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The AIH Transcript for April 19th, 2022

DAVE SEGLINS: Hello, I'm Dave Seglins.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight

DS: Sterner stuff. As Russia launches a long-anticipated ground assault on eastern Ukraine, an advisor to President Zelensky's government says they'll only be able to hold out if allies like Canada provide weapons to match Ukrainian resolve.

CH: Mission not quite accomplished. A Canadian charity helping Afghans escape their country says it's been forced to end its rescue efforts -- in part because of government red tape.

DS: Something to watch over me. We'll hear from a researcher who helped expose the widespread use of Pegasus spyware to target civil society members in Catalonia -- who says people's fears about the tech are altogether justified.

CH: His business was finding a long-lost flower -- and business is blooming. After years of searching, our guest shares his growing amazement at the rediscovery of a South American wildflower long thought extinct.

DS: That's the way the bear bounces. Our guest has seen bears in her backyard before, but she'd never seen two of them wrestling on her trampoline -- and so she followed their lead, and sprang into action.

CH: And… calling in a flavour. Researchers in Japan are launching an assault on sodium -- with a pair of computerized chopsticks they say will make food taste more savoury. Although I'd take that with a grain of salt.

CH: As It Happens, the Tuesday edition. Radio that knows to everything there is a seasoning.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Donbas Battle, Pegasus Revelations, Bear Trampoline

Donbas Battle

Guest: Tymofiy Mylovanov

CH: The battle for Donbas is underway. After a weeks-long build-up, Russia has launched its effort to seize control of Eastern Ukraine. The fight there promises to be different from the one for Kyiv -- which, so far, the Ukrainian military has successfully defended. And the attack won't just test Ukraine's soldiers -- it will test the willingness of their foreign allies to supply them for the fight. Tymofiy Mylovanov is one of the people helping to manage Ukraine's defensive wish-list. Mr. Mylovanov is an economics professor, a former Ukrainian minister, and now an advisor to the Ukrainian government. We reached him just outside Kyiv.

DS: Professor Mylovanov, how are Ukrainians responding to this new wave of Russian attacks in eastern Ukraine?

TYMOFIY MYLOVANOV: That has been expected for quite some time. And even though perhaps not everything is in the news, many of us have friends who are in the military, and we know where they're being shipped and relocated. And we hear stories of a gradual increase in intensity of fighting in the East. So in that sense, it's not really the news for Ukrainians, but it is. It is very unpleasant. It's, in my view, a second stage of the war. The first one was the battle for Kyiv. And Russia will push as hard as it can, and we need two things: we need morale, and we need weapons and ammunition. And so, morale is there. We need just to make sure that we have heavy weapons and we need enough rounds of ammunition, and sometimes it's lacking.

DS: This is a massive front, over 480 kilometres, with tens of thousands additional Russian troops, we're hearing. What do you think Russia's goal is in Eastern Ukraine?

TM: To achieve some kind of victory or something they can claim to be a decisive battle that they have won. We can look into the history of Russia's behaviour in Ukraine, and we have seen how they negotiated the agreements, cease-fire Agreements, Minsk-1 one and Minsk-2, in 2014 and 2016. What they did, they achieved some success. They encircled Ukrainian troops, and they killed many of them. And after that, they negotiated from the provision of power. And here they can try to attempt the same. They can try to surround the Ukrainian troops starting from Izyum and going south. And that way, cutting off about 40,000-plus best of Ukrainian troops and try to kill as many of them as possible. Now, I don't think that plan is going to work for pretty much similar reasons. The Battle of Kyiv didn't work out for Russia the way they hoped to, but it's sure to be brutal, and many people, civilians and military are to die, unfortunately.

DS: How prepared is the Ukrainian military to defend its positions and to be able to counterattack?

TM: They're very prepared. They have been preparing for weeks now. But we need more ammunition. We really do. It's not… It's not just a symbolic or a political issue. There was a threat for the Battle of Kyiv that we would not be able to get fuel to our tanks or something like that. That has been resolved. This time, I think the real critical aspect is to get enough military equipment and specific ones. It's artillery, it's… it's round for The artillery. It's rockets for that type of artillery, which Ukraine has. Tanks, armoured vehicles. So these are very specific needs. Essentially, you know, if you have this artillery and you have this munition and… and it's actually modern and high-precision, then you can keep Russians at some distance. Otherwise, you can engage them in maybe, you know, two kilometres, five kilometres distance, whereas they can engage you at 30. And so, they will be bombing everything out of Ukrainian troops and then attacking. So that means just simply more people will die.

DS: Who do you think will supply Ukraine tanks?

TM: Wow, that's a real question. I wish Europe would. The Middle East actually can… could. And Canada and the U.S. But, you know, I don't think that will be there in time.

DS: What do you mean?

TM: Well, you know, even if we get a political decision today, it will take a week or sometimes two weeks for the bureaucracy when you know, at the most… you know, at the highest level of expediency. And the battle is happening now. And I think that's in some sense, it's… it's really what… what is very painful to… And I kind of resolved myself, but it's always painful to… to know it and to observe it. Help comes, and it's, you know, it's… it's good and quality help, but it's always a little bit too late. It's like with javelins and LAWs and stingers. Had it been shipped in the first days of the war, then many more people would have been alive today.

DS: Do you think decision-makers in Europe and North America understand the price of delay?

TM: I've seen… you know, I've been in the politics. I've been in the first cabinet of Zelensky. I've negotiated inside the government and internationally. And the way the politics does, you know, there's the saying that democracies, it's pretty bad, but it's the best thing we've got. And it's true. You know, it's not pretty. Everyone is… not everyone, but you know, many, many politicians, you know, and you can't blame them. You know, many, many politicians, they are politicians. They are appealing to many constituencies, and they are very risk-averse, and they need evidence, you know? They respond after Bucha, after Mariupol, after Kyiv. Bad things have to happen for help to be increased. So this is very frustrating. But, you know, it's like with sanctions. You know, had this level of sanctions been introduced in 2014 after the Crimea annexation, we wouldn't probably have seen today's war, you know? But it is what it is with the politics.

DS: How do you maintain your hope?

TM: Well, by doing every day what I do best, you know? And I think everyone is doing that. You know, business owners are trying to run their businesses. Teachers are trying to teach. I speak to you, but I also work on policy questions daily. We work. We fight. We resist. We push harder. I think that's the way, and I think we find strength and hope in work and fight.

DS: I want to say thank you for joining us today, and… and take care.

TM: Thank you.

CH: Tymofiy Mylovanov is an economics professor and an advisor to the Ukrainian government. We reached him outside Kyiv.

[Music: Indie rock]

Pegasus Revelations

Guest: Ron Deibert

CH: Pegasus is extremely powerful spyware that can transform your phone into a listening device and much more. It's been used by repressive regimes around the world to target dissenters, journalists, politicians, and their families. In this week's New Yorker Magazine, Ronan Farrow reports on new revelations about how widely Pegasus has been used -- revealing that everyone from activists in Catalonia, Spain, to officials inside Boris Johnson's government has been targeted. A lot of those revelations come courtesy of The Citizen Lab at the University of Toronto -- an academic research lab focused on the study of digital threats to civil society. We reached Citizen Lab Director Ron Deibert in Toronto.

DS: Ron, if you slip Pegasus on my phone, what would that enable you to do?

RON DEIBERT: I'd be able to do virtually everything that you could do as the owner of that device and more. I'd be able to read all of your emails and text messages. I'd be able to look at all your camera roll photos. I'd be able to turn on the audio capture and the video system. So, effectively turning that phone into a silent wiretap. I'd be able to track your location, of course. I'd even be able to plant falsely incriminating data on your phone or other tainted material to make it look like you did something that you did not. So, very powerful, very invasive technology.

DS: On this show, we've spoken to others who've been targeted by the same spyware, including a prominent journalist in Azerbaijan. But you've released new information this week suggesting that people connected to the independence movement in the Catalonia region of Spain were targeted. Tell us about that. How extensively was it used?\

RD: Well, this is by far the single largest number of victims in any case that the Citizen Lab has done research on over the last 10 years. Numerous Catalans were put under surveillance, including members of the European Parliament, members of the Catalan government, every Catalan president since 2010, either in-office or after retiring. Lawyers of prominent politicians and others had their phones hacked. Even friends and family members, we discovered, had… had their phones hacked. So this appears to be a very extensive espionage operation to place much of Catalan civil society and its government under surveillance.

DS: Who do you think was behind it?

RD: Well, we don't link or attribute this operation to any particular government agency, but we do know that the NSO Group and Candiru, the two companies whose technology was behind the spying operation, only sell to government entities. And there's a lot of circumstantial evidence that it is Spain. Obviously, the targets would be of interest, mostly to Spain. It'd be highly unlikely that another government outside the country would undertake this type of extensive and reckless spying operation inside Spain.

DS: Now, Pegasus is a product of NSO Group, an Israeli company. In Ronan Farrow's New Yorker article, Someone from NSO Group claims its clients include virtually all European countries. Does that seem accurate to you?

RD: Well, we certainly know of several European countries that are clients of Pegasus based on our… our data. So, you know, based on the evidence of people who have been hacked. I do believe that there are some government clients in Europe. But more importantly, NSO Group is definitely pushing for that marketplace. They want to give credibility to their sales by pointing to the fact that democracies are able to purchase it as well. The fact of the matter is that virtually every country has security agencies, intelligence agencies. They have a big appetite for this stuff. It's very addictive, if you will, to be on the other side of this, as you can imagine being able to spy on people in such an intrusive manner. And so, that's why we have, and others like us have been, identifying and unearthing all of these cases of abuse worldwide because there simply are no controls over the industry.

DS: Is there any indication that the Canadian government has used these surveillance tools?

RD: Well, we know the Canadian government has a very well-equipped signals intelligence agency and various law enforcement agencies that do hacking. We also know that they often procure this type of technology, not as far as we know from NSSO group, but from companies like it, presumably. So, we hope that there is enough oversight in this country. [chuckle] I think it could be better, obviously. The fact that Canada is implicated in this marketplace, if not, these companies, I think, suggest that we have a responsibility as a country to try to correct the harms that the Citizen Lab and other groups have identified. And that means taking leadership, coming up with rules around the sector, putting in place sanctions and other export controls like other countries have done.

DS: Well, the U.S. government has put some severe limits on who can do business with NSO.

RD: That's right.

DS: They're blocked from buying technology they need. The New Yorker article suggests that the company may be having financial problems. Is the company behind this Pegasus spyware in trouble?

RD: It certainly seems that way. So these are very lucrative companies. They make, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars. They've been valued at excesses of billions of dollars. However, because of, in part, the reporting of ours and others, you know, the industry has received a black mark. And I think adding to that have been several cases of litigation. Apple has sued NSO Group. Facebook has sued NSO Group. Other companies have joined those lawsuits. And recently, the U.S. Commerce Department put NSO Group on a designated entity list. This is essentially a do not allow business with list. So, those companies cannot do business with American entities and vice versa. And as a result of all of that, the company's bottom line is hurting. And NSO Group has been downgraded. That's great. We'd like to see accountability in this space, but there's a bigger issue here that even if NSO Group folded, another company would emerge in its place or several others. It requires global regulations.

DS: Representatives of Citizen Labs spoke about the NSO Group and Pegasus at the European Parliament today. What message do you hope they were able to get across?

RD: One is that this is not just an authoritarian country problem. We are seeing abuses in the heart of Europe. Secondly, that entities like the European Parliament and the European Union could and should be doing more to regulate and control abuses around this technology. So if you care about civil society and you care about democracy, I believe this is the most urgent issue. People are scared to communicate over their phones, they're worried about being eavesdropped, and I think those are rational fears, frankly, as long as this industry exists.

DS: Ron, we'll leave it there. Thanks so much for speaking with us.

RD: My pleasure. Thank you, Dave.

DS: Bye-bye.

RD: Bye-bye.

CH: Ron Deibert is the Director of the Citizen Lab at the University of Toronto's Munk School.

[Music: Xylophone!!!]

Bear Trampoline

Guest: Rose Waldron

CH: If you have a trampoline in your backyard, the Canada Safety Council suggests you set "three non-negotiable rules": "don't jump onto or off of the trampoline"; "no flips or somersaults"; and "one person at a time." Well, technically, the recent visitors to Rose Waldron's backyard in Coquitlam, B.C., followed those rules. They didn't jump onto the trampoline; they clambered on awkwardly. They didn't flip or somersault. And both of them were on at once, but it's okay -- neither of them is a person. Ms. Waldron got video of two bears wrestling on, and with, her trampoline last week. We reached her at home in Coquitlam.

DS: So Rose, these black bears are not small ones. How was your trampoline holding up after what happened?

ROSE WALDRON: Actually, amazingly, it had no punctures in it. I thought it would be all shredded, the netting, but even the netting has stood up. And they were biting and clawing. [chuckle] It was pretty serious stuff.

DS: Now, for people who haven't seen this video, can you just give us a sense of what this all looked like?

RW: To me, I mean, we were sitting… just sitting down at dinner, and my son noticed one of the bears coming through the yard. And, oh, and looked up. Sure enough, there's a second one. And the littler one… because one was a pretty big black bear, and then the smaller one was more like a brown bear, little bit scruffy looking. So I'm thinking it might have been a mother with her teenage cub. And the little cub guy, he got up first, and he was just kind of sitting on the edge of the trampoline, not inside the net, just kind of trying to figure out how is he going to get inside there? [chuckle] He did. He finally worked his way around till he found the zipper. Now, the mother's on top of the edge, and they're… the two of them, they start wrestling because they have netting between them, right? I don't know if she's like trying to get in over the netting? And she's pushing it, and they're clawing. And I'm like, oh my God!

DS: Now, you're not… you're not surprised to see these bears. [chuckling] You've seen them around?

RW: No, we get quite a few bears in this area because we back on to a river, and we have a lot of mountains around us. So this time of year, the bears are waking up from hibernation and coming looking for food. And… but for the most part, they're… they don't bother us. You know, we don't leave any bear attractants out. We're… you know, the city's really strict about no bird feeders and make sure your garbage is always put away in your garage.

DS: But you wind up with these two bears on the trampoline.

RW: Right.

DS: At what point… at what point do you think, oh, I got to get a video of this?

RW: [chuckle] Well, once I realized they were now both on the trampoline, I thought, yeah, where's my phone, right? Now, once she figures out… or he, whatever, I'm just assuming it's a mother. [laughing] It could be a male.

DS: Right.

RW: She figures out; she goes along the edge and gets inside, too. Now they're both inside. I'd already been, you know, videotaping for a couple of minutes. And I thought this was it. They were just going to go crazy. But she kind of, I think, was tired and wanted to just lay down, and she was annoyed with the kid wanting to wrestle, right? So after about five minutes, I thought, oh, I'm bored, and I turned off my video. [chuckling] I didn't want to tape anymore, but they stayed out there probably a good 20 minutes before I yelled at them.

DS: So, you yelled at them?

RW: I eventually did, yeah. After I sat down and ate dinner, and I got up, and they were still on the trampoline. I opened my window, so I just yelled at them to get going, get off the trampoline, right? And they did. They just looked at me, and okay, got down and left. [laughing]

DS: That's… that's… that's pretty funny for a close encounter. But… but as you say, in Coquitlam, there are rules against, you know, feeding or habituating bears because they can become nuisance bears and then become a bigger problem. But if you've got them hanging out for 20 minutes on your trampoline --

RW: Yeah.

DS: Haven't they come sort of too close for comfort?

RW: They come a lot closer. I have videos of them actually walking right up my patio. Unfortunately, we happen to be on this… we call it Bear Highway. They hear the river, right? So, they're heading towards the water for the salmon. And we happen to be between them, and their home may be up on the hill and the salmon, right? So what are you going to do, right?

DS: So, they're… they're not habituated to you for their food, but --

RW: No.

DS: You think they're going to come back for a little more fun on the trampoline?

RW: Well, maybe. [DS chuckles] We'll look. We'll keep an eye out. [chuckling] It's just a fluke that you catch them, right? I'm sure there's a lot that goes on that we don't even know about when we're not watching.

DS: Well, your video of them wrestling on the trampoline, it's gotten a massive amount of attention. Why do you think people like it so much?

RW: Well, you know, I'm not really sure because, like I said, we were quite used to the bears here. But maybe in other parts of the country, people don't see wildlife like we do on a, you know, daily sometimes basis, right? So… and they look like they're harmless, they look like they're having fun. So why not let them have a little fun, right?

DS: They look like they're harmless.

RW: They look like they are. I wouldn't go out there and try to pet one. [laughing]

DS: Yeah, that's probably a good plan. You said that the trampoline wasn't… wasn't… didn't have holes in it. It didn't… you know, they didn't pierce it with their claws. But I understand there was some damage to the trampoline?

RW: They have these bars at the bottom, and my husband says they are kind of splintered. So, he wants to get new bars and replace it and fix it up. I said, well, you know, our son is almost 17. He hasn't used it in years, and the only reason the trampoline still there is because we have neighbours, kids that come over and play on it. So, if he wants to fix it, that's up to him.

DS: You sure do have neighbours. You've got… you've got mountain neighbours.

RW: Yeah. [chuckling]

DS: Brown Bear. Black Bear.

RW: Yeah.

DS: Rose, thanks very much for telling us a little bit about the video, and… and… and your… your weary neighbours.

RW: Yeah, [both chuckle] thank you.

DS: All right. Take care now.

RW: OK, bye-bye.

DS: Bye-bye.

CH: That was Rose Waldron of Coquitlam, British Columbia. You can check out her video of the bears on our Twitter feed -- just look for: @CBCAsItHappens.

[Music: Bright piano]

Flavour Chopsticks

CH: The last time we covered one of Homei Miyashita's inventions, we were... skeptical. And not just because we're radio people. The Meiji University professor's prototype for a "lickable television" left a bad taste in other people's mouths, too. There was, of course, the issue of hygiene -- exacerbated further by an already-raging pandemic. And there were questions about whether tasteable TV was a thing anybody actually wanted or needed. I mean, I already know The Bachelor is tasteless. But so far, people don't seem quite as keen to change the channel on Mr. Miyashita's latest creation: a pair of flavour-enhancing computerized chopsticks. According to the professor, the chopsticks use a weak electrical current to simulate the sensation of saltiness in our mouths. He claims they can make under-seasoned food taste up to 1.5 times saltier. And that's promising, especially in Japan, where the average diet is about twice as salty as the World Health Organization recommends. Although it remains to be seen how much you'll have to fork out for a pair. And if chopsticks that zap your tongue seem like a blunt instrument, one of Homei Miyashita's collaborators urges you to consider the alternatives. Quote, "If we try to avoid taking less salt in a conventional way, we would need to endure the pain of cutting our favourite food from our diet, or endure eating bland food." Unquote. Well, great point. And of course he didn't sugar-coat it.

[Music: folk]

Part 2: Canadian Vets Afghanistan, South American Wildflower Study

Canadian Vets Afghanistan

Guest: Oliver Thorne

CH: A veterans group says it is giving up its efforts to rescue Afghans who helped Canada's military mission. The Veterans Transition Network announced that it will stop accepting donations on May 2nd and will wind down its operations in Afghanistan in the coming months -- blaming, in part, burnout and bureaucratic red tape. The group says it raised 4.6 million and helped more than 2,000 Afghans escape the country and navigate complicated government paperwork since the Taliban takeover in August 2021. Oliver Thorne is the executive director of the Veterans Transition Network, which ordinarily focuses on the mental health of veterans leaving the service. We reached him in Vancouver.

DS: Oliver, just how difficult a decision was it to give up Veterans Transition Network's rescue efforts in Afghanistan?

OLIVER THORNE: Yeah, you know, it was a really difficult and frustrating decision to make. You know, we've been engaged in supporting these efforts for the past eight months now. And myself, and the team, and the entire organization has become incredibly invested. And particularly because, you know, a big part of the reason we became involved in this campaign is because we saw how veterans unanimously were voicing their support for their interpreter colleagues that we, you know, came into this effort to try and help. Yeah, it's a very difficult decision to make.

DS: What you've achieved is you've… you've managed to get more than 2,000 Afghans out of the country, but this really isn't about declaring mission accomplished, is it?

OT: No, absolutely not. There's still a lot of work to do. And certainly, you know, although we are going to close the public fundraising campaign and over the next number of months, we will wind down our efforts, we've still got a lot to do. We're still going to continue migration support. We're still going to continue advising, you know, the Afghans that we can. That we're in touch with. And where possible, we are going to continue to move people as well. But what has really become clear over the past number of months is that this is now transforming from, you know, a crisis evacuation effort that we stepped in to assist. And this is now becoming what will probably be a months-long migration effort. And, unfortunately, you know, we are still needed here at home. We still have plenty of veterans that need our services, that need our programs, and we have to keep our attention there.

DS: Can you… can you, first of all, take us through the kind of work that you found yourself doing over the last eight months?

OT: Yeah, absolutely. So… so, you know, we were asked to join this effort really as the fundraising and the financial arm. And then, what happened over the course of August is that the situation fell apart far more quickly than any of us had anticipated. We really decided to lean in and not lean out. So what started as a, you know, a 30-day fundraising campaign to support a few hundred people morphed into, at the peak, you know, a safe house network of 7,500 people, you know, helping people to get into the airport in the initial days of the evacuation. And then after that, funding road moves, moving people from Kabul into Pakistan after there was no more option for them to get out on government flights. So, it really went from 30 days to eight months of a very intense effort.

DS: So, why have you come to this decision that you can't continue this anymore?

OT: You know, a number of difficult factors. I think what we've seen is that this is now really transforming into a long-term migration effort. You know, it's not a case anymore of, you know, how many buses, how many convoys can we get together? Where the big challenge exists for the majority of the eligible Afghan population that's applying to come to Canada is in all of the migration, logistics and administration. For example, without being able to do biometric verification in Afghanistan, that means that people need to go to a third country. So now that introduces a whole host of administrative challenges with securing visas, passports, exit visas and all of the wait time and administration that goes along with that. And the unfortunate reality is, you know, we're a small team. We've worked overtime on this for eight months. But… but we really are needed here at home, and we're going to have to begin turning our attention back to our work with veterans.

DS: What would you like the government to do to make this process easier?

OT: Yes, that's… that is the big question. You know, and I've said this before, and I'll say it again because it's absolutely true. You know, we've worked with some really dedicated and hard-working folks in IRCC and Global Affairs Canada, and I want to give a shout out to them and an appreciation for all their efforts. I think where we're really struggling, and although I can't speak for them, I believe where they're struggling as well is we have policy, we have processes that are really not aligned with the reality of the need on the ground for this evacuation. We need to provide better consular support or some level of consular support in Afghanistan, I think. And if possible, we need to waive the need for biometrics or perform those after arrival in Canada because that would then allow for people to skip this step of going to a third country, which introduces that huge administrative burden on the Afghan applicants.

DS: Well, we've seen that in the case of streamlining for people fleeing Ukraine. That.. that the… the biometrics requirement has been waived for minors and for seniors. What do you think it's not being done here?

OT: [sigh] Very difficult to say. And certainly, I could not speak for the government as to why that decision has been made. Obviously, we are, you know, working to help individuals get out of a country that is now, you know, ruled by a terrorist organization that is internationally-sanctioned. So, obviously, there are concerns there. But certainly, you know, you talked about the idea of waiving biometric verification for those over 60 or under 18. That would be an enormous help because we are dealing with, you know, large and extended families here. Anything that the government can do to reduce that burden is going to have a huge effect in helping to get these people out of danger and on the way to Canada.

DS: So what's that like for you and veterans you work with to see how slowly things have moved on this front?

OT: It's been really difficult. It's been very frustrating, it's been very disheartening at times. You know, we're in contact on… on almost a daily basis with veterans who see our name, who are reaching out to us talking about the interpreters that they've been trying to help. Often sending the money, you know, for their living expenses while they wait to come to Canada. So it's been an incredible effort on the part of veterans across the country that I want to recognize. But I know, because again, we're hearing from them that it is deeply frustrating for them as well to watch this go so slowly and to know just how dangerous the situation is for their former colleagues.

DS: Well, Oliver, we'll leave it there. Thank you for your work and… and thank you for speaking with us.

OT: Thank you very much for having me. Much appreciated.

CH: Oliver Thorne is the executive director of the Veterans Transition Network. He was in Vancouver. In the past, the government has said that the closing of Canada's embassy in Kabul has made it difficult to process documents. And we have more on that story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Horns!!!]

Overdoses: Mendicino

CH: As you may have heard on the program last week, it has now been six years since British Columbia declared an overdose emergency. And over those years, the situation has only become more dire. This morning, Public Safety Minister Marco Mendicino spoke to the CBC about the toxic drug crisis. And he was pushed on the issue of access to a safer supply.

[sc]

MARCO MENDICINO: Well, I think we… we are definitely exploring that. And I know that at the federal level, we have looked at and continued to pilot projects around a safe injection. And the question is, how do we expand on that? Where are the areas that we are best positioned to do that? And I know that that is something that my colleague, the Minister of Health, and other colleagues within the government, both federally here in British Columbia, are exploring.

STEPHEN QUINN: You're talking about more than 9,400 people dying in this province in what is supposed to be a medical emergency declared by the province. There is no bigger public safety issue than this in the province. This isn't about a supervised injection site. This is about getting clean drugs into the hands of drug users. Again, how is the federal government going to facilitate that so we can start saving lives?

MM: Well, as I think I've said on a couple of occasions now, we are prepared to work with the government of British Columbia and other governments across the country to establish those evidence-based policies, which put the patient and the user at the very centre of our strategy, using the best science, using the best data, and using the best evidence to protect them. But I would also point out that as, you know, you're… the gentleman that you interviewed at the outset mentioned, we also have to take a double-pronged approach and look very, very closely at providing all of the tools, the resources, and the technology that are required by law enforcement to… to… to go after and take the fight to organized criminals. So, it can't be one or the other. It has to be both. And that's something that we are committed to doing.

SQ: And how much of this is about politics and about anticipating the reaction from the politician… from the opposition, rather? I mean, I guess, who wants to be the government that no doubt the opposition will characterize as the government that gave free heroin and fentanyl to… to drug addicts?

MM: Well, I hope it's not about politics. There's too much of that already. And what we should be looking at are facts. What we should be looking at is evidence. What we should be looking at is the best available science. And that is an approach that we're taking not only with regards to this issue, but it's the approach that we've taken throughout the pandemic. It's the approach that we're taking with regards to climate change. It's the approach we're taking with regards to making sure that we provide the additional support that every family and every Canadian needs at this very crucial time.

[/sc]

CH: That was Minister of Public Safety, Marco Mendicino, speaking with Stephen Quinn this morning on The Early Edition in Vancouver.

[Music: World]

South American Wildflower Study

Guest: Dawson White

CH: Gasteranthus extinctus is no longer extinctus at all. Researchers recently rediscovered the South American wildflower species that had long been presumed to have disappeared. Almost 40 years after it was last seen in the biodiverse Centinela region of Ecuador, a team from the Field Museum of Chicago revisited the area to find it in full bloom. Dawson White is a postdoctoral fellow who co-authored a study on the resurrected flower. We reached him in Chicago.

DS: Dawson, first of all, describe this amazing wildflower for us. What's it look like?

DAWSON WHITE: It really just beams like a spotlight out from the dark understory of… of these cloud forests. This wildflower stands about up to 50 centimetres tall. And so, it's a pretty… it's a pretty big flower that is bright, blazing orange. It's a very visible and very showy and beautiful little plant.

DS: So why didn't scientists think it had gone extinct?

DW: Well, we had thought it was extinct because of the extensive deforestation of the small habitat that it was known from. This area is on the coast of Ecuador, and this wildflower was known from a single mountain ridge called Centinela. However, when it was first reported in 1991, the conclusion, unfortunately, was this area is also totally cut down. All the plants that are there are now dead. So, it was just intuitive to think that Gasteranthus extinctus, this wildflower, was just that -- extinct.

DS: So, what made you and your team decide you wanted to go looking for a species that was supposed to be extinct?

DW: Well, people have also been skeptical from the beginning, right? You're talking about the Andes Mountains. There are microhabitats that simply can't be converted to a flat pasture. Centinela is famous because it was so special, and then it got cut down. But, unfortunately, that's where the story ended. We wanted to continue to write the story on Centinela.

DS: So, you go to Ecuador, you're searching for the flower. How did you feel as you arrived and… and what did you find in terms of the forest?

DW: Initially, you know, the… the amount of deforestation in this whole area was… yeah, very disheartening. You know, it's… it gives you that typical sense of hopelessness to see a very large geographic region the size of North Carolina that, you know, used to be a tropical rainforest had been converted to largely monocultures of bananas. However, on the first day we were there, we drove up to the top of this mountain ridge, and we immediately saw a forest and immediately knew that we had a lot of botanical work to do. And, at that point, we knew that in order to bring Centinela back on the map and in order to promote the continued exploration and, hopefully, conservation of this area, we had to find this wildflower, Gasteranthus extinctus.

DS: Gasteranthus extinctus. I love it!

DW: [chuckling] And the next morning, we did. It was really our first excursion into the forest. We found it within a few hours.

DS: Well, take us back to that moment. What happened when you… when you finally find this long-lost wildflower?

DW: So, I was covered in mites. I was covered and walking through pasture and forest fragments all day. And when I got the news that another team had found it on that first day, it was… it was total elation because this plant is symbolic of the deforestation of the region. And the fact that it's still alive is really going to help us draw attention to the area and, hopefully, conserve it.

DS: So, what does this discovery represent?

DW: This discovery represents a small step forward in our understanding of why certain forests hold unique species. And this is creating some hype for plant explorers, people who are down with their boots in the mud, reaching up, climbing trees, collecting branches, looking at the forms of plants, looking at flowers, sequencing DNA to understand the genetic diversity. And bit by bit, we are uncovering more and more of the spectacular diversity of life on Earth.

DS: I wonder if this is a story of hope or almost despair that it took almost extinction and then a rediscovery to be now talking about, you know, the deforestation and the impact on biodiversity. What do you say?

DW: You know, when when this initial report on Centinela came out, they said everything was gone. They said the forests in Western Ecuador are over 97 per cent gone. And so, I was four years old at that point. Most of my whole life has been living within this age of extinction. And so, I would say that this is absolutely a story of hope. And that's exactly what I felt when we were down there because we were going to really one of the most notorious sites of modern extinction. And the story was wrong. And we don't even fully understand what lives there yet. Members of our team have gone back to Centinela since we were there and since we found Gasteranthus extinctus. And they have recently collected four new species never before described in Western science. So, this is really a moment for elation. You know, there's forests being cut down all over the globe. However, this shows that even very small fragments that have been left behind still contain these species. They're not gone yet. They're not extinct yet.

DS: Well, Dawson, I'm… I'm pleased to learn that Gasteranthus extinctus is not extinct. And… and I appreciate you sharing your… your hope and your findings.

DW: Yeah. Thanks, Dave. I really appreciate your interest in the story.

DS: Bye-now.

DW: Bye.

CH: Dawson White is a postdoctoral fellow of the Field Museum of Chicago -- which is where we reached him.

[Music: Ambient]

Sir Harrison Birtwistle Obit

CH: Over the course of the 1995 Proms, the annual British classical music concert series, BBC viewers had heard Mahler, Vivaldi, Tchaikovsky. Beautiful music, beautifully performed. And then, on the Last Night of the Proms came the world premiere of a piece by Sir Harrison Birtwistle.

[Music: “Panic” by Sir Harrison Birtwistle]

CH: You will not be surprised to hear that piece is called "Panic" -- or that some BBC viewers did. "A disgrace and an insult to the British public," seethed one. "Was somebody strangling a cat?" another asked. Admittedly, it’s a challenging piece of music. But that was the only kind of work that interested Mr. Birtwistle. "The question of accessibility is not my problem," he said. "I have an idea. I express it as clearly as I can. Criticism is someone else's problem.” Sir Harrison Birtwistle -- an experimental composer Britain's Royal Philharmonic Society describes as "a true musical colossus" -- died yesterday. He was 87. Over his long career, Mr. Birtwistle composed everything from solo piano pieces to opera. And his refusal to compromise infuriated and inspired listeners and critics. Those who hated his work heard ugliness, tunelessness, and chaos. Those who loved it heard intensity, complexity, and a refusal to comfort -- a profound beauty, rather than empty, superficial prettiness.

[Music: Electronic]

Part 3: Solar-Powered ATVs, Iceland Birds in NL

Residential School Survivor Chief

CH: Sixty years ago, Gordon Beardy ran away from a residential school in Ontario. Now, he's trying to find the woman who helped him. Mr. Beardy is now the chief of Muskrat Dam Lake First Nation in northwestern Ontario. In 1962, when he was 11, he ran away from the Cecilia Jeffrey Indian Residential School. That is the same institution Chanie Wenjack ran away from and died, four years later. Gordon Beardy says he was trying to return to his parents, who lived 500 kilometres away. But after two days on the run, with no food or sleep, he found himself at a train station. And it was there, when he had pretty much given up hope, that a woman offered him help. With nowhere else to go, he agreed to stay at her home. On the third day of his stay, he finally asked her why she hadn't turned him in. And a warning, he speaks about the physical abuse he experienced at the residential school.

[sc]

GORDON BEARDY: And what touched me most was when she said to me, I want to know why you ran away. She cared enough to know… to want to know what was going on. It's like your own parents saying to you what happened?

OZTEN SHEBAHKEGET: So, what did you tell her?

GB: I told her that… [long pause] I told her that I didn't understand their way of life, their language, my upbringing. And I got punished for turning on the water tap and looking at it, being curious. Or I got strapped for talking. If you say something about something in your language because I didn't understand what was said. If I'm caught, I would get strapped. And one time, I remember I got so angry. I was being strapped on my hand so hard, one of my friends behind me said to me, cry. Because I didn’t feel that pain. I was so mad; I didn't feel it. I just wanted them to keep doing that to me. And then he said to me, he's not going to stop till he breaks your hand. So I pretended to cry. There's horrible things that happen there. Sometimes I don't… I don't talk about it. But I trusted her enough to talk for her to understand. She said to me, you know, I have to take you back. She told me to stay outside in the car while he went in. She was gone for a quite a while. She came back, and she said to me, it's ok, you can go. And then, what she’d been knitting was a sweater for me. She put that sweater on me because I didn't have anything, a shirt. And I wasn't punished. I don't know what she said to the principal. She told me, go home. And I made up my mind to just bear it so that I can go home, and I went home. Probably, if I were to meet her, I would just hug her and have a good cry. And she would know why. She's my mother, my angel mother.

[/sc]

CH: That was Gordon Beardy, the chief of Muskrat Dam Lake First Nation, speaking with CBC Manitoba reporter Ozten Shebahkeget. A national Indian Residential School Crisis Line has been set up to provide support to residential school survivors and those affected. The number is 1-866-925-4419.

[music: Glassy guitar riff]

Solar-Powered ATVs

Guest: Jasmine McDermott

CH: All-terrain vehicles are a fact of life in Canada's North. And for the most part, so is their fuel source: gas. And lots of it. But a group of students at the University of Calgary wants to change that. They've come up with a way to retrofit a gas-powered ATV with an electric battery. And they're hoping the swap could take off in northern Indigenous communities. Jasmine McDermott is a fifth-year mechanical engineering student. We reached her in Calgary.

DS: So, Jasmine, how did this project come about?

JASMINE MCDERMOTT: So myself and my friend Austin, were both indigenous. I'm Cree, and he's Metis. And about a year-and-a-half ago, we were starting to think about our capstone project, which is a year-long final project that all of eng kids do.

DS: Um-hmm.

JM: And we wanted to do something that was relevant to us as Indigenous people that could have some sort of value add for Indigenous communities. And we came upon this project because fuel prices are very expensive in northern and remote communities.

DS: Um-hmmm.

JM: And wanted to have this form of economic empowerment, but also to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and kind of fill in that missing peace between government initiatives to convert to green energy and the technology needed to actually put it into use in day to day life.

DS: But why the ATV?

JM: So we met with Dr. Henry Penn from the Kluane Lake Research Station, and he had an ATV that was fairly new but was gas-powered. And he was interested in making it electric so that it could tie in to the existing solar grid that they have at the station. A lot of folks up north will have existing solar panels or other renewable infrastructure.

DS: Um-hmm.

JM: But as long as you have a gas engine, it's not going to do you any good. So these ATVs, these Kubotas, as they're commonly used up north. It's kind of like the workhorse of the station, of the property, used to make short trips and transport people and resources.

DS: So, Kubota is the brand name of an ATV. They were very supportive of this project. How did they help you?

JM: They shared the workshop manuals with us that just kind of give some information about how to take the Kubota apart. And throughout the conversion, we would call them any time something wasn't quite working as planned or parts were stuck. And often, [chuckles] the solution was: hit it harder.

DS: So, converting from gas to electric, clearly you need to store your… your power source in batteries. But if this is going to work up north, you've got the cold to deal with. How did you get around that?

JM: The reality is, nobody makes batteries, at least affordable ones or commonly available ones, that are designed for the Arctic temperatures up north. But the good news is, is people up north are already used to dealing with that. Just like here in Calgary, you might plug in your car when it's really cold. They have these things called Arctic pads, which are basically heating pads that they plug in and use to keep their vehicles and equipment warm on the colder days and months. So, we incorporated those into our design. Those are inexpensive and commonly available. Our batteries are within a case, which provides a bit of insulation. And we should be able to get hour-and-a-half, two hours worth of runtime from these batteries. Ror the purposes of the research station, just kind of operating short trips around the property and moving people and equipment, it should be more than sufficient.

DS: So what are the benefits of having an electric ATV in the North as opposed to, you know, conventional gasoline or fuel?

JM: So, what's cool about this design is it can plug into any power source. So at the university, we just kind of charged it in the machine shop. At the research station, it'll plug into the solar grid. Whatever you have, it's able to use the energy that you have. And it has technology in it to prevent overcharging and surging and all of that. So, whenever you're not using it, you can just leave it plugged in and it'll be safe and reliable for you. So, as we're moving towards this energy transition and reduce greenhouse gases, this gives you the option that you're not stuck burning fossil fuels because of your technology.

DS: So, what are some of the limitations of the ATV if it's electric?

JM: Well, with the gas engine you can pretty much flood the engine. They would run it through the lake, and it's fine because it's a combustion engine. With the electric system and the batteries, you can't fully flood it out like that. It's… it's water resistant. We drove it through some pretty hefty puddles with no problem. But you do just have to be cognizant of not fully drowning the engine.

DS: Mm-Hmm.

JM: It's a little bit heavier. But the electric motor and batteries are a little bit more powerful, so that balances out.

DS: Now, you've created a bit of a manual that would let other Kubota ATV owners convert theirs and do the same kind of retrofit you did. How hard would it be for someone to copy your work here?

JM: Well, [laughing] if you are a university student with limited hands-on experience, it is a bit of a learning curve. [DS chuckles] You are a person who lives in a remote community and is used to working on your own vehicles and equipment, I think it would probably be even easier. Throughout our project, we really focused on making this accessible for others to use. So, we used off-the-shelf parts that are easily either purchased in stores or shipped to Canada. We minimized the amount of custom machining required for these parts. And we made sure that it doesn't require advanced skills that someone, you know, who has access to a fairly basic machine shop couldn't access.

DS: So, you're trying to help communities in the North. ATV was a start. How about a snowmobile?

JM: Yeah, so this sort of technology, electric vehicles, we're seeing it implemented for all types of machines. So, our conversion manual is specifically for this machine. If you have some pretty cool scientific genius, [DS chuckles] you might be able to kind of work off what we did to convert a snowmobile or whatnot.

DS: What do you think? Can it be done?

JM: Oh, I think it definitely can be done. A future capstone problem, though. [chuckling]

DS: Yeah, you're not signing up for another term project for this one, right?

JM: I think so. But I think it definitely can be done. And that's the whole point of this project that it can inspire others to kind of be empowered to do stuff like this themselves.

DS: Have you been marked on it yet?

JM: Um, tentatively, yes. So far, we're doing pretty well. [chuckling]

DS: All right. Well, I won't go further on that. But congratulations.

JM: Yeah. Thank you so much! It was great talking to you.

DS: Yeah, and it's nice to meet you on the radio.

JM: Nice to meet you, too.

DS: Bye-bye.

JM: Bye-bye.

CH: Jasmine McDermott is a fifth-year engineering student at the University of Calgary. And she was in Calgary.

[Music: Poppy beat]

Salamander helpers

CH: You can see them walking around with flashlights on the sides of Nova Scotia highways late at night. The volunteers arrive not to help motorists but to give an assist to salamanders, which are trying to cross roads to lay their eggs. The crossing guards are much needed for the yellow-spotted salamanders, whose numbers are dropping in the province. The CBC spoke with an amphibian-assisting volunteer named Laura Eamon.

[sc]

LAURA EAMON: I've never seen a salamander until I started helping with the rescue. Last year, I took my partner and my stepdaughters out, and we rescued salamanders and frogs and worms. It's fun, and you can see the positive impact that you're having.

NICOLA SEGUIN: It must be really rewarding, too?

LE: Yes. Oh my God! I remember last year, I did a night of active rescue with the kids, and then the next morning, Clarence emailed and said, hey, we found some eggs on a trail. Do you want to come out, you know, dig ditches? And I was like, oh my God! Like, we just went out last night, [chuckling] but I went and spent a couple of hours during the daytime digging some ditches and moving some eggs to a more safe location. And then, Clarence went back maybe a week later and took pictures. I remember crying. The ditch that we dug had hundreds and hundreds of eggs.

NS: What are you trying to protect them from on the trails?

LE: The habitat improvement is really important because that's the biggest negative impact on our amphibian population is habitat loss. So on the trail, ATVs are… you know, the most fun part of being on an ATV is going through puddles. But those puddles are perfect pools for amphibians to lay their eggs. So we go out throughout the day, and we are walking along the trails looking for eggs. Then we try to move them over to the side of the trails, like under low-lying branches or stuff, to keep them more safe. Because when the ATVs run through the puddles and stuff, they can destroy or displace the eggs.

NS: And how does it benefit the ecosystem to… to have a thriving salamander populations?

LE: Well, salamanders eat insects. So, to help keep the insect population in control. Some frogs eat salamanders, so we're helping keep the frogs fed. So, a healthy amphibian population, a healthy wetland, a healthy community.

[/sc]

CH: Laura Eamon is a volunteer salamander crossing guard in Nova Scotia. She was talking to the CBC's Nicola Seguin.

[Music: Jazz]

Iceland Birds In NL

Guest: Shawn Fitzpatrick

CH: Their flights were all diverted by strong winds. And when they came in for a landing, somewhat disoriented, a gang of locals was there, swooning over their surprise arrival. Barnacle geese, black-tailed godwits, and golden plovers -- all Icelandic birds blown off-course this past weekend and spotted in eastern Newfoundland. Local birders quickly flocked together to get a look at the rare birds, some of which have never been seen in Newfoundland before now. Shawn Fitzpatrick is one of those birders and a local wildlife photographer. We reached him in St. John's.

DS: Shawn, you were back in the field today to photograph more of these rare birds. Do you have any luck?

SHAWN FITZPATRICK: Yeah. I did, actually. There's a… the latest bird in town is a brambling. That's a Eurasian species from out in Russia, that way.

DS: A brambling?

SF: Brambling.

DS: And what does that look like?

SF: It's… it's a member of the finch family, and it's… it's about the size of a purple finch. That wouldn't be bringing up anything for most people, probably. So, a little smaller than a robin. I'd say that would give you a better idea?

DS: So, what's been happening in the weather and the wind patterns that… that have brought this, you know, new crop of birds? Has it been a particularly windy season?

SF: Well, I live in a place in Canada where we're an island in the North Atlantic. And being there, we get a lot of the high winds. Sometimes, prevailing towards Newfoundland. And they carry here to our shores instead of Greenland, where they want to go.

DS: Describe some of the unique birds that you've been finding and what makes them so special?

SF: So we get… we get really good species here. There are European golden plovers and godwits in several varieties, Hudsonian, black-tailed, and there's still quite a few actually that reach our shores from Europe. But others sometimes come from the other end of the country. Like I said, the brambling is a Eurasian species. So, it's not really anywhere here except for along the coastline up to Alaska that way.

DS: So, what did it feel like when you first spotted one of these rare birds out in the field?

SF: Oh, it's… it's exciting. The… the moment is exciting for individuals. And… and as a collective, I would liken it to, like, winning a Stanley Cup or something, winning a hockey game, getting the gold, you know? You get that elated feeling from within you. It comes from within the spirit in you, you know?

DS: So, tell me about the barnacle geese. What are they, and how many are we seeing this year?

SF: Okay, so… [chuckle] it doesn't rain, but it pours sometimes, as they say. And in the case of the barnacle geese, in this case, we got a windfall of a dozen of them. We have 12 landed in Bonavista. So we got eight down in Bonavista, and we have four down in Portugal Cove South. They may have started out as a flock of a dozen wherever they left and got separated somewhere in the high winds. They're about a little smaller than a Canada goose would be the best way to describe it for most people that would try to get a visual on that. To the untrained eye, it would probably just be written off by somebody as, oh look, there's some Canada geese there. But to birders, they would see right away that that is not a Canada goose.

DS: Given what you're seeing this year, and even these numbers, is there any concern in your mind that… that these migration patterns are being disrupted by climate change?

SF: I don't think that climate change is really disrupting at least the main flow of birds getting to their destinations yet. But it is obviously throwing some of them off-track. With the… as… as meteorologists have suggested, the wind patterns have changed globally. And I guess that'll have to be something that birds will adapt to, which, you know, brings to mind that this big number of barnacle geese, for example, that landed in Newfoundland. If they were to stay here, they might… they might possibly breed here. And if they did, then I guess the new… the new geese would call this the migratory home or something. I'm sure that's what happened somewhere along the line in history.

DS: But for the most part, what's your suspicion? That… that after they graze, they might… they might make it back home or to Greenland, where they usually go?

SF: I think that they'll get back on track, and they'll find a way to Greenland. I don't… I don't understand exactly all that happens within… within their… their own expertise of getting getting on that track in the first place. But I understand that there may be some factor of the magnetic field that they pick up on. They may be guided by starlight. Many birds migrate during the night, in fact. So, I'd say once they pick up the right wind, which would feel right to them, I think that they'll get right back on track and head back on to… toward Greenland.

DS: Well, Shawn, thanks for telling us about these new finds of yours, and happy birding.

SF: Yeah, thank you.

DS: All right. Nice to meet you on the radio.

SF: You too, Dave. Have a good one.

DS: Bye-now.

CH: Shawn Fitzpatrick is a birder and local wildlife photographer in Newfoundland and Labrador. We reached him in St. John's.

[Music: Indie rock]

London Pinball Wizard

CH: Corey Cooke's working life has taken a sudden left turn. Or maybe it's more of a noisy series of ricochets off a series of flashing bumpers before heading down a tiny light-up ramp for thousands of bonus points. After years of repairing pinball machines in his garage workshop as a hobby and side-hustle, the London, Ontario man has decided to turn pro. He's preparing to leave his multi-decade career as an audio-visual technician to fix the machines full-time. Corey Cooke told our colleagues at CBC London about the first broken pinball machine that started him on his journey.

[sc]

COREY COOKE: And I distinctly remember standing in front of this machine, this broken machine, that had all kinds of issues and, you know, rubbing my chin and thinking to myself, how am I going to make this work? I'm either going to figure it out, or I'm going to get rid of it. And so I, with the help of the internet, I sat down, and I read every single possible thing I could find on how to fix pinball machines. And so, I fixed that machine up and I sold it, and I bought a couple of more broken machines, and then I fixed those up and sold them and bought a few more. And over time, my experience allowed me to start bringing in machines that belonged to other people. And then the phone started ringing, and people wanted me to go and do house calls throughout London, and I had no idea that there was such demand. You'd be amazed at how many there are around. I mean, when you consider that pinball has been around since the 30s, and you know, those machines they never really got… I mean, they often got thrown out. But often, the operators that purchased them to put in the arcades, they would sell them to the public. And so, you've literally got hundreds of thousands of pinball machines that were made all the way from like 1937 on up to the present day that have been sold to the public. And so, around London, for example, I have a couple of hundred customers that I see somewhat regularly, and there's new ones calling me and trying to get in touch with me all the time. And, of course, having a family and a full-time job, I could never meet the demand. I could never keep up. Which leads to where we are today. I'm leaving my… my full-time job of 20 years to… to pursue my dream. You know, the pandemic made me very self-reflective and conscious of the passage of time, and I thought perhaps it was time to change it up, do something different and follow my passion. A lot of people get into pinball for various reasons. I mean, there's the artwork, there's the gameplay, there's the competitiveness, there's… you know, people kind of congregate around the machine while you're playing. But I always found it was most fun to fix them. You know, in the solitude of my workshop with… when it's quiet late at night, I can open up a machine and dig in to, you know, its issues, figure out how it works and make it work better than ever. And it's fun.

[/sc]

CH: That was Corey Cooke of London, Ontario, speaking to our colleague, Angela McInnes.

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April 19, 2022 Episode Transcript

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