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The AIH Transcript for May 20th, 2022

ROBYN BRESNAHAN: Hello, I'm Robyn Bresnahan.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight

RB: Chilly reception. The Trudeau government bans two Chinese tech giants from its 5G network -- and our guest says that decision is a net win for national security.

CH: His cup runneth over. When a Toronto café owner was viciously attacked, he thought he might have to close his beloved tea shop. But his customers rallied behind the man who gave them a free place to meet, perform, and make art.

RB: A hero's welcome. The grandson of a Holocaust survivor and Jewish resistance fighter tells us what it was like to travel to Amsterdam to receive a medal for his grandfather's bravery, decades after his death.

CH: Power to the peeper. A cyclist is recovering after winning a big race this week -- not from pedalling to victory, but from taking the full force of a prosecco cork to the eye.

RB: Do Look Back. One of Bob Dylan's collaborators tells us another Bob was integral to Dylan's success -- and tonight he's paying tribute to his longtime friend Bob Neuwirth.

CH: And… what goes over wraps is under wraps. Engineering students have created an edible tape to hold tortillas together, so you can safely stuff your face, when you've overstuffed your burrito. But they're keeping their lips sealed about some of the details.

CH: As It Happens, the Friday edition. Radio that fears they may be tempting fajita.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Huawei Ban, Winnipeg Holocaust Medal, Bob Neuwirth Obit

Huawei Ban

Guest: Richard Fadden

CH: Ottawa has banned Huawei -- and the Chinese government is not happy about it. Yesterday, after a years-long review, the federal government announced that equipment from the Chinese telecom giant would be barred from the next generation of Canada's communications network because of national security concerns. Beijing responded today by accusing Canada of "political manipulation" aimed at, quote, "suppressing Chinese companies." Unquote. Richard Fadden is a former director of CSIS. He's been calling for a Huawei ban for years. We reached Mr. Fadden in Ottawa.

RB: Mr. Fadden, China says the Trudeau government's ban on Huawei is political manipulation. How would you describe it?

RICHARD FADDEN: Well, I would expect them to say nothing less. But after the other Five Eyes and a goodly number of our NATO allies have taken the decision to ban Huawei and ZTE, what we hear from them is exactly just that, they're maintaining their position, but they give no importance to us. They were pursuing our national interest in Banning Weiwei and ZTE. And I think no more, no less.

RB: What do you mean pursuing the national interest?

RF: Mr. Champagne and Mr. Mendocino has suggested that our national security was at risk if we continued to allow the two companies to participate in the development of our 5G network. So they were pursuing the national interest and national security by denying those two companies access to our 5G network.

RB: Huawei's Canadian spokesperson, though, Alykhan Velshi, says the Canadian government has failed to, quote, give any specific example about the national security threat that Huawei poses. How would you describe the risk?

RF: I think that to put it in a… in short, these two companies are Chinese-owned, they're Chinese-controlled, they're Chinese-operated. Chinese law is very clear that any Chinese company has to respond to direction from the national security organizations of the Chinese state. There is ample evidence around the planet that China has a pretty aggressive information collection program going. I don't think Mr… I don't think Alykhan Velshi is in any position to say that we have to demonstrate any violation. What I think the government is saying is that there is the potential if all of this equipment is installed in our communications network, that these companies, in response to the Chinese intelligence program, they may install backdoors that would allow them to collect information. That is the risk to the national security. I don't think anyone has said that they've… they're doing it today or they have done it yesterday. It is the risk, and it's the same position taken by the United Kingdom government, the U.S. government and the Australian government. So, I think we're in fairly safe company here.

RB: But when it comes to what kind of information could be at risk, is it the information of you and me and, you know, what we are posting and that kind of thing? Or is it top secret information that they're worried about?

RF: Well, I think it's a range. I mean, I don't really think that, you know, your communications and mine are going to be at the top of their priority. But if you have access to the 5G network, there are some extraordinarily powerful algorithms that allow them to select what they collect should they decide to do that. I suspect they would aim for diplomatic communications, military and security communications. But more tellingly, in some ways, since they have a very aggressive collection program against private sectors, they would try and collect information about the 10 or 12 critical structures that we've identified as at risk. You know, things like our financial systems, our communications systems, our nuclear systems. Collecting this kind of information gives them, should they decide to do it, an insight to how we operate and would allow them, as they have done in other countries, to close down these systems or to control them somehow should they decide to do so because they are having an argument with the Government of Canada.

RB: Why do you think that it has taken Canada so long to make this decision?

RF: That's a very good question because Mr. Champagne, when he was making the announcement, said that, you know, one takes one time when… when the national security is at risk. I would reverse that by saying that when the national security is at risk, you should act swiftly. Having said that, I think the government did not want to risk antagonizing the Chinese government while the two Michaels were still being held by them. The initial study that was announced by the government started before the two Michaels were taken into custody. I don't really understand the argument that they had to have a long study because, you know, our people were studying it for a long time. We have access to the views of the U.K., the U.S., Australia and others. I just think that the two Michaels, Ms. Meng and a variety of things, including a general desire to avoid antagonizing China, probably prompted them to not make an early decision. You know, and in practical terms, I think most people could read the tea leaves in seeing that eventually, we would have to ban Huawei and ZTE from our networks. So as I understand it, our very large companies have all… had decided some time ago not to make use of Huawei and ZTE. So by not making a decision in some manner of speaking quickly, they were… they were implicitly making a decision that the two companies… that our major companies saw coming.

RB: Do you think that China is going to retaliate in any way for this decision?

RF: That's the $54,000 question, isn't it? I think that it's relatively unlikely. And if they do, it will be relatively light, mostly because they certainly were expecting this to happen. And, you know, they've done… all of the other Five Eyes and many NATO countries have done this. And it has not resulted in, you know, specific and harsh retaliation from China. If they signal through a, you know, particular retaliation to Canada that they're very unhappy. Is that possible? I think so. But I think we've moved beyond that. You know, they've made the statement that they don't like it. They'll probably make a few other statements. But, you know, clear, unambiguous economic retaliation? I don't think so. And I hope not.

RB: In January, you said that you hope the appointment of Jody Thomas as national security advisor to the prime minister was a sign that the Trudeau government was waking up to the threat posed by China. Is this proof to you that indeed that's happening?

RF: I don't know if it's proof, but it's encouraging because Ms. Thomas said before she was appointed that she thought that ZTE and Huawei did present a risk to the national security. So, if she was consistent after she was appointed, she would have been counselling the government that this is something that had to be done. So, proof positive? Absolutely not. But I take her appointment still today, that it was an encouraging sign.

RB: Mr. Fadden, good to talk to you today. Thank you.

CH: Richard Fadden is a former CSIS director and a former national security advisor to the prime minister. We reached him in Ottawa.

[Music: Indie rock]

Winnipeg Holocaust Medal

Guest: David Jacks

CH: David Jacks and his father just got back from Amsterdam. And they didn't go just to look at the tulips. They went so David could accept a medal from the Dutch government in honour of his late grandfather's bravery during the Second World War. Until a few years ago, Mr. Jacks didn't know a whole lot about his grandfather. He knew his father was born shortly after the war and that in the 1970s, he moved from the Netherlands to Winnipeg. Now, he has a Mobilization War Cross for his grandfather's role as a Jewish German man fighting in the Dutch resistance. We reached David Jacks in Winnipeg.

RB: David, until a few years ago, what did you know about your grandfather's experience during the Holocaust?

DAVID JACKS: Only until about five years ago, my family knew almost nothing about my grandfather's experience during the Second World War and the Holocaust. Like many folks who survived the Holocaust, he didn't say anything about it. So, it was only until about five years ago that we actually began uncovering my grandfather's heroism during the Second World War.

RB: And tell us more about that. What happened five years ago? I understand it was a phone call.

DJ: Yeah. So five… five years ago, a pair of Dutch researchers, one of whom worked with historic buildings in Amsterdam, came across a… a stack of files from… from the Second World War-era belonging to… to a Nazi. And in those files, they found that this Nazi had taken over an apartment from a Jewish family in 1943. And looking into the family, they discovered that the Jewish family that lived in that apartment was the Jacks family. That's my ancestors. And so, they… they were moved by the story of Susie Jacks, who was about 15 years old at the time of her… her murder in Sobibor concentration camp. And, you know, 15 years old is the same age as Anne Frank. So this couple were very moved by this and started doing more research and found that my father and myself and my brother are, you know, still alive as descendants of these folks who were taken away from their homes and murdered in the concentration camps. And as more and more research was done by these folks and… and ourselves, we learned more about my grandfather, who we know obviously survived the war, but we didn't know that he was a full and active participant in the Dutch resistance and… and the Jewish underground in Holland.

RB: How old would he have been?

DJ: He was, you know, between 17 and 21 years old when he was in Holland. My family's originally from Berlin, Germany, but in 1939, the family saw, you know, what was happening around them and moved to Holland, which was a neutral country. And of course, in 1940, Holland was invaded by… by the Germans. So… so, my family, who sought to escape Germany, were now still in a place where the Nazis were in power and started persecuting Jewish families.

RB: What more did you learn about some of the actions that your grandfather took?

DJ: So, like, as mentioned, my grandfather didn't talk very much about his time in the war. But the… the Dutch researchers who are now, you know, they're very close friends to us over these past five years. And we… we almost call them family [chuckle] since we don't have much of a family thanks to the… the Holocaust. And these folks have just spent so much time doing research for our family, and it was really quite moving. And so, these Dutch researchers found these small-town local histories related to the war years. And in these little histories, you know, there's maybe five copies that exist. They found, you know, contemporary to my grandfather's time in the resistance testimonies of witnesses who are also members of the resistance, who talked about some of the actions that my grandfather did. Some of those actions that my grandfather did were helping to derail German trains, helped the downed Allied airmen who, you know, crashed in the Netherlands during the war, helped them into hiding. But to escape back to the U.K. In the earlier years of his activities in the resistance, him and his resistance mate, Meyer Gotsulyak, helped the Jewish community in this one small town, helped them into hiding and into underground and to escape. He also, in the closing years of the war, participated in more sort of wartime actions in the resistance, including holding off German patrols with his machine gun, while the rest of the resistance would sort of escape behind barns. And… and then, later on, he joined what's called the Dutch Free Forces.

RB: How did you react when you found all of this out?

DJ: You know, we've always… we've always wondered about what his time in the war… and learning that he was a bona fide hero. I mean, we were excited, of course. And also, you know, it's very emotional and touching to know about that… that my grandfather was… was helping other people in such a terrible time. And, you know, he wasn't just fighting as a Jewish person in Holland. He wasn't just fighting in the resistance to liberate Holland from the Nazis. He was fighting for his right to exist as a human being, his very right to exist as a human being and as a Jewish person. So, there's two sides to his activities. One, as a… as a resistance fighter like you would imagine in the movies, and another one as a young man whose very existence is under threat as his mum and dad and his little sister were… were murdered in the gas chamber.

RB: So, after all of this, the culmination of all this knowledge seems to be your recent trip to Amsterdam, where you and your father were there to receive this award, the Mobilization War Cross, on behalf of your grandfather. What was that moment like?

DJ: It was part of the May 10th commemorations in Holland, which is a commemoration for a battle that took place in The Hague in 1940. And so, as part of a greater ceremony of remembrance. And it was really moving, there were, you know, high school kids and coming out and talking about the war heroes and… and a full military sort of parade. And just knowing that after all these years, you know, like decades and decades, knowing that my grandfather was finally being recognized for his… his heroism was really quite moving.

RB: David, you have your own kids. They're still pretty young, four and six. But what do you want them to know about their great-grandfather?

DJ: You know, we thought a lot about this. And, you know, we try to instil in our kids, you know, the… the really important lessons about treating others with respect and speaking out against discrimination and racism and anti-Semitism and Islamophobia and transphobia and homophobia and really teaching our kids and having something physical like a medal to show our kids and to so anyone else in the community who wants to see that it's the heroes who act, who are the ones who are who are rewarded, who are the ones who are recognized even all these years later.

RB: David, thanks so much for sharing the stories about your grandfather. It was really nice to talk to you.

DJ: Yeah. And I just want to thank you folks at CBC, for taking time to share this story. And… and really thanks to your listeners for… for helping us. You know, they're continuing to help bear witness to the stories of the Holocaust.

RB: Thank you. Nice to meet you over the radio.

DJ: [warm chuckle] Nice to meet you, too.

CH: We reached David Jacks in Winnipeg.

[Music: Acoustic guitar]

Bob Neuwirth Obit

Guest: David Mansfield

CH: He was a folksinger and provocateur. Impossibly cool. With big black shades and an acerbic wit. But he was also a nurturing figure -- who inspired great songwriters to take the leaps into the unknown that made them greater. Bob Neuwirth, one of music's key movers and shakers, died this week at the age of 82. He's probably best known for his long collaboration with Bob Dylan. But he also played a key role in the careers of Janis Joplin, Patti Smith, Lucinda Williams -- and the multi-instrumentalist David Mansfield, who he recruited at the age of 18 to join Bob Dylan's touring band on the infamous Rolling Thunder Tour. Which was the beginning of a lifelong friendship and artistic partnership. We reached David Mansfield at his studio in New Jersey.

RB: David, first of all, I'm so sorry for your sadness at the loss of your friend.

DAVID MANSFIELD: Thanks so much. I appreciate it.

RB: Bob Neuwirth was part of the careers of so many incredible artists Bob Dylan, Janis Joplin, Patti Smith, Lucinda Williams, just to name a few. What do you think it was about Bob that drew these people to him?

DM: It's a little mystical, but, you know, he had a gift for just creating a scene back in his younger days. And he was always at the centre of whatever was most interesting within a given radius. And he just was an amazing encourager and inspirer. I think that anyone that was starting out, that felt like they had something to say but didn't quite have the confidence to say it yet. I mean, Lucinda and any of them, he was the guy that could bring that out.

RB: What do you remember about the first time you met him?

DM: It was kind of funny. He was doing a week-long gig, which was a bit of a free for all. He had all these musicians that kept on sitting in. The band kept growing night by night, and my girlfriend stopped by to see it one night and noticed that they didn't have a violin player. It was like three million guitar players and a keyboard player. And she just told… went backstage and told Neuwirth, oh, my boyfriend plays the violin. [RB chuckles] And… and sure enough, he said, like, well, bring him by. And she dragged me by my ear the next night, waltzed me back to the toilet of a dressing room back there, and with my fiddle case, and said, you know, here's my boyfriend, you know? And he just was totally… he said, you know, something like, well, open it up and show me what you can do or something. And it was intimidating, but I did. And within 10 minutes, I was on stage with the band, which at that point I think was probably a dozen people, including T Bone Burnett and Mick Ronson. That experience that week was essentially the heart of the Rolling Thunder Revue. It became the Rolling Thunder Revue.

RB: You mentioned T Bone Burnett as well was in that band. And at that point, he was also pretty much unknown. What does it say about Bob Neuwirth that he spotted the talent in artists like yourself, like T Bone Burnett, so early?

DM: Well, that's the thing, that he is probably the smartest person I know. What can I say? He knew it when he saw it in almost any genre. There was a bit of a macho bravado of, like, you know, let's see what you have. But with such… such big-hearted encouragement and… and… and support.

RB: The enduring image many will have of Bob Neuwirth is from the Dylan documentary Don't Look Back. He's this incredibly cool character in dark shades with a cutting sense of humour.

DM: Yes!

RB: [chuckling] Can you tell us about the Bob Neuwirth that you knew?

DM: Well, the Bob Neuwirth I met was still that kind of persona. He was incredibly smart and incisive, could spot a hypocritical bone in your body, again, from a mile away. And sometimes, you know, could get pretty dark in those days. You know, just find the one thing that cut you to the quick. But I mean, my friend T Bone back then, he introduced him to me and called him his guru because he sort of said whenever Bob would sort of take him down that he was so completely right that he benefited from it. But that was also because the Bob of those days was a heavy drinker. And the second half of his life, when he became sober, he still had the same power to do all those things, but never had a mean bone in his body from that day on. That character from the Dylan documentaries completely transformed.

RB: Do you have a favourite story about Bob Neuwirth that kind of encompasses the man that you will remember him by?

DM: Hmm. Well, a sort of a humorous story. Back in the… in the bad old days, when Bob could go a little bit overboard, we were playing one night at The Bitter End, and he decided that I was some classical prodigy and I should just play a solo piece for the audience. And I was like a deer in the headlights. I didn't know what to do. And he took my reticence as meaning that the audience wasn't give me enough respect. [chuckling] And he… and he started kind of laying into them. And I froze even more, so then he told them to turn off the air conditioners because the noise was bothering me. And at that point, I just took the bull by the horns and, like, cobbled together a little improv and… and managed to… [chuckle] managed to end the ordeal. But, you know, it also… it was… it was so funny. It was so hysterical. But also, it's like it was kind of an incident with… about how much he cared. I mean, I, of course, he would do the same kind of supportive thing later on without ever embarrassing anybody. You know, when he… when he left that, you know, dark persona back, you know, in the past. That kind of… that kind of big-hearted attention didn't go away.

RB: Hmm. He had such a long career with so many interesting chapters. What do you think he was most proud of having achieved?

DM: Well, you know, I've got a lot of friends who are sort of Bobby's age. And, you know, they're going back over past projects and reissuing things on CDs and, you know, making sure that, you know, that that the public is aware of stuff they're really proud of. And that was not the way Bobby was. Like, he would be, like, most proud of the thing he was going to do next, you know? The ideas he had for a new record or for… for a new group of paintings. He, you know, he really was the guy that didn't look back.

RB: Thank you for sharing your memories of your friend.

DM: You're welcome.

RB: Nice to talk to you. Take care.

DM: Same. You take care, too. Bye.

RB: Bye-bye.

CH: That was David Mansfield -- a musician and longtime friend and collaborator of the late Bob Neuwirth. We reached Mr. Mansfield at his studio in New Jersey.

[Music: Folk]

Part 2: Chinatown Cafe, Edible Tape

Chinatown Cafe

Guest: Phillip Chan

CH: When a Toronto café owner was viciously assaulted last month, people in the community were shocked. But they saw a chance to respond to that cruelty with kindness. And to repay Phillip Chan's years of kindness as well. Mr. Chan owns Crimson Teas in Toronto's Chinatown, which was a hub for many of the area's artists, and often held workshops and poetry readings. He was in the midst of trying to reopen the café -- which he'd closed because of the pandemic -- when he was brutally attacked -- kicked repeatedly in the head. When friends and regular customers heard, they rallied to do everything they could to help keep the gathering place open. They launched a crowdfunding campaign with a target of $60,000. Within days, that goal was surpassed. We reached Phillip Chan in Toronto.

RB: Phillip, it's been just over a month now since you were assaulted. How are you doing?

PHILLIP CHAN: I guess I'm doing the best as I could. It's… it's a very slow process.

RB: Would you take us back to the day when you were attacked? Can you tell us what happened?

PC: So, I was actually working in my little tea shop in downtown Toronto. At about 3:30 in the afternoon, one young man came to my back door for a knock at the door, asked me if I could come out. As soon as I step out of the door, I realized that there were two other young… young men waiting outside. So, as soon as I step out, the second person started, you know, interrogating me, you know, what did I do the previous Thursday evening. So, I tried to explain, you know, I didn't… I have no idea. And then he started accusing me of smashing the windshield of his vehicle. And I tried… as I tried to, you know, tried to explain to the gentleman that, you know, I wouldn't do something like that. And then, I realized later on that was just to distract me so that I could… expose me to… to be… to be assaulted by a third man who was standing there.

RB: Do you know in the end whether the attack was about money? Was it racism? Do you have any clue?

PC: I would say it's revenge, for sure. Racism, I… I don't want to jump to that conclusion. I will leave that up to the police to investigate. But if you ask me at this moment, I don't think so.

RB: And revenge for what exactly?

PC: For damage to that windshield, they make that… they make that to me very clear.

RB: Right. But… but you didn't… you didn't damage the windshield?

PC: No. The surveillance footage actually recorded that, you know, somebody who was wearing an apron took a piece of brick and ran up to the vehicle and smashed that windshield. So it is… there is an actual… actual recording of, like, that incident.

RB: Right. So they… they assumed it might have been you and came after you for that?

PC: Yes. So, they came out. And then, from there, the hand signals they… clearly, they point to my… to my shop, the back on my shop. And then, that person is the person appears to be, you know, the suspect who assaulted me.

RB: You've been having some memory issues since. Can… can you tell us… I mean, what does that entail?

PC: I forget things. Like, you know, there were… there were things that I used to be able to do no problems. So, you know, answering emails and, you know… you know, when I was running my shop on a regular basis, I have to order things. I have to, you know, prepare the items for tomorrow. If any special order, I would have to, you know, look into it. And then, I mean, I will remember everything. I do not have to look into my… my… I just have to check things once, and then I have no problem executing all the work orders at all. But now, I mean, if I were to try to make a mental note that I have to order something, I will forget that within 15-20 minutes. And it's very frustrating because this is so… like, I'm not that same person anymore, and which is… which is scary. And then… and then… and then, I had a… a compression fracture in my lumbar. So it… it is actually very difficult for me to remain standing for, like, longer than 20 minutes, half an hour maximum.

RB: I'm so sorry to hear that. That sounds incredibly distressing.

PC: It is.

RB: Yeah. Many of the cafe regulars say that your… your tea house is so much more than a tea house. What else does it provide?

PC: So, I support a lot of artists, especially young artists. You know, I let them use my venue, my tea shop, to… to do free concerts. You know, they wanted to perform, they wanted to try just to sort of get the experience. And I also let artists display the artwork in my tea shop as well.

RB: So, it sounds like what started out then as a tea shop really became a community, a vibrant community?

PC: Very much so.

RB: So Philip, the pandemic has had a detrimental effect on your business, like so many other businesses, and you launched a GoFundMe campaign to be able to keep the doors open. The target was $60,000. How much have you raised?

PC: I think as we speak right now, it's close to $87,000 already. And I was… I think I would admit… I admit that I… the only thing I did was to just write up my… my… my GoFundMe page. The rest were all done by my customers.

RB: What has this whole experience of the assault and the aftermath of it and this fundraiser for you? What has that taught you about life?

PC: It taught me a very important lesson about having faith in humanity. You know, sometimes, we can… it can be so overwhelmed… overwhelming that we feel that, you know, this world is a very negative place, very dark place to be in. But… but it's not. In fact, it's not. It's just that we have to… I'll have to find a way to speak up and then to let people know what… to let people know the unfortunate incident that happened to me. And then when, you know, given the right conditions, the good things happened.

RB: Well, Phillip, I hope your recovery continues. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us.

PC: No, thank you for having me again. Appreciate it.

RB: Okay. Bye-bye.

PC: Bye-bye.

CH: Phillip Chan is the owner of Crimson Teas. We reached him in Toronto.

[Music: Glassy guitar riff]

Grand Manan Banking Bust

CH: Going to the bank is a task that always takes a bit longer than you want it to. But for islanders on Grand Manan, New Brunswick, it might take up to nine hours, involve two ferries, and require a fee of $60. As of August 24th, Scotiabank will close its branch on Grand Manan. Which means that, for the first time in more than 100 years, the 2,400 residents of the island will not have a bank. Last night, hundreds of people rallied to stop that from happening. Mayor Bonnie Morse was there, and Gregg Russell organised the event.

[sc]

GREGG RUSSELL: When I looked out at that group, I knew every one of them. I could see the impact this closure is going to have on them. Another thing, that meeting was live streamed last night. As… as we speak now, 7,000 people have watched that, and that number is growing by the minute.

JULIA WRIGHT: What does that tell you?

GR: People care. And I think we really have a chance to make the change, to get enough public pressure on Scotiabank to realize the error of their ways and reverse it. Of all of the institutions in Canada, banks, likely more than anyone else, do not like negative public pressure.

JW: Yeah, I mean, people are fired up about this on Grand Manan. And maybe Mayor Morse, you could talk about that? Like, what are your constituents saying to you about this bank closure?

BONNIE MORSE: I think our concerns are a lot like we talked about back in January. Certainly, our senior population in particular, who are very cash-dependent, they, you know, haven't made the move to electronic banking. And for them, this is a huge inconvenience, is a minor word for it. You know, our business populations, people who are… you know, who still do cash sales, that sort of thing, like convenience stores, restaurants, all of those things. When you start talking about having to have cash on hand or trying to get your cash to a financial institution to deposit. These are huge… huge issues. And to have to take an entire day to go and do your banking, it… it makes it a really big challenge for our community.

JW: What about other banking options? Could you just say forget Scotiabank, try to attract some other financial institutions to the island?

BM: We have contacted all the other major banks in Canada. We've reached out to credit unions, and there just doesn't seem to be an interest in open… opening a physical location. So, we're starting to pivot towards what can we do to help the transition.

JW: Gregg, it sounds like you're not quite where the mayor is on this one. Like, you… you want to reverse this change and do whatever necessary to make sure that Scotiabank changes course on this. Like, what are you suggesting people do?

GR: To… to call their MP. Call your MLA. Go to Scotiabank. Do something. What I asked people to do yesterday, I said, this is going to depend on you. That was everyone in the audience, everyone joining this live stream. They have to do something. I don't have all the answers of what that is. I said, let's do this ethically and legally, but do something. And from what I'm… the response I am getting is people are doing something.

[/sc]

CH: That was Grand Manan resident Gregg Russell and Mayor Bonnie Morse speaking with Julia Wright today on Information Morning Saint John.

[Music: Acoustic guitar]

Edible Tape

Guest: Erin Walsh

CH: When you're in college or university, the workload can be tough. And under pressure, it can be hard to keep it together. That's especially true for a group of students at Johns Hopkins University, who've had a lot on their plates this year. I mean most of what I just said in the literal sense. Because when I say "keeping it together", the "it" I'm referring to is: a burrito. And it took a lot of burritos for Erin Walsh and her engineering classmates to wrap up their final project -- which had to do with wrapping up burritos. A procedure they believe they've improved, by creating a new edible adhesive they've dubbed "Tastee Tape." We reached Erin Walsh in Baltimore, Maryland.

RB: Erin, when you first got accepted to this prestigious university, could you have ever imagined that the defining moment of your education would involve edible burrito tape?

ERIN WALSH: Absolutely not. You know, I pictured coming to Johns Hopkins to study chemical and biomolecular engineering. And maybe, you know, be working with DNA or something crazy like that. And so, to realize that I've ended up creating an edible burrito tape with my team is definitely not where I expected this to end up, but I'm definitely very grateful that I'm here.

RB: [laughing] Can you tell us the origin story? How did it all come about?

EW: Yeah. So, in the beginning of the year, me and my three other team members had to brainstorm really as many product ideas as possible for our product design class. And I was kind of struggling to get through. You know, I had to come up with 20 new product ideas. And so, by the end of that list, I was kind of just throwing ideas out there. And I'm a big, big fan of burritos and wraps, but I am maybe the world's worst burrito roller. It never goes well for me. And so, then when I'm trying to eat it, it's kind of getting everywhere, opening up. And so, I really wished that I had a product that could solve this little inconvenience in my everyday life. And so, you know, I threw that on the end of my ideas for products and we ended up rolling with it, which I didn't expect it. But now, here we are.

RB: [chuckle] So, how does Tastee Tape work exactly?

EW: Yeah. So there's a fibrous backbone and then there's a water soluble adhesive. So, it comes on strips of wax paper, and you peel it off the wax paper, you activate it with water, either with your finger or dipping it in a little jar of water. And then you stick it right onto your burrito and press for just a second. And then, it adheres the tortilla together.

RB: Does it have a taste to it?

EW: So, that's the big selling point. We didn't want it to have any taste, and by our final prototype, it has a really, really neutral taste and texture as well. So, when you're eating it on your tortilla, it's really barely noticeable.

RB: Is it vegetarian, vegan, gluten-free?

EW: It is. It is vegan. And I believe it's gluten-free. It's made of all common food and dietary additives. So, it's all generally regarded as safe.

RB: And can you tell us what is in it or is that like top secret?

EW: Yeah. So, because we're currently in the patent process, all I can say is that it's a fibrous backbone and an organic water soluble adhesive, because obviously we have to protect our intellectual property, especially since this is getting so much attention now.

RB: I'm almost picturing that it's like one of those Fruit Roll-Ups or like a Listerine strip. Is that kind of about the texture of it?

EW: Yeah. So, when you peel it off, it's pretty brittle. And then once you dip it in the water, it becomes super soft. And we have compared it a little bit to Fruit Roll-Ups, but it's definitely thinner, I would say.

RB: Okay, so we're talking about the success of this product, but obviously you probably had a lot of trial and error to get to this point. Did you have any big fails?

EW: Yes, many, many failures. Me and my four team members all kind of split up the prototyping. So, I was working on one prototype for pretty much an entire semester. And at the end of the day, it didn't work out, which was a big challenge for me because I had put so much time and effort into it and there were definitely points where we got discouraged and weren't sure that we were even going to have a working prototype by the end of the year. And then, thankfully, in the last couple of weeks of the semester, one of my teammate’s prototypes really ended up coming through.

RB: And what was that moment like when the burrito tape finally stuck?

EW: It was amazing. [chuckling] It was amazing even… even when we got a product that looks like tape, even if it wasn't fully working yet, to see it come to fruition was absolutely crazy and really a great experience.

RB: How many burritos were harmed in the making of this project?

EW: So many! [RB laughs] We ate and demolished so many burritos. And, you know, we got to a point where we had to start really just testing it on closed tortillas that were stuffed, not with food, because we had been eating and wasting so many burritos.

RB: [laughing] I can imagine. You know, your invention, of course, it's getting some attention from us here this evening, but it's received a lot of attention around the world as well, including from Late Night host Jimmy Fallon. Just take a listen to what he had to say earlier this week.

[sc]

JIMMY FALLON: And in more science news, guys. Engineering students at Johns Hopkins University have come up with a pretty helpful invention.

[Sound: Clapping and laughing]

JF: It's about time! Fantastic! Now I can stop asking the guy at Chipotle to staple my burrito.

[/sc]

RB: [chuckling] There you go! You and Jimmy Fallon had something in common. You couldn't get your burritos to stick. [laughing] I mean, what's it been like to see this idea really take off?

EW: It is absolutely insane. When it really started to take off, and when one of my friends sent me that Jimmy clip, it was really crazy because it's spiralling so much and we never, ever in a million years anticipated that, you know, we would be doing radio interviews at the end of our senior year.

RB: [chuckling] Where else do you envision that this tape might be used? Is it only for burritos or could you use it for other things as well?

EW: I mean, obviously it's mainly being marketed towards burritos right now, but when we came up with the original idea, we liked it because we thought it had a lot of applications. Obviously, anything with a tortilla or a taco or like a gyro or something like that. But then also we are looking into future product development for double-sided tape, which also might bring in, you know, a whole new market. Any food that needs to be stuck together in any way, Tastee Tape can help.

RB: Hmm. As fun as it is to talk about. Do you feel that it's kind of going to define your career? Is… is this… are you going to go down, like, the edible engineering road now or do you have other dreams?

EW Yeah. So, our team all has jobs or grad school lined up. And, you know, obviously we still have jobs and grad school lined up. But now that we see this big opportunity, we're really starting to think about some things. And if there's a way that we can continue this project without completely abandoning our other engineering future hopes.

RB: [chuckling] I understand you're graduating next week?

EW: I am! Yeah.

RB: Congratulations. Do you think there's going to be celebratory burritos involved?

EW: Oh, I hope so! And hopefully they'll have Tastee Tape on them.

RB: I'm surprised you said that. I thought you'd never want to see another burrito again.

EW: [both laughing] I know that's what they all think, but I do love burritos. I really do.

RB: Erin, it was great to talk to you. Thanks so much.

EW: Thank you for having me.

RB: Bye-bye.

CH: Erin Walsh is a student at the Whiting School of Engineering at Johns Hopkins University, and one of the creators of Tastee Tape. We reached her in Baltimore, Maryland.

[Music: Folk jig]

Prosecco Injury

CH: Let's rewind to May 6th -- the day the Giro D'Italia cycling race began. There's a lot of excitement about Biniam Girmay of Eritrea, who seems poised to become the first Black cyclist ever to win a stage of a Grand Tour race. Hence the headline on CyclingTips-dot-com: "Biniam Girmay Eyes History As A Giro Stage Win Beckons". Which turns out to be an unfortunate choice of words. Now, fast-forward to Tuesday.

[sc]

ANNOUNCER: Girmay still has it for the moment. Has to keep it going! Veni, vidi, Bini. And more history is made. Eritrea is the winner of the Grand Tour stage. Say it loud, say it proud. The flag flies at the finish. And Biniam Girmay, the trailblazer, does it yet again!

[/sc]

CH: He did it. He won the 10th stage of the Giro D'Italia. He didn't just eye history. He made history. Now, though, let's fast-forward another hour or so, to the traditional post-race celebration. Mr. Girmay is centre stage. In front of him is a giant bottle of prosecco. He bends down to untwist the wire cage that fits over the cork. Pulls that cage off, barely touching the cork at all. And...

[Sound: A pop and a smacking sound]

CH: The cork explodes out of the bottle, directly into his left eye. He goes on to gamely spray the crowd with prosecco, but it's clear that he -- like the bottle -- is badly shaken. And not long thereafter, Biniam Girmay withdraws from the race. The cork caused a hemorrhage. So, to their credit, race organizers immediately abandon the tradition: the winner of Stage 11 is presented with bottle of prosecco that's already been uncorked. Now, the good news is that Mr. Girmay will very likely be totally fine. He even stayed in Italy to cheer on his teammates. So he eyed history, but his eye's not history. Still: little did he know that when he went to book his plane ticket, he'd be catching the red eye.

[Music: Jazz]

Part 3: Dolphin Urine Taste, Windsor Safe Opened

Dolphin Urine Taste

Guest: Jason Bruck

CH: You've probably seen the hilarious signs at your neighbour's place. The ones that read, "We don't swim in your toilet -- so don't pee in our pool!" Or "Welcome to our ool. Notice there is no P in it." But scientists studying how dolphins communicate actually relied on the presence of pee in a pool. And what they found was that dolphins can recognize their friends and family members by the taste of their urine. Jason Bruck is the co-author of the study and an assistant professor of biology at Stephen F. Austin State University in Texas. We reached him on a research trip at the Dolphin Quest resort in Bermuda.

RB: Jason, many people are probably familiar with dolphins using sounds to communicate. What made you think that maybe they also used the taste of each other's urine to recognize their pals?

JASON BRUCK: Well, this actually started as a study into their whistles. We were looking at how dolphins use signature whistles like names. So, basically, can the dolphins use a signature whistle as a label? And so, signature whistles are these kind of calls that the dolphins innovate for themselves. They name themselves in the first year of their life. And so, in order to figure this out about their whistles, we needed another sensory system that we could test their whistles against to show that the dolphins had what's called a representational understanding of their calls. So, in doing that, what we did is we looked up some of the older literature, some anecdotes of… of dolphins kind of swimming with their mouths open through excretion plumes, and then kind of got into some of that older literature. And there were some… actually some Russian scientists who were working with this as well. And we said, hey, you know what, it would be a lot easier to carry urine around from… from one dolphin to another than it would be to carry a big video screen with the dolphin or… or carry the dolphins themselves around. That would be very hard to do, obviously. So, we thought, let's just try it. And it turns out that not only could they do it, but that the dolphins really responded well to this experiment. It's as if we kind of figured something out about their world. And they would just kind of line up ready to do pee sampling quite readily. So, it's like your dog sniffing a fire hydrant. They were pretty ready to do it.

RB: I have a lot of follow-up questions at this point. Dolphin pee sampling. How do you get a dolphin to pee on demand?

JB: So, we worked with dolphins under human care, at facilities in Bermuda and Hawaii. And these dolphins are actually trained to give urine samples as part of their regular health check-ups. So, we figured it would be kind of easy to work with facilities where the animals already do this. So, you just kind of… a dolphin swims up on its back with its belly up, and you put a little bit of light pressure on the bladder. And if they've got pee for you, they'll give it to you.

RB: Okay. Just to give me a sense of you at this, are you wearing goggles or what's happening with you?

JB: [laughing] No, I'm not wearing goggles. It's not it's not quite that level of pressure. So I didn't have to wear goggles. But, you know… yeah, that's… the ocean is full of many things.

RB: Yes. [laughing]

JB: Dolphin urine is one of them.

RB: So once you have the dolphin urine collected, then what do you do with it?

JB: So what we do at that point is we use it in what's called a playback experiment. Now, there are a couple of ways you do that. First, we wanted to determine if they could identify each other with just the urine cues? So we took urine from dolphins that were familiar and urine from dolphins that we knew they never knew and unfamiliar individuals. And we put it in a little cup, and we put that cup at the end of a pole. And we would lead the dolphins down the dock. And, of course, they weren't trained to do this, really. They did this kind of on their own. They followed us around, ready to taste some urine samples. And so, we would just kind of pour that in the water. And when we… when we got to the test area, and the dolphin would… we would then measure how long the dolphin kept its mouth open, sampling that urine sample. And so they would sample for much longer individuals they knew versus individuals they didn't know.

RB: So, this taken with the communication using how they use sound together. I mean, what… what do you hope that this will all result in? How… how does it expand our knowledge of dolphins?

JB: So, because we were able to not only determine the chemical recognition stuff and… but really test it against the signature whistles. When you match or mismatch those signature whistles to the urine samples, the dolphins actually respond longer when you make a match. Meaning the dolphins understand whose whistle belongs to whose urine. That means that dolphins have a representational understanding of signature whistles, which is a big deal. We have a representational understanding of our names. For example, if I give you the name of your best friend, you might picture that individual in your head. We're now fairly confident that dolphins do that with signature whistles, just as we do that with human names. So that's the first step to really understanding almost a noun-like understanding of a signal in a dolphins communication system. So, that's a big step forward. The other thing obviously is looking at the chemical recognition capabilities. We know very little about gustation, taste senses. And we even know a lot less about it in other mammals. We don't know much about it, even in humans. There's still a lot of mysteries about taste. So this is hopefully going to help stimulate a lot of research looking at things like lipid taste receptors, which is another taste receptor that most people don't even know they have, which will hopefully stimulate a lot of discussion about how chemical senses operate, both in terms of taste and smell. You see, dolphins don't have a sense of smell, so we can study taste by itself. In other animals, it's very difficult to separate the sense of smell from the sense of taste. So, this is a really exciting opportunity to just study how taste works in this really unique way.

RB: Jason, great to talk to you today. Thanks so much.

JB: Thank you.

CH: Jason Bruck is an assistant professor of biology at Stephen F. Austin State University in Texas. We reached him at the Dolphin Quest resort in Bermuda.

[Music: Indie rock]

Young Hockey Fan Numbers

CH: When it comes to hockey, numbers don't lie. In fact, in Edmonton right now, the numbers are standing up. Over the past few weeks, someone has been erecting large orange numbers around the city in what appears to be a tribute to the Oilers. And while the team's fate is as unknown as the signs’ origins, fans like Reid Sanderman have been taking notice. The eight-year-old hockey fan and his mother have been following developments in the playoff series, and the series of numbers.

[sc]

KIDS: Let’s go Oilers!!! Woooo, Oilers!!!

CHRISTINE SANDERMAN: We love hockey in our house. [laughing] My son has played since he was three, and he is obsessed with all things Oilers, all things NHL. He knows all the stats. He knows all the players. Driving around the city, we found giant orange numbers and they were the numbers of Oilers players. So, we hunted them all down and tried to take pictures of them.

REID SANDERMAN: My name is Reid Sanderman. So, we saw 25, which is Darnell Nurse; 41, which is Mike Smith; 29, who is Leon Draisaitl; [said with gusto] and 97, who is Connor McDavid!

KIM NAKRIEKO: Would he happen to be your favourite?

RS: Hmm, Yes!

CS: Yeah.

KN: That game on Saturday night, like, I was stressed out and I'm not even close to as big a fan as you. How were you feeling when you were watching it?

RS: Stressed… and happy!

KN: What kind of sounds were you making?

RS: Yessssssss! [everyone laughs] Woooo hooooo! [panting]

KN: All right. What do you love about the Oilers so much, do you think?

RS: Because they're a good team and they're in Edmonton, which is the place I live. So, it's fun that I can go and see them and I like all their players.

KN: What's going to happen these next few games between… like, Battle of Alberta, what are you thinking?

RS: So, I think Calgary has a good chance of winning, but Edmonton also has a good chance of winning. It's about 50-50. Go Oilers!!! [clapping]

KIDS: Go Oilers!!!

[/sc]

CH: That was eight-year-old Reid Sanderman and his mother Christine speaking to the CBC's Kim Nakrieko.

[Music: Hip-hop beat]

Ottawa Rats

CH: Apparently there aren't enough fat cats in Ottawa. If there were, it would mean they were eating the rats. So far this year, hundreds of people have made complaints about rats in the capital. One woman told CBC Ottawa she doesn't even feel comfortable letting her kids play in the yard. So today, Ottawa Morning called up Bobby Corrigan, a leading urban rodentologist based in Rat Heaven, New York City. He's also done rat surveys in Ottawa. And here's some of what Mr. Corrigan said when he was asked what needs to be done to address the rat problem?

[sc]

BOBBY CORRIGAN: Well, to be frank, what it's going to take is we under address this mammal. We… we're so busy, and we don't think of rats and mice and things as being a top priority for us. We're so busy, we say, well, just call the exterminator person and let them come out and take care of it. We've been doing that for 250 years. This animal requires organization. We have to get organized as cities. We have to spend money on it. We have to have a plan, almost like a war room on this animal. How we are going to treat our cities environmentally is a direct reflection on how we will see the rats or not.

HALLIE COTNAM: Sandra, whom we heard off the top, who is living every day with the impact of having rats, the family has tried poison, the city has tried trapping them, but it really hasn't made a difference. How… how common is that?

BC: Well, it's… it's very common. But again, many times, it's… it's misdirected. If… I listened to the interview… the interview with Sandra. And I would say, you know, when you see rats that common, if they're in the walls and you hear them in the walls, those rats are getting food every single 24 hours on a regular basis that they're making all that noise and they're that present. It's a matter of addressing where are they getting that food and stopping… turn that faucet off, so the rats cannot get easy food.

HC: And finally, Bobby, you know, not a lot of people want to talk about having rats. It's a sort of a… a shameful stigma in some circles, although I think as the population of rats increase, more and more of us are having to deal with it. What advice would you have to people to be open about it, at least to address the problem?

BC: Well, that's the most important thing, is to be open about it. It's nothing to be ashamed of having rats. I mean, rats are so, you know, smart they can get into wealthy people's homes all the time, I see it. In the highest condos of New York City, I will see rats. I will see rats in areas of neighbourhoods where people may be struggling. So, the rat doesn't discriminate on property lines, and it doesn't discriminate between the rich and the poor necessarily. So, you know, the obvious thing is to just think about it logically and again, get the input of an expert.

[/sc]

CH: That was New York rodentologist Bobby Corrigan, of RMC Pest Management Consulting, speaking with Hallie Cotnam on Ottawa Morning this morning.

[Music: Surf rock]

Windsor Safe Opened

Guest: Katharine Gagnon

CH: For decades, its secret was safe -- and its safe was secret. But recently, a demolition crew working on a building in McGregor, Ontario discovered a truly enormous safe in the walls. The safe belonged to T.B. Adams -- who owned a general store and was the great uncle of former Prime Minister Paul Martin. Katharine Gagnon and her husband own Gagnon Demolition and Salvage, which discovered the safe. She was there today when it was finally cracked open. We reached Ms. Gagnon in McGregor, Ontario -- just south of Windsor.

RB: Katharine, take us back to this morning. What was the atmosphere like in the room just before the safe was cracked?

KATHARINE GAGNON: It was very exciting. The first fellow to show up was Todd Sundell with Better Locksmith, who came out to try to get the bottom unit open. So we had a whole crew there watching and waiting for him to get it, try to get it, open.

RB: What were you personally feeling in those moments just before it was cracked open?

KG: It was exciting since it was such an old piece of history. And it was very… it looked like it was very difficult to get in. And we were apprehensive that he would be able to, but he managed to do it. So, as he got closer to doing it, of course, the excitement built and everybody had their cameras going and filming when he finally did open the door. [chuckling] Yeah.

RB: I wonder if you can be really honest with me. I mean, what were you hoping might be inside?

KG: It would have been nice for the historical part of it that maybe there might be some old photographs or anything from that old general store would have been nice. to find.

RB: Okay --

KG: Money would have been good, too. But that wasn't to be.

RB: [both chuckling] Yeah, money would have been pretty fantastic.

KG: That would have been pretty nice. Yeah. Yeah.

RB: Okay, so drumroll. When you finally got it open, what was inside?

KG: Absolutely nothing but a little bit of dust. [chuckling] There wasn't anything in there. Yeah.

RB: Awe!

KG: So, it was like an awe moment. [chuckle] But… but it was still… it was still nice to see the door open because now it even has more character looking at it because it was such a heavy, heavy door with, you know, the lock system on it. The fellow who did it, he said they don't make quality like this anymore. It was… the safe itself was 3,600 pounds in weight. So, you can imagine nobody would really get into that safe. But it just wasn't meant to be. So, we carry on [chuckle] another day.

RB: Katharine, how did you first discover the safe in the first place?

KG: Um, the building that we were taking down, my husband was told there was a rumour that there might be a safe hidden in the building. So, my operator pulled a wall down and saw the back of the safe that said J&J Taylor from Toronto, 1855. And then, he went around with the machine and pulled the other wall down and it was… the whole safe was encased in the walls. So it was pretty interesting.

RB: But there was a safe within the safe, right?

KG: Yes, it's a huge door. This is like four feet tall and probably four feet wide. It's a great big cube. So, the front door was open already, but it was the bottom, I think they might call it a jewellery compartment, that we couldn't get open. So that's why we contacted the specialists in doing safe openings. And he did figure out the combination. So the new owner, whoever that will be, will be able to still use the bottom because we have the combination for them.

RB: Hmm!

KG: Yeah.

RB: You said it's a beautiful thing. What does it look like?

KG: It's black. It's heavy… heavy cat-like metal. It's got fancy, ornate legs with wheels. And it's got kind of… it had gold paint around it. And on the front, embossed in gold, was the name T.B. Adams and Company. So, after researching that, we find out that this building was put up in 1870. And T.B. Adams, he ran a general store out of there. And this fellow, T.B. Adams, is a great uncle to the former Prime Minister Paul Martin. I thought, well, that was really, really even made the story better. [chuckling] Because… because of the connection with, you know, a prominent local figure. Yeah.

RB: Okay. I'm wondering if this has kind of inspired your own imagination and you're thinking if you had your own safe, and you were to leave something in there for someone who might discover it one day, what would you leave in there?

KG: Actually, I would probably leave letters to all the people that are… that are important in my life. That would be interesting. But I don't know what I would leave in the safe.

RB: Well, Katharine, shame you didn't find anything inside, [both chuckle] but it was still nice to hear from you and hear the story. Thank you.

KG: Oh, it was fun. Okay.

RB: Bye-bye.

KG: Bye-bye.

CH: Katharine Gagnon and her husband own Gagnon Demolition and Salvage. We reached her in McGregor, Ontario, just south of Windsor.

[Music: Horns!!!]

FOA: Penis Plant

CH: When it comes to Nepenthes pitcher plants, the Cambodian government wants you to look, but not touch. In a recent Facebook post, Cambodia's Ministry of the Environment shared photos of three women holding the small plants, with a warning not to pick them. The carnivorous plants are rare, even if they look like junk. By which I mean that, when viewed from a particular angle, the pitcher plants resemble male genitalia. Which is why some people call them "penis plants." Now, I don't want to brag, but last year we covered a story about a much bigger penis plant -- the Amorphophallus decus-silvae. H: At the time, the two-metre-tall specimen -- not exaggerating -- was drawing big crowds at the Botanical Gardens in Leiden, the Netherlands. From Our Archives, here's our former host Carol Off speaking with greenhouse manager Rogier Van Vught.

[sc]

you've been waiting for what, six years? For this Amorphophallus plant to do its thing?

RVV: Exactly, there are more... there are multiple species of... of Amorphophallus. The titanum is probably the most famous one. I think, on a yearly basis, you can find it in flower in several botanical gardens in the world. But this one is much rarer. It's... in Europe; it's the third time ever that it flowers. And for us, it's the second time, but the last time it flowered was 24 years ago.

CO: And just for our listeners, just so they know, we're not the ones calling this the Penis Plant. This is your name. So... but it's… what's the Latin? It’s Amorphophallus decus-silvae?

RVV: Yes. Exactly. That's the... that's the Latin name. And Amorphophallus means shapeless penis. If it's a shapeless penis. But the name was invented by, actually, a Dutch guy who... who worked very close to here. I found that out quite recently. You can say, OK, it's a shapeless penis plant, and a reporter from a newspaper turned it into the Penis Plant. And from that moment, people are really coming to the botanical garden to see that. And the name decus-silvae means the glory of the words.

CO: Now, when you say a shapeless penis plant, but this is not a flaccid phallus, is it? I mean, this is a fully-erect specimen. How big is your Penis Plant? How tall?

RVV: It is a decent two metres, so it's slightly above average. It's one of the giant Penis Plants. Actually, there are many species. Some Penis Plants are about the size of your pinky, even smaller. And then they range all the way from that to more than two metres tall. And this is one of the taller species. But the difference between this one and the titanum is that the titanum, the flower starts all the way from... from the ground level. And this one makes a very long, slender stem. And then, on top of it, it makes the penis flower.

CO: Now, [chuckling] you... there are two stages of growth, I understand. When it's growing to its full majestic two metres, that's called the female stage of blooming. But at the male blooming stage, it takes on some other qualities. Can you tell us what happens then?

RVV: This is a complicated story. So the flower opens. And in this stage, it's flowering in the female stage, and it starts to smell really bad, like rotten fish. This is also the stage when the penis part starts to warm up, and insects, mostly flies, will fly into the flower. And there's... that's the thing, there is nothing happening right then. But then, afterwards, the male flowers will open, the female flowers will close, and then all the flies are covered with pollen. And then the flower actually stops stinking so that the flies are thinking, OK, what are we doing here? And they fly away, covered with pollen. And, hopefully, somewhere in the forest, another female stage flower will be blooming, and the flies will dive in... into that flower and pollinate that one.

CO: OK, I'm going to... I'm trying to take all of this in right now. [chuckle] OK. That's [both chuckle] quite a story. And so, because it’s in your botanical gardens, that’s not going to happen, right? There’s no other female. I understand you do have other genitalia-related plants, including a Clitoris Plant, is that right?

RVV: Yes, we do. Actually, botanists were really... I don't know. I think they were kinky in the old days. We have a Nipple Cactus, and indeed, we do have a Clitoria. The Clitoria was flowering the same time when the Amorphophallus was blooming. People found out about that, and they asked me where the Clitoria was? And I turned them into a search for the Clitoria. And in some cases, they came back and with a straight face, surrounded by dozens of other people, they told me, we cannot find the Clitoria. And they were absolutely oblivious of the joke they were in, [CO laughs] which I found really funny. [laughing]

[/sc]

CH: From October 2021, that was Carol's conversation with Rogier Van Vught, head of the Botanical Gardens in Leiden, the Netherlands.

[Music: Ambient]

Largest Scotch Egg

CH: He may be a world record holder, but the U.K.'s Leigh Evans isn't secretive about his recipe for success. In fact, he's sharing it quite publicly. It involves dried mint, sage, peas, panko, and one ostrich egg per attempt. And he's made a few attempts. Not that we expect there to be many more. Vegetarian scotch eggs don't exactly seem like an obvious crowd pleaser. And you'd need a crowd to consume the kind Mr. Evans assembles. According to Guinness World Records, he's the proud creator of a whopping 8.3 kilogram scotch egg, encased in a pea, mint, and cheddar coating in place of the usual sausage meat shell. Now, the whole process reportedly took just under six hours -- with ninety minutes spent boiling the ostrich egg alone. And it was the culmination of a scheme hatched by his employer, Clarence Court. The specialty egg producer already held the title for its massive, meaty version of the dish -- and bested it by more than two kilograms with this vegetarian alternative, just in time for National Vegetarian Week. Leigh Evans is convinced the new concoction qualifies as "a much-loved picnic staple." But we are not so sure. Then again, we do admire him for taking a crack at it. And we're always willing to give peas a chance.

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May 20, 2022 Episode Transcript

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