Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2022

The AIH Transcript for June 20th, 2022

TOM HARRINGTON: Hi there, I'm Tom Harrington.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight

TH: Pole reposition. Canada's defence minister says now is the time to spend billions improving the NORAD continental defence system in the Arctic -- because new threats, including the one posed by Russia, need to be on our radar.

CH: The centre did not hold. Parties on the right and left made major gains in the French election -- robbing Emmanual Macron of his absolute majority in parliament, and revealing an increasingly divided country.

TH: Tech-tonic shift. For the first time in the United States, workers at an Apple Store have voted to unionize. One employee tells us what it was like to discover her efforts had borne fruit.

CH: Cows for concern. During a brutal stretch of high temperatures in Kansas, thousands of cattle died of heat stress -- but immediately, a host of conspiracy theories suggested more nefarious reasons for the mass deaths.

TH: Like a huge weight has been lifted. Canadian powerlifter Jessica Buettner picks up a world record -- by picking up half a ton at the World Championships.

CH: And… the pincers diaries. An artist tells us about the challenge of restoring Shediac New Brunswick's absolutely enormous lobster statue -- and proves that he's a real claws act.

CH: As It Happens, the Monday edition. Radio that finds this story moving -- even if the lobster itself is crust-stationary.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Anand: NORAD, Apple Union, Shediac Lobster

ANAND: NORAD

Guest: Anita Anand

CH: Canada's defence systems in the Arctic -- which it shares with the United States -- are decades-old. And now, they'll be getting an upgrade. Today, Ottawa announced that it will invest almost five billion dollars over the next six years to modernize the NORAD continental defence system. And the federal government has promised that there will be billions more invested over the next two decades. The money will go towards building new radar systems meant to detect hypersonic and cruise missiles, as well as command-and-control systems and air-to-air missiles. The investment comes at a time when Canada is being pushed by its allies -- especially the U.S. -- to meet its NATO commitment to spend two per cent of its GDP on defence. Anita Anand is Canada's minister of defence. We reached her in Trenton, Ontario.

TH: Minister Anand, you've pledged billions of dollars today for this upgrade to NORAD. What exactly is the threat?

ANITA ANAND: Well, that's a great question. As autocracies like Russia threaten the rules-based international order that has protected us for decades, as our climate changes, and as our competitors develop new technologies like hypersonic weapons and advanced cruise missiles, there is a pressing need to modernize Canada's NORAD's capabilities. We certainly have been paying very close attention to recent world events. But at the same time, we recognize that NORAD has the continental defence system in place that has kept our continent and indeed Canadians safe for decades.

TH: The radar system, as it is now, hasn't been upgraded in decades. And even your own military leaders say it's… it's no longer adequate. Why is this happening now as opposed to five, 10 years ago?

AA: The government of the day in 2017, our government, released a defence policy. And we knew in 2017 at that time that we had to be strong at home and secure in this continent in order to be engaged in the world. Modernizing NORAD was identified as a key element of this plan, but more work was required in order to ensure that we made the best investments for Canadians. So the announcement today is really the unwritten chapter of our defence policy of 2017. It is based on an understanding of the current threat environment. It is based on an understanding that we need to engage with Indigenous and northern communities in modernizing NAROD. It is based on an understanding that the threat environment has changed, and we need to ensure the Canadian Armed Forces are equipped to respond in the correct manner.

TH: How long is it going to take to get this new system makeover in place?

AA: I announced today that Canada is investing $4.9 billion over the next six years to modernize our continental defences and to protect Canadians, as well as $40 billion over the next 20 years to deliver new capabilities. So the bottom line is we are beginning work right away to ensure that the capabilities that we announced are in place. This will lead to billions of dollars pumped into the Canadian economy in the form of jobs, for example, in the form of contracts to ensure that these surveillance and other systems are put into place. But this is a long-term commitment, and it will add value to the Canadian economy in the process.

TH: There are well-documented cases, Minister, in defence about procurement, whether it's, you know, submarines, fighter jets, that sort of thing. How do you ensure that this project doesn't get bogged down with procuring the things that are needed?

AA: Well, we need to make sure that procurement processes are efficient and effective. But I want to say at the same time that this is a 20-year plan that will deliver new capabilities to keep Canadians safe for decades. Many capabilities that I have announced will come online in a much shorter period of time. For example, the air-to-air missiles that will be compatible with our future fighters. I'm going to work very closely with Minister Tassi at Public Services and Procurement to ensure the timely delivery of these procurements. And we will hire new procurement specialists to ensure that these new capabilities are delivered on time and on budget.

TH: You know, over the years, Washington has made it pretty clear they think Canada needs to spend more on defence. And we've been even called a freeloader, I believe, by some American politicians. How do you answer that charge?

AA: I have had many conversations with my counterpart, Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin, over the last few weeks internationally. And I visited Washington in April to discuss these issues with him directly. The reality is, as I've discussed with him, we are on an upward trajectory in our defence spending. Since 2017, we are increasing defence spending by 70 per cent. In Budget 2022, we announced an additional eight billion dollars in new defence spending. And today, we've announced a robust package funded over 20 years to modernize NORAD. We have the sixth-largest defence budget of all NATO's countries, and we will continue to be on a very steep upward trajectory in terms of our defence spending.

TH: Canada also, though, continues to be criticized by allies for not meeting NATO's benchmark for national defence spending by member nations. It's not a requirement, but it's the expectation. How can we consider ourselves full partners in NATO if we cannot meet the minimum defence spending they ask?

AA: I just returned from NATO, the defence ministers meeting there, in fact, and had numerous conversations about Canada's meaningful contributions to NATO, including leading the EFP battle group in Latvia. We are contributing to NATO's with boots on the ground. We are also increasing our defence spending, including via the announcement today. And we will continue to ensure that we are supporting our multilateral alliances like NATO, as well as the Continental Defence Initiative announced today, which will keep Canadians safe for decades.

TH: At the same time this outlay is being announced, you know, there are going to be Canadians who will say, you know what, I'm dealing with high prices for gas and for food and inflation and other issues in my day-to-day life. Why are we spending this kind of money on a system I can't even see? And no one's fired a rocket at us in 50 years or ever. So why are we spending so much money? There are people who are going to feel that way about this announcement as well. So what do you say to those who think we really can't afford to spend this kind of money on NORAD?

AA: So, there are two points. The first point is that our plan to modernize NORAD will support Canada's economic vitality and tens of thousands of Canadian jobs adding billions to our GDP per year. So Canadians are going to see tangible results from the investments in defence and security. And the second point is that on February 24th of this year, the world changed, and the threat environment changed as well. The military threat posed by aggressors, including Russia's invasion of Ukraine, the climate change threat, the economic threat, and the need to ensure our Arctic sovereignty all create a threat environment that requires us to respond with modernized command and control systems. Modernized detection systems. And that requires the investments in NORAD that I announced today.

TH: Minister Anand, thanks for talking to us today. I appreciate it.

AA: Thank you so much, Tom. Take good care.

CH: Anita Anand is Canada's minister of defence. She was in Trenton, Ontario. And you can find that interview on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Orchestral]

APPLE UNION

Guest: Chaya Barrett

CH: If you look around you right now, there's a good chance that there's at least one Apple product within reach. I see… [chuckle] I see two right here. The company's products have become ubiquitous. And earlier this year, Apple reported record-breaking revenue for the quarter. But some who work for the company say they haven't benefited from that growth. And this weekend, a majority of employees at a store in Towson, Maryland, voted to join a union. That's a first for Apple in the U.S. Chaya Barrett has been part of the push to unionize at this store. She's worked for Apple for seven years. We reached her in Towson, Maryland -- which is near Baltimore.

TH: Chaya, I understand you were in the room as these votes came in over the weekend. What were you feeling as you were waiting for those results?

CHAYA BARRETT: Oh, man. So, I think the biggest thing was a little bit of nervousness. Well, I would say a lot of nervousness, actually. And, you know, a lot of hope. We felt that we did really, really good work getting people rallied and kind of understanding, like, what the benefits of Unionizing were. So, we felt calm, but also, like, had that nervous anticipation because we didn't really know what was going to happen.

TH: And after you'd learned, you'd won the vote by quite a margin.

CB: Yeah.

TH: What was that scene like there?

CB: Oh, my gosh. Very emotional. I didn't think I would feel emotional, but we were all just, like, elated and kind of didn't know what to do with all of that energy. So we just kind of hugged it out and, you know, laughed a little bit and kind of felt, like, a sense of relief, knowing that, like, one of the harder parts was over. It was honestly a beautiful feeling to know that we'd worked so hard to get something done and we were able to make it happen.

TH: I wonder, given that you're probably a fairly tight group, that, you know, there were people who voted against this idea, how that's affected kind of the atmosphere there between workers that you work alongside?

CB: It's been… it's been really interesting. We've tried to keep things as civil as possible. And, you know, humans, we… we tend to, you know, kind of take sides when it comes to things. So there has been a little bit of a division between like yes's and no's, but we're trying to come back together as a united team, not to make any puns or anything like that, but we're trying to come back together and, you know, really repair those relationships. And I don't think any permanent damage was done. I just think, you know, feelings might have been hurt, or people may not have really understood why we were trying to do it. And I think, like trying to repair those relationships is going to be, you know, reaching out and… and understanding that… or helping people understand that nothing was personal. This was all about like the collective. We want to make sure that everybody is represented no matter what they voted.

TH: How big a deal is it, do you think, that your Apple store has unionized?

CB: I think it's a huge deal, not only for us as, like, Apple retail employees, but I think for a whole bunch of different industries. You know, Starbucks has been… a lot of Starbucks are unionizing, and there are other companies. Like, these huge companies that are… that seem kind of untouchable. You know, their workers are kind of rising up and saying that the way that we're being treated isn't right. And I think it's a really cool thing to see people taking a stand for themselves because, you know, this world, there's… there's enough to go around. But there's so much that is not afforded to people who are, like, working-class. So it's hard to put it into words, but I think it really means a lot to not only us as Apple retail employees, but to people around the entire country and hopefully the world. Letting them know that this is not only possible for us, but it's possible for everybody. And we want to be able to, like, spark that wave of positive change.

TH: Some of your colleagues have thanked the Atlanta Apple Store for helping you get to where you got.

CB: Yeah.

TH: What factor… what factor did that play?

CB: Absolutely. We thank them because, honestly, we wouldn't be where we are without their help. They were the first store to actually file for a petition to unionize. We were the second. And then Grand Central in New York was the third. And without knowing what was coming from, like… kind of like a union-busting perspective or like what the company was going to say without Atlanta's help, we wouldn't have known how to navigate that.

TH: What… what happened in Atlanta?

CB: There was like a… like, we have a morning meeting and every morning before the store opens. And at that morning meeting, there was just misinformation kind of being spread. And maybe it was purposeful, maybe it wasn't, but it seemed like it was meant to kind of, like, bust the effort a little bit. Atlanta recorded that, transcribed it, and then sent the recording and the transcription to us so that we could, like, go point-by-point as to why these things were misinformation and why they were wrong and why we're actually fighting for unionizing. So, without that, there's literally no way that we would have been able to fight what was coming because they gave us a heads up. So, we really owe the success to them.

TH: Apple says it pays more than many retailers. It provides lots of. Benefits. And it's actually been… they say they've been increasing starting wages. So what will having a union change or improve?

CB: Absolutely. I mean, we do get paid really well for having… for being in a retail job, I would say. But there's this thing that Apple says where we say good enough isn't. And good enough hasn't been enough for a long time. And when you think about the amount of money that it costs to live in any, like, metropolitan area, what we're getting paid is truly not enough. And it's not that we are complaining because we do get paid really well comparatively to other retail jobs. But we understand that there is more that the company can do and more that the company can afford. It's one of the richest companies in the world, and they can afford a little bit more. So, the union looks to change, of course, things like compensation, but things like health benefits, being able to have a say in some of the things that are dictated to us every day, like COVID policy or even mask policies, how customers are allowed to treat us in the stores. We've had a lot of issues with that where we've had people… you know, people get upset. This is expensive product. This is, you know, things that help people get through their everyday lives. So it's an emotional thing. And we… we tend to be on the… we get the brunt of people's anger when it comes to things that they may not be happy about. So just being able to have a seat at the table and say, hey, this is not working for our store and being here as the subject matter experts for basically everything that happens within the store, we should be, you know, kind of helping you all create policy that's going to work for us and for the customers because we're in these communities and we serve these communities every day.

TH: Good to talk to you about this. Thanks.

CB: You're very welcome.

CH: That was Apple employee Chaya Barrett, in Towson, Maryland, a suburb of Baltimore.

[Music: Industrial]

CANADIAN POWERLIFTER RECORD

CH: Jessica Buettner was a university track star looking to improve her performance when she discovered powerlifting. And then discovered that she liked that better than track. Today, the Saskatoon woman is a champion powerlifter, who's known as the Great Canadian Forklift. Earlier this month, Ms. Buettner competed at the International Powerlifting Federation world championships in South Africa. And not only did she win gold, she also broke a few records -- after deadlifting 575 pounds. Meaning that she lifted more than half a tonne on a barbell off the floor and up to her hips. To win, Jessica Buettner had to make up a 40-pound disadvantage during the deadlift category. And it all came down to her final, record-setting lift:

[sc]

JESSICA BUETTNER: I was losing. I was in second by 19 kilograms, so about 40 pounds going into deadlifts. And the very last one, I had about 12 kilos to make up. If I got that lift, I won the whole competition. If I missed it, I would get silver. So everything was on the line.

LEISHA GREBINSKI: And tell me about your mindset and all of that going into that?

JB: Oh, honestly, it's just a matter of getting so amped up and focussed at the same time. It's kind of a weird balance between that because you have to be technically on as far as how the lift goes. And I… all I was thinking about was that feeling of absolutely maxing out and just thinking about that there's no way I was going to drop that weight. I almost did. I could feel it slipping out of my hand. But as I ran up to the bar, I knew… I knew I had it. And that was probably the best feeling in the entire world.

LG: And you broke… you broke a record in doing that, right?

JB: Yeah, I broke the world record deadlift for my own weight class, but also for all the weight classes. That's the most that a drug-tested female has ever lifted in IPF powerlifting competitions.

LG: Wow. Can you believe that? [chuckling]

JB: I couldn't. Honestly, like It's been a life, I've been powerlifting for about eight years now, and that's been an absolute lifetime goal. Honestly, I'm… it was shocking to be able to actually do that. But yeah, no, 've been celebrating. I've been riding this high all week. [both chuckle] I've been so excited about it. It's been absolutely amazing.

[/sc]

CH: That's world-record-setting Canadian powerlifter Jessica Buettner speaking to Leisha Grebinski, host of Saskatoon Morning.

[Music: Uptempo]

SHEDIAC LOBSTER

Guest: Jared Betts

CH: It's the Michelangelo's David of Shediac, New Brunswick -- but less naked and with two more claws. And now, the town's Big Lobster statue is getting a makeover. The concrete statue is 11 metres long and weights 90 tonnes -- making it the largest lobster statue in the world. Which is fitting because Shediac bills itself as the lobster capital of the world. So the town takes a lot of pride in its enormous concrete crustacean. Jared Betts is the artist in charge of restoring the statue. And he's really taken the town's love of crustaceans to heart. We reached him in nearby Moncton.

TH: Jared, how did you end up signing on to restore Shediac’s Big Lobster statue?

JARED BETTS: Actually, the day that I was going to look at the lobster, I got an email from an organization saying that the current lobster painter maintenance person was stepping down and that they were looking to hire someone new. And I happened to be sitting right at it, and I was like, wow, this is a sign from the lobster heavens. [both laugh]

TH: Is there something about the lobster in particular as a creature that you find interesting?

JB: Well, I myself am an Aquarius and mermaid under the sea lover. And I just really love the creature itself. It's just so unique and different, the fact that its skeletal system is outside. So it's got like a unique exoskeletal system, and it just looks so cool. It's like the knight of the sea, really. [chuckling]

TH: Yeah. And, you know, this lobster is not exactly the kind you're used to looking at. This thing is huge. For people who have never been to Shediac, how big is it? What does it look like?

JB: Yeah. So it's the world's largest lobster statue. And it's ten metres long, three metres high, and it's just gigantic. It's just like there's something about things that are really, really huge with statues. They're larger than life. There's over 300,000 tourists that come to take pictures of it.

TH: Well, it's certainly an unusual canvas, for lack of a better term. What condition was it in when you started working on it?

JB: So every year it gets repainted, maintenance on it, different parts have to be fixed, but since it's done every year, it doesn't get too, too bad. It's right… right on the ocean, so the salt air mixed with our wild Canadian winters does a number on any paint job. So… and then the concrete, sometimes parts have to be re-fixed and things. So there wasn't too, too much damage but enough that I had to redo the tail painting, power-grind, sand, reprime and repaint a lot of different parts and some of the claws, too.

TH: I know you love lobsters as a… as a creature, but I wonder what you have to do to kind of get into the headspace to do a project like this on a lobster?

JB: Yeah. So in the application, they said the artist who takes over must research lobsters. [laughing] And I kind of laughed when I was reading that just because I love watching under the sea documentaries like “The Blue Planet” and different things like that. I would do a lot of research. I projected on my wall. And also, I like going to different aquariums just to look at them under the sea and just looking at the different spots and colours and shifts of plate and everything. So I would go to the Shedia Lobster Shop, and some of the workers indoors would come out and bring me a live lobster to look at. Sometimes at Sobeys, I’d just like stand at the lobster tank and stare at them [chuckling] and take pictures and video.

TH: I know when you got the job how excited you were. But what have been the challenges like now that you're actually doing the work?

JB: I think the biggest challenge is the fact that even though it's almost summer, there's still the fact that our weather is such a wild situation, especially being beside the sea. So the coastal weather always has a lot of fluctuations of rain and wind. Like, some days I'd have my paint kind of flying all over the place, so I'd have like two days working all day and then two days of rain. So really, I almost had to become a weather specialist as well [TH laughs] and see how long it would take for, like, it to dry.

TH: What's your deadline? When do you have to have it finished?

JB: Actually, I just finished yesterday.

TH: Outstanding. Wow!

JB: Yeah.

TH: How did that feel?

JB: Very good. By the end of it, I was working like 10 a.m. to 1 a.m. Each day that wasn't raining, I just would work until I basically couldn't really stand or see anymore. [both laugh]

TH: And you're going to be doing this for a while, I understand? What's the plan for this role you have as the lobster painter of Shediac?

JB: Yeah. So each year, around this time, I'll be working on it. Sometimes I'll have an assistant. My girlfriend helped me this year. She was very kind to help me. Lobster shoulder to cry on [both chuckle] when I was getting overwhelmed. And yeah, I'll just go forward each year. The contract wasn't a specific amount of time, but at least five to 10 years. So, I'm just going to… yeah, keep getting to know the lobster quite well. And it's different spikes and claws. [both laugh]

TH: After it's done now, you've completed the assignment, I wonder what it means to you to be the… the man responsible for keeping this lobster looking the way it does for the years to come?

JB: Well, I always thought it was super cool that I'm an abstract artist at heart, and I don't always know the majority of, like, the scale of what I'm doing until I've been doing all these national and international interviews. And so now I'm starting to realize just how big of a job it is being the world's largest lobster. And it's just different, so people love hearing about it. So it's quite unique.

TH: Jared, good to talk to you about this. Congratulations.

JB: Oh, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me.

CH: Jared Betts restored Shediac's Big Lobster statue. We reached him in nearby Moncton, New Brunswick.

[Music: Ambient]

Part 2: French Elections, KS Dead Cattle

FRENCH ELECTIONS

Guest: Philippe Marlière

CH: It was an election that handed historic gains to both the far-left and the far-right. And did real damage to the person in the centre: Emmanuel Macron. In France's recent legislative elections, voters opted not to give the newly-re-elected President an absolute majority in parliament. Which means that, after years of control, he'll need buy-in from other parties to get things done. Philippe Marlière is a politics professor at University College London.

TH: Philippe, let's start with the big headline. President Emmanuel Macron no longer has an absolute majority in parliament. Why couldn't he get his coalition over the line?

PHILIPPE MARLIÈRE: Well, there's a number of reasons. I think let's not forget that he was re-elected president six weeks ago. So, yes, it was… it would have seemed quite normal and logical that his party should win that election and should get an absolute majority, which it failed to get. And I think one of the reasons is that when he was re-elected, you know, facing Marine Le Pen in the second decisive round, a lot of voters decided finally to vote for him at the last minute, notably voters who are on the left. With one reason: it was a way to stop Le Pen from getting elected. So I think that when Macron was re-elected, there was no sort of enthusiasm, popular enthusiasm. Some of his policies, economic policies, were quite unpopular. And he, of course, has made a lot of enemies along the line, on the left and right. So he also… besides, he failed to campaign, really. That's one of the surprising things. He was very quiet the first few weeks of the campaign and chose to go abroad on a visit in Kyiv to meet with President Zelensky a few days just before the second decisive round. And if you put all that together, that explains that sort of two of the blocs on the left, the united left, which went to this election united for Wants and the far-right, led by Marine Le Pen, were in a position to benefit from the rising, increasing unpopularity of the… of President Macron.

TH: How likely, in your mind, is it that Macron even saw this coming?

PM: Well, I think it was in the cards in a way. Because opinion polls were consistently showing days before the election that he wouldn't get an absolute majority. So what was never in doubt is that he would be… his party, which would top all the other parties and come first, which is the case. So it's not, if you like, an absolute… it’s not a defeat either. To fail to have secured an absolute majority is a major problem for him because he's 44 MPs short of an absolute majority. Where is he going to get them simply to pass legislation?

TH: And there's this brand new leftist coalition that came out of the elections, the Greens, the Socialists and the Communists coming together with 131 votes. But it's new and there are a lot of parties involved. So how cohesive can that coalition be in opposition to Macron?

PM: Yeah, that's the big question. And I think you're right to stress that it is new. Will this stay united? You know, you've got in this coalition parties, which can be sort of positioned on the sort of radical populist left. This is Mélenchon’s party, which… who is the leader de facto of that coalition. You have also more moderate parties, the Greens, the Socialists. And it will be very hard, in my view, to… you know, to… to stay united. You know, there's a number of things which… questions which remain unanswered. And I think it will be very interesting. But for the time being, yes, it's a bit of a comeback for the left, which was in very poor shape just weeks ago.

TH: The other major gain made was by Marine Le Pen, her far-right National Rally Party, eight seats to 89. What happened there?

PM: Well, I think of all major outcomes of this election, this is probably the main one, frankly. Because to multiply tenfold your number of MPs without entering any coalition with anyone. That's what she did. And it… no one saw it coming, to be fair. I didn't see it coming, nor my colleagues. I think the explanation is that in a situation which is politically very volatile, where there's lots of anger, disillusion with regards to politics in general institutions, and also the person of Emmanuel Macron, I think they benefited from… from all that, if you like. They were the policy and the candidates that managed really to receive the votes of people who were disenfranchised, unhappy. So did the left to some extent. But principally, it was the far right which really got the votes. And that really wasn't expecting… I suppose Marine Le Pen herself was very surprised. She virtually did not campaign. She started the campaign by saying that Macron would get an absolute majority. [chuckle] So she was conceding defeat already from the start. And look now at what happened. And another very important point, which is worth stressing about the far-right in France is that far-right used to be very strong historically in the southeast of France. Then later on in the north and northeast, now it is spreading across the national territory. You know, having… you know, the having MPs elected in the southwest in central France regions in around Bordeaux, Aquitaine, Dordogne, those places which before never had any far-right MPAs elected. So that shows that this party is no longer seen as, you know, an extreme party by… by some voters, possibly not a threat to democracy. That used to be the case very much so until recently. So it's a bit of a mainstreaming, a normalization, of… of the party, which for all people opposing the far-right, of course, is… is a major worry.

TH: So we have a migration of voters to the far-right. We have this migration of voters to the far-left. What does that tell you about political divisions in France right now?

PM: Well, it shows above all that the political game is extremely polarized. French politics used to be… it used to be about two major blocs, the left and the right. And inside the left and inside the right, you had major parties. It's over. Those two parties are now in deep decline and the game is volatile. There are constant realignments. And it… it started with the election of Macron. Macron coming from a centre-left government. He was minister under the Hollande presidency. And he won that election with a sort of pledge to go beyond left and right, to be as much left-wing as right-wing, to sort of reconcile what's best on the left and what's best on the… on the right. And… but it didn't really work out this way, you know, because now he seems to have lost his left-wing and he's shifted to the right throughout his first term. And I think everyone sees Macron, particularly in France as a sort of centre-left leader. And it's very polarized, very unstable. There's… there is a potential deadlock in parliament because there's no majority. So it's a lot. And I think it's up to Macron now. He's is the man who has to give answer and… and suggest a way out of it. Otherwise I think his second term would be… would be very difficult.

TH: Philippe, good to talk to you. Thank you so much.

PM: You're welcome.

CH: That was Philippe Marlière. He's a politics professor at University College London.

[Music: Electronic]

HOCKEY CANADA SPENDING

CH: Hockey Canada is the subject of some pretty serious offside calls. Our colleagues at CBC news report that hockey's governing body in Canada received over 14 million dollars from the federal government over the past two years -- despite financial documents showing surpluses during that time. As well as a collection of stocks, bonds, cash, and other assets valued at over 150 million dollars. To make mattters worse, there are reports that the body may have used over three-and-a-half million dollars to settle a lawsuit, after eight former junior players were accused of sexual assault. Today, Hockey Canada officials appeared in front of the Standing Committee on Heritage. But before that, John Nater, the MP for Perth Wellington -- and also the Vice Chair of the Standing Committee -- brought the matter to the floor of the House of Commons.

[sc]

[clapping]

JOHN NATE: Mr. Speaker, Canadians have been shaken by reports of Hockey Canada's involvement in alleged sexual assaults and cover-ups. Hockey Canada is an organization that received $8.3 million from the Federal Government last year, paid no income tax despite having a surplus of $13.2 million. What action has the government taken to ensure sports organizations receiving federal funds, grants and contributions are taking real action to prevent sexual assaults, harassment and cover-ups?

ANTHONY ROTA: The Honourable Minister of Sport.

PASCALE ST-ONGE: Mr. Speaker, I want to start by saying that I was absolutely horrified and disgusted when I read the stories in the newspapers. As a woman, and an ex-athlete, I want Hockey Canada to answer all the legitimate questions around the… their actions. A financial audit is currently underway to shed light on Hockey Canada's spending and use of public money. We will not tolerate that any amount of money was spent on anything other than what was agreed in the contribution agreement between Sport Canada and Hockey Canada. If the agreement has not been respected, we will then take appropriate actions.

[clapping]

[/sc]

CH: That was Minister of Sport Pascale St-Onge responding to a question from Conservative MP John Nater today in Question Period. At committee today, Hockey Canada's Chief Executive Officer Scott Smith said his organization liquidated a portion of their investments to pay for the settlement for that lawsuit alleging sexual assault against eight former junior players. He said those investments are kept in a separate account from the money Hockey Canada receives from the government, among other funds.

[Music: Ambient]

KS DEAD CATTLE

Guest: Justin Waggoner

CH: The video looks apocalyptic. A car drives slowly by a Kansas field full of hundreds of dead cattle, their carcasses carefully arranged in rows. The livestock died of heat stress last week as the state, and much of the country, white-knuckled its way through a blistering heat wave. And in the days since, another wave has been spreading online: misinformation and conspiracy theories about what happened to the cows. Justin Waggoner is a professor at Kansas State University specializing in beef systems. We reached him in Garden City, Kansas.

TH: Justin, there's a lot of interesting explanations swirling around about this incident, but let's start with the basics. What actually happened to these cattle?

JUSTIN WAGGONER: So essentially, what happened on the weekend of June 10th and 12th was we had just a convergence of some rather unique weather factors here in western Kansas, where we had exceptionally high temperatures, well in excess of 100 degrees. That was coupled with high humidity as well as very low wind speeds. So that's really a perfect recipe for heat stress on any livestock, including cattle as well. And then, you know, really another factor that's with that is normally when we see in the summer months we'll often cool off in the evenings and over… overnight. And… and we really didn't cool off much during that particular weather event. And so, that's… that's really the what happened that is behind these cattle deaths that we experienced here in western Kansas.

TH: How many cattle died?

JW: You know, there's quite a few differing reports out there. You know, we hear some extreme numbers all the way up to 10,000. I would say that's… that's not the case at all. Really, at this point, I think our official report is around 2,000 head. I would anticipate that those losses could be larger than that. There will be a lag effect. There's, you know, some animals that succumb immediately because they just can't dissipate that heat load. But there's also animals that are going to be stressed and may become ill after that. And so, it's really too early to tell.

TH: You've had some contact with some of the feed yard owners and some of the managers who lost cattle. What are they telling you?

JW: You know, obviously, there's some challenges. Any time that you go through an event like this, you know, it's… it's very easy to overwhelm the system. These are businesses. And so there's, you know, normal operating procedures associated with caring for cattle. And this just really adds another layer to it. I think the other thing that it's important to stress is that, you know, for those that are used to being animal caretakers, going through an event like this where you've experienced some death loss, that's quite demoralizing. It's emotional for people outside of the industry to see some of these things happen. It's even more so for those people that are responsible for caring for those livestock or if they're the owners or ranchers associated with that. And there's also, you know, some concern about, you know, the financial losses and all those things that kind of come into play there as well.

TH: In the wake of this event, there was a Kansas City Star editorial that argued, and I'm quoting here, farmers can't afford to ignore science. In what way is climate change part of the conversation in the state now about what would happen with these cattle?

JW: You know, I don't think farmers and ranchers especially are certainly ignorant of climate change. I mean, weather is one of the largest unknown factors that we have to deal with in agriculture. And one of the things that, you know, we struggle with is maybe the variability of our climate. Now that maybe some linkage back to climate change, you know, possibly. But I certainly don't think that our farmers and ranchers here in a state like Kansas are… would be ignorant of climate change. It's something we're… we're kind of on the front lines of, right? So we have to respond to that on a daily basis. But, you know, it's really… it's really hard to say, you know, unless we start to see more of these events and, you know, as they occur. And, you know, I would like to think this is certainly may be outside of the norm for what we would… would experience.

TH: What do you think farmers, who you say are not ignorant of climate change yet are reluctant to link something like this to the effects of climate change?

JW: You know, a topic like climate change is we throw it out there in the headlines, you know, linking cattle deaths to climate change, you know, that that gets a lot of attention. But we have to, you know, track trends over time and changes and maybe put that data in front of people more. And I think sometimes the politicalness of the topic sometimes can… can overshadow kind of what we're dealing with on the ground.

TH: In the week or so since this happened, there's been a number of conspiracy theories about what happened to these cattle, including that they were poisoned or even killed intentionally in some way. What can you tell us about what you've heard?

JW: Well, there's been a lot of interesting theories that have been thrown out there, some… some very extreme things. Yeah, I think that's kind of the leading one that, you know, they all kind of link it back to is that it's some sort of a government issue here. And I can assure you that it's not.

TH: [chuckle] I don't… what would be a government conspiracy to kill cattle? What would that be?

JW: [ both chuckling] Well, I'm not sure. That's… that's maybe the… the part that makes it pretty interesting.

TH: Why do you think the story of these dead cattle inspired so many different ideas and theories, and information?

JW: You know, there is a bit of a disconnect between just agriculture and… and the consumer. And so sometimes when we have issues like this, it's… it's very easy to take a video or pictures or things that we may see and… and, you know, not necessarily having a full understanding or appreciation for… for maybe the events or how these animals are raised and… and the people that are behind that. And so, I think that sometimes that disconnect or that lack of information, you know, makes it very easy for… for some of those things to fill the… fill the gap if you will.

TH: What, if anything, can be learned from an incident, not only the incident itself, the death of these cattle, but also the public conversation afterwards in terms of how we deal with these issues?

JW: If there is something positive that can… can come from it is, I think, it's… it's great because it's it is certainly stimulated a lot of discussion. It's given those of us in agriculture, you know, including myself, you know, feed yard managers, veterinarians that work in the cattle feeding industry, really an opportunity to… to one, you know, talk about this issue of, you know, just like we did, here's why it happened. Here's what we try to do as managers, as veterinarians, as animal caretakers to offset that. And it's also really a reminder of how challenging our environment can be here in western Kansas. And… and that just… these are, unfortunately, some of the risks. And, you know, weather is a big factor of… of what we deal with on a daily basis.

TH: Justin, good to talk to you. Thanks so much.

JW: All right. Thank you.

CH: That was Kansas State professor Justin Waggoner. We reached him in Garden City, Kansas.

[Music: Ambient]

NL FLIGHT RESEARCH

CH: It's a mystery that's eluded searchers and historians for nearly 100 years. In 1927, during an attempt to make the first non-stop transatlantic flight between Paris and New York City, L'Oiseau Blanc -- or, The White Bird -- disappeared. The large French biplane carrying two pilots is suspected to have crashed on Newfoundland. At the time, residents of the Cape Shore say they watched the plane fly by -- and later, some even reported seeing pieces of airplane wreckage in a nearby pond. But no official conclusion was drawn, and the plane itself has never been found. But Ric Gillespie won't stop looking. He's the executive director of The International Group for Historic Aircraft, and he's spent the past 40 years searching for the White Bird.

[sc]

RIC GILLESPIE: God, it was 1980. I was running an aviation insurance agency in New Jersey, and my brother sent me a clipping from a magazine called The Yankee Magazine titled "The Unfinished Flight of The White Bird". And it talked about the disappearance of The White Bird and about a legend from far Downeast Maine, about an old woodsman fishing on a lake on a foggy morning who heard an airplane pass overhead and crash into the hills west of the lake. And the article ended, maybe someday someone will find a rusted engine in the woods, and a great mystery will be solved. And I thought, what do you mean, somebody may find it? Somebody needs to go look. So, four years later, I was in a position to do something about that. And we started searching. But in Newfoundland, there are more than stories. There are the witness reports which come down to the Avalon Peninsula from north to south, from back Baccalieu Island down to St Mary's. And then people in St Mary's saw the airplane crossing St Mary's Bay, apparently on fire. Now, whether it was on fire or had suffered a coolant leak, it was a liquid-cooled engine, it left a trail of steam that looked like smoke. We don't know. But that's where the hard evidence ends. And it's hard evidence because these people swore affidavits before magistrates at the time. That's good, solid, hard evidence. At the pond on the Cape Shore, it's a legend. It's people's stories told years later. Much fuzzier, but worth checking out.

KRISSY HOLMES: And it's worth mentioning, I mean, we're talking about 1927, right? I mean, this would have been… you know, there wasn't a lot of, you know, planes in the sky. [both chuckle] This would have stood out in your memory at this time, right?

RG: There were no active aircraft in Newfoundland on May 9th, 1927. If… if these people heard and saw an airplane as they swore at the time they did, it was The White Bird. This is the Cape Shore story. And… and I've always stressed that what we're doing is for Newfoundland and for the people of the Cape Shore. Anything that's found there belongs to Newfoundland by law. And this is… this is part of Newfoundland's fantastic aviation history, heritage. And there's so much aviation history in Newfoundland.

[/sc]

CH: Ric Gillespie is the executive director of The International Group for Historic Aircraft Recovery. He was speaking with Krissy Holmes, host of The St. John's Morning Show.

[Music: Poppy beat]

Part 3: Ukrainians to Canada, Eagles Raise Hawks

FOA: FIRST NATIONS EMERGENCY ALERT SYSTEM

CH: An experimental alert system run by First Nations in Cape Breton is proving its worth. It was created by Jennifer Jesty, the Emergency Management Coordinator at the Union of Nova Scotia Mi'kmaq. Since 2020, it has sent out over a hundred emergency alerts. The text messages and phone calls have helped reunite missing kids with their parents, tell people about boil-water advisories, and pass on warnings about attempts to recruit people into the sex trade. Now, there are hopes that similar systems could be started across Nova Scotia, and across the country. In 2020, guest host Helen Mann spoke with Jennifer Jesty before the launch of the alert system. Here is part of that interview, from our archives.

[sc]

JENNIFER JESTY: So there are a lot of things that take place in our communities that are priorities to us but may not affect the rest of the province. So such things as missing children or severe weather alerts or even a boil water order, can now be in control by our chiefs and also just go to our community members when it's something that just directly affects that individual community.

HM: Why could you not use the provincial alert system in that way though?

JJ: The provincial alert system, I did speak with them when in the beginning when I was beginning to develop the system. And it turns out that the only way that those alerts could be broadcast were kind of over cell phone and over the television. But one of the really important features of that was that it's not able to ring a home telephone. And for most of our elders in our community, that's really their only form of communication. So that's really the major difference between our system and the provincial alert system.

HM: There's also a language component. Tell me about that.

JJ: This is one thing too that I'm very excited about is when the chief is going to send out the message, he can record his own voice so it can both be in Mi'kmaw and English, which I feel is going to just gap the bridge between the language barrier when it comes to something that's as serious as any of these events could possibly be.

HM: How did you come up with this idea?

JJ: So when I started to think about what would I like to make a priority, and I thought, well, the most important component of any emergency is communication. So let's say, God forbid there's an active shooter in Eskasoni -- how are we telling everybody? And so I said, well, there's got to be a way. Something must exist out there that we can communicate to our community members all at once.

HM: You mentioned a mass shooting. And, of course, people will remember in April that Nova Scotia police did not issue an alert during that two day manhunt after 22 people were killed. How concerning was that for your community?

JJ: the whole entire incident really brought to light the importance of communication within our communities. Again, I come from a background of boots on the ground and not so much the planning phases. I'm usually the person putting out the fire or saving a life. So I'm used to being in the middle of the emergency and can fully appreciate the chaos that must have been going on then.

HM: How vital is it that you won't have to wait for the RCMP to make a determination about whether an alert should be issued?

JJ: Well, you know, we didn't develop this system in spite of them or, you know, to be able to kind of shine a dark light on the RCMP and the decisions that they have to make. But now with our communities being able to have that information, this alert could be sent out within minutes. So we hope to not exactly work against the RCMP when it comes to missing children, but we hope that this may be able to bridge a gap.

[/sc]

CH: From 2020, that was guest host Helen Mann speaking with Jennifer Jesty of the Union of Nova Scotia Mi'kmaq about the text-message alert system she created. After two years of success, she's hoping to expand the system.

[Music: Hip-hop beat]

UKRAINIANS TO CANADA

Guest: Oksana Grygorieva

CH: Three months ago, Oksana Grygorieva convinced her parents to make the hardest decision of their lives. Leonid and Iryna Kubatina picked up and fled the Ukranian city of Kharkiv, with the expectation that they would soon join their daughter in Canada. The Canadian government had promised to cut the red tape for Ukrainian refugee applications, aiming to get visas processed within 14 days. But the documents still haven't arrived -- and Ms. Grygorieva's parents are getting desperate. We reached Oksana Grygorieva in Toronto.

TH: Oksana, what is life like for your parents in Poland right now?

OKSANA GRYGORIEVA: Sad, frustrating life, I would say. So, they're staying in a volunteer house. Absolute strangers, to be honest, hosting them. They don't feel really well about that. But it's really difficult to find a place to rent while they were not registered as refugees in Poland.

TH: How stressful has the experience been for them? How would you describe that?

OG: Extremely stressful. Obviously, anyone expected the war. So it's nothing that you can compare with. But, like, in the first place, the trip that they took from Kharkiv to Poland was very stressful, very difficult for them. And even regarding all the… all the circumstances and all the dangers that they're faced in Kharkiv. But still, they… they were hesitant in taking that trip. They both are retired. And for them, it's a big step. And the only thing that kept them motivated was the idea that they were coming to see their daughter and coming to see their granddaughter, so to… to unite with their family. And this is what actually made them make the decision.

TH: And let's talk about that. The Canadian government says it tries to process applications in 14 days. What do you know about why this application of your parents is taking so long?

OG: The only information that they give is that their applications are being processed. And this is it. They don't give any reasons for such delay. And I tried emailing them and using all the, like, ways of communication that they provide on their website. But once they told me that their application does… like don't seem any different from any others, so it's quite a regular case. Nothing special about them. But they do not comment on why it takes so long.

TH: And what is that like to be going through the process the proper way and get no explanation?

OG: I don't know what to say? So, chuckle] to be honest, I'm just trying to help and I don't really get the answer. I feel like I'm, and we are as a family, we are being stonewalled, you know? So, at least if they gave me at least an explanation of what additional documents may be needed or anything like that. But there is no information in their portal where they submitted the application. So it only says that we applied on the 18th of March and submitted their biometrics on 22nd of March, and this was it.

TH: Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada, IRCC that you've reached out to. They say it's received almost 300,000 applications from Ukrainians, and less than half of those have been approved so far. Although yours, according to one immigration lawyer, is taking a lot longer than it normally should. But I guess what do you want the government to understand about your parents particular situation?

OG: Yeah, I understand that there are many applications and I understand that there are different… different situations. But just one thing that I maybe I can say is that not every situation is the same. And for us, for example, staying in Poland or anywhere else is… it's a total stress. And it's not like taking a vacation or taking a trip, having no idea what to do next because even rescheduling their flights when they face the fact that I need to reschedule their flights, I have no idea when… when to do that? Like, which day should I do?

TH: What do you tell your parents to convince them to hang on a bit longer, even though it's been so long?

OG: Well, it's not only me convincing them. It's the news, local Kharkiv news, that they read. Kharkiv has been shelled almost every single day since the war started and some of the neighbourhoods, buildings and houses were damaged. The place where we lived, it's quiet. Not like City Centre. It's Kharkiv suburbs. But, unfortunately, it's very close to Russian border.

TH: You know, I wonder if they reconciled the idea that maybe they can never really go back to Kharkiv?

OG: Yes, they do think about that. Even I mean, maybe here in Canada, when you live in peace and everything is fine, this idea seems crazy. Like, how can you go back to the place where there is fighting, there is war going on in like 10 or 20 kilometres away. But for them, it's their home. I mean, they… they lived there all their lives. And they only want to go home. It's… well, it's probably the biggest dream for all… for all Ukrainians right now, the war to just stop and so they can go back home.

TH: What will it mean to you to see your parents again whenever that day comes?

OG: [chuckle] I love… I would love to see them because I'm a mom of a six-year-old. And she keeps asking me, Mom, when… when Granny is coming? And I hate to tell her because I don't know. I thought her Granny was coming soon, but now I don't know what to say. And she keeps asking. I don't know what to say.

TH: Well, I hope you do see your parents very soon. Thanks for talking to us.

OG: Yeah, thank you very much.

CH: We reached Oksana Grygorieva in Toronto.

[Music: Sombre]

BC HOCKEY OFFICIAL OF THE YEAR

CH: A dental student and a hockey referee walk into a bar. In fact, they walk everywhere together. Because they're both Grace Barlow. Ms. Barlow has refereed a number of high-profile games this hockey season in Prince George, British Columbia -- including as part of the first all-female crew to officiate a Junior A Game. And she did it all while training to be a dentist. Now she's been named the BC Hockey "Official of the Year". Grace Barlow described what it was like to learn the news.

[sc]

GRACE BARLOW: Oh, it's… you know, it's a great feeling to be recognized by the leadership there as well as some of my coaches and the players and some of those players' coaches. Just to be recognized as… as an official that is making impact, it means a lot.

MATT ALLEN: Do you have any highlights, personal things that you remember from the season?

GB: You know what? The… the biggest highlight for me this season was being a part of that crew, the first female crew to officiate a Junior A game in Canada. I had that opportunity to work with some of my best friends in that game. And… and it was a great game that ended up, you know, opening some great doors for female officiating and kicked off a really great season for myself. So I'd say that's probably one of my biggest highlights this year.

MA: It's pretty convenient [chuckling], you know, to be a dentist and a hockey referee at the same time. Like, you're right. Like, you've got a wide pool of potential clients there just… just waiting for you. Are there any transferable skills between officiating and dentistry?

GB: You know what? I wish there were. I wish there were more, at least. But definitely, leadership. As a dentist, you are the leader of your office. And in officiating, you are the leader of the game. You're the one that's making sure that it's a fair and it's a safe game. But actually, this season, I had a… I had a BCHL game. And one of the players, he hit his head on the ice, and he hit his chin, and a couple of his teeth came out.

MA: Okay.

GB: In the intermission, I went down, and I had to make sure that he was okay and advise his trainer of how to deal with it and get him to the nearest hospital to get him help. So that was a little bit interesting. And I was happy that I was there to at least be able to advise and educate at least. But I wasn't much help. But hopefully, in the future, I'll be able to help a little bit more in case that happens. Because it does happen more frequently than you think.

MA: Sure, yeah. How much do you worry about people's teeth on the ice? Does that, like, break your heart a little bit every time somebody takes a hit?

GB: Oh, all the time. All the time. Especially like with this player, he had beautiful teeth. Just finished his orthodontics, right? [MA laughs] It broke my heart watching that happen. But yes, I'm always very aware of where sticks are, where pucks are, especially for myself as well. But yeah, definitely… definitely seeing some kids with, you know, three teeth missing. I'm like, oh, man. Like, I wonder if they're going to get a partial denture or are we doing a bridge there?

MA: Right.

[/sc]

CH: That was BC Hockey "Official of the Year" Grace Barlow speaking with Matt Allen of Daybreak North.

[Music: Rock]

OTTAWA PRIDE FLAG VANDALIZED

CH: It's Pride Month. And across the country, rainbow flags are flying. But on Friday night, there was one fewer flag flying on Poplar Street in Ottawa. That's where Jane Harley and her family live. When they put up their pride flag this month, they couldn't have anticipated what would happen to it, or how their neighbours would respond. Here's Jane Harley explaining when she noticed something was wrong.

[sc]

JANE HARLEY: On Saturday morning, actually, we found it on our porch under a rock. A neighbour texted and said that she had found it under her car and the rivets had actually been ripped right out. So, we checked our security camera footage and… and sure enough, two young men had approached our house. They were walking backwards and covering their faces with… with their hoodies or their coats. And they approached our house and the one jumped up on the porch to rip it down while the other took photos.

HALLIE COTNAM: How did you feel when you saw that?

JH: Oh, just angry. Immediately furious. But it quickly turned to feeling quite sick to my stomach because it was obviously hate-motivated. It could be mischief. But so is, you know, breaking a car window or spray painting something. Pulling down a flag, a Pride flag, which is, you know, a symbol of pride, of course, of the… of the two-spirited and LGBTQ+ community. And one that we fly in solidarity and support for our… for our neighbours. It's… I think, pulling down the flag, yes, it might have just been mischief. And yes, it might have been a young men doing something stupid. But because of the symbol of what the flag stands for, it seemed more than just mischief to me.

HC: Yeah. What I find fascinating is how your neighbours have reacted to this. Tell me what --

JH Yes.

HC: What has been born here?

JH: Me too. We let many of our neighbours know what happened right away. And one person's immediate response was, where did you get the flag? I want one. Time to blast the block with love. And other people said the same thing and, you know, expressed similar sentiments. So we offered to make a big order for more flags. For our block alone, we ordered 13 flags. And they arrived yesterday. And our street looks amazing. [HC chuckles] And it's… it really means a lot to know that we have a community that… that embraces everyone.

[/sc]

CH: That was Jane Harley speaking to Hallie Cotnam on the CBC's Ottawa Morning.

[Music: Horns!!!]

EAGLES RAISE HAWKS

Guest: David Bird

CH: There is no such thing as a "normal childhood." But some are less normal than others. Like, if you're part of a family that's been feuding for centuries and suddenly find yourself being raised by your mortal enemies. Who not only do not puncture your body with their powerful talons -- but lovingly lower chunks of meat into your gaping beak. This is what is happening to a red-tailed hawk that's been adopted by a pair of bald eagles. Which is extremely rare. But if it sounds familiar, it's because the same thing did happen four years ago in a nest in Sidney, B.C. Now, back then, we spoke to David Bird, who studied birds of prey for 40 years at McGill University before retiring to Sidney. Today, we reached him on the road, in Manning Park, B.C.

TH: Professor Bird, what did you think the chances were you would see another baby red-tailed hawk being raised by bald eagles?

DAVID BIRD: Well, I don't think in my lifetime I would have believed I'd see that. I'm a bit shocked, actually, but I was even more shocked when I was told that they actually had footage of the adult eagle dropping the hawk into the nest. I mean, that's… that is amazing. It just so happened that this particular nest on Gabriola Island up near Nanaimo happened to have a webcam on this particular nest. I mean, think about the odds. There's about 25 nests, roughly, of Gabriola Island. And this might be the only one or one of two that has a webcam on it. So to get that documented was amazing because what it did, Tom, is it documented the fact that this bird likely came from a red-tailed hawk nest that was preyed upon by the adult bald eagles, and they were bringing it home for food for their own eaglets.

TH: What was it… was it an egg, or was it a bird?

DB: No, no, it was a… it was a young, fluffy ball. I think it looked like it was about maybe two to three weeks old. But, you know, when they're that age, a red-tailed hawk looks very much like a tiny one-week-old baby bald eagle. So, it didn't look that much different. But the thing is that as soon as it was dropped into the nest… I mean, the other miracle is that it wasn't squeezed to death by the talons and toes of a bald eagle. I've… I've had these on my fist. I know what that feels like. So it survived that. And then, in the video, you can see the… the mother eagle dropping it into the nest in front of her baby eagle to be torn apart. And the next thing you know, the little heart bounces up and starts begging for food right away. And that's what saved his life.

TH: [laughing] Incredible. What do you think happened? Was it a change of heart or… like, how… how would you explain the fact --

DB: No, what it is really is it was just a conflict in the… in the parent eagle's mind that, yes, it has an eaglet to feed, and it has this hawk to feed it to. But at the same time, there's this other baby raptor in its nest begging for food. And so, it either had to kill it to feed its eaglet or start feeding the hawk. And, of course, just like what's happened in a couple of cases before this, the famous case in Sydney where I live, they chose the… the latter, to feed the baby hawk.

TH: So, is it pretty much an identical example of what happened before when we talked to you last?

DB: Well, the only thing that's different is that this time there's only one eaglet for the… the hawk to compete with. In the Sydney nest, there were actually three. And the other thing is that this particular nest is located in a very, very sort of remote area of Gabriola Island. And the people that live there don't want birdwatchers to go there. And there's no parking there anyway. So, they're trying to keep the location secret just so they can have their privacy. And I fully understand that.

TH: The story has obviously the added significance because of the story of that first bird. Whatever happened to that one?

DB: Well, that's a good question. Since I live in the town of Sydney, I was going there on a daily basis. And for about two or three weeks after the hawk left the nest… and they never leave right away. They… they usually hang around, and they chase after mom and dad for food or or whatever. And then they usually try to find food on their own. But the worry with this guy was bald eagles in that area eat things that are found in the tidal flats, you know, like small fish and that sort of thing. And that's not a red-tailed hawk menu item. So this thing was more interested in eating things like mice and rabbits and so on. So a colleague of mine from the Hancock Wildlife Foundation who is watching these eagles, we're actually going to make a documentary and write a scientific paper on these adoption behaviours by bald eagles. He put out a child swimming pool with some prey in it, and the hawk survived okay. It had quite an attitude anyway. You can imagine a little tiny hawk living in a small confined nest with three large eagles about five times bigger than it is.

TH: The fact that this has happened several times, what does that tell us about the relationship between these two birds? It's not like… it doesn't seem to be happenstance. It happens maybe more than you'd think. What does that mean?

DB: Well, bald eagles, like all birds of prey, are very opportunistic. And so, if they're flying about and they, of course, cover a lot of distance and so on, and note that there's a red-tailed hawk nest with some baby hawks in it, you can be certain that they're going to, you know, basically visited at one point and grab the youngsters to feed to their own baby eagles. So it's just an opportunism thing. If it happens to be a red-tailed hawk nest in the area of the bald eagle territory, then they're likely going to take the youngsters home, either dead or alive.

TH: What happens now, do you think, to this red-tailed hawk living with these eagles? What's… what's his future?

DB: He's in great health. And people can go watch this any time they want now. All we have to do is Google the growls… like growling… growls eagle webcam, and they'll be able to look at this hawk in the nest. That's the… that's the other neat thing about this is that everybody can really enjoy.

TH: But how likely is it for this hawk to leave the nest, so to speak?

DB: Oh, I think…. I think the odds are really good, Tom. He's in very good health, and his sibling has seemed to have accepted him. I mean, the risk was when you have three eaglets in the nest, like in the Sydney nest, the chances were probably fairly good that one of them was going to say one day, hey, this guy is a lot smaller than me, and I'm hungry, so I'm going to start pecking at him. And that's what happens sometimes when you get two baby raptors in a nest with one bigger than the other. But it didn't happen. The guy had a bit of an attitude, and I suspect this one's got a bit of an attitude as well. And he'll… he'll likely fledge from the nest. But, unfortunately, because we can't climb up to the tree and put a special identifying leg band on him, we're not going to ever know what happens to him once he leaves the area.

TH: Professor, what do you hope people can take away from a story like this of these two different birds ending up in the same place?

DB: Well, Tom, I studied birds of prey all my life. And I also do a lot of public outreach. And one of the things that saddens me most is when I get someone calling me up saying, I've got a hawk in my backyard attacking my feeder birds, how can I get rid of it? I want people to appreciate birds of prey just as much as they appreciate songbirds at the feeders. I mean, they… they have a right to live. They have a role to play in society and in the world of nature. And… and they're beautiful birds and they're just doing what would comes natural. It's nature red in tooth and claw. And so, I just want people to appreciate birds of prey. They're… they're pretty spectacular.

TH: Professor, good to talk to you. Thanks so much.

DB: My pleasure, Tom. Thank you.

CH: David Bird is an Emeritus Professor of Wildlife Biology at McGill University. We reached him in Manning Park, B.C.

Back To Top »

Provide Transcript Feedback

CBC would like to acknowledge the support of the Broadcasting Accessibility Fund.

June 20th, 2022 Episode Transcript

More Stories Like This