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The AIH Transcript for July 15, 2022

ROBYN BRESNAHAN: Hello. I'm Robyn Bresnahan.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

RB: Under fire, and still not over fire. Once again, the village of Lytton, B.C. is threatened by a wildfire -- and this time, our guest has left town rather than watch his home burn down again.

CH: Escaping the heart of darkness. The common-law spouse of the man who killed 22 people in Nova Scotia testifies that she's haunted by what happened that night -- and by her own decision to flee the gunman.

RB: Comfort food. Two months after a racist massacre, a supermarket in Buffalo is reopening -- and a local activist tells us it's the first step in his community's path towards healing.

CH: Expanding the poop deck. After two mostly idle years, it's full steam ahead for Alaskan cruises -- which means that once again, Canada's West Coast is being inundated with sewage.

RB: You've got to be kitten. Staff at Boston's gigantic Logan airport spend weeks engaged in a high-stakes game of cat and mouse -- in which they are the cat, and the mouse is… also a cat.

CH: And… counting their unlucky stars. A bad reputation can kill a restaurant -- and that's what scammers across the U.S. are banking on, when they leave fake one-star reviews, and use them to blackmail the owners.

CH: As It Happens, the Friday Edition. Radio that regrets to inform you that Texas is not the only lone-star state.

Part 1: Lytton Fires, Tops Supermarket Reopening, Restaurant Blackmail

Lytton Fires

Guest: Patrick Michell

CH: If any sense of normalcy had begun to return to Lytton, British Columbia, it's going up in flames. Two weeks after the one-year anniversary of the last wildfire, a new one is burning. In 2021, people on the west side of town watched in horror as the fire destroyed their neighbours' homes across the river. Now, people are watching from the east while the western half evacuates. And for many, it's a traumatic reminder of what it was like this time last year. Patrick Michell's home burned down in 2021. He and his family couldn't take seeing it happen again. We reached him at a hotel in Chilliwack.

RB: Patrick When you first saw the fire approach Lytton this week, how did you react?

PATRICK MICHELL: I was on a Zoom meeting with provincial representatives pertaining to climate change, and there was a power flicker, and I heard a sound, and I looked out the RV door, and I saw the plume of smoke. My heart dropped. You know, it's… again, I called my wife and I said, Honey, there's a fire. And you could just see the reaction and her body and in her heart. It's so traumatic to be experiencing this again.

RB: What memories in particular did it bring back right away from?

PM: First thing that triggered for me was June 30th of 2021, at approximately 5. I was at work, and my wife texted me and said that Lytton was on fire. And about three minutes later, she said that our reserve was on fire. And then, about three minutes later, our house was on fire. So I was at work last year. And my first response this year was, I left my job last Friday so I could be home for my family in case another emergency occurred. And so, for me, there was a relief to be home. But also anxiety because we were going to be doing this over again.

RB: I understand that others in the community had really visceral reactions when they saw the fire. There's actually some physical reaction. Can you tell us about that?

PM: You know, so my wife started shaking. The tears flow. It's hard to describe precisely how she responded because she was the one who had to flee the fire last year with little and no notice. And so you went outside. You could start seeing the people coming out of their home. So the fire was on the west side of the Fraser River, and so last year's fire was on the east side in the town of Lytton. And so, where we're all living, so people were coming out, you could see people grabbing laptops, they were starting to put stuff into things. So there was… there was palatable fear. I saw two individuals just… just stop, and they puked.

RB: Hmmm.

PM: And so, you look at this, and so this is retraumatizing, and it's hard to… to live this normal life when there's always this fear, what next? When? So, you could see it evident in body language. There are people just wandering around in a daze. And these are people who weren't in a direct line of this fire. The fire was across the river at that time. And the plume of smoke hadn't even achieved high altitude yet. So, the fear… fear gripped us.

RB I can't imagine. I mean, are you talking to anybody? Are you getting the support you need right now?

PM: Fortunately, the fire was different from the previous one because we didn't have the extreme heat dome. There was still lots of moisture left in the soil. So this fire was advancing slower than last year's. And so, the resources were being deployed. And one of the things that you'll see here is that the younger generation, even though they had experienced the Lytton fire last year, they immediately got in their vehicles and started driving down to the CNR trestle. So, for those people who had the mobility and the… and the ability, they went over to her to help as quickly as they can. There was a young lady over there who had posted on Facebook she needed help. She… she has four children. The fire was within 50 yards of her home. So immediately, people started running towards the fire rather than running away from it. But for people of my generation who didn't have the ability, obviously, they were very concerned. And so, we basically stood around. We spoke to each other. We're going to be okay. The fire's over there. You know which way the wind is going. We set up our hoses. We didn't turn on the water because we know the water needs to be saved for fire protection purposes. But in case the ember storm started landing, everybody in my neighbourhood had cut their lawns. So, we… we were preparing for yesterday for a year, in the hopes that it didn't happen. And it did. And it's ongoing now.

RB: I understand your sons are fighting this fire, is that correct?

PM: So, Thomas is my youngest son. And so he went home and got his work clothes as much as he could. He… he fought fires last year for the entire season. And he's currently at a place known as Six Mile. And Six Mile is on the east side of the Fraser River. And the ember storm has caused the fire to jump the Fraser River. So he's battling on the frontlines there. My oldest son, Anthony, his wife, lost her house in the fire last year, so he's staying closer to home. So he's currently patrolling the fields all up and down from Six Mile down to the town of Lytton, looking for sparks. And so, when a spark lands, they're able to get into the dry grass and put them out. I don't think either one of them are getting paid. It's just what they're doing. My middle son, Joseph, wanted to come up, but he's a roofer in Chilliwack. And so, we've asked him to stay down here and work because he still needs to work to pay his rent down here. So in terms of my… that's my son's. But at the same time, my nieces and nephews, this younger generation, the people who have the ability to respond, they didn't run away from the fire. They made sure their families were safe, and they picked up their shovels, and they headed towards the fire. So I know that my nephew Blaine is currently on building watch right in the heart of the fire. My… my… my niece, Theresa, she's over there on the frontlines. So there's so many of the youth of Lytton are out there. They've all, in one way, shape, or form have received formal training. Whether or not they were certified this year or not is too soon… well they're out on the fire anyway. They have the basic training, and so they're able to get to the fire and allowing BC Wildfire Services to to come in and take over.

RB: You sound proud.

PM: It's… it's an incredible accomplishment. I know that as a… as a father, and as a husband, and as a grandfather, I wanted to be out there, too. But at this time in my life, at age 57, I have to let the younger generation go onto the frontlines. And I needed to be… be home to make sure that there's this… this calm. You know, Chief Janet Webster's house is in the line of fire. She needs to be calm. Deputy Chief John Haugen lost his family home last year. They're out there. They're managing the community. So many of the councillors lost their homes last year. So we have to be this calm because that's what you need is leadership. And leadership was being displayed yesterday.

RB: Right.

PM: Yeah, so it's with great pride that I am and all of the Lyttonites.

RB: I'm sorry for what you and your family and… and so many residents of that area are going through. Thank you for taking the time to talk to us.

PM: Thank you very much for your call.

RB: Okay.

PM: Thank you for allowing me to share.

CH: Patrick Michell is the former chief of the Kanaka Bar Indian Band. We reached him in Chilliwack.

[folk]

Tops Supermarket Reopening

Guest: LeRoy Bills

CH: It's been two months now since a white man walked into a grocery story on Buffalo's East Side and opened fire -- killing ten Black shoppers in a racist mass shooting. The killings were devastating for the community. And the crime also stole the supermarket itself -- a Tops Friendly Markets location that was an oasis in an area known as a "food desert", as well as a gathering place. Well, today, the community took the first step toward reclaiming that space. LeRoy Bills is an activist who works with the Stop the Violence Foundation. He was at the Tops this morning when it reopened. We reached him in Buffalo.

RB: LeRoy, what was it like to be back at tops today?

LEROY BILLS: Jubilation, really. Because a lot of the people that I was seeing were people who were at the Tops before, and there was a security guard there that I knew. And he asked me, hey, how's it going? And I said, I'm going to get me some chicken. So, you know, they were very famous for chicken, fried chicken. So I went in there and got me a nice batch of it. And we came out on the parking lot at 8 and talked to the people who were in the parking lot. And everyone there was very excited about the Tops reopening. They… there's still some naysayers. There were a couple of people there that said, you know, it was too soon for the Tops to reopen. But, you know, as soon as people started listening to what those people had to say, they were walking away from them, and they kept it on a very positive note. So that was great.

RB: I have to say, LeRoy, I'm surprised to hear you use terms like jubilation and… and excitement. I half expected you to say, you know, feeling quite emotional and sombre.

LB: Well, you know what? I do have to say I am not a native Buffalonian. I've been here for 15 years, so I'm a transplanted at Buffalonian. I love this town. This is a different kind of place. A lot of times, when events like that happen, the community really tears itself up. It was not the case in Buffalo. We came together and had vigils, and cried on each other's shoulders, and knew that there was a brighter day coming. So when this brighter day finally arrived here. You know, of course, it's not justice for what happened, but it is a win, it is a positive situation. And the people were excited about it. And they had a lot of apprehension, don't get me wrong, because you just never know what's going to happen in these days and times. But they were still excited about getting in.

RB: And it's not just a grocery store, is it? I mean, it's a pretty important part of the community.

LB: Oh, my God, you have no idea, Ma'am. This community store is a meeting place. People from all over the community come to just sit in the parking lot and talk to each other and laugh and…, and they don't even have to be going shopping, you know? [chuckle] They're just there to see old friends and everything. It's a place where the whole community comes together to meet. And it was just tragic what… what that young man did. And I… and I pray for his… I pray for his soul.

RB: LeRoy, you were actually at the supermarket the night before the shooting, and we now know that the shooter was there, too, scoping the place out. How did you feel when you learned that?

LB: It is, and that's tragic that anyone would have that in their minds and heart to be so hateful and to be so deceitful as to even talk to the guard for an hour. From what I understand, he talked to the guard for a long time the night before, before he came back the next day. So, this isn't anything that, you know, was maybe, you know, a mental defect. This was premeditated. So, like… like Mr. Whitfield said, one of the people who was killed -- were killed -- in this incident is Miss Whitfield. And oh, my goodness gracious, he went to my church. She was just one of the sweetest people alive. And… and to know that she suffered because she was going to get her husband, who was in hospice, that she visited every day, some smoked turkey. He loved smoked turkey. I visit him also. So he… and he's a character, and I love going to see Father Whitfield. But that whole Whitfield family experienced this tragedy. And as Garnell said, we're not only hurt, we're angry. You know, about the things that are going on in this world. How can someone have this kind of hatred in their heart for somebody they don't even know? Good God. But I am a person of devout faith, and I know that God is still in control.

RB: Yesterday, the… the gunman, who was 19 years old and white, accused of this mass shooting, he was indicted by a grand jury on 27 charges, including 10 hate crime charges.

LB: Yes. Yes.

RB: Did that give you any sort of solace?

LB: You know what? What has happened has happened. Anything and any kind of perceived justice that people might have. Not going to bring these people back. It's not. Yes, I would like to see him receive some of the God justice that he deserves. But that's not up to me. That's going to be up to God. You know, vengeance is mine, says the Lord. So, you know, whatever the legal system does with him, he deserves. But nothing like that is going to give us any solace on those people who are gone. It just won't. This community is forever changed for that.

RB: Finally, LeRoy, you mentioned that you went to church with 86-year-old Ruth Whitfield, who was one of the victims.

LB: Yes, Ma'am. She is so funny. [laughing]

RB: Well, I was wondering actually if you'd share one of your favourite memories of her? Because you must have been thinking about her as you walked into the store today and saw her name on the memorial.

LB: I actually was. I actually was. They have a new mural that is between the waterfalls when you first walk into the left, and her name is prominently displayed there. Ms. Whitfield would often scold you and then make you laugh. So, oftentimes she would come into and… you know, I… I'm a bus driver also for the city of Buffalo, the NFTA. And she would say, LeRoy, baby, you're a little late today. You know, and I would say, okay, yeah, I'm sorry, Ms. Whitfield. And then she would draw me real close and say, that's okay, Baby. I was a little late, too. We would both laugh. She was something else. You know, she was the one of the finest mothers of that church you could ever have. She always had everybody's consideration in mind. She did. She was a person who gave of herself prominently.

RB: LeRoy, I so appreciate you taking the time to talk to us today. Thank you.

LB: Thank you so very much, Ma'am. You have a pleasant afternoon. And… and thank you for giving me a call. And as far as I'm concerned, today was a great day. It was a… it was a big win. It was a big win.

RB: Take care of yourself. Bye-bye.

LB: Okay. Bye-bye.

CH: LeRoy Bills is a community activist in Buffalo, which is where we reached him. And you can find more on that story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[glassy guitar]

Restaurant Blackmail

Guest: Phillip Foss

CH: No one likes a bad review. But lately, a wave of negative feedback has left restaurant owners across the U.S. with an especially bad taste in their mouths. In recent weeks, dozens of eateries from New York to San Francisco to Miami have seen a big increase in one-star reviews on Google. And it's not a random explosion: it's deliberate extortion. Those reviews are accompanied by emails telling the restaurants to pay up -- or face more bad ratings. Phillip Foss is the chef and owner of EL Ideas in Chicago -- one of the restaurants that's been targeted in this extortion scam.

RB: Chef Foss, I understand that you received another email. What did it say?

PHILLIP FOSS: The email was basically saying that they're not going to be giving up on the one-star reviews, and that we should just pay them up because that's an easier process for everybody involved. And, yeah, it's basically continuing to try to hold us hostage.

RB: When you say pay them up, what are they asking for?

PF: They're asking for a pretty nominal fee of $75. It's kind of ironic because it would probably be easier and more of an economic consideration to just give them the money and take our page back. But, you know, it's kind of the point of it all. And, you know, like, I just don't like the negotiation even with the extortionist. So, we're trying to let Google handle that. But then, that's been a challenge in and of itself.

RB: Let's back up. Tell us how this all began? When did you first start to notice that something unusual was going on with… with these reviews on Google?

PF: It was our front of the house manager. Bill Talbot is the person who noticed that our EL Ideas page was being just hit with one-star reviews with no comments at all, which was… seemed really unusual. Usually, somebody who's going to leave a negative review wants to be heard about what was wrong. So, and then the flux of them. There was just like so many of them. So, yeah, it was he who kind of brought it to my attention.

RB: So they were just one stars? There was no text associated with them?

PF: Yeah, no texts at all. Or very minimal, if at all. And, you know, and then we got hit with the email saying that they were doing this and that they weren't going to stop. And I was... at that time, we also learned that there was… this was happening to several other places around town.

RB: How did you react at the time?

PF: You know, it was… it's kind of comical in the farcical nature of it, you know? Because like, I mean, after everything that we've been through in this last year with, you know, the rise of inflation, not to mention the shutdowns with COVID, to the labour market as it is, it's just like it's another, you know, this is one of the hardest businesses in the world. And it's… we get all kinds of trouble at our doorsteps.

RB: How much do you rely on online reviews?

PF: You know, I really try to kind of keep that out of my psyche, you know, because for better and worse, I feel like it kind of pulls the ego in places that it probably shouldn't go. But at the same point, I know that a lot of people, you know, when they're looking to make their decision, they'll go and check out the reviews and see what people have been saying about it. So, it matters. It matters a lot. And, you know, it's just unfortunate and just kind of traumatizing and challenging to confront with everything else going on right now.

RB: So, what did you try to do to get the… the one-star reviews removed?

PF: Well, there really weren't many options. And I think that that was as much the frustrating part as anything except, you know, we have that right to report a review as a business owner. But it was the not being able to get in touch with anybody and actually talk about what was happening. That was about… that… that was as frustrating as the extortion itself. You know, this is, like, a trillion-dollar company, you know, as Google is. And to not be… feel any sense of customer service through it was really pretty terrible.

RB: So, did you ever get a response back from Google?

PF: No, not at all. But apparently the reviews came down. So somebody is… has been made aware of it over there, but we still heard nothing from them at all.

RB: If it's an extortion matter, is it… is it a police affair?

PF: I don't know where the police… they'd probably laugh about this because how do you exactly deal with it? Because it was from India. So, like, who do you exactly connect with?

RB: Hmm. In fact, some of the emails that I have seen, it's like a plea saying we don't want to be doing this. But $75 would feed a lot of our families or something along the lines of that. I mean, it's obviously trying to pull at your heartstrings. What did you make of that?

PF: Yeah, just that. You know, I mean, it's… it was kind of the wrenching aspect of it. I've done a lot of world travelling. You know, like it's awful the amount of poverty, you know, that people are dealing with in this world. And, you know, you'd like to be able to help them. But at the same point, like when somebody tries to steal from you or extort you, in this case, it's not the solution.

RB: So --

PF: You know, at the same time, it's like, sorry, it's so hard for you. But, you know, it's not like we're walking around, like, dancing with money. Maybe they could work for Google, you know, and do some customer service work. [chuckling] I don't know. Like, but there's… there's definitely a void here that we can only kind of be in awe of in a way.

RB: Based on the email you received this morning, are you confident that this is over now?

PF: No, I… absolutely not. I mean, if they want to continue to change their email address and continue to put up negative reviews, this is going to be a continual ongoing dilemma. But it's really good to hear that Google has finally stepped up and… and taken down the… a lot of the reviews in question.

RB: You told me that this is one of the hardest businesses to be in and especially after the past year, the past two years, in fact. What keeps you doing it?

PF: You know, I love the aspect of making people happy. We have an opportunity every night to kind of make a special occasion for everybody in our dining room. And there is a lot of joy and satisfaction that comes with connecting to people through food and entertainment. And, you know, I am so lucky to do what I do. And, you know, sometimes I wonder how it is I got into this business. If I knew what I knew when I got into it, I don't know if I could still go down the road.

RB: You're doing something special with a zucchini right now?

PF: Yeah, yeah, we're just pickling some zucchini blossoms in a saffron brine for a veal shank course that we're doing that is being served with some summer vegetables coming to us from our friends at Nichols Farm.

RB: Sounds delicious. I'll let you get back to it. Thank you very much for taking the time to talk to us.

PF: Thank you so much for bringing attention to it.

RB: All right, Chef. Take care. Bye-bye.

PF: You too. Bye-bye.

CH: Phillip Foss is the chef and owner of EL Ideas in Chicago -- that's where we reached him. We also contacted Google. A spokesperson told us the company is investigating this situation. Google encourages users and business owners to flag suspicious activity -- and when the company finds policy violations, it takes "swift action".

[vocalization]

Dr. Oz Snooki Cameo

[sc]

[wistful piano]

MEHMET OZ: I want to take a moment to express my deep thanks to the great people of Pennsylvania who have joined me so far on this journey and supported my campaign. I am blessed to have earned the presumptive Republican nomination for the United States Senate.

[/sc]

CH: That was Mehmet Oz -- better known as "Dr. Oz" -- who sailed into the U.S. Senate race with an endorsement from Donald Trump and name recognition from his TV career. As you heard, he was thanking people for joining him on his journey. And interestingly, his opponent -- Pennsylvania Lieutenant-Governor John Fetterman -- would like to focus on that journey also. Mr. Fetterman will not stop needling him Dr. Oz for having moved to Pennsylvania just a few months ago -- after living in neighbouring New Jersey for decades. He has relentlessly attacked the man he calls "Doc Hollywood" on Twitter. Last week, he hired a plane to fly over beaches in New Jersey, trailing a banner that read, "Hey Dr. Oz, welcome home to New Jersey, Love, John". And this week, he used the celebrity-for-hire messaging service Cameo to hire the New Jersey-est person of all -- "Jersey Shore" reality-show star Snooki -- to create a personalized message for Dr. Oz.

[sc]

NICOLE "SNOOKI" POLIZZI: Hey, Mehmet, this is Nicole Snooki, and I'm from Jersey Shore. I don't know if you've seen of it before, but I'm a hot mess on a reality show, basically, and I enjoy life. But I heard that you moved from New Jersey to Pennsylvania to look for a new job. And personally, I don't know why anyone would want to leave Jersey because it's, like, the best place ever, and we're all hot messes. But I want to say best of luck to you. I know you're away from home, and you're in a new place, but Jersey will not forget you. I just want to let you know. I will not forget you. And don't worry, because you'll be back home in Jersey soon. This is only temporary. So good luck. You got this. And Jersey loves you. [smacking kissing sound]

[/sc]

CH: That was Nicole "Snooki" Polizzi of the reality show "Jersey Shore", with a Cameo message for Dr. Mehmet Oz -- courtesy of his rival for the U.S. Senate, Pennsylvania Lieutenant-Governor John Fetterman.

[indie rock]

Part 2: NS Banfield Testimony, U.S. Cruise Ship Waste, Airport Cat

NS Banfield Testimony

Guest: James Lockyer

CH: After more than two years, the common-law spouse of the Nova Scotia gunman is finally sharing her story in public. Today, Lisa Banfield testified at the Mass Casualty Commission, looking into the killings of 22 people during a rampage in April 2020. Ms. Banfield… Ms. Banfield has detailed a history of abuse with the gunman that came to a head that spring night. She says he pulled her from bed, assaulted and handcuffed her, and put her in the back of his mock RCMP car. And today, she described what happened after she escaped and ran into the woods.

[sc]

LISA BANFIELD: And I was laying there. And then, all of a sudden, I hear this sound, and I look, and behind me, I see this house go up in flames. I can see it through the woods. And then, all of a sudden, I hear two guys, and they're freaking out. And I was going to yell to them because I could hear them. But I was scared if I yelled out, that if he was around, that he would hear me. And as I'm getting closer, the stick broke. So I dropped to my knees. And then I heard it was like, hey, boys or something. [crying] And bang, bang. And then there was nothing. And then I just crawled back to the log and just hid there. And then I'm thinking obviously that him because there’s nothing. And then, I'm thinking should I go see if they're okay? But I was so scared that I didn't want to move. And I'm looking, and I’m thinking am I hallucinating? Because I could see the shadow of somebody with a, like, short gun, a rifle kind of gun. But I'm thinking it's my mind playing tricks on me, so I'm trying to listen to see if I can hear any footprints of anybody walking. But I couldn’t hear anything, so I didn't know if I was hallucinating or not. So then I just pulled my face into my shirt because I thought if I'm breathing, if he’s there, he's going to see my back. So I just held my face into my shirt.

[/sc]

CH: Lisa Banfield, testifying today at the Mass Casualty Commission in Nova Scotia. Ms. Banfield was asked why the gunman may have targeted some of the 22 victims:

[sc]

WOMAN: Did you know the Blairs?

LB: No.

WOMAN: Can you think of any reason that he may have targeted them that night?

LB: I have no idea.

WOMAN: Is it possible that he had gone to their home looking for you?

LB: That's… like, I just think, like, this is what haunts me is because I feel like he was targeting me and my family. And if I didn't get out of that car, I often think, [crying] would any of those people have died? So that's something that haunts me all the time because I feel that they weren't targeted, and he was looking for me in the beginning.

[/sc]

CH: James Lockyer is the lawyer for Lisa Banfield. We reached him in Halifax.

RB: Mr. Lockyer, we just heard Lisa Banfield describe part of what she experienced April 18th, as well as the guilt she feels for having escaped. What did she say to you when today's proceedings had finished?

JAMES LOCKYER: Well, I actually haven’t spoken to her, but I know she will be exhausted, relieved it's over. And in a way, this is perhaps the beginning of a new start for her today.

RB: What did she say today about whether she had any indication that the gunman might have been planning or been capable of a mass killing?

JL: Well, no, she had no idea. He gave no idea. One gets the impression, at least I do, that it was kind of an instantaneous wave of anger at the world and paranoia about COVID that overtook him. So, there was nothing predictable about this except that these incidents so often arise out of domestic abuse. Lisa was always fearful for herself and her family members, but of course, never imagined what ultimately happened.

RB: She said that he had guns but did not tell the police. Why was that?

JL: Well, so often, victims of domestic violence are too fearful to do that. And that's particularly true for Lisa because there was involvement of a number of people, including police, over the years, and no one ever did anything. I mean, on one occasion, he was investigated for threatening to kill a police officer, but the investigation amounted to essentially nothing. And so, she saw him as being, in a sense, protected by the world, and that if she dared to try and do anything about it, she would immediately suffer a… probably the ultimate penalty for it at his hands.

RB: Family members of some of the victims had threatened to boycott today's proceedings if their lawyers were not able to cross-examine your client. Why shouldn't they have been allowed the opportunity to question her?

JL: You know, the trouble with cases like this, mass casualty events, is you… you always have conspiracy theories arising out of them, especially south of the border. We've seen the Alex Joneses of this world and Steve Bannons of this world. We really don't need them in Canada. And supposedly, the points, if you can call them that, that were being made by… it was just really one law firm, were conspiracy theory points. They were wanting to question, for example, how could she have stayed out in the woods all night because it was cold? And the only purpose of such a question, if you will, is… is to suggest that she wasn't in the woods all night, which, of course, raises the question, well, where was she? And it's a classic conspiracy theory. And so, it's not in the interests of the commission. It's not in the interest of the public. It’s certainly not in the interests of Lisa, who herself, as the commission has said, was the first victim of this man who… who killed all these people, to have those kinds of theories bandied about. And to me, it's God bless the commission for seeing through this kind of nonsense and not allowing it to happen.

RB: Today, when commissioners described Ms. Banfield as one of those most affected by this incident, Several family members of victims reportedly cringed at that. Can you understand why they might feel that way?

JL: I certainly do. Of course, I do. And you know what? So does Lisa. And she expressed that in her evidence today that she understood why they, you know, could not accept what she was saying. And I understand it. That doesn't mean their lawyer should project what they've been projecting. But, you know, it's very difficult. And, you know, Lisa made the point when she was asked, you know, what she has suffered as a consequence of all this. And she said, you know, I really don't want to talk about it because it doesn't compare to what's happened to the families. She said, I've still got my family. And so, I don't want to talk about me.

RB: Do you know whether she has spoken directly to any of the families?

JL: No, as far as I know, she has not. She would be more than willing to do so. But I don't think it's for her to make the first move. I know I'd welcome it, and I know Lisa would welcome it as well.

RB: Mr. Lockyer, good of you to join us. Thank you.

JL: It's a pleasure. Thank you very much. Bye-bye.

RB: Bye-bye.

CH: James Lockyer is the lawyer for Lisa Banfield. He's in Halifax.

[ambient]

U.S. Cruise Ship Waste

Guest: Michael Bissonette

CH: As of 2020, an Alaskan cruise was one of the most booked holidays in the U.S. Then, for two-plus years, no one took a holiday, no matter how much they wanted to. But now, the cruise industry seems to be getting its sea legs again. Which is good news for the people happily piling onto the boats. And bad news in terms of the stuff that is pouring out of the boats. This week, an article in the Guardian examined the environmental damage being done on the West Coast, by all these boats going to and from Alaska. The headline was "US cruise ships using Canada as a [quote] 'toilet bowl' for polluted waste". Michael Bissonette is a staff lawyer at West Coast Environmental Law. He contributed to a report covered in the article. He's in Vancouver.

RB: Michael, when you use the word toilet bowl, do you mean what I think you mean?

MICHAEL BISSONETTE: Yeah, I unfortunately do. I mean, unfortunately, you know, cruise ships are really huge vessels that are, you know, essentially the size of small cities. And just like small cities, they also have toilets and do produce large amounts of sewage, just like cities do.

RB: Is it possible to quantify how much pollution is coming from these cruise ships?

MB: It's not just sewage from toilets that's produced by cruise ships. Another really, really important source of pollution from these ships is also what's called scrubber wash water, which is essentially a loophole so that they can continue to use dirty fuels. So, what is happening is instead of producing air emissions from dirty fuels, they're using these contraptions called scrubbers, which clean the air emissions. But unfortunately, the effect of that is it produces a large amount of wastewater that is also dumped into our waters. And the wastewater from these scrubbers is actually quite toxic and contains a lot of heavy metals. And we're finding that, actually, scrubber wastewater is actually accounting now for about 97 per cent of the volume of waste that's produced by ships in our waters.

RB: Right. So it's not just the sewage then. It's this… this scrubber wastewater that you're talking about that's also contributing, but it's coming off these cruise ships. Why is it that B.C.'s West Coast, in particular, is becoming the receptacle for these… for these cruise ships?

MB: Yeah. So… so for two reasons. The first reason is the growth of the Alaskan cruise ship industry, which has… in the last few decades, has really increased in size. And so, these ships are sailing from ports such as Seattle and Vancouver and Victoria along the B.C. coast, up to ports in Alaska and back. And unfortunately, the regulations in the American areas for cruise ship dumping are much more restrictive than they are in Canadian waters. And so, that does create a legal incentive for these ships to hold on to their wastewater in American waters and then to release it in Canadian waters.

RB: So, just to be clear, these cruise ships, are they intentionally waiting until they get into Canadian waters to dump their waste?

MB: In… in some instances, yes. So, for example, in Washington state, from Seattle to the Canadian border, there's actually a no dumping of sewage policy in place. So, cruise ships cannot dump their sewage when they leave Seattle until they arrive at the Canadian border, and then they can. And so, for example, in that kind of situation, there is the real incentive for the ships because they legally cannot dump it in Washington to wait until they get to Canada.

RB: What does the government say when you approach them with this information?

MB: So we released this report last year, and our… our real… our hope at the time was there was a pause in the cruise ship travel because of COVID-19. And we were hoping the government would address these issues before the cruise ship season opened up again. And in April, they announced new measures to address some of the things that we had raised in our report. And so, they have come up with new measures to address the release of sewage and greywater from these cruise ships, which is welcome and a good step forward. Unfortunately, our concerns are, first of all, that these new measures aren't actually legal regulations. So at this point, they are merely voluntary in nature. But also, they don't address the biggest source of pollution that, as I mentioned before, is scrubber washwater.

RB: It might surprise some people to hear that Canada's environmental laws around pollution from cruise ships is less stringent than those in the U.S. Why do you think that is?

MB: Yeah, I think one of the reasons is folks in British Columbia and especially communities here need to be aware of what is happening and the amount of pollution that's now being generated on these coasts. And they're just has been more political will to address these in places like Alaska, where, unfortunately, they've seen illegal dumping from cruise ships and realized that they need to regulate it. I think the upside is that we see from our American neighbours that it is possible to have stricter cruise ship regulations but to still have a cruise ship industry. So, the things that we're asking for are certainly things that are compatible with the cruise ship industry, as has been shown in Alaska, Washington and also places like California.

RB: If Canada followed suit and it put more stringent measures in place, what would happen with the waste from… from cruise ships? If it couldn't dump in the U.S., it couldn't dump in Canada, where would it dump?

MB: Yeah. So, for things like sewage in Washington state, where they have a no discharge zone, they've actually… have established pumpout stations where this kind of waste can be handled responsibly. For the case of scrubber washwater, there is really an easy fix there, and it's simply that these ships can adopt cleaner fuels, and if they do adopt cleaner fuels, they won't need to use scrubbers to clean out the air exhaust of these fuels. And so, they won't actually be generating any washwater. So, that… that's the really the easiest policy fix.

RB: Michael, what's your biggest fear if the Canadian government doesn't make more stringent laws?

MB: I think our biggest fear is that this industry is really growing on the West Coast. The Alaskan cruises are very popular. And... and I think if we don't get a check on it now, it's only going to get bigger, and this problem is going to get bigger. And I think not only for British Columbians and coastal communities and coastal ecosystems, that would be a real concern. But I think the folks who travel on these cruise ships as well would not feel well if they knew the kind of pollution that they're leaving behind in these beautiful places that they're visiting.

RB: Have you ever travelled on a cruise ship?

MB: I have not. No, I have not. It's not on my bucket list right now, given all the information I've researched on it. [chuckle]

RB: Good to talk to you today. Thank you very much for your time, Michael.

MB: Thank you very much. Have a good day.

CH: Michael Bissonette is a staff lawyer at West Coast Environmental law. He's in Vancouver, B.C.

[folk jig]

Airport Cat

Guest: Patty Sahli

CH: When you lose a bag at the airport, there is one tiny bit of consolation: a bag is inanimate. A bag cannot get freaked out and run away from you all by itself and hide in some tiny nook or cranny. So unless someone took it, it's right where you left it. The same can absolutely not be said of a cat. Which is why staff at Boston's Logan International Airport faced a seemingly insurmountable challenge this week -- when a four-year-old cat named Rowdy got get free from her carrier after an international flight. Patty Sahli is Rowdy's owner. We reached her near Fort Walton Beach, Florida.

RB: Patty, you'd been flying home from Germany where your family was on an army deployment. Where was Rowdy during the flight? In the cabin or in the cargo?

PATTY SAHLI: She was in the cargo.

RB: And what have you come to understand about how she managed to escape her cat carrier?

PS: They were taking the animals out of the cargo section, and somehow the door of her cage fell open, and she saw that moment, and she just ran as fast as she could.

RB: You don't think that she used her cat claws to… [chuckle] to open it up herself?

PS: No, I don't think so. But she's pretty sneaky because she gets into the cupboards and will get out her treats if she can smell them. And, yeah, she's kind of sneaky. She can get in and out of things. But I think through, you know the travel that it must have just shifted enough that the little posts that hold the door in got loose and it fell out.

RB: And they let you visit the luggage area at the airport where she was thought to be. What did that look like?

PS: The underground part of where all the conveyor belts are for the luggage. And it's like they call it the basement. It's like crawl space. I'm five-two, and I could stand up in some parts of it, but some parts of it I had to duck under. It was very loud and noisy, and there was, you know, wire cages everywhere, storing things. Plus, it was just a million places that she could hide. And she is so good at hiding. I always used to think like because she was half Bengal, that she had a little more wild in her, and she's very protective so that she can hide and watch everybody. And… and we don't even know she's there. And so, she's black. If she's in the corner, she just blends into things. So I thought that the task of finding her was going to be monumental, if impossible because there was just too many places for her to go.

RB: What were you doing to try to entice her to come out?

PS: Well, we weren't allowed to stay there. So, the facilities director, they put out the word to all the employees at the airport. The construction team that was doing construction was notified. The animal rescue people were notified. There's some people that feed feral cats there. The Lufthansa staff. Everybody knew, and they had a phone number to call for any sightings. So they were like if we can see where she's hanging and and get it to an area, then maybe we, one, can either get a tracking dog to find her, or we can… we know to set traps there. So the Animal Rescue League also lent extra traps to the airport. They set them, they put food and tuna and sardines. And then, they also took clothing from my husband and me to put in our scent there. And I also got him some of her favourite treats that she chews through the bag for. And they just started monitoring cameras and seeing where they could see her other than people calling in. So they caught her running through one time. And then, I don't know, almost two-and-a-half weeks later, you know, they found her going to a certain area repeatedly.

RB: Did you say two-and-a-half weeks later, Patty?!

PS: Yeah. June 24th was the flight.

RB: Wow!

PS: And we didn't find out they caught her till, you know, the day before yesterday. I don't know. A week-and-a-half ago, a construction worker called me, says, hey, did you lose a cat? And I said, yeah, I saw her. I just want you to know she's alive. And… but I'm on the third floor of a construction area next to the terminal where she was lost. So, she got up to the third floor, and that's where she kind of hung out, and that's where they caught her.

RB: How do you reckon she was spending her days?

PS: I think she was sleeping around and watching everything because she's really observant, and she was hunting mice for sure. So she was looking around. I mean, she did not stay down in that noisy area where the baggage terminal is. She went to a quiet space. And when they're done working for the day, it was very quiet. She could roam around without anybody bothering her. So I think it was safer to her.

RB: I mean, this is quite the operation that you described there with, you know, [chuckling] the clothes with your scent and the sardines and the tuna. Who eventually caught her?

PS: They had people checking the traps. I just didn't talk to who actually trapped her. I mean, they had set traps, and they would check them periodically through the day. And this was 5:30 in the morning I got the call. So, probably went out to go look for her meals, and that was… she went back to that cage that they had seen her three times in a row. They put some catnip in it this time because once they saw her repeating there, they tried to make it more enticing to her. They finally did the trick.

RB: So, Patty, you're going to be headed to Boston later today to pick up Rowdy. What are you going to say to her when you're reunited?

PS: I'm going to say, hey, Rowdy. I mean, hey, Rowdy. I want to talk to her because she'll know my voice and I'll just be saying I'm so happy I see you. You know, I'll pick her up and hug her and, hopefully, she'll jump into my arms with a familiar face, you know? And I'll know that she did miss me. [chuckle]

RB: I hope you have a happy reunion. Thanks so much for taking the time to tell us the story, Patty.

PS: Okay. Thank you. You have a great day.

RB: Bye-bye.

PS: Bye-bye.

CH: That was Patty Sahli. We reached her near Fort Walton Beach, Florida.

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July 15, 2022 Episode Transcript

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