAN FORTE: All right, so whisk it in our condensed milk. And in Jamaica you would serve this wood hard dough bread.

MG: Hard dough bread or crackers.

ADRIAN FORTE: Hard dough bread is. This are are really, really dense white bread that it's commonly found in Jamaica. You can find in other islands too. But it's it is Jamaican in nature. Yeah, it's it's eaten with so many different things, but with porridge, especially cornmeal porridge, you could sop up all that sweet goodness, but you can also Grace makes a really good brand called Excelsior Water Crackers, and they call them water carcase because you can't eat them by themselves. You got to drink something with that bad boy or you will choke. So, yeah, you can you can crush up some crackers and add in here. It's very, very, very, very delicious. So I thought that's enough condensed milk.

MG: Yeah, all of it. I heard you talk about how in some ways the cuisine that you're involved in, Afro-Caribbean cuisine, it gets undervalued compared to and you see this in terms of the pricing of food as well. So people will go and they'll eat fancy French or Italian meal. They'll be fine with paying 30, $35 for an entree. I'm fine. But that's kind of what they you know, the menu costs. And then if you go into a Jamaican restaurant, Caribbean restaurant here, the expectation of a lot of people is that it's going to be a cheaper 100%.

ADRIAN FORTE: It has to do with the ingredients. So people look at the ingredients and they're like, Oh, oxtail. But oxtails are expensive. They're like about $10 a pound now, right? And that has to do with the popularity, like it's being used in hot cuisine and fine dining cuisine now. So butchers are putting their prices up or like chicken for certain things. And it's crazy because now with a lot of different Eurocentric chefs influence, a lot of chefs are cooking nose to tail. And nose to tail has been African Americans in from the start of existence. That's just what we do. You know, when we're enslaved, Africans would get like the best. Like, what's the word? I'm like the.

MG: Desirable.

ADRIAN FORTE: The undesirable cuts of meat. So they would get like the ham hocks, the pig ears, the orchestra, the chicken foot, and they would make these delicious recipes out of them. And now it's like a thing, like people are like cooking with these ingredients and be like, look, I'm utilising the whole animal, the whole beast because of sustainability and you know, you want to respect the animal and stuff like that. But we've been doing this for years.

MG: Have you seen a change in that? I mean, again, like in terms of how people value that cuisine, that, you know, people think of this as fine dining. I mean, the recipes that are in here are fantastic, but.

ADRIAN FORTE: People value the ingredients, but people don't give the respect to where it comes from, you know what I mean? So that's kind of what I'm trying to educate people on. It's just like, yeah, there's these fancy restaurants that are doing this now, but we've been doing this forever, so it kind of needs disrespect as well. And I feel like it has a lot to do with the vessel. When you go into most Caribbean restaurants, you know you're expecting the food to be in Styrofoam containers, you're expecting this heaping pile of rice. You have a certain expectation and you're expecting to pay a certain price for it. That has to change. And I can't do it by myself. It has to be with other Afro-Caribbean chefs that are pushing the movement forward, pushing the culture forward. And you have tons of them all over the world. You know, people like Andre Falls, Cuomo on show, like all these different chefs that are all pushing Afro-Caribbean cuisine at the same time, and we're all friends. So we all talk about these things and we're just as a collective. We know that we need each other to push the culture forward, and that's the only way our food is going to get respect. It happened with Italian cuisine in the eighties, Asian cuisine in the seventies. People used to look at these foods and be like and frown upon them and not want to eat them. And then these chefs worked hard and toiled and did all these magnificent things and opened up restaurants, and they collectively came together to push our culture forward. So I think that's what has to happen before we're going to get the respect we deserve as more cookbooks and more restaurants and more chefs that are cooking these type of foods. I encounter a lot of, you know, chefs of colour, whether it be Indian or black, that don't cook their own food because when you go to culinary school, you learn to cook the French way. So you're taught that that is the right way of cooking. So when you do certain things, the instructor says, Oh, no, you can't do that.

MG: You saw that when you went to [[unintelligible].

ADRIAN FORTE: Oh, you can't do that. I'm like, Well, this is all my grandma taught me. That's not the right way. So you get programmed a certain way. And for me, being on Top Chef was a big eye opener for me. Because the first couple of episodes are the first couple of days, I was cooking a specific way and I was getting killed. Everyone was like, No, no, fail, no. And I was like, I don't understand. And then I had to like do some soul searching to realise I wasn't cooking the food I wanted to cook. It wasn't coming from here.

MG: But you were cooking to a standard that other people.

ADRIAN FORTE: I was cooking to a standard of somebody else, yeah. So towards the end of the season, I'm like, you know what? I'm going to cook what I want to cook. If I go home, I go home. And it actually worked out in my favour, right? And they were telling me like, this is the best cook the whole entire time. I'm like, Thank God I did not want to go home.

MG: But some of that's on us too, though, right? Is the consumer like we have to value it and we have to be willing to 100% to see it on that.

ADRIAN FORTE: But it comes down to education. Most people don't know. So because they don't know, they make an assumption or it's their perception that this can't be gourmet. There's also not a lot of offerings like I can't think of that many Afro-Caribbean or even fat. Caribbean restaurants in Toronto or even in other cities. There isn't many because it starts with the school. And so the chefs leave. They learn this like Eurocentric, European way of cooking. And then they go out there and they're cooking food that's not indigenous to them because they think that's the only way they can get a job. So they're cooking that type of food. But I have two guys that I'm like mentor now. And they finally found their footing because for years they couldn't figure out what they wanted to do and they were cooking that type of food. And then they met me and they worked at my pop up with the yard and they're like, Oh my God. Like, we're so happy to be Matthew. Like, now we know what we want to do. They figured it out because of that encounter. I think it's really important for people to know about these ingredients and how they correlate to us as people.

MG: And you're a big part of that. I mean, as a role model.

ADRIAN FORTE: I'm trying to keep track. I'm trying. I'm trying.

MG: To guide what's going on here.

ADRIAN FORTE: And I think we're getting there, man.

MG: Looks good.

ADRIAN FORTE: Oh, yeah. It's nice and creamy. So, you know, lumps. Smooth, smooth, silky. Delicious.

MG: We don't have the bread here.

ADRIAN FORTE: You don't have the bread.

MG: Eat it naked.

ADRIAN FORTE: That's okay.

MG: A little bit of cinnamon on top.

ADRIAN FORTE: Of course. I'll serve you.

MG: First. Oh, thank you. You're going to get in the hotel right now. You're very kind. It's breakfast somewhere.

ADRIAN FORTE: It's breakfast right now, actually.

MG: I'll wait for.

ADRIAN FORTE: You even smelling that.

MG: I know. It's incredible.

ADRIAN FORTE: Right? The smell that's coming on.

MG: And you can just I mean, again, this is like a vehicle. You can just kind of add whatever you want.

ADRIAN FORTE: To whatever you want. You can use this as a base and just transform it into whatever you'd like.

MG: Very nice. So thank you very much.

ADRIAN FORTE: It's going to mix.

MG: Yeah. Hmm.

ADRIAN FORTE: As a little pina colada, right.

MG: That feels like summer. It tastes like summer. But there's a there's a lot. The pineapple juice is a surprising element, right? That's like the secret weapon.

ADRIAN FORTE: Oh, yeah. Fantastic.

MG: When you taste this me again, food is like a it's like a time machine, right? That takes you somewhere. When you taste this, where do you get taken?

ADRIAN FORTE: I think of waking up Saturday morning and snow, this aroma and my uncle making a big pot of porridge. Me eat in this. We're going outside and playing cricket with all my friends.

MG: How old were you then?

ADRIAN FORTE: 11. Yeah. That's what I think. It was not a bad memory to have.

MG: It's great to meet you. Thank you very much.

ADRIAN FORTE: Thank you for having me.

MG: Thank you for this, too.

ADRIAN FORTE: It's a pleasure.

MG: Now keep eating because it's rude to just let it sit here. Not too sweet.

ADRIAN FORTE: No.

MG: It's perfect. It's perfect.

ADRIAN FORTE: Thank you.

MS: That was Chef Adrian Forte, speaking- and cooking - with Matt Galloway in June. His new cookbook is Yawd: Modern Afro-Caribbean Recipes. You can check out that recipe for cornmeal porridge, as well of a video of Adrian making it with Matt Galloway, on our website cbc.ca/thecurrent

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MS: That's Bob Marley and The Wailers with Stir it Up. And that's our program for today. Stay tuned to Radio One for q. Today Kate Winslet is on the show. She tells Tom about her latest film Ammonite and her many many award winning roles. And if you can't tune in live, remember the CBC Listen app. It lets you discover the very best in Canadian audio from CBC Radio, CBC Podcasts, and CBC Music. The CBC Listen app lets you catch The Current live from anywhere on your phone or tablet, and catch up on show highlights on demand anytime. And it's free. If you don't have it, give it a try. I'm Michelle Shephard. Thanks for listening to The Current.

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Wednesday August 17, 2022 Full Transcript

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