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The Current Transcript for May 16, 2022

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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‘Racially motivated’ mass shooting leaves 10 dead in Buffalo

Guests: Tyrell Ford, Ricky L Jones

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This is the worst nightmare that any community can face. There is no comfort at this time.

MATT GALLOWAY: It was a horrific scene. Ten people killed in a Buffalo supermarket by a gunman motivated by racism and deliberately targeting black people. In a moment, how community members are remembering the dead and why many are blaming right wing media for spreading the conspiracy theory that the gunman espoused. Also this morning, Finland wants in.

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Russia, they stated that Finland and Sweden can join NATO. What my response would be that you caused this? Look at the mirror.

MG: Coming up, a Finnish politician on why that country wants to join NATO and how they expect Russia to respond. And later, Hong Kong was once a thriving hub, a bridge between east and west. Now, in the wake of a crackdown on democracy engineered by China, people are fleeing that city in 30 minutes. What the future holds when much of what defines Hong Kong is gone. We begin, though, with a city in mourning. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. And this is The Current.

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This was pure evil. It was straight up, racially motivated hate crime from somebody outside of our community trying to inflict that evil upon us.

MG: Pure evil. That is how the events of this weekend are being described by the local sheriff, John Garcia, and others. Ten people are dead, all employees or customers at a supermarket in Buffalo, New York. 13 people were shot in total. 11 of them were black. An 18 year old man who is white is charged with first degree murder. Authorities are describing it as a racially motivated violent extremist act. President Joe Biden and others called it a domestic terrorism. A document allegedly written by the attacker identifies him as a white supremacist, a fascist and an anti-Semite. Hundreds of people took part in vigils in the Buffalo area yesterday.

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[Crowd chanting]

VOICE 1: This is not open season on an African American. This is not shoot if you want. No, this is not what this is. This was an act of evil. Evil.

VOICE 2: I just don't understand why we got to stand divided. It's not right.

VOICE 3: He have a family. He have a beautiful son and he snatched him from them. He loved his children and he loved God as all he wanted to do is to help people.

MG: Tyrell Ford organised a vigil just outside the store where the shooting took place. He's the lead community organiser for a social justice non-profit called Voice of Buffalo. Tyrell, good morning.

TYRELL FORD: Good morning and thank you for having me.

MG: Thank you for being here. How are you doing this morning?

TYRELL FORD: I'm still in shock trying to process the whole situation. We have a community of mourning and this is going to be a long time before we can get to a point to say that we started the healing process. And some folks are going to have lifelong trauma where they have to give counselling, mental health and trauma support for the rest of their lives.

MG: How do you even begin to wrap your head around what happened in your city?

TYRELL FORD: It's only been 48 hours and we're still learning a lot, a lot of what motivated this individual to come and be so evil towards our community. And we are just and all and like, why just why? Why us?

MG: Tell me about the neighbourhood where the shooting took place in the store that that's there. What does that neighbourhood like?

TYRELL FORD: So as predominantly black neighbourhoods, it is in our [unintelligible] district and it is the only black is the only store within a two to three mile radius. So it was quote unquote in a food desert and to have this store closed, is going to impact the community even greater because the lack of transportation through our public transportation system will have an impact whether or not it will get the necessities to, to survive.

MG: And this is a story that you would shop at regularly.

TYRELL FORD: I visited on occasion. It is not one of the main stores I go to, but I do know for friends and family who visit frequently, sometimes two to three times a week.

MG: When you hear authorities say that this store in particular was targeted because of the number of black people who live in the area and the number of black people who would have been there at that time on Saturday. What do you think?

TYRELL FORD: Yes. It is a predominantly black location located on our east side of Buffalo and is heavily trafficked by our African-American culture.

MG: And the shooter, apparently that that's what he was trying to target. That's what he that's what he was looking for, was that culture, as you say?

TYRELL FORD: Yes, he was. He's definitely looking for that. And he has two major cities that have that same culture and ethnicity, such as Syracuse of Rochester. And he deliberately chose Buffalo because we have the most saturated area for African-Americans.

MG: When you were at that vigil yesterday, there were a few hundred people who were there. What were you hearing from the community about? I mean, there's there's shock and there's fear. And I know there's a lot of anger as well. What were you hearing from the community?

TYRELL FORD: It was just raw emotions. People were sad. People were trying to put their process, their thought process together like this is just sort of raw emotions building up, spilling over. And it's just unfathomable what happened on Saturday.

MG: What needs to happen now to help people cope with what they've gone through?

TYRELL FORD: And we're going to need mental health counselling, trauma support. And they we're going to need access to fresh fruits and vegetables and other necessities for our community because we don't know how long the store is going to be closed. Like I said earlier, is the nearest stores two to three miles away. So people, livelihoods to survive are going to be put in jeopardy if they don't have access to these stores.

MG: Your a father. You have a couple of young boys.

TYRELL FORD: Yes. And to make them go to school today, knowing what they know is hard, because how do we send our children back to school? Most who come from that neighbourhood and you have to send them back into classes, knowing what just happened 48 hours ago.

MG: How do you how do you explain to your boys what happened?

TYRELL FORD: I was just telling the truth. There is evil people in this world that would like to see them harmed in any way possible and that they have to stay vigilant in their surroundings as they feel uncomfortable knowing the exit and doing certain gestures. So.

MG: What do you want to see from your city? Buffalo is a big city, but it's also a city that is it is really split between black and white in terms of demographics, in terms of where people live. What do you want to see from the city as a whole?

TYRELL FORD: Well, we're the city of good neighbours and we want to see that during this time, we come together and support one another and lead with love and not hate because we can't let hate win and continue to further divide us. We want to lead with love and that's what we should be doing.

MG: As hard to get to that point, though, given what happened on Saturday.

TYRELL FORD: Yes, it's going to take some some time. But if we can focus on the love and the healing and let families grieve properly. I think we can get there.

MG: Tyrell, thank you for joining us and good luck in your city. It's it's been a lot over the last couple of days.

TYRELL FORD: Thank you. You have a great day.

MG: Tyrell Ford, lead community organiser for a social justice non-profit. It's called Voice Buffalo. He organised a vigil just outside of the Tops friendly market yesterday morning. Speaking in her hometown of Buffalo on Sunday, the governor of New York, Kathy Hochul, vowed to battle racism and gun violence.

SOUNDCLIP

To see that sense of security shattered by an individual, a white supremacist who has engaged in an act of terrorism. It strikes us in our very hearts to know that there's such evil that lurks out there. And it is my sincere hope. This white supremacist who just perpetrated a hate crime on an innocent community will spend the rest of his days behind bars. And heaven help him in the next world as well. Yeah, I'm angry. It has to stop.

MG: Ricky L Jones is a professor and chair of the University of Louisville's Department of Pan-African Studies. Ricky, good morning to you.

RICKY L JONES: Good morning, Matt. Nice to talk to you again.

MG: It's good to have you back on the programme. What did you think when you heard that 10 people had been murdered in this grocery store, in a predominantly Black neighbourhood, a neighbourhood and a store where Black people specifically were being targeted?

RICKY L JONES: Unfortunately, not surprised. Political, psychological, physical violence against Black people is not new in America. It's always been around. We see it at this moment because of media. It's reported on a little bit more at this moment, but it's actually a continuous reality that is often normalized. So those of us who study this know it's not new.

MG: And yet there is. And you heard that in the comments from the governor, but also just in the commentary over the last couple of days, something that is it seems even more shocking than there were there was gun violence over the course of the weekend elsewhere. This was something where people were specifically targeted as as we heard from Tyrell, the shooter apparently drove 200 miles past other cities to get to a community where he knew that there would be a concentration of Black people there.

RICKY L JONES: Yes, because of that, because of the particularly egregious nature and brazen nature of this particular incident, we'll pay attention to it for the moment, to get us past this news cycle. And we probably won't think of this one very much past the end of the week or so. But racially motivated violence in America will continue and we won't centre on it as much as we should.

MG: What's at the heart of that? What what is at the heart of what's driving this, do you think?

RICKY L JONES: What's at the heart of this really is American institutional racism and white supremacy, which have sat at the foundation of the country since it was founded. I mean, we are a living contradiction in this country. We're the country that started off saying, 'All men are created equal,' and the same people who wrote that, a good percentage of them owned slaves. So if you listen to the country and you listen to what people say right now, you'll hear a lot of commentary blaming Fox News, blaming the Republican Party, that's too elementary, that's too easy. They're just symptoms of the problem. FOX News right now, is the largest, they have the largest viewership of any cable news network in the country by a lot. The GOP, people can say what they want about the Republican Party, but they're still winning elections. So this isn't about a news channel or a political party. It's really about America. It's about the country. It's about this white supremacist ethos that's been running through the country since its founding. This belief that whites and only whites have the right to think, know and decide. And when they feel that they're being pushed out — a good percentage of them anyway — then you get this type of pushback. And again, it's not new.

MG: And yet people have said that that's been given gasoline, that that's been given fuel by ... We could talk about Fox News. Tucker Carlson has touted this idea of the great replacement, this idea that — I'll use your phrase — white people are being pushed aside, white people are being replaced. This is an idea that has been talked about openly on a show that's watched by millions of people. What's the impact of that?

RICKY L JONES: But it's always been around Matt, I mean, that's my point. The idea that this was a country founded by and for whites, and they have the right to run everything, to own everything, to make every decision — that is not new in America. And so we've always seen this fear among our white brothers and sisters here, a good percentage of them anyway, a fear of physical displacement, of political disempowerment, and on the extremes: of genetic annihilation. Those are not new tropes in the country. It makes us feel better to say they're new tropes. It makes us feel better to just blame Tucker Carlson and Fox News, and believe me, they are problematic. It makes us feel better to say something is wrong with the Republican Party. But something is wrong with the country. The country is in denial. And as James Baldwin said, you know, we can't fix everything that we face, but we definitely can't fix what we don't fix. So you can't fix it if you won't face it. So until America deals with the ever present reality, I'm talking about contemporary, not historic reality, of institutional racism, of white supremacy that runs throughout every river and tributary of this country, we're going to stay in this place.

MG: Are you at all comforted by the fact that the FBI is investing, investigating this as a hate crime? You heard the language of of the governor of New York there, Kathy Hochul, who's from Buffalo, who talked about this as being domestic terrorism. Does that give you comfort?

RICKY L JONES: No, it doesn't give me comfort. Even if you see situations here and there where perpetrators of this type of violence are punished, it doesn't change the reality of institutional racism. I mean, the same people who would investigate something like this will turn around and say institutional racism doesn't exist. The same people who would say, yes, this is the right thing to do to investigate this will turn around and push anti CRT bills and legislation throughout the country where you can't even teach the reality.

MG: Critical race theory.

RICKY L JONES: Yes, of critical race theory will turn around and say you can't even teach the reality of the history of racism and institutional racism and white supremacy in this country. So no, that doesn't give me comfort. I think that that's just the appeal, you know, appeal to mask the pain and not really get to the heart of the matter of the disease.

MG: And so how do you do that? How do you start to get at the heart of the matter?

RICKY L JONES: The first thing we have to do is admit what we are. You know, Noah Hawley, the showrunner for Fargo, the television show, I haven't watched, but he said something profound. He said, there's a certain madness that comes with being a thing, but denying with your last breath that you are that thing. And that's that's America. That's our country. You know, we are incredibly divided. We're incredibly segregated. We're incredibly violent towards people because of the colour of their skin. But we deny that with our last breath. So until we can really admit, yes, we are institutionally racist, yes, we are a white supremacist country and not some cartoonish white supremacist about, you know, the Ku Klux Klan burning crosses or people marching through Charlottesville. But it's it's at every level of our country. That's where we can start a real interrogation of what's going on. And only then will we be able to move to the next level. Until then, I think we're going to stay in this cycle.

MG: There is, as you have acknowledged, though, a visceral pushback to that. I mean, whether it's talking about, you know, critical race theory, which means, you know, a lot of different things to a lot of different people, whether it's, you know, states and legislatures banning the teaching of The New York Times 1619 project, whether it's talking about a book Anti-Racist Baby, and saying that this is corrupting young minds. There is a whole push against what you're saying is at the heart of addressing the root cause of what we saw on Saturday. So how do you get around that?

RICKY L JONES: I don't know a way around that right now. That's why we're not going to get better in the short run. You know, we are seeing, I think because of demographic shifts now, we are no longer a majority white country. I mean, for the first time since the show that whites fell below the 50% mark in our 2020 census. And so there's even more fear now, even more pushback to maintain what they see the country as being so. In the short run, I don't see a way out of this, and I know that doesn't make people feel very good. But I think that it's going to get a little bit worse before it gets better.

MG: That's not a hopeful sentiment because the assumption is not the assumption, certainly. But maybe the desire is that something like this, whenever it happens, this is going to be the thing that's going to lead to change.

RICKY L JONES: Yeah. But, you know, like most of at the same colleges, Martin Luther King Jr. Morehouse College in Atlanta and is king there. Towards the end of his life, he started to re-evaluate his ideas about moral suasion and appealing to the conscience of white America. And I'm getting to the same place. You know, I used to be much more hopeful than I am. But now as I get into my mid-fifties and I see that continuous push back and the readjustments of white supremacy, I'm not sure that being simply being hopeful is the way out. And I don't think we can love our way out of this situation. Something else needs to happen, and I'm not sure what it is.

MG: What do you think we in Canada should be thinking about? I mean, we have had in this country a shooting in a mosque in Quebec City. Of course, there was the massacre in New Zealand, which some people believe perhaps was the inspiration for what happened in Buffalo. What should we be thinking about here in terms of what happened across the border?

RICKY L JONES: You know, I think Matt, racism is a global ill. America simply is the greatest contradiction that we see in the world, as we really posit ourselves as the shining light of democracy and opportunity and this melting pot ethic. And so I would hope that the world would learn from our contradictions and our examples — the bad examples — and do a bit better, because I'm not sure we're the place to lead the way. So that's what I would say to our Canadian brothers and sisters up north, Don't be like us, you know, deal with your problems as openly and honestly and humanely as you can, because that's not what we're doing in the United States right now.

MG: And that's deeply, just finally that's deeply uncomfortable in dealing with those problems. A lot of what you're saying is going to make people feel deeply uncomfortable, but is that the point, in some ways?

RICKY L JONES: The truth is often uncomfortable, you know, and telling the truth should not be a revolutionary act for people who tell the truth in America that are considered revolutionaries. And that is a sad, sad reality. And so I would say to anybody, do not be like us. Telling the truth should be the order of the day or situations like this are concerned, because that's the way we make the world better for ourselves and our children.

MG: Ricky Jones, good to speak with you again. Thank you very much.

RICKY L JONES: Always my brother. Have a good day.

MG: Ricky Earl Jones is a professor and chair of the University of Louisville's Department of Pan African Studies. Your CBC News is next and there'll be the latest on the situation in Buffalo, New York. And then new leader Sam rhetoric in Hong Kong. In six minutes, what changed and what hasn't in that city after the appointment of a new chief executive? People are fleeing Hong Kong. What is the future of that city look like? We'll find out. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One.

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Pro-democracy activists arrested in Hong Kong

Guests: Kelly Ho, Matthew Brooker, Dennis Kwok

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, Finland and Sweden have decided that NATO's membership looks like a pretty good bet right now. Both countries are moving toward joining the military alliance. What that means and what the repercussions might be, in just under 30 minutes. But first, Hong Kong's new chief executive.

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MG: There is someone new in charge of Hong Kong. Last week, former security chief John Lee won the election for chief executive. It wasn't a hard election to win. He ran unopposed. John Lee is known for calling pro-democracy protesters terrorists and extremists. Days after his election, police arrested four high profile pro-democracy figures on suspicion of colluding with foreign forces. They included Denise Ho, a Canadian Hong Kong activist and 90 year old Cardinal Joseph Zen, one of Asia's highest ranking Catholic clerics. Kelly Ho is a reporter with the Hong Kong Free Press. Kelly, Hello and thanks for joining us.

KELLY HO: Hi, thanks for having me.

MG: What can you tell us about John Lee, the new chief executive? Who is he?

KELLY HO: Well, John Lee this year, he is 64 years old. He was a former police officer who later joined the government administration on the Carrie Lam leadership. And he was appointed the secretary for security and during his term as the security minister. He played a pivotal role in pushing for the extradition bill, which eventually became withdrawn. And it sparked months of violent protests in Hong Kong. And last year, he was appointed the chief secretary of administration, meaning he was the second most powerful government official in Hong Kong. And after holding the post for less than a year, he resigned in April and ran for the city's top job.

MG: What do people make of the fact that he ran for, as you say, the city's top job essentially unopposed? Nobody else was running against him.

KELLY HO: There have been a lot of media coverage calling him Beijing's man, saying he was the only candidate with Beijing's blessing. And obviously in a lot of media reporting. Reporters include words like unopposed and contested to sort of state the fact that this election only had one candidate. And I think a lot of Hong Kongers and were aware that there was only one candidate. And because in previous elections there would be debates between candidates and this year there wasn't any because he didn't have any opponents. I think the public also was aware that Lee was the only one running for the job.

MG: In the wake of his victory in this election. As I mentioned, there were arrests that followed. Why were those people who were arrested, including Denise Ho and the Cardinal Joseph San? Why were they targeted? 612 Humanitarian Relief Fund. This fund is already defunct and default and were former trustees basically. And this fund provided legal assistance, psychological money for protesters to seek psychological counselling and medical treatment and emergency relief during the 2019 protests. And last year, they the fund, already received a court order from police asking information from them, including their donor information. And so the four of them have been arrested on suspicion of colluding with foreign forces and to force them have not been formally charged. They were all released on police bail.

MG: One of those people is the 90 year old Cardinal Joseph Zen. We spoke with a friend of his, Johnny Greville, heir, who is a Catholic missionary in Italy, who's been working on and off in Hong Kong for the last 30 years or so. Take a listen to how he reacted to the news of his friend's arrest.

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China is afraid for what he symbolised. He's a man of principle determination. He's a man that has inspired many people. He became some sort of the hero for all people in Hong Kong. And they are the majority of people of Hong Kong who want democracy and freedom for Hong Kong.

MG: Do you see this as in some ways a symbol that, as Johnny Cavalier says, the cardinal was a hero to an older generation in Hong Kong?

KELLY HO: I believe the cardinal, he was, as you know, he was a former bishop of Hong Kong, so he was a Catholic leader of Hong Kong people. And also he has been outspoken on issues including human rights, political freedom and religious liberty. And he was also frequently spotted in court for protest related cases. So I believe he, in a lot of people's eyes, would be a prominent pro-democracy figure. And therefore, his arrest made international headlines.

MG: In the wake of these arrests and. The arrests that happened earlier. How afraid are people in Hong Kong to speak out about politics, about what's happening in that city right now?

KELLY HO: I believe it's hard to tell. And it is because most opposition figures are now behind bars. Some of them are pending trial. Some of them were given jail sentences over protest related offences. Some opposition figures are now in exile and there are those who have quit politics. So I think my answer to your question is it is hard to tell.

MG: What about for you? I mean, as a journalist, there have been journalists that have been arrested as well. How dangerous is it for you to do your job?

KELLY HO: I think for me personally, I stick to the principles of impartiality and to be objective in my reporting. And I believe as long as I hear to those principles, I feel confident to continue doing my job.

MG: There are a lot of people who are leaving Hong Kong. Have you considered leaving Hong Kong?

KELLY HO: I haven't, but I understand that this is sort of a question that has been discussed amongst people, family and friends. It is a question that has popped up, I think, since perhaps last year. I don't I don't really know when it became such a frequently asked questions on our Hong Kong shows. But I think every single day there are people who are making a life changing decision. And and also like the COVID 19 fifth wave also sort of prompted another wave of people just leaving Hong Kong. And so, yeah, I think every single day at the Hong Kong International Airport, you would see people gather to send their friend or family off to offices here.

MG: Kelly, it's good to speak with you. Thank you very much.

KELLY HO: Thank you for having me.

MG: Kelly Ho is a reporter for the Hong Kong Free Press. As we mentioned, since the start of this year, it's estimated that more than 150,000 Hong Kong residents have left that city. Foreign businesses also eyeing the exits. Matthew Brooker is one of those people about to move. He's been living in Hong Kong for most of 30 years and covering it as a journalist. He's a columnist with Bloomberg Opinion. Matthew, hello to you.

MATTHEW BROOKER: Hi.

MG: What's at the root, do you think, of this exodus from Hong Kong?

MATTHEW BROOKER: To me, it's it's very clear it's the political change in Hong Kong. The whole character of Hong Kong society has changed dramatically in the past two years. It would be very difficult to say how much is is is down to the national security law, which was brought in, you know, close to two years ago and how much due to the COVID restrictions. But, you know, most of the people leaving have been native Hong Kongers, certainly those those emigrating to to Britain. You know, I don't think they would be leaving just because of pandemic restrictions that will eventually be lifted. I think it's really the the constriction on Hong Kong's freedoms that has prompted most of them to leave.

MG: You wrote that Hong Kong isn't what it was.

MATTHEW BROOKER: I think anybody who came here, say more than three years ago and then came back today would be very struck by the differences.

MG: What are those differences? I mean, we just heard Kelly talk about how people are reluctant in some ways to speak out about politics as journalists. She's very cautious as well. What are you seeing in terms of the differences there, in terms of how people live their lives and what people talk about in living those lives?

MATTHEW BROOKER: Yeah, I think, you know, in terms of culture, what you had here was a I would say how Hong Kong has always it's never been a democracy. There's been elements of democracy here, but the leader has never been popularly elected. But what you did have here was a very free, pluralistic, diverse society. You had a very active, vigorous civil society as well. And this is being kind of rapidly erased by the changes since the national security law was imposed on Hong Kong by Beijing. I mean, there's so many things you could point to. Unions have been forced to debate, disband the annual Tiananmen Square vigil that's held in Victoria Park, was held continuously for, you know, 29 or 30 years has now been banned. Virtually all the opposition figures who were due to contest the Legislative Council elections a couple of years ago, which was subsequently postponed. Virtually all those candidates are now and activists are now in prison, most of them still awaiting trial. Newspapers have been closed down. Use organisations have been closed down, lawyers have been forced out. Human rights organisations have pulled out of Hong Kong. You know, you could go on this. There's there's many things, many, many things that have contributed to this change. And this is all had a very kind of chilling effect, I think, on, you know, the way people are, how willing they are to be open in talking about things in Hong Kong.

MG: And so there are so many people leaving, as you say in this piece, that Second-Hand bookstores aren't accepting books anymore, that people are essentially unloading their lives, and the bookstores are overwhelmed and they can't take any more donations.

MATTHEW BROOKER: Yeah, that's what I found. Because shipping costs have gone up so much, I realised it was going to cost an awful lot to ship my stuff to the U.K. So I looked around, see if I could offload some books, and the first few bookshops I called all said they'd been so inundated with donations that they just couldn't take anymore. I know that's true. Even just, you know, not just for books, but for other things. In my development, it is kind of, you know, mass residential developments, kind of 16 towers, all 50 storeys high. And there are all sort of local WhatsApp groups for residents and people there are constantly trying to kind of give things away. And it's just another sign of how many people are bailing out from it.

MG: And you're one of those people. Why, after so long there in that city, have you decided to leave?

MATTHEW BROOKER: I it's a combination of reasons. I mean, it's not just the national security law. I do have personal reasons as well. I've got a three year old boy and my mother's 86. It kind of seemed like a good time. But the you know, the change in in the nature of Hong Kong society is a big deal for me. I mean, to be honest with you, I think the foreigners here, we we do have a privileged position in Hong Kong's treats people like me pretty well I think especially where we're kind of serving Hong Kong's traditional functions of being an international financial and business centre. We're kind of very welcome here and I kind of enjoyed that for most of the time I was here. And now it, it, it feels like it makes me feel a little bit guilty when I look at the local population who've had so many of their freedoms stripped away. I mean, frankly, it doesn't necessarily impinge on me. I'm, many journalists have been threatened here and put under pressure. I'm not one of them. I don't feel that I need to leave. But, you know, it's I'm more kind of thinking, you know, is this the place where I want my children to grow up?

MG: Is your sense that the government in Beijing cares that the city's status as a global business hub as as a vital business hub that it's been for so long that that's been eroded as well?

MATTHEW BROOKER: I think this is very hard to tell. I mean, it's very hard to know what the leaders in Beijing are thinking. What they say officially, of course, is always that Hong Kong's status as an international financial centre is still strong and robust and freedoms have been preserved and so on. I feel, you know, they have to know that it's suffered some serious damage. I personally think that, you know, it's clear from from the policies and the way that they've operated and intervened in Hong Kong in the last two years, that for them, security trumps everything and they're prepared to pay any price to make sure that Hong Kong is under control. And that's that's the overriding consideration for Beijing, I think.

MG: Just briefly, if you were to go back to Hong Kong in five years, what do you think the city would look like?

MATTHEW BROOKER: I think it's it's on a very rapid fast track towards convergence with mainland society. And if I even when I come back in five years time or whenever I expect it to resemble mainland China ever more.

MG: Matthew, it's good to speak with you. Thank you very much.

MATTHEW BROOKER: Thank you.

MG: Matthew Brooker just marked 30 years since he first moved to Hong Kong. He's getting set to leave that city. He's a columnist for Bloomberg Opinion. My next guest is a Chinese Canadian born in Edmonton who moved to Hong Kong a decade ago. Dennis Kwok served as an elected member of the Legislative Council there in 2020 after butting heads with the Chinese Communist Party as a pro-democracy lawmaker. He was ousted and deemed disloyal to the Chinese government. Dennis Kwok is now senior research fellow at Harvard Kennedy School. Asch Centre for Democratic Governance and Innovation. Dennis Kwok, good morning to you.

DENNIS KWOK: Good morning.

MG: Just briefly, what were the events that I mean, when you hear of this exodus now and people leaving? What were the events that led you leaving Hong Kong?

DENNIS KWOK: I think for a lot of pro-democracy lawmaker, we didn't really have a lot of choice, especially especially if you've got a young family and, you know, like a lot of Hong Kong people, you know, we are not used to living under an authoritarian state. And Hong Kong, unfortunately, has become an authoritarian state where, you know, every word you speak, every post you put on Facebook, or if you have a history of working on human rights, rule of law and democratic issues, then you are at risk of being arrested by the Hong Kong police for national security offences.

MG: Is there a pro-democracy movement left in the wake of all of those arrests and the arrests keep coming?

DENNIS KWOK: No, I don't think so. I think they have successfully dismantled their entire Democratic camp and opposition members. I think a lot of them will be spending a long time in jail because they are banking on prosecuting and convicting them. And I think a lot of the civil society that we used to see in Hong Kong, which is one of the most vibrant civil societies in the Asia-Pacific region, has now been completely dismantled. And a lot of the people I know has left Hong Kong.

MG: You heard Matthew describing the state of the city. From your perspective, what's been lost in the last few years?

DENNIS KWOK: Our freedom has been lost. The rule of law is in tatters. And, you know, Hong Kong people used to love our city because we are free and also we are free to travel and because of the zero coded policy that was imposed by the central government. You know, we've lost one of the most precious things about Hong Kong is the interconnectivity between Hong Kong and the rest of the world. So Hong Kong people are now not free physically to travel anywhere without having to deal with the hard quarantine measures. And I don't see that going away, because if you look at how they do things in Shanghai, you know, I think I'm afraid that the same kind of treatment will be administered in Hong Kong as well.

MG: What were you hoping to achieve when you were elected as a lawmaker in Hong Kong?

DENNIS KWOK: You know, for us moderate Democrats, we only ever had one goal, which is to preserve one country, two systems under the basic law. And we've always worked within the boundaries of the basic law. And we want full democracy for all the Hong Kong people, as promised by Beijing, to the Hong Kong people pursuant to the basic law. And that was our constitution. That was our belief. And for us Democrats, we've always just wanted this thing to work. One country, two system, the promise made by Beijing to Hong Kong that we have the high degree of autonomy. But all those promises are now broken. And I think the world will now know what it means to sign a piece of paper with the Chinese Communist Party. They would simply not respect the freedom and autonomy of people like us in Hong Kong.

MG: How quickly did you realise that that goal that you had, that ambition you had, was going to run into a brick wall?

DENNIS KWOK: You know, I remember very clearly I was one of the leaders of the Democrats in the legislature. And when John Lee and the Hong Kong government proposed the extradition bill, I remember very clearly I called up John Lee to say, what are you thinking? This is going to be a disaster for Hong Kong. You better come over to the legislature and explain what what is going on. And I remember at that meeting it was a private meeting, by the way, attended by some of my colleagues and myself. We told him, look, this is crazy. You can't do this extradition bill. It's going to kill Hong Kong. But he just struck it off as if we don't. You know, our comments are just rubbish. And I remember after the 1 million people protests and the big fight before the Legislative Council for the extradition bill, we had a private meeting with Carrie Lam, where some of my colleagues pleaded with her to say, Why don't you just withdraw the bill? Withdraw the bill for a judge led enquiry, you can still pull Hong Kong from the brink of disaster, but she refused. She was so arrogant in that meeting and she said that she has done nothing wrong and that she's going to just continue and refuse to withdraw the bill. And some of my colleagues who pleaded with her are now in jail, facing the national security law charges.

MG: Arrogant or being controlled directly by China? I mean, this idea of of one country, two systems sounded great. But to a lot of people, especially in, you know, the rear view mirror, they saw the concerns right from the moment that it was it was announced.

DENNIS KWOK: Yeah, I think, you know, the Hong Kong people are not naive that of course the central people's government will have certain degree of control over Hong Kong affairs. But for the most part, especially in the early years of the Han, after the handover, we saw that the Hong Kong people were largely left alone and that we were able to run most of our domestic affairs without interference from the central government.

MG: This idea, this idea that you don't want to kill the goose that lays the golden egg.

DENNIS KWOK: Yeah, but I think the calculations really change under siege. And I think after he came to power, he issued a the white paper by the state council saying that they have comprehensive jurisdiction over everything in Hong Kong. That means that they control everything. By the way, that completely changed the constitutional structure of Hong Kong. And then he went about really exercising that comprehensive jurisdiction. And as a lawmaker living through that period, we really saw how Beijing's policy change that went from staying back in the in the background to really coming to the forefront and telling what our officials and the chief executive should do. And I think the extradition saga was, again, as you said, by the by the May or June of 2019, Carrie Lam couldn't back down because Beijing told her, you have to double down on this. We are telling you to do this and you cannot withdraw the bill without our consent. And so she got herself into a position where she is stuck with this political mess, but she cannot back down because of Beijing.

MG: We just have a couple of minutes left. I want to ask you two quick things. One is, I was going to ask about the role of Canada in supporting the pro-democracy movement. But in some ways, you've said the pro-democracy movement doesn't exist right now. What should Canada be doing in the face of this?

DENNIS KWOK: I think Canada, you know, as a as the country where I was born, I'm very proud of Canada for its rule of law, as freedom is democracy. And a lot of people in Hong Kong would yearn to living in a society like Canada. And, you know, I think the Canadian government should do more to welcome Hong Kong people and not just for the sake of helping them. You know, the Hong Kong people are talented, they're resourceful, they're educated, they're hardworking, and they will make a positive contribution to Canadian society.

MG: Last thing just briefly. As you have referred to Hong Kong as our city and my city, can you ever imagine going back to Hong Kong?

DENNIS KWOK: You know, Chinese politics could change very quickly. And, you know, we we will keep hope because my colleagues, my dear friends, are in jail in Hong Kong and we'll never forget about them. And it will always be our home, always be our city. You know, nothing would ever change that.

MG: But until then, you can't go back. There's not a chance that you will go back.

DENNIS KWOK: You know, I'm very happy working with, you know, academia here and also doing work that I care about. On rule of law, human human rights and democratic development. And I can't go back and do that work and not be at risk myself. So, you know, for now, I think, you know, I am happy doing what I'm doing.

MG: Dennis, thank you very much.

DENNIS KWOK: Thank you very much.

MG: Dennis Kwok, a lawyer and senior research fellow at Harvard Kennedy School's Centre for Democratic Governance and Innovation. Well, coming right up after your regional update.

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President Putin thought he could cause division, but he has achieved the opposite. We stand here today more united than ever and with the ambition of strengthening our bonds even more.

MG: Finland and Sweden are both moving towards NATO's membership. The Kremlin is not pleased. More on what could be the end of decades of neutrality. Coming up in 90 seconds. My name is Matt Galloway. This is the current on CBC Radio One. Stay with us.

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Finland moves to join NATO; and parents alarmed at baby formula shortage.

Guests: Krista Mikkonen, Bessma Momani, Michelle Pensa Branco

MG: Hi. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. NATO could be about to grow by two. Finland's president announced yesterday the country will apply to join the alliance, calling it an historic day. Sweden's ruling party announced that it will support a bid as well. The applications will go to each country's parliament for approval, then must be ratified by all 30 NATO members in both cases. This move ends decades of neutrality, and in response, the Kremlin has threatened consequences. But Finnish President Sauli Niinisto says that Russia only has itself to blame.

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They are ready to attack the neighbouring country. But if that would be the case that we join, what my response would be that you caused this. Look at the mirror.

MG: Joining me now is Krista Mikkonen, Finland's minister of the interior minister Macon. And good morning.

KRISTA MIKKONEN: Good morning. Oh, actually, good afternoon.

MG: Afternoon to you. Why does Finland want to join NATO?

KRISTA MIKKONEN: The main reason is that security policy, security environment of Finland and Europe and the whole world has changed. And that's also thanks to Russia, Russia's invasion to Ukraine that has brought it has changed the security environment dramatically, totally. And that's why now Finland is making this decision to apply for NATO membership, to make sure that we can have we can strengthen our own security and the security and stability of support across the region and a whole lot of Europe. That's the reason.

MG: Within your country, how popular is this idea of Finland joining NATO's?

KRISTA MIKKONEN: It has very strong popular support and that has changed. Actually there is test. After the Russia invasion to Ukraine the public opinion changed dramatically. And now I think the latest polls are saying that it's more than 75% of the Finnish people wants us to join NATO.

MG: So it has huge consequences in terms of what has been a long standing policy of neutrality. Finland has remained non-aligned for four decades now. Is neutrality no longer serving Finland?

KRISTA MIKKONEN: Oh, I think that's what has happened and what they have seen. That's what Russia can do. That has changed our opinion. Finland has been a part of the Western world for decades. And of course, after, say, being in European Union, that's changed a lot. But we wanted to stay away from defence unions and other unions. But now we see that now because what has happened in the security environment, for us it's better to be a member of NATO. And I think this. This is a very common thought in Finland. It's not only fpr politicians, but it's more that what the Finnish people want us to do. And actually I must say that this change started within the Finnish people. They were the ones who changed the opinion first, and it was the politician who came later on noting that our public opinion has changed.

MG: What specifically has changed after the invasion of Ukraine? Does Finland feel that that it is under threat, that it could be next?

KRISTA MIKKONEN: I think what has changed, I don't think that people are thinking that the Russian will attack us. And I also said it's a common situation with the Finish [unintelligible] is very stable. And we don't see that we are under any immediate, immediate military threat. But what we have seen is that Russia is not following international rules any longer. And they what we have been seeing in Ukraine that they say make a military attack detonator maker in country. That's, of course, something that also in Finland haspeople thinking the whole situation and our security involvement. And, of course, what we have seen that's if you are NATO member you have this very strong support with your alliance countries. And I think that's what you just want to be sure that if something would happen to us, we have friends who will come and help us.

MG: How important is it that it's not just Finland that is considering joining Natal, but Sweden as well?

KRISTA MIKKONEN: And I think that Finland could have done the decision itself also. But of course, it's much better for us and for the whole north northern Europe and the Nordic countries that we are now pulling together, Finland and Sweden and joining in NATO because we have had a very strong relationship with Sweden for a long time and also our defence policy has very much common. So I think it's better that way. But we are we are both countries, Finland and Sweden now applying to NATO membership.

MG: Vladimir Putin has said we will react to the expansion of military infrastructure to these countries, that the expansion of NATO's is a problem. What sort of reaction? Are you bracing for in terms of retaliation from Russia?

KRISTA MIKKONEN: Well, of course, we are prepared for every kind of reactions, but that's nothing new. I mean, our [unintelligible] this has been prepared for different kind of attacks, the high priest and cyber attacks, any kind of information, propaganda and things like that. But now, of course, we have we have elevated our our level how we can uncertainty even kind of a high priest and cyber attacks. And we have no fears and we are prepared for these kind of attacks because we have heard those words, and we we know that fears and all of this kind of international tention. And, of course, we know that Russia has told us that it would be better if we did not apply for NATO but that's our our own decision. And, of course, we are prepared for these kind of attacks.

MG: Just finally, as this war in Ukraine drags on, what do you think joining NATO sends in terms of a message to Vladimir Putin? What does it tell him?

KRISTA MIKKONEN: I think Putin has noticed how how the whole EU system countries have how strongly they have been united and how how they have respond together that we can't stand that kind of behaviour. And I think that was a surprise for Putin. And I think also that now that Finland and Sweden wants to be a member of NATO, that have been a surprise for him as well. And I think like our president has said, he can look at [unintelligible] because it was Russia who has caused this situation that and the situation that NATOwill have new members.

MG: And you don't worry that this could further provoke him. That this could further provoke Russian actions.

KRISTA MIKKONEN: Well. The Finland and Russia are neighbouring countries, and we have been neighbours for a long time and we will be. So of course we need to make sure that we have this kind of a normal day life is just going okay and our authorities can have their cooperation what they have also always had like [unintelliglbe] or the police or other authorities. But we are independent country and Finland can make its own decisions. And now it's time for us to to make this kind of decision that we are we will be a member of NATO.

MG: Krista Mikkonen, thank you for speaking with us.

KRISTA MIKKONEN: Thank you.

MG: Christian Mikkonen is Finland's minister of the interior. As we discussed, the Kremlin has already threatened reciprocal action if Finland and Sweden do move ahead with NATO membership. It has not defined what that action would be just yet. Bessma Momani is a political science professor at the University of Waterloo, senior fellow at the Centre for International Governance Innovation, Bessema, good morning to you.

BESSMA MOMANI: Good morning.

MG: What sort of win would it be for NATO to have these two previously non-aligned countries as members?

KRISTA MIKKONEN: Oh, definitely a win. Of course, not only does it sort of expand its geographical scope, but, you know, both Finland and Sweden have very developed and modern army units and one has about 200,000 troops ready to be mobilised, 100,000 reservists. It's a very well trained army in a Sweden is well known for its airforce. So there's a you know, contributions are not just in terms of political clout, but also militarily as well.

MG: What about the response from Russia? Again this morning, Vladimir Putin is saying that the expansion of NATO's is a problem and says that there will be some sort of response. What sort of response do you expect to see?

KRISTA MIKKONEN: Well, first of all, this is really of Russia's own making, really by invading Ukraine. But those responses, you've heard everything from this very kind of miles stretch, if you can call it that, about nuclear activity. But certainly I think we're going to see more in the hybrid, more in the cyber space. This is something that the Russians held back, I think, in the past few months. We thought we'd see more of it. But I think this is where it's going to go. It doesn't have the troops, frankly, to sort of create another frontier. So I don't think we're going to see anything militarily, you know, develop on on the Finnish border. But certainly cyber is something that we know that the Russians really excel in and find it to be a very cheap and useful tool for disinformation, which it's been, again, perfecting over the years. So that's where I think we're going to see mostly the response from Russia.

MG: Can I go back to what you just said earlier, which was the relatively mild threat of nuclear activity? This is something that Russia has been warning of, that this could lead to a risk of a nuclear war.

KRISTA MIKKONEN: Indeed. I mean, I think that's one big plus. Of course, obviously, with nuclear, one always has to be very careful. But I don't think it's moralistic. And I think most almost to say that Russia, despite all its problems, that really isn't going to go to that degree. But, you know, it is, of course, a threat that it will dangle because it is so extremely, you know, frightful, so very sort of it.

MG: Ukraine has for a long time been pushing to join Naito but has not been successful. Why would these bids from Sweden and Finland be received more warmly than a bid from Ukraine?

KRISTA MIKKONEN: Yeah. This has been a complaint, of course, of the donkey and others, you know, really. Why why are we rushing to, you know, include to other members when Ukraine's been knocking on the door? Well, frankly, and quite simply, you know, the fact that Natal has this important article of of Article five, where any country should be seeing an attack, an attack on all means that it's really difficult for Ukraine to join. They don't when it's hot, this land is occupied when it's effectively at war with Russia, which it hasn't been technically since 2014. So, you know, I think it's going to be very difficult for NATO's members to agree to, you know, sign on into a war just by virtue of Ukraine wanting to join because of that very element that it is an occupied country and effectively at war with Russia. So it's not going to. And I think that as long as Russia has, you know, troops on the ground, which in many ways I think is part of a strategy, it knows. But, you know, members are not going to want to include Ukraine.

MG: Over the course of this war and perhaps even before, there has been a narrative that has been floated out there that NATO's expansion after the Cold War provoked Russia into, for example, this war with Ukraine. Do you worry that further expansion risks escalating the conflict between Russia and the West?

KRISTA MIKKONEN: Of course, and has to be concerned. But I think really this is all a rush of making. I mean, you just have to look at the history of and the chronology of all this. I mean, just look at the support within Finland and Sweden, which, you know, your previous guest noted. These are two countries that had really, you know, held on to their so-called neutrality. They had no interest in joining, made it in any sense of the word. And in fact, some of the polls that were done in January repeat that. But as soon as Russia invaded Ukraine, the fear within both these countries that, you know, this old empire, which of course, the there's been great history there of Russian war and occupation as well of these countries that it would, you know, fear very much Russia wanting to attack them. So you saw, in fact, the polls reversed completely 25% of the population, you know, previous to the invasion, you know, interested in joining too now 75% interested in joining. So there's a real, I think, bottom up reasoning. And again, even Sweden, you know, this Social Democratic Party, which, you know, is very much against in expansion, it's keen on joining now. So this is really totally from from Putin. And Russia is making I mean, it shouldn't expect anything less than that.

MG: Bassma, good to speak with you. Thank you very much.

BESSMA MOMANI: Thank you.

MG: Bessma Momani is a political science professor at the University of Waterloo. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One. I'm Matt Galloway. A baby formula shortage has become a nightmare for parents in the United States and in some places in this country as well. Across the U.S., 40% of the formula is out of stock. Parents are driving for hours to get to drugstores, trying to order it from overseas. Doctors are warning people not to try to make their own formula from online recipes. Last week, the CEO of one of the formula manufacturers said the shortage is expected to continue through the year. Michelle Penser Branco is a lactation consultant, co-founder of Safely Fed Canada. Michele, good morning.

MICHELLE PENSA BRANCO: Good morning.

MG: Thanks for being here. What is behind this shortage in the United States? As I said, it is alarming to so many parents.

MICHELLE PENSA BRANCO: It is. And lots of parents in the United States are facing a variety of different circumstances. So that's the core of what's happening in the U.S. is sort of a perfect storm, convergence of ongoing tightness in this market in general. There aren't a lot of manufacturers, supply chain disruptions that have been happening since the beginning of the pandemic. And then kind of a12 punch that happened with the closure of a really major plant in Sturgis, Michigan, because of safety concerns. So in the U.S., we really saw a number of factors come together to surge into quite a significant shortage that's being noticed by consumers across the country.

MG: What do you talk about the state of the market? I had read something last week. The three companies make almost all of the formula in the United States.

MICHELLE PENSA BRANCO: Yes, the three companies make almost all of the formula in the United States and in Canada because we import all of our formula from the US. So the makeup of the U.S. market is really reflected in Canada. We just have different circumstances in terms of how we use it.

MG: Why do we import all of the formula, all of our formula from the United States?

MICHELLE PENSA BRANCO: That's a good question. Then really, it has to do with the size of the market. It's a really specialised product and it also is profitable because it is well supported in terms of marketing. So for companies who get into certain kinds of parts of the market, particularly in the hospital markets, it costs a lot of money, a lot of marketing force to get into those market, into those places. But once you're in there, you really have sort of a bit of a monopoly. So that's why we have a real concentration of the number of manufacturers. Even globally, we're not talking about a huge number of companies.

MG: Again, you hear these stories of families who are desperate, trying to figure out how they're going to get the formula to feed their kids, driving for hours, trying to get to the stores that might have it. What are you most concerned about happening in the United States?

MICHELLE PENSA BRANCO: What I'm most concerned about in the United States is really that the, it's twofold. One is, is that for standard formulas, while we're seeing shortages, we're not seeing shortages that are likely to result in widespread lack of product availability there. There's products circulating for parents who are using speciality formulas, like hypoallergenic formulas or even for medical for other medical conditions, things like amino acid formulas. The particularly the plant that shut down in Michigan makes a really significant proportion, if not all of the formulas in that category in some in some cases. So those parents are facing a really tough time. Primarily, the concern is, is that parents who have fewer resources are also more likely to be using formula in the first place. So what we're looking at is a really unfair distribution of the amount of stress and distress that the families are facing with parents who are or who are lower income or racialized, more likely to face these kinds of problems.

MG: And are there alternatives, other ways to ensure some sort of supply for those specialised formulas? Or, as you said, you know, one of those factories that tends just to make most of it that's available on the market.

MICHELLE PENSA BRANCO: Yeah. So so I think one of the things we can really look at from a system perspective, how much are we using these formulas, how much are we using them appropriately and how much are we using them on a just in case or on a trial basis? A study out of the U.K. So between 2026 and 2016 saw that there was about a tenfold increase in the use of hypoallergenic formulas. For example, in their in their population. We didn't see a tenfold increase in the likelihood of dairy allergy in that in those kids during that period. So at least some of this is marketing and and overuse. So we really kind of look at making sure, particularly during these type periods, that we're using these formulas appropriately and where we can use human milk either through supporting parents to breastfeed or using donor human milk through milk banks or through milk sharing. That should always have been and should continue to be our first choice.

MG: What effect is this having here in Canada? Again, anecdotally, you're hearing stories certainly from parents who are worried that what they're seeing south of the border could very easily come here, particularly, as you said, off the top, given. The fact that we don't make formula here. What are you seeing already?

MICHELLE PENSA BRANCO: What we're seeing is parents who are using those hypoallergenic formulas have, for weeks, already been having difficulty getting them. They're expensive formulas and it's not actually uncommon for stores to have them out of stock or to have limited stock at the best of times. So those parents are really having a hard time. They're having the most success from what I can I can see from either contacting the manufacturer directly or from connecting with members with health care and public health in their community to find out which stores have stock and where they can get them. For other parents, I think is just creating an additional layer of anxiety, even though we can realistically say that the overwhelming majority of them will find the exact same things on the shelves as they always have. I think we can do a better job of communicating to them that whatever formula for infants is on the shelf is just fine for their baby if they don't have any health concerns. And that's true for most people who are using it. And also doing a better job of saying, you know, if you're using this product casually, if you're becoming reliant on it out of convenience. Understand that sometimes the supply is going to vary. And so, so, so making those decisions based on not becoming entirely reliant on a product that may or may not always be available.

MG: This last point is just systemically. What does something like this tell you about what we in this country need to do to safeguard supplies of infant formula for those who need it the most?

MICHELLE PENSA BRANCO: Yeah, well, I think one thing that we're not talking a whole lot about, because we're not facing a real shortage, we have a national emergency supply of infant formula which gets deployed when there are emergencies and babies require it. We also have very strong breastfeeding rates in this country where we use a lot less infant formula overall and we keep working on that. One of the challenges has been that we've really, really taken a really significant hit to the availability of services during the pandemic, and parents still need help. So I think if we can prevent the need and the dependency on those commercial products to begin with, we'll be much better off in terms of any kind of disruptions. And that's very often been the lesson of the last of the last couple of years has been the more self-reliant people can be, the less help that they need from emergency services and the more stable they can feel within their own homes. And finally, I think one of the key things we need to do is stop letting the formula companies run these conversations. I think one of the pieces that we really need to do is, is address the regulatory perspective, the regulatory piece, and even just start implementing the regulations that are already in place and enforcing them in terms of the kind of marketing claims that they're allowed to make.

MG: Michelle, thank you for this.

MICHELLE PENSA BRANCO: Great. Thank you very much,.

MG: Michel Pensa Branco is a lactation consultant and co-founder of Safely Fed Canada. That's The Current for this Monday is up next. Before we go, the victim of one of this country's most notorious miscarriages of justice died in an Alberta hospital this weekend. David Milgaard spent 23 years in prison for a rape and murder he did not commit. His name was cleared in 1997. He's been working as an advocate to prevent similar wrongful convictions. His story, of course, immortalised by the tragically hip and one of their biggest songs will leave you with hip white kings. I Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current.

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