Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2022

The AIH Transcript For April 8, 2022

Hosts: Dave Seglins and Talia Schlanger

DAVE SEGLINS: Hello, I'm Dave Seglins.

TALIA SCHLANGER: Good evening, I'm Talia Schlanger, this is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

TS: Tonight:

DS: Murderous intent. We'll hear from an aid worker in Kramatorsk about the attack on a train station in the Ukrainian city.

TS: Care tactics. A doctor in Oklahoma says she's struggling to care for her patients thanks to new legislation that almost completely bans abortion in the state -- and it's not even the most restrictive bill she's seen.

DS: Judgement day. Authorities in Turkey have abandoned their prosecution of Saudi officials in the murder of Jamal Khashoggi. And one of the slain journalist's friends tells us he's no longer expecting justice.

TS: Worlds apart. A new study of the first recordings from Mars finds that sound travels much slower over there than it does here on Earth. And one of our former guests helped design the microphone on-board the rover.

DS: Change of pace. A Texas runner becomes the first American woman to complete 1,000 marathons -- and tells us what it took to reach such a breathtaking milestone.

TS: And… Grate lengths. After organized criminals make off with close to $30,000 worth of her gouda, a Dutch dairy farmer says her family will do whatever it takes to keep making excellent cheese.

TS: As It Happens, the Friday edition. Radio that wishes them wheels of fortune.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Kramatorsk Train Station Attack, Khashoggi Case Moved, Gouda Theft

Kramatorsk Train Station Attack

Guest: Nate Mook

TS: They were trying to flee to safety. Instead, they lost their lives. Ukrainian authorities say at least 50 people are dead and dozens more have been injured after a missile strike on a train station in Kramatorsk today. Thousands of people were at the station at the time. The local governor had pleaded with civilians to evacuate from the area, among rising fears of a Russian assault. Nate Mook is the CEO of World Central Kitchen - a non-profit organization that provides meals to people in crisis. He was near the station when the attack happened. We reached Mr. Mook in Kramatorsk. And a warning, this conversation includes descriptions of death.

DS: Nate, can you describe for me the moment this attack took place?

NATE MOOK: We were headed to our warehouse. We drove past the railway station on an overpass, and on the platform, I saw thousands of people as it had been there previous days. And probably not less than two minutes later, we heard the booms. We heard the explosions. There were probably five to 10 of them in quick succession. You know, when the explosions happened, it hits you, it's less the sound that hits you, and it's the vibration of them that you feel. And we didn't know what was going on, of course, but we headed inside, ready to go down to our underground shelter. One of the warehouse workers told us that he had actually seen one of the missiles as it was flying by. One of them, at least, that he saw was intercepted by Ukrainian air defence. We were then notified that two of the missiles had struck the railway station, so we headed over there to see what the scene was, and it was catastrophic.

DS: And what did you see?

NM: So the… the extent of the damage was very spread out. There was broken glass and debris everywhere. There was actually a missile, whether it was the remnants of one or an unexploded missile or one that had been shot down, that was sitting in grass in the parking lot. On this missile, written in paint, were the words for the children in Russian. And there were cars that had just been put out. They had been on fire. There were people that were still in those cars as they burned. There were many bodies that had been collected. And the evacuation trains are prioritized for women and children, mothers and their kids and also seniors and those with disabilities. And so, the last couple of days, we've seen many people in wheelchairs. And there's a seating area on the platform where seniors could sit as they were leaving. And this is the area that was hit. And we saw dozens of casualties ourselves, and many people were being taken away in ambulances and on stretchers to the local hospitals.

DS: The numbers continue to change. We know that there are dozens confirmed dead. Scores who have been injured in this. You've been on the ground in Ukraine for some time. What was it like to be in the midst of an attack like this one?

NM: You know, I've got to admit, it was... it was shocking because these railway stations have been a lifeline for innocent civilians to be getting out of the cities as they are potentially or coming under attack. It is generally known that these stations are filled with innocent people, with women, children, grandparents that are trying to leave. And so, you know, I think while there was certainly a sense that an attack was looming in Kramatorsk overall because it has been said that this is going to be an area of focus now that… that Russian troops are regrouping and moving out of the north around Kyiv. I think there was sort of this idea that the train station in this area would not be a direct target. Now, of course, we're starting to see the brutality of these attacks. And so, I suppose we really shouldn't be shocked, but to experience, to see it, to realize there is no strategic value in striking a train station like this with thousands of people evacuating, 4000 people were there today. It is just murder straight out. So, you know, I think there's… there's a sense of, you know, of shock and just... just complete speechlessness of… off what happened today. Of the brutality and the inhumanity of it all. And yet, there is this determination by the Ukrainian people to fight and to do what they can to make sure that their people stay safe.

DS: How do you make sense of the fact that these innocent civilians are being targeted?

NM: [deep breath] You know, I've been thinking about this a lot since I… since I first got to Ukraine. I arrived here just a few days after the war started. And you sort of think at some point you must be able to kind of reconcile what's going on, and you really can't because you see firsthand what's happening. We were in a residential community in Kharkiv just a few days ago, delivering meals when a shell hit not too far from us. And this is purely residential. There is nothing else there but apartment buildings were innocent people were living. And so, there's no way to... to describe it other than it is intentional murder of civilians to traumatize, to terrorize and, you know, to… to really just create havoc and carnage. And that's really all there is to it.

DS: Now the Russians say that there is no way that they would have targeted a train station. What do you make of that claim?

NM: You know, I'm not a military expert. I don't know all of the details of it. But I will tell you that this station has been for many days, very publicly serving as an evacuation point for innocent civilians. And that's all that was there. And, you know, for an attack like this to happen, you know, it boggles the mind that… that it could be accidental or, you know, that they were targeting something else because that is the only thing that is there.

DS: The Russians have accused Ukraine of a provocation here.

NM: [deep breath] You know, I… you know, I think it's going to be very interesting to see, you know, how these types of claims keep happening, and they say, no, it wasn't us, it wasn't us. You know, at a certain point, you know, I think it is… it is extraordinarily clear what is happening. And perhaps in this case, even more so because one of the rockets was still intact, at least partially. So I imagine there's going to be quite a bit of investigation done. I know the mayor here has said they are figuring out exactly where the missiles came from. And so, you know, I imagine we'll hear more of that in the days ahead. But again, I mean, there are so many civilians being targeted, not just here in Kramatorsk, but really all across the country. And so, I think we are well beyond the time of believing any claims that these atrocities are some sort of accident or some sort of fake thing. I mean, I can tell you today what I saw was nothing but the murder of innocent people.

DS: Nate, please be careful.

NM: I will. Absolutely. That is priority number one.

DS: Thank you.

NM: Thank you so much.

TS: Nate Mook is the CEO of World Central Kitchen - a non-profit organization. We reached him in Kramatorsk, Ukraine. You can find more on this story on our webpage at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Fuzzy guitar riff]

Khashoggi Case Moved

Guest: Lawerence Wright

TS: For the family and friends of Jamal Khashoggi, the prospect of justice now seems much further away. The Washington Post columnist was brutally murdered, then dismembered inside the Saudi consulate in Istanbul in 2018. Twenty-six Saudi officials were put on trial in absentia in Turkey for the killing -- which is widely believed to have been ordered by the country's crown prince Mohammed Bin Salman. But yesterday, Turkey suspended the trial and transferred the prosecution to Saudi Arabia. Lawerence Wright is an author and journalist who was friends with Jamal Khashoggi. We reached him in Austin, Texas.

DS: Lawrence, how did you react when you heard this news from Turkish prosecutors?

LAWRENCE WRIGHT: Well, it wasn't surprising. The Turkish economy's been tanking. They've been trying to figure out a way to re-establish relations with Saudi Arabia. And you know, the price for admission is to give up any pursuit of justice in the murder of Jamal Khashoggi.

DS: But until now, there was a trial. Turkey seemed like it was pursuing the truth in this case. What changed?

LW: As far as I know, the only thing that changed is the desperation over fixing their own economy and perhaps the fruitlessness of their pursuit?

DS: How do you mean?

LW: I think that there was a fundamental pointlessness in the trial in the first place. It was a political trial meant to try to influence Saudi Arabia to bring justice in Jamal's murder. But that's not going to happen. And so, faced with their own economic quarrels and problems, they decided to jettison the trial and hope that they can re-establish some kind of economic ties to Saudi Arabia and solve their energy problems.

DS: So, by shifting this prosecution to Saudi, one of the lawyers for Mr. Khashoggi's fiancee compared this decision to entrusting the lamb to the wolf. Do you see it that way?

LW: Yeah. I mean, that's a famous Turkish phrase. And essentially, they're saying we can't bring justice in Turkey. You know, suspects aren't even here. We haven't even announced their names. But we'll give it to Saudi Arabia, which is going to do nothing with it. The truth is, you know, the only way to really bring justice in this case is to have Mohammed bin Salman brought to trial. And there's no conceivable way in which that might happen.

DS: The crown prince?

LW: That's correct.

DS: But if this had no hope of success even in Turkey. If the accused weren't there, and it seemed so far from, you know, having any individual being held to account, what is lost by it no longer taking place in Turkey?

LW: Well, probably not a lot. But, you know, Turkey took on the responsibility that really the world has to try to enforce some kind of justice on this case. And I admire the way the Turks handled the case from the beginning. You know, the… the extraordinary amount of intelligence they had. The way that they leaked out, you know, drip by drip, you know, information about how the Saudis were behind it, apparently hoping that, you know, they would produce some kind of confession or some kind of action on the part of Saudi Arabia that would demonstrate their commitment to trying to bring to justice the people who had actually killed Jamal and the people who had ordered it. You know, it was never going to go all the way up. The world has learned through, for instance, the actions of Vladimir Putin, that tyrants can kill with impunity. And when that is allowed to happen without any kind of retribution or pushback, then those actions become even more dangerous to the rest of the world. And I fear that's what we'll see with Mohammed bin Salman in power in Saudi Arabia. Getting away with murder is just the first step. You know, we don't know what the next step might be, but we can look at the footsteps of Putin and imagine where it's going.

DS: Fair enough. The trial may have been doomed to not uncover or conclude a ton. But to Turkey's credit, as you say, they did the investigation.

LW: Yeah.

DS: Can you briefly remind us what was uncovered there?

LW: Well, apparently, they had the Saudi consulate very well wired with not only audio, but even conceivably video information. And so, the actions of the killers were tracked. Every word spoken. The sound of the murder itself was all recorded. I don't think the Saudis at the beginning realized the depth of the knowledge that the Turkish intelligence had. You know, initially denying anything had happened, claiming that Jamal had entered the consulate and then left fine. You know, we have pictures, as a matter of fact, of him leaving the consulate. [chuckling] And what they had were pictures of another man wearing Jamal's clothes. It's ghoulish. But this was… the Saudis, I think, were so pleased with their plan. They thought they were going to get away with it. There was… there was a kind of astonishment to have the Turkish authorities so thoroughly rip away any disguise.

DS: So Turkey, for whatever reasons, have now handed to Saudi. Saudi has already claimed to have held its own trials. If there can't be justice in Saudi, how can there be justice in this case?

LW: Well, there's not going to be justice in this case. You know, it's pretty clear that, you know, the world has decided that there's no… there's no possibility of bringing to account the Saudi government itself as it is headed by Mohammed bin Salman. And, you know, even our own country and European countries have resolved to, you know, go back to business as usual. And I think in the face of that, Turkey thought, Well, why should we be any different? Other nations are buying Saudi oil and gas. And we need it as well. So, you know, they've struck their own bargain. Had the world been more united in trying to bring to justice the people who were ordered and organized and executed the plan that was conceived at the highest levels of Saudi government, then we might have had a different outcome. But that's not going to happen now.

DS: That's a bleak conclusion. How do you square that with your desire to have justice for the murder of your friend?

LW: I desire it. I… you know, I think every… every individual should be protected by the rule of law, but that's not the case in Saudi Arabia. And you know, I despair of the fact that justice will never be done in this case. But I can't see how it will ever be affected.

DS: Lawrence, I'm sorry for your loss and sorry for the sense of injustice. And I thank you for speaking with us today.

LW: Thank you, Dave. I appreciate the opportunity.

TS: Lawerence Wright is an author and journalist who was friends with Jamal Khashoggi. He was in Austin, Texas.

[Music: Ambient]

Gouda Theft

Guest: Gerda van Dorp

TS: Gerda van Dorp has been the victim of a theft -- a devastating theft of cheese. Ms. van Dorp and her husband operate Torenpolderkaas, a small cheese and dairy farm in the southern part of the Netherlands. It's been a week since they discovered their loss of giant wheels of cheese. Police who are investigating believe the cheese heist looks like the work of organized criminals. We reached Gerda van Dorp on her farm outside of Fijnaart in the south of the Netherlands.

DS: Ms. van Dorp, can you describe the moment when you realized that you'd been robbed?

GERDA VAN DORP: Well, it was my husband who made the discovery. He was going outside to milk the cows, and then he saw that the door was open. So he thought to himself, well, that's strange. So he went inside and then he saw the door to our shop was also open.

DS: Um-hmm.

GVD: So he went inside, and on the counter, he saw all the cheeses from the fridge on the counter. And that's the moment when he realized something's wrong. So he went to our storage, and the door was also open. And then he put on the light, and he saw that almost all the shelves were empty.

DS: And how much cheese are we talking about here?

GVD: Sixteen hundred kilos. There are 161 cheeses missing.

DS: Like full wheels of cheese?

GVD: Yeah, full wheels.

DS: How were thieves able to get away with 161 wheels of cheese?

GVD: That's a really good question. Every three days, the truck comes to get the milk from our farm.

DS: Mm-Hmm.

GVD: So on that day, our gate was open. So they knew that. The police also think that they were watching us for quite some time. And that they exactly knew how everything works on our farm.

DS: Now, when you figured out that you had lost this much product, this much cheese.

GVD: Yeah.

DS: What went through your mind?

GVD: Well, we were really angry and upset and scared also. When you realize people have been watching you and knew exactly what you were doing and how everything works on our farm. It scared us, but we were also so angry because we put a lot of time and passion into making the cheese. And someone just took them all away.

DS: What kind of cheese is it?

GVD: It's Goudse Kaas. Canadians would call it Gouda.

DS: Yeah, we call it Gouda.

GVD: Yeah. And, well, we make them natural, but also with a lot of herbs in them. It's really great.

DS: Did you ever think you'd be targeted for a big theft like this?

GVD: No. We did hear about it a few years ago, but we are not that big of a cheese makary. And we live in a little town, so we never expected this, no.

DS: Who would want it?

GVD: Never… the organization who looks out for all the dairy makers, they experienced a few years ago that a lot of the cheese thefts went to Eastern Europe.

DS: So they're being --

GVD: To be sold.

DS: Resold?

GVD: Yeah. We all have a little mark on the cheese. So they are traceable in the Netherlands. So they can't sell our cheeses here in the Netherlands.

DS: So, where do you think your cheese is at the moment?

GVD: I really don't know. I hope a couple of them are still in the Netherlands so we can track them. But we are afraid that it's in Eastern Europe.

DS: How much was this all worth again?

GVD: Twenty-one thousand euros.

DS: That's close to $30,000 Canadian. Are you insured for this loss?

GVD: We don't know yet. The insurance company is coming this week, later this week, to discuss this.

DS: So, we're calling you from Canada because it's a little bit strange and funny that the cheese has gone missing, but this… this is affecting your business and your home. How scary is it to know that this was done by organized criminals?

GVD: It's really scary also for our children, who are age five and 10. They had a little bit of trouble sleeping at night. And… but we discussed it with them, and we said, well, we are taking all the measurements we can so that they can't come back. But yeah, as an adult, you're trying to assure your child, it's okay, everything is going to be okay. But, of course, you're scared. And last Monday, I didn't sleep, and I was all the time looking outside, seeing if I could see anybody because I was afraid that they would come back.

DS: Does this make you want to get out of the cheese business?

GVD: No, not at all. No, it's our passion. We love the whole process. We love how people react to our cheeses. And it's just a wonderful business to be in. So, no, we won't stop.

DS: Well, it's… it's an unfortunate story, but it is nice to meet you on the radio and good luck with the next batch of fresh cheese.

GVD: Thank you. Thank you very much.

TS: Gerda van Dorp and her husband are dairy farmers. They run a small cheese farm called Torenpolderkaas. We reached her near Fijnaart in the Netherlands.

[Music: Vocalization]

Yorkshire Rave

TS: It had been a great day of solitude for Oliver Broome. He'd gone hiking in a remote part of Yorkshire, England. Fired up his camping stove and made dinner. Drank a couple of beers as darkness fell. And then snuggled into his sleeping bag, and listened to the near-silence.

[Sound: A light breeze, birds calling]

TS: [relaxing sigh] Ah, just a light breeze, a few birds calling. [a barn owl screech] Oh, there's the distant screech of a barn owl. Just the kind of soothing natural sounds Mr. Broome expected to hear when alone, just him and the stars and… [people shifting and talking] wait, do you hear that? People? A gang! Approaching in the middle of the night, in the middle of nowhere! Oliver Broome jumped to the most obvious conclusion. As he wrote on Instagram, "I thought I was getting murdered for sure." And then, after a lot more rustling, and a lot more people, a new sound emerged.

[Music: Techno]

TS: Mr. Broome had stumbled into a rave. Or rather, a rave had stumbled into Mr. Broome. So he decided to join the strangers. Not that it was much of a decision: as he told Yorkshire Live, "I had no choice really, as my tent was right near the speakers, so I got stuck in.” In all, about 50 people partied until about 7:30 a.m. So Oliver Broome didn't get to commune with nature overnight. He also didn't get to sleep. But even if his camping weekend wasn't what he'd planned, he'd still give it a rave review.

[Music: Ambient]

Part 2: Oklahoma Abortion Law, Texas Marathoner

Oklahoma Abortion Law

Guest: Dr. Christine Bourne

TS: It could soon be nearly impossible to get an abortion in Oklahoma. On Tuesday, lawmakers in the state passed a bill that would make it a felony to provide almost any abortion -- except where a women's life is at risk. It means doctors could end up in prison. And it's not just people in Oklahoma who will be affected if the governor signs the bill into law, which he is widely expected to do. On top of that, Dr. Christine Bourne says there's another bill coming that is worrying abortion providers even more. Dr. Bourne is the medical director at Trust Women, which has abortion clinics in Oklahoma City and Wichita, Kansas. Today we reached her in Wichita.

DS: Dr. Bourne, if you could describe Senate Bill 612 in a few words, what would you say?

DR. CHRISTINE BOURNE: Oh gosh, it's hard for me to describe it in a few words. But essentially, it's a radical anti-abortion bill, which would essentially completely ban abortions in Oklahoma City and actually charge any abortion providers with a felony and up to 10 years in prison.

DS: Why do you think Oklahoma is looking to pass these more restrictive measures?

DCB: I mean, I really do think it is just to frighten people that these laws are… they… they are not legally sound. It is… it is just to terrify people from seeking abortions and from further moving the dialogue away from that abortion is health-care, abortion is routine, abortion is normal and having abortions safe and accessible and close to you is proven to be an excellent public health measure.

DS: Now there's another bill. This is the Oklahoma Heartbeat Act. It was just advanced through committee in the House moving forward.

DCB: Yes.

DS: What is that bill, and how worried are you about it?

DCB: Yeah. So this is Senate Bill 1503, and this is essentially a bill that is what's called a copycat bill of SB 8, which is the heartbeat ban that… that took place in Texas in September last year. There… this… this particular bill has more legal precedence and legal standing as opposed to Senate Bill 612, which is really just to… to terrify folks. So, Senate Bill 1503 would restrict abortion access beyond where cardiac activity can be detected in the pregnancy, which is generally around six weeks. It also has the aiding and abetting clause, which kind of allows citizens to report people that they believe are aiding and abetting an abortion provision.

DS: So, how would that work?

DCB: It would allow private citizens to sue anybody that they believe is aiding and abetting abortion. So it's even been like, you know, could… could the Lyft or Uber driver be sued for taking somebody to their abortion appointment? Could the abortion administration and, like, front desk folks be sued for scheduling an appointment? We really don't know what this law means and how it can be carried out. There is no other law like this on the books, I think, within our United States history or at least contemporary history.

DS: Well, we understand, and you called it a copycat from what's going on in Texas.

DCB: Yes, sir.

DS: What impact has the passage of this kind of legislation in Texas had on women coming to Oklahoma to seek abortion?

DCB: What we're seeing specifically is that people are coming to our clinic at much higher gestational ages. That, you know, they find out they're pregnant, let's say, six, seven, eight weeks pregnant. And it does take time and resources to mobilize a trans-state drive, travelling, arranging child-care, arranging health-care. What we're seeing in our clinic as we get over 100 calls an hour, over 500 calls a day, to schedule people for abortions. We've had to implement new phone systems, new phone triage things and phone… you know, ways of operating our clinic that we've never seen or experienced before.

DS: Those numbers are remarkable. What has this meant to the people in Oklahoma with all of this added demand from Texas?

DCB: This has already deeply impacted Oklahomans. The vast majority of people that we see in our clinic in Oklahoma City are actually from Texas, and then displacing people who are seeking out abortion services in Oklahoma elsewhere.

DS: So what will this do if Oklahoma joins Texas?

DCB: Oklahoma and previously Texas, we were… we were… we are and were some of the most accessible states in the Midwest and the South for people to seek out abortion care. There are very few abortion clinics in Middle America, in the Midwest and the South. And that would take away essentially abortion access for swaths of the country.

DS: So, if this gets signed by the governor that it makes it a felony to perform abortions in Oklahoma with penalty of up to 10 years in prison, how much longer will you and other doctors at your clinic, Trust Women, be providing abortions?

DCB: Yeah. I mean, I… I… I feel confident that this law has no legal footing or an ability to even stand… stand as it is. I think that, you know, a variety of legal organizations are already ready to push back on this bill and make sure that it cannot be upheld or signed. You know, upheld in Oklahoma.

DS: What's it like for you as a doctor to be constantly fighting legal battles, fighting your state government like this?

DCB: Yeah, I mean, it's… it's… it's pretty exhausting. I trained to be a medical professional. I trained to be a physician. I think part of being a physician is being an advocate, but I do find that my… my role is… is almost flipping. That I am having to be an advocate more rather than providing direct patient care.

DS: Dr. Bourne, thanks for joining us today.

DCB: Yeah, no. Happy… happy to join you all, and thank you so much for having me on your show.

DS: Well, thank you. Bye for now.

DCD: Bye, sir.

TS: Dr. Christina Bourne is the medical director at Trust Women. She was in Wichita, Kansas.

[Music: Acoustic guitar]

First Indigenous Law Program

TS: The world's first Indigenous law program will soon celebrate its first class of graduates. The University of Victoria launched the degree --- spanning Indigenous and non-Indigenous legal traditions --- four years ago, in part as a response to Canada's Truth and Reconciliation Commission. Twenty-three people have now completed the program. Soon-to-be graduate Kaitlyn Lafontaine-Hait, who is Metis, spoke with our colleagues at CBC British Columbia.

[sc]

KAITLYN LAFONTAINE-HAIT: Every course we took, we learned from two different perspectives. So, for example, like we learned constitutional law alongside Anishinaabe law. And we learned property law along Gwichʼin law. So when we think about how every legal problem has several sides to it, like, there is not just one legal order out there. So I think incorporating Indigenous law really has to do with just thinking about other perspectives and other worldviews and how disputes can be dealt with in different ways. Indigenous law is going to be, and is, a system that lives alongside the Canadian law system. So a lot of what we've been trained to understand and learn is that Indigenous law is not going to fit within Canadian law. I think, like, the biggest goal coming out of our program is to have trained lawyers in Indigenous law and have more advocates for Indigenous peoples. So, when we think about how we approach cases, like, if we can approach cases using Indigenous law or different perspectives and different worldviews, and the Canadian law or Canadian system is open to incorporating these different perspectives, then that will make meaningful change.

[/sc]

TS: That was Kaitlyn Lafontaine-Hait, one of the first graduates from the University of Victoria's Indigenous law program. She spoke with our colleague Chris Walker in Victoria, B.C.

[Music: Folk]

Texas Marathoner

Guest: Angela Tortorice

TS: For decades, she's been running. And competing. Angela Tortorice had made it her mission to run marathons and to set world records. And now, recently, at age 54, she's reached a coveted milestone for runners. She has run a total of 1,000 marathons. And according to the Mega Marathon list, that makes her the first woman in the U.S. to cross that particular finish line. We reached Angela Tortorice in Dallas, Texas, where she is preparing to head out for another race this weekend.

DS: Angela, congratulations.

ANGELA TORTORICE: Thank you so much! [chuckle]

DS: What was it like to cross the finish line of your 1,000 marathon?

AT: One of the most amazing days of my life. I had a lot of friends and family there supporting me and just didn't know that it was going to be as great as it actually was.

DS: Describe it for us.

AT: Well, I had a lot of my personal friends running me in and a police escort bringing us in to the finish line. And this was two miles basically from my company headquarters and less than 50 miles from my home. I grew up in Dallas, and I was able to have friends and family there, and it was just so amazing. And the race directors and everyone, they were so supportive.

DS: Well, it is an amazing feat. Did you ever think you would achieve 1,000?

AT: Absolutely not. [brightly laughing] I didn't even think I would run more than 20 after the first one.

DS: Well, do you remember that first one?

AT: Definitely, yes. The first one was, you know, very emotional, physically-challenging. You know, this one was the same emotionally, a little less physically-challenging just because, you know, I've done a few of them, but -- [both laughing]

DS: You're very modest!

AT: Well… well, and also, I kind of knew what I was up against, right? And just a little bit slower than those days. You know, four-hour marathons are definitely in the rear-view mirror.

DS: Why did you get into this originally?

AT: Um, my former husband was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis, and it was just a way for me to try to work on my health and kind of deal with what was going on in our lives and the challenges that we faced. And running, it just kind of takes you away from all of that.

DS: What do you mean takes you away?

AT: Well, you get these endorphins, and it just helps you cope with things that are going on or cope with problems, whether they're work issues you're trying to work through. You can solve so much because you just become a lot more clear-headed.

DS: So, I'm in awe of anybody who's completed one marathon, let alone a thousand. [AT chuckles] Does it get easier along the way? Like, what do you learn having done so many?

AT: I don't necessarily think that the miles get easier. It really isn't one of those things where, you know, you work out more, and it gets easier. But the things I've learned is, it does get easier in the time passes more quickly with just having friends by your side telling jokes all day, telling stories, you know, making up stories. [chuckle] I mean, that's the best part about this is the camaraderie.

DS: So help me understand this has to be pretty hard on your body as well, is it not?

AT: I would say so. But we're also not pushing upper limits. We're taking it easy. We're back of the packers these days. You know, when you're pushing to be a three-hour marathon or a four-hour marathon or trying to run Boston, it definitely takes a toll. We're just at the back of the pack having a good time.

DS: All right, fair enough. But you've still accomplished some amazing records. Can you tell me which one you're most proud of?

AT: Um, I'm most proud of running the most marathons, calendar-year female while working full-time, and just losing that record then gaining it back. And I guess, yeah, that's probably the record on this.

DS: So, I've been doing some of the math on this. For you to have done 1,000, I understand you've been doing about 40 a year. How do you balance 40 marathons a year with having, I understand, you're a full-time accountant?

AT: [chuckling] That's true. And I wouldn't say it started out with 40 a year. It kind of ramped up. And during part of this journey, I was working in our I.T. department, which allowed a little bit more remote working, which I think we've all learned about now during COVID. But I'm fortunate to work for a really great company, TXU Energy Vistra Corp, who just supports work-life balance. We're able to… you know, we may be working a lot of overtime in accounting, but they're also very flexible with meeting those deadlines.

DS: You mentioned COVID. Lots of people sought exercise and new ways of doing things over the… over the last two years, and many have taken up running. What's your advice for a beginner?

AT: I would say just start out slowly. Don't set some huge goal. Just set something that's attainable. Make it a habit. Try to do it every day, say five days a week at the same time, and you can easily get into the sport.

DS: You know, the amount that you run, do you think of it as an obsession?

AT: [chuckle] At times. But, you know, accountants are Type A, and we do become obsessed over numbers. And maybe this was part of, you know, that obsession.

DS: And what has it taught you about yourself?

AT: Oh gosh, I don't know. That's a… that's a difficult question. I think, if anything, running just gives you self-confidence. It gives you so many friendships. It's really indescribable?

DS: Any plans to one day call it quits?

AT: Um, not currently. You know, I'm only 54. So, [laughing] I'm hoping there's a lot of years ahead of me. One never knows about health and, you know, personal issues in their lives. But let's hope that I can continue this wonderful journey.

DS: Well, I understand you're… you're on your way… this weekend, you're running another marathon. You're 1,001?

AT: Let's hope so! I'm planning on running another marathon tomorrow in Arkansas.

DS: Oh, my goodness! What's your next goal?

AT: You know, last weekend I said to sleep. So [chuckling], right now, I mean, I'll be working on my schedule for the months that I'm, you know, not working a lot of hours and just kind of laying out the schedule and looking at some additional states to achieve. And heck, maybe I'll come to Canada and run. I have friends that have done a lot of races up in that area. And I know it's absolutely beautiful.

DS: Well, let us know if you come. It's wonderful to meet you on the radio. Congratulations and good luck tomorrow.

AT: Thanks so much. You take care. I appreciate your time.

DS: Thank you.

TS: Angela Tortorice is a marathon runner... and, according to the Mega Marathon List, the first woman in the U.S to run 1,000 marathons. We reached her in Dallas, Texas.

[Music: Surf rock]

SOD/FOA: NASA Mars Recordings

TS: "At some point, we thought the microphone was broken. It was so quiet." That's what one astrophysicist admitted after hearing this.

[Sound: A slight hum that has a few seconds of distortion]

TS: Okay, I'm not an astrophysicist. But I have to agree. That kinda sounds like my fridge? But mostly, it sounds like a whole lot of nothing. Which is accurate, given that there's a whole lot of nothing on Mars. And if there's something, it's holding its breath and walking on tiptoes… in puffy slippers. That recording was made by NASA's Perseverance rover. It's one of a handful of recordings Perseverance has sent back since it landed last year. And in a new study published in Nature, the researchers who analyzed the recordings reveal that sound travels much more slowly on Mars than it does on Earth -- roughly 100 meters per second slower -- due to low atmospheric pressure. That means sounds like that Martian breeze and rover buzz you just heard can be picked up by the human ear -- but they are incredibly soft. The recordings might be nearly silent and admittedly dull. But they are music to Jason Achilles Mezilis' ears. Last February, the Los Angeles-based musician told us how he helped NASA design the microphone on-board the rover.

[sc]

JASON ACHILLES MEZILIS: After I found out that this mission was going forward to send a microphone up there, a couple of microphones actually, I put together a kind of a proposal of considerations and ways I thought, I could help sort of coming from the audio engineering perspective as opposed to the rocket science engineering. As it turned out, they were looking for somebody to kind of fill that role. [CO chuckles] So, it was just perfect timing.

CAROL OFF: Right. And that's the Jet Propulsion Laboratory that thought, well, maybe you're the guy to go with. And so, did you have ideas? Were were you able to say, yeah, I have an idea how you can record sound on Mars?

JAM: Well, they… they already had the idea to do it. So basically, I approached them with a lot of technical considerations. Initially, I got hired to do a custom design. And then, that actually had to get nixed for funding reasons. So, what we ended up doing was helping JPL select an off-the-shelf component, which ended up being this company called DPA. And it's a microphone that they built that normally goes in recording studios. It's a nice, high-end studio microphone. We measured aspects of durability and chemical compositions of, like, the diaphragm -- all these considerations that have to go into it. And we felt that this would probably be our best shot at surviving the… the brutality of launch, landing, Martian surface operations and obviously, you know, travelling through deep space for six months.

CO: [chuckling] Now, so you're telling me that the microphone is just off-the-shelf? It's, like, kind of the same as the microphone I'm speaking through to speak with you right now?

JAM: It's… yeah, it's… it's a studio microphone. It's a mic anybody can… can buy. And it's been tested to a certain degree of thermal cycling, which is important. The Martian surface gets really, really cold at night. And so every day, you've got this crazy temperature swings. And… but yeah, basically there's some minor modifications, but for the most part, it's… yeah, [chuckle] it's something you can buy.

CO: What do you hope that they get to record through your microphone?

JAM: So, you know, it's interesting, right? Listening to the sounds of Mars is kind of like listening to the sounds of yourself walking through the desert. On Mars, most of what we hear will be noise that we make with the rover from the drill or maybe the wheels on the surface if we can capture that. There is a bit of the wind sounds, there might be some unexpected atmospheric things. But most of what we hear is going to be sounds we generate. And I think that's going to be the most thrilling aspect of this is, you know, hearing that drill boring into the rocks and things like that. [chuckling]

CO: Music from the spheres.

JAM: [chuckling] Yes, music from one spearheaded to another. Yeah.

[/sc]

TS: From last February, rock musician-turned-NASA-consultant, Jason Achilles Mezilis, speaking with our former host, Carol Off, about the microphone that's currently aboard NASA's Perseverance Mars rover.

[Music: Ambient]

Part 3: Baseball Returns

Baseball Returns

TS: For months, baseball fans across the country have had the date marked in their calendar. Tonight, the Toronto Blue Jays take on the Texas Rangers in their home opener. Whether it was COVID, or endless collective bargaining negotiations, it's been unclear whether we'd have any baseball to cheer for this season. So to mark the big occasion, we thought we'd slide into our archives, and dust off some of our favourite baseball-themed interviews. Jamie Campbell knows as well as anyone what tonight's game means for the legions of baseball fans in Canada. Mr. Campbell is the host of Blue Jays Central on Sportsnet. And during the early stages of the pandemic, when baseball was on hiatus, Mr. Campbell spoke with former host Carol Off about why he decided to call up and check-in on fans.

[sc]

CO: Jamie, how did this idea occur you to start calling up Blue Jays fans?

JAMIE CAMPBELL: Oh, Carol, I was just riding my bike in as much isolation as I could find, and was thinking of ways that I could help other people through social media since we're all confined. And it occurred to me that over the years, whenever someone had approached me in a public place to make a comment of some kind, they would often say, oh, my grandmother loves you, or my dad watches the show all the time. And I would often say, well, hey, let's give him a phone call right now. [CO laughs warmly] And I'd stand there with complete strangers talking to their parents or their grandparents. And the reaction was always wonderful. And the people on the other end of the line were so surprised to hear from me. And I just loved doing it. So I thought, this is a perfect time, given that I really don't have a job right now because there's no baseball [laughing]l. I can spend some time reaching out to, you know, the legions of Blue Jays fans that watch our show and our ballgames every single night of the summer.

CO: So how many how many did you expect? How many people would take you up on his offer, would you anticipate?

JC: I think I thought maybe I'd get one hundred requests, and I'm well over 2,000 now.

CO: [laughing] You're calling up 2,000 people?

JC: Well, it depends on how long we're held inside, right? I guess I'm at the mercy of COVID-19. But I hope I don't have to [CO chuckles]. I hope at some point we're all allowed to go out and live our lives in normalcy, and I get back to work doing Blue Jays baseball, and I just don't have the time to call people. But for now, I'm going to continue.

CO: All right. So you call them up, and Blue Jays fans know your voice. And so how did they react when they hear you?

JC: Many of them think it's a hoax. I've had some people hang up on me. One lady, I'll never forget this, was so overwhelmed when she heard my voice, she didn't know what to say, because her granddaughter had warned her that I might call, that she burst into tears and hung up on me because she just didn't know what to say. And I didn't realize that she'd done this. And I didn't think I wanted to call back because I didn't know how she'd respond. And thankfully, I called back. She explained what had happened, and we ended up having a marvellous conversation for about 20 minutes.

CO: You have had a number of quite memorable conversations. Can you tell us a couple of it really stuck out?

JC: Yeah, there are a few. I spoke with one lady who really didn't follow baseball at all. And back in 2016. She was diagnosed with cancer. And somewhere around July 1st, she began chemotherapy. And it was suggested to her that maybe she tune in to the ball game. It was the Canada Day special, which is always just a wonderful experience. So she watched a Canada Day game between the Blue Jays and Cleveland for basically the first time. And that game ended up famously going 19 innings. And she was so riveted, [CO chuckling] she hasn't stopped watching baseball since. And it helped her through chemotherapy. And it's just sort of brightened her life. And I'm just thrilled to hear that.

CO: Any others? Any other conversations?

JC: Yeah. You know, I spoke with a man on Vancouver Island, who was diagnosed with brain cancer eleven years ago, and they’d gave him six months to a year to live. And he is still, obviously, doing very, very well. And when we talked to said, well, are you from Vancouver Island originally? He said, no, I’m from the United States. But when I was 18 or 19 years old, in the late 60s, I was drafted into the army to serve in Vietnam. And I decided I wanted nothing to do with the war. So I escaped to Canada.

CO: Wow!

JC: Yeah.

CO: Amazing stories. I mean, you're calling these people up in order to chat baseball, but then you get these other anecdotes and stories that you have been relaying to many people. So do you ever talk baseball with them [laughing]?

JC: Rarely [hearty laughing]. We rarely talk about baseball. I mean, baseball is the fabric of the conversation because a lot of them will repeat these wonderful stories about experiences that they've had depending on on where they were and who they were with and games that they saw. But oftentimes, it's a conversation about family. I spoke with one couple in London, Ontario, The LotTs, L-O-T-T. And their daughters are on the frontline right now. One of them is actually in an E.R. in Michigan somewhere. And they are doing their part to help people. And we had this extensive conversation, and half the time, I’m 15, 20 minutes into our conversation and realized we haven't even touched on baseball yet.

CO: What effect is this is having on you? I mean, you're hearing these stories, all these people. It's usually just a one-way street. You're just broadcasting to them about baseball. And now you're hearing from all the people who watch you about their lives.

JC: It's had a profound impact on me in that I am absolutely privileged to be able to call complete strangers and invite myself into their lives and have them open up to me about who they are and what makes them tick. Because my thinking is if I didn't have the job that I have, and didn't have the profile that I have, if I was just really a complete stranger who operated, I don't know, a car dealership in Kenora, my call probably wouldn't be well received. [CO chuckles] But it's automatically received because of what I do for a living and the fact they see me on their televisions most summers. And that's a privilege for me.

CO: People's lives revolve around things like, well, if it could be music or art or baseball or sports. And these things, they plan their days and weeks and months, even their operations as we're hearing around these sporting events. What kind of hole is this leaving in their lives that the baseball season isn't happening?

JC: It seems to be leaving a gigantic hole on a daily basis. When you think about it, the season was supposed to begin Thursday, and so many people, especially in their later years, rely on baseball every single day. It's that one best friend that they know is gonna be there on their television screens at night or during the day if it's on a weekend. And they put it in their calendars to make sure they're home by 6:30 or 7 o'clock Eastern Time to tune into the ballgame and see what the ball club is doing. It's almost like that reliable friend. And suddenly that friend isn't around anymore. And it's just left this real gaping hole in their daily routine.

[/sc]

TS: From 2020, Blue Jays broadcaster Jamie Campbell, speaking with Carol Off, about calling baseball fans during the early days of the pandemic. As you just heard, every fan has their own way of expressing their fandom. Some never miss a game. Some obsess over stats. And some collect merch and memorabilia. Take Thomas Newman. When the Florida neurologist died last year, he left behind one of the greatest collections of baseball cards and memorabilia in the U.S. It eventually sold for over $21.5 million US at auction. Before it sold, Carol spoke with Mr. Newman's wife, Nancy, about the incredible collection.

[sc]

CO: What did these cards mean to him? How much joy did your husband get from this collection?

NN: [Chuckles] It was one of his favourite things in life. I mean, I knew him for 20 years, we were married for 17, and he enjoyed it every day that I knew him. It was so cute. He called them his "Paper babies." He was always searching for a better one and he would get them out and play with them. He was a great collector.

CO: Now, I've seen a U-Haul truck full of boxes. How many cards did he have?

NN: Oh he had thousands and thousands. That U-Haul truck, that's a really funny picture. The first truck they got, it was so heavy that it kind of sunk down and they had to take everything out of that truck to get a bigger one. And then, of course, they had JP's Surburban for the real valuable cards. It took them days and days and days to get them out of his office and our house. But now they're all in California.

CO: I mean, the sheer volume alone is really impressive. But it's these gems, right? These are really treasured cards.

NN: Yes, very rare cards and some gems, like you said.

CO: Can you tell us about some? The Babe Ruth card, I guess in particular.

NN: You know, I don't have a lot of technical knowledge about his cards. I knew that he had a coveted Babe Ruth card, that he had the best in the world and that lived here for a long time. We were very careful not to let anybody know that it lived here, you know, like JP and a few other people knew we had it. And occasionally he'd be approached about whether he would sell it. He would never sell any of his good cards. He would sell cards only if he had a better card of the same card. He was a true collector. He didn't care about the money. It was the glory for him. He really enjoyed building a wonderful, deep, rich collection.

CO: You mentioned JP -- and that's JP Cohen, I believe.

NN: Yes JP Cohen from Memory Lane, yes.

CO: And he said in a quote this 1933 Babe Ruth card is "the finest known of its kind," and he expects it to break the record for any sports card and fetch as much as 5.2 million dollars.

NN: Right, right. No, he had two or three really rare ones. And he had some beautiful cards also of value, but not the two or three that we're talking about just with these brilliant colours. And they were so old. And it was amazing to me how colour could stay so strong for so long.

CO: And they came with a stick of gum. [Laughter]

NN: [Laughter] Yes, some of them did. Exactly. There were some larger cards, that turkey red series that were just gorgeous in terms of colour and everything. They probably didn't come with the stick of gum. But I remember the ones that came with a stick of gum. [Chuckles] I used to collect them too.

CO: And your husband certainly would have remembered that too, because he started to collect when he was a kid, right?

NN: He did, yes. Like everybody else's mother, they threw them out when he went to college.

CO: I read that. She threw out all his baseball cards that he had been collecting since he was ten

NN: Umm hmm (in agreement). When he was an adult and out of medical school and residency and came back to Tampa to practise, his mother would actually go to card shows and help him with his booth or whatever.

CO: because he tried to rebuild that, I guess he has rebuilt that collection that his mom threw out.

NN: Yes. Laughs] He seriously rebuilt it. Yes. There wasn't a baseball team or baseball player that he didn't know things about. He had an amazing mind and he loved to put it to use with his collecting.

CO: He travelled a lot to do the collecting. Tell us a bit about how often he was on the road.

NN: Well, once a year we would go to the Nationals. And he was like a little boy getting excited. It was the best time of the year for him. Until COVID came, we went every year. The first few years I'd actually go to the show with him, but it was mostly me just tagging along, I really didn't know much about it. So after that, he would bring a friend who's also a collector from Tampa. And the wives, we would enjoy the city. [Dog barks in background]

CO: And your husband, amongst many other things you mentioned that he did, he was a doctor. And you mentioned...

NN: He was a very fine neurologist. You know, everybody loved him, his patients. And they're grieving like I am. [Dog barks in background] He was the kind of doctor that other doctors would send their family.

CO: Sounds like your dog misses him too.

NN: I know. I'm sorry. I had to get her a kitty to take her mind off Tom.

CO: And your husband died of complications from COVID.

NN: Yes, he did. Very very sad.

CO: Oh, I am sorry.

NN: The world lost a great person.

CO: And he's getting all this attention and for his collection. What would he think of all this hullabaloo about this collection?

NN: As quiet as he was about his collection, and part of that was he didn't ever want to sell it, so he didn't really care if anybody knew about it and for security purposes he didn't want a lot of people know about it, but he was a huge fan. He loved to do a solo with his music. He's probably looking down very excited about all the attention. It's exciting that collectors all over the world now are going to have the opportunity to have some of these cards. You know, they're so rare and it's going to be nice for the collecting world.

CO: A lot of them probably knew your husband.

NN: Oh, yes, many of them did, yes. But they had no idea how serious his collection was.

CO: They're in for a surprise. [Laughs]

NN: [Laughs] Yeah, they're just starting to get it now.

[/sc]

TS: From May of last year, Carol speaking with Nancy Newman about her late husband's baseball card collection.

[Music: “Take Me Out To The Ball Game”]

TS: Oh! Excuse me, I will just squeeze by here! Thanks for holding my seat. I just had to grab some more peanuts and cracker jacks before the seventh-inning stretch. There's definitely some perks that come with cheering for a sports team. The snacks alone are worth it. But it can be a tough gig. You can invest in a team for years and never see them snap their losing streak. And if you were a fan rooting for the Chicago Cubs during the '80s -- it was a miserable time. Don Costello was a life-long Cubs fan. But when he died, his son discovered some letters that revealed his devotion to the team waned during the '80s. That's when a very jaded Mr. Costello started offering himself up as a "free agent fan" to other MLB teams. In 2020, Carol spoke with Don Kostelec about his dad's campaign to find work cheering for another team.

[sc]

CO: Don, can you tell us what kind of an offer your dad was making to other teams back in the early 80s?

DON KOSTELEC: Well as a very frustrated Cubs fan, and this was only a few years after Curt Flood and free agency, so he made himself a free agent fan and shopped himself around to other ball clubs.

CO: Okay, what did he mean by that, do you think?

DK: I think it was a decade of pent up frustration of the Cubs being really bad. He would tell me, you know, they wouldn't even open the upper deck at Wrigley Field during that time period. So I think he was just fed up and he offered to sign essentially play for free as a fan with any club that would sign him.

CO: And how many clubs did he write to?

DK: I don't know for sure. I suspect, and this is just kind of knowing him from other endeavors, he probably wrote every single one except for the Cardinals and the White Sox. He would have never offered his services to them under any circumstances. [Laughter]

CO: That's hilarious. Now, the fun thing is, is that what you found are the letters back to him responding to his offer to be a free agent fan. And so what did you think when you found these letters?

DK: So I was going through a folder of his papers and things. And here are these three letters there. And I just kind of saw the letterhead of a couple of major league ball teams and I started reading them and going, wow, these are just witty and fantastic and unique in their different ways. And we just kind of passed them around and got a laugh. And it's like, that was so like my dad to do something like that. But wow, you know, just the Expos one, of the guy essentially talking them off the ledge, "I know you really don't want to do this." The one from the Brewers, which the great line "If you think you're the reasons for the Cubs travails, then by all means root for the Yankees." And then really the the Mariners one to me of just really saying that, "No, we're still on player development and all of this stuff." And given him that rejection, had some Mariners fans react with me and they've said, yeah, that explains the Mariners mentality to this day.

CO: Let's start with that one, because I want to tease out some other details. But the Seattle Mariners letter he got back. Dear Donald -- they say -- Thank you for writing, but we know when we reach the point that we are on the verge of going all the way. A fan with your experience, maybe what we need to put us over the top and at that time you can assure we will be interested in your services. [Laughs]

DK: And 40 years later they still never reach back. So I guess it explains a lot.

CO: I want to ask you about the Montreal Expos one, because this is really very, very clever. And they said that "If I know anything about a longtime loyal Cub fan, you will not only remain one, you will withdraw from your free agency threat and rededicate yourself to the Chicago Cubs. And if you don't, the trauma you would suffer would imperil your sporting health seriously." [Laughter] How is it that he never told you that he was getting these letters?

DK: I think he did this, you know, at times when the Cubs would come in and here's a new general manager and a new manager and there would be hope and it would never come to pass. And so this was probably just his every four or five year routine thing. And I, in packing up his stuff, I didn't get a chance to go through all of it in such detail. So maybe there is more in there from other eras and things. But I don't know. You know, kind of after I got to college, I would visit him a couple times a year. So it wasn't like we would go through memorabilia. And he may have even forgotten about these things -- just sitting in a file.

CO: You must be gems in those collections. Just a question about how miserable life might have been for a Chicago Cubs fan back then, what was it like to try and root for the Cubs during that era?

DK: Well, I mean, I look back, my grandfather sold newspapers outside Wrigley Field to get in the games. My dad was here and going through that. I worked as a stringer at Wrigley Field when I was in graduate school. And I mean, we're going on, you know, generational misery up until 2016. And you know, that Steve Goodman song, A Dying Cub Fan's Last Request, I mean, to me just always sums up the Cubs fans experience over the decade. And he certainly lived every minute that same way that that song outlines.

CO: But to actually ask other clubs if he could come and be their fan, that's quite a betrayal, isn't it?

DK: Yes. It was funny -- it's like no true Cubs fan would ever do that. And I'm like, well, you to understand the Cubs of the 70s. And they had just come off the 1960s where they had Ernie Banks and Ron Santo and Billy Williams and Fergie Jenkins -- hall of famers -- and really were just duds in the 70s. So I look at this of like just a decade of pent up frustration that finally came out in this form.

CO: So he finally got his reward in 2016. And he actually was starting to work at the stadium, right? Is that the case?

DK: Yes. When he retired, a friend of his encouraged him to apply for a job at stadium operations for the Cubs. And he started doing that. And yeah, that's when they started to hit their stride. He worked the World Series at Wrigley Field that season. And then the Cubs bought a World Series ring for every employee. So he got one of those and was presented with that and he left it to my daughter. So, yeah, this story kind of has the ultimate reward, especially going back to the Expos letter, if he truly stuck it out and was certainly able to live that thing that so many Cubs fans did not get to see in their lifetime. Here's just a blue collar guy from Chicago who was a fan and got to work there. But now all of a sudden, he's had an impact, right? He's had an impact because of these letters he wrote 40 years ago and got replies for it. So for me, it's been therapeutic. It's just blown away that it has touched that many people and he touched that many people that I would have never known otherwise.

[/sc]

TS: From 2020, Carol speaking with Don Kostelec after he discovered his dad was a free agent baseball fan. Dave Raymond knows what it means to treat your fandom like a job. For 16 years, Mr. Raymond was the mascot for the Philadelphia Phillies -- the original, and now iconic, "Philly Phanatic". During the early stages of the pandemic, he sympathized with mascots across the league, who were often left to cheer in empty arenas alongside cardboard cut-outs.

[sc]

ANNOUNCER: Phanatic has some issues with Ron De Bases, [get it?] the Marlins fan, who is at home plate. I’m trying to think the good thing is he can entertain himself.

ANNOUNCER TWO: Yeah, he's very good at that, Pat. Of course, when you have no friends, you gotta learn to entertain yourself.

[/sc]

TS: A clip of play-by-play announcer is ribbing the Philly Phanatic in 2020 for not having any fans to entertain. In 2020, guest host Susan Bonner spoke with Mr. Raymond about what it's like to be a major league baseball mascot -- and how many showers it takes to wash off the smell of the costume after a shift.

[sc]

SB: Dave, as you watch the current Phillie Phanatic in action, what did you imagine was going through the mascot's mind as they stepped out to perform in that empty stadium for the first time?

DAVE RAYMOND: Well, I'm certain there is a strange feel to it. But I also know that the personality of the Phanatic is what drives you. You truly become the Phanatic. And when that happens, when that magic happens, it's hard to stump somebody who's who's got that ability to entertain themselves, if you will.

SB: You always hear about feeding off the energy of the crowd. [DR laughs] And then you heard the announcers talking about how this mascot had no friends around and maybe looked a bit sad. How would you respond to that?

DR: Well, you know, sad is not the way I would look at it. It's a challenge and it's a very interesting dynamics to go through. So when you see the Phanatic working with a cutout, and making them smile and laugh doing that, then it's a success.

SB: Wait a minute! He made the cutout laugh and smile?

DR: Well, he didn't make the cutout laugh, but he made the people that were watching him having fun with the cutout laugh because it was consistent with what he would do with a live actual opposing fan. So I remember watching it and just giggling and sharing it on my social media and getting a lot of positive response in the same way. [warm chuckle]

SB: Yeah, he sprayed the cutout with Silly String.

DR: Yeah, and probably popcorn and soda would come next. But we'll wait for that act.

SB: [chuckling] Well, you mention that it's challenging. How much harder does the mascot have to work?

DR: Well, you know, you really said it, any performer feeds off the energy of the crowd. So what the character performer needs to do at that time is recognize that even though he doesn't have the audience to work off of, the television audience is bigger than any audience most likely he'd been performing from. So when that stadium’s full, it's 45 to 48-thousand fans. But just a few seconds of a shot, you're having hundreds of thousands and millions of fans watching you on television. So you need to pretend or know that you are being watched. And those people are at home laughing and responding. So just as if, you know, as a broadcaster, if you're on the air, you're either looking for that red light, or you're looking for the camera light to go on. And you have to assume that you have an engaged audience that is reacting and really being entertained through your work. And it’s not easy. But the really good performers can do that seamlessly. Like, it doesn't even matter. And certainly, you see that one of the best mascots ever in the Phanatic because that whole organization treats him like he's a living, breathing entity anyway.

SB: Well, given the circumstances that baseball is coping with, the questions around safety, are mascots really essential now?

DR: Yeah, absolutely. That's a great question, Susan. They are. And that's what I've argued for from the beginning. Think of what we're talking about. We're talking about sports, an entertainment feature in and of itself. Its whole reason for being for sports is for us to be entertained. So what you want to do is broaden your audience base. So what better than to have a Muppet as the representative of your team spirit, so that younger people can get connected through first falling in love with you and then recognizing how beautiful baseball is. And if you wipe away the mascots, oh, well, there's no fans in the stands. Yeah, but the fans are missing that already. Now they're watching from home, looking for some sense of normalcy. And, oh, there's the Phanatic in the stands. There's the mascot in the stands. Fooling around with empty stands isn't that funny. And, you know, a twist of humour is really what we need. We need the power of fun, now more than ever. And you can't just say, well, we can't have fun. We can't be entertaining because we need to be serious and safe. You can do both.

SB: You can do both. Should the mascots wear masks?

DR: [laughing] Well, look, they have as a prop for sure. But think about this. The performer is actually wearing the best mask that could ever be built. I mean, they are protected from that type of spray going out because they have really masks, a full body mask if you think about it. And they're not interacting closely with the players or the umpires; they're not allowed to be on the field. So you talk about, you know, six feet of distance. They're hundreds of feet away from any person. So absolutely, they're safe.

SB: It's not the same story, though, for the players and all the people that support them directly, given the outbreaks that we've seen in Miami and other testing going on. Is this whole thing going to even fly? Is it gonna work?

DR: Yeah. [awkward laugh] Well, I certainly hope it does and. And I'm not hoping against hope. I think sports are essential to our attitudes, to our emotional health. And my hope is they'll have some outbreaks. They'll quarantine. And then for the most part, that we're not going to see widespread outbreaks in these teams, because I really think as human beings, this is what we need.

SB: Do you ever miss being the Phillies mascot?

DR: [chuckling] I miss the fans reaction. I certainly don't miss taking four showers a day.

SB: Really, that's how many showers you have to take? I've wondered about that.

DR: [laughing] Well, you go in costume, you completely soak yourself. You can lose six to eight pounds of water weight, and you're doing an appearance and then getting to the next appearance, and then you're doing the game. And it's hard, hard work. I miss the response to the crowds, but, you know, as a keynote speaker, I'm performing. So I get to exercise that love of working and being in service of an audience. But I missed the Philadelphia fans and 100 per cent unadulterated love that they have for the Phanatic.

SB: Good to talk to you, Dave. Thank you very much.

DR: Thanks, Susan. Bye now.

[/sc]

TS: From 2020, guest host Susan Bonner speaking with former Philadelphia Phillies team mascot, Dave Raymond.

Back To Top »

Provide Transcript Feedback

CBC would like to acknowledge the support of the Broadcasting Accessibility Fund.

April 08, 2022 Episode Transcript

More Stories Like This