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The Current Transcript for July 20, 2022

Host: Duncan McCue

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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Our situation is critical because we are facing misery and hunger. Our children can no longer go to school. The government is useless.

DUNCAN MCCUE: People in Haiti are demanding something be done about the growing crisis there. Fuel shortages, food insecurity and intensifying violence have thrown the country into chaos. Hundreds of people have been killed by rival gangs this year. In 30 minutes, I'll speak with a Haitian human rights activist about what it will take to end the violence and stabilise the country. And then.

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He was caring. Sometimes he got quiet and I think it had to do with something in the school.

DM: The last episode of my podcast, Kuper Island, I speak with survivors from that residential school about what they remember happening to their schoolmate, Richard Thomas, and what could have led to his death. That's in an hour. But we begin with the pope's visit to Canada and what's expected from the apology to indigenous people. I'm Duncan McCue, sitting in for Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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True reconciliation will require forgiveness, says former AFN national chief ahead of Pope's visit

Guests: Phil Fontaine

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DM: On Monday, Pope Francis will officially apologize in Canada to indigenous people for the abuses they experienced at Catholic run residential schools. It follows his apology in April at the Vatican, former national chief of the Assembly of First Nations, Phil Fontaine, was at that event. He spoke with Matt Galloway just minutes after he heard the pope's apology.

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PHIL FONTAINE: I came here with great expectations that, though God did not include words that I heard today. But the Holy Father had an opportunity to listen most directly from survivors that spoke candidly and in a very straightforward manner about their own experiences. But even beyond my own expectations, and I'm still incredibly pleased about that because this has been the missing piece for a long time as you know, people have expressed very clearly and strongly that they couldn't move forward until they heard The Pope say, I am sorry. And they heard that today.

DM: Phil Fontaine waited a long time for those words. Back in 1990, he opened up publicly about the abuse he experienced at residential school. At first he was criticised by some Indigenous leaders for revealing what they knew to be true. Eventually, Fontaine's words would help open the floodgates. Now, as he awaits the pope's arrival in Canada, Phil Fontaine is here to reflect. Phil Fontaine, [Indigenous speech].

PHIL FONTAINE: [Indigenous speech]

DM: We heard you in that interview from the Vatican just minutes after you heard the apology from Pope Francis. How do you look back on that moment now when you heard the apology?

PHIL FONTAINE: I'm every bit as excited and pleased with the words that I heard in Rome. Time hasn't lessened the significance and depth of those words, they mean a lot to me. But I'm also expecting that when he's here to apologize, that he will expand on the words that were expressed by him in the general audience in Rome.

DM: Expand on the words. What do you mean by that?

PHIL FONTAINE: Well, when he apologized, he apologized for certain actions by individuals that were part of the Church, they worked in residential schools, they abused children. And so that's what he apologized most directly about. He didn't say the Catholic Church as an institution was the responsible party, therefore, I am apologizing on behalf of the Catholic Church. He didn't say anything like that. And so, there's an expectation that in Maskwacis he will add those words in some form.

DM: So his exact words were he apologised for the deplorable conduct of these members of the Catholic Church. So you would like him to expand that and acknowledge the the institutional wrongdoing of the church when he's here in Canada.

PHIL FONTAINE: That's true, because the Pope is the head of the Catholic Church worldwide. 1.2 billion Catholics belong to the church. And so, the Catholic Church had tremendous responsibility and influence over the implementation of the residential school policy, its methodology, its effect on children. And it wasn't split up in 70 legal entities. It was the Catholic Church that entered into a relationship, a legal relationship with the federal government to run schools for the government. And so they had a very significant role in the implementation of this terrible policy.

DM: When I hear the chat that you had with Matt from the Vatican, I mean, you sounded very encouraged that at that time you're sounding a little bit more stern today. What does the church need to prioritise when the pope is here?

PHIL FONTAINE: Well, don't don't forget, we weren't quite clear. That's what we would hear from the Holy Father in Rome. And so when he said, I am sorry, or he could have said, I am very sorry. Those were very important words. But in every situation like that, you reflect on what you heard, and you ask questions about whether the the Holy Father went far enough, and many concluded that he should have been more expansive and that's what he indicated he would be doing here is provide a more expansive apology.

DM: Will you be expecting him to address concerns about the papal bulls, for example, those edicts by the Catholic Church, which ended up leading to the doctrine of discovery? Do you expect to hear him say words about that?

PHIL FONTAINE: I'm not sure he will go that far. The papal bulls and the doctrine of discovery of more legal matters there. For example, the doctrine of Discovery is embedded in the U.S. judicial system as it is in Canada. And I don't know if he alone would be able to say, I rescind the papal bulls and the doctrine of discovery. You would have to engage with the governments of the United States and Canada to be able to do that. My own personal view is that he would go there.

DM: Should he?

PHIL FONTAINE: Well, I think there would have to be some very serious conversations and discussions with the two governments, the U.S. and Canada, to do that. And I'm excluding Portuguese and Spain in that in that respect, because the first papal bull really have to do with the Portuguese exploration of discovery to the new world. So I'm not certain that he will will go there. If he made a commitment to us that he would consider very seriously as part of the next steps from the apology done, that would be quite dramatic.

DM: You're talking about the Catholic Church trying to restore trust amongst indigenous peoples. Another thing that has been discussed is compensation. And of course, this is something that you know quite a bit about. I mean, you were deeply involved in the Catholic Church's fundraising campaign, its original fundraising campaign. Can can you talk to me about why that campaign fell short?

PHIL FONTAINE: Well, there were previous matters that emerged after. The apology from Harper, June 11, 2008. And then we had the Benedict not apology, but the...

DM: Expression of regret.

PHIL FONTAINE: The expression of regret and the audience. And there was an issue of pornography, child pornography by one of the bishops when he came back from a trip. I don't know if it was from the Philippines. He was a bishop from the East Coast. Parishioners simply weren't interested in providing any more money to this matter. You know, they read the stories, as we all did, about how much the federal government was was contributing to the financial settlement. And it was not insignificant. And so the prisoners had no no sympathy for our efforts. And we failed. We failed badly. I was part of the process and. It's a different story today with the unmarked graves that shocked Canadians and caused this issue to become an international story.

DM: Of course, because the Catholic bishops bishops have announced another fundraising campaign. And I wonder, Phil Fontaine, I mean, is it a different Catholic Church, however? I mean, the earlier fundraising efforts were called into a fiasco by the archbishop, an archbishop, is this going to be different?

PHIL FONTAINE: It wasn't a great effort. I mean, we tried hard. This one is so different. So completely different. We've had the the encounters with Francis at the Vatican. There is considerably more pressure on the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops to do the right thing, which means raise the money they promised us.

DM: You talk about the importance of the role of the church of of religious life in your community. Of course, the other strand or narrative is the abuse that was suffered at the Fort Alexander Residential School. And you spoke out in 1990 about that abuse. And, I mean, earlier this year, a retired priest from Fort Alexander was was charged with indecent assault. Arthur Masse. That was Arthur Masse. That is the school you were forced to attend. What did you think of when you heard those charges being laid?

PHIL FONTAINE: I reacted in disbelief. To be quite honest with you, Duncan. But then there's so much that happened in that school. And so much that I know went on in the schools. And the abuse took place. I'm well aware of numerous incidents. Physical abuse? Absolutely. Sexual abuse? Yes. And the deep seated attempts to similate us to do away with what is important to the community outside of the church. And so it was, I was shocked, actually, to tell you the truth, Duncan. I was shocked when I heard about this.

DM: You disclosed your own sexual abuse, as I mentioned, in 1990, and that had such a huge impact on the country and on survivors right across the country. Did your abuser ever face any consequences?

PHIL FONTAINE: Well, no. Gosh no. He died. He died years ago. He'd been to, I don't know how many schools. The last one was in Saskatchewan, I believe St. Philips. And he died in the sixties, early sixties. So, no. Nothing ever came of that.

DM: Arthur Masse is in his nineties. Now, how important are these efforts, do you think, to to seek accountability still at this at this point?

PHIL FONTAINE: Well, for the individuals that were directly affected, I think it's important for them. I don't know what it means for the larger community. Father Masse is what? 92. And. My own sense, Duncan. I. I mean, I must say this. I'm not into retribution. I really am not. And how can I be in favour of that?

DM: Why do you say that?

PHIL FONTAINE: Well. It's you know, it was a moment of time in my life where this abuse occurred. And that wasn't the only kind of abuse I experienced, mind you. And the. The main perpetrator is gone, he died. And there isn't much I can do about that, other than to pursue what I did, which was an inquiry, research so that we could write the story of the residential school experience, and then an apology. That's what I was after. And I know that when I made the disclosure with Barbara Frum, there are a whole number of civil suits that were launched in Manitoba by people that I knew that had been to various residential schools. And they started to convene these gatherings, healing gatherings. And I attended the first one for the Guy Hill School that is situated near DePaul, Manitoba. I was invited to the first annual Guy Hill Healing and Reconciliation gathering. That's quite a few years ago now.

DM: And you have been at the centre of this discussion about residential schools, right, since that disclosure and into the apology, the settlement agreement. Your words and actions have changed so much. It has taken a long time, though. What do you want now for you, for your children and your grandchildren?

PHIL FONTAINE: Well. I'm an older guy, and you're right, Duncan. I know I've lived a long life, a good life. And I've been blessed with so many opportunities. I've travelled. I've met so many people. Good people. Important people. At least in my opinion. And I've tried to convey the story of the residential school experience to my own children and grandchildren. And my son and daughter have been so incredibly understanding. Their depth of understanding is amazing. And they knew instinctively what I was talking about, if I can put it that way. And they've seen me at my most depressing moments about the residential school experience and they were incredibly supportive. My wife got me in here has been right beside me every step of the way and sometimes these steps were, the steps I took were pretty heavy, Duncan. This whole thing weighed me down considerably for years, years. And I struggled like you wouldn't believe. And I didn't know what to make of all of it, but I was fortunate and blessed that I had good people around me. And in fact, in a very curious way, I was able to reach out to the priests and nuns and that have been part of my life, particularly in one school, the one on the reserve, the Fort Alexander Indian Residential School. And I was able to strike up friendships with a number of them. And I used to spend a lot of time, a lot of my free time visiting these nuns and priests and in Saint Boniface. In fact, I still do when occasion present ourselves. There's one sister that wasn't in residential school, teach as a teacher. But I became friends with her and she sends me notes and articles and what have you.

DM: So Pope Francis will be here, and you're going to have a chance to. To have his ear, I expect. What are you going to say to him?

PHIL FONTAINE: Well, I'm not sure I will have an opportunity to speak to him as I did in Rome. But I'm going to be listening very, very carefully to what he has to say to us, because the apology, just more extensive expression of apology, will be delivered in Maskwacis. And I'm going to be a witness there, and I'm going to be anxious to hear what he has to say. But one thing I want to make very clear here, Duncan, people shouldn't look at this apology as the end of the story, it's just the beginning. We still have so much work to do to heal the past and to bring about true reconciliation. We ourselves have to forgive. Otherwise, the story never ends. And I believe that many, many people want to see this story end on a more positive note.

DM: Phil Fontaine, chi miigwech.

PHIL FONTAINE: Chi miigwech, Duncan.

DM: Phil Fontaine is former national chief of the Assembly of First Nations. CBC Radio will carry the Pope's apology in a special programme on Monday. The CBC News is next. And then.

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There's no need to cause the people pain. They will not be able to do so if they are determined to raise oil prices. Who set the country on fire and it will all disappear?

DM: Demonstrators in Haiti are protesting fuel shortages that have crippled the country and the situation has been made worse by out-of-control gang violence on the ground in Haiti. In six minutes, I'm Duncan McCue and you're listening to The Current.

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Ending the escalating violence and instability in Haiti

Guests: Jean-Gilbert Ndong, Monique Clesca

DM: Hi. I'm Duncan McCue and you're listening to The Current.

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DM: Still to come, the final episode of my podcast, Kuper Island. Richard Thomas died at Kuper Island Residential School, but the circumstances surrounding his death have always been questioned. Our team tracks down the last person to ever see Richard alive, searching for clues about what may have happened. But first, the growing chaos in Haiti.

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DM: It was a deadly week of gang violence and protests in Haiti.

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Speaker 2: Everyone must come together to revolt. Children can't walk on the streets of Port au Prince. We're tired. We can't live like this anymore. It's difficult. There's no way to live. There are bullets flying everywhere. Inside the house. We aren't safe and we can't go outside.

DM: Protesters braved bullets in the streets of Port au Prince in a desperate plea for safety and security. Between January and June this year, the United Nations documented 934 killings and hundreds of kidnappings in Haiti's capital alone. This past weekend was one of the deadliest in the city, where gunfire between rival gangs left close to 100 people dead. The chaos in the streets has made it hard for aid organisations to get Haitians help. Jean-Gilbert Ndong is the medical coordinator for Doctors Without Borders in Haiti. He joins me from Port au Prince. Hello, Jean-Gilbert.

JEAN-GILBERT NDONG: Hello.

DM: You just heard that protesters say they aren't safe outside or inside their homes. Bullets are flying everywhere. What are you seeing on the streets of Port au Prince.

JEAN-GILBERT NDONG: Or on Doctors Without Borders, as you know, is working in Haiti for the past 30 years. So we have two hospital, one in [unintelligible], and the other one in Tabarre. So we have been seeing an increase of vision coming, especially from [unintelligible] Soleil since the July 8th, Friday, July eight.

DM: What sort of injuries, what sort of issues are those patients presenting to medicines from here?

JEAN-GILBERT NDONG: So we are seeing a lot of patients who use trauma. A lot of patient with wounds. And we are also seeing some patients who are coming who are very, very tired because they are not being [unintelligible] food and medical care for several days.

DM: Food, water, fuel. I mean, it's all scarce in Haiti. What are people telling you about their struggles just to get by?

JEAN-GILBERT NDONG: I mean, we have a place named Brooklyn which is in disarray where people have been blocked for several days, unable to go out, unable to receive potable water, unable to receive food, unable to receive medical care. And with the support of our organisation and the support of some of the priests who are working in the area, we are able to organise a kind of humanitarian corridor and to take them out of this place. And we did it like three times and we have been able to rescue arrested more than 50 people.

DM: I understand that that it's women and children that are most affected. Can you tell me about that?

JEAN-GILBERT NDONG: Yes. I mean, women and children are more affected, but particularly in this area, we have everybody who is affected. Women, children, men, everybody is affected. We have the chance to evacuate, obviously, civilians. But it's a very big issue. But for the past hours, we have been seeing a lot of mobilisation from the Haitian government, from the U.N., from the W.H.O. and ICRC were the main organisation, were working before us.

DM: I want to ask you about the government response, but but before I do, I mean, can you just tell me a little bit about the gang violence and how it's impacting the work you're doing?

JEAN-GILBERT NDONG: I mean, to be honest with you, we are not really a firm about that game as well as we are just seeing the result of what is going on this year. You are seeing a lot of wounded patient. We are seeing a lot of people saying that there is war going on, on the field, a lot of shootings, but we do not have that much information about the gang violence, obviously.

DM: Do you have to at any point interact with gang leaders at all?

JEAN-GILBERT NDONG: As you know, MSF, as a humanitarian organisation, we really working for our principles which are neutrality and impartiality. So we are working with all the actors involved.

DM: So how is the government responding to this crisis?

JEAN-GILBERT NDONG: I mean, they are trying to do their best. So they I've been meeting with, uh, the mayor of Italy, and they are the one leading the humanitarian corridors. But the main actors of the response for sure, our organisation, which is Doctors Without Borders, W.H.O., ICSC and other United Nations agencies.

DM: As you said, Jean-Gilbert, I mean, Medecins Sans Frontier has been there for a long time. But but it seems that the the violence is escalating. What are you going to do? Are you going to be able to continue to work there?

JEAN-GILBERT NDONG: For the time being. Yeah, yeah. And we wish to do more in terms of humanitarian response. So we just open one of the operation [unintelligible] in our hospital there to be able to bring a proper response to what is going on on the field. So since I would say a couple of days, we already have a surgeon there and we have all the medical team mobilised and they are doing the first mobilisation of patients there. And the other patients are sent to Tabarre, which is the biggest hospital where we can do more in terms of medical offer.

DM: And what's the biggest challenge facing you then in the days and weeks ahead that.

JEAN-GILBERT NDONG: The biggest challenge that we are really facing here is the procurement of blood. It's very, very difficult to have blood and the majority of patients coming to us. I told my patient, And do you really need blood? So we are really making an appeal to all the debate, to all the actors to see how they can help the National Office of Blood to increase our capacity. Because actually it's not the case and it's very difficult to have blood and to be able to deliver the proper care to the patients.

DM: Thank you for updating us on the situation. Stay safe.

JEAN-GILBERT NDONG: Thank you very much and thank you for taking us in that part of our programme. Thank you very much.

DM: Jean-Gilbert Ndong is the medical coordinator for Doctors Without Borders in Haiti. It's been a year since President Jovenel Moise was assassinated at his home. Those who planned the killing have not been identified and the country's security situation has become worse. Monique Clesca is a retired United Nations development official and is a member of the Commission for a Haitian Solution to the crisis. And she joins me now. Hello.

MONIQUE CLESCA: Yes, hello. Thank you very much for having me. It's truly an honour.

DM: You live in Port au Prince. What have the past few weeks been like for you?

MONIQUE CLESCA: It has been sheer terror. And I think the last few weeks added on to the weeks before that and to the months before that and the sense the guy had of July 2018. Haiti has been in the midst of a terror. Organised terror created chaos, but also a response, trying to get a response from civil society. So we are horrified by what is going on. We have been terrorised in our homes and as the monsoon dog said, we are people that theorise the weather inside or outside of their home. And the woman who testified before A said that. But it is created chaos. It is created terror. And I think that's what makes it very, very difficult to deal with. So in addition to sending my sympathies to everyone and it really, truly is to everyone, not only the ones who are directly affected telling its families, but Haitians in general. We are all traumatised and terrorised and horrified and they by what is going on. So we need to come together in this. So it's been extremely difficult for all of us.

DM: You say those words created terror, organised terror. I mean, can you tell us what I mean? What kind of political vacuum did the assassination of President Moise live?

MONIQUE CLESCA: I think we have to go before the assassination of President Emile. Yes, because the assassination happened in the context. The Haitian state, I always say that we worked on liberty, but we didn't work on equality as we should have. Because Haiti is a state where you have about 50% of the population that has health services, education in terms of quality. It's not a working extremely well for us. The state is not providing security. Jovenel Moise had become an autocrat, is saying We he's going to have a new constitution and saying we are going to have elections. But, you know, I think we have to be very careful. The political party that Jovenel Moise was representing had not had an election in ten years. So they had the opportunity to do this. This is the context in which Jovenel Moise was assassinated. And while we send our sympathies to his family, but we also asked justice for him as we ask Justice for Antoine and declare a form that Duval and others who were assassinated also under Jovenel Moise rule. There were 13 massacres, so Jovenel Moise assassination was one point within the last practically four years since the riots of July 2018, when youths rose up and said, Wait a minute. Why is it that the state of Haiti, government of Haiti is not providing services for us? Why is it that we are suffering so much? So there was a cry for social justice. So the created chaos, the created terror is what has happened with the government of Pastika, which has said We are not providing services to Haitians.

DM: So who exactly is it? Who exactly is in charge right now then?

MONIQUE CLESCA: Well, I think it's a very good question. According to human rights organisations, about 50% of the Haitian territory is controlled by gangs. So do we have a gangs? The gangs in the beginning were created. There are creation of two things one lack of services and a dignified. Find living circumstances of people and youths are revolting and taking up arms. And secondly, there is the government that has taken as auxiliaries of gangs because the United Nations human rights organisations have signified that a government has provided arms. Government has provided cars. Government has provided some equipment to the gangs. Others still controlling the gangs. We do not know, but we do know that it is a construct that government, the political government, has put together. Different gangs have encouraged their alliance, as has the U.N., which created a kind of mega gang called the G9. So, well, there is out war. There is a war between the gangs to gain more territory. And just before, you know, I think it's important to say this so that they can also control elections. They can control the space, who moves, who gets out, etc.. So I think it is important to know that the gains did not just spring out like this. They started out as a creation. They are proxies to control the population, to terrorise the population, to to remove our freedom, to be able to move, to go to the market, to go to the bank, to go to work.

DM: And you talk about, I mean, government supplying the gangs with weapons. The UN has called for member nations to stop those that flow of weapons to gangs in Haiti and the illicit weapons trade. What do we know? What do we know about where.

MONIQUE CLESCA: Respect for the U.N.? I think the call is coming a little late. You know, it has been practically four years now that protest movements have been saying, where are all the arms coming from? And why is it that the U.N., from Madame La Lim to the secretary general, said that an alliance of gangs was good for Haiti? Where in the world have you ever heard something like this? So, yes, we are glad that the U.N. finally woke up. Member states are saying, let us control, but the arms have come. The Haiti has become the kidnapping capital of the world, under the watch of the U.N. and of Canada and of the United States, better yet, they have encouraged it.

DM: And and so so often in the past in Haiti, I mean, the international community has has really kind of reached into Haitian politics and been accused of picking winners and losers. Is that what is happening again?

MONIQUE CLESCA: That is what has happened. And the international community, including Canada, reached out and told me with a tweet, you form your government. So, yes, the international community has its knee on the neck of Haiti. And what we are saying and civil society really has risen up over the year and a half, that the commission has started to say it is time to stop. We Haitians, what a different kind of state. We want a state that is not predatory. We want a state that provides services. We want the international community to step back and leave us so that we can a construct a democracy. Once they get involved, they got involved last time and put Michel Martelly in power. They got involved and then put a royalty in power. We are saying, no, stop this, he says.

DM: And now you're saying to the international community, you're saying to the international community to step back. But what would you like to see countries like Canada do to try and stop the violence that's happening right now?

MONIQUE CLESCA: I don't think it's Canada's load to stop the violence right now, and I think that's the kind of reversal that we want. It is Haitian society. It is Haitian government that must be a sovereign state so that we have a new political direction. And then we can say to others, to our friends like Canada and the United States and the U.N., this is the kind of help we need. This is the kind of support we want you to provide. It is not up to Canada, for example, to organise a security conference and. He comes and speaks for 10 minutes. This is humiliating. It is a constant humiliation. And we want that to stop. We want us to have a new political order, a new political direction. Where Haiti we are. We say we want no impunity. We want no corruption. We want to provide services for our citizens. Of course, we realise we know our limitations. We know that we cannot do it alone. And we know that we can ask our friends in the international community, including Canada, to help us. But it is not up to them to decide what we need, what form of government we should have, when we should have elections. Who should be directing the country? This is not the goal of the international community. So we ask them to step back. The Haitian solution we have proposed is the Montana accord that we have developed after wide consultation with different sectors, civil society, different religious sectors, as well as all political parties, and we put it on the table are since August 30th of last year, it's going to be one year. And it is a Haitian solution that has a governance structure with a president, a new prime minister.

DM: Absolutely, there needs to be a solution. So thank you very much for sharing some of those perspectives, Monique.

MONIQUE CLESCA: Thank you very much for giving us the opportunity. And we are they are really working with the Haitian people, healing them and saying this is the Haitian solution, the Montana accord.

DM: Thank. Monique Clesca is a journalist and a human rights activist and a member of the Commission for a Haitian Solution to the Crisis. I'm Duncan McCue, and you're listening to The Current.

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People here at Grassy Narrows First Nation rely on the land and the water for food and for healing. For more than 40 years now, they've been trying to figure out whether the environment is what's killing them. That's because Mercury was dumped in the water upstream.

DM: That's CBC reporter Jody Porter at the Grassy Narrows First Nation in 2016. Jody was a senior reporter with CBC Thunder Bay, Ontario. For over two decades. She covered many stories in northwestern Ontario, but was most noted for her dedication and diligence in telling First Nations stories with humanity. Jody died yesterday after a lengthy illness. She'll be fondly remembered and greatly missed by her colleagues, including me across Canada. Her work was awarded the Debwewin Citation from the National Black Nation for Excellence, and she received a massey College Clarkson laureate in recognition of public service. Here's some of Jodi's documentary, Children of the Poisoned River, about first nations youth living in Grassy Narrows.

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JODY PORTER: The truth the young people are seeking is this simple and this complex. Everyday life is more difficult here in Grassy Narrows than nearly anywhere else in Canada. Both the water and the people carry the scars of industrial mercury poisoning. It's estimated it will take a decade to clean the river, longer to heal families, hurt physically and emotionally. Judy de Silva is one of the Grassy Narrows members that has been most outspoken about the mercury and its health impacts. The 55 year old grandmother arranged for three traditional Anishinaabe medicine men to conduct the ceremonies. They took place at a site near the Reserve, where De Silva and others from Grassy Narrows have been maintaining a logging blockade for more than a decade. There are fears that more clear cut logging in the area will contribute to the mercury contamination of the land and the people here, while continuing to enrich far away forest companies.

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JUDY DE SILVA: One of the main issues that we discovered in doing this blockade and doing the environmental protection is environmental racism, where a lot of first nations are live below mills and that has to stop. So I think the these are the kind of things we have to tackle as using our voices to to bring those issues out. And it has to stop. That we're not expendable that we are important to the world, the world community and our children have to feel that.

JODY PORTER: In a place where non-interference in the lives of others is a cultural value. And in a community where children just a generation ago were torn from their parents to be indoctrinated as Christians at residential school, adults are unlikely to intervene unless asked. But Judy de Silva says help is waiting.

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JUDY DE SILVA: Our kids and Grassi is sometimes disconnected from the from the earth and the video games and all the TV. It might interfere with that connection, but it's right here and it's up to them, you know, to reach out to people that know the land, to say, hey, can I go with you hunting? Or if you're going fishing, can I go with you? It's up to them, but we don't force it on them.

JUDY DE SILVA: For now, the teens are finding comfort in being together, being creative, making music. It's something Darwin Fobister says can make a difference. But like all we want is change. All we want is, you know, things to be done. I wish the I wish the leadership would listen to the youth. The laments of young people at Grassy Narrows are in some ways familiar to young people anywhere. And their solution, turning to music and social media isn't unique either. But the challenges they meet each day are.

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When you compare a healthy person to a person with mercury poisoning, it's like it's not like- it's not normal, right? Like you can lifting simple and you can't even like, you know, like you're too shaky. You lose memory. Like you lose sensation. You lose everything like you lose- it affects a lot. And it's getting passed down generation after generation.

DM: That's some of the documentary Children of the Poisoned River by CBC journalist Jody Porter. Jody died on Tuesday. [|ndigenous speech] Jody. Coming up after our regional update, the final episode of my podcast, Kuper Island. I'm Duncan McCue and you're listening to The Current.

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The final episode of CBC podcast Kuper Island

DM: I'm Duncan McCue and you're listening to The Current. Today we're entering the final episode of my podcast, Kuper Island. Earlier in the series, I met with Richard Thomas, his sister Belvie, who still has questions about her brother's death at that residential school. In this episode, I meet with one of the last people to see Richard alive decades ago and try to piece together what really happened to him. And a warning that we are talking about abuse, sexual abuse of children, suicide and the lasting trauma of residential school. Please take care while listening.

SOUNDCLIP

DM: Every child matters. That's the slogan that's come to represent a movement to acknowledge the damage done by the residential school system. In this podcast, you've heard one child's name over and over. Richard Thomas. The boy who died at the Kuper Island School who so many wanted us to know about. Here's the official version of how he died. On June 2nd, 1966, his last seen by the Oblates at breakfast. It's not until late that night they realise he's missing. Then two Oblates find Richard hanging in the gym. Police are called in and conclude it was a suicide. During the investigation, police interview three of his classmates. Two of those boys have since passed away, but one is still alive. The one deemed to be most credible by police. He's now in his sixties. He's hard of hearing, which he blames on all the hits to his head, delivered by the Oblates of Kuper. He was extremely difficult to track down. So after months of trying, when I finally managed to reach Donny Sampson on the phone, I asked to record the call. [To Donny] Did you know Richard?

DONNY: Yeah, he was. He was my senior year, so.

DM: And it turned out to be the kind of call I'd never be able to recapture in person. So that's why the audio sounds the way it does. [To Donny] He was your senior?

DONNY: Yeah. Yeah. Kind of give you your guidance of what's right and wrong at the school?

DM: Yeah. What do you remember about him?

DONNY: He was caring. Sometimes he got quiet, but I think it had to do with something with the school?

DM: What do you mean?

DONNY: Well, he hung himself.

DM: Donny tells me Richard got quiet and it had something to do with the school. Through the muffled receiver and memories over five decades old. He and his wife, Janice, add one more piece to the puzzle of how Richard ended up dead hanging in the school's gym. I'm Duncan McCue and this is Kuper Island Episode eight, the final episode. Every Child Matters. So Monday I started getting on the horn with Donny, and I tried about four times nothing. And then Tuesday afternoon, I got them on the road. And a woman answered and she's yelling at him and he's driving and he's deaf can't hear anything like who's this woman? And I'm like, okay, we finally got him and like, should I do this thing on the side of the road? Like, Oh, we're driving down. How about at dinnertime? - So I'm filling in my producers, Martha and Jody on my call with Donny - So Richard was Donny's mentor. So the senior boys were assigned to junior boys, and there was a lot of brutality from the seniors to the juniors. And Richard wasn't like that. He took care of the other children. And Donny feels very lucky that he had him as a senior. So then we started to get into it about what happened, and he knew that the questions were coming. [To Donny] So you mentioned Richard hanging.

DONNY: Yeah.

DM: Can you tell me about that day?

DONNY: We were playing in the gym where they're playing shadow tag...

DM: And he was in the gym that night and they were playing shadow tag, which involved turning lights on and off. So the kids were all running around and they'd turn the lights off. And they'd all run around in the dark. And then they turned the lights on again. And Richard was the one that was operating the lights. And then he remembers the lights going off for a long period of time. And then not knowing what to do. And then when the lights came back on, Richard was hanging.

JODY: Oh mMy God!

MARTHA: My God!

DM: So you found him?

DONNY: Yeah. When they turn the light on [unintelligible], he was hanging on that light fixture.

DM: So this is where I started to get very confused, like very confused because I was like, how long were the lights off? Was it an accident? And he said, No, it was not an accident. And he was very emphatic. At this point, the woman starts intervening quite a bit because she's basically translating for me. And then she says, tell him about Defour. And so Donny says, I think Defour was abusing Richard. And I said, What? So it turns into a three way conversation. And I'm like, I have to ask, who are you? She's his wife. She went to the school and she's Charlie. Turns out she's James and Tony's sister.

JODY: What! Okay. James and Tony. Sister. Wow.

MARTHA: Janice Charlie.

DM: Janice Charlie.

JODY: Wow. So everyone's connected in this story.

MARTHA: What are you thinking at that moment? What's going through your head?

DM: I was shocked that it was Defour. Because we have had suspicions about Richard being abused. We've had one suggestion that he was molested and killed by a different priest, which we've never been able to seek any other confirmation of. But that name was out there. And so we've been trying to figure that out. It put together so many different elements of everything that we've been investigating to here that Defour I had this awful relationship with Richard. Back in episode two, Tony and James told me that brother Bryan Defour was the first school official to sexually abuse them in the basement of the Defour family home in the suburbs of Montreal. Before was the one who took the Kuper Island Drum and Fife Band to Expo 67. But this is the first time we've heard someone connect Defour to Richard. And then Janice starts to take over and tell her story. They knew that there was something going on in the gym, so Janice and her friend ended up going into the gym and they saw Richard hanging there. Janice tells me there were a lot of kids in the gym witnessing this scene. They were all screaming and crying. [To Janice] This is really gruesome, Janice, but I need you to... If... If... So was he hanging when you saw him?

DONNY: Yes. He was just swinging back and forth.

DM: So they described him hanging off the ground. He had been-

JODY: What's not in the report?

DM: That's obviously not what's in the report and it's not the picture at all. In the police report, Richard's body is partly on the ground and police say it was Brother Defour and another Oblate who discovered Richard. Well, after bedtime, not the children. So then I talked about when the police came and I started asking about the police and Donny immediately goes, Yeah, they interrogated me. I said, What do you mean interrogated you? And he said, Oh, he said, They just kept asking me questions over and over and over and over and over again. I remember them just the police asking me over and over and they wouldn't stop. [to Donny] Donny, can I ask you this? Managed to find the autopsy report for Richard. It details the police report into what they think happened. And so he talked about interviewing you. Would you mind if I read that to you?

DONNY: Yeah.

DM: Okay. So this is the statement of Donald Samson, age ten years of the Kuper Island Residential School. Yesterday after supper, I went into the gym - you told him. Richard Thomas was in there. He was playing with a rope that leads up to hold the movie screen. Richard was making a knot, and he made a loop in the end of the rope. He was lying on his back on the floor and he was pulling on the rope. He threw the rope up in the balcony. Then he went up on the balcony and tied the rope around a fastener. Then he came down and asked us if we wanted to play basketball. We played basketball for a while and then Richard told us it might be our bedtime. Then we went out and someone shouted, Bedtime. Richard went up the stairs to the balcony and started reading the New Testament. Ray and Jemmy and I went into bed. So that's what the police officer was saying that you told him. Does any of that make sense to you? [To Jody and Martha] And that's where Donny started to get ruffled. He started to say, I can't remember. I can't remember. And he said, I don't remember a rope. And Janice jumps in and said, Sometimes he tells me this story. It comes up when he's dealing with things.

JANICE: But some days he'll bring it up and I just sit and listen to him. Now, I know he doesn't talk about a rope. He doesn't talk about a Bible. It just talks about Richard turning off the lights. And when the lights finally go on and he sees Richard.

DM: Yeah.

JANICE: Hanging, swing in there.

DM: So you've heard this him tell the story before. You've never heard him talk about the rope or the Bible before?

JANICE: No.

DM: Here's the last thing. She said, We were young. We were all small. But she said the older students started talking about before having killed him. And I said, What are you talking about? And she said, Well, after they left, knew the relationship that Richard had with Defour. How Defour picked on him. And they think that Defour killed him. And that's how that story started to circulate. So I said, How is that possible, given what Donny just told me about this period of time that it was in the dark? How could that have happened? And she said, I don't know. She said, I wasn't there. But that's what the older students talked about. But she said, I know that Defour had it in for Richard. That's all I know. And then she says to Donnie, Do you think? Do for killed him? Or do you think he committed suicide? And Donnie says, I think he committed suicide. I just want to say that that conversation was super hard because they're... They're both traumatised. They saw him hanging. There's no doubt in my mind about that. How it happened. I don't know. And then I ask a difficult question. But one I need to ask so I understand Donnie clearly whether he'd been sexually abused. And Donnie, what about you?

JANICE: Were you sexually abused by any of the priests or the brothers?

DONNY: Brother Defour. Used to have those showers doors open so they can come in and out.

DM: So I don't want to ask details, Donny, but I need to be really clear. You're saying, brother Defour a sexually abused you?

JANICE: Girl He sexually abused you, brother Defour?

DONNY: He touched me, yeah.

DM: This information about brother Defour that he targeted Richard and may have sexually abused him will all be new information to Richard's sister Belvie. After all the trust she's put in us. I feel like the most respectful thing to do is tell her all we've learnt. But that's not going to be easy. Coffee delivery.

BELVIE: Good morning.

DM: How are you?

BELVIE: Good, thank you.

DM: We get settled and I pull out the envelopes. Belvie seems keen to hear what we found. [To Belvie] Let me just tell you what I'm doing. Okay, so part of what we were trying to do was. Was figure out as much information about Richard as we could. And I think we've learnt a lot.

BELVIE: Really?

DM: Well about who he was. Yeah. I have a real sense of who he was as a boy. Mm. And I can see why you cared for him so much.

BELVIE: Yeah.

DM: Everybody that we've talked to that ever met him was just like he was extraordinarily kind. In a place that was brutal, he was not. You talk to us about the death certificate. But in trying to find the death certificate, we also discovered that there was a full autopsy done.

BELVIE: Hmm.

So there was a coroner's investigation.

BELVIE: Mm hmm.

DM: And they returned to us an 18 page report.

BELVIE: Wow. Wow. Is there anything important in there that you think I should know all about? I mean, you know, like, if there's if it's... If it says that he committed suicide, I don't want to hear it. I just don't want to hear it because it's not true.

DM: Bellevue decides not to read the report, but asks me to summarise it. What it has is it's written by the police officer for the most part. It lays out the version of events that the police officer observed or was told.

BELVIE: By the priests.

DM: Yes.

BELVIE: Yeah.

DM: Well, why do you ask that?

BELVIE: Because they're liars.

DM: So the officers conclusion was that it appeared to be a suicide. What the priests, the priest and the two brothers, based on what they told him, they said there was no apparent reason for him to do that. The principal said that he was doing well in school, that he was looking forward to going on further in school. But he didn't seem despondent or melancholy.

BELVIE: Yeah. You know, like like I said, more or less that I just wanted to clear his name of suicide. You know.

DM: This is hard for me to say, Belva, but I do want to say this because I think you're going to hear this. I guess I've come to the conclusion based on what we've learnt that he was hanging, which is awful and really upsetting.

BELVIE: Yeah.

DM: How it happened.

BELVIE: Well, I'll never know, I guess. There was one boy that, you know, he really wanted to talk to me. And, you know, after after Richard died, it was painful. And I just told him to leave me alone. And he never, ever came back to me after.

DM: But I'm pretty sure two of them have passed away.

BELVIE: Yeah.

DM: But one of them was still alive. And we found him.

BELVIE: Oh, really? Wow!

DM: Wow. His name's Donny Samon.

BELVIE: Donny Sampson.

DM: He's traumatised as well. Deeply. He hasn't told that story to many people, I would say.

BELVIE: I don't think a lot of them did tell that story. You know, like.

DM: So Richard was his charge.

BELVIE: Oh, really? Wow.

DM: Yeah.

BELVIE: Holy cow.

DM: I ended up talking with Donny's wife as well because she was like, tell him about brother Defour. And I. Is that a name that you've heard before?

BELVIE: I've heard that name. Yeah.

DM: I wanted to tell you about brother Defour, his name was Brian Defour, simply because we have been told that Brother Defour was particularly mean to Richard. We've also learnt to sense that Brian Defour was an abuser. A sexual abuser. Mhm.

BELVIE: Oh God. That school was horrible. It was horrendous there, you know. And like I said it took me 14 years of counselling to start to even talk about it and stuff like that openly.

DM: Can I ask you this, Bill? Because. Because, because I'm not a counsellor and this is me telling you this information as you guys kind of had me in to say, nervous would not be the right word, but concerned that I don't hurt you any worse than you already been hurt.

BELVIE: This must be hard on you, too.

DM: Why do you say that?

BELVIE: Just hearing all these stories.

DM: Or Belvie? I've done, I've been doing residential school stories for 20 years. So. So you think you hear the worst and then you hear another one?

BELVIE: Yeah. Yeah.

DM: That, that's what I find really tough is that it just never ends. How bad the stories were, what you guys experienced. Yeah. One of the things that I've found out is that you've told his story for a long time to a lot of different people.

BELVIE: Mm hmm.

DM: You haven't forgotten him, and you have fought for him for a really long time.

BELVIE: Yeah. And it's about time, I guess. You know, like, I'm ready to meet him. I am 75. I mean, people usually don't live until their nineties, you know, and I doubt if I'm going to live that long.

DM: Can I ask you a silly question? When you see him on the other side, what do you think? What do you think he'll say?

BELVIE: Oh, gosh, I don't know. Been so long. Jeez you gotten old. What happened to you?

DM: I hope you know what a pleasure and an honour and how much I've learnt from just sitting with you. It's one of the joys of my job is that I get to meet people and yes, I get to talk about tough things and that's not always fun. But I learnt so much from you and so thank you.

[Vocalizing]

DM: Penelakut is a community that's kept their heart close to their chests for a long time, but that's changing. In the summer of 2021, Elders invited their first nation neighbours to join them in a march to honour the children who died in Keeper Island. They expected 100 or so people might attend. 3000 people showed up. Indigenous and non-Indigenous people side by side, many wearing orange shirts that said Every Child Matters.

JAMES: It's incredible. It's very touching. I'm very moved.

DM: James and Tony. Charlie took the microphone on a stage in front of that massive crowd on the unceded lands of the Hulkamanian people. First, James, who let his anger flash.

JAMES: This was private land now. We never sold it. They never got no sale from us. you're so wrong. And we going through all these wrongs year after year, decade after decade. When I enjoy the change? When?

DM: Then Tony, who spoke of healing.

TONY: Children should never be buried at any school. Children go there to learn. They go there to share. They go there to have fun. They go there to have friends. When I walked down to the fairway this morning, I see old people walking down here with orange T-shirts. That is change that is happening here within communities. This tell me you're learning. They're starting to understand what happened here.

DM: James and Tony didn't let Kuper Island destroy what they have. Love and survival. It's what sustains them still. But that's not the end of this story.

FERGIE: Angus Gibson. Line up.

DM: That's James's son, Fergie, the teacher gathering up the kids in the school gym on a Friday afternoon. This First Nations run school looks nothing like the ones their grandparents and great grandparents and great great grandparents attended. It looks like a modern longhouse, warm and welcoming. Welcoming of artwork everywhere. This is no special occasion, just kids in oversized hoodies and running shoes, blowing off steam at the end of the week. Dancing. And these kids, they're so into it. They're going to be doctors, teachers, journalists. They'll be land defenders and language speakers. They'll be parents. They'll be proud.

FERGIE: Our people have been through so much. The governments and churches try to christianise and assimilate us and destroy us. But we're still here. They've been through enough. Our elders. Now it's up to our generation to keep it going. To revive that language. To revive the culture. And we're doing it. We are.

DM: We are here. Our ancestors went through a lot to get us here. Telling this story is my responsibility. Now that you've listened, it's yours.

DM: [Indigenous speech] to the people of Penelakut. Kuper Island was produced by Jodie Martinson and Martha Troyan, and our senior producer is Jeff Turner. If you're a survivor or intergenerational survivor and you can reach the Indian Residential Schools Crisis line if you need support at 1 866 925 4419. And that's our programme for today. Stay tuned to Radio One for q with guest host Angeline Tetteh-Wayoe. I'm Duncan McCue in for Matt Galloway. Gi miigwech. Thanks for listening to The Current.

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Wednesday July 20, 2022 Full Transcript

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