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The AIH Transcript for Jun 24, 2022

TOM HARRIGNTON: Hi there. I'm Tom Harrington.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Theme]

Prologue

TH: No choice. After the U.S. Supreme Court officially overturns Roe V. Wade, an abortion rights advocate in Mississippi says she's devastated -- but she'll keep helping women get the procedure, even if it means breaking the law.

CH: Hands up, arms down. A month after the mass shooting in Uvalde, Texas Democrats call for "lifesaving gun safety legislation" -- so students will be safe returning to class in the fall.

TH: Stolen moments. A documentary filmmaker got up close with Donald Trump before and after the riots of January 6th -- and he says the former president truly -- and falsely -- believes that he was robbed of an election win.

CH: Political animal. This week, the deputy premier of Newfoundland and Labrador attended an important summit with a colleague -- her Labrador Retriever, Beau, who won Best in Breed at the Westminster Dog Show.

TH: Sky line above the skyline. Five planets are in alignment right now -- and they won't be again until 2040. So if you get your camera set up -- and stay up late enough -- you can take a shot in the dark.

CH: And… sturgical focus. Two Alberta fisherman are catching their breath after catching a truly mammoth fish -- a 110-year-old sturgeon that weighed over 300 kilograms.

CH: As It Happens, the Friday edition. Radio that's sure the fish was upset -- but big gills don't cry.

Part 1: Roe V Wade Mississippi, Uvalde Guns, Giant Sturgeon

Roe V Wade Mississippi

Guest: Michelle Colon

CH: Now, it's official. As you've been hearing on the news, the U.S. Supreme Court has overturned Roe v. Wade. Americans have now lost the constitutional right to an abortion -- although individual states can still decide if the procedure should be legal. Thirteen states have so-called "trigger laws" on the books, meaning abortion will likely be banned there within days. Mississippi is one of those states. Michelle Colon is a longtime abortion rights advocate who runs a non-profit that helps people find abortion services. We reached her in Jackson, Mississippi.

TH: Michelle, as a woman in Mississippi today, how are you feeling?

MICHELLE COLON: As a Black woman in Mississippi today, I am not surprised. It is devastating, nonetheless. SCOTUS, you know, made it perfectly clear that they do not care about the lives of women and girls and pregnant people. That they do not care about our health care. About our existence. About our lives. They made it perfectly clear with their decision today. So that's how I feel.

TH: You're getting calls from Mississippi women about getting an abortion. What do you tell them?

MC: I tell them that I'm here for them. And that, you know, that this decision only makes it impossible for you to get an abortion in Mississippi. But there are still, you know, other options. There are still clinics that we can get them to. There's also, you know, self-managed abortion. So that's what I'm telling them. That you can still receive a safe… you know, have a safe abortion, even though abortion is now illegal in… you know, in Mississippi and in a majority of this country.

TH: Have you had any calls since the decision was even announced?

MC: You know, right now everybody is… basically it's the press and, you know, folks, other, you know, fellow activists and friends, offering, you know, support. And I'm going to tell them the same thing. I'm going to defy this ruling, to defy this… this law with everything in my being. It is unjust. It is discriminatory. It is misogynistic. It is racist. It's everything.

TH: When you get a call from a woman seeking an abortion, what's their story? Give me an example of the kind of things you hear?

MC: I mean, it really doesn't matter what the story is, you know? And I don't want that to be the issue. The reality of it is, is that for so long, the narrative has been, you know, what's the story? What's… it… it doesn't matter what their story is. This is something that somebody… someone is not prepared to become a parent. Someone is not prepared to give birth and have a child. So, I don't care, you know, what their reason is. I don't ask that, and I don't, you know… I don't demand that of anyone.

TH: I noticed one company, JPMorgan, I guess, the bank says it will pay for its employees to go out of state wherever they may be to get an abortion. How hopeful are you that might happen with businesses in Mississippi?

MC: [scoff] Well, I want to applaud JPMorgan for doing that, but I don't think there is a business in Mississippi that is going to publicly, first of all, publicly, say that. The majority of Mississippi, you know, even if they are a company that may be progressive, it… that would be a death sentence for a business here in Mississippi to publicly come out and basically say that they support abortion rights. So, it's unlikely. And I would challenge any of the Mississippi businesses to make me eat my words.

TH: You've talked about defying the law. How do you do that?

MC: Hmm. I'm not going to share my plans with you because that would… you know… that would, you know, be self-incrimination. That would make me, you know, be… I'd be incriminating myself. I'm going to do… only thing I can say is that I'm going to defy the law. I'm going to defy this law because it is… it is an unjust law. This is a law that is so rooted in white supremacy. So rooted in this misogynistic narrative. This is all about ideology. And this has never had anything to do with the lives of mothers or children. This is about control.

TH: If you defy the law, what could be the consequences for you?

MC: Well, the consequence is a fine and going to jail.

TH: And why are you prepared to do that?

MC: That's the consequences. I'm prepared to do that because as a woman who has been in this situation, I refuse to bow down to, you know, white supremacy at its… at its highest. Misogyny at its highest. I just refuse. I refuse. I'm not going to allow them to take this away from me. And allow them to take this away from other people. So that's all I'm going to say on that. That's why I'm doing it. Because people need to have access to abortion. Abortion is a liberation.

TH: Michelle, you mentioned that it… you called it a racist law. How does the effect of the law differ between, say, Black women in the state and white?

MC: Because Black and Brown women, Black and Brown people, are more subjected to becoming criminal… being criminalized with this law. And Black and Brown people are already facing so many other obstacles versus white women. You know, we're already living in existing, you know, health access deserts, food deserts, educational deserts, they don't have access to a primary care physician. And actually, they're going to be more targeted than white women.

TH: You've been doing this work for a long time. I wonder just how hard a moment this is after all that?

MC: It hasn't sunk into me yet. I don't have the luxury as a Black woman in the South doing this. Where I don't have the luxury to, you know, sit back and have a pity party just yet. So it hasn't really sunk… you know, sunk into me yet. Again, I'm a realist. And, you know, this is something that has been in the making for, you know, nearly 50 years. The anti-abortion terrorist movement, it never took a day off. They have been working on this since, you know, Roe was decided in '73. So now, the rest of the country, unfortunately, will know what it feels like to be a pregnant person in Mississippi. It's a very, very sad day for America, that America who, you know, claims to be this country of liberty and opportunity and freedom. That here, we are criminalizing abortion in 2022, when so many other countries, you know, like Ireland and other countries in Latin America, have repealed their abortion laws in regards to criminalizing abortion. So, you know, it's really, really sad that pregnant people in Mexico will have, you know, access to abortion. But people, women, people here in America will not.

TH: Michelle, thanks for talking to us.

MC: Sure. My pleasure. Thank you. Bye-bye.

CH: Michelle Colon is the Executive Director of SHERo Mississippi. We reached her in Jackson. And for more on that story, go to our website: www.cbc.ca/aih. Meanwhile, anti-abortion activists are celebrating. Earlier today, CNN spoke to Savannah Craven outside the Supreme Court in Washington, D.C.

[sc]

SAVANNAH CRAVEN: One of my good friends got pregnant, our senior year of high school. She found herself in an unplanned pregnancy and she had everything and everyone around her telling her that she couldn't do this because she was young. She didn't have enough money. She didn't have the means to have a child at this moment. And I was the only person that was there telling her… we didn't know each other very well. We were only a couple of months into our senior year, and I told her, I was like, you know, I don't know why, but I feel as though you are meant to be a mother to this child. And I am going to be here for you. I am going to support you every single step of the way. And she has gone… you know, she has taken her circumstances and just achieved so much. Not only is she an amazing mother to a soon-to-be three-year-old beautiful little boy, but she is now living in her own place. She's starting school. She has a great job. And she did it. I want women to know -- I want everyone to know -- that women are stronger than their circumstances. And no matter what situation that you find yourself in, the post-Roe generation, the pro-life generation, is here to say you can. Abortion tells women you can't. You can't go to college. You can't achieve your dreams. You have to have the right to end the life of your child so that you can live your dream. And I think that's misogyny. I think that that is disgusting. And I think that we're better than that in 2022. And clearly, that… our justices think so as well.

[/sc]

CH: That was anti-abortion activist Savannah Craven speaking to CNN today.

[Acoustic guitar and violin]

Uvalde Guns

Guest: Chris Turner

CH: School is just about out for the summer. But already, Jazmin Cazares says she's worried about returning to school when the summer ends. Exactly one month ago, Jazmin's little sister, Jackie, was killed in the mass shooting at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas. Yesterday, Ms. Cazares spoke to Texas lawmakers in Austin.

[sc]

JAZMIN CAZARES: Having to go back to school next year, I don't know. It's… it's a really big decision. And going to school shouldn't have to be a big decision. But it is. I'm terrified for my life to go back. I have senior year, and that's it. Am I going to survive it? It's unbelievable. Absolutely unbelievable. [Sniffle]

[/sc]

CH: Texas politicians across the political spectrum say they're interested in making students safe. But when it comes to the approach, there are deep divisions. Yesterday, Democrats in the Texas House of Representatives sent a letter to Governor Greg Abbott, urging him to convene the legislature for a special session on gun safety. They say that, before students return to the classroom, they want "common-sense reforms" in place. Chris Turner is the Texas House Democratic Caucus Chair. We reached him in Grand Prairie, Texas.

TH: Mr. Turner, as you point out in your letter to the governor, Texas has had eight mass shootings in 13 years. But I wonder what makes you think the shooting in Uvalde will be the one to bring about change?

CHRIS TURNER: You know, I think that the shooting in Uvalde has affected people in a way that seems different than in the past. And, you know, for the record, the Texas House Democratic Caucus says this is not the first time we have all called for the governor to act. We sent the governor a letter and demanded action from him in 2019 after the mass shooting in El Paso. And, of course, the governor chose to do nothing. But… but we can't… we can't give up. We need to keep the pressure on. And why I think this is somewhat different is because… one, because this just keeps happening. And two, because this… this mass shooting resulted in the death of 19 kids. You know, fourth graders, basically. And… and that has really horrified Texans to a degree that I really haven't seen before. And so… and so, I think that the public is demanding action. We see that in these town hall meetings that our Democratic House members have held across the state of Texas over the last three weeks. And we see it in public opinion polling, where huge majorities of Texans want to see some common sense gun safety reforms.

TH: You mentioned those town halls over the last few weeks. It's been a month now since… since the shooting. What did you hear from people at those town halls?

CT: What we heard consistently is that people are saying enough is enough. They want Texas government to act. They want to keep guns out of the hands of dangerous people. They think that that means closing the background check loopholes so that… that every gun purchase is subject to a background check. Many people want to see the age raised at which you can legally purchase an assault weapon. Texans also want to see that we have some type of red flag law where if law enforcement or someone else can see that someone in possession of a firearm is a risk to someone else or to themselves, that there is an ability to go to court, to go to a judge and let a judge make a determination if that firearm should be removed for some period of time.

TH: Given all you've heard, what exactly are you asking Governor Abbott to do?

CT: We're asking Governor Abbott to use his power to call a special session of the Texas legislature. Only the governor can do that in our state and allow the legislature to immediately pass legislation along the lines of what I've discussed: red flag laws, closing background check loopholes, etc. People want to see action now. They certainly want to see action before the new school year starts, which is less than two months away already. And so, that's why we don't believe that it's a good idea for us to wait until the legislature is scheduled to convene next. And that's not till January of next year.

TH: Yesterday, the U.S. Senate passed the first major gun safety legislation since 1994 -- almost 30 years ago. It still has to pass the House, but everybody says it's going to make it through. What's your reaction to that breakthrough?

CT: You know, I want to give credit where credit is due to the bipartisan group of senators who made that happen, including the Senior Senator from Texas, John Cornyn, who is a conservative Republican. And one of the key things that it will do is incentivize states to adopt their own red flag laws. And that's… that's something that Texans can take advantage of if we can bring in a special session this summer. Irrespective of what Texas does, what the governor decides to do, the federal legislation, once signed by the president, is going to help save lives across the country. I have no doubt about that.

TH: The red flag laws is an interesting breakthrough in the federal law, but it's not clear that the Republicans in your state will go along with it. What are your hopes that they actually will? This is a state dominated by the Republicans at every level.

CT: Well, that's right. And as I said yesterday, I hope that just… just as Senator Cornyn was very persuasive, clearly with the 15 other Republican senators, I hope that he'll use his influence with Governor Abbott to encourage them to take advantage of this federal legislation.

TH: He had said in response to your letter, and I'm reading, quote, the Special Legislative Committees have already begun meeting and deliberating proposed solutions. These House Democrats should work with their colleagues rather than hold press conferences to promote themselves. How do you respond to that?

CT: So, House Democrats who are on those committees are working very hard to develop legislative solutions and policies. But the governor is trying to hide behind these committees. Having a committee in a legislature doesn't accomplish anything in and of itself. A committee meeting with the legislature not scheduled to convene again until 2023 does not accomplish anything. And the governor knows that. And he needs to do his job. In this case, that means call a special session.

TH: And if he doesn't, what tools do you have left?

CT: Well, if he doesn't, one, I think that he's up for election in November, and voters will remember that. And so, he's going to have to answer to the voters for his… his inaction and his weak response. But if the governor, as I said yesterday, if the governor does not call a special session, he can rest assured that Democratic members of the legislature are going to be ready, whether it's in a special session in summer or a regular session next year to fight for common-sense gun safety legislation. We have been fighting for that, and we're going to continue to fight for that, and we're not going to stop until something gets done.

TH: Mr. Turner, good to talk to you. Thanks so much.

CT: You bet. Absolutely. Thank you for your time.

CH: Chris Turner is the Texas House Democratic Caucus Chair. We reached him in Grand Prairie, Texas.

[Ambient synth]

Giant Sturgeon

Guest: Steve Ecklund

[sc]

[Tense orchestra music swells]

CHIEF BRODY: You're going to need a bigger boat.

[/sc]

CH: In that scene from "Jaws", Chief Brody has just come face-to-face with the shark that's been eating everyone in his town. And realized that it's much bigger than he ever could have imagined. And when you see the photos, it's easy to imagine Steve Ecklund and Mark Boise having the exact same reaction a couple of weekends ago. The two Alberta men went fishing in Lillooet, British Columbia, with two experienced guides. And they hooked something that was truly, mind-bogglingly massive. A cold-eyed aquatic monster that stunned everyone in the boat. Although none of them were really scared -- because the monster was a sturgeon. We reached Steve Ecklund in Red Deer, Alberta.

TH: Steve, first of all, the big question, how big was this fish?

STEVE ECKLUND: [laughing] You know, everybody keeps asking that. I mean, this thing was "Jaws". [TH laughs] You know, when it came out of the water, it was… it was remarkable to actually see what we had on the end of the line. Our best estimates with the guys who actually know what they're looking at versus us, you know, somewhere in that neighbourhood of 700 pound, ten-foot-one nose-to-tail, and 57 inches of girth around. It was just enormous.

TH: Wow! And somebody said it's an old fish, too?

SE: You know, I'm not a biologist by any means, but I mean, they're saying north of 100 years old for sure. I know they've landed kind of on a number of 110 years old. How they determined that, I have no idea. I mean, I was too busy taking photos with the fish versus having a conversation with them. [Both chuckling]

TH: Yeah, I get that. [SE chuckles] Listen, from your knowledge, how typical is it for sturgeon to be that big?

SE: It kind of sunk in for us and what we've actually accomplished because just the outfit they were with, River Monster Outfitters, you know, they've landed over 4,000 fish. And this was the largest one they've ever got to take photos with.

TH: Wow. Okay, so let's talk about the catch itself and the fight. How much of a fight was it just to land the thing?

SE: Well, if… if you can imagine getting punched out by Mike Tyson in the peak of his glory years, that's what it felt like when we were done. I had muscles hurting that I didn't even know existed. I'd say anywhere from two, two-and-a-half hours, we fought this fish, the two of us, myself and Mark Boise.

TH: So what would you do? Would you take turns?

SE: No. You know what? We're actually both holding on to the rod. He had it kind of in a little, I don't know, it's like the big deep sea things, you know? They put this belt on you.

TH: Yeah.

SE: And you stick the end of the rod into it.

TH: um-hmm.

SE: And, you know, typically you would yard back on it yourself. And then as you come back down, you'd reel in the slack and fight the fish that way, but you couldn't move the fish. So, it was the most awkward two hours I've ever spent with a good buddy of mine. [TH chuckles] There was a lot of close contact there [Chuckling] because I was wrapped around him and in front of him and behind him and you name it, you know, just kind of grabbing on that rod and helping pull it up to… you know, when we could. But there was times when that fish would just decide, you know what, I'm not… I'm not playing around. I'm just going to sit here. And when he did that, it could be 15 minutes, and you just couldn't budget at all. Or he'd just take off and spool line, right?

TH: So when he took off like that, I'm wondering what that was like, you know, because you hear people like… you hear there's smoke on the line, and your hands are hurting and that sort of thing. What was that like?

SE: You know, it was just like that, really. I mean, luckily, you know, on that river with the currents, you can… you can follow them, basically use the engine to follow them with the boat. But like I said, they said he pulled us… you know, he pulled that boat two river miles, which I'm not quite sure what a river mile is, but around three kilometres, you know, he pulled us around while we fought him.

TH: It's like a… a Nantucket sleigh ride with the whales, I guess. Yeah.

SE: Yeah, exactly. You know, it was, you know, put another barrel on him. He can't get away from us kind of thing. [Both laugh]

TH: What's going through your mind, Steve, when you're… when you're fighting this fish for over two hours?

SE: You know. The… the… the crazy part is, honestly, an-hour-and-15… I think it was about an-hour-15 minutes into it, Mark and I were… you know, you just… you're shaking. You can't feel your arms anymore. It's just all you can do to hang on. And I looked at him, and in joking, I said, I wonder if we could cut the line without the guide seeing us? [Both laughing] We were so exhausted. But --

TH: And you didn't!

SE: You know… no, we didn't. You know, it was one of those things. You're in it, you know, the cake's in the oven. And we knew it was something special. Like I said, when it… when it jumped out of the water, that whole boat went nuts. And, I mean, we didn't… the more excited the guides got, the more excited we got because we really didn't know. This was our first sturgeon fishing trip, you know?

TH: And when you… when you finally landed the fish, what was the reaction among you guys, the guys in the boat, the whole thing?

SE: Oh, I mean, there… you know, it's a good thing we didn't have the TV crew out there filming for the show on this one because I think we would have had to beep out the whole thing. [TH laughs] There was a lot of curse words, a lot of excitement. And just when you… when you kind of get them up, and you can get down in the water with them, if you flip them over, they go docile and they kind of just, you know, chill out and relax. So, seeing… I mean, 10-foot fish, this is the size of a vehicle. I mean, it's, you know, it's incredible. Taking the measurements and… and trying to even hold him for a picture, you get to see that… you know, really feel the girth on this thing. There's no way you could get your arms around it. I mean, it was… it was the biggest thing I've ever seen.

TH: Listen, so the sturgeons are protected, right, in… under the Species at Risk Act. So, what do you do with the fish once you land it?

SE: So, these acting fishermen or guides or outfits on the water are collecting so much data it's like they… they are truly the biologists because they're supplying all this information, length, girth, and they scan the fish for tag. And then, this particular one, it hadn't been tagged. So, it was… it was really neat to watch them go through all that and collect the data to sustain that population. And the more information they have, the better off we can help it survive long-term, right?

TH: Indeed. Well, congratulations on this one, Steve. Appreciate talking to you. Thanks.

SE: Thank you.

CH: That was Steve Ecklund, who -- along with his friend Mark Boise -- landed a 110-year-old, 317-kilogram -- or 700-pound -- sturgeon on the Fraser River. We reached Mr. Ecklund in Red Deer, Alberta.

[Percussive jazz]

Happy Retirement Robin Smythe

CH: I don't know what Monday's episode of As It Happens will sound like. I assume it will sound like a regular episode of As It Happens, and for everyone listening, that's what it will be. But for those of us who make the show, it won't feel like a regular episode at all because it will be the first episode of As It Happens in 20 years that will air without our executive producer Robin Smythe, as an integral part of the show. In preparation for tonight, I searched the archives for a single instance of Robin ever talking on this program. I couldn't find anything. But trust me when I say that you heard her voice anyway. Over her years as a producer, you heard it in every interview she booked, every item she edited, every script she wrote. And when she became senior producer and then executive producer, you heard it in the overall sound of the program. The stories we aired, the guests we booked, and the sensibility that emphasized the delightful along with the devastating. As It Happens would have sounded dramatically different without her. By which, I mean nowhere near as good. Less thoughtful. Less varied. Less interesting. Although there probably would have been more Kate Bush… and more Rush. Like, a lot more Rush. This is Robin's last day with As It Happens. She's retiring from the CBC to go be awesome somewhere else. And right now, it's hard to imagine how we'll manage without her kindness, her wisdom, her sense of humour, her endless patience, her… actually, no. Scratch… scratch endless. You know what? Scratch patience. But everything else I said is true. Robin, we will all miss your voice, but we'll do our best to make sure it continues to echo. Now here's Rush with the entire first side of the classic concept album "2112". I'm just kidding.

[Spanish guitar]

Part 2: Planetary Alignment, Alex Holder

Planetary Alignment

Guest: Elaina Hyde

CH: Is it worth staying up really late and, you know, disrupting a night of sleep to witness a phenomenon that won't take place again for decades? A rare event that will give you a better sense of your place in the universe? Now, some of you just yawned and said, "nope". But for the rest of you: right now, five planets are lined up in the night sky for everyone to witness -- provided we stay up late or get up early enough to see it. Elaina Hyde is the director of the Allan I. Carswell Observatory at York University. And we reached her in Toronto.

TH: Elaina, if someone is out on a clear field tonight and they're going to look up at the sky, probably the middle of the night, I'm guessing, what would they be able to see?

ELAINA HYDE: Well, you… it will be actually past the middle of the night before you're going to get a really good view. So if you go out, if it's tonight or actually even early, early, early tomorrow morning, around 3 a.m., that's when you start to see some very nice objects off towards the east. So it is, as I say, past midnight. So you either have to wake up very early or stay up very late. But around 3:30 a.m., you’ll start to see some very bright objects kind of lined up towards the east direction. And Saturn is actually almost halfway across the sky by then. And as you sort of go towards the sunrise, getting more closer and closer to that 4 a.m. mark, Saturn moves off towards the west, and more interesting objects start to come up in the east. So you get Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, a beautiful crescent moon, Venus and Mercury just start to come up at 4:30. So that's going to be a really, really challenging one to see. The other one that's very challenging is actually the planet Uranus, which is up there. But you will need a telescope to see that one.

TH: So, I assume you've had a look at this alignment. What went through your mind when you saw them?

EH: Oh, my gosh, I was just thinking this is a wonderful chance to really get an idea of sort of our own place in the solar system. Because when things are lined up like this, it's easy to kind of see directly how the solar system works. We are in a plane, you might have heard. So all the planets go around the sun, kind of, if you want to imagine on almost a flat racetrack. Not exactly flat. But if you've ever seen those little car racetracks that go around in a circle for little kids.

TH: Mm-hmm.

EH: It's kind of like that. They're all sort of going around sort of larger and larger circles. And our planet, our Earth, we are one of the little cars, right? [Chuckling]

TH: Um-hmm.

EH: And it all happens on gigantic, tremendous, astronomical skills. So it could be very hard to picture when you're sitting here, maybe just looking up on a given night. But when they all line up, you can actually get kind of an idea, you know, I am on this little racetrack [Both chuckle] and there's the other cars going by very, very slowly.

TH: So the last time this happened of just an alignment of any sort was more than 20 years ago. So it's… how rare is it, then, that we get to see this kind of a phenomenon?

EH: Well, you will get a chance almost every year to see some kind of alignment. And that's actually for a very good reason because all of our planets, as I say, they're all going… we're all going around the sun on our little racetracks, if you will. But we're not all going at the same speeds. And we go ahead and say, okay, well, it takes our planet Earth, you know, exactly one year to go around. In that time, the planet Mars won't have made a single orbit. It'll only be halfway around. So we'll actually come back up again on Mars before it gets to make one orbit of its own. And Jupiter will get to come back up on 11 times because it takes 11… 11.8 some years for Jupiter to actually go all the way around the sun.

TH: In your view, what do moments like this tell us about our place in the solar system?

EH: Oh yeah. I just think it's an amazing time to really get a scale of the solar system and these incredible, vast, inhuman, astronomical distances. Because when we're on Earth, we can see things. We can interact with our day-to-day objects, but we forget just how large our planet is compared to us. And just how small our planet is compared to most other things in the solar system, especially the distances involved. And so, if you… for me, it's really a chance to sort of, I don't know, bask in the awe of the scale that is out there in space. But also, we are on our own planet travelling around in this system. It's an amazing… it really is an amazing universe and an amazing solar system. So it's a great chance to look up and enjoy it.

TH: If you are lucky enough to have a decent telescope and you want to look up in the night sky, what else might you see beyond this alignment that's of interest?

EH: I always advocate everyone to take a chance and look uppity, as they say. [Chuckling] Well, this… this particular time of year is great for a lot of stuff. If you are up anyways for this alignment, you will also get a beautiful crescent moon, which is waning. It's going closer and closer to it's a new phase where we won't be able to see it, and you can actually see it moving closer to the sun where, of course, we won't see it because the sunlight is hitting its backside, which is really great. So I very much advocate looking at the moon. Even through a small telescope, the craters are amazing. And when it is in crescent phase, you can really make out some beautiful features along the Terminator line. The Pleiades are also up. The planet Venus is quite close to the Pleiades. If you have a small scope and you can get pointed down into the east around that same time, it should be pretty excellent. And, of course, it's, you know, just a good time of year to go outside anyways because it's actually warm in Toronto at night right now. [Both chuckle] So this is an unusual chance. In the winter, you get longer nights. But in the summer, I would say the nights are a little more enjoyable for actually going outside.

TH: Good to talk to you about this. Thanks so much.

EH: Thank you very much.

CH: Elaina Hyde is the director of the Allan I. Carswell Observatory at York University. We reached her at the observatory in Toronto.

[Ambient instrumental]

Newfoundland Deputy Premier… And Labrador

CH: Those of you who live in Newfoundland and Labrador will know Siobhan Coady as your deputy premier and finance minister. But this week, Ms. Coady assumed a different role: as an advisor and staunch supporter of her dog Beau, a Labrador retriever. Ms. Coady and Beau made the trip to the Super Bowl of the dog world: the Westminster Kennel Club Dog Show -- where Beau won Best of Breed.

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SIOBHAN COADY: It was a moment of intense pride. We've been… my husband and I have had Labradors for quite some time. We've shown them mostly because we want to make sure as a heritage animal to Newfoundland and Labrador that we have a really… you know, really good breed here in the province, and we take great pride in that. And he was chosen to be the… to be the Best in Breed. So it was kind of outstanding and exciting. And I've come home now, and I'm with his… his grandmother and his daughter. And I can tell you, they're… they're both proud of him, but they… only because they got treats.

MARRY-CATHERINE MCINTOSH: When did you know that he was a star? What makes him so special?

SC: What makes Beau very special, and we show a lot of our dogs. So all of our dogs are shown here in Canada and, you know, go on to get their championships. Some go on to get their grand championship. And we… we… we do breed probably around once a year. And when Beau was born, he… he went into shows as soon as he could, which is six months, and he won Best Puppy in show, and he was doing very, very well. But what really makes him special is his movement. He… he glides when he… he has a lot of power. He's got a beautiful head. Beautiful chest. His… you know, great top line. His tail comes right off his back, which is what… you know, all attributes of Labradors. And, of course, he's a very strong swimmer and retriever. And those are some of the other things. But the big thing about Labrador dogs is they're very kind. They're very gentle. They're like a lot of belly rubs and attention. And that is… that describes Beau to a tee.

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CH: That was Newfoundland and Labrador Deputy Premier, Siobhan Coady -- who is also the co-breeder and owner of Beau the Labrador. She spoke with the CBC's Mary-Catherine McIntosh today.

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Alex Holder

Guest: Alex Holder

CH: To this day, former U.S. President Trump continues to insist -- without any evidence -- that he won the last U.S. election. And he continues to insist that the ongoing hearings into the attack on the Capitol on January 6th, 2021, are "a rigged deal" and a "one-sided witch hunt". Which makes sense -- because he was there that day, egging on protesters to take action on his behalf. And ever since, people have wondered what was going through his mind as the riot unfolded. Well, one documentary filmmaker got an intimate picture of the Trump family during and after the 2020 U.S. election. And Alex Holder started filming with the idea that Mr. Trump couldn't possibly be buying his own claims. We reached Alex Holder in Washington D.C.

TH: Alex, you had extensive conversations with President Trump and his family around the 2020 election. What do you think Trump believes about whether he won or lost the election?

ALEX HOLDER: On this particular issue, the idea of sort of a rational conversation doesn't seem to work, right? And obviously, all his administration officials and attorney general and others, including the judicial system, have all confirmed that he did not have any claim for election irregularity. And yet, sort of, he still absolutely believes… believed then and still believes today that he… that he did win. So this is not sort of a rational sort of position. And I don't think that the idea that he's sort of playing a game, which is what I genuinely did believe to be the case before I had the chance to hit him, you know, is the reality. He lives in a world where what he believes is… to be true is true. The fact that he believes that the election was stolen, I think, is a terrifying position to have.

TH: Why do you think it's terrifying?

AH: I mean, the foundations of democracy rely on… on elections being accepted by, you know, both the person that won and by the person that lost. And if the person that lost refuses to accept the end result, then that will… you know, that breaks the very foundations of what democracy is. He was giving so many different examples, irrational examples, examples of Georgia, you know, sort of malfeasance. And, you know, examples of how the officials in Georgia, all they have to do is open up the ballots and look at sort of the signatures, and then they'll see it was a total win, he'll say. And that if they don't want to do it, it's because they're cowards. And therefore, the way to do it is to get the Georgia legislature to intervene. And they will come to the same conclusion as him because they're on his side. I mean, you know, he says things like we need to find brave judges. Like, he'll do anything he can. And this is from my interaction with him. He'll do anything he can to be able to get the position that he believed to be the correct one, which is that he won the election. You know, he said to me, there was… there's no way that guy, and he's referring to President Biden, actually got 80 million votes. So there's lots of different sort of things that he was saying. And he was super fervent in his position.

TH: You also spoke with his children, Ivanka, Don Jr. and Eric. How supportive were they of these claims of election fraud?

AH: So with respect to Eric, absolutely echoed his father's position to a tee, which wasn't surprising because my interactions with his children were very much that they sort of supported their father all the way through, that they admired him very much. Eric referred to his father as his best friend. And then, with respect to Ivanka, I interviewed her a few days after I interviewed the president, also in the White House. And… and she sort of also echoed, perhaps less fervently than her father and Eric, but certainly echoed a position that was very close to her father's, which was that he should, you know, continue to fight and explore every remedy to get the result where her father wanted to get.

TH: You talked to President Trump twice after the January 6th assault. What sense of responsibility for what happened did he feel?

AH: I mean, I think that he feels that it was sort of the inevitable response to, you know, an election that he believes was stolen. And so, which obviously is remarkable and quite sort of very disturbing.

TH: What about the connection between what he was saying about a stolen election and their behaviour? What was his recognition of that connection?

AH: You know, you can see him saying that the people, you know, that went to the Capitol, he refers to smart people. But he also says that he thinks they were there because they think the election was stolen. Well, the only reason they think the election was stolen was because he'd been saying it for the last two months.

TH: And why do you think he won't or can't draw a connection between those two ideas?

AH: You know, he does draw the connection. And… and he… and the fact that he doesn't conclude that this was a tragic event is because I think he believes it to be… I mean, not when I say think, as, in at least the way that he says what he said to me is that that moment was the inevitable conclusion, i.e., they had to do that in his mind because the election was stolen.

TH: You testified yesterday to the committee behind closed doors. First of all, how did they even find you?

AH: Oh, I don't know. There's probably a thousand different ways they found out. I mean, they've been researching and looking for people who had potential material of the events on the day for months. We had a big team of people that were working with us, and I always felt that it was inevitable that… that… that we would provide materials.

TH: How did the conversation go with the committee?

AH: Very professional. Very straightforward. They were very, very proper. And it was… you know, it was a two-hour meeting. Two hours and one minute, in fact. I complied with everything they asked me to do.

TH: What were they most interested in, Alex, from what you could tell?

AH: This was the only thing where I feel like it's worth waiting until they're able to conclude their investigation before we… before I sort of say anything directly to this.

TH: When your footage was subpoenaed by the committee, what did you think they were hoping to find or looking for?

AH: Oh, I don't know. I mean, like I said, I… my job purely is to, you know, document history and to sort of make, I believe, historic sort of projects and things that are of interest to people. And in terms of what people might be able to find to sort of support a political position or something or investigation is totally up to them and… and they'll come to their own conclusions.

TH: What do you think they're going to learn from watching it? Considering the access you had and it was happening in kind of real-time with… with events as they unfolded?

AH: I don't know. I honestly… as in that they'll… they'll… you know, they could find something that I personally don't know I would never have thought was relevant or they did. So I really, honestly don't know.

TH: The world didn't know who you were, Alex, on Monday. [AH laughs] And now, here you are on Friday, and it's very different. I wonder just what effect all this has had on your life?

AH: Well, put it this way. As you said, on Monday, no one… nobody knew I was. And on Friday, I have an armed security guard standing about 20 feet away from me right now whilst I'm talking to you, so.

TH: Why do you have an armed security guard?

AH: Oh, there's been lots of reactions to what's happened in the last few days that some people don't like me very much. And, I mean, people have made out that I might be an FBI undercover agent or some sort of spy or something. So, yeah, we're just sort of taking precautions. And there's also been other threats as well.

TH: Alex, how do you react to all of that?

AH: Yeah, it's obviously a pretty scary sort of situation to be in, especially when you've got, you know, the Trump family or Trump organization campaign officials coming out and saying all sorts of different things are inconsistent and contradictions and sort of untruths about me and what I've done. But, you know, it is what it is. It's been a whirlwind for sure.

TH: Alex, good to talk to you. Thanks so much.

AH: It's absolutely a pleasure.

CH: Alex Holder is the documentary filmmaker behind "Unprecedented" -- a documentary series that follows the Trumps during and after the 2020 election. We reached him in Washington, D.C.

[Electronica]

Kamloops Bear In House

CH: Yesterday morning, Rebecca Proutt and her husband were awakened by a bunch of clanging and smashing coming from their kitchen. Which was irritating as they emerged blearily from sleep. And then concerning -- since it wasn't clear who could was doing it. And then scary when it turned out to be a bear. Here is Rebecca Proutt talking to Shelley Joyce, host of Daybreak Kamloops.

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REBECCA PROUTT: It was an interesting way to wake up. There was no coffee needed after that.

SHELLY JOYCE: {laughing] I bet. Can you tell us what happened?

RP: My husband had just got home from a night shift, so we were both awake. And I could hear bottles moving around. And I thought, oh, he's going… like, going through our bottle bin in the driveway. Then I realized, no, that noise is coming from the house… inside the house. And so, my husband and I got the dog and let the dog upstairs. I didn't actually go up and see what was happening, but she got the bear outside the way he came in. And then we went upstairs, and he had ripped the screen off of the window, pried the window open and come through the window into my kitchen to grab a bag of garbage that was waiting to go into the bins in the garage. And then, so he was on the patio. And so I let the dog out, and he tried to attack my dog, and she got him off the property. And then, when I was trying to clean up the carnage, [Chuckling] he came back like two or three times. So by this point, I had put my dog in the house, so I just grabbed a metal pole; my patio railings are metal. And I had to smack the metal pole on metal patio railings and make big, loud noises to make them go away.

SJ: Wow. What… I'm just curious, what kind of dog do you have? Like, I wouldn't even --

RP: She's a blue heeler cross.

SJ: Okay.

RP: So, that's her job. That's part of her job. She keeps the bears out of the fenced area of our yard.

SJ: Wow. So has this happened before? Something like this?

RP: Well, we're not unfamiliar with having bears in the yard. We really… we have a lot of wildlife. We really like having wildlife in our yard. But our dog, just because we have a young child, so our dog keeps the bears out of the fenced area. But we… we have lots of bears. We really enjoy coexisting with them most of the time. But, yeah, this guy was just… had no fear. And, I mean, like, there's not really any damage to the inside of the house, luckily. Like, just the window has a bit of damage, and the screen is gone and… but yeah. [Chuckling]

SJ: Wow!

RP: This… this little guy is something else.

SJ: What are you going to do about this bear? It sounds like it's a problem bear?

RP: Yeah, we…. I phoned conservation. They have classified him as a level one bear, which, as far as I understand, is the most dangerous classification. And there's now a trap in my driveway.

SJ: And will they relocate the bear, do you think, or will they put it down?

RP: I would think they will destroy the bear, unfortunately, because he is so habituated.

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CH: That was Kamloops, B.C. resident Rebecca Proutt in conversation with Shelley Joyce on Daybreak Kamloops.

[Industrial]

Part 3: Horror Lovers, Giant Bacteria

FTR: Prince Charles Abolishing The Monarchy

CH: The train has already left the station, but Prince Charles is making sure you know that he's on board. Today, the Prince of Wales said he supported a nation's right to choose. That is, whether or not to keep the Queen as their head of state. Speaking at a summit of Commonwealth leaders gathered in Rwanda, the heir to the British throne said he believed that such changes could be made calmly. His remarks come months after Barbados did just that -- replacing the Queen as head of state with an elected president. And other Caribbean nations suggest they may follow suit. Here's part of what Prince Charles had to say, For The Record:

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PRINCE CHARLES: Throughout her reign, the Queen has placed and continues to place the greatest importance on the common friendship, humanity and values that all of us share in this room. Not despite that because of the diversity of the Commonwealth represents. I treasure the friendships we have built over these past 70 years. And look forward to their deepening in the years ahead. The Commonwealth contains within it countries that have had constitutional relationships with my family, some that continue to do so. And increasingly, those that have had none. I want to say clearly, as I have said before, that each member's constitutional arrangement as a republic or monarchy is purely a matter for each member country to decide. The benefit of a long life brings me the experience that arrangements such as these can change calmly and without rancour. But as I said in Barbados last November, we should never forget the things which do not change. The close and trusted partnership between Commonwealth members, our common values and shared goals and perhaps most importantly, the strong and enduring connections between the peoples of the Commonwealth, which strengthen us all.

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CH: That's Charles, the Prince of Wales, speaking today at a summit of Commonwealth leaders in Rwanda.

[World drums]

Horror Lovers

Guest: Coltan Scrivner

CH: Traditionally, there are two types of kid at every sleepover: the ones who clamour to watch a horror movie; and the ones who tremulously suggest literally anything else. The next morning, the horror lovers walk away unscathed. And the other kids -- who have not slept -- stagger home, constantly looking behind them to make sure they're not being followed by a vicious clown with a knife. The question: what is the key difference between those two groups? And do people who love horror really think or feel differently? And that is a question that research scientist and horror fan Coltan Scrivner wanted to answer. Mr. Scrivner works with the "Recreational Fear Lab" at Aarhus University, Denmark. But we reached him in Chicago, Illinois.

TH: Coltan, you've done some research on whether horror movie fans are as compassionate and empathetic as the rest of us. We're going to get to what you find out in your research in a moment. But first, I just want to know why you wanted to ask the question in the first place?

COLTAN SCRIVNER: Well, I think, you know, since at least the 1980s, there's been this sort of public perception of horror fans as maybe a bit less empathetic or compassionate than people who don't like horror. You know, if you can enjoy a film where there's a lot of suffering and violence and gore, I think it's a reasonable question to ask. You know, does that affect you psychologically? And are people who are less likely to feel warm towards others more likely to enjoy that kind of genre? And so, I thought it was a really interesting question to ask because some of the research I had done previously suggested that, you know, this might not be the case, but there hadn't been any studies in the past decade or so that have really directly asked that question.

TH: Where do you think that impression about horror fans being less empathetic actually comes from? Is it pop culture or something else?

CS: I mean, I think some of it is pop culture. I think some of it like I said, is intuition. You know, if you're able to enjoy something that presumably is very violent, it does raise the question of, you know, can you enjoy that because you are less compassionate? And at least the research that I've been conducting suggests that that's, you know, that's not the reason that you enjoy it. There are other reasons that people enjoy horror films.

TH: Well, let's talk about some of that research. You conducted a series of studies, particularly, I guess, into this empathy question. And what did you find out?

CS: Well, so the first study that I did is I wanted to make sure that, you know, I had read movie critic reviews and other kinds of things, suggesting that horror fans are less compassionate or less sympathetic. But I didn't have any empirical evidence that people actually believed this. And so, the first study around actually tested this assumption. And so I gave some people, you know, randomly generated profiles of individuals. And what I found was that anytime horror was listed as a favourite movie genre on those profiles, people consistently rated those profiles or the people behind those profiles and being less empathetic, less compassionate and less kind.

TH: Hmm.

CS: And then, of course, I followed that up with an actual study where I used psychometric testing to measure people's empathy and levels of compassion. And what I found was that people who rated themselves as horror fans, whether it was psychological horror or paranormal or even slashers, were just as kind and just as empathetic and compassionate as people who weren't fans of those kinds of movies.

TH: And that's far from the only research you've done on horror, correct? You've done other work looking at different kinds of horror fans. What did you find out then?

CS: I think a lot of people had assumptions again about, you know, who likes horror. Well, one assumption is that some people or a lot of people maybe like it because it provides thrills, right? And it turns out that that's really just a subgroup of horror fans. There is a subgroup of horror fans that my colleagues and I have called the adrenaline junkies, right? These are the people who would enjoy things like skydiving or bungee jumping. But again, that's a very small subgroup of the total fan base of horror. Instead, there are two other groups of… of horror fans that I think are probably a bit more common. One of those is the white knucklers. And the white knucklers are generally very afraid of horror, right? They might have nightmares about it. They may have to cover their eyes at some point, but they keep coming back to it. And one thing we found in some of the research that I've done in haunted houses, for example, is that white knucklers enjoy horror because they feel like they are pushing their limits and sort of challenging their fears. And then that third kind of horror fan is what we've called the dark coper, and the dark copers report to us that they tend to use horror as a way to deal with negative emotions. And I think the horror genre is really good for things like that because it's really the only genre that deals with these really negative emotions like fear and anxiety and dread that other genres sort of skip over.

TH: It sounds as if you're referring to it almost as a kind of a therapy?

CS: Yeah. I mean, so some of the research that I've done suggests that a lot of horror fans are actually pretty high in anxiety, right? They score very high in self-report measures and also tend to be, you know, clinically diagnosed with anxiety disorders. And when I go and talk to them, a lot of them will tell me that they use horror as a way to sort of disengage from cycles of rumination, you know? So if you're kind of ruminating about something bad that you think will happen or something bad that happened in the past. If you turn on something that's sort of scary, it really does a good job of drawing your attention out of that rumination cycle and sort of giving you an off-ramp.

TH: Hmm. It makes me wonder if… if you're afraid, for example, to go on roller coasters, are you probably afraid to watch horror movies? Is that possible, too?

CS: Yeah, I think there's a couple of differences there, but I think you're right. I think, you know, certainly, you wouldn't be an adrenaline junkie if you were… you know, if you're afraid to go on a roller coaster, you wouldn't enjoy it or for its thrills, but you might enjoy it for other kinds of reasons. So if you were afraid to go on a roller coaster, you might still be able to enjoy horror because you had a bit more control over the experience. You know, you can't control how fast the roller coaster goes. In a horror movie, you can control some different aspects that scare you.

TH: What kind of horror movies do you like?

CS: I'm a pretty broad spectrum fan. I really do… I enjoy a good… like, a good zombie flick. But I'm really a pretty, pretty broad horror fan, I think.

TH: [Chuckling] You have wide tastes. I appreciate that.

CS: I have wide tastes. That’s right. [Chuckling]

TH: And I'll be honest, I have none because I won't go near any of that stuff. So there you go. Despite all the work you've done on this, and you know, you're trying to help explain why horror fans love it and explain to the rest of the world, the haters, and I don't hate it, but I'm just saying it's not my thing, might have a hard time still understanding the folks who really love horror movies. How do you convince the haters to appreciate the lovers?

CS: Really, the best way to convince someone is to sort of show them, right? I mean, horror has tons of different film festivals and conventions. And I think if you go to one of those, even if you dislike horror, you'll find that the people in that community are really loving and kind and caring and are probably not what you might expect.

TH: Good to talk to you. Thanks for this.

CS: Yeah, thank you so much.

CH: That was research scientist Coltan Scrivner. We reached him in Chicago, Illinois.

[Electronica]

B.C. Museum Reno

CH: John Horgan says he was in the wrong. The B.C. Premier is walking back plans to spend 789 million dollars to rebuild the Royal BC Museum. The museum upgrade was announced in May and included plans to demolish and rebuild the museum in Victoria over the course of nearly a decade. But many British Columbians were shocked by that price tag, especially while the province is dealing with issues like a doctor shortage and the high cost of living. Premier Horgan explained why he is admitting that now is not the right time for the rebuild.

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JOHN HORGAN: Well, as a born and raised Victorian, who's been to the museum countless times, I'm very proud of the institution, as are all British Columbians. And it became clear to me just days after the announcement that although we have been working on the restoration of the building and making sure we were protecting our… our historic collections, it was clear to me that the public had not been on that journey with us. We spent five years of detailed discussions and preparations for a plan that the public found to be quite a surprise, and that was apparent within a number of days. And whenever, Gregor, something that's so important to all of us becomes a laughline or a punchline or a political football, it strikes me that it's time to pause that and let's have a real conversation. Let's get back to a place where we can all be proud of the direction we're going. And it was a pretty simple decision, quite frankly. I… I just… I couldn't allow something that's so important to all of us to be made a joke of or something that made people uncomfortable when they talked about it. I want people to be proud and celebrate our history, not to be contemptuous of it.

GREGOR CRAIGIE: So what's now then? I mean, what's your best guess about when or how long it will come… take to come up with a new plan? I mean, the Liberals say you're just going to return in a few months and announce essentially the same thing. Or is this really going to be a long pause and it going back to basics and going back to the drawing board?

JH: Well, that's in the hands of the… the board of the museum and the executive. But we have a new CEO who's very engaged in talking about the seven million items that the museum houses. The largest Emily Carr collection in the world is currently below sea level. We need to fix that. We're building out in Colwood a collections and research building which will take a lot of the pressure off. It'll be completed in 2025. So rather than a two-month consultation, I would suggest this consultation and discussion will go on for some time.

GC: We're short for… very short for time, Premier, but I was glad to hear you're cancer-free. And that's excellent news. There's also speculation always about a political leader's future. Are you planning to continue as premier throughout the rest of… of this elected term for the next two or three years?

JH: Well, Gregor, I'm currently in Vernon with my caucus. We're engaging with people here in Vernon-Monashee. I have a cabinet… a cabinet retreat next week in Vancouver. We're plotting and planning and preparing for the next two years. And so I'll have more to say about that as we come out of those meetings.

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CH: That was B.C. Premier John Horgan speaking with Gregor Craigie, host of On the Island in Victoria.

[Electronica]

Giant Bacteria

Guest: Jean-Marie Volland

CH: Tiny, microscopic, invisible, gross. Those are probably some of the words you'd associate with bacteria. Words like giant, mammoth, or humongous probably don't spring to mind. Unless you're Jean-Marie Volland. In a study he co-led, which was published this week in the journal Science, he and his colleagues have described Thiomargarita magnifica, which is humongous -- at least, in terms of bacteria. We reached Jean-Marie Volland in Berkeley, California.

TH: Mr. Volland, this discovery seems to have created a lot of questions, seemingly endless questions. How much time do you spend thinking about what you found?

JEAN-MARIE VOLLAND: [Chuckling] That's a good question. I spend a lot of time, especially now that we have to, you know, decide on what are going to be the followup projects? So most of my time, I would say.

TH: [Chuckling] How big is this bacterium?

JMV: It is a single bacterial cell that is on average one centimetre in length. Up to two centimetres for some of the largest ones. And that is about the size and the shape or so of a human eyelash. So, to give you a good idea, that is about 5,000 times bigger than most bacteria.

TH: That's what I was wondering because it still sounds kind of tiny, but it's a giant compared to other bacteria?

JMV: It is. Absolutely, yeah, for a bacterium to be that big, it is… it is extreme. And it will give you, you know, some kind of comparison. Being 5,000 times bigger than your, you know, relatives is… for a human would be the equivalent of being the size of a mountain, of Mount Everest, for instance. So it is… it is extremely big.

TH: So, in comparison, how would this rate in terms of sizes of bacteria you've ever discovered?

JMV: There is one of the family of giant bacteria that we are already known. They have been discovered almost 20 years ago, I think. The previously largest bacteria was also a Thiomargarita. There was a different species. It was discovered in the deep-sea sediment of the Namibian coast by a German scientist, and it was about 50 times smaller. So the one we have discovered now is about 50 times bigger. But that's not exactly, you know, what is the most exciting thing that we have an even slightly bigger or even much bigger, you know, it's that this bacterium is also more complex than what we had previously… previously recognized.

TH: Where was this particular bacteria discovered?

JMV: It was discovered by a professor at the University of Guadeloupe University in… in the Caribbean. And he was, you know, exploring the mangrove ecosystems. So they come from seawater environments in mangrove coastal and shallow waters. And he discovered them, yeah, about 10 years ago in this kind of environment.

TH: And why would it take ten years to get to this point if he found it so long ago?

JMV: Yeah, that… that is a good question. And there are many reasons. One of the reason is that, first, he… he had no idea that those were bacteria samples because they were so big and because of their morphology, and they did not resemble bacteria. So for a while, it was just, you know, some kind of curious spaghetti-like, white-looking filaments that he… he would bring back to the lab and have a look at the microscope sometimes. So it was not immediately, you know, becoming a full-blast research project. The second reason is that those are coming and going, you know, in… in the mangrove environment. They are not always present. So we sometimes can collect them and then they are gone for months, sometimes even a year. So… and we don't have a laboratory culture, so we don't have them in the lab to study them and make new experiments when we need to. We have to wait until they appear and collect them in the Caribbean, and that takes some time.

TH: How does this change the way scientists can think about bacteria now?

JMV: To be completely honest, that will push a little bit the boundary, you know, of… of how big a bacterium can grow. So that is definitely changing a little bit the concept of… of bacteria. But there were already some gigantic bacteria that were already recognized before. And now, they can… we know that they can grow even bigger than that, like 50 times bigger. What is also going to change maybe a little bit is that although we knew that bacteria had some complexity before them because not to go too much into detail, but bacteria, they have structures that can perform certain functions. They are called Organelles, and… and they were previously recognized. There were maybe 19 different structures like that. We have maybe discovered that there's a new type of Organelle that has the function of keeping and protecting the genetic material, the DNA, so the blueprints of the cell and that is… that is a bit new, and that is hopefully going to change a little bit how we think about bacteria now.

TH: What kind of experiments would you like to do with this bacteria?

JMV The very first thing that we are actively trying to do now is to keep it alive in the lab. Because for the reason I said before, we… we need to have material available, you know, all the time to make experiments. So that will be the first step. The next thing is, once we can grow it in the lab, we can, you know, study it better. We can get a better idea of what it is and how it works and… and how it evolved to be so big. And… and our, you know, ultimate goal as scientists doing basic science, we just want to increase, you know, the knowledge around life and the boundaries of life. So, we are trying to just understand it better. That's the first thing. And hopefully, we can use it in the future as a tool to ask big questions that are yet unanswered in biology.

TH: Well, you found something that looks like a small piece of spaghetti. What are the chances we'll find bacteria that looks like, you know, rigatoni, fettuccine and something bigger, in other words? [Both chuckling]

JMV: Yeah, yeah, that's a good question. We… you know, we don't know. There is a chance that we find other gene microbes for sure. We… we can now maybe look for them with a slightly different approach because the way we normally sample bacteria in the environment is we take a sample and we, you know, we filter it, and we keep only things that passes through a filter. And then 20 years ago, we've realized that there are giant viruses that are out there, they are everywhere in the environment and… and now, we separate them differently and we realize they are everywhere. So who knows if we are going to find many more of these giants. Let's see. We will see.

TH: Jean-Marie, good to talk to you. Thank you so much.

JMV: Thank you very much for having me.

CH: Jean-Marie Volland is a scientist at the Laboratory for Research in Complex Systems and the U.S. Department of Energy Joint Genome Institute in Berkeley, California. That's where we reached him.

[Acoustic guitar]

WPG Flower Smelling

CH: If you're in Winnipeg, and you're not allergic, then you're cordially invited to Michelle Finley's house to smell the peonies. And if you're on the fence, keep this in mind: these aren't just some run-of-the-mill whippersnappers. The 17 "Sarah Bernhardt" peonies are around 70 years old. And now that they're in bloom once again, Ms. Finley went on the Winnipeg Gardeners Facebook page, and posted an open invitation to drop by and take a look, and a deep whiff.

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MICHELLE FINLEY: I bought this house about 26 years ago. I was 19 and not a gardener at all, but had grown up around flowers in my grandparents yard. And these peonies just popped up the first spring that I was here and I was in total awe. They're so beautiful and they're so fragrant. And I really couldn't believe that I was now the owner of these… of the scent of peonies. At the time, there was an older lady living across the street and her family had owned that house her whole entire life. And she told me that they were planted in around the 40s and 50. She had remembered them being planted. So if you fast forward to now, those flowers are 70 years old and they keep coming back. And I'd say this year they look better than ever. It's a great talking point. So I have neighbours that watch for them as well. There's actually a new couple that lives across the street, and they watched them spring out of the ground. And they were watching how fast and how quickly, like, they rise out of the ground and get to the bush hight of them. And so they came over. It was a great way to meet my new neighbours. I have longtime neighbours on various sides that come over and we talk about it. I usually give them some flowers and… yeah, it's just a great talking point. And it looks like I've made lots of new friends off of the Winnipeg Gardeners group.

MARCY MARKUSA: [Laughing] Yes.

MF: I guess. I've never been so popular. I have like 500 likes on my original post. And then, I just posted an update yesterday because they all opened yesterday. I went to work and they were not open. And then when I came home, they were all open. Yeah, I posted an update. So I've already had about seven or eight different women messaged me asking if they could come by and take photos and see them. And I'm like, yeah, absolutely. If I'm in the yard, say hi. I’d love to meet you.

MM: And there's… there are some parameters. You want to share the joy, which is why you posted. But please don't pick, right?

MF: Yeah. I'd prefer if people didn't pick them just because when I pick them, I usually use really sharp scissors. And I also disinfect those scissors which I learnt from Martha Stewart.

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CH: That was proud peony gardener Michelle Finley in conversation with Marcy Markusa, host of CBC Winnipeg's Information Radio.

[Hip-hop beat]

No Plastic Cukes

CH: The future is here -- and it's glorious: cucumbers without plastic wrap. This week, a Leamington, Ontario grower became the first in the country to ship English cucumbers that are not individually wrapped in plastic to produce sections across Canada. Instead, they are treated with an edible plant-based spray to keep them fresh. Dino DiLaudo is the vice-president of sales and marketing at Westmoreland Topline Farms. He explained how it works, from inside the plant.

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DINO DILAUDO: So traditionally, a cucumber has always needed a plastic coating to protect itself from the external environment. But now, we're going to go forward with plastic-free cucumbers. Really, something on our sustainability initiative.

CHRIS ENSING: When you talk about why the plastic was needed in the first place, what do you… what do you sacrifice by losing the plastic?

DD: So the plastic is there to hold the respiration of the cucumber in. Basically, to lock in its freshness and keep it from oxidizing and spoiling prematurely. So what we're doing is we're removing the plastic and we're protecting the cucumbers with a natural plant-based product, protecting it with plants.

CE: The idea of having an individually-wrapped cucumber in plastic, did you hear from people that that was a little frustrating? They’re going to grocery stores and seeing that they can't use plastic bags?

DD: Yes. I mean, that's probably one of the largest concerns we have in the industry where people have expressed the overuse of plastic. And seedless cucumbers has definitely been one of those items because we offered… at times we offer a three pack cucumber with three wrapped cucumbers, wrapped again in plastic. So, with that now we're going to be able to move to a completely plastic-free offering for the same pack of three cucumbers. And it's going to be, I think, exciting for the future of cucumbers. I think this will be the future of the way cucumbers are sold without plastic.

CE: And finally here, when someone goes to bite into this cucumber or has a salad that has a part of this inside of it, what do ywant them to think?

DD: You know what? They're going to be feeling like they're eating a cucumber just like normal, and they can feel good about themselves that they haven't added single-use plastic to the system. They're basically eating a cucumber the same as they always would be, but without the plastic.

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CH: That was Dino DiLaudo, vice-president of sales and marketing at Westmoreland Topline Farms, speaking with CBC Windsor reporter Chris Ensing about plastic-free cucumbers.

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June 24, 2022 Episode Transcript

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