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The Current Transcript for August 2, 2022

Host: Peter Armstrong

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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This is an attempt at instilling greater fear and intimidation. If they can't rule by the consent of the people of Myanmar, which they obviously cannot, then they're going to try to terrify them even more.

PETER ARMSTRONG: Myanmar's military regime has executed for democracy activists, and dozens more could soon face a similar fate. Coming up, how Myanmar's citizens are responding to the country's first executions in decades and what they want the international community to do. And then.

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The first time you beat me up, it wasn't here. If you're walking down here at night, it'll be dark. It'll be nobody around. And I realise that's not where you're in danger. You're in danger when you go in the house.

PA: Anna maria Tremonti search for closure brings her back to where her abuse started. A trip she made after learning her violent ex husband had died. In an hour, we'll bring you the final episode of her CBC podcast, Welcome to Paradise. But first, paying an exorbitant price to see a working class hero. I'm Peter Armstrong in for Matt Galloway. This is The Current.

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Is dynamic ticket pricing preventing you from seeing your favourite artist? You're not alone

Guests: Bonnie Stiernberg, Sam Weinstein

PA: Listen, when the boss tells you to do something, you do it.

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[Song]

PA: Bruce Springsteen is back on the road with the famous E Street Band, the first tour since 2017. And look, fans, new tickets for are going to be in high demand and well, they weren't expecting a free ride just because they raised their hand. They also weren't expecting just how much they'd need to pay to watch him play. Donna Gray runs an organisation called Bruce Funds that helps raise money to buy tickets for fans who otherwise can't afford them.

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Speaker 4: I did appreciate knowing a year in advance that there was going to be a tour because I was able to reach out to my supporters and my donors and say, you know, for the first time we have we have time to prepare. It was going along really smoothly until the onsale started last week. Oh. A lot of the fan base experience, something called dynamic pricing. They didn't understand that basically ticketing had become like a stock market. The more demand there is, the higher the price goes up. Just this morning, I saw a single ticket for $1893.

[song]

So $1,893 for one seat. That was across the other side of the arena. I'm still processing. It would be fair to say I may have had him meaning more in my life than simply an artist who performs and entertains. His lyrics always gave me something to wrap around me if it was a hard time going through something. The death of my mother, for example. But when seeing him live or trying to get tickets to see him live then becomes a part of a hard time in your life because you can't afford it. It's a bit ironic. I haven't been able to listen to any songs for the last two weeks, so I hope that changes because I do miss it.

[Song]

He himself has said he's been in a life long conversation with his fans. And I wonder now, what is that conversation he's hoping to have? I'm not sure he's having the same conversation with the same fans.

PA: For more now on how dynamic pricing has us all pining for the glory days, I'm joined by Bonnie Stiernberg. She's the managing editor at Inside Hook, a digital publication. Bonnie, good morning.

BONNIE STIERNBERB: Good morning. Thanks for having me.

PA: So how does dynamic pricing work in the context of like concerts or other live events?

BONNIE STIERNBERB: So it's pretty similar to surge pricing with Uber. Like if you're taking any kind of ridesharing service in that, it's based on demand. It's also sort of similar to airline tickets where the price changes depending on how the demand shifts. So you'll see these huge spikes in prices, right? When a big tour like the Springsteen tour, for example, is first goes on sale because everybody is trying to get tickets right away before it sells out. And then maybe the prices will dip a little bit, hopefully. When when, you know, a few months down the road, when people are maybe not looking for tickets as much. But yeah, it's been crazy.

PA: So we just heard that clip from Donna talking about the impact that this has on fans. How much fluctuation in price can there be when when something like dynamic pricing is at play?

BONNIE STIERNBERB: Well, most artists will set a base price for the for the tickets with Ticketmaster and so that that will be sort of the level that they can't fluctuate below. But then yeah, I mean the problem is that with dynamic pricing, fans don't really know when the right time to buy is. And so they, you know, they get worried, they think, oh gosh, this is going to sell out. And so they maybe spend more than they're willing than they would have normally been willing to spend on these tickets because they look and they see, oh, well, this this ticket costs $700 yesterday and today it's only 500. So I better act now. But, you know, it's it can be confusing, to say the least.

PA: Now, I mean, the Springsteen tour tried to alleviate some of that and only released tickets to specific concerts on specific days. You had to sign up before to to get access to those and get into a waiting room. And Ticketmaster says that that that surge pricing or dynamic pricing really only applied to platinum tickets, which is about 11%, and that almost 90% of the tickets sold went at face value. What do you what do you make of that?

BONNIE STIERNBERB: Yeah. I mean, that's that's certainly what they're saying. I just personally have been, you know, looking at prices for the the shows here in New York, just out of curiosity and because I'm a Springsteen fan and I like to go to those, but certainly from what I've been seeing, you know, I the those tickets, the the regular priced ones got snatched up pretty much immediately. And what's left now is insane prices like I was looking last night and I saw that there was a ticket behind the stage way up in the nosebleed. So not even, you know, he wouldn't even be facing you for most of the show. And it was $400. So it's been it's been a little bit nuts. So, you know, the the people who were able to get those those prices pretty much had to buy them immediately as soon as those tickets went on sale, because I, I certainly haven't seen anything under under like $300 recently.

PA: I think part of the complaint specifically against Bruce Springsteen is that, you know, he's he's made his money. He toured for years. He just sold his catalogue for like $550 million.

BONNIE STIERNBERB: Right.

PA: How what is his team? I know that Jon Landau, his manager, has spoken at least The New York Times about this. What are they saying about this, the reaction here?

BONNIE STIERNBERB: They've sort of stuck to their guns and said, you know, this is with we're this is what market prices nowadays. You know, they're saying that it's on par with other AASA what they're doing and that they insist that the average ticket price for these shows has been in the mid 200 range, which depending on, you know, your current financial situation probably still sounds like a lot to a lot of people. But yeah, they've been sort of sticking to their guns and saying that they believe that this is a fair price for for an artist as this legend, you know.

PA: What about other musicians, other artists that, you know, like it's this post-pandemic period. Everybody wants to get out, get back out on the road, see some shows. How are other artists and musicians responding to this?

BONNIE STIERNBERB: Well, it has been a big problem post pandemic because, you know, we all sort of had a break from seeing shows and so maybe we didn't notice this or realise it or a lot of artists had the ability previously to opt out of dynamic pricing. So it wasn't as big of a widespread thing. But this is that dynamic pricing has actually been in place since pre-pandemic in back in 2018. Taylor Swift caught some heat for this and a similar thing. We weren't seeing prices nearly as high as as Bruce Springsteen. But, you know, Taylor Swift tickets were going for like $600. And My Chemical Romance has a reunion tour that they did that tickets that were originally priced at $200 were being marked up all the way to $1,000. So and they had to sort of deal with that and the backlash from their fans over that. So it has been going on for a while. But I think with the pandemic, artists are a little bit more hesitant to opt out of dynamic pricing because they're you know, they've had two years off the road, their primary income source, and they're looking to sort of recoup their losses from from two years. So, you know, every dollar counts.

PA: You know, the idea or maybe the justification here is, is to try to cut out scalpers and and address actual fans getting actual tickets to actual shows. How is it that after all these years, we still haven't figured this out?

BONNIE STIERNBERB: I don't know. And I, I mean, all I can say, but I, from what I've seen, has not been cutting out scalpers whatsoever. I mean, you know, you look at even just the secondary market, you know, on places like StubHub and that kind of thing. I was looking there and it's the same thing. People buy up these insanely priced tickets thinking that they can flip that. And then, you know, there are I was looking the other day, there are hundreds of tickets available for all of these Bruce Springsteen shows on secondary markets like StubHub. And and so clearly, someone is banking on the fact that there are people out there who will pay these outrageous prices.

PA: We got to go. But do you have, like one piece of advice for people out there trying to buy tickets to, you know, the fall and into summer tours that are out there right now?

BONNIE STIERNBERB: I would say do not buy tickets the day that the tickets go on sale, because that's when demand is highest and that's when you're going to you're going to see them, see these outrageous prices, keep checking the prices regularly because they do fluctuate. And I don't think necessarily that the shows are going to sell out immediately because as we've seen with Bruce Springsteen, I think people are sort of reaching a limit with insane prices and realising that maybe it's not feasible or sustainable. And so there are a lot of tickets still available later on down the road.

PA: All right, Bonnie, we've got to leave it there, but thanks for this.

BONNIE STIERNBERB: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me.

PA: Bonnie Sternberg is the managing editor at Insidehook. She joined us from Brooklyn. Now, dynamic pricing has all kinds of consequences beyond just an expensive ticket to see the boss. Sam Weinstein is an expert in corporate and antitrust laws, and he recently co-authored a paper on dynamic pricing and its risks to consumers. Sam, hello.

SAM WEINSTEIN: Hi. How are you? Good morning.

PA: So, you know, we just heard about Ticketmaster using dynamic pricing, but where else is it? How prevalent is this practise?

SAM WEINSTEIN: So it's quite common. I mean, I think all of us buy dynamically price goods all the time. And maybe the best example is the Amazon marketplace, where Amazon itself famously uses dynamic pricing. But many of the third party sellers on Amazon marketplace also use dynamic pricing. As your previous guest mentioned, airlines across e-commerce, not just Amazon, but other e-commerce sites. Uber and Lyft, of course, famously use search pricing, dynamic pricing. So we're touched by it all the time. You know, if we don't always recognise that.

PA: And in your paper you say that, you know, these algorithms have the potential, if I'm quoting, a rate to facilitate explicit and tacit collusion between sellers. What do you mean by that?

SAM WEINSTEIN: Yeah, so I think there's a couple of worries with pricing algorithms. So one is that sellers could use this tech to work together right to an agree on a price either explicitly or you know, you and I agree we're going to charge X ratings or algorithms to do this and that X price is going to be higher than the competitive price. That's one possibility, which is tacitly in other words, we don't agree explicitly, but our algorithms are so sophisticated they can. Stan. They can you know, both firms can raise prices, both competitors can raise prices, and prices grow higher based on a sort of tacit agreement. So that's one set of worries that academics think about and lawyers think about. Another set of worries is that firms won't even need to agree, either tacitly or explicitly, to raise prices. That dynamic pricing will just raise prices in other ways. And so, you know, we talk about the economics of that in the paper.

PA: Like in what other ways, how does that work?

SAM WEINSTEIN: Okay. So so our theory is that it's the paper I've written with Alex McKay at the Harvard Business School. Our theory is that in many markets, there's a difference in the sophistication of the algorithms, right? So Amazon, for instance, has a much more sophisticated algorithm than third party sellers. What happens is the more sophisticated algorithms are faster. Right. So Amazon is faster at changing its prices than its competitors. And its competitors know this. So when its competitors set a price, say some mom and pop sell on Amazon, that mom and pop seller knows Amazon's going to undercut me right away. Amazon can do this. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to raise my price a little bit knowing that Amazon will undercut me and Amazon does indeed undercut the seller. Amazon also charges about the competitive price, right? So so our theory is because of this difference in sophistication, all firms decide we're going to charge above the competitive price. And as a buyer, let's say in the paper, we talk about allergy medicine. As a buyer, you might look at allergy medicines online and think, oh, there's different prices here, and I'm going to pick the lowest one. And you might think, well, I've gotten a deal, right? An argument is, no, all those prices are above the competitive level due to algorithmic pricing. So consumers are transferring their wealth to sellers because of pricing algorithms.

PA: And I mean, obviously, the U.S. and Canada have laws that prohibit actual price collusion. Do those laws still apply when it's not two companies sitting down and working out a deal to collude on prices? It's just algorithms doing their thing.

SAM WEINSTEIN: That's a great question. And the answer is no. And so right now, there's no regulation of this kind of activity. Right. So antitrust can't reach this kind of conduct because there's no agreement. So in the United States, when sellers agree to raise prices together, that's an anxious violation. But you need that agreement. And here there's no agreement. There's nothing close to an agreement. In fact, the algorithms are competing. They're just working together to raise price. And so there's no antitrust solution. So in the paper, we talk about potential regulatory solutions, right? So a law that might be passed to protect consumers from this kind of price increase.

PA: You know, the tech world will tell you that transparency, including especially the algorithm transparency, how it actually works is the solution to all of this. Will that work? And if not, what what can protect consumers?

SAM WEINSTEIN: So I think the transparency it's a tough issue because I think most consumers don't recognise that they're paying above the competitive price. They look at the the difference in prices that they see, let's say, on the Amazon marketplace and think I'll pick the lowest price. Here's competition that's working for me. So I think you first have to appreciate as a consumer that you're probably paying more. And then how do you fight back? Well, one way you could do it is to have consumer unions have their own algorithms that might be able to use big data to figure out what the competitive price should be. That might be, you know, creating some actual transparency for consumers. We argue in the paper that we think because it's difficult for consumers to see this pricing and understand what it is, that government intervention is probably warranted.

PA: Where do you expect? I mean, it's the kind of thing that it's hard to put the toothpaste back in toothpaste tube. Where does this go from here?

SAM WEINSTEIN: It's not going to go back in the tube. I think that's a that's a good a good analogy. I mean, we're just going to see more and more dynamic pricing. You know, now we see it only online, essentially. But I think there's a tech coming that will transfer it to physical stores by using, you know, you know, certain kinds of technologically advanced price tags. So I think we're just going to see more and more dynamic pricing. And I think, you know, education of consumers is important. Consumers teaming together might be important to try to figure out how to do all this. But again, I think it comes down to, you know, government regulation issue that, you know, it takes time. But I think government needs to recognise that consumers are going be paying more across the board.

PA: And so, I mean, consumer unions, algorithms, what role then like is it? Do we need new legislation? Do we need a sort of a summit on how to address this? Because, as you say, this isn't just tickets to the boss. This is seeping into every aspect of our lives.

SAM WEINSTEIN: Yeah, this is everything. Toilet paper, toothpaste, you know, all your consumer goods. So we are going to paper for new legislation, right? So we argue that there are you know, it's early days, so it's a little hard to know what the best solution might be. But we proposed one. So I'll mention that here, which is in some markets, some gas markets in Australia and Austria, the government is required all retailers to set their price at the same time every day. And so when you do that, the mechanism that we talk about where algorithms can undercut one another, raising price that won't function anymore. So one way you could address this is to say in markets subject to this problem, everyone has the price at the same time. Now, doesn't have to be once a day. It could be once an hour. But everyone has a price at the same interval. And this takes away that sort of leader follower pattern I mentioned before and hopefully returns price to competitive levels. So that's one possibility. But I think as time goes by and we know we grapple with the tech and legislators understand what's happening, other possibilities will arise for effective legislation.

PA: Well, listen, this isn't particularly encouraging, but it sure is fascinating. I'm glad to get you on the show to talk about this today.

SAM WEINSTEIN: Okay. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.

PA: Sam Weinstein is a lawyer and a professor of law at Yeshiva University. He was in New York. All right. The CBC News is next. And then.

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These heinous acts of violence demonstrate the regime's brutality in a new and horrible light. And we remain concerned. It also reflects an ongoing disregard for the human rights and rule of law.

PA: The United States and Canada have joined countries around the world in condemning the executions of four political prisoners in Myanmar. They were part of the resistance to the military junta that took over the government of that country just last year. Coming up, we'll hear about the ongoing fight for democracy. I'm Peter Armstrong sitting in for Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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Calls for international community to act as Myanmar executes pro-democracy activists

Guests: Shoon Naing, Damien Kingsbury

PA: Hello. I'm Peter Armstrong, in for Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. Still to come.

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PA: While making her CBC podcast, Welcome to Paradise, Anna maria Tremonti learns her abusive ex husband has died and decides to attend his visitation. But first, an escalation of violence in Myanmar.

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PA: Four pro-democracy activists have been executed in Myanmar and the country's first executions in more than 30 years. The activists were sentenced to death in closed door trials earlier this year. They were in custody for committing, quote, terror acts against the military regime during the coup in February of 2021. Last week, hundreds of pro-democracy demonstrators express their outrage by protesting in front of Myanmar's embassy in Bangkok, Thailand.

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[Protesters chanting]

PA: Meanwhile, more than 100 other political prisoners are facing the death penalty. And yesterday, the military government extended its emergency rule until 2023. Shoon Naing is a senior correspondent for Reuters, Myanmar. Hello.

SHOON NAING: Hello. Hi.

PA: What do we know at this point about these executions that happened last week?

SHOON NAING: So last week, as everyone already knows, like Umar is acutely wanting to, is a good day for democracy activists, including very prominent people [unintelligible] and [unintelligible] and we don't know what is that little execution happened we only know when they announced the excution . So then? Then the families went to the prison to get their bodies back and their families were not given any of the remains, any bodies. And also the family members only had a chance, one chance to talk to them via video call three days before the announcement. And on after that, they also had no interaction with any of the prisoners. So that's what happened. There's a lot of information that we don't know.

PA: Right. You mentioned the names of these activists. And two of them, of course, are quite prominent. But for people who haven't been following this story, can you just tell us who were these four men that were executed?

SHOON NAING: So the four men are Phyo Zeya Thaw, Kyaw Min Yu, Hla Myo Aung and Aung Thura Zaw. And the first two Phyo Zeya Thaw is a former lawmaker for [unintelligible] party and he was also an artist and who helped [unintelligible] in Myanmar. So he spent several years in jail after the arrest in 2008 as well in another demonstration. And also Jimmy, he's a long time prominent activist in Myanmar since 1988 pro-democracy movement. He was detained for 18 years during a previous era of military rule. And the other two, the other two, [unintelligible] is probably not about them, but an officer and an activist group called Assistance Association for Political Prisoners that they were from Yangon and been involved in protest and resistance movements, things that [unintelligible].

PA: The official line is that they were convicted of, quote, terror acts. What were they actually convicted of doing?

SHOON NAING: So for Phyo Zeya Thaw, although he was accused, he was accused of being one of the masterminds for a series of attacks in Yangon and also for [unintelligible] for him it was also accused of being behind the killing of military informants and attacks on the power stations or state owned buildings. And the other two, they were accused for killing a woman who is an informant so that that's what they would be accused, but was on their phone, reimbursed them on the charges.

PA: And I mean, all of this happened behind closed doors. Is there any evidence has been made public that they were actually involved in any of those incidents?

SHOON NAING: So I talked to the family members, they told me that they were involved in the revolution, but then none of the accusation. We don't have any evidence. There was no public information. And in the order, trials happened behind a closed door in the military tribunal, and none of the movements were in touch with the prisoners throughout the trial. So we just have no zero information on the trial or anything happened.

PA: And I mean, that lack of information doesn't just apply to this case. It applies to everybody else that's been been jailed over. This is like 100 political prisoners that are facing the death penalty. What does this decision mean for for those who are jailed and being held by the military regime right now?

SHOON NAING: So let's tie in the military person, the military spokesman said that they had to implement that penalty for the sake of the people, for the protection of the people, for the security of the country. And this might not be his exact words, but that's the meaning from his conversations. So they claimed that they were trying to stabilise the country by bringing back the death penalty, which they hadn't been done for like [unintelligible] years. And as you guys already know, the outcry for these and the whole organisation also for these and the occurrence of that and then this, they said this means like on your mountains is more oppression on the revolution.

PA: You mentioned that you've spoken with the families leading up to and since this. How are they possibly responding to this and especially the fact that they just haven't been given basic information, access to to the bodies of their loved ones?

SHOON NAING: So I talked to the two prominent activist wives and then one eye on the unknown onto the one that announced the execution. I called them right away because I was in touch with them all. And then I told them, Oh, hello. I thought I saw this information on the on Time newspaper that your husbands were executed. And then the immediate response was like, they couldn't believe it. They don't believe me. Although I told them like, okay, this is in the newspaper and in this form, but in the end, they'll be able to give us a few hours, I guess, for the first morning, you know, and then [unintelligble] But then the other members went to the prison and explained the authorities to themselves and then ask for the body. By then, the authorities, the prison authorities informed them that the situation happened then, but refused to give the bodies back. So these two wives, they are pretty strong and they said they were continue the revolution and they are also themselves also deeply involved in the revolution. But so did yes, they are strong and try to cope with this but not only them, but you know, the whole Myanmar community are stuff like this kind of disbelief that this situation actually happened.

PA: And I wonder how the how the broader public has responded to all of this. I mean, as you said, two of these men that were killed were quite prominent. So how are people in Myanmar responding to what's happening with this?

SHOON NAING: So on the first day for just a couple of days, people on expressed the sorrow on the social media. As I already said, like you've expressed disbelief and sorrow and also all crying and then people become a death. Okay, we must continue the revolution for these people. And people changed the Facebook profile big into red or blue and then make this sort of like small campaigns for the outcry and sorrow to show all the activists.

PA: How how dangerous is it for people to, you know, to say stuff like that to get into their outcry and even just post their sorrow on social media? Is it a risk?

SHOON NAING: So ah, yeah, that definitely is a risk because that is online. Then there are reports of this more accidents where people who have changed their profile do either black, red or black. Black. Arrested. There was more reports from the local media, so people had to like quickly change it back or even have the belief that if you have a black photo in your phone, you had to bring back before you go in Yangon, walking on the streets, you have to delete all those pieces. So there are so many weeks now.

PA: I wonder what the international response has been to what's happened and how much of a factor that is. Does the international community still carry much weight that can be applied as pressure to the military junta?

SHOON NAING: So on the execution, on the day the execution was announced, the initiative communities released statements missed all the countries and embassies all they should release their statements denouncing and demanding for the release of the political prisoners and [unintelligible]. But then when I talked to family members or wanted to get an Alice or Myanmar abolitionists, they told me that in this community need to do something more than releasing the statement, need to be more involved in the action. Because even before the executions initiative community were given the pressure on their own time not to implement the execution, but to continue to commit it. So that means that the pressure is not working. So the revolutionst told me that, like, okay, this is the time for the community to step in physically involvement, not more than just releasing the statements or denouncing these.

PA: Is there a sense, though, that international pressure can work?

SHOON NAING: So far based on the previous those, it hasn't been work. So and that's not my own judgement. It's also the decision from the analysts as well. Right.

PA: You know, I think people hear the news that's happening out of there and have an image in their in their minds of what life is generally like since the military took over after that coup of February of last year. Can you just paint a picture for us? What is everyday life like in Myanmar right now?

SHOON NAING: So in Myanmar every day, the biggest city it is Yangon. In Yangon, everything is like this become more difficult. Like if you want to take on many cash from the ATM, you have to line up or if you want to get at no one to get a patrol. They are based at the petrol station which used to sell the petrol and the economy, this economic area. So then medical supplies are more difficult to get access to. And so like everyday livelihood will become more and more difficult. And for the for the revolutionists and activists, it becomes so much because they are so many to place in the tunnel. And when you drive the car around the town there took place and they would check your phone to stop the car and check inside the car and etc.. So every day they like me who has become more restricted and more difficult.

PA: We've been trying to get one activist to come on the radio this morning and speak to us about exactly that situation and just haven't been able to get a line through. How difficult is it? Are they being constantly monitored? What is life like today for those pro-democracy activists?

SHOON NAING: So for the pro-democracy activists, if they are still inside Myanmar, then they have to live in safe houses and they have to keep moving from one safe house to another and keep moving to locations. And now there's this sense more or less people trust us that happening. But then, for as good as they are at risks of being run by civilian car being rolled by the security forces, or aren't they risks of arrest. So one of our the organisers, even in a very small flash mob protest, they had to like just quickly hide or run away. And if they get inside Myanmar is much more difficult in terms of like electricity problems or access to internet and everything is like restricted. And if there were examples of arrests at this side of the protest and there is a mass of like killings at the site of the protest as well.

PA: Well, look, it's an incredibly important story and a difficult time. We're really glad to get you on the show this morning to talk about it.

SHOON NAING: Thanks so much for having me.

PA: Shoon Naing is a senior correspondent for Reuters Myanmar now. Damien Kingsbury is an emeritus professor at Deakin University in Australia and he led the Australian Election Observer mission to Myanmar's 2015 elections. Good morning to you.

DAMIEN KINGSBURY: Hey, good morning. Good to be with you.

PA: So, I mean, there's a lot to extrapolate here, but what signals do you take from the execution of these four men?

DAMIEN KINGSBURY: Well, the military regime is showing that it's running out of tolerance for the continued resistance by the national unity government and its supporters and by the People's Defence Forces, which are putting up a fairly stiff resistance. And they're basically saying, look, you know, Chuck's over. We're going to start executing people to show you that we want to, in their terms, normalise things so we can progress towards a point where we can have elections on our own terms.

PA: And do you anticipate that this is a beginning? I mean, do you expect there'll be more killings.

DAMIEN KINGSBURY: Continued resistance, yes, there probably will be more executions. And we're not seeing any letup in the resistance. Indeed. It seems to have only stiffened the resolve of of the national unity government and the people's defence forces to bring about a change and a return to a democratic framework. So I think the Tatmadaw, the Myanmar military is very frustrated by these circumstances and I think they will take their frustration on prisoners currently on death row.

PA: So last week we have the announcement of of these executions. Just yesterday, the junta announced that the emergency military rule is going to continue through to 2023. How surprised were you by that move?

DAMIEN KINGSBURY: I'm surprised that actually said 2023. I would think it's actually going to go much longer, but it's possible that they're trying to hedge their bets by stretching it out a years of time. The they may bring around a situation where there are elections again once a once they shape the political arena to their liking. Think what you would see something like what happened in Thailand, where after the military coup there, the constitution was rewritten, a particular party's dominant parties were not allowed to contest the elections. And and the circumstances of the elections themselves were very tightly constrained. So you can have any government you like, essentially something as though it was a military backed government. I think the Tatmadaw would be looking to do much the same as they lack political imagination. They do take their signals from other countries and I'm pretty sure that's what they're looking to do, although I would think that they would probably have an even more unearthed political environment for any elections that are held than those that were in Thailand.

PA: You know, people have spent their lives and risked their lives fighting for democracy in Myanmar. Is it a further off goal and dream now than it maybe has ever been?

DAMIEN KINGSBURY: I hate to say it, but I think so at this stage. The Tatmadaw is a very substantial military force. It had built itself up, particularly over the past 30 years, really strengthened its grip on society and it's insinuated itself into every aspect of the infrastructure, the political infrastructure, the bureaucratic infrastructure of the state. Myanmar is essentially a garrison state, and I just don't see that the national unity government is going to be able to throw Tatmadaw out and I don't think Tatmadaw will give in without well certainly had a very significant fight and I don't believe that the national unity government has the capacity to do that, certainly not in present circumstances and certainly not while it's essentially left to its own devices.

PA: There have been calls for China to intervene here. And I mean, I hate to be a cynic, but is that is that even realistic?

DAMIEN KINGSBURY: No, not nothing. You're not in the least cynical. No. China's very happy to have Myanmar as a client state for strategic reasons, primarily economic reasons to some extent, but primarily for strategic reasons. So they want a government or a regime in Myanmar that is compliant and agreeable. The Tatmadaw is certainly that Tatmadaw relies on China very heavily for supply of weapons, equipment, logistics and of course to shield it diplomatically, particularly in the United Nations and especially in the Security Council where China is one of the permanent five members. So China is certainly not going to do anything to upset one of its client states. More likely it would support that client state and would shield continue to shield it and and prop it up. So I think really the only option if we are to see anything like a challenge to the Tatmadaw, to the military regime in Myanmar, is if it comes from a an opposition and national unity government that is supported by the West, and that would then mean that Myanmar became, in effect, a proxy war.

PA: You know, I think when most Westerners think of Myanmar, they still think of Aung San Suu Kyi, first, the former civilian leader. Where is she now?

DAMIEN KINGSBURY: She is in prison and she's already been convicted on trumped up charges. And I've got to say that I'm not a huge fan of Suu Kyi, both for other reasons. But but there's no question that she is much loved within Myanmar. She she has very, very widespread support. And the charges against her are completely manufactured. And the new charges, which look like being brought against her, which will keep her incarcerated indefinitely, are also manufactured. So she will stay in prison. She may eventually, I think if the Tatmadaw or whatever the regime chooses to call itself in the future, if they feel sufficiently comfortable and secure, they may let her go back into house arrest, which she had been in previously. But at this stage she will stay in jail.

PA: There's an economist who worked with her, Australian Sean Turnell. He was also arrested. Do we have a sense of what could happen to him?

DAMIEN KINGSBURY: Yeah, again, I think he'll also remain locked up indefinitely, particularly whilst the regime feels some degree of insecurity. Personnel's crime, such as it is, is that he simply knows how the economy works. He knows in great detail how the military is invested in the economy and how it benefits from its large scale, very large scale business interests and how the various generals are tied up. And he knows that if he was released, the Tatmadaw knows that he. Could direct sanctions against the state and its senior officers military, which would really hurt them. So I think he's been kept kept locked up, not because he's done anything wrong, but simply because if he was allowed to go free, he does have the power to actually hurt or hurt that military regime. And that's something that they're not prepared to risk.

PA: If the best hope for democracy is, in fact, a, you know, some sort of an opposition coalition to to challenge the military regime, what role can and should the international community play in in trying to help foster that?

DAMIEN KINGSBURY: Well, that's that's the big question. I mean, how far is the West? And it does really come down to the West. How far is the West prepared to go on this, given that they can't do anything through the Security Council of the United Nations because of China's veto? So I think the West can certainly impose more sanctions. I think it's done perhaps not enough in that regard. We haven't seen the level of sanctions nor support, for example, that we've seen in Ukraine. We could potentially see Western governments support the national unity government, which is a legitimate coalition of of civilian civilian political forces. And I think that would be a perfectly reasonable thing to do. But again, as I say, what that would do would make Myanmar essentially a proxy war and proxy wars have their own dynamic and sometimes don't end up with the best results for the people who live there.

PA: You know, I think those messages apply to a broader Western audience writ large. I wonder specifically you're speaking to a Canadian audience right now. What do you think Canadian the Canadian government, the country of Canada can be doing in this moment?

DAMIEN KINGSBURY: Well, Canada, like Australia, I guess, could certainly ramp up its its sanctions. And sanctions are always going to hurt civilians. And I think that's one of the things that has to be understood and to some extent calibrated. But there can be increased sanctions that we can also, particularly together, apply pressure on the United States, on the European Union, on the U.K. and so on, to also increase sanctions, to really put the squeeze on Myanmar, on its economy, on its export markets, to make sure that all of the offshore accounts are utterly frozen and that there is simply no money going back into the country other than through a supporter such as China and Russia. Russia is also a significant supplier to the military there. And we could also put pressure perhaps. At the moment, things are pretty tense with both China and Russia. But but it may be we may be able to apply pressure to those countries as well to at least limit their support fall for the military regime. Now, I don't know how effective that would be, but short of actually just getting in there and providing weapons and training perhaps, but certainly weapons to the people's defence forces of a national unity government. I'm not sure how much how much else we could actually do.

PA: Well, listen, we really appreciate your insight on this. Thanks for coming on the show today.

DAMIEN KINGSBURY: It's my pleasure. Thank you for having me.

PA: Damien Kingsbury is an emeritus professor at the Deakin University in Australia. We're going to take a quick break, but coming up after your regional update.

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I truly believe if you didn't do this after so many times saying that you wanted to have some sort of closure with a conversation, that you would kick your ass.

PA: Ana maria Tremonti has a moment of trepidation outside the visitation for her abusive ex husband. She's about to face his family for the first time in decades. We'll bring you the final episode of her CBC podcast, Welcome to Paradise. That's coming up after the break. I'm Peter Armstrong, sitting in for Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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The final episode of Welcome to Paradise

PA: I'm Peter Armstrong. You're listening to The Current. We've been presenting the CBC podcast, Welcome to Paradise. Renowned Canadian journalist and former host of The Current, Anna Aaria Tremonti is breaking a 40 year long silence on her past experience with domestic violence. Here she is with the final episode, The Visitation, and a warning. The following deals with descriptions of violence.

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ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: So I've been thinking if the shame we carry from abuse and gender based violence was something you could physically see, it would be an ugly, prickly blanket. And every time you went out to buy groceries or stood waiting to cross the street, you'd see all sorts of people shrouded in that heavy blanket and you'd be reminded it's everywhere because there are so many victims of gender based violence. What I'm learning is that talking about it is helping me shrug off that blanket and it's and speaking up that you can start to see who else has had their own struggle. You recognise who's around you. I'll never know what kind of conversation I might have had with Pat if I could have confronted him, whether he would have apologised or made me feel worse. So now all I can do is go to the funeral home to see if there's anything I can learn that might help me understand who he was. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is Welcome to Paradise.

[Music]

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SUE: So do you feel weird?

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: No, no.

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ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Sue picks me up at the Halifax Airport.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: I'm glad to see. It's a really bizarre kind of. Set of circumstances, bringing us together right now.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: It's been a while since I've been back, but it's only been five days since I opened that email from Pat's sister telling me he's died of a heart attack.

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You know, I don't think I'd go without you. I just. I had this weird, bizarre feeling that what if it's a trick? What if it's a trick. But he's not dead. But he wants to... He knows that I'm doing a podcast. And he wants to get me.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: I've been fretting about going to Pat's visitation. The ex-wife showing up after 40 years. But when I wrote to ask Pat Sister if it would be okay for us to show up, she said, We would love to see you and Sue. We head out the next day for the funeral home. It's in a small town 2 hours away. As we drive along, I'm still worrying.

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ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: I just, like. I don't understand why I feel so weird.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Is it unethical, rude to go to the visitation where no one knows? I'm working on this podcast. I'm nervous about what to expect. But first, I want to take a quick detour on the way out of town. Here, here. This is to the apartment building where Pat and I lived.

SOUNDCLIP

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Okay. Oh, slow down. Okay. This one? Yeah. Yeah. And I was on the second floor. Lacewood drive. Huh? This is where the first time he beat me up. It was in here.

SUE: What's it feel like pulling in the driveway here?

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: It's okay. It's... I mean, this was this. This was the place. Well, yeah, this was the place I realised, you know, that it's dangerous when you close the door. If you're walking down here at night, it'll be dark. It'll be nobody around. Yeah. And I realised that's not where you're in danger. You're in danger when you go in the house.

SUE: Yeah. Isn't that a scary statement to make, huh?

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Oh, yeah. This leads down to the Bedford Highway right now. Okay. Yeah.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: We head out of the city, down the highway toward the funeral home. Not quite sure what we're getting ourselves into. We arrive in town with time to spare, so we decide to check out Pat's house there and drive by. I'd found it on Google Street View back when I thought I could just boldly show up at his door and ask if he'd talk to me.

SOUNDCLIP

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Okay, so it's that house.

SUE: Yeah. It looks like some cute little house.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: It's a cute little house.

SUE: It doesn't look like it has been loved.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: The weeds growing up by, you know, all that lumber just tossed out.

SUE: For the better part of a year. I pictured myself walking up to this house and knocking on the door. It would keep me awake at night. When I go in, sit at the kitchen table, really talk to him. Would he be hostile, violent, repentant? This house and the man inside have loomed large for so long. And now he's gone. And this house. It's just a house. It's as if someone let the air out of a balloon.

SOUNDCLIP

GPS: Turn right on Main Street.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: We\re early. So let's just go right by. Yeah.

SUE: We'll find a place to park beyond it, okay.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: And just sit and talk for a minute. Yeah.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: The funeral home is a beautiful old Victorian mansion with a wraparound porch. The autumn leaves are scattered around a wide expanse of grass. I've thought hard about what to wear a long oatmeal coloured sweater over black trousers and a white blouse and beautiful short black boots. The more insecure I feel, the more carefully I dress.

SOUNDCLIP

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: I'm feeling very, un-- I'm feeling physically unsettled. Like I'm feeling like butterflies or something. And I am...

SUE: Is it nervousness?

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Yes.

SUE: Okay. So let's talk this down. Nobody's going to be confrontational in this setting and nobody's going to be confrontational after 40 years. So there's no firing squad here. I and I understand I understand your your trepidation about this. I do get that. But as your friend, my duty is to help you calm your nerves before we go in.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Okay. So why do I need to go in at all?

SUE: You do. It's. It's the last tac in the box, I think. I truly believe if you didn't do this after so many times, saying that you wanted to have some sort of closure with the conversation, that you would kick your arse. Are you thinking you've misjudged yourself?

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: No, I think that's true. I think that unless I venture and I don't know and if it's not a good idea, I can leave.

SUE: Do you want to go in?

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Yeah, I guess. I'm going to turn this off now.

[Silence]

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Okay. One, two, three. I'm recording. Just left the funeral home. Wow.

SUE: What is in your head right now?

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: I don't. I find it interesting...

It's about an hour later and we're back in the car. Very different. In the funeral home, I'd barely noticed the urn with Pat's ashes. I got talking to his brother in law while Sue wandered toward a cluster of other relatives. So now I'm filling her in on what happened with me.

SOUNDCLIP

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: So we're standing there, and his sister's husband comes up and says, I don't know you. And then I say, I'm Anna maria. And he hugs me. And it's a heartfelt hug. He said, I have something I want to give you. So he comes back with his bag right here. I've got it. And he says, I don't know if you have one of these. And it's the brown velvet photo album of our wedding. And I said, Thank you. I'll take it. Thank you. It's the same photo album I have with the picture of the two of us in front of the sign that says Welcome to Paradise. His brother in law told me that in the years after the divorce, Pat hadn't taken care of himself as much as he should have. He told me when the marriage ended, Pat was really upset and depressed for a long time, and he said he was always trying to find himself. And he said, I don't think he ever did. He didn't even have another relationship. He had some close friends, but he never- he said he was always like on his own. He didn't have another relationship.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: His sister told me that he wrote a song for me and that during all the years I was hosting The Current, Pat listen to me on the radio every morning.All those years he listened to the show and he was proud of me. Very odd.There was so much to take in. And as I talked to his brother in law, there was more.

SOUNDCLIP

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: And he said, you know, he got the money from the settlement for the abuse. And I said, the abuse from the church. And he said yes.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: That's something I haven't mentioned yet. Pat had hinted that he'd been abused when he was younger. He and his friends would joke that their first sexual experiences were with the parish priest. They never called it abuse. I don't think they had the words back then. Joking was their way to cope. And I never asked him about it. I didn't have the words either. But when Pat's brother in law alluded to it at the funeral home, things started to fall into place for me.

SOUNDCLIP

SUE: So this brother in law of his.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Yeah, we talked a little more, and I actually said something to the effect that I always wondered about that I thought that what he went through affected what happened in our marriage. Yeah. And he nodded, almost knowingly. It turns out Pat received a settlement sometime later in his life, though it likely would never have been enough to compensate for all the damage done. As I left the funeral home, his brother in law invited me back to Pat's house, along with the others. I declined. It just didn't feel right. I'd shown up without telling them what I was working on. Anyone can walk into a funeral home, I reasoned. But they were grieving. It wasn't the time to tell them about the podcast and joining them at Pat's house, his private space felt like crossing a line. Still, his brother in law told me if I was ever in their city, I could drop in and we could talk more. Sue and I continue discussing it all back in Halifax over wine.

SUE: So the first thing is and this is maybe in Bossypants again, I'm just going to be, I'm going to ask you to be very cautious. Keep going and just stop and weigh the pros and cons of having a further conversation with them, getting into those sordid details, because you could end up in a quagmire that will distress you more than what you've finished with today.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: You're worried that I'm going to waver from telling the story that I have always thought needs to be told because I'm going to start to feel bad about them.

SUE: Yes.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: So you're worried that I'm going to pull my punches for fear of hurting their feeling?

SUE: Yes.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Sue's words echo in my head as I fly home to Toronto. I don't want to hurt their feelings, but I don't want to censor myself either. I know I need to tell Pat's family that I'm working on this series, and I do want to know if we can talk more. I'm still curious about what they can tell me about him. I wait a week and write an email to his sister offering my condolences once again and then shifting, I am in the midst of writing a podcast that is both a memoir and a look at the long term effects of intimate partner violence. I had intended to include a conversation with Pat with no trite demand for an apology or dramatic confrontation, but rather with the hope that he would tell me something that would help me understand. I imagine it is difficult for you to read what I'm writing. If there were things you'd like me to know about him, I'd welcome a further conversation. I hit send. A couple of weeks go by. No answer. Two weeks later, still no answer. I write again. And then a reply. When we saw you at the funeral home, we were so pleased. And then your request came and we were so disappointed. You had many years to talk to Pat and seek his permission. Permission to delve into someone else's troubled life is not mine to give. I'm thrown by this. It takes me a few days to respond. I appreciate your wish to protect your brother, I write. The podcast I'm working on is not about Pat's Troubled Life. It's about my own. My note is careful. A few days later the reply is just as careful, saying I'm sorry that you have suffered so much and I have to say I didn't even know things were that bad. Pat indicated that you two were going along different paths in your careers and this caused impossible difficulties. I only knew for sure that he was never at peace, no matter how much he tried to get beyond the mental scars that happened in his childhood. I'm shaken by all of this. I'm not interested in a confrontation with anyone in his family. But all this drags me back to when Pat could make me feel so unworthy. At the same time, I now see who he became more clearly. He suffered from childhood abuse. I've learnt he lived on pennies a day. That he was a loner when he died. The man I'd once seen as a spontaneous, gregarious partner to explore the world with had never again strayed far from home. As my life became more expansive. His was shrinking. After the first few episodes of this podcast come out, I start to learn even more. A cousin of his reaches out and tells me that when she tried to leave an abusive relationship, Pat accused her of lying, defended her abuser and would taunt her about it at family events. All that happened not long after I'd divorced Pat, as if the anger and blame that he had piled on to me was transferred to her. And I am reminded that the person I thought I was marrying, he never really existed. I have my theories about how his own abuse translated into violence toward me. But I don't know for a fact how to draw that line from one to the other. I do know that his treatment of me left me with my own anger. I was never good enough, never smart enough. I was tough on myself and occasionally on those around me. It took me years to recognise my anger and to work on letting it go.

SOUNDCLIP

FARZANA: So how. How do you feel?

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: I have lots to tell you, Farzana.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: The day after I get home from Nova Scotia. I feel Farzana in on everything.

SOUNDCLIP

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Something told me he hadn't gotten married again. Something told me he was living alone. I didn't think he had lived a sad life. I was kind of surprised because I don't know. It's like the partial monster. I don't know if monster's the word, but the thing that you might be afraid of or that you've built up over the years and it's. Yes, it fell away very significantly yesterday.

FARZANA: Yeah. There's no monster anymore.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: No, there's no threat. There's not even a partial threat. There's no threat of. You can't tell that story. There's no threat of. I wanted to hurt you once saw hurt you again.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Not that long ago, I took my dog for a walk. She tugged on the leash just as I stepped onto a patch of ice. I ended up in surgery with a badly broken wrist. As I lay in the recovery room, I overheard the woman next to me talking on her phone. Pretty sure it was with her boyfriend. She wanted to know where he'd gone, why he wasn't at the hospital to take her home. I didn't know anything about her, but something in her voice got me wondering if she was okay in that relationship. And as I lay there eavesdropping, glancing at my newly wrapped wrist, I started thinking about all the women who end up in the same recovery room because of intimate partner violence. And how many of them have to go right back home to their abuser.

SOUNDCLIP

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: So as I was thinking more about the shame that I've carried and the blame that I carried, I realised that I have conflated blame and shame and pain. Hmm. Almost as if they were three threads braided together. Every time I felt them or looked at them, they were all together. In the course of talking to you and looking back at all of this. I've been able to separate those threads. I think I've come a long way in confronting that shame and being able to talk about this. I think I've also come a long way in recognising that I still carried a lot of blame and I'm letting that fall away. And as those things fall away, the thing that remains is something I identify as pain. I have allowed myself to understand that it was pretty bad. And when I realised that, I felt so good because the pain I can deal with. The pain is in my past.

FARZANA: Mm hmm.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: But I felt really good about the fact that I no longer had them wrapped around each other.

FARZANA: I think sometimes we can't get to the pain until we've done a bit of work around understanding the meaning. Right.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Yeah. Yeah. And I'm just starting to see more of the good things. Right. Like I was concentrating on where I thought I was weak. And now as I'm pulling along, I see where I'm strong.

FARZANA: And I think you were strong the whole time. You were just. What's the word like? You were detoured a little bit by this experience. That's what trauma does, right? It delays things. It gets you focussing on the healing of the trauma. So you're not in as much of a straight path as you might have been before. Right. Everybody has something that detours them or away leads them.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: I think that's a really nice way to put it, Farzana, because detours aren't dead ends. They just lead you around the trouble and put you back on that. That's a nice way to think of it that, you know, you can get back on a journey with your life.

FARZANA: Mm hmm.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: You know what I'm thinking? You know, when you finally let something go. It's like a Band-Aid. You got to pull it off and it doesn't really hurt. It's just a little bit of a pull. And maybe that's what I'm feeling. I feel it like as it. You know, washes away or. I like something, but I'm letting it go. Yeah, it's coming out. It's like literally leaving my body.

FARZANA: I think it is literally leaving your body.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Yeah, I think so, too.

FARZANA: Yeah.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: I like that.

FARZANA: Yeah, it's a good thing, right?

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Yeah, it's a very good thing.

FARZANA: Yeah.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Yeah.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: What I experienced will always be part of me. But after decades of carrying a secret, after a year of turning myself inside out in therapy, after putting it all out there in this very public way, I cannot tell you just how light I feel right now, how the shame I once couldn't even name is finally falling away. It's what I wish for any of you living with the burden of what was done to you. The shame is never ours to carry. It belongs to the abuser. And you, like me, are stronger than you think. You are not weak or indecisive. And you are worthy of a far better life. Please believe that. Because it's true.

PA: You've been listening to the Cbbc podcast. Welcome to Paradise, from renowned Canadian journalist and former host of The Current Anna Maria Tremonti. You can hear all the episodes on the CBC Listen app or wherever you get your podcasts. Now, all summer long will be presenting the best of CBC podcasts. Later this week will feature episodes from the series Stuff the British Stole. Throughout its reign, the British Empire stole a lot of stuff. And today those objects are displayed in museums and galleries around the world. And this podcast tells the stories of some of those artefacts, the tales of how they got to where they are today. Stuff the British Stole later this week on The Current. And that's our programme for today. Stay tuned to CBC Radio One for q. Bettye LaVette is one of soul music's great comeback stories. After career misfires in the sixties and seventies, LaVette was rediscovered in the 1990s. She's since performed at the inauguration of President Obama, received multiple Grammy nominations and released a series of critically acclaimed albums. Her album, Black Birds, focuses on her versions of songs made famous by black women and includes her timely take on Billie Holiday's Strange Fruit, which was released while protests over the killing of George Floyd are taking place around the globe. She'll speak with Talia Schlanger on Q, which is coming up next. I'm Peter Armstrong. I'm sitting in this week for Matt Galloway. Thanks for being here with me. Thanks for listening to The Current.

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