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The Current Transcript for July 18, 2022

Host: Duncan McCue

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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SOUNDCLIP

I'm going to do everything right. I'm going to get a good education, get a good job, and then I'm still going to be living like I was right after the start of university. I feel like my life really hasn't progressed from then.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Sky high housing prices are pushing more adults than ever before to find roommates or other ways to share their homes. We'll speak with a couple of financial experts who have some creative solutions. That's in 30 minutes. And then.

SOUNDCLIP

She would wash their mouths out for real, with soap, when they spoke their own language. Made me want to throw up. And it does now.

DM: That's Dolores Flanes. She is one of the staff members who witnessed the horrors at Cooper Island Residential School firsthand. We'll hear from her in the sixth episode of the CBC podcast Keeper Island, hosted by me. But we begin with forced sterilisation and what Canada plans to do about it. I'm Duncan McHugh, sitting in for Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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'Incomprehensible' that forced sterilizations still happen in Canada, says survivor

Guests: Senator Michele Audette, Morningstar Mercredi, Alisa Lombard

DM: In 2015, two women in Saskatoon spoke publicly about something that had happened to them. They'd gone into hospital to deliver their babies and left the hospital sterilised, unable to get pregnant again. They said they were pressured, even forced to be sterilised against their will. Since then, many more Canadian women, particularly indigenous and marginalised women, have said this happened to them too. Last week, a Senate report concluded forced and coerced sterilisation is much more prevalent than reported and not confined to the past. It's continuing today and it's called for the criminalisation of the practise, as well as formal apologies and compensation for survivors. Senator Michele Audette is an author of the report and was a member of the Senate's Standing Committee on Human Rights. And the warning, we will be talking about experiences of forced and coerced sterilisation in this segment. Please take care while listening. Good morning, Senator Audette.

SENATOR MICHELE AUDETTE: Good morning to you.

DM: How surprised were you to learn that that forced and coerced sterilization still occurs in Canada?

SENATOR MICHELE AUDETTE: Probably more shocked again, because after the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls, it is something that we've heard. Also that in our own communities when I was young or my mum's generation, it is something that it was always there, that some of us — sad to say — normalized that it was meant to be or it's supposed to be like this. But knowing that the country that we are today and the more and more that we are telling Indigenous women, or Black women or, you know, marginalised women across Canada, use your voice and you have rights to use your voice. It was like, 'Oh, come on, not again.' It was shocking.

DM: You mentioned Indigenous women, marginalised women, Black women — who are the most vulnerable?

SENATOR MICHELE AUDETTE: I won't say most. It's hard to say who is the most vulnerable because all my work was with Indigenous women, so it might be natural for me, or I have a bias to say it's Indigenous women. But since the beginning of the colonization, Indigenous women were here for thousands of years. So when the people came here, that way of treating women was already there. So But if I was a Black woman, I would say probably my community, you know, it depends who gets the question.

DM: The report's recommendations include requiring that medical associations and professional governing and licencing bodies denounce forced and coerced sterilisation, requiring that medical and nursing school students study Indigenous health issues, increasing the number of Indigenous health-care providers. How do you intend to hold the health-care systems and practitioners accountable to these kinds of recommendations?

SENATOR MICHELE AUDETTE: There's many ways, of course, all the professional profession that we've seen [unintelligible], there's a huge work needs to happen there too. You know, it's the same when we lost Joyce Echaquan, we heard some professional order that made some commitment to make the change that needs to happen. So it's the same here, I would say approach that, yes, the federal government, the provincial and territorial government also has a responsibility and all the order that I mentioned have that duty or responsibility. So it's a collective effort. But for us we will have to make sure that we are also with the grassroot organization or the women's organization across Canada that make the pressure to those organizations to be accountable, or that they're making the change that needs to happen.

DM: We asked the Department of Justice and the minister, David Lametti, for a statement on what the government plans to do about this. And they wrote, I'll read it to you, "We will seriously consider the Senate Committee on Human Rights' important report recommendations in conjunction with Senator Boyer's bill S-250 for potential for law reform. Our government will have more to say in due course." So that bill that they refer to is the one that you worked on with Senator Boyer. And it would make coercing or forcing a person to be sterilized a criminal offence, punishable by up to 14 years in jail. So what kind of involvement has the Department of Justice had in that work?

SENATOR MICHELE AUDETTE: Had before or will have? I'm not sure. I didn't hear.

DM: Has the Department of Justice responded to your call that this should be criminalised?

SENATOR MICHELE AUDETTE: Well, me, I wasn't there if they had that conversation with [unintelligible] and that department. But for sure, they know our position, for sure. So I'm sure that when we'll come back in the fall, those working relationships will be very crucial to make sure that we have also the support from the other chamber, making sure that it's something like we did with this legislation just before we end the session in June on when somebody is intoxicated and could or will or had, you know, raped a person. So I hope they'll have the same efficacité and same response to all the women that are facing that injustice. For us, it's a crime. So we'll make sure that they're on our side. That would be my answer to you.

Senator, what are you hoping that this work is going to do for survivors?

SENATOR MICHELE AUDETTE: Well, many things. I mean, finally, their voices will vibrate across Canada, for the many generations that passed away, who were forced or, of course, like you mentioned at the beginning of this interview, it will send a strong message also for the next generation of 'I didn't know,' or 'I trusted the doctor,' or 'I didn't have a say.' You know, it's going to send that message. But also to all the professional who wanted to support the women but didn't have a legal handle to use that path. So but there's many paths. It's not only the legislation, but it's also how we educate, how we denounce and how we support the family and the person who were forced or coerced.

DM: Thank you for joining us this morning, Senator.

SENATOR MICHELE AUDETTE: Merci beaucoup, Ava.

DM: Senator Michel Audette is an author of the Senate Committees. New Report. The Scars that We Carry. Forced and Coerced Sterilisation of Persons in Canada. Morningstar Mercredi is a First Nations author and storyteller in Edmonton. She is a survivor of forced sterilisation. Morningstar. Good morning.

MORNINGSTAR MERCREDI: Good morning.

DM: Thank you for joining us to talk about something so difficult.

MORNINGSTAR MERCREDI: It's important.

DM: How are you doing with all this coming to the surface and into the public eye this way?

MORNINGSTAR MERCREDI: Well, I think with the recommendations, I'm I was over the moon when I when I first got the news, I can't say enough about the efforts and the work of Senator Boyer. Yvonne Boyer and the many aunties, the grandmothers, mothers, the women, the survivors. I mean, this both voicing and speaking out. This has been going on for decades. So I always make sure that I acknowledge those that have gone before us and those that are amongst us that are standing up right now and. Speaking out, creating change. So when the recommendations came forth and there's a possibility of forced or coerced sterilisation being criminalised, I was ecstatic.

DM: Reading the report is really harrowing. And I wonder, I mean, what happened to you was years ago. But but what do you make of hearing that this happened to so many more women and it appears to be still happening?

MORNINGSTAR MERCREDI: Yeah. It's more definite. Most definitely still happening as we speak. Absolutely. In July of 2022, undoubtably somewhere in Canada, there is a woman that is being subjected to forced or coerced sterilisation. That's indisputable. The fact that it's been able to be so- that the fact that it's ongoing is.... is incomprehensible. so again, it's not past tense. It's you know, when I speak, when you think when I think in terms of historical context, well, obviously we I refer back to the residential schools and Indian hospitals. I mean TRC there were persons in TRC that spoke about sterilisations. I know that it occurred in my communities, occurred within my family. And so. Yeah. Finally in 2022.

DM: Finally and I mean the ongoing costs to women. Just huge in your book, Sacred Bundles Unborn. You say healing is like a vehicle breaking down. How have you tried to heal from from what you experienced?

MORNINGSTAR MERCREDI: Yes, indeed. Sacred Bundles Unborn, I was listening to you with Senator Audette and I think that for practitioners and nurses and persons that will be going to school. There's definitely material that does exist now. Literature and Sacred Bundles Unborn is definitely a book that I would recommend everyone read if they really want to know what's going on in Canada and what's been ongoing as well as I want to acknowledge Karen Stout, author of An Act of Genocide. She's also in the book. So it's not as though we don't have the literature available. The information is there that what was important for me with Sacred Bundles Unborn is that we document it from our perspective, in our voices.

DM: So and some of the women in the Senate report talk about, you know, waves of grief that that they've experienced. Obviously, it's much more than just the act at the time.

MORNINGSTAR MERCREDI: Yes. Undoubtably for myself. I mean, I do refer to healing as a metaphor of a car breaking down and you have to change your oil, etc.. Tongue in cheek. I mean, there's I've spent a lifetime processing this. There there is no closure. This is not something that I will ever recover from. This is something that I've learnt to live with. This is certainly something that I've grieved. And it wasn't until I was in my fifties that it- when I became triggered, when I listened to actually an interview on CBC Radio, as you well know, you read the chapter that I was triggered. Prior to that, I didn't have any conscious memory of the details of what happened to me. So my brain was a little was a little bit frazzled when I started experiencing the symptoms of my PTSD and flashbacks and recall. So it's been a process, a very arduous, painful and difficult process. Nonetheless, this is Canadian history. You know, this is... This is, as a woman, you know, we... It's it's the generational systemic genocide that we are having to reconcile ourselves, that we're having to heal and process in order to move forward. I mean, we begin with residential schools and the scoop, every child matters, and now for circular sterilisation I mean, in my lifetime. So that's a lot to process.

DM: You said that the Senate report affirmed your experience. And I wonder how helpful. How hopeful are you that it will be acted upon?

MORNINGSTAR MERCREDI: More hopeful than I've ever been. I mean, I can't say enough about Senator Yvonne Boyer. I cannot. She just. She. She took the bull by the horns. She's been advocating for change for decades. It's been her life's work, you know, and it hasn't been easy for any of us. This is. We're talking our babies. We're talking our children. We're talking women who have been sterilised. That is their end. The end of their lineage. If they haven't already had children. And who? Who thinks who dare thinks they have the right to make that decision for any woman.

DM: Morningstar. Thank you for sharing your story.

MORNINGSTAR MERCREDI: Oh, absolutely. Thank you.

DM: Morningstar Mercredi is in Edmonton. As I mentioned, it started with two women coming forward in Saskatchewan and then launching a class action lawsuit in 2017. Today, there are two lawsuits and many more women, including Morningstar Mercredi. Alisa Lombard is a lawyer representing the women in these lawsuits. Good morning.

ALISA LOMBARD: Good morning.

DM: How many women are part of the suit now?

ALISA LOMBARD: Hundreds.

DM: Can you give me an idea of the range of their experiences?

ALISA LOMBARD: Well, the range of their experiences, they're all very, very similar. Generally speaking, they attend at the hospital to have a baby. And when they have their baby. Just a moment. It's my child.

DM: You've got a little one there. That's okay. Yeah.

ALISA LOMBARD: Maybe she decided she wanted to talk to you. Just a moment. And then by the time they leave, they've been, you know, someone has suggested to them that they should have a tubal ligation or they're basically told that they absolutely must have a tubal ligation. And of course, in the state that they're in, in the throes of labour, having that conversation at that time is simply inappropriate because the woman, from our perspective, does not have capacity to have a discussion about a permanent non-emergent therapeutic procedure with permanent consequences on their fertility. And so these women leave the hospital sterilised. So that's kind of the range of their experiences. Some will have caesarean sections. Others have had natural vaginal births. But all share the future, feeling like they had no other choice. That hhis is what was best for them because the doctor knew better or felt like they wouldn't see their children wouldn't be allowed to leave, and others were actually physically restrained. And so that is the essential range of what we're talking about.

DM: There have been no reports of any doctors who've faced any consequences for forced sterilisation. Is that correct?

ALISA LOMBARD: That's right.

DM: So without it being criminalised, I mean, how can health care prediction practitioners who've done these procedures be held legally responsible?

ALISA LOMBARD: There are a series of ways I don't want to get too far into the case because of course, I can't do that. But there are civil ways. There's, of course, tort law, basically institutions. There's a measure of charter responsibility there. Or there could be. There there's human rights legislation or international human rights covenants. And, of course, there's criminal law or assault provisions in the criminal code, aggravated assault provisions that could apply but have not been triggered. And so there there are a plethora of ways in which physicians can be held accountable, not the least of which includes, of course, through their own regulators who are not very effective. If I may be so bold at disciplining their members and protecting the public from this kind of harm, particularly when we're talking about marginalised and vulnerable women. And so it is a struggle.

DM: And that the Senate report I mean, it recommends criminalisation. So what are you hoping for from the federal government, Department of Justice, on this in particular?

ALISA LOMBARD: Well, I'm hoping for some thoughtfulness, and I'm certainly hoping for efforts that will mitigate in the direction of centring the experiences of the survivors and eventually seeing the sense and in criminalizing the process, because simply the fact of criminalising the process, I think, will have a deterrent effect.

DM: You know what, Alisa? It's early in the morning and your little one's up and I think maybe she wants to go back to bed. So I'm going to let you go here. You'ew a busy woman. Thank you so much for sharing time.

ALISA LOMBARD: Thank you. Bye bye.

DM: Okay, Alisa. Alisa Lombart is a lawyer representing women in those class action lawsuits who say they were sterilised against their will. The CBC News is next. And then.

SOUNDCLIP

If you'd asked me ten years ago if this is how I would be living, likely, no. But I think having a roommate affords me a little bit more space, living in the city.

DM: People are finding creative ways to afford to live where they want. Sometimes that means roommates years longer than they expected to have them. That story is coming up in six minutes. I'm Duncan McCue and you're listening to The Current.

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Housing prices leave more Canadians living with roommates later in life

Guests: Armine Yalnizyan, Shannon Lee Simmons

DM: Hi. I'm Duncan McCue and you're listening to The Current.

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DM: Still to come, the next episode of my podcast, Kuper Island. Today, we look at what really happened during a 1990s RCMP task force investigation, one triggered by the high number of sexual abuse allegations at Kuper Island Residential School and at other schools in B.C. But first, Roommates for Life a solution to affordable housing.

SOUNDCLIP

So after I graduated university, I moved out into a house, out by UBC with five other high school friends. And then after that I moved to Chinatown again, roommates with another friend from high school. And I've had, I think, a total of seven roommates.

DM: It's part of the ritual of growing up, moving out of the house, getting an apartment with some buddies, and spending your early adulthood negotiating your roomies, good and bad cleaning habits and how to share things like a fridge and bathroom and TV. But what if that ritual is still one you're living in your thirties or forties or beyond?

SOUNDCLIP

My name is Aaron Ottho. I just turned 40 years old in November, and I live in a rental apartment in Vancouver with a roommate and a new place that I just moved into in April. I've got a Bachelor of Science in Interactive Arts and Technology, and then I've got a masters of business, and I work for a technology company that pays me pretty good. But even with, you know, a good education and a good wage, I find I can't live on my own. Or if I would if I was renting, say, a studio apartment, I would be paying maybe $500 more a month than I currently am for far less space. So it's purely economical. The only thing that makes sense to do is to split a apartment with somebody. And thankfully I found a friend from university who was kind of in the same situation, and he's a design director and also, you know, Bachelor of Science Education, really good job, good salary. But, you know, just we were both looking for places on our own and couldn't find anything in our price range.

DM: New census numbers out last week show, Aaron, as part of a trend that more adults are sharing living spaces with people who aren't necessarily family. That's also Maggie situation in Toronto.

My name is Maggie Cameron and I'm 35. I've had a roommate for two years now. If you'd asked me ten years ago if this is how I would be living like we know it's a bit disheartening and it's disappointing. China's home. Of course, I'd love to be able to own property there, but it's just not possible and it doesn't seem like it will be. So I guess we, those of us who've been priced out, have to think of creative ways to get our foot in the door.

DM: Well, Maggie and Aaron are both renting apartments with roommates. There is another creative way people are trying to get in the door, and that's by co-owning a house, but not the traditional spouses or parents and kids arrangements. This is friends or sometimes strangers coming together to be able to afford a house. In some cases, there are even businesses that deal in matchmaking of prospective buyers. Lesli Gaynor is a real estate agent and the founder of Gold Coast Solutions in Toronto. Hello.

LESLI GAYNOR: Hello.

DM: How much are you hearing from people like Maggie or Aaron? Adults who are in their thirties and forties who need to find roommates so they can afford a place to live.

LESLI GAYNOR: I'm seeing a trend that's moving upwards. There are a number of reasons why I think that is true. One is economics. Absolutely. Inflation, the cost of living, where the jobs are, where people have to find their life, where their medical care may be with their family may be. So the trend is absolutely moving upwards, mostly because of economics. The other reason is, is that people are looking for something a little different. I think the pandemic showed people how isolation and living alone can also cause other issues.

DM: So it's one thing to get a roommate. How much more common is co-ownership becoming?

LESLI GAYNOR: Well, again, as Maggie said, I mean, the dream, of course, of owning your own home is becoming out of reach for so many people, even with people with really strong and, you know, incomes that you think would allow them to own. So co-ownership is actually becoming a way to get into the market. Maybe not for ever, but it's a good way to get in and it might let you go off and do your own thing five or ten years later.

DM: How much of it is about an investment and how much is co-living?

LESLI GAYNOR: So we want to be careful with the co-living because what what is different about co-ownership is for the most part, people are looking for their own units within a property. So it's not the same as having a roommate, although some people will set up their lifestyle to have a great degree of sharing. Other people will have much less. They will have their own unit. So it is very important to kind of watch how we use the co-living in the co-ownership. So it is an investment in themselves and people are looking to do this and combine their incomes, combine their resources and then maybe share some other things.

DM: So you've how much of your business now is matchmaking these prospective buyers?

LESLI GAYNOR: Well, the matchmaking is quite new. We have launched an app called Housemates, which is, in fact matching strangers together. We do have some groups of strangers that are out looking, but it's complicated. So we spend a lot of time with people looking at what you need to consider before you move into co-ownership. Between friends, I'm probably doing about 80% of my business with people who have some kind of pre-existing relationship family, friends, high school friends, university friends.

DM: And how just briefly, I mean, how does the app work? Is it like a dating app you can swipe left, swipe right?

LESLI GAYNOR: Well, it's quite the swiping, but it has some of the same attributes for sure. We're trying to get people who are some, you know, are likeminded, let's say, who are looking to maybe obtain certain things, live in certain neighbourhoods, need parking, need, you know, people who like dogs. Like there are many different ways in which we try and match.

DM: Well, it's it's a bit like getting into a romantic relationship in some ways. I mean, you did this yourself years ago. How did how did it work out for you?

LESLI GAYNOR: Well, it was it was exactly what Maggie said. It's like I was a tenant and I felt like I didn't have my home, wasn't secure. I had a child. So we sat down with some friends and said, look, you know, our combined income would allow us to do something, but we had our own units and it was a huge benefit to me. So I had a relationship with the women that I actually bought with. But people are really motivated to be creative and to try and find solutions to make their life work in a city that is becoming more and more expensive to live in.

DM: You mentioned that you had a child at the time. Was that was that a challenge at all, having a child going into that kind of relationship?

LESLI GAYNOR: Well, it wasn't a challenge for me. You may ask them that question they might like. Well, you know, there were days, but it was great for us because it allowed my son to have other people in the home. I was less stressed. I could go out. I could do things that I wouldn't have been able to do if I was living on my own. And people are really looking for that in their lives now. We're trying to solve other problems through our tenancy.

DM: You mentioned that you did this with friends and that that's a lot of your business is putting friends together for co-ownership. How hard is it to make sure that you get the financial, the legal, all that stuff in place so that the deal doesn't go sour?

LESLI GAYNOR: Well, and that is the big worry, right? So what we do at Coco and through housemates is we don't start with the bricks and mortar. We leave the bricks and mortar to the very last. What we do is we help people process. How are you going to live in this co owned property? How have you considered things like divorce, death? People who need to exit the exit strategies are really important. I mean, we probably dive into things that people who are getting into matrimonial relationships don't even discuss. And we put a plan together so that people have an agreement and an understanding how the good and the bad and ugly in co-ownership can work. So there's a lot of forethought. There is a lot of pre-planning. And as this becomes more of an acceptable way for people to purchase property, there will be, I believe, a new development in the way we finance property, in the way that we recognise fractional pieces of property. We're not quite there yet, but I do believe with demand it will change.

DM: Do you do you talk complicated? Well, you talk about it being acceptable. I mean, how do you think our attitudes about these kinds of living arrangements need to change, adapt?

LESLI GAYNOR: Well, I think we have to get rid of this notion of individualism, and that has to be my place with, you know, my home. I think we've done a disservice to helping people live in community. I think we need to shift. We need to see that the shared economy, which is all around us, I mean, Airbnb, shared cars. I mean, it's exploding. This is just another layer of the shared economy we can learn and condos do it. I mean, people live in community. I mean, I use that word very loosely when I talk about the continent. These last set of bylaws, you know, there are rules and regulations. We just need to expand our notion of how we can create home and already existing stock in Toronto.

DM: Lesli, thanks for sharing your time.

LESLI GAYNOR: Oh, thank you so much.

DM: Lesli Gaynor is the founder of Gold Coast Solutions.

SOUNDCLIP

You know, when you're doing high school career and personal planning unit, yeah. It's not something where you you envision your life ending up where it's like, okay, I'm going to do everything right. I'm going to get a good education, get a good job, and then I'm still going to be living like I was right after the start of university. I feel like my life really hasn't progressed from then. You know, I look at my parents and they were homeowners already and starting a family. And I think it's hard when you don't have stability in your life to kind of move on to that next stage. So it's it's very difficult and, you know, frustrating.

DM: That's Aaron Ottho, again, 40 years old, renting with a friend, the number of apartments or homes being shared by either several generations of a family, more than one family or people who may not be related to each other, grew by 45% over the last 20 years. My next two guests have some expertise on what's driving this need to cohabitate later in life. Armine Yalnizyan is an economist and the Atkinson Fellow on the Future of Workers. And Shannon Lee Simmons is a certified financial planner and the founder of the New School of Finance. Hello to you both.

LESLI GAYNOR: Good morning.

ARMINE YALNIZYAN: Hello there, Duncan.

DM: Shannon, how often are you hearing that frustration from your clients that they can't afford to live as they'd expected?

SHANNON LEE SHANNON: Yeah, it's I mean, I've been hearing it for a while now, but even especially in the last few years, it's really, really become apparent. And the frustration is growing because the people that I'm chatting with were frustrated back in 2017 and are still frustrated today. They're what a lot of people are still feeling stuck like. They can't like they're priced out. And so not only priced out of the housing market, but also in certain urban centres priced out of the rental market too, which is why we're seeing that need to share and cohabitate, because even the renting is becoming really unaffordable for people who make, you know, a really decent living wage.

DM: I'm wondering, Shannon, as I listen to Maggie, I mean, I could just hear in her voice, I mean, just a resignation to having to go this step. What are what are they telling you, Shannon, about how they feel about their circumstances, the people you're speaking?

SHANNON LEE SHANNON: Yeah, I heard that, too. And I think that there's two camps of people that I'm chatting with. So I think that there's the people who really dreamed of it, who really thought that if they, you know, just like your previous guest said to Erin, where, you know, I have a good education, I've got a good job, I did all the things that I thought I was supposed to do. And I'm very frustrated that, like, I'll never own it. It's so far gone at this point for people that there is that sense of like frustrated resignation. And then I'm also in a hopeful way. I'm also seeing with this, you know, cost sharing stuff, the creativity and the, I guess, acceptance that things are different and that maybe, you know, even especially in a city like Toronto. Maybe kind of like New York City. The idea of owning is so bananas that, like you, it's laughable almost. And so that makes it almost okay, so that you can get creative and be excited about maybe new ways that you're able to do stuff. So I have both people that I'm talking with. Some are still feeling very frustrated and very, you know, sad about the fact that this is something they wanted and they just don't see financially how they can make it happen given everything that's going on. And then I'm also seeing a shift in some people into, okay, well, this is what it is and I'm going to find a new and creative way that I can interact with the housing market.

DM: Armine, what does this trend of more adults cohabitating tell you?

ARMINE YALNIZYAN: Well, actually, the interesting thing is the group that you're talking about, the 20 to 40 year olds, there's more of them than there are boomers. And so it is the baby boom, the boom left. And lots of people, you know, I'd say, well, the statistics show that about over two thirds of them live in just eight cities. So, like, they're all glomming to bigger places. So there's a big push of them that want to live somewhere. And that's colliding with the last few years of basically free money for people that could leverage money. And, you know, increasingly, there are landlords that are buying up properties and jacking up rents. So we are looking at this perfect storm of things happening. The other element that we haven't discussed is that COVID took a phenomenon that has existed forever. About 35% of people under the age of 35 live with their parents between the ages of 20 and 35. Most of them don't, but most of them tended to be in couples, and fewer people have formed couples because of the pandemic. So, you know, when you are living with somebody, as your previous guest had talked about with this creative go co thing, like if you can live with somebody or share costs, you can share overheads, life is more affordable. And as fewer people are basically getting together, partly because of the pandemic, and it becomes harder to get together when you're living with roomies, frankly. We mustn't overstate how big a phenomenon this is or how quickly it could change with, for example, the Bank of Canada cranking up rates and making it harder for the housing bubble that has been building for over 12 years now to start deflating, if not bursting. And we will see changes. They just won't happen fast enough for this cohort of people that are perhaps in their thirties to forties and really feeling exactly, as Lesli has said, a mixture of sadness and creativity.

DM: One thing one thing you haven't mentioned, Armine, what about salaries? I mean, as as the cost of living goes up, what's happening with salaries right now to influence this?

ARMINE YALNIZYAN: Well, of course, wages are also going up. What we don't know is whose wages are going up yet. We haven't done that work. But in the United States, it's lower paid workers who have seen the fastest increases. But it isn't enough to keep up with increases in rents. You know, the turnover rate, even though there's rental caps in almost every jurisdiction because more businesses are buying rental properties, to the point that Lesli was just making, that even rents are getting harder to cover because these new owners are doing minimal renovations, turning the properties over and then jacking up beyond rental rates. So governments really need to do more about rent caps if they're not going to be building the volume of affordable rental housing that is required.

DM: Shannon, as I was listening to Aaron, he was talking about his parents owning a home by the time he was his age. That's a typical expectation, I suppose, for a lot of Canadians. How important is it to shift that thinking?

SHANNON LEE SHANNON: Yeah, I think it is important because home ownership doesn't have to be the only part of financial wealth down the road. I think that that is something that a lot of people right now see what happened with the boomers. Right. And even a lot of Gen-X where you bought a house and then you had this massive growth in the housing market and was able to allow you to do all these things or maybe downsize one day. And so it feels like it's a silver bullet for retirement security and long term financial security, but it's not the only way. And so I think that finding and showing people and thinking about, okay, well, even if you're renting, we can still have a very secure, very healthy retirement. There can be lots of financial wealth accumulation over the same amount of time because there's lots of other benefits to renting, like, hey, the pipes are leaking, not your problem. So I know that that's a very age old thing to say, but it's very true. And so I feel like as we shift and if the housing market does, you know, come down a little bit and the bubble the bubble bursts or whatever we're going to see in the future for the housing market, I think that that might help people who are renting feel like, okay, so there is volatility there too, because right now in the last 12 years, there's been volatility, a lot of volatility in stock markets, ups and downs, but not so much in the housing market. And I think that's why people feel like it's a safe bet. It's a secure bet, like that's what I can count on. And so I just think we need to even it out that there's lots of ways to build wealth over time. And it doesn't necessarily mean that you're not going to have a secure future just because you don't own a home.

DM: If we're talking about rethinking, I mean, do we need to rethink? I mean, there are plenty of different cultural attitudes about living at home and and families living under the same roof. Armine, I mean, how much does does that play into making this kind of situation work?

ARMINE YALNIZYAN: Oh, you know, generationally, we go through big waves like this. In the fifties, there were a lot of people that lived in rooming houses. It was the option for these really big houses that nobody could afford to live in anymore. They were renting out room by room. So there are always large waves of change in society, but these changes happen very slowly and people that feel stuck, as Shannon has described, people that want to build their wealth because or actually just have a little bit more control over where they're living, because rental housing is often outside of your control. You either don't get the fixes done or you may get evicted with very short notice. So that's one of the reasons why people want to own their homes is they have a little bit more control and security. And if that is out of reach, often other forms of wealth creation are out of reach for the same people. You know, we're talking about a lot of people who are seeing wage gains, but just not enough to cover the basics like food, gas and shelter costs right now. So I think we've got a real challenge for public policymakers to make sure everybody has- every job is a good job in an era of population ageing, and everybody's got access to the basics like food and housing and basic public services. And we're well on the way to having that conversation. We can't expect the markets to deliver. The markets have failed in the era of free money, so we really have to have our elected representatives pick up the pace on making sure people have the basics. Don't forget, we live in the ninth largest economy on the surface of the planet. We can absolutely do whatever it is we choose to do as a society, but we have to work together. We can't just expect markets to deliver the goods or deliver the goods. Good.

DM: I'm still wrestling with something practical that Lesli was talking about. And Shannon, I wonder if I can ask you this. I mean, what do you do? How do we talk about dispute resolution in these kinds of you know what, if someone wants to do change, put in a front garden and you don't want to have a front garden. I mean, how how how do we need to to start to think differently about these kinds of arrangements?

SHANNON LEE SHANNON: Yeah, I think really honestly and what Leslie said earlier, it's all about talking about it upfront before there's even before anyone has signed any document and is, you know, sharing a space together is the kind of work through all of the possible dispute resolution problems that could come up. So I have some clients who they have a big document about, literally, it's on paper, like what happens if this many people want to fix the eavesdropper, this person doesn't or whatever it is. So I think it's like as much as you possibly can, hammering out all of those really potentially, potentially awkward situations that might come down the line. The exit strategies, as Leslie said, as well upfront that you go into whatever co-living or co sharing space that you're going to go into and everybody knows exactly what's expected of them. I think that truly is having it really upfront and being really vulnerable and really honest with everybody. Because again, the more open and. Everybody is, the more likely it's going to work and everyone can potentially benefit from it.

DM: Armine, last word to you. I mean, you're looking at the bigger picture here in terms of the economy, what needs to happen so that Canadians can live together if they want to or on their own, if they want to do that to.

ARMINE YALNIZYAN: Oh, I don't have a clip for you for the end of it. There are so many confounding factors that I think it's going to take a long while to unwind from the situation we're in. The good news is that I think over the medium term, we are going to see a softening of the insane demand in housing markets. We may even see a correction in housing prices. And as the boomers age out of their homes, more housing stock are going to come out and talk about cooperative living, living with roommates. That's what's going to happen for seniors, right? People that don't want to enter long term care facilities but can't stay.

DM: There's a whole group of seniors who are absolutely, who are looking at those kinds of arrangement arrangements. Thank you both for joining us to talk about this today.

ARMINE YALNIZYAN: Thank you.

SHANNON LEE SHANNON: Thanks so much.

DM: Armenian this yen is an economist and the Atkinson fellow on the future of workers. And Shannon Lee Simmons is a certified financial planner and the founder of the New School of Finance. Over to you. What's your experience been? Have you had to move in with people at a time when you hoped you would be living on your own or just with your close family? Let us know by email, The Current at cbc.ca or on Twitter. We're at The Current CBC. Coming up after your regional update, brother Glen Doughty was one of the abusers at the Cooper Island Residential School. I was able to reach him and learn some troubling information about his whereabouts. That's all in the next episode of Kuper Island and Duncan McCue. You're listening to The Current.

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Episode six of CBC podcast Kuper Island

DM: I'm Duncan McCue and you're listening to The Current. I spent the past year working on the CBC podcast, Kuper Island. I spoke with survivors of that residential school and dug into what happened there. We're continuing today with episode six and a warning that what we're talking about is abuse and sexual abuse of children and the lasting trauma of residential school. Please take care while listening.

SOUNDCLIP

DM: In 1970, two days before Christmas, an article ran in the Victoria Daily Times about how staff at Kuper Island were trying to make the residential school feel like home for the holidays. The newspaper ran a photo with the story. It shows a white woman wearing glasses. She's sort of tucked away, hovering over a table of indigenous kids doing crafts. She's got an uneasy smile. The caption reads: Childcare worker Dolores Flance, age 21, watches cut out fun. I'm glad it sounded worse.

DOLORES FLANCE: When you first called and said, I'm Duncan McCue, I almost said, Yeah, and I'm Santa Claus and hung up. But I recognise your voice. You know, you've been on the radio once or twice.

DM: I've been on a couple times. Dolores, thank you for doing this.

DOLORES FLANCE: I feel it has to be done. And if I was had a fever and was in the hospital, I'd probably do it.

DM: Dolores doesn't tell many people. She worked at a residential school. But as a Catholic and an ageing white lady, she's tired of doubters who question the stories of survivors. She wants to do her part by setting the record straight about the wrongs she witnessed at Kuper Island. There's also someone else at Kuper quoted in that newspaper article Brother Glen Doughty, a man who'd later be convicted of sexually abusing multiple boys at the school. He calls his work there very rewarding. He says his job is to, quote, put them to bed, feed them, spank them and love them. Turns out he's still alive, too. I'm Duncan McCue, and this is Kuper Island Episode six, It Didn't Feel Like Justice.

[Music]

DM: We found Delores living in a small town on the remote tip of Vancouver Island. She only worked at the Kuper Island School for about a year in the early seventies. But what she witnessed has been gnawing at her her entire life. She got the job there when she met a nun on the streets of Victoria.

DOLORES FLANCE: Well, I was just placed with the little girls and told basically what I had to do was basic supervision of their behaviour.

DM: When Dolores arrived at Kuper Island, she went upstairs to see where the little girls slept.

DOLORES FLANCE: It was so bare and desolate looking, seeing 36 metal bands in a row, all with white bedspreads and white walls. It was I don't know how to describe that feeling. You know, there was nothing to make them grin or smile, no colour. I was shocked.

DM: She never felt comfortable with how the nuns treated the children.

DOLORES FLANCE: She would wash their mouths out for real, with soap, when they spoke their own language. Made me want to throw up. And it does now. How can you do that? For Christ's sake. And I mean, for Christ's sake, how can somebody do that? Oh, God. I remember her calling one of the girls a dirty little Indian.

DM: I ask Dolores how the priests treated the staff and children.

DOLORES FLANCE: Oh, God. You did exactly what they told you to do. And nothing, added nothing, and taken away if you didn't, you'd be screamed at. The perpetrator that I knew was excellent with the kids. He did a lot of crafts and a lot of stuff with them, but he had this other side to him that was very violent.

DM: The perpetrator that Delores is referring to is Brother Glenn Doghyy. She saw that other side of him one day in mid-September, 1971. It started when she heard some screaming coming from the boy's side.

DOLORES FLANCE: Help! Help! Stop! That hurts. It just was really bitter screaming. And I looked out the window to see if the boys were fighting and there was no kids outside at all. So I followed the screaming noise inside the building until I came right in front of a male staff members door. And it was coming from in there.

DM: It was Glen Doughtyy's room. Dolores stopped. She was scared. She paused to say a prayer.

DOLORES FLANCE: Just at that moment, the door opened and the staff member and the child came out. And I have never seen such abject fear as what I saw in that child. And I have never seen such abject evil as what was in that man. He was staring at me like it was hellfire himself.

DM: The boy also looked at Dolores.

DOLORES FLANCE: And he was staring at me like, Do something. I could see him leaning towards me. It was trying to get away, but Doughty wouldn't let him go. And I didn't know what to do. Glenn was hanging on to him. He looked like he was in a rage.

DM: Until this conversation with Dolores, everything I'd heard about Cooper Island was from the perspective of kids in a traumatic situation. But Dolores was an adult at the time, someone old enough to do something about it.

DOLORES FLANCE: I went straight to the administrators office.

DM: The administrator was Father Larry Mackey.

DOLORES FLANCE: And I started to tell him I had been up on the boys side and I had heard this. He literally jumped out of his office chair and screamed at me, I can't even duplicate it. Pack up your things and get out. He may have already have known there was something going on but didn't want to hear about it. I don't know. I quit after four more months there. I couldn't stand it.

DM: She left for university and did her best to block this awful memory. As for Father Larry Mackey, he'd go from Kuper Island to run an addiction support centre in Vancouver's troubled Downtown Eastside. A lot of Indigenous people lived there. The centre focussed on helping people who had traumatic childhoods, including suffering sexual abuse. A few decades would pass until Delores heard the name Glen Doughty again.

DOLORES FLANCE: I think it was in the eighties in one of the Vancouver papers newspapers.

DM: It was the late eighties when former residential school students started breaking the silence about what happened to them as little kids. Phil Fontaine, then the leader of the Assembly of First Nations, the largest first nation organisation in Canada, was one of the first to speak publicly in a tell all interview on national TV.

SOUNDCLIP

ANNOUNCER: The Journal with Barbara Frum.

PHIL: I was asked how prevalent this was, and to illustrate my point, I had suggested that if we took an example of my grade three class, every single one of the 20 would have experienced what I experience.

BARBARA: Are you saying every one of 20 was sexually abused?

PHIL: They've experienced some aspect of sexual abuse.

DM: It was a watershed moment. A flood of disclosures followed from residential schools across Canada. In British Columbia, police were overwhelmed. They'd set out to investigate one claim against one guy at one school and discover it was the tip of the iceberg. So in 1995, the RCMP launched a special task force to look into crimes at all B.C. residential schools.

SOUNDCLIP

ANNOUNCER: Natives have mixed feelings about whether the investigation will be worthwhile if those who abused them in residential schools are not brought to justice.

DM: Behind the scenes, investigators were struggling, according to an RCMP report that we uncovered. Not only were churches protecting records, the Mounties accused the Government of Canada of interfering in the investigations, especially the one into Kuper Island. Here's what was going on: Police were urging victims to come forward to disclose what happened to them, to name names. But the Department of Justice wanted to get their hands on those witness statements, looking for negative bits of information about the victims lives. Anything to help the federal government defend itself in an ever growing number of civil lawsuits. In other words, Kuper Island survivors were telling police their stories, thinking they'd be used to prosecute criminals. Yet Canada wanted to use the statements to limit compensation to these same survivors or avoid payouts altogether. To their credit, the Mounties saw it as a conflict of interest and spent two years fighting the justice lawyers. But then during that process, they mistakenly handed over the confidential files that threatened to derail the task force. How could victims trust police if police were sharing with the federal government?

SOUNDCLIP

And there is a tremendous amount of anger out there, and it's going to be there for a long time until we deal with these issues.

DM: In the end, after eight years, the task force collected over 500 separate allegations of sexual assault. That's just at residential schools in B.C. They identified over 200 suspects alleged to have committed sexual offences.

SOUNDCLIP

ANNOUNCER: The RCMP admit many of the suspects in their investigation may never be charged or convicted.

DM: A third of them were already dead. Only 14 men were charged.

SOUNDCLIP

They're going to be in their more senior years. Some are going to be deceased. Some may be infirm. Or in that category where Crown Counsel chooses not to in the public's interest to go ahead.

DM: And at Kuper, there were an alarmingly high number of sexual abuse complaints involving multiple suspects. But only one man was charged. Glenn Doughty. After his time in B.C., Doughty had returned to his home province of Ontario. He became a counsellor and chaplain at a university in Thunder Bay, and he was convicted there of sexual offences. We found a blog about abuse cases amongst Catholic clergy in Canada, where a mother in Thunder Bay described how Doughty abused her son in a youth group. Here's my producer, Jody, reading parts of it. And his tactics sounded familiar.

SOUNDCLIP

I'm a mother of a boy who was groomed and controlled by brother Glenn Doughty. This was during the time when Glenn was heading up a boys youth group originating at the church. Glenn took the boys to the church's camp. There he would ply these 11, 12, 13 year old boys with beer and other alcohol. He also told them he was a trained psychologist who was specialised in hypnotherapy. The children were told that God wanted them to do these things for him as he was under stress and he needed to be feeling well in order to do his job for God.

DM: By the 1990s, Doughty had already served a few months in prison for sexually abusing boys at a residential school near Williams Lake and four more months for abuse at Kuper Island. Now, with the larger police task force investigation, Doughty was facing a new set of Kuper charges. 42 counts in all. Doughty wound up pleading guilty to 11 counts of indecent assault and one count of buggery involving 11 different victims. He received a three year jail sentence to be served at William Head, a minimum security prison in B.C., sometimes referred to as club fed. As all this was unfolding, some Kuper Island survivors were also suing Doughty, the Catholic Church and government. A lawyer named David Patterson represented some of the survivors, including James and Tony Charlie. As he dug into the case, he found himself trying to understand what made Glen Doughty tick.

DAVID PATTERSON: Glen Dooley was a young man from northern Ontario. I think he was from Timmins. He decided that he would go off and join the Oblates, and he was immediately assigned to work in Indian residential schools as a dormitory supervisor. And back in those days there was no formal training process. Any adult could simply be assigned as a dormitory supervisor. I think he thought that he was in love with these boys, that he cherished them, that he hoped that they felt the same way about him. I think he was just a very confused young man. I mean, he was also a predator. I'm not trying to make excuses for him.

DM: In the civil lawsuits, numerous survivors raised multiple allegations against Doughty. He admitted to some, denied others. Lawyers for the Oblates, the Catholic Church and the Canadian government were fighting tooth and nail to minimise compensation for survivors. They aggressively cross-examined them about other harms in their lives, using arguments like this.

DAVID PATTERSON: Well, okay, maybe this stuff happened, but that's not really the cause of the difficulties you faced throughout your life. You were raised in poverty. Your parents had dysfunctional relationships. They had been to residential school. You may have been abused by your parents or by uncles. How do you know that it's the sexual abuse you suffered that's responsible for your difficulties in life? The church and the government could only be liable for the harms that were suffered over and above, the harms that would have been suffered by the children in any event, including harms that occurred at the residential school, such as physical abuse, cultural shaming, violence, that sort of thing. How much of what went wrong in your life is because you had lousy parents. You know, when you went out and got drunk, were you thinking of Glen Doughty?

DM: The church and government were willing to concede. Residential school students literally had their culture beaten out of them. But those admissions didn't cost a penny. The statute of limitations had expired. Harms from sexual abuse, on the other hand, would mean big payouts.

DAVID PATTERSON: The notion of having the church and the government vigorously argue that their mistreatment of these children in residential school was so bad that they would have come out basket cases anyways was distasteful and I thought the court should have turned its back on that kind of argument. But at the end of the day, it didn't.

JAMES: I think I must have answered 800 questions for all the same.

DM: James and Tony were amongst the first survivors in Canada to sue the church and government. Here's James on how it felt to face the lawyers.

JAMES: Why didn't you say no? Why didn't you tell somebody? And then after that session is over, we kind of questions. Then the Canadian government church advisors who went first would ask the same questions again. And finally I said, What do you guys want from. I told you really what happened, because I blew it when I told them that therefore I was not equitable. Would do you call it? Witness? Yeah.

DM: Compensation was based on a sliding scale of how bad their abuse was. But you guys were were the ones that led the way. You led the way to what ended up happening with the settlement for all survivors.

JAMES: Yeah. We were that. Yeah. The scale was drawn from our, our discovery.

DM: And you guys were first.

JAMES: Yeah. So then scale of one to 10. I was probably a two, I guess. Yeah, I was a two.

DM: Was that upsetting to be downgraded to a two?

JAMES: Yeah, they never told me I was two, but I had a very low settlement.

DM: How much did you end up getting in cash, do you remember?

JAMES: I think 30 some what thousand. Yeah. Yeah.

DM: Tony eventually settled, too. Having his past dissected in court took a toll. The grilling they faced in the adversarial legal system later led Canada to design a kinder, gentler adjudication process to deal with thousands of survivors compensation claims. But James and Tony's experience with the civil process was a bitter one. And learning of Glen Doughty's criminal sentence didn't make things better. He did get three years in prison. How did that feel when you heard that sentence?

JAMES: Yeah, I could go and get impaired tomorrow and I get three years for for impaired driving, you know, because I'm first nation.

TONY: Legally, that was his punishment, three years. But I have to live my life today with all those pains and all those memories, all those incidents forever. Every night. Every day.

DM: Just before the Kuper Island criminal charges surfaced in 2000, Glenn Doughty took shelter at a place called Spring Hurst.

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[Sound: Phone ringing]

OPERATOR: Good afternoon, Springer.

DM: Hi. I was wondering if Brother Dowdy is in.

Uh...

DM: Spring Hurst as a retirement home for Oblates in downtown Ottawa, owned by the Oblates of Mary Immaculate. The order of missionaries that ran Kuper Island and nearly 50 residential schools.

SOUNDCLIP

OPERATOR: He left last year.

DM: Last year. Okay. He didn't leave any, did he leave a forwarding address or a number that I could reach out to him?

DM: No. No.

DM: Dear. That's too bad. How was he doing when he left?

OPERATOR: Um. Okay. I guess.

DM: He was in good health?

OPERATOR: I guess so.

DM: We started digging into archives the Catholic Church's phone directory for Clergy, an Oblate newsletter to figure out how many known sexual abusers have been housed at Spring Hurst. We found at least nine convicted sex offenders had taken refuge there. Men who abused children in residential schools, northern indigenous communities or various parishes across the country.

SOUNDCLIP

OPERATOR: Okay, Mr. McCue, I'll have him call you.

DM: Thanks very much for your help.

OPERATOR: All right. Bye bye.

DM: I left my name and phone number and asked for an interview with someone there to understand how Spring Hurst operates, why they shelter convicted and alleged sexual offenders, and who pays for them to live out their old age in this comfortable setting overlooking the Rio River. As for Glenn Doughty, he wasn't there anymore, but he wasn't hiding. We found him on social media. One smiling photo had a slogan on it that said Out Proud and in recovery. He referred to completing a degree in clinical pastoral counselling from the University of Ottawa. We found pictures of his paintings, including one that shows tepees in a field. There's another showing a boat off a rugged shore titled: Memories of When I Lived on the West Coast. Someone commented, asking him what he'd be painting next. He answered, I have a whole series on my experience with natives that I'm contemplating. We also found a phone number for Glen Doughty. I tried it, but it went to voicemail. I decided not to leave a message and hung up. Here's me updating my producers, Martha and Jody on what happened next. [To Martha an Jody] And then we were walking away and I said, You know what? Let's just like, let's get the voice message down. Like, it's a voice message. It's something like, you know.

MARTHA: Yeah.

DM: And he answered.

JODY: Oh, no.

MARTHA: No way. Wow. Okay. Okay.

DM: And he said, Yes, yes, how can I help you? And so anyway, he was out shopping and said, Yeah, I'm a bit busy right now. And then he said, Do you want to call back? And I said, Sure, I can call back. When he said, Well, I call back in an hour. And then he said, By the way, what's this regarding? And so I said, Well, I'm doing a podcast on residential schools. And then his tone just totally changed. And then he said, I don't know if I want to talk about that. He said, I've had too much grief over it all. And so we started getting into it a little bit. And so at that point I decided that, you know, the best thing to do was to try to build a rapport and get a phone call up, you know, get any kind of conversation going. So I said I could I can understand that. I can understand that there's been a lot of suffering. It did feel a little awkward, but any way, this is what kind of stuck out. I said, you know, how do you would like to know how you feel about truth and reconciliation and etc., etc.? He said, Well, he said, the truth is still the truth, but the lies are still lies.

MARTHA: And what does that mean?

DM: Well, I said, Well, what do you mean by that? You know, lies are still the lies. And he said, Well, there have been all kinds of accusations and presumptions and and they're all wrong. All wrong. And I said, Do you mind if I phone you back? And he said, Yeah. I said, How about midweek? And and he said, okay.

JODY: But so so you hang up and then what's racing through your mind?

DM: His tone surprised me. You know, like we've been reading the court reports about him expressing remorse, apologising on three separate occasions, on all the occasions that he was brought before the court, that he pled guilty, you know, not to all the charges he was facing, but to enough charges to have to do jail time. I mean, he pled guilty. So when he said this line, you know, the truth is still true, but the lies are still lies. I was surprised because there was- he, he feels wronged. I still hope to convince Glen Doughty to do an interview. He'd ask me to phone back, but when I did, he curtly said he'd consulted his lawyer and psychologist. They advised him not to talk. Then he hung up on me. He didn't respond to any more of my requests. I didn't want our work to be a surprise or fresh source of pain for survivors who had already been hurt so much. I had to bring this back to James and Tony and let the cards fall where they may. I don't know if you guys want to hear this or not, but we also tracked down Glenn Doughty and figured out what he's been up to - I told them what we'd learnt. I wasn't sure how they'd react - but I do have the phone conversation that I had with him on tape. If you'd like to listen to it. If you don't, that's understandable.

JAMES: I don't think I'm going to get anything from him. Counselling or not. Artist or not. You know, I don't think I'm going to get anything from him.

TONY: Well, I'm like you. I put Ann Dowd in on the back burner. I know what he has done. I have witnessed some of the things he has done. And I have no desire to leave any anger or anything like that. I am in good frame of mind when I come in. I want to leave it in that frame of mind. I don't want to be hurt any way. I do want my wife to have to share that that burden with me. And I don't want to go there. So I'm like, Tony, I know enough about him, and I don't want to know any more about him.

DM: Tony and James didn't have any more questions about Glen Doughty, but I did. If the Oblates had pledged in court to keep watch over him, why weren't they?

DM: If you're a survivor or an intergenerational survivor of residential schools and you need support, you can reach the Indian Residential Schools Crisis Line at 1 866 925 4419. That's 1 866 925 4419. And we'll hear the next episode of Kuper Island tomorrow. Well, that's our programme for today. Stay tuned to Radio One for q. To feminist films from the 1990s, A League of Their Own and Buffy the Vampire Slayer are turning a 30 this year. Panellists Tranna Wintour and Allison Dore will debate and discuss their legacies. I still remember League of Their Own. That scene that Tom Hanks character says, Listen, there's no crying in baseball. There's no crying in baseball. Okay. I'm Duncan McHugh in for Matt Galloway. Chi miigwech. Thanks for listening to The Current today.

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