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The AIH Transcript for June 16th, 2022

CATHERINE CULLEN: Hello, I'm Catherine Cullen.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight

CC: Not buying it. Finance Minister Chrystia Freeland says the federal government is doing everything in its power to address inflation -- but a member of the opposition says the Liberals are inflating what they've actually done.

CH: Laundry list. A new report blames ministers, bureaucrats, and law enforcement for allowing money laundering to grow unchecked in B.C. for years. And our guest says it all comes down to a "failure of will."

CC: Not mincing words. Health Canada has proposed warning labels about fat levels on packages of ground beef. And that's got ranchers cheesed off -- especially because dairy and eggs are exempt.

CH: More than a feline. New research shows that when your cat flumps itself down on a catnip plant, it's not just getting high. It's also releasing high levels of a natural insect repellent.

CC: Shell shock. Scientists were stunned -- and thrilled -- to find a giant tortoise long thought to be extinct living on a pristine island in the Galapagos. Our guest has joined the shellebration.

CH: And keeping a multilevel head. A new design for a double-decker airplane seat -- where one passenger is stacked on another -- is eliciting some strong reactions. But the university student who came up with the concept suggests you try before you cry.

CH: As It Happens, the Thursday edition. Radio that figures you can complain all you want, but it’ll end in tiers.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Chrystia Freeland Inflation, B.C. Money Laundering Report, Tortoise Not Extinct

Chrystia Freeland Inflation

Guest: Dan Albas

CH: Chrystia Freeland says inflation isn't a made-in-Canada problem. The Deputy Prime Minister was on Bay Street in Toronto today, to outline her government's response to the rapid pace of price hikes that are hitting Canadians everywhere they turn. Ms. Freeland said the problem began with the pandemic and has been exacerbated by lockdowns in China, and Vladimir Putin's invasion of Ukraine.

[sc]

CHRYSTIA FREELAND: Canada doesn't have a say in Beijing's public health measures, and we clearly aren't consulted when the Kremlin makes its war plans. I… I sure am not. [laughter in the crowd] No single country can solve these global problems, but what we can do is help Canadians weather this newest storm, just as we've done over these past two years. With a plan, we will take real and tangible steps to get inflation under control and to make life more affordable for Canadians.

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CH: Deputy Prime Minister Chrystia Freeland in Toronto today. Dan Albas is the Conservative finance critic. We reached him in Ottawa.

CC: Mr. Albas, you just heard Chrystia Freeland say this is a global problem. Yes, it requires a Canadian plan. Do you accept that analysis of the situation?

DAN ALBAS: Well, every country, particularly every G7 country, has been tackling this. The Germans, who are the most industrialized and closest to the action, they import a large amount of energy from Russia. They've done a 16 billion U.S. dollar plan to help with gas prices. To the south of us, President Biden has opened up the strategic reserves. In the U.K., they've actually rolled back some gas taxes, and they're looking at others. So far, this government just seems to be content to sit back and watch others lead. And that's not going to help Canadians when they're feeling the price of the pumps bearing down on them, or their mortgages are going up, and their grocery costs are the highest they've been since 1981. She's not taking action to help Canadians today. In fact, today, we saw her lecture Canadians on how good it is. And unlike these other countries, they are not taking action.

CC: Would you support, then, more government spending? And you're saying she's not taking action today. I know you have your own set of proposals, but if she had come out today and said, okay, here's some new spending, so more Canadians have money in their pockets, would you have been onside with that?

DA: Well, that's essentially what she added today, that they're going to be adding to the inflation to things like Old Age Security. And those… those have been voted on by parliament. But she's doing nothing to address people's issues today. So, for example, government is getting more windfall revenue right now from high gas prices, from high commodities and just overall inflation. So we've proposed cutting things like the GST at the pumps so that when people go to fuel up, they're not paying that five per cent. We've even said take it off in those carbon tax provinces that the federal government collects it. That's what we do on things like GST at grocery stores for food. It's a way to show that we care about affordability.

CC: Well, your solution, for instance, the suspension of GST on gas and diesel, that would help everyone who buys gas. But obviously, people who make more money, who have more money, are spending more money on gas. When you look at the Liberal solutions, things like enhancing the Canada Workers Benefit, they say three million Canadians here. These are low-income Canadians, and they're seeing this money on their 2021 tax return. Isn't it better to be helping the people who need it most rather than anybody who's going to put gas in their car?

DA: So, let's look at what happened in Alberta when they dropped their gas taxes. So, Trevor Tomb, who is an economist at the University of Calgary, said that in April, because of the actions that the Alberta government took to reduce gas prices, they actually saw lower inflation than the rest of Canada. And this is because gas is one of the major inputs to inflation. So when they're putting $16 billion U.S. in Germany, they're not just helping protect consumers. They're actually helping the economy cool by not allowing the greatest input, gasoline, to fire up inflation.

CC: But I'm asking, do you fundamentally reject the suggestion that the money that is going to Canadians right now should go specifically towards those who are lower-income Canadians, through things like the worker benefit, through things like OAS versus just giving everybody a break?

DA: Well, we… we… we… the Harper government, when we originally cut the GST from seven to five per cent, that helped low-income people the most. And those that received the GST cheques today still get it at the seven per cent level. So, Conservatives are very compassionate on these things and want to help out those on lowest income. The other side of the issue is many people of low income in my riding don't have access to public transit. So, when they need to get groceries, when they need to go to medical appointments in Headley, B.C., they have to drive. And you know what? To get groceries to them, there's transportation costs. So, when you've lower things like gasoline and diesel costs, it actually makes life more affordable for everyone. The government is not taking action to help with inflation. What they're doing is simply putting more money in the economy. And yes, there are going to be some people that benefit, but not every Canadian is over 75 or has kids requiring childcare. There are many Canadians with decent jobs who find themselves increasingly unable to make ends meet because they can't afford $100 a week or more just on gas. Today's announcement from the finance minister has failed them.

CC: I want to ask you about something else that Chrystia Freeland said during her speech. She warned that meddling with the Bank of Canada was, quote, economically illiterate along with being irresponsible. Did you see that as a swipe at the candidate that you're supporting in the Conservative leadership race, Pierre Poilievre.

DA: Well, I got to say, I had hoped that Chrystia Freeland had a bit of a thicker skin than it comes to others. But look, Tiff Macklem has said he's going to let the politicians debate things like that. And last week, one of his senior deputy governors said that the banks should be accountable like everyone else. And I will tell you, Catherine, when you speak to my constituents. Right now, they see the price of everything going up. They don't have a way to be able to deal with both the rising interest rates and with the prices at the pump and at grocery stores. So you know what? I think criticism is due. The bank has one job: price stability.

CC: So, criticism is one thing, though. Do you personally believe that the governor of the Bank of Canada should be fired? It's one thing to criticize. It's another to say somebody should be cost their job.

DA: So right now, the Conservatives, we have some members that believe that the governor should be fired. We have other members that don't. So, we're going to leave that to the membership to decide who our new leader is and what will become our Conservative policy. But I will tell you right now that instead of deflecting and pointing the finger and calling people names, we're asking Chrystia Freeland to start meeting with her deputy minister, start working until midnight on how she can fight inflation, not fuel it.

CC: Mr. Albas, you haven't answered the question, though. You are the Conservative finance critic. You are backing Pierre Pollirve. Is it responsible to call for the bank of the Governor of Canada to be fired? Do you support that, yes or no?

DA: Okay. So, I support having a debate on these issues. And I don't support calling people names. At the same time, though, we will let our membership decide who the leader will be and what our Conservative policy would be. But I will tell you, a deputy governor last week said that the banks should be accountable. When Tiff Macklem and Carolyn Rogers come to the Finance Committee, I am respectful, but I am also tough. Because price stability is the number one job. Stopping inflation is the one job the Bank of Canada has, and I expect them to do it.

CC: Thank you for your time today, Dan Albas.

DA: Thank you, Catherine.

CH: Dan Albas is the Conservative finance critic. We reached him in Ottawa.

[Music: Ambient]

BC Money Laundering Report

Guest: David Eby

CH: For years, the RCMP's lack of attention to money-laundering in British Columbia allowed it to grow, largely unchecked -- at an estimated loss of billions of dollars per year. That's the finding of an independent commission that investigated the laundering of illicit funds flowing through casinos, real estate, and luxury goods. The commission, which also casts blame on Canada's financial intelligence unit, FinTRAC, and calls the federal anti-money-laundering regime "ineffective." So it's urging B.C. to take matters into its own hands, with the creation of a dedicated police unit and an anti-money-laundering commissioner. David Eby is the attorney general of British Columbia. We reached him in Vancouver.

CC: Minister, 1,800 pages, three years, nearly 200 witnesses. You still have some observers saying there's not really anything new here. I want to know, what did you learn from this report that you didn't already know?

DAVID EBY: Yeah, I find it astonishing that people would say we didn't [chuckling] find anything new here. There are all kinds of red flags that were presented. And certainly, in our casinos, we saw one manifestation of it. But the extent of the problem and then the corollary, the failure, unfortunately, of a significant number of the federal agencies, the safeguards that are supposed to be in place. That was new information for me. The fact that police have to wait three months for their information, requests from the anti-money-laundering agency when they're investigating a crime is unacceptable. The fact that the trade-based money laundering working group that was announced just in 2018 is no longer functional because the main person left and was never replaced is not acceptable. The fact that the federal government gave a licence to the money service business that was under criminal investigation, that was at the centre of the largest federal anti-money laundering prosecution in Canadian history. I just don't understand how those things can happen?

CC: So, you've offered up quite a list there. What do you say to people who might wonder, given the scope of the problem, how you can be surprised that so many of these things aren't working properly?

DE: Well, you know, when we hear announcements from our partners at the federal level that they're concerned about this, that they're taking steps to address it, we have some confidence in that. When we hear from FinTRAC that they're implementing leading money laundering controls that are working closely with police to share information. And we have confidence in that. And when the commissioner looked and found an incredible shortage of police within the RCMP investigating this in B.C. and month-long delays from FinTRAC in providing information, it's obviously problematic.

CC: Okay, let's start with FinTRAC. The report saying that it received something like 31 million reports, only passing along about 2,000 intelligence reports to law enforcement. And of those, only 355 to agencies in B.C.. but how quickly can that be turned around and improved?

DE: Well, the commissioner made the… what to me was an astonishing recommendation that the province essentially stop relying on finTRAC, that we set up our own intelligence-gathering arm, in particular in relation to the sale of luxury goods in our province, the sale of grey market automobiles, money service businesses, regulatory regimes that the federal government is supposed to be doing that he, I guess, given these recommendations, doesn't have confidence that they'll be able to be addressed at the federal level. And so that's why I'm really hopeful that the new Federal Minister, Mr. Mendicino, will be… who's in receipt of this report, will commit to working with us to address this issue. I hope he has the support of the prime minister and the cabinet doing that because to have a commissioner say, look, the feds, you know, you can't count on them anymore, you need to do this yourself is… it's discouraging because I know we could do a lot better if we do it together.

CC: Well, I also want to talk about how feasible some of this is when it comes to B.C. taking more powers? The commission recommending the province create an intelligence investigative police unit to target money laundering, an independent money laundering commissioner that would be accountable to the public. Do you have a sense of how much all of that might cost British Columbia?

DE: Yeah, it's going to be expensive for the province to set up, but the commissioner didn't leave us without a way to potentially fund this. He compared British Columbia to comparable jurisdictions, New Zealand, perhaps the United States, in terms of our civil forfeiture regime. This is the system where we take property that was accumulated through the proceeds of crime. And he said by increasing our aggressiveness, frankly, around this regime, we'll have a couple of goals achieved when it's funding this necessary work. The other is deterring this activity. And in particular, the things that attract young people into a life of crime; the vehicles, the luxury goods, the properties. We'll make it less appealing for young people to be involved in, for example, gang crime.

CC: Are you confident you could staff such a unit?

DE: Yeah. That's… I mean, that's an important question because the RCMP have funded positions for anti-money laundering policing in our province that are not staffed. There's a key finding of the commissioner and a disturbing finding that the majority of the unit is just not there. And… and that other priorities are pulling those officers away. I think the key is in the commissioner's recommendation that this would be a dedicated unit. Then we'd be able to keep it staffed instead of having them pulled off in other directions.

CC: Among those who are not happy with the result of this report is the B.C. Civil Liberties Association. They've tweeted that they are, quote, extremely disappointed by the Cullen Commission report, which calls for an expansion of policing, information sharing and asset forfeiture. How do you respond?

DE: Yeah, that organization has an important role to play in terms of advocating for privacy, and due process, and protection of rights. But ultimately, when you're talking about confidence in a democracy, confidence in our justice system, confidence in government, accountability for criminal activity, especially the people who are profiting from criminal activity, it needs to be treated with the same aggression as the street-level crime.

CC: So let me --

DE: It's all about a balance between these things.

CC: Let me ask you, though. I mean, surely you can understand that when the commissioner's report says that there has to some extent been a failure of policing, the fact that the response will be, to some extent, more policing is not going to satisfy some folks. It's going to concern them.

DE: Yeah, the failure in this case was the absence of police. The absence of the regulatory authorities that were supposed to protect us from this. The position is funded but vacant. The regulator is collecting information but not sharing it. These are unacceptable failures, but I'm not sure that the response to that is to give up.

CC: What do you say to the people of British Columbia, and outside British Columbia, who say, when is this ever going to get better?

DE: Well, I would say to them that there are definitely signs of hope. First of all, the commissioner found that as far as the issue in our casinos that that issue is resolved in terms of the cash and bank drafts that were coming into the casinos. So, we are able to solve these problems. We are able to move on. We have new information-sharing agreements with Revenue Canada and with police. But the core of the commission's recommendation and what's new is one of the reasons why we've struggled to see results is our partners at the federal level really need to step up. And… and failing that, the province is going to have to do that work. So people should expect to see legislation as soon as our next sitting over the legislature. And beyond that, we'll be working with the Commission around implementation of the other recommendations. So that work is underway right now.

CC: Minister, thank you for your time today.

DE: Thanks for having me.

CH: David Eby is B.C.'s attorney general. We reached him in Vancouver.

[Music: Sombre piano]

Tortoise Not Extinct

Guest: Evelyn Jensen

CH: Fernanda the tortoise isn't just a survivor. She's a scientific miracle. When researchers stumbled upon Fernanda during a visit to a pristine island in the Galapagos, they were operating under the assumption that her species -- sometimes called the fantastic giant tortoise -- was extinct. Now, the results of a full genetic investigation have been released, proving otherwise. Evelyn Jensen is the lead author of the study, which was just published in the journal Communications Biology. We reached her in Newcastle, England.

CC: Evelyn, we're talking about a fantastic giant tortoise. How come it took 100 years to track one down?

EVELYN JENSEN: Yeah, well, the island that is from, Fernandina Island, is one of the largest, pristine, unexplored islands in the world. And so, she's been hiding there undetected for a really long time.

CC: How much of a shock was when she was discovered?

EJ: Oh, it was such a shock. I mean, there had been rumours over the decades that perhaps there were still some tortoises on Fernandina Island, but nothing concrete. So in 2019, when they found her, it was truly amazing.

CC: I like the idea of the tortoise rumour mill. [chuckling]

EJ: Yup!

CC: That's a good one! Tell me, when she was discovered, how did it happen?

EJ: There was actually a television show that goes around looking for extinct species to see if they really are. And they managed to find Fernanda.

CC: So, instant celebrity, basically.

EJ: Yeah, absolutely. Well, she is well on her way to being a conservation icon.

CC: I like that. How was she doing when she was discovered?

EJ: She was in a little bit of rough shape. She's estimated to be about 50 years old, but she's very small. They thought that her growth was probably stunted because she was in a very small patch of habitat, so she didn't have access to a lot of resources. And all the paths out of that particular area were blocked by flows of lava.

CC: What does small mean when we're talking about a giant tortoise?

EJ: I mean, a fully-grown female giant tortoise is probably approaching a metre. And she's probably closer to half a metre.

CC: So, relatively small when she was discovered. Relatively. How is she doing now?

EJ: She's doing great. So she is in captivity at the Galapagos National Park Breeding Center. And so, she has a lovely bit of habitat where she is safe and well taken care of.

CC: Now, she only has one known relative. What can you tell us about that tortoise?

EJ: So, the only other tortoise that has ever been found on Fernandina Island was found in 1906. There was an expedition by the California Academy of Sciences, and they visited all the Galapagos Islands, collecting all sorts of specimens for their museum. And when they visited Fernandina Island, they only found one tortoise. And so, this tortoise was collected and was given, you know, its own species name. So it's Chelonoidis phantasticus, the fantastic giant tortoise. And this was the only tortoise ever found on Fernandina until more than 100 years later, Fernanda was found.

CC: So, how do we think we got from this 1906 tortoise to Fernanda? What happened in the… in the interim?

EJ: Well, this is the great mystery of the island. So, it's probable that, you know, a couple of hundred years ago, there were more tortoises on the island because there obviously was some sort of population there that evolved to become their own species. And then, by 1906, perhaps they were declining. And we know that there have been multiple, very large volcanic eruptions on Fernandina Island. And so, I think this is how the population has declined so much, so they are so rare that there is now just one known individual left.

CC: She was discovered… rediscovered in 2019, and it took until now to publish the research showing that she is, in fact, a fantastic giant tortoise. I wonder what that felt like for you to actually make that connection?

EJ: Yeah, well, the years in between were sort of agony, so we got caught up by requiring special permits to transport the blood out of the Galapagos. And then COVID hit. And then when we did get it, it was just so exciting to get the data back and to run that first analysis that said, you know, she really is genetically similar to this 1906 tortoise. And that together, they are distinct from all of the other species of Galapagos tortoise.

CC: What about the prospect that she has other relatives on the island?

EJ: So there are signs that there are perhaps some other tortoises on the island. Again, these are not the most concrete signs. So again, maybe some tortoise scat, some evidence of vegetation trampling. And there are more expeditions planned for the future. But it's just really difficult terrain to search for these tortoises. And so, it's not an easy task.

CO: If she is actually the last of her kind, what happens to her?

EJ: Because her home island is an active volcano, it's not all that safe for her to be there. And so she will probably stay at the captive breeding centre in the Galapagos.

CC: And when she does eventually pass on, does that mean that the species is considered extinct again?

EJ: Yeah. So there's a special term for these types of organisms. So if they are the last member of their species, they are called the endlings. But if she is only 50 years old, she probably has at least a good another 100 years to enjoy her life of luxury in captivity.

CC: And icon status.

EJ: And icon status, which is remarkably similar to another Galapagos giant tortoise you might have heard I've called Lonesome George. So he was the of a species from a different island, from Pinta Island. And he lived out his days and passed away in 2012.

CC: Well, we do hope that Fernanda has a long remaining rest of her life and that she gets to enjoy it.

EJ: Yeah. I mean, it… it seems a little grim, but really, she's been taken out of what probably was kind of a difficult situation on the island. And she is now, you know, being revered as a conservation icon. So I think it's a good news story for her.

CC: It's a really remarkable story. Thank you so much for introducing us to Fernanda.

EJ: Thanks for having me.

CH: That was Evelyn Jensen. We reached her in Newcastle, England. And you can find more on that story on our webpage at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[“Macavity” as sung by Taylor Swift]

Cats Response To Catnip

Speaker 5: Covets. He's a mystery.

Speaker 3: Cat. He's called the hidden, for he's.

Speaker 1: The master.

Speaker 3: Criminal who can defy the odds. He's the. A Scotland Yard. Fly squads just. They reach the scene of crime, the cavities.

Speaker 5: Not them.

CH: From the movie "Cats", that's Taylor Swift as Bombalurina, who kidnaps the Jellicle Cats with the help of her sidekicks, Mungojerrie, Rumpleteazer, and Griddlebone. And… what? I don't understand anything about what I just said. What is happening in "Cats"? Sorry: no, I told myself I wouldn't get bogged down talking about the "Cats" movie musical. I need to talk about cats, the actual cats. Although we chose that musical number for a reason: it's the one where Bombalurina and her cronies drug the -- do I have to say it? fine, fine: the Jellicle Cats with catnip. And animal behaviour researcher Masao Miyazaki actually cites that scene when discussing his recent research on catnip. We already knew there was a compound in that plant that causes the release of endorphins in cats. We also knew that same compound -- nepetalactone -- is an extremely powerful insect repellent. But in a new study, Mr. Miyazaki and his team reveal evidence that, when cats lick, chew, or roll around on a catnip plant, and damage its leaves, they release ten times as much of the repellent compound. Which means cats aren't just getting high -- they're protecting themselves from insects. It's fascinating research. And it's impressively clear. Unlike "Cats" the movie. Like, the Jellicle Cats go to the Jellicle Ball so one can be named the Jellicle Choice. But what is "Jellicle"? I mean, what is going on?? No, sorry. Sorry.

[Music: Hip-hop beat]

Part 2: Food Labels Ranchers, Double Plane Seats

Food Labels Ranchers

Guest: Ryder Lee

CH: Coming soon to a grocery store near you: warning labels on some food products. Health Canada has proposed putting labels on foods high in sodium, sugar, and saturated fats, to help consumers make healthy choices. Under the plan, one of the products that would carry a warning is ground beef. But dairy and eggs would be exempt. And that has ranchers crying foul. Ryder Lee is a rancher and the CEO of the Saskatchewan Cattlemen's Association. We reached him in Regina.

CC: Ryder, what's your beef with these warning labels?

RYDER LEE: Well, it's really a warning against home cooking. And we don't think that's what Health Canada was trying to achieve here. But they're singling out ground beef, and that's not good for us.

CC: We know that there are some exemptions in this plan for whole foods, unsweetened fruit, which is naturally high in sugar, dairy and eggs, which do, of course, contain saturated fat. But ground beef and ground pork are not exempt. Has anyone in Ottawa explained the logic of that to you?

RL: No, that's… that's really what's missing is some consistency, both, you know, domestically with… with other whole foods, like you mentioned. And then internationally, other countries that I went forward with pack labelling like this have exempted ground beef. So, we don't understand why the departure on either front?

CC: At the same time, it is true that regular ground beef has a high level of saturated fat. So the label will be correct, will it not?

RL: Well, correct in the raw product. But you know, what we cook and what we consume is generally different, you know? Whether you drain your faster, skim it off if you had it in the slow cooker, that's another inconsistency there, too.

CC: But I suppose the government can't predict how people are going to… whether or not they're going to be skimming off the fat, right? They can only really speak to the product itself.

RL: I guess. Yeah, there's… there's as consumed and what's in the store. But again, you're going to the consistency piece of some of these other things that are high and in the products that they're warning about, and they're getting an exemption. So, the consistency isn't there. And these are components of home cooking, wholesome meals that my understanding is the goal is to have more of that and get away from ultra-processed foods, which I think is the target here of high sodium, high sugar, you know, preservative style things. That's not ground beef. We need more simple, natural ingredient meals.

CC: The fundamental objective, as I understand it, though, is for people to make informed choices, right? Health Canada is saying that Canadians need to reduce the amount of sugar, sodium saturated fats in their diets because they're risk factors for obesity, hypertension, chronic diseases. What's wrong with that?

RL: Well, we've also got problems in our population with iron deficiency, vitamin B12 deficiency, getting enough protein and getting good nutrients with the calories we consume. And what beef delivers on an affordable, simple basis, that nutrient-dense calorie load is what we need more of. Some of the health problems we're seeing aren't corresponding with people eating more meat. They're corresponding with people eating more junk food and more highly-processed foods. So, if we're looking to combat some of the problems we're facing, it's not because people are eating more beef. So, I'd say they're missing the mark there.

CC: What do you think the impact of these labels is going to be?

RL: Well, it's hard to know, but there's a couple of things. I mean, you know, any time you introduce uncertainty in the supermarket, that's not helpful. People are pressed for time. And aside from a few classes here and there in health class, you don't… you don't learn a lot about shopping. So, that can have an effect on people, what they buy and the demand here at home. It's also really giving permission to, I think, our trading partners to say, oh, look, even their own government is putting a warning on this product. We probably shouldn't import that. And we export about half of what we produce in beef. So, giving our export partners that kind of tool is… is not a good idea.

CC: Well, at the same time, obviously, we're talking about… forgive me, but essentially the same beef, ground beef all around the world, right? There… there isn't anything fundamentally different. It's… it's just the label that you're worried about, right?

RL: It is. It's giving that tool for protectionists to use to try to keep our product from coming in and competing with theirs.

CC: You are a rancher yourself. What do you imagine might be the impact on your family's operation?

RL: Well, again, you've got to dial it all up. But if we're reducing demand for Canadian beef, it goes straight to the bottom line. And we're already in a hard time right now with the weather we've had over the last five years and the cost of everything going up really fast, and the revenue side being flat over a lot of years. So, we're already stressed to be able to make a go of it in the beef production business. Our government taking a swipe at our product this way and singling out this way is disappointing. And hopefully, we can get them to change their mind.

CC: Do you imagine, though, that this is going to what? Potentially hurt business or force prices to be driven up? Like, what do you see as the ripple effect of this?

RL: Yeah, I foresee it hurting business. Something that casts doubt in your consumer's mind is something you work very hard on to build confidence and certainty in them. And when that gets eroded, that will impact your ability to sell to people. So, we don't think the government should be doing that in this case. Especially when they're providing exemptions for lots of other products that are in the grocery store that are single-ingredient, natural products.

CC: The provincial government in Saskatchewan sent a letter to the federal government asking for an exemption for ground beef and pork. The Alberta government has as well. What effect do you think that will have?

RL: Well, you know, they're important voices. And hopefully, they'll get due consideration. You know, decision-makers listen to voters, but they also listen to their colleagues as well. And… and the advice they get, I'm glad to see that support from my government, from our opposition parties as well, calling for this exemption. So it's not just… just our group calling for this.

CC: If that doesn't work, is there a next step in trying to fight this?

RL: Well, you have to see what… what the ground is before you decide what steps you're going to take.

CC: Fair enough. Thank you very much for your time today.

RL: Yeah, thank you. Have a great day.

CC: You, too.

CH: Ryder Lee is a rancher and the CEO of the Saskatchewan Cattlemen's Association. He was in Regina. Health Canada sent us a statement explaining why ground beef is not exempt. It says that exemptions are only given when the food is already exempt from displaying a nutrition facts table. For example, raw whole cuts of meat. And when there is evidence that the food provides a protective effect on health, including fruits, vegetables and milk. You can find more on that story on our website: www.cbc.ca/AIH.

[Music: Ambient]

FOA: Jose Kusugak Stamp

CH: Jose Kusugak is remembered as a celebrated Nunavut leader, and a defender of Inuit rights and culture. And this week, Canada Post unveiled a new stamp to commemorate his legacy. Mr. Kusugak played a critical role in the creation of Nunavut in 1999, and was heavily involved in land claims negotiations with the federal government and the Northwest Territories. He was also an educator and broadcaster. He died in 2011 at the age of 60. Jose Kusugak spoke with former As It Happens host Mary Lou Finlay on February 15, 1999 -- the day voters in Nunavut went to the polls to elect the territory's first government. Here's part of that interview, from our archives.

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MARY LOU FINLAY: Mr. Kusugak, do you have a sense of history in the making today?

JOSE KUSUGAK: Yeah. You know, I went down to Ottawa in 1970. I was 20 years old when they asked me if I'd like to work on the land claims, and I excitedly said Yes. And then what is it? So it's been a few years since then. And this is about it, what we're working towards all this time.

MLF: And you have a feeling that this is the realization of a personal dream?

JK: I think so. I think I was just on my way to work. Listening to the radio, they were interviewing and talking to different Inuit, and it all feels the same way. They were all lining up voting already, and they all feel like this is going to make the difference in their lives and so on. So it is a quite exciting day. The last government was actually developed in the sixties and early seventies by pretty well putting… sending an airplane up with bureaucrats from Ottawa.

MLF: Yeah.

JK: I think the people from this region at least has always felt that it was still a foreign government, and it was hard for people in this region to give them pure legitimacy. After all, Inuit were really never involved in that original process. I think the feeling for this new political court that people feel that they've been authors or at least a third of the authors for the development of the new government. So they feel like they're a real part of… part of this history.

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CH: From our archives, that was Nunavut leader Jose Kusugak speaking with Mary Lou Finlay. This week, Canada Post unveiled a new stamp to honour Mr. Kusugak.

[Music: Glassy guitar riff]

Double Plane Seats

Guest: Alejandro Núñez Vicente

CH: Depending on who you ask, it's a revolutionary new way to fly economy. Or a new layer of hell. This week, Alejandro Núñez Vicente is unveiling the first full-scale prototype of his double-decker airplane seat. A year ago, Mr. Vicente was a university student working on the design for a school project. Now he's at the world's biggest aviation show wowing -- and horrifying -- people with what he says is the future of air travel. We reached him in Hamburg, Germany.

CC: Alejandro, what do people say to you when they actually get to sit in one of these seats?

ALEJANDRO NÚÑEZ VICENTE: Well, we are actually quite impressed by the… by the reaction of the public. We have seen that many people has actually been coming to see the prototype after reading the news, the news that were published a couple of days ago. So, we are actually impressed with the reaction of people. It looks… from the outside, it looks a little bit more claustrophobic than it is. But when you sit in it, most of the people change their minds, actually.

CC: Okay. I will say less claustrophobic is not selling it for me, but I want you to walk me through this process. Let's imagine that I walk onto the plane. My ticket says that I have a lower seat. What does that look like?

ANV: Well, the ticket wouldn't say that you have a lower seat unless you have requested it, okay? So what we're offering in the economy class is three different types of seats. One is the upper row. The other one is the lower row. And then you would have the current economy class seats on the window side, okay? So this chair long is just meant to be placed in the central row of the aircraft. So imagine you have the lower row. That means that you want to sit down on the… on the lower role of the economy class seat. And you just want to have more space for your legs, and you want to be able to stretch them fully, such as the name suggests, then chose the economy seat.

CC: Okay, so I can stretch out my legs. How much room do I have, though, between, like, my upper body and the seat that is in front of me? Like, sort of in my… in my lap, essentially, right?

ANV: Not really. So the distance between your head and the… and the monument in front of you is actually the same distance that you get nowadays in an economy seat. So the distance is not really the difference. The only thing is that above that distance, there is another passenger sitting, and he can recline slightly on top of you. But that's a trade-off at the end of the day because if you are seated on the lower row, you can fully stretch your legs, and that makes it a little bit better. So you have to consider that you're flying economy class and that it's already bad as it is right now. [CC chuckles] So what we're trying to offer is… is passengers the possibility to stretch their legs fully, something that has never been done before.

CC: But I just want to seize on what you are saying that the trade-off is and help people understand that people can recline slightly on top of you. Why is that a worthwhile trade-off?

ANV: Well, I would say it's a good trade-off because when you're sleeping, you don't see anyone on top of you. Right? So, this seat is meant for sleeping. Actually, if you look at research, most passengers, when they go on a long-haul flight in the economy class, they are just trying to sleep as much as possible to cut down the flying time or the travelling time. And that's something very hard to achieve right now in the economy seats that we have nowadays, right? So, if you're not claustrophobic, you would choose the lower row because you can fully stretch your legs, and you can actually recline 125 degrees, which is 15 degrees more than you can actually do now on the economy class.

CC: Okay.

ANV: This is not cutting down the offer that we have today. It's just improving it so that people with longer legs can actually feel better in the economy class.

CC: Let's talk about the upper level. We've focused a lot on the lower level. What would that experience be like?

ANV: Okay. The upper level is more like an SUV experience, so you're higher than the rest of the passengers. That means that you have a better visual on the overall of the cabin. That gives you a sense or a feeling of amplitude that we can translate as the SUV experience because you're higher up.

CC: There's also no overhead bins, if I understand it, in this model, right?

ANV: Yes.

CC: So how close are people's heads potentially to the ceiling of the plane?

ANV: So the ceiling is normally around 2.5 metres, 2.4 metres. And the structure, your head would be located at around two metres high, so you still have half a metre on top of you to stand up.

CC: You say a lot of people are surprised that when they sit in the seats, this is a more roomy experience than they expected. If I… if I understand, though, from what I've been reading about this, you basically are getting like two really strong reactions, right? Either people really love it, or they're not sold on it. Tell me about that?

ANV: Yes. So basically, you have the people that criticize just by looking at the pictures, which is fine. I understand in the pictures it doesn't it doesn't really portray how it is in real life. And then you have the reaction of people that actually sit on it. So we've had people from seat manufacturing companies, we've had people from airlines. When they all come and sit on the… on the lower row, which is the one that is causing all the drama, they actually feel that there's more space than in the current economy class seat. So yeah, all the people that criticize are the ones that haven't tried it. But I invite any… any of those that are criticizing it without knowing it. Please come by, sit down on the prototype. I will give them a full… a full prototype experience if they want to, and they will change their mind.

CC: You were a student. You're designing this project. Now, you're at the world's biggest aviation show. There is the prospect that maybe one day these could actually be on airplanes. What has that been like for you?

ANV: Well, [chuckle] I've been working quite a lot on this project and to be honest, that would make me very proud. But to be honest, we have no expectations. Up to this point, as you were saying, I was a student one year ago, and this was just a dream, you know? Trying to change something that is currently a very bad experience to something that is a little bit more comfortable. So for us, we are trying to do that. And we understand that people will get angry about the economy, class seats of the future. But at the end of the day, if we don't try to improve that experience, airlines will just take advantage of that and try to make us fly in more and more confined spaces. So, I'm not doing it for the airlines. I'm trying to do it for the passengers, and that's something that I want everyone to know.

CC: Well, Alejandro, I admire your ambition and your good intentions, and I thank you for taking the time to talk to us about this.

ANV: Thank you so much.

CH: Alejandro Núñez Vicente designed the Chaise Longue Economy Seat. He was in Hamburg, Germany. You may have an opinion of his invention. If so, call our Talk Back line: 416-205-5687. Email us at: aih@cbc.ca or tweet us: @cbcasithappens.

[Music: Electronic]

Ron Hynes Statue

CH: Ron Hynes will forever have a place in his hometown of Ferryland. This weekend, the community will unveil an eight-foot-tall monument to the Newfoundland and Labrador musician who died in 2015. Mr. Hynes is remembered as one of the province's greatest singer-songwriters. At the time of his death, his manager Lynn Horne said he "writes tender songs, but he's a tough man." Keith Mooney chairs the Ron Hynes Commemorative Monument Committee.

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KEITH MOONEY: Well, it started off with John Haynes, a St John's artist here. He'd done the initial concept. It's not a statue as such. It's a monument. And its depiction of Ron. You'll identify Ron clearly once you see it. And there's just two structures. What John refers to as a wave/musical note behind it, and a monument depicting Ron as eight feet in height. And as one of our committee members mentioned, Ron will be overlooking Ferryland harbour.

KRISSY HOLMES: I mean, tell us a little bit about, you know, why it was so important for the community to make that known to anybody that comes into town?

KM: Ron has had a very close relationship with… with us, and I say with the Southern Shore Folk Art Council. And, you know, he's… he's come back to the Southern Shore Shamrock Festival every year he could. He's been such a phenomenal contribution to Newfoundland culture. There's a lot of reasons to erect a monument for Ron Hynes in Ferryland. And, you know, his music continues. And there's… there's a tremendous number of loyal Ron Hynes fans. And I think it's going to be, you know, people are going to want to come out and visit it, and… and… and remember his music and his poetry. And so it's… you know, we're very… very proud to do it. He had a very emotional side. I remember the children at the primary school sang "Sonny's Dream". And Ron was out standing alongside them on the sidelines. And it really, really touched him.

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CH: That was Keith Mooney from the Ron Hynes Commemorative Monument Committee in Ferryland, Newfoundland and Labrador, speaking with Krissy Holmes on The St. John's Morning Show today.

[Music: Instrumental]

Part 3: New Zealand Penguin Die Off, Washington Nazi Police

2022 Griffin Poetry Prize Winner

CH: If you were struggling to make sense of the world around you, and asked Tolu Oloruntoba for his advice, he might prescribe poetry. The Nigerian Canadian writer and poet practiced medicine for six years, and he says that life experience informs his poems, which is apparently a prescription for success, because Dr. Oloruntoba just took home the $65,000 Griffin Poetry Prize. He won the award for his debut collection, The Junta of Happenstance -- which explores the immigrant experience, family dysfunction, and diasporic lives. He spoke with the CBC about how it felt to learn about his win while he was getting his young kids ready for school this morning.

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TOLU OLORUNTOBA: I wasn't expecting any awards at all for this book. Getting the book published was the achievement for me. So everything that's come after has just been a wonderful bonus.

STEPHEN QUINN: For those who don't know, you are a Nigerian-Canadian, and you practised medicine for six years. Tell me about where your life experiences come into play when you're writing your poems?

TO: Oh, I think that everything that I've gone through sort of informs what I write. It informs my perspective. It gives me a lot of material, so to speak. So I then try to, you know, transform that and try to make an independent art object, you know, informed by my experiences. And so, everything sort of goes into the... the recipe. You know, everything is useful. It might not be useful immediately, but eventually, there's some way that I can deploy the things that I've been through. I think I actually write just for myself. I'm glad that people read what I write. [both chuckle] But… but… but I write to… to… to explore my thoughts and to understand what's going on inside my head.

SQ: Why is… is poetry your… your media of choice here?

TO: I think poetry helps us to approximate the unsayable. You know, when one has to write fiction or write non-fiction, you have to have a sort of linear spot most times. But poetry helps us just mush things together and, you know, find a path between different things that are hard to express. And then, the reader comes along and, you know, makes their own interpretation because they add to the poem, and that gives them a different interpretation. And so, it's an art form that can go in multiple directions at once. And, yeah, that saying the unsayable and how things are… are interconnected are my interests and strengths in poetry. So it's why I've stuck to it.

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CH: Tolu Oloruntoba is the winner of the 2022 Griffin Poetry Prize. He spoke with the CBC's Stephen Quinn today.

[Music: Percussive jazz]

New Zealand Penguin Die Off

Guest: Isabella Godbert

CH: It's shocking to see hundreds of dead birds washed up on the beach. But in New Zealand's Northland, that shock has given way to other emotions -- since it's become common to find dozens of little blue penguins lying on the shore. One New Zealander walked up Ninety Mile Beach and spotted 75 dead birds over a 10-kilometre radius. And then 71 the next day. Fifty-nine more the day after that. The die-off is partly the result of a natural phenomenon -- that's been amplified by climate change. Isabella Godbert is a volunteer with Birds New Zealand. She joined us from Kerikeri, New Zealand.

CC: Isabella, before we get into what's happening on the beaches near you, tell us about the little blue penguin itself. What does it look like? It's pretty cute, from the pictures I've seen?

ISABELLA GODBERT: Yes, it's a little penguin who… they swim around the waters near here. And you see them swimming, just little bodies in the water, but who dive a lot. And they come up, and very often, if you are quite near them, they go bawk! Just little noses. And they also nest on… they nest on the shore. So they have to come ashore a lot in little holes or the beach that we've been going where they've been coming ashore a lot, they… they cross the beach, climb over sandhills, and then they nest in the forest behind there.

CC: When we say little blue penguin, how… how big are they?

IG: How… how tall are they? About 30… 30 centimetres, yes.

CC: Okay. Kind of an indigo colour.

IG: Or less than that. Yes, quite little. And the thing that's unusual is that they live in warmer waters than the other penguins, so they all run using the coast.

CC: Okay. Now, you mentioned the fact that they have been coming ashore. In fact, there are reports of hundreds of penguins winding up dead near Ninety Mile Beach in the north of New Zealand.

IG: Yes.

CC: So describe to me what… what you have seen and what some of the people you know have seen?

IG: Well, we… we walked on Ninety Mile Beach looking and counting the birds, live and dead birds. And normally, we might see one or two little blue penguins washed ashore who just die at sea. But the last time we went, we saw 68, which is a lot of birds. And what we thought was sort of extra horrible was that some of them were still alive, but you could see that they were not well.

CC: Oh, dear!

IG: Yeah.

CC: You obviously, if you are involved in a group like Birds New Zealand, I imagine, love birds. What was it like? What went through your mind when you came across a scene like that?

IG: Well, we realized something was… was wrong, and it was just very sad, yes. Because they shouldn't be dying in that number. But it does… it has happened in the past, so it's not impossible. But this is worse, I think, than any time that's happened for penguins in the past.

CC: What do we know about what is causing this mass die-off of the little blue penguins?

IG: Well, from what I've read that the scientists are saying it's because the water has got much warmer. We have… at the moment, I mean, this is mid-winter, and our water near here is 17 degrees, which is, you know, quite warm. But in the summer, it was way up. And it means that the nutrients stay low down. And apparently, the sprats are swimming down to the nutrients. So the penguins just can't keep diving enough to get food.

CC: So essentially, they're dying of malnutrition?

IG: That's right.

CC: You talk about the temperatures. How do you see this being connected to climate change?

IG: Well, it's much warmer than it has been. We've had more easterly winds this year, and that's made it warmer. But… but that's, again, climate change.

CC: You've been doing beach patrols for about 30 years now. Does this compare to anything you've ever seen before?

IG: No, it doesn't compare with penguins. We do… we have had other what we call beach wrecks, when thousands of birds come ashore unknown. And sometimes, it can be a disease, but sometimes I think they don't really know why. But this… for the penguins, this is certainly unusual.

CC: With that sense of the scope of this. I mean, it's certainly not just you finding these birds. There are many other reports.

IG: No. Yes.

CC: What do you… what do you make of… of all of it?

IG: Well, what can one make? One just… it's one thing you feel helpless, don't you? Because any recovery is going to be slow.

CC: And… and what what would a recovery look like, do you think?

IG: Well, [chuckling] if we go back to our old weather. But, yes, I don't know. Yes, maybe… they… they may get aclimatized, but they can't really get too acclimatized when they can't reach their food. So, it is very likely that we won't have penguins up here anymore. They will be further south.

CC: How do you feel about it?

IG: Oh, very sad. Yes, it's part of being up here. We've got little penguins. And we go sailing in the bay and expect to see little penguins popping up.

CC: Do you see this as just part of nature, your relationship with nature, or do you see something more sinister here?

IG: I think there's more sinister here. I mean, normal… we do see dead birds here, which is just part of nature. So you don't get worked up and say, oh, dear, I fear a penguin has died in clearwater. Some die. And what happens when they die is they get washed ashore. But… but this is different because there's so many of them, and that the scientists say that there's a good reason for it.

CC: Well, it's a very unfortunate story, but we thank you for telling us.

IG: It is. [chuckling] Lovely, thank you.

CC: Thanks, Isabella.

CH: That was Isabella Godbert. She's a volunteer with Birds New Zealand.

[Music: Spanish guitar]

Sudbury Teen Pilot

CH: Isabel Fredette of Sudbury, Ontario, could fly a plane before she could drive a car. It's not that she didn't want her driver's licence. It's that the law wouldn't allow it. She was just too young. But the law did allow her to work her way through different pilot certifications as she worked her way through high school. And now, at 18 years old and freshly graduated, she's getting ready to take her place as the youngest commercial pilot working for True North Airlines -- a private charter airline in Northern Ontario. As she told our colleagues at CBC Sudbury, a love of flying runs in the family.

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ISABEL FREDETTE: In Sudbury, they do like these pilots lunches and on Wednesdays. And ever since I was… it's all like kind of the older guys of the community. But ever since I was young, my dad used to take me. He'd pull me out of school and we'd go to lunch together. And then I'd just hear all their stories. And that really got just me, like, so interested, I'd say. And that's kind of where it all started. And then we'd go to the air show in Oshkosh. It's like the biggest air show there is. It's one week out of the summer, and then when you're there, you're just, like, in love with airplanes. I know when I decided to become a pilot. My dad, he was just practising doing touch and goes through these narrows, and there was just… he was like… because it was kind of glassy, which is like when the water is just perfect glass. There's just straight reflection, which is, like, the… not the most scary, but the one that you have to have the most respect for when you're coming in on water just because you can't tell where the ground is. But he was practicing that next to this island. And I was like… I just knew at that point that I would become a pilot, and it was going to happen. [chuckle] Yeah, you know when you get that feeling. And then I remember everybody, every pilot remembers their first solo because that's the first time you're in the airplane, and there's no safety net. There's no instructor to fix all your screw-ups. I remember I actually did it on skis here. I did a few… like a lot of different things. I did it on skis, and I took off, and I just… there was these birds, and I just looked up, and I was like, oh my gosh, I'm doing this. And then I was just overwhelmed with joy. And then only when I turned the crosswind, I was like, oh, now I have to land, and there's no screwing up.

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CH: That was Isabel Fredette of Sudbury, Ontario, speaking to our colleague Angela Gemmill.

[Music: Industrial]

Washington Nazi Police

Guest: Max Patashnik

CH: Two years ago, Derek Kammerzell -- the Assistant Chief of Police in Kent, Washington -- put the insignia of high-ranking Nazi SS officer on his office door. Today, he's out of a job. And he's a millionaire. City officials in Kent, which is just outside Seattle, Washington, originally suspended Mr. Kammerzell for two weeks without pay. But after backlash from the Jewish community, they pushed him to resign since there are laws preventing him from being fired. He refused. And instead, entered negotiations with the city -- eventually agreeing to more than 1.5 million dollars in compensation. That news doesn't sit well with Max Patashnik. She's the director of government and community relations at the Jewish Federation of Greater Seattle -- which was the target of a fatal attack in 2008. We reached Ms. Patashnik in Seattle.

CC: Ms. Patashnik, what do you say to the fact that a member of the police force can put a Nazi insignia on his office door and still leave his job with a $1.5 million payout?

MAX PATASHNIK: Well, I would say it certainly does not feel like justice. When the punishment of a police chief for promoting Nazi symbols is essentially a million and a half dollar payout, what does that tell us about our system? To me, it says that our system is… is broken.

CC: Why was he not simply fired?

MP: There's a lot of complexity around state labour laws, as well as laws that have created really strong police unions. And so, because the initial findings from the employment law firm who investigated former Assistant Police Chief Kammerzell found that the case of the city would not be strong enough to fire him. That if it went to court, he would… he would secure his job and come back. And then the secondary reason is they gave him a really insufficient punishment at first, which was a two-week suspension, I believe, with pay. And after having done that, their options were limited because of double jeopardy.

CC: I want everyone to understand what it is exactly that happened here. This wasn't a swastika that he put on his door. What was it?

MP: No, it was the insignia of a particular type of SS officer of general in the German army that he posted on his door outside his door at the Kent Police office, and then also made jokes about how it should be added to his business cards and that maybe it should be added to their police uniforms. There were quite a number of other accusations that were investigated by the employment law firm, including making jokes about the Holocaust several times, joking that his grandfather died in the Holocaust because he fell from a guard tower while drunk, showing pictures of himself with his facial hair shaved and a Hitler style moustache, giving a Heil Hitler salute. So over the years, as the investigation wore on, there were a number of other things that were revealed in addition to this insignia that he put outside his office door.

CC: I want to stay with the insignia for a minute because I want to look at what his explanation was. Assistant Chief Kammerzell told an investigator that he did not realize that this was a Nazi insignia. It was, for him, a joke riffing on his nickname of the German general that had been given to him before. How credible do you find that?

MP: Well, I probably side with the investigative firm, which said that it was completely uncredible. He apparently had an obsession with the show "Man in the High Castle", which, as you may know, portrays what would have happened if the results of World War Two had been different and the Axis forces had one. And so, for somebody with such an obsession with that show, and this was one of the places he also said that it came from, they said it was completely implausible that he would not have an idea of what it meant.

CC: Obviously, there has been incredibly strong reaction to him receiving this payout. Your local NBC affiliate quoted the principal of the Seattle Hebrew Academy saying, I'm just wondering how I'm going to explain to children as an educator that someone is going to be given all this money for doing something wrong. How can anyone see that as something other than rewarding bad behaviour? What do you say to that?

MP: I would say that I agree with Rivy. She's an incredible educator, by the way. And it's a really hard thing to talk about in our community. I've been getting emails, phone calls, people I've been talking to in person who have said, like, how… yes, how does this convey any other message that we are rewarding this really awful behaviour? You know, the logical part of me, the part that's been, I think, working with this city in a really productive capacity since this incident became public, knows that there were limited options, there are legal barriers. And so that's the logical part of my brain. But again, this… the justice part for our community and for other communities too that feel victimized and impacted by this, it doesn't feel very good. And it points to the system that we have that is broken. Yes, this time, it was the Jewish community that was most acutely impacted, but in the future, it could be any other marginalized group. You know what, if it was a noose or what if it was another hate symbol? It says, we have a lot of work to do.

CC: You've told me a lot about what members of the community are telling you, but how do you feel personally?

MP: Personally? It's really hurtful. My community, my… my synagogue, we rely really heavily on strong relationships with law enforcement to help protect us from violent anti-Semitic attacks. Things that have happened, like the one at the Tree of Life Synagogue in Pittsburgh. We had our own mass-shooting at the Jewish Federation in Seattle in 2006. It was just a total, like, gut-punch in the stomach that somebody who our community relies very deeply on for our physical safety would do something like this. And so, I found it really jarring. I would also say I have been privileged as well to work closely with the city since this has happened. And I've met some really amazing people, the mayor and her dedication and the leadership of her team to address this explicitly with the Jewish community. And I would also say the leadership in the race and equity department to make sure that this is not a one-off issue, but that anti-Semitism is addressed holistically, and it is really a turning point and a learning opportunity for the city. I would say that that makes me feel much better because hate is learned, and hate can be unlearned. So, if there's anything positive that can come from this, it's really that future learning and to make sure something like this doesn't happen again.

CC: Max, thank you so much for your time today.

MP: Oh, it's my pleasure, Catherine. Thank you.

CH: Max Patashnik is a director at the Jewish Federation of Greater Seattle. We reached her in Seattle.

[Music: Acoustic guitar]

MB Cree Musical

CH: It's the time of year when students across the country will be gathering for end-of-year performances. And for Grade 3 and 4 students at Arthur E. Wright elementary school in Winnipeg, tonight's performance will be pretty special. For the past few months, the students have been rehearsing a musical called "Peynikamun Nici." That's Cree for "Sing With Me, My Friend." And the show itself is a collaboration between friends. One a music teacher. The other, a Cree Elder. They believe it's the first time a public school musical has featured Cree stories and songs in Manitoba.

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