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The AIH Transcript For April 4, 2022

Hosts: Helen Mann and Chris Howden

HELEN MANN: Hello, I'm Helen Mann.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden, this is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

HM: Fight and flight. As evidence mounts of apparent war crimes in Ukraine, a resident of Bucha tells us what he experienced when he fled the city last month -- and about the horrors visited on those left behind.

CH: Counterproductive. The Taliban says it's clamping down on opium producers in Afghanistan. But our guest says a ban on the poppy harvest will cause financial misery and political instability.

HM: Cause for optimism. After years of fighting, Iran-backed rebels and a Saudi-led coalition have reached a ceasefire in Yemen. And an aid worker in the country tells us even a two-month truce could save countless lives.

CH: The bear of bad news. A woman in Northern Newfoundland tells us about the moment a polar bear knocked on her door -- and the one tiny decision that helped keep it out.

HM: A game of cat and mouth. A British company is set to offer a variety of exotic animal meats, including lab-grown lion. But it remains to be seen whether consumers are ready for the main course.

CH: And… worse for wear. A software developer in San Francisco says Patagonia vests are no longer a good look for the city's so-called tech bros -- and he's got plenty of reasons up his full-length sleeves.

CH: As It Happens, the Monday edition. Radio that would have thought fleece vests were perfectly armless.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Ukraine: Bucha, Yemen Truce, Newfoundland Polar Bear

Ukraine: Bucha

Guest: Taras Shevchenko

CH: Before the war, residents of Bucha in Ukraine praised their city for its greenery and architecture. Today, Bucha is in ruins, and dozens are dead. And there's mounting evidence of the mass killings of civilians. After recapturing the area from Russian forces, Ukrainian officials say 400 bodies -- of civilians -- have been found in the towns around Kyiv, including in Bucha. Associated Press journalists reported seeing the bodies of 21 people in that city, including nine wearing civilian clothes, who appeared to have been shot at close range. At least two had their hands tied behind their backs. Canada's foreign affairs minister, Melanie Joly, called the deaths "shocking", and says Canada will "not spare any effort, including investigations of war crimes, to ensure that those responsible are held to account." Taras Shevchenko is a longtime resident of Bucha who fled the city last month. We reached him in central Ukraine. And a warning, this conversation includes descriptions of violence and death.

HM: Taras, today, President Volodymyr Zelensky was in Bucha and denounced these killings as genocide and war crimes. What has it been like for you to see so much death and destruction in your city?

TARAS SHEVCHENKO: It's very depressing. You know, they killed us just for a smile, just for a picture, just for a joke. And I don't know what's happened in the Russian mind in that moment.

HM: Before you left Bucha, did you yourself see any evidence of Russian forces going after civilians?

TS: Yes, I saw so much soldiers that were Russians, and they were very aggressive. One man, maybe 85 years and his wife, 83, they go on the road and eight soldiers, they ask, stay here. And this old man, he ask, why are you stopping us? We are old. We won't go to home. And the soldiers just killed him, you know?

HM: Right in front of his wife?

TS: And the wife to go to body and cried.

HM: Oh my. [deep breath]

TS: And she said, what about the body? Don't worry about the body. If you won't stay here, I will kill you. You know, he speak with her like she's trash, you know? And she goes out, and she very, very cried. And my mother took this woman, and they get her some medicine and some water because that woman very, very shocked.

HM: I'm so sorry.

TS: Mm-hmm.

HM: Can you tell us about the day that you left, which was, I understand, March 11th? What happened that day?

TS: Soldiers go to every apartment, destroyed door and take all mens to kill. And I understand if I will stay, they will kill me. And I go… not go. I run.

HM: Your mother was hiding in a basement, and you went to her as well to get out. Can you tell us about how you left?

TS: Yeah, I woke up, and I ran to the basement to pick up my mom. It was 8:45 morning. And at that moment, as there was shooting, my mother said, did you get our dog? And I said, yes, the dog in my jacket inside. And we ran to the city hall for a green corridor, but they only let the woman and children through. So we decided that mom will go via green corridor and I will join as their man, and we will walk to another city to go to Kyiv, you know?

HM: Tell me about that walk that you made with these other men. Did you face attacks?

TS: Yeah, we started to walk maybe 20 mens. We go on the roads and stayed on the hills with other mans. The bullets started to burst past them. Some went down. Others tried to run and tried to hide from what we assumed to be snipers. We could not even help the wounded because once you come close to someone who fell, you can get shot too. I was constantly looking back and sideways, you know? We did not care about each other. Just some animal instincts took over. I felt like I was a concentration camp escapee, you know?

HM: Mm-hmm.

TS: My heart, you know, like… like, attacked every second.

HM: Like a heart attack all the time.

TS: Yeah, I didn't know how to breath, you know? There's so much snipers.

HM: It sounds like it must have been just terrifying?

TS: Mm-hmm. [deep exhale]

HM: So the International Criminal Courts prosecutor has opened an investigation into the conflict. At the same time, Russia is saying that these scenes in Bucha and Irpin were staged. That they are fake. What do you think when you hear that?

TS: It's not fake because I am from Bucha. And other peoples who stay in Bucha, they can't lie too. It's not fake, not fake.

HM: How are you and your mother doing today? Are you safe?

TS: Yes. But when I got a safe place and some time passed, I felt like I was in the movie The Matrix, you know?

HM: The movie.

TS: Uh-huh. Like, someone dragged me by my hair and threw me into this matrix for 16 days. And later, they felt sorry for me. Pulled me out and back to the peaceful world. Patted me on my head and told me, Good, you survived.

HM: I'm sorry for everything that you have lost. Thank you so much for talking to us. Please take care.

TS: Thank you and goodbye.

CH: Taras Shevchenko is a longtime resident of Bucha who fled with his mother last month. We reached him in central Ukraine.

[Music: Acoustic guitar and violin]

Yemen Truce

Guest: Renata Rendon

CH: Yemen has now been in the throes of a civil war for more than seven years. Nearly 400,000 people have died, and millions more have been displaced. But now, finally, there's a sign of relief -- and reason to hope. The UN has brokered a two-month truce between the warring Saudi-led coalition and Houthi rebels. It's the first nationwide accord since 2016. Renata Rendon is the advocacy manager for the Norwegian Refugee Council in Yemen. We reached her in Aden.

HM: Renata, how are people in Yemen responding to the news of this truce?

RENATA RENDON: I think there was a collective sigh of relief… of relief and a sense of hopefulness among humanitarian aid workers and Yemeni communities alike. Yemeni people are actually quite optimistic. We can see this not only in the streets, but also across social media that there has been quite a positive response so far. The truce was announced at the start of the holy month of Ramadan, so things have been quite peaceful. And my colleague said to me yesterday that his brother-in-law, who's suffering from liver cancer, is hopeful that he may actually be able to get a flight out of Sana'a to a neighbouring country where he can receive the medical care he needs and hasn't been able to get over several years. So I think people are very hopeful, and I think people see that there may be opportunities for them as a result of this truce.

HM: And have… have things been peaceful since the agreement took effect over the weekend? Has it held?

RR: So far, things have been quite peaceful. We have received some reports of skirmishes here and there, but I believe that the UN was prepared for this, and I'm not aware of any significant breach of the truce to date. So, so far, so good, although we're just a few days into it, of course.

HM: Now, who signed on to the agreement, and which parties might be missing?

RR: The parties to the conflict that have agreed to the UN-led truce are Ansar Allah, who are also known as the Houthis, who control the north of the country and the internationally-recognized government of Yemen, which controls the south of the country. And these are the two main parties to the conflict that have agreed to this truce. There are other armed groups, of course, operating in the country that are not a part of this truce, but these are the two main actors.

HM: What are some of the specific points in the agreement that have been reached in practical terms? You know, what's it going to mean?

RR: Well, they've announced and agreed to a halt to all military offensives in the country. They've also agreed on the entry of fuel ships into Hudaydah port, which under the blockade, have been waiting to dock on average for over 100 days, leading to a crippling fuel shortage in the country, especially in the north of Yemen. They've also agreed to opening the Sana'a airport, which has been closed for commercial flights since 2015, as well as opening roads in different parts of the country to facilitate a movement of civilian women, men and children. And, of course, they're hoping that they will be able to agree and build a foundation for a longer-lasting peace agreement.

HM: It's been more than seven years since the civil war began. How dire is the situation right now?

RR: Yes. Well, in March, the conflict in Yemen entered into its eighth year, and overall, the number of people in need of humanitarian assistance has risen since last year, from 20.7 million to 23.4 million. That's the equivalent of almost twice the population of Ontario in need of humanitarian aid, and it's around 80 per cent of the Yemen Yemeni population. So it's really quite a staggering number. The conflict is, of course, the main driver of the humanitarian crisis. And as I mentioned earlier, the start of this year was particularly brutal. January saw the highest number of civilian casualties since records began in 2018, with almost one civilian killed or injured every hour. So the conflict has intensified this year, and it's really the Yemeni people who are bearing the brunt of it. And the needs are, of course, deepening.

HM: How challenging has it been for aid groups like yours to get help to these so many people who need it so desperately?

RR: Well, of course, the ability to access communities is often impacted by the active conflict and insecurity. So a halt to the fighting can be significant in accessing some of the especially hard-to-reach communities. But the easing of the blockade on the entry of fuel into Hudaydah port will actually also be very significant because even communities that are not cut off from humanitarian aid as a result of fighting are becoming harder to reach just because there is no fuel to fill vehicles, to reach them, to provide services or to deliver food or other essential items. Likewise, community members are finding it harder and harder to arrive to, you know, distribution or other service delivery sites like health centres or schools. And, of course, the fuel shortage means it's harder to get foods and other goods to, you know, remote places. And prices, therefore, increase.

HM: Should the ceasefire hold as agreed to, you have a two-month window to get help to as many people as you possibly can. What do you think groups like yours can accomplish in that period of time?

RR: I think we can accomplish a lot. We already, despite the many access challenges that we face, we already do have access, and we do everything in our power to maintain access and to open up access to hard-to-reach communities. But we will certainly be taking advantage of this opportunity to try to support the UN in any way possible to make these hard to reach communities easier to reach by opening up roads and also lobbying the international community to do everything in its power to support the parties to be successful in this truce.

HM: Renata, thank you very much for talking with us. It's good to hear some positive news coming out of Yemen these days.

RR: Thanks so much for having me.

HM: Okay, bye-bye.

CH: Renata Rendon is the advocacy manager for the Norwegian Refugee Council in Yemen. We reached her in Aden. And you can find more on this story on our webpage at www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient]

Newfoundland Polar Bear

Guest: Paula Talbot

CH: It was a little after midnight, and Paula Talbot figured it was time to get some sleep. So, she locked her door, for some reason -- she doesn't usually do that -- and got into bed. And then, she heard something. And what she found by her door this weekend left her fearing for her safety and her 14-year-old daughter's. We reached Paula Talbot in Conche, on Newfoundland's Northern Peninsula.

HM: Paula, tell us about this noise you heard when you were in your bedroom the other night about to go to sleep?

PAULA TALBOT: Sounded like somebody was at my door, like trying my knob. And first, I was thinking, well, maybe it's just my friend across the street that just decided she wants to come and visit me. It was on a Saturday night, but then, like, it got louder and, like, I could hear it. It was like a bang. And then it was, like, on the glass.

HM: Oh.

PT: And then, I start thinking, well, it's definitely not someone in Conche that would be trying that hard to get to visit me. I was starting to think then that maybe somebody was trying to break into my home.

HM: So what did you do?

PT: I was scared. And I said, well, I have to go see. So I came out of my bedroom. Soon, as I took the corner, my front door, which I had a glass, was directly in front of me. The light was on over the door, and I could see it was the polar bear. He was stretched on his hind legs. I could… I could see all his upper body. Like, in the glass, I could see from his neck down. I couldn't actually see his face, but I could see him taking his right paw. And he was like scratching it down my window and the door and like… like grabbing at a little square around the glass and the window. And like he was tugging at that. I sang out to my daughter. I said, Alexis, Mom is not joking. Please don't leave your room. Don't come. There's a polar bear trying to get into the house. And I immediately went back into my room, went in the closet, took the phone and I tried to reach a friend of mine. Actually called their house twice. They didn't pick up. So, here I was with my landline, going and trying with my cell phone, I called my other girlfriend on my cell phone. She picked up, luckily, on the first ring. And I was screaming in the phone, tell your husband to come, come with a gun. There's a bear trying to get in my house. He's on my front step. I seen him. I seen him. And she was, okay, okay, he'll come. And at this time, my landline rang back. It was my friend that didn't answer the phone. And I was crying and saying, tell your husband to come, come. It's a polar bear. Like, I've seen him. And at this time, the bangs, like, he was, like, really smacking the house. My daughter had heard it. The two cats were on the bed with her.

HM: Did you think he was going to get in?

PT: Absolutely. I was terrified. And I was like, you know, he's going to come.

HM: And are you and your daughter shouting back and forth at this moment?

PT: No, she... she didn't communicate with me at all. Like, when I screamed at her and told her don't come down. Like, I don't know. Like, she did not answer me. She did not say, Mom, are you okay? Mom, do you see the bear? She… absolutely nothing. So Marcella was actually guiding me and telling me how far her husband was. And she was telling me, like, the other guy, Ron. She said, oh, there's this other truck. This is Ron coming now. And they were all on the phone like two phones going and they were saying, can you see the bear? So I knew help was on the way, and I knew it was only going to be another minute or two when I came out of my room again, he was actually… it was almost like it was in slow motion. Like, his two paws were just sliding down my door. Like down the window. And I could see his face, like, as he was lowering himself all the way down my door, till he hit the front step like just in front of the door on his four paws. And then, like, I don't know if he was charging the door. I don't know. But like, he was on his four paws, so I couldn't see him. But I could see my door. My door was like moving. So then I started screaming again. I said, he's coming, he's coming. He's going to come in. He's coming. He's pushing the door.

HM: So when your friends showed up, when your girlfriend's husband showed up, what did they find?

PT: Like it got super quiet and I could hear the vehicle, like, pulling in my driveway. So I came into my room again, and I looked. I didn't see the bear. And I seen Paul get out of his truck. And then, the other guy, Ronnie, was just behind him. And I opened the door, and he said, did you see where he went to? And I said, no. They could see all his footings from my window to the door. So they actually tracked him. Paul, his brother, was ahead of him, but he didn't see the bear. But Paul thought that he had seen the bear. So he stopped, and he backed back a little bit. And when he backed back, sure enough, he'd seen the bear. And the bear start to like, run towards him like, you know, dashed towards his truck. And when it got out to the snowbank… like on the side roads, we have a tremendous amount of snow here. It stopped, and that's… it didn't come any further. It didn't, like, charge the truck or anything.

HM: Wow! The RCMP say that they found the tracks around your house. And from the photos I've seen, these were pretty big paw prints. I mean, they're quite enormous looking. But the police did not find the bear. Have --

PT: No, they didn't find the bear.

HM: Is this a common thing in Conche? Has this happened before?

PT: So in all my 22 years here, I honestly only know maybe two occasions that I can account for where there has been sightings of a polar bear. But, like, not like roaming the street. Like, not roaming the town's roads or, like, on personal property. Like, they've been seen, like, on the side of the road or, like, you know, just in the skidoo trail or something like that.

HM: How lucky was it that you locked your door that night when you don't always?

PT: I know. And my door, for some reason, I know because it's my door. But sometimes like, you know, someone come in or go out, they think they closed the door. But it needs that extra like push like for it to catch.

HM: Um-hmm.

PT: So I pushed the door, and I locked it, but I was thinking to myself, nine chance out of ten, I would not lock my door normally because it's only 150 people in Conche. It's a very safe haven. If the door had not been fully closed, I'm thinking maybe when the bear just stood, and the weight of him like on the door would have probably… the door would have just came open anyway.

HM: Oh, gee!

PT: But for whatever reason, I decided to lock the door that night. In question, I have no idea, but I'm just glad I did.

HM: Did you and your daughter get any sleep that night or last night, given what happened?

PT: The night that it happened, her and I went to Paul Hunt's with him and his wife. Myself, I absolutely did not close my eyes for the night. I think my daughter finally settled in around 6:00 in the morning. She was up again at 9:30. We came home. Yeah, so we sat with her. She's very quiet generally. Like she's quiet all the time, but she just seemed a little bit, you know, like she just was not herself. And I asked her, like what was going through her mind? And I said, you didn't answer me. And she goes, I heard you, and I froze. She said, I don't… I think I must have went into shock. She said I took my remote. I turned off my TV. She said I didn't even get back in my bed. I just sat on the corner of my bed, folded my arms and waited. She said I just thought life was over. I thought the polar bear was coming.

HM: Oh no.

PT: And I just thought, just stay here and wait.

HM: I'm so glad you and your daughter are safe. Thank you for taking the time to tell us what happened.

PT: Thank you for having me.

HM: Okay, you take care.

PT: You too. Thank you.

HM: Bye.

PT: Bye-bye.

CH: That was Paula Talbot speaking to us from Conche, Newfoundland, after she found a polar bear outside her door this weekend.

[Music: World]

Lab-Grown Lion Meat

[Sound: A lion roars and a bird chirps]

CH: [David Attenborough voice] The lion. King of the jungle. Its awe-inspiring roar can be heard up to eight kilometres away. Its fearsome canine teeth can grow to seven centimetres in length. And its delicious meat should go in the oven for eight to 10 minutes at 450 degrees. That sounded wrong. And I don't just mean my terrible David Attenborough imitation. Lions are majestic! They're at the top of the food chain on the African Savannah! We don't eat them. If anything, they eat us. And that's how it should be. But what if things were different? What if lion meat were readily available? Or tiger meat, giraffe meat, or zebra meat? Don't answer yet. First, you should know zebras make this sound.

[Sound: This is a zebra? It sounds like a bird call]

CH: Now do you want to eat zebras? Just to shut them up? Well, probably not. Even if you're not a vegetarian, it seems wrong to eat any of those creatures, no matter how annoying they sound. But a company called Primeval Foods wants to address that moral problem. It wants to sell lion burgers and zebra steaks that it grows in a lab. The company points out that the meats meat-eating humans eat aren't necessarily the most nutritious, or the healthiest. They just come from the animals we were able to domesticate. New technology -- "cellular agriculture", as it's called -- allows us to create meats using cells from any animal, without harming the animals. That part is appealing. The part where we're supposed to eat lions and zebras -- even lab-grown lions and zebras -- less so. For now, I think I'll stay on the sidelines -- because I'm not ready for the big game.

[Music: Ambient]

Part 2: Afghanistan Poppy Harvest, Oldest Park Ranger Retires

Afghanistan Poppy Harvest

Guest: Vanda Felbab-Brown

CH: The Taliban has announced that it's banning the opium trade. Farmers in Afghanistan have long grown poppies cultivated to produce opium -- much of which was shipped overseas to Europe and Canada. The United States spent billions of dollars over the past two decades trying to eradicate poppy crops, only to see production rise. Now the Taliban says it will put a halt to the trade -- vowing to burn fields and lay charges. But farmers in some parts of Afghanistan already have their plants in the ground. Vanda Felbab-Brown is a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution in Washington, DC. We reached her today in České Budějovice in the Czech Republic.

HM: Ms. Felbab-Brown, what effect might this ban on opium have on farmers in Afghanistan who depend on the poppy trade?

VANDA FELBAB-BROWN: Well, the ban, if it is enforced, will be absolutely devastating economically. Not just for rural populations, farmers in Afghanistan but also the economy of the country. We are in a situation where the Afghan economy has tanked since the Taliban takeover, where foreign aid has been suspended. And so, at this stage, to impose the opium poppy ban, it's an enormously risky, counterproductive, dangerous move on the part of the Taliban. Particularly if the Taliban actually intends to enforce it for an insignificant amount of time.

HM: Now, you've said twice now, if they choose to enforce it. What would be the point in issuing this ban if they don't plan to follow through?

VFB: Well, the current Taliban leadership, or at least the segments that dominate decision making, it's very conservative but also very exuberant about the victory they achieved, not just militarily on the battlefield, but their sense of how the past seven months have gone has given them, in my view, an inaccurate and irrational sense of optimism about their power and effectiveness. So they may well have resorted to very significant policy overreach without fully appreciating what kind of economic challenges and potential rebellion and social response and resistance they have set up. And then, they might decide to pull back from the enforcement. But there is a second element of the difficulty of enforcing. The predominant preoccupation of the Taliban leadership has been to maintain unity within the movement. That, in fact, consists of very disparate factions and commanders, many of whom feel slighted and dissatisfied with the government positions they've received since August 2021. But many of these commanders are dependent on the poppy economy for income and for their ability to pay their fighters.

HM: You mentioned the tanking economy, the withdrawal of foreign aid. Why do you think the Taliban has made this announcement now?

VFB: Well, I think it's very interesting. So in the 1990s, the Taliban had two motivations to be floating the idea of a ban or temporarily issuing it. The one motivation was just religious, ideological motivation. This was the reason why in '94-'95, the Taliban issued the ban. Poppy cultivation and drug use was seen as haram. And the current segment of the Taliban that is in charge of decision-making is very conservative. In many ways, it is a very restorationist group that has not learned from the key mistakes of the 1990s. It's very inward-looking. The second reason that historically in the 1990s motivated the Taliban to issue bans was bargaining with the international community. A poppy ban was one key tool the Taliban tried to get international legitimation with. And so, I don't think it's implausible. I think it's likely that perhaps they are looking to particular audiences, such as in Russia and China, and are trying to lift the ban as a way to induce the countries to recognize the Taliban regime. I don't think they will succeed, but I think that's one possible motivation for the ban, in addition to the religious, ideological fervour.

HM: Right. Now, you talked about the fact that, you know, some supporters of the Taliban benefit financially from the trade. On the other hand, there is, you know, I guess there's also political risk of alienating those farmers. So, how does the Taliban itself balance out its interests here?

VFB: Well, the way to maximize the Taliban interest would not have been to issue the ban. In many ways, the ban is deeply counterproductive. And I would just add here that when I had conversations with various Taliban interlocutors back in 2018, 2019, 2020 and spring of 2021. They consistently brought up that they would issue the ban once they came to power.

HM: You know, the opium trade has thrived for many decades in Afghanistan, despite concerted efforts, expensive efforts by the U.S., among others, to quash it. So, is it even possible to eliminate it?

VFB: Well, the Taliban in 2000 issued the most successful poppy ban or most successful drug plant ban ever in history. And within a year, they brought the poppy cultivation down by 90 per cent. No other country has succeeded in such rapid diminishment from such enormously high levels as cultivation was at the time in 1999. However, that ban was not sustainable. And by the spring of 2001, the Taliban itself was finding out the economic consequences for farmers were so crushing that the Taliban was weakening in its resolve to enforce the ban. I don't think that the ban is sustainable now without enormous repression on the part of the Taliban. And without enormous willingness on the part of the Taliban to just see deep continuing economic commiseration and, frankly, starvation and insecurity of vast segments of the population. So I just don't see how they can sustain it beyond a year or two if there is a ban that's actually enforced. So the prior Afghan governments of Ashraf Ghani and Hamid Karzai had a long history of issuing bans that were really in no way meaningfully enforced. There would be some limited eradication, but that was a massive violation of the ban on cultivation. So unless the Taliban goes that route, issues a ban, but doesn't attempt to enforce, the only way they can maintain it for any prolonged amount of time is to be enormously repressive and have enormous willingness to be indifferent to just catastrophic economic conditions in the country.

HM: Hmmm. It's difficult to think of… of even more suffering by the people of Afghanistan. Ms. Felbab-Brown, thank you very much for sharing your expertise with us.

VFB: I would say my pleasure. But, of course, the situation is grim. But very good talking with you.

HM: Good to talk to you, too. Bye-bye.

VFB: Bye-bye.

CH: Vanda Felbab-Brown is with the Brookings Institution in Washington, DC. She was in České Budějovice, Czech Republic.

[Music: Folk]

Canadian Gymnastics Abuse

CH: The trial against Larry Nassar may be long over. But the judge in that case has more to say. In 2018, Justice Rosemarie Aqualina sentenced the disgraced USA Gymnastics doctor to 175 years in prison for sexual assault. She told him, "I just signed your death warrant." Now, Judge Aqualina has sent a video of support to the 71 Canadian gymnasts calling for an independent, third-party investigation into abusive practices and what they call the ongoing toxic culture of the sport.

[sc]

ROSEMARIE AQUALINA: To all the gymnast athletes in Canada, I want you to know that I hear you. I see you. I support you. I'm listening. I stand with you. I stand aside you in every step of the way. And in support of your brave calls for an independent third-party investigation. Having lived through the experience of listening to over 156 sister-survivors, [deep breath] who endured years of abuse, I can fully understand how difficult your journey has been and continues to be and will be in the future. My message to you is clear: you matter. Your voice matters. Speaking up matters. Every time you speak up, you're not just speaking up for yourself. You are speaking up for all of those who cannot come forward. The more you speak up, the louder you speak, the more who join you. The sport must listen to you. Having presided over countless sexual abuse cases, I know the importance of offering all victims a safe place to tell their story, to be believed, to be heard and for action to then happen. This toxic culture and abusive practices that continue to persist within Canadian gymnastics must end. It must be the safety of athletes over money and medals. True, leaders of Canada's sport will embrace the truth and not be co-conspirators to the toxic, abusive relationship. And they will use their power to protect innocent victims of abuse. Maintaining the rights and integrity of all in sport.

[/sc]

CH: That's Justice Rosemarie Aqualina, who presided over the sexual assault case against former USA Gymnastics doctor Larry Nassar.

[Music: Vocalization]

Oldest Park Ranger Retires

Guests: Betty Reid Soskin, Di'ara Reid

CH: You've just turned 65, and you're somewhere in Florida finishing up a round of golf. And after that: no plans until the next round of golf next week. You're living the retirement dream, right? Well, not if you're Betty Reid Soskin. She added about 35 years to that retirement age. Last week, she finished her last day at the US National Park Service, where she was the oldest park ranger -- at 100 years old. She worked at Rosie the Riveter National Historical Park for over a decade, sharing stories about what it was like being a Black woman during the Second World War. We reached Ms. Reid Soskin and her daughter, Di'ara Reid, in Richmond, California.

HM: Betty, congratulations on your retirement.

BETTY REID SOSKIN: Thank you very much.

HM: President Barack Obama posted a tribute to you and your time at the park. He said --

BRS: I know! [laughing]

HM: It's so exciting! He says, Betty, I hope you realize just how many people appreciate everything you've done, myself included. You sound thrilled?

BRS: Yes.

HM: What is it like to hear that?

BRS: I think it kind of did me in. [laughing] I… I started crying and was unable to stop.

HM: Oh. Now, you turned 100 in the fall.

BRS: Yes.

HM: What has kept you working for so long?

BRS: I didn't start working until I was 85. So that… so that I actually had been working for 15 years. And before that, I was working for four years as a consultant to the National Park Service.

HM: But you have done other things in your life as well, though. You've had a very busy life. It's just that you've only been a park ranger since age 85. Is that right?

BRS: Yes, uh-huh.

HM: How did you become a park ranger?

BRS: I became a park ranger sort of by accident. I was working as a field representative for a member of the California State Assembly. So I was really working for the state of California for the four years prior to my becoming a park ranger. And then, becoming a park ranger became pretty automatic.

HM: Had you dreamt of being a park ranger? Had you ever thought of it before?

BRS: No. No, I hadn't. I hadn't dreamed of being a park ranger.

HM: What did it feel like when you first put on that uniform?

BRS: It felt masterful. I felt as if I could have done anything.

HM: Di'ara, tell me a bit about why your mom is such a powerhouse and what it's like for you?

DI'ARA REID: Well, I think her example or her mantra… mantra for life is that she is always present. She lives in the moment. She doesn't plan. She doesn't look forward to tomorrow. And she doesn't look back to yesterday. She just gets up every morning and sees… lives life to the fullest. And I think that's a great example.

HM: And has she always been like that?

DR: Always.

HM: What has that meant to you?

DR: That you can be unapologetically yourself and do extraordinary, ordinary things.

HM: Now, Betty, you brought your own experience to your work because you were actually working in the Rosie the Riveter Park, and you yourself had wartime experience working through the war. Can you tell us a little bit about what it was of your experience you brought to your work?

BRS: That's hard to answer because, at the time, I was 20 years old. And I really was trying to find my place in the war. I don't think I found it until I was 85. I don't think many of us live long enough to find our way. I think that finding all the people, all the parks that were around me, all the parks that made up the World War Two homefront were what placed me in the centre of that.

HM: You have described having a love/hate relationship with Rosie the Riveter. Tell us why that is?

BRS: Because Rosie was a white woman, and I was a Black woman. I don't think that I ever saw myself as being a part of the white movement. The union that I was involved with was not in the shipyards. It was in the centre of town. So I never saw a ship being built. I never saw anything except for the cards I was finding. So it didn't really see myself as having participated in the war at all.

HM: Did your experience as a park ranger redress that in some way? Were you able by setting it in context for other people to… to express what it was like being a Black woman doing the work you did?

BRS: Yes. I found myself. I found myself, and I found all the people who… who were around me. I found myself in the middle of a great movement that has brought us to where we are today.

HM: Di'ara, tell me what you make of the work your mother was doing through this last 15 years or so?

DR: Well, I think what she really has contributed is to tell everyone so they can be close the story and make everyone feel part of that. So many times that you know, the national treasures are just for specific groups. But I think what she's done is made a movement throughout the whole park system of really addressing everyone's story and making everyone feel included in our history.

HM: Can you kind of give us a sense of… of what you think that has brought to younger Black visitors to the park?

DR: Well, I mean, if you see yourself in the park, you can identify with that. If you don't see yourself, you don't think that the history involved you. So I think it makes a difference if you see images that look like you. Park rangers who look like you. Stories that look like you. That you feel like, actually, this is my history too. And it's an American history. But there's only certain parts that have really been promoted before this.

HM: Betty, it's been an incredible life so far. You've written a book. You've written protest songs during the civil rights movement. You mentioned, of course, President Barack Obama. You introduced him at a tree lighting ceremony. And, of course, what we're celebrating today, the fact you've been the oldest park ranger in the United States. This is like so many lives. It's such a rich life. What can you share of your experience that can kind of help the rest of us to live a richer life?

BRS: Oh, good heavens! I'm not sure if any of us is designed to tell anyone else how to live life. I think that it's the job of each of us to find our way. I think that I did that. I think I did, and I did it very, very well.

HM: It certainly sounds that way. It's been a privilege to speak with both of you. Thank you so much.

BRS: Thank you.

DR: Thank you, too.

HM: All right. Bye-bye.

DR: Bye-bye.

CH: Before her retirement last week, 100-year-old Betty Reid Soskin was the oldest US park ranger. We reached her and her daughter, Di'ara Reid, in Richmond, California.

[Music: Country]

Oldest 10K Sprinter

CH: Canio Polosa wasn't just chasing one Canadian record at Saturday's Springbank Sprint 10K in London, Ontario. He was chasing three. And in the end, the 93-year-old runner's results surprised even him -- not to mention some of his most fervent supporters. Here's what Mr. Polosa and his wife, Lynne Weaver, had to say when he crossed the finish line just one hour and 14 minutes after the race began.

[sc]

LYNNE WEAVER: It was… it was so much better than he expected. I didn't know what to expect, and it's fabulous. It's really exciting.

REBECCA ZANDBERGEN: And tell me… tell me about the records that he was able to… to… to… to get today.

LW: Well, his coach, Sherry Watts, had asked… told him that she wanted to have the course remeasured so that he could get five miles, 8K and 10K records. All new. And he did. So, there was only one… there was an 8K record previously, and he beat that by a lot. I think 15 minutes or something. And the other two records are brand new.

RZ: Wow.

LW: So three in one race. At least it's… you know, that's efficient. [RZ chuckles] You don't have to run so much in order to do all that!

RZ: Yeah! how do you… how do you do it? Tell me more about how you do all of this.

CANIO POLOSA: Um, I just keep working, doing something that I think helps.

RZ: Yeah.

CP: So I don't know. For example, we live on Doon Drive. Doon Drive is 1.2 kilometres.

RZ: Okay.

CP: So, I started doing one Doon Drive. Two Doon Drives. Three Doon Drives. From one point to one point.

RZ: Yeah.

CP: 20 Doon Drives.

RZ: Nice!

CP: Yeah, but it takes time.

RZ: What is the next thing on your list? Do you have any more races?

CP: I don't know. Maybe the next will be 20.

RZ: [laughing] Really?

CP: Yeah.

RZ: And how do you… what do you do to take care of him when he gets home? I mean, how does he recover from all of this?

LW: Um, I'm going to feed him like crazy because he's burned off huge calories. And you can see, he can't afford to burn off too many calories.

RZ: Yeah.

LW: And he'll probably have a power nap. For sure.

RZ: A power nap.

LW: I'm sure he will.

RZ: And does he run again tomorrow? Or there's a break in there?

LW: He might not tomorrow, but he will surely go for a walk. [RZ laugh] But, you know, he's kind of like a puppy. You know, they run like mad and then they can go to sleep, and he's sort of like that.

RZ: [laughing] Lynne says you're going to have a nap.

CP: No, probably not!

RZ: [laughing] Awesome. Well, congratulations.

CP: I'm happy to be alive.

RZ: Yeah, well, we're happy you're doing it. You inspire all of us.

CP: Thank you.

RZ: Take care. Thank you.

[/sc]

CH: Ninety-three-year-old Canio Polosa began running in his 60s. This weekend, he set three new Canadian records in London, Ontario. He and his wife Lynne Weaver spoke with the CBC's Rebecca Zandbergen.

[Music: Electronic]

Part 3: Book Banning, Patagonia Vests

FOA: Magdalene Laundries

CH: The last of Ireland's Magdalene laundries is going to become a memorial -- and not a hotel. The Gloucester Street Laundry in Dublin had been one of the Irish institutions where unwed pregnant women were forced to give up their children and work for the profit of the church. There had been a plan to turn the place into a low-budget hotel. But last week, the Irish government announced that it would make the site a memorial to everyone who was incarcerated and abused in the country's church and state-run institutions. That would include Philomena Lee, the inspiration for the Judy Dench film Philomena. In 1951 Ms. Lee was pregnant and unmarried and sent to give birth in a convent.

[sc]

PHILOMENA LEE: We were always made to feel so guilty because having a baby out of wedlock was considered by our religion as a real, very mortal sin. And we were always made to feel guilty about having babies out of wedlock. It was cast as the most awful thing. Our families, not just me, but most of the girls, our families and friends, everybody ostracised us. So you just didn't. And I went into the home and had Anthony. And I stayed there for three and a half years and looked after him. But we were always made to feel guilty about it all. And the guilt never left me. And actually, there's lots of women who are ringing up now. The daughters are ringing up, saying they found their mothers. And they say, my mother couldn't tell me. There's still lots that haven't been able to tell their families.

CO: Wow!

PL: My age group especially because they're 80 now, and they cannot because the… the horror of it all in those days. And you were honestly really made to feel guilty about it.

CO: Philomena, can you tell us what it was like for you in that convent for those three years with your child?

PL: Oh. Well, beginning of it was… my mother died when I was six. And there was six in the family, three boys and two girls. So dad put me into a convent school in Limerick. So I was six when I went in there. When I came out, I was 18. We learned… we learned the Catholic… all about the Catholic religion and never queer identity. You believed everything you were told, of course. And then, it wasn't long after the convent when I became pregnant. I didn't know the first thing about the facts of life. And my aunt had taken me out to the convent. So, when she realized that I was pregnant, she took me to the doctors and then they got me into this home in Roscrea, in Ireland. So, there I stayed for three and a half years.

CO: And what was that experience like? Can you describe the convent life?

PL: Oh, well, actually, after eight weeks, after you've breastfed your baby, we were in the hospital prior to this, and we were sent over to the main building where all the other girls were. And we were all given different jobs. I mean, you've got to garden, the kitchens and libraries, but I got the laundry for three and a half years. So it was very hard, day in and day out. You finished at 4 o'clock. And then, at 4 o'clock in the evening, you were allowed up for an hour to see your baby and talk to and care for your baby and what have you.

CO: And then Christmas 1955, you say it was a Sunday evening.

PL: Christmas 1955.

CO: Can you remember what it was like watching your son being bundled into the car and taken away?

PL: It was most awful. I didn't know at the time because his adoption was anonymous. The lady that adopted him… it was a doctor and his wife in Missouri. Now, the lady that came to adopt, she came to pick a little girl out. She didn't want a little boy because she already had three boys of her own. So she came, and she picked this little girl out. But every time they came to look at Mary, Anthony was with her. He was always looking after her, you know? And then, when they finally came to take them away one day, the mother came the last time, and she came and gave him a kiss. And she said, I can't leave him here. I just can't leave him there. So she rang her husband in Missouri and he said, oh, bring him along as well. So that's why he went off quickly in the end. I just saw the end of him going off from the car. And this nice nun that was in the convent, she ran me up the stairs, and all I could see was his little face peering out of the back of the window. And that was the last time I ever saw him.

CO: Do you remember that moment clearly? Can you see that image?

PL: Oh, do I! I have never forgotten that moment in my whole life, and I don't suppose I ever will. You know, in my life, I kept the secret, I used to see that little face out the back of the car. You know, it's just… just incredible, really. So sad. You know, I've since shed a few tears over it all, really. But anyway, as I say, he went to a very good home. I have to say that he went to a good home, and he was highly educated and ended up quite a powerful man in the White House, so.

CO: But you didn't know that, did you? You didn't know he'd gone to… you didn't know anything about him.

PL: I never knew any of this.

CO: And you also didn't know that he was looking for you?

PL: No, I didn't. No way. In no way did I know. He actually… they told him that I had abandoned him at two weeks old. Now, I reared him for three and a half years and worked in the laundry day and night, you know what I mean? So I did not abandon him. But they told him when he went to look for me… I think about three times he went over, and they said I had abandoned him at two weeks.

[/sc]

CH: That was Philomena Lee, whose life inspired the movie Philomena, starring Judy Dench. She was speaking to our former host, Carol Off, in 2014. Last week the Irish government announced that, instead of becoming a hotel, the last Irish Laundry would be made into a public memorial.

[Music: Industrial]

Banned Books

Guest: Mandy Peterson

CH: Today is National School Librarian Day in the United States. It's supposed to be a day for celebration and recognition. But some school librarians say they're not feeling the love. Efforts to ban books, led by parents and legislators, are spreading across the U.S. -- where the number of book challenges more than quadrupled between 2020 and 2021. More than 1,600 titles have been challenged -- for addressing issues like race and sexuality. Mandy Peterson is a school librarian who serves as the executive secretary of the Nebraska School Librarians Association. We reached her in Shelby, Nebraska.

HM: Mandy, as we said, this is National School Librarian Day, your seventh as a school librarian. How are you marking the occasion?

MANDY PETERSON: There's a lot of opportunity for advocacy, so what I am trying to do is showcase what modern school libraries do. That we're actually centres for learning and community building and problem-solving.

HM: Your job also has more recent challenges in connection with censorship moves and efforts to ban books that would be normally able to be accessed by children.

MP: Isn't that wild? I did not realize that the intellectual freedom of our students would be challenged so much. What we're seeing a lot now, at least in the United States, is there are coordinated movements against materials, specifically a lot of concerns about what they would consider harmful to minors or explicit. So you know, anything with sexual activity in it, which doesn't seem to include certain things like sexual assault, but voluntary sexual activity. Sometimes we're seeing people who have increased concerns about materials or haven't possibly even read the entire book that they're challenging but have heard that there is certain content within that book that they're not comfortable with their own children reading.

HM: There was a recent article in The Washington Post that described a conflict on several fronts. It says, on the one hand, that there are parents challenging books, which we've heard of, but also that nervous administrators are quietly removing books from shelves before these parents can challenge them before they can create potential problems. Are you seeing that? And how is that landing on the desks of people like you?

MP: I have not experienced that personally. I do want to say that immediately because I love my school district, and they're wildly supportive. However, in my role in a state organization, I do help guide many school librarians through challenges. And in Nebraska, we have seen, that I'm aware of, some administrators are receiving a complaint from a parent within the community and before they go through their district's approved challenge process, just removing the material so that they don't have to go through a process. There was one book in particular, and our state removed that was a picture book. It was called Something Happened in Our Town. It is about a shooting of a police officer's shooting of a citizen. We're seeing a lot of books challenged or removed because they're hard topics to talk to our kids about. And that's what books are designed for, to introduce our kids to difficult topics while they're surrounded by adults who love them and care for them and who can help guide them through.

HM: Well, you would think school administrators would be part of that… that point of view as well. That they would back the idea that school's about learning and not every topic is going to be easy to… to take in. So how does that feel to know that the administrators that are working with these librarians are actually doing this?

MP: Honestly, it doesn't feel great. In our state, school librarians have to be certified. In addition to being certified teachers, we're considered experts in our field. To have someone who does not have that expertise truly be afraid of any sort of conflict or difficulty, and just quietly taking books away that honestly our kids need and our families do need to talk about these things, it's not a great feeling.

HM: Now you yourself had a parent take issue with the book in your library a few years ago that was called Yay! You're Gay! How did that play out in that instance for you?

MP: Actually, it played out very well. I was able, through the training that I've had, to remember let the parent get everything out. So part of that is realizing as a person, as a librarian, this is not about you whatsoever. And you don't have to defend the material. You just have to defend the right of students to read and access material. And part of our conversation was letting them know that I appreciate their involvement in the lives of their students. Fortunately, the way that it worked out, the parent, once the parent was calm, we were able to have a good conversation and the formal challenge never took place.

HM: Politicians, including in Nebraska, are part of this as well. Your state's got a number of pieces of legislation trying to limit what young people can access in different ways. What will happen if those bills are successful?

MP: One of the main concerns regarding the legislation is that it does tackle online databases in particular. And schools really rely on those online databases. It's impossible to keep up with buying books in the non-fiction arena that are current and recent and still be within your school's budget. It would also be something where one of our pieces of legislation suggests that you can personally sue a school librarian if you see something in their collection as obscene or harmful to minors. The problem with that is that the Supreme Court in the United States has already determined through something called the Miller Test what it takes to be considered harmful to minors or obscene when it comes to materials in library. That doesn't necessarily apply to individuals. Opening up school librarians and public librarians to litigation due to materials that others may find objectionable is a really dangerous slope.

HM: So what are you and your fellow librarians doing to fight that? Because it does appear that more and more jurisdictions are taking books off the shelf. How do you fight that?

MP: One thing that we're doing a lot of is keeping in contact with our representative. The Nebraska School Librarians Association does a lot of contacting of legislators and senators and different committees within our state government to break some things down. Because often, what we're finding is that many of our representatives who are proposing bills don't necessarily always realize how schools work. So a lot of what we do is just educating other people on what's already in place.

HM: You sound like someone who loves her job, who loves books, loves learning. Where do you get your strength from when you're seeing this resistance to… to people having free access to knowledge?

MP: It… it can be very disheartening. Where I get a lot of my strength and enthusiasm from is just spending time with my students. Their enthusiasm and their joy is completely unbridled. They're always willing to try something new or crazy if I have an idea. Another thing that I do, any time I get an encouraging email or note, I tend to keep those. I have a little box in my desk drawer because you do get downtrodden sometimes. And to have that undeniable proof that people appreciate you and you are making a difference is something that you need to just keep with you all of the time.

HM: Mandy, it's been very good to talk with you. Thank you very much.

MP: Thank you very much, Helen. It was nice to meet you.

HM: Okay. Bye-bye.

MP: Bye.

CH: Mandy Peterson is a school librarian. We reached her in Shelby, Nebraska.

[Music: Elevator]

Patagonia Vests

Guest: Sumukh Sridhara

CH: "Stop wearing vests. You look like a Republican. You live in San Francisco now... It's time to start acting like it." That's part of the text on a poster, currently adorning telephone poles in San Francisco. And it's calling out a particular sort of vest-wearer. A tech bro, newly moved to the city to make a killing before cashing out and moving on. Now, let's just say, this type is not universally beloved. Key to the caricature is that vest. A Patagonia fleece vest to be exact. A garment which has taken on a totemic significance in the San Francisco Bay Area. To help us understand its symbolism, we reached San Francisco software developer Sumukh Sridhara, in Austin, Texas.

HM: Sumukh, here in Canada, wearing a fleece vest is still primarily associated with being an outdoorsy kind of person, or at least looking like you are. What does a Patagonia vest mean when it's worn in San Francisco?

SUMUKH SRIDHARA: Yeah, it can still mean that you're an outdoorsy person, but the predominant indication is that you are a venture capitalist or finance who lives in San Francisco because you want to enjoy the weather and the outdoors, but also work in finance or technology.

HM: How prevalent is it? I mean, if you're walking around on the streets, do you… do you see people wearing these vests?

SS: Yes, particularly in the financial district in San Francisco. Earlier in 2019, I think I tried to count one time, but I lost track in my commute to work.

HM: Wow. And are they all like similar colours or does it matter? As long as it's this particular vest?

SS: They're predominantly the particular kind of grey Patagonia vest that has picked up.

HM: How long has this been going on?

SS: For multiple years. Since… since 2014, it has… has only accelerated.

HM: And they're not always just printed with Patagonia on the chest, right? Sometimes they're branded?

SS: Yeah, and that's actually a big part of it is to show off which firm you're associated with or which technology company.

HM: Hmm. Now, we don't know who made these posters telling people to take off the vests, but it does seem to speak to kind of a tension in San Francisco. How are these vest guys seen by people outside of the tech and finance world?

SS: It's kind of an imported finance world that never really belonged in San Francisco. They're perceived as Wall Street people who happen to live here, rather than the technologists of Silicon Valley.

HM: So if you're wearing one of these vests, you're seen as kind of an outsider?

SS: Yeah, that sounds right. The funny thing is that if you're wearing a Patagonia jacket, you're probably okay. But the vest specifically signals a specific kind of finance person.

HM: You know, I think some people, especially, you know, here in Canada, might be wondering how this fleece vest got this connotation? Was there a particular early trendsetter?

SS: Yeah, it was a lot of Wall Street. I think there was a specific firm in Wall Street that really embraced the vest and working in the vest because they kept their trading floor really air conditioned for peak performance or something like that. And then other… other firms and Wall Street started to pick it up. And then eventually, it imparted its way over into venture capital here in the Silicon Valley.

HM: It's also kind of breezy, sometimes in San Francisco, right? The weather's pretty changeable. It sounds like it could be very practical.

SS: Yes. Yes. I mean, you always wear a jacket, at the very least, whenever you're going outside in San Francisco. So it's certainly practical, but I personally always carry a jacket with me. I'm not so sure about the vest.

HM: Well, that's what I was going to ask you. Do you… do you ever wear them? Are you ever tempted to wear them because you are a software engineer?

SS: Nope! Yeah, no, I don't. I don't wear any vests. I do have Patagonia jackets, which are very comfortable. But specifically, no vest, because I'm not interested in signalling the same kind of finance attitude of other people.

HM: It's almost like you're being defiant. You just refuse to go with the flow.

SS: Yes. A little bit. And the other people who work in these environments, when you see everyone else who's wearing them, you… you want to fit in a little bit. And that's… that's why it picks up as much as it does in specific cultures.

HM: So you started this VC starter pack. It was a joke, as I understand it. It included a vest, a Patagonia vest. What else did you have in there?

SS: Yeah, it included a couple of books that venture capitalists read, including one by Peter Thiel. Similar to vests, there is this particular kind of shoe that was also very popular with venture capitalists called Allbirds. It included the shoes, including the vest, included the books, along with a subscription to some newsletters that venture capitalists read.

HM: Did anyone actually buy your starter pack?

SS: Yeah, there were multiple orders. I think at least three. [HM chuckles] And in the end, I ended up getting all the items and actually shipping them out to people.

HM: What did you charge?

SS: I believe I charged $500 at the time. And the… the raw cost of all the items was something like $250.

HM: So you made a little bit of a profit.

SS: Yeah, exactly. And I took the profits and just donated them to a charity that increases diversity in venture capital.

HM: Hmmm. Now, more recently, you have made a Miami version of the VC starter pack. I'm guessing that vest would be pretty hot for Florida temperatures.

SS: Yup.

HM: What's in that pack?

SS: Yeah. Well, one of the things in there is as a consulting visit with a fashion expert, so that you can be more appropriately dressed, along with some printed T-shirts, as well as an art guide to help you associate with the art scene in Miami.

HM: I have to ask how much of this has to do with people who are longtime residents of a place like San Francisco. And they've been seeing the housing market and other inflationary things going up and probably blaming the tech folks?

SS: Yeah, I think that's a lot of it. Of… and it's not just that. It's also a value shift of a traditionally liberal place bringing in conservative views of finance. It naturally conflicts. You have both a combination, like, economic forces, but also social and political ones coming together at the same time.

HM: So these posters telling people to take off the vest, it sounds like they reflect some real tensions.

SS: I think those tensions have always been there in Silicon Valley. It's just interesting to see them boil over into a specific piece of clothing.

HM: Has this campaign had any success? Have people started taking the vests off?

SS: I don't… I don't think the campaign itself has had success. The thing that has had far more success is Patagonia stopped branding their own jacket so that you can no longer ask them to embroider your company logo on them unless you're a public benefit corporation.

HM: Do you know why the company stopped doing that?

SS: I think it just didn't align with their values. If you are a company that is trying to make the world a better place and you are printing and making money off of… and co-associating your brand with hedge funds and other companies that are less associated with doing social good, you're diluting your own brand.

HM: Sumukh, thank you very much. Good to talk to you.

SS: Likewise. Bye.

HM: Bye-bye.

CH: That was San Francisco software developer Sumukh Sridhara. We reached him in Austin, Texas.

[Music: Spanish guitar]

Croatian-Canadian Soccer Fan

CH: The competition is stiff and Michael Sostaric is split. The Croatian-Canadian soccer fan was thrilled when Canada qualified for the FIFA World Cup. It's the first time the team has qualified to play in the international tournament since 1986. But now that Canada is scheduled to face-off against Croatia in the opening round-robin, Mr. Sostaric is facing a dilemma.

[sc]

MICHAEL SOSTARIC: I don't know. I'm very torn. You know, I wish the best for… for both countries. It is international tournament football, so anything can happen. But definitely, like you said, it's going to be a conflict for… for some Croatian-Canadians during that game.

ISMAILA ALFA: But how big a part of your life was the Croatian soccer team growing up in Canada?

MS: So, the Croatian international team, I know for a lot of the Croatian community here, that's kind of been our main team that we've been watching. So… so, it's been pretty, pretty influential, you know?

IA: Um-hmm.

MS: And it's something that's really brought our community together, so.

IA: And how do your… how did you feel when… when Canada won their entrance to the World Cup last month?

MS: It was kind of… you know, what it was.. it was just excitement because you're realizing, you know what? Now they have a chance to go. They have a chance to prove themselves because they are coming in as underdogs. I'm just excited for them. I hope they do well. I hope they make it out of the group stage as well as Croatia. That's… that's my hope. And, well, hopefully, there's more World Cups for them to come.

IA: You don't sound too stressed about this. It kind of seems to me you're going to take the other view that it's a win-win when they play each other.

MS: Honestly, I kind of feel like I have to. I have to, you know? [both laughing] It is going to be kind of like… I don't know, like if someone scores, do I celebrate the goal? [IA laughs] Am I going to be upset? I don't know. It's… I've never been in that situation, so I'm just… I'm excited to see where it goes.

IA: There will be a battle on the field and a battle within you during that match.

[/sc]

CH: Metro Morning host Ismaila Alfa speaking with Croatian-Canadian soccer fan Michael Sostaric about who he plans to cheer for during the FIFA World Cup in November.

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April 04, 2022 Episode Transcript

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