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The AIH Transcript For March 29, 2022

Hosts: Gillian Findlay and Chris Howden

GILLIAN FINDLAY: Hello, I'm Gillian Findlay.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden, this is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

CH: They aim to please. But so far, the federal government has failed to hit Canada's climate targets -- and after years of government shortfall, we'll ask the minister of Natural Resources why we should trust him.

GF: Making a concession stand. As Russian and Ukrainian representatives discuss the possibility of peace, a political analyst in Kyiv tells us she's afraid her government might be giving up too much.

CH: Exit, pursued by nightmares. A father who escaped the occupied Ukrainian city of Kherson with his family says he can't leave the memories of their flight behind.

GF: Erring on the safe side. The staff at a Fredericton theatre discovered an old safe, embedded in concrete, during renovations -- but their efforts to unearth its contents proved to be more comedy than drama.

CH: And...the fast and the furriest. A Nebraska state senator publicly addresses the phenomenon of litter boxes in schools for students who think they're cats -- only to discover, to his surprise and no one else's, that it was not true.

CH: As It Happens, the Tuesday edition. Radio that figures he should find another pet project.

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Part 1: Climate Emissions: Sophia Mathur, Climate Emissions: Jonathan Wilkinson, Ukraine/Russia Talks

Climate Emissions: Sophia Mathur

Guest: Sophia Mathur

CH: Justin Trudeau is promising cuts -- lots of them. Today, the federal government released a plan to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 40 per cent by 2030. The nine-billion-dollar plan will require the oil and gas industry to cut its emissions significantly. And it promises a boost in the production of electric cars and carbon capture technologies. The Prime Minister said now is the time for bolder action.

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JUSTIN TRUDEAU: I know some people will say a war is no time for climate action, for looking to clean solutions to build a competitive economy. Well, the same people said the pandemic was no time for climate action. We didn't let them stop us then either. Responsible leadership demanded that we tackle the crisis at hand and build for the future. So to those people, I say this. This is no time for excuses. It is the time for even bolder climate action because it is always the right time to face a crisis head-on. It is always the right time to have workers' backs. And it is always the right time to build a good future for all Canadians.

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CH: Sophia Mathur is a 14-year-old climate activist from Sudbury, Ontario. She was the first student outside Europe to join Greta Thunberg's Fridays for Future movement. We reached her in Sudbury.

GF: Sophia, we just heard from the prime minister, who said that his latest climate plan is part of building a good future for all Canadians. So as a young Canadian, how do you react when you hear that?

SOPHIA MATHUR: Yeah, so I've been working in climate action ever since I was young. And I think hearing this from our prime minister saying that, you know, it's important that we act on this and that it's serious is great, and it's good that they're… they're doing this and listening to the experts. But I do personally think that their plans are a little weak, but I'm still glad that they're doing this and acknowledging it, especially in the times that we're in with COVID and the war going on in Ukraine.

GF: When you say weak, what do you mean?

SM: Well, their goals are 40 to 45 per cent below 2005 levels, which is great, but there's no accounting until 2030. And recently, we've seen an IPCC reports that this is getting serious, and we need to take action now and we need to take ambitious plans. So I'm saying that, yes, we're glad that they're taking action, but we're hoping that they continue to do more and, you know, acknowledge the fact that we can't have weak responses to the climate crisis.

GF: So they need to be more ambitious then?

SM: Yes, we're hoping maybe 60 per cent below 2005 levels. But again, I'm still thankful that Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is acknowledging this because, especially during the pandemic, I think a lot of people have forgotten the serious crisis that we're in. And have forgotten, you know, there are still people out there fighting for a safe climate and fighting for a better future.

GF: Yeah. Well, today's plan once again lays out emission targets, as you've said. You're young, but I think you've been around long enough to know how often we have set targets in this country and failed to deliver on them. So do you have any hope that… or any confidence, I guess, that this time it's going to be different?

SM: I try to keep hope hopeful within my activism. So yes, I do hope that this does work out, but I also hope that, while Trudeau and while the government is saying that they're going to take these plans, that the people and the citizens of Canada are holding them accountable and making sure that they're following up with that. And if they don't, then we will stand up against them and say, hey, you made this promise. You said you were going to do something. You said it mattered to you. So why aren't you doing anything to follow up with that? But I am hoping that they do follow up with this because I think we need climate action now, and we've been fighting for this for a long time here in Canada, yeah.

GF: You have been fighting for a long time, even though you're only 14. You've been to COP26. You've marched with Greta Thunberg. You've orchestrated school strikes. You're even suing the Ontario government for… for its climate targets. Do you feel like people in power are listening to you now, and in a way, perhaps they weren't before?

SM: Yeah, I mean, there are politicians out there that make false promises, and we've seen that here in Canada. But also, within my activism, I've had the chance to meet with politicians like MPs of Sudbury and politicians that have been really supportive… supportive of our work and supportive of climate action. So we're hoping that more politicians are like that. And that people go out and talk to their politicians and, you know, make sure that they're holding the government accountable as well.

GF: Do you… do you think that's a problem? Do you think people I don't know have either given up, or they feel they don't have influence or they don't know what to do? What do you see?

SM: Yeah, I mean, it could feel a little, like, hopeless, especially as a youth, someone who can't vote, so can't even control the people in power. But, you know, I started lobbying when I was seven, and even though I wasn't exactly talking, like, about policies and stuff like that, I was telling them that I cared about climate change and that it was something that was important to me. And I think that's important because the politicians work for us; they work for the citizens. So it's important that we speak up and that we tell them what we want because we want a safe future for everyone.

GF: Yeah, but it's hard, isn't it? I mean, you started, you say when you were seven, did you ever just want to be a kid and just leave this to the adults to sort out?

SM: Yeah. I mean, part of me wishes I could. But we've seen so far that kids have had a big impact on the movement, especially since it's going to impact us a lot more. But I've also met some great people along the movement, and I've been able to engage within my city. And, you know, I feel like I've done something so that I can tell future generations that I was a part of the climate movement that got climate action and saved the future, hopefully. [both chuckle]

GF: Speaking of speaking to politicians, we're about to speak to Jonathan Wilkinson, the minister of natural resources. What would your message be to him?

SM: We want to see action from politicians. And we're glad that, you know, what the Canadian government is doing. But we do hope that you take into consideration the next generations that are coming. And do take this as seriously as possible because it's not something that's all about politics and about getting voted in for the next election. It's about our future, and it's about lives of people who can't speak up and animals that can't speak up for their future.

GF: All right. Well, thank you, Sophia. And we will… we will talk to the minister next, and you'll be able to hear what he says.

SM: Thank you so much, Gillian.

GF: Bye-bye.

GF: Bye.

CH: Sophia Mathur is a youth climate activist. She was in Sudbury, Ontario.

[Cold in to next story]

Climate Emissions: Jonathan Wilkinson

Guest: Jonathan Wilkinson

CH: Jonathan Wilkinson is Canada's federal minister of natural resources. And we reached him in Vancouver.

GF: Minister Wilkinson, the prime minister, today described this emission plan as both ambitious and achievable, but this is now the 10th plan in the last 20 years proposed by various governments where none of the targets were achieved. Why should Canadians have any faith that this time it's going to be different?

JONATHAN WILKINSON: Well, I think that's an important question, and it's a question that I think I answered a number of times when I was the minister of environment and introduced the plan on which this plan builds. And I think why Canadians can believe that we will actually be able to achieve the targets is that we've provided incredible amount of detail on the specific initiatives by sector that actually drive the emissions reductions. You will see year-on-year declines in absolute emissions in this country every year between now and 2030. We've already broken the arc of the trajectory the previous government was on, and I think you're going to see significant reductions in the in the very near term.

GF: Your government is promising to spend $60 billion to reduce greenhouse gas emissions… or you have since 2016. There have been some estimates saying that to go forward. You have to be spending that much annually to get to the… the real goal of net zero by 2050. The nine billion dollars you announced today is… is that really going to make a difference?

JW: Well, I think it is going to make a difference. It goes on top of close to $100 billion that we've committed since 2015, and it focuses on driving forward some of the initiatives in specific sectors that we had already committed to. So, for example, there's more money in there to build out electric vehicle refuelling infrastructure, and there's more money in there to continue the incentives to purchase zero-emission vehicles. But in the long-term, we do need more capital. That's not all government money. We need to actually incent the private sector to do the same. And we're starting to see that in a number of areas.

GF: Let's talk about oil and gas sector for a moment. You're already being criticized for essentially letting them off the hook. Their targets have been set at 30 per cent. That's less than the 40 per cent overall figure, and it's much less than some of the other sectors. What do you say to that criticism?

JW: Well, to that criticism, I say that people actually need to look at the facts. This plan represents the first time in Canadian history where we will see significant absolute emissions declines in the oil and gas space. And when folks say that that is less than other sectors, it's not true. The second-largest single-emitting sector in this country is transportation. And because of the nature of the changes that are required, it's far lower than what we're asking for from oil and gas. So what we did was we actually looked at this in a pragmatic way, which is where can we get the reductions and over what period of time that will enable us to meet our 2030 targets and set us on a pathway to achieving that goal by 2050?

GF: Right, 26 per cent of total emissions in this country come from the oil and gas sector. So why not ask them to do more?

JW: Well, because I mean, a thoughtful and pragmatic approach to actually doing emissions reductions is to do the bottom up. To actually figure out where those emissions come from, over what period of time, what are the technologies that are actually required. And what we're saying is we're going to reduce the oil and gas emissions in partnership with the sector in the same way that we're working with the other sectors by 42 per cent relative to 2019. That's an enormous change for a sector that has actually been increasing. And it is more than we are asking for... for transportation because of the nature of the transportation sector. It is more than we are asking for from the agriculture sector.

GF: We're talking about reducing emissions at a time when Europe and the world, as we know, is looking to Canada for more oil and gas. Just last week, you yourself said Canada could increase oil and gas exports by… by up to 300,000 barrels a day to… to help improve global energy security. How can we both be increasing production while at the same time reducing emissions?

JW: Well, I think at the end of your question, you focused on… on emissions, and that's exactly what we need to be focused on is what is the atmosphere? Its CO2 emissions in the atmosphere.

GF: Yes, but when you produce more, you create more emissions. How can you have both.

JW: Well, that's not necessarily true. If you're displacing Russian oil and gas in Europe, there are zero incremental combustion emissions associated with… with that use. So, of course, you need to be focused on the production emissions that exist within this country, and those are captured within the context of Canada's climate plan. I mean, look, we need to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time. I don't think any reasonable Canadian would say to us that at a time where Europeans are worried about being able to actually stock their grocery stores because they need diesel for their trucks or they need gas to heat their homes, that we should simply walk away and throw our hands in the air, we need to be able to do this in a manner that is consistent with our climate goals while helping our European friends at a time of great need.

GF: Notably, this plan does not include a cap on emissions, something your government has promised. Why no cap, and when will we see one?

JW: So the form of the cap is not in the plan, although the sectoral projections do include thoughts around what the cap could achieve. And the reason why the form of the cap is not in there is we promised the sector that we would work with them to ensure that we are actually doing this in a thoughtful way that allows us to reduce emissions while ensuring that we're continuing to support a strong economy. And so we will be bringing forward a cap, just as we promised in the election.

GF: As a last question, we just heard from a young climate activist, and we asked her what question she would put to you. And she said I want my government to listen to experts. I don't want them to be thinking about politics. She wants you to be ambitious, be bolder and do more. What do you say to future generations? Will they look back on this and say you did enough?

JW: Well, first of all, the thing I would say is I'm glad that this young person is actually pushing for greater ambition. That's what young people should be doing and holding us to account. And certainly, my youngest daughter, who is 19 at university, does that every day. But what I would say is we have listened to the experts, and if you actually followed the last election campaign, every expert that opined on the climate plans that were produced said that our plan was the most comprehensive, was extremely ambitious. And today, we're delivering on that commitment. It is an ambitious, bold climate plan, and it is something we promised to the international community. And I'm very proud of this plan.

GF: Do you think it's going to be good enough for your daughter?

JW: Well, I hope it's going to be good enough for my daughter. I certainly, as somebody who spent almost 20 years running clean technology companies, I would say that it meets the test for me, and I think it meets the test for Minister Guilbeault, and I'll have to see if it meets the test for my daughter.

GF: All right, Minister Wilkinson, thank you for your time.

JW: All right, thank you very much.

GF: Bye-bye.

JW: Bye-bye.

CH: Jonathan Wilkinson is Canada's federal minister of natural resources. He was in Vancouver.

[Music: Instrumental]

Ukraine/Russia Talks

Guest: Maria Zolkina

CH: It's hard to know whether there was any real progress at the ceasefire talks between Russia and Ukraine today. In Istanbul, the Russians promised to ease their assault on Kyiv as a gesture to build trust. Ukrainian observers warn that easing may not take place. And if it does, it could just offer a chance for the Russian military to regroup or re-redirect their attack somewhere else. But Maria Zolkina's issue isn't just with the Russian stance. Ms. Zolkina is a Kyiv-based political analyst -- and she's warned that her own government's negotiators may have already gone too far. We reached Maria Zolkina in Warsaw, Poland.

GF: Ms. Zolkina, what is worrying you about the news coming out of Istanbul today?

MARIA ZOLKINA: The main risk is actually proposals which were presented by Ukrainian delegation because they were a kind of shock, not only for international audience but for Ukrainian expert community as well. The idea of a so-called security guarantees from some countries, the least of which is not clear yet, is the main risk for us because it's clear that Ukraine, the proposal of Ukrainian leadership, political leadership, not military one, is to refuse from NATO membership on the one hand and to replace it, NATO membership, with the idea of signing some new treaty with some kind of security guarantees, at the same time, fixing neutrality or non-bloc status for Ukrainian state.

GF: Well, just tell me what is your understanding of what they mean when they talk about security guarantees and from which countries?

MZ: So mainly, they want to include the idea that in case of new invasion of Ukraine, in case of new kind of aggression against Ukraine, the guarantor states should start consultations and hold them during three days after invasion. In case these consultations are not successful, then these countries decide how exactly how in particular they can help Ukraine otherwise. Like, with weapons or even maybe with some kind of closing the sky, some mechanism about that. In fact, it means nothing new in comparison to what Ukraine had as of February 24, even without any neutrality fixed in Ukrainian legislation, without any official declaration of security guarantees from international partners. It means that Ukraine will have to adopt its neutrality or non-bloc status. But at the same time, will receive actually no new security guarantees.

GF: You called it today latent capitulation in your Twitter feed.

MZ: Exactly, exactly. Because this is a political declaration that Ukraine will receive security guarantees from the most powerful states on the international arena. But if you will look what actually is offered, we are offered to have no right for military bases on Ukrainian territory. No right for military training and military exchange with any other partner if one of the guarantors will not allow Ukraine to conduct those military trainers. And we all understand that Russia, which is, by the way, included in the list of potential guarantors, will always veto any kind of Ukraine's military training with any Western partner or with NATO in general. Ukraine will be not allowed to enter any defence or military alliance in the future, so this is the veto for the sovereignty of Ukraine for unclear, undefined periods in the future. And that and the main reason why I call this proposal the latest capitulation is that the main idea of Russia was and still is not to prevent Ukraine from joining NATO, for instance, but to prevent Ukraine from being part of any collective security alliances and from being able to defend itself with our own capacities. I mean, to weaken Ukrainian army and to stop weapons supply from our Western partners like it is now.

GF: But given that NATO membership seems to be off the table, President Zelensky himself has acknowledged that it is not on the table. Why is this not at least something for Ukraine to… to hang on to and to… to maybe end this fighting?

MZ: Exactly because the idea of Ukraine is to end this war or this stage of the war with serious level of certainty. The new wave of the aggression will not happen. And the price of a new wave of aggression on the side of Russia will be too high for Russia, and Russia will simply not made the decision about new kind of invasion in the future, at least in the near future. But this proposal, which means that Ukraine will take on responsibility for being neutral state. And at the same time, will be left with any opportunities for defence cooperation with Western partners for increasing capacities and skills of Ukrainian army with no opportunities to receive any serious weapons, with no opportunities to enter or to start any new collective security alliances with any one of our partners. So, it means that we are expected to be out of any bloc, have no real guarantees, rely just on the goodwill of countries which will sign this kind of treaty, and we will just have to wait in case Russia will invade at some point later again.

GF: President Zelensky is promising to put the terms of any settlement to a vote. Do you think the Ukrainian people share your concerns?

MZ: I think that President Zelensky actually doesn't understand how far Ukrainian people who… who have been demonstrating extremely high resistance, who are far away from those proposals which were presented today, the current resilience is, you know, too high to accept that, you know, too high price for the peace.

GF: All right. We'll leave it there, and we'll watch with interest. Thank you so much for your time today.

MZ: Thank you. Goodbye.

CH: Maria Zolkina is a political analyst at the Democratic Initiatives Foundation in Kyiv, Ukraine. We reached her in Warsaw, Poland.

[Music: Piano]

Nebraska Senator On Furries

CH: Kids today. Nebraska State Senator Bruce Bostelman just doesn't understand them. What's with all their shenanigans? Their tomfoolery? All their monkey business and horseplay? Not to mention their cat business and dogplay. Well, actually, you know, we should mention those last two. Because Senator Bostelman had learned some incredible allegations about what was taking place in schools in his state. Truly absurd, inconceivable, wildly implausible allegations. Honestly, they didn't bear thinking about. So he didn't think about them. He just stood up on the floor of the Nebraska Senate yesterday, and talked about them instead.

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BRUCE BOSTELMAN: And I'm a little shocked, I guess, is what I would put it. It's called something called furries. If you don't know what furries are, it’s where schoolchildren dress up as animals, cats or dogs, during the school day. They meow and they bark, and they interact with their school, with their teachers and that, in this fashion. And now schools are wanting to put litter boxes in the schools for these children to use. How is this sanitary? I even heard from one person who recently said that… that a… that a student identified as a cat, and wanted a litter box. And the school didn't provide the litter box, so the student went ahead a defecated on the floor. Really? Really?

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CH: Really! Except, to Senator Bruce Bostelman's surprise, not really. Look, you can't fault his research. This story has been going around on Facebook, which is a terrific source of reliable news. But not long after reporter Jon Kipper of KMTV in Omaha tweeted out a video of his remarks, Senator Bostelman decided it was the perfect time to see whether what he'd said hours before was true. And it wasn't in any way. So he apologized. But in his defence, he told the Associated Press, "It was just something I felt that if this really was happening, we needed to address it and address it quickly." Well, great point. You should always move quickly to address something that might not be happening. Especially today, when there's no way of knowing what's really happening in schools, unless you ask. I mean, honestly: what if today's kids grow up with no critical thinking skills?

[Music: Jazz]

Part 2: Kherson Escape, Fredericton Safe Opened

Kherson Escape

Guest: Zainish Hussain

CH: For a month, Zainish Hussain and his family were living in fear. They lived in Kherson, Ukraine -- one of the first cities to be completely occupied by Russian forces. When we spoke to him on March 2nd, he told us what life was like in the city.

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ZAINISH HUSSAIN: The first time I saw this footage of… of a building getting shelled, like apartments and a school, that was a line where I realized that I am not safe. I thought that could be my building. That could be my family inside. On top of that, like, the frustration and the stress that we are going through. I haven't slept in peace for a week. Like, I take these short sleeves and, like, usually end up with nightmares or some sounds from the outside. And for how long we can do this? This is the tough question. Like, being in an apartment, how long can I lock them? So you never know that how long this thing will continue?

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CH: That was Zainish Hussain, speaking to us from Kherson, Ukraine, on March 2nd. Well, we have some good news. Hussain and his family have managed to escape Russian-occupied Kherson and have fled the country. We reached him today in Iași, Romania.

GF: Hussain, it is so wonderful that you are safe today. What's it like to listen to yourself describing what you were thinking and feeling those weeks ago?

ZH: Even listening to that man speaking, I can hear the desperation. I feel like that was not myself. Just when I look back at last one month, I hope it never happens to anyone. The pressure of the depression and this insecurity that I had, I mean, there were a lot of events after that interview that I was held at gunpoint at one occasion with my little daughter. I was questioned twice by Russian authorities in the administration building just because I was speaking to the Western media. Ah, my house was searched from corner-to-corner, every single thing. And it just, I mean, these are the memories that will not give me some peaceful sleep. I wish I can just forget it.

GF: Tell me about the moment you crossed the border and realized that it was over.

ZH: Leaving that state was a huge relief. Like, the air, I mean, it smelled different. And… but then there were still uncertainties because I was still in the war zone, crossed that. On the other side of the border, it was just disbelief. I literally pinched myself just to be sure that I'm not dreaming. I couldn't believe it that I just made it to the other side. It was beyond belief, yeah.

GF: You mentioned your… your daughter. And you did speak to us about her last time. She's… she's quite small, and one of the things I remember you saying was just how difficult the decision is. Do you put her in danger by trying to escape? Tell us about how you made the decision, ultimately, that you had to go?

ZH: One of the key factor was my daughter's birthday. She turned three on the day I left the Russian-occupied territory. And I remember a day before, I was just trying to find a slice of cake and a candle, and I could not find that slice of cake in the whole city. And this was an extremely depressing time. And it was just this, you know, like a factor that says, okay, this is enough. I'm going to take that risk. And it worked. It worked. Thank God it worked, yeah.

GF: How risky was the trip out?

ZH: Oh, real uncertain. I mean, I was searched very barely at first stage. I had, like, a suitcase with me. I was asked to take off my clothes, just right on… next to the main highway. And very humiliating. There was a moment where I felt that I might not just… I probably made a mistake. And then, on each step, I mean, there were checkpoints in the middle of nowhere. There were like three or four soldiers standing, believe me, it is completely unpopulated, deserted region. They can just shoot you, and no one will even know about it. And there were reports, I mean, you hear these horror stories like people getting shot in those regions, people getting looted in those regions. Travelling with a wife and young daughter, it's… every step was dangerous.

GF: I understand there were bribes involved to get out.

ZH: I paid a lot of money, and I will try to refrain from saying that figure because the same contact that… that helped me to get out, he was very much connected with the Russian troops there. They were on his payroll, under the table money. He was supplying them with alcohol, with cigarettes, with tobacco. And being with that person the entire trip, it gave me some confidence that maybe I can do… I can use this person for a lot of other people. And 21 people have been out through the same contact. It turned out to be a trustworthy source, at least. Expensive. Very expensive. But then life has no price, right?

GF: Yeah. And is that how people are managing to get out now? Is that what it takes to… to leave Kherson?

ZH: I will just say that if you don't have the right connection, you cannot leave. This is first thing. And even if you have the right connection, it'll cost you a couple of thousand dollars for every individual who wants to leave that place.

GF: And what was it like? What was going through your mind as you were leaving, beyond just wanting to be safe? I mean, this is your home that you were leaving.

ZH: I had this heavy heart that I might want to come back to this place again. It will never be the same again. That I know. And my wife, obviously, she… she grew up in those streets, and she feels extremely different. She was far more depressed than me. You can see that on her face. The look she had leaving that place, looking at the Russian soldiers going through your paperwork. It's just like someone died, right?

GF: Yeah.

ZH: That sort of feeling.

GF: What is next for you and your family?

ZH: Portugal. I think one of the reason is that it's furthest from the Russian… from Russia. [chuckle] I mean, you look at the map, it's just on the opposite side. I… I give a thought to move to the Scandinavian side, and then I… psychologically, I feel that things can go wrong from that side, too. So I just wanted to go to the opposite side. One factor, apart from many other, yeah.

GF: You mentioned in the clip we played at the beginning about how difficult it was for you to sleep. Is it any easier now?

ZH: No. Believe me, not. I… the first day I was in Moldova, I mean, the night before, someone was just moving the furniture in the next room, and both me and my wife, we just woke up like similar expressions, like there are tanks outside or there's an airstrike. I think it will take months to recover. Honestly, I still have nightmares. I see people dying when I'm sleeping because I've been thinking… all thinking about this for a month, being locked in an apartment. So silence, just imagine like a pin drop silence at middle of night. And suddenly, there are silence all over the city that would be an airstrike, and then the plane just flying very low above you. And the worst part is that you cannot see anything. You just hope that it's not your building they're going to hit. I just don't have the right words. I hope it just stops, whatever's happening there. I mean, there are children there who will grow up with these memories. I mean, it's not something that will just finish in few days or weeks. Even the war might finish, but the psychological effect, I think it, will stay in a generation.

GF: I wish you the best of luck, you and your family. Thank you so much for sharing your story with us.

ZH: Thank you for having me here. Thanks.

GF: Bye-bye.

ZH: Bye.

CH: We reached Zainish Hussain in Iași, Romania.

[Music: World]

EDM Ukrainian Refugees

CH: It was an emotional moment at the Edmonton airport last night as a crowd of people gathered to welcome 62 Ukrainian refugees who fled the war. Andrii Nabutovskyi was there to welcome his sister-in-law and her two children.

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SISTER-IN-LAW: [speaking Ukrainian]

ANDRII NABUTOVSKYI: She's basically saying that she's very thankful that… yeah, yeah, that she's very emotional, and she's very thankful for Ukrainian community that was organized so well. And I was surprised that everything was kind of step-by-step, you know? And yeah, it was very good, very good, organized. They were in Ukraine. She worked as accountant. You know, they were just regular kids going to school every day, you know, every… like ordinary Ukrainian family. And you know, on that horrible day, war started, and they spent a lot of time in the basement because you never know when artillery charge will come and might end your life right there, right? So she drove to Poland and then took a flight to Canada. They were scared. You know, I'm not even going to ask her. They were scared. You know, that's all… that's all I can say.

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CH: Andrii Nabutovskyi speaking at the Edmonton airport, just moments after welcoming his Ukrainian sister-in-law and her two young children to Canada. It was also an emotional moment for Ivan Lypovyk -- but somewhat bittersweet. Mr. Lypovyk was hoping to welcome 13 of his friends and family members last night. But only five were able to get their visas sorted out in time to make it on the flight.

[sc]

IVAN LYPOVYK: So because it's not a refugee program, all those people are considered workers, visitors, students, so they have to buy their own plane tickets. So just as an example, for those two families to come here, it would cost around $12,000-$13,000. Many times they hear like, oh, white Ukrainians get this special treatment. And honestly, I'm quite upset because Ukrainians didn't get any special treatment. There is no funding in place to support them. They are coming here as the workers, as taxpayers. So basically, Canada benefiting from these people who are actually leaving their families, leaving their husbands to fight for Ukraine, fight for freedom. They come in here with the kids. They have to find the job here. Imagine mom with three kids when the day-care is $1,000 a month. How she's going to find the job to sustain her? There is no funding in support for them to help them in the first few months to stand on their own feet. They're getting zero. So there is no special treatment for Ukrainians. The words and the actual actions, that's two different things, unfortunately. There is a process in place. It's only political will. There is electronic travel authorization Ukrainian community was asking for. Like, for every other European nation, when they get fingerprints and all the biometric data at the port of entry when they come into Canada, which would be much faster and much more efficient. It's only a matter of political will to let those people in here.

[/sc]

CH: Ivan Lypovyk speaking last night at the Edmonton airport. Mr. Lypovyk joined other host families and friends at the airport to welcome a group of 62 Ukrainian refugees to Canada.

[Music: Ambient]

Fredericton Safe Opened

Guest: Matt Carter

CH: You're renovating a building when suddenly you discover something long-hidden, and long-forgotten, lurking beneath the layers. There's a thrill as you regard this mysterious treasure -- like an emissary from the past, speaking to you from across the decades. You wonder what secrets it holds -- and whether the secrets will be really cool. And lucrative. That's what happened yesterday at Theatre New Brunswick in Fredericton -- which is undergoing renovations. Matt Carter is the theatre's communications director.

GF: So, Matt, when your contract to remove that layer in your lobby's floor yesterday, what did you see?

MATT CARTER: Well, we saw the top of a combination lock, like a safe, looking up through a hole in the floor. And none of us had no idea that it was ever there.

GF: [chuckling] So what did you do?

MC: Well, we freaked out momentarily. [laughing] And we thought, what could this be? You know, when you find a… when you find a hidden safe, your mind goes wild as to what might be inside. So… and I think our contractor was just as excited. He didn't let on. He kind of played it as business as usual, like it's just another safe in another floor. But… but we were… you know, we were… we were bumping off the walls, so.

GF: I bet imaginations were going crazy. But first of all, how did the safe get there? Do you know?

MC: We don't know. The building that Theatre New Brunswick is in was built in the early 80s, I think. And it was built for commercial purposes originally. And so, it was several units with several different businesses in it. I know at one point there was a dog groomer. There may have been a business that chrome… that did chroming kind of work, whatever that is. There was a fencing club in there for a while. It was a lot of different things over the years. And so, I'm not exactly sure who or what was in the section where… where we found the safe, but now I'm certainly interested to find out.

GF: So, you sat there, and you looked at the safe, and your… your mind started to… to wonder. What did you hope that you were going to find in there?

MA: Oh, I don't know. I have… you know, obviously you want a treasure map or something cool. [both laugh] But… but, yeah, in a 1980s building, you know the best you could hope for, maybe like a key to something or… or some coins or a letter. Like, who knows? Who knows? I've never owned a safe, so who knows what people put in them? I don't know. You know, but when we did pull it out and… and cut it open, the first thing we saw, it was full of water, [GF chuckles] like the dankest water you've ever seen. And so we kicked it over and drained the water out.

GF: Uh-huh?

MC: But there was another compartment inside that! So, it was like the excitement just kept building.

GF: All right. Time for the reveal. [MC laughs] What was… what was inside?

MC: A lot of rust and gunk. And four quarters and a button.

GF: [laughs] Four quarters and a button?

MC: Yeah. And we were… I was live streaming this on our… on the Theatre New Brunswick Instagram. [GF chuckles] Because, you know, I thought it would be funny. And yeah, so when everyone was like, awwweee! Four quarters, eh? And then everybody wanted to know the dates of the quarters. Like, everybody was really trying to find some… some little glow in this… in this… you know, in this treasure hunt. And the dates, they're very black quarters. They're very, very stained. But I know one of them is from 1975.

GF: Yeah, so… so not exactly rare quarters?

MC: Not exactly rare at all!

GF: And don't forget the button.

MC: No, the button.

GF: Was the button rare, maybe?

MC: Well, it was like a shiny chrome button that you might find on a pair of work overalls. [both laughs] Nothing too… whoever put this stuff in there must've had a laugh. And so, that got me thinking, like, what can we fill this hole back up with? We should get another safe and fill it with mysteries and bury it for the next tenants to find in 40 years. [both laugh]

GF: I guess it was a bit of a letdown, was it?

MC: It was. But I'll tell you, the adventure of the three-hour tension was fantastic. It was… you know, what a way to start your week, finding a safe in the floor, come on! [both laugh] You can't write that stuff.

GF: Well, you can't. And you are a theatre company, [MC], and you know, you do trade in the stories. So… so what are you going to do with this one?

MC: I don't know. Maybe there's a fundraiser in there somewhere. [GF chuckles] I should have… I don't know. You should have, could have, would have. It's so many things, but it gave us such a funny story. And I think when our renovations for our lobby are complete, we're going to try to present those four quarters, mount them in some way with a short description of the story, just… just so it lives on because it was so much fun for us for three hours. [both laugh]

GF: All right. Don't forget the button, though, eh?

MC: No, exactly. The button… the button's got to be there.

GF: All right, Matt. Well, thanks for… [chuckling] thanks for telling us the story.

MC: Oh, you're very welcome.

GF: Take care. Bye-bye.

MC: Bye-bye.

CH: Matt Carter is the communications director at Theatre New Brunswick. And we reached him in Fredericton.

[Music: Elevator]

Youngest Opera Singer

CH: Victory Brinker is aptly named. The 10-year-old Pennsylvanian's brief singing career was already a triumph. And now she's got a world record under her child-sized belt as well. Guinness issued the honour yesterday, naming Ms. Brinker the world's youngest opera singer. She gave the performance that won her the title back in 2019, when she sang in eight installations of the Pittsburgh Public Theatre's Lights and Legends show. The virtuoso told Guinness World Records that she's been singing since age two and singing opera since she was six. And as if that weren't enough, she says, "I love the challenge of the difficult arrangements, the technique required to sing, all the runs, and the different languages all the arias are written in." At the time of her record-breaking performance, Victory Brinker was a mere seven years, 314-days old. And she went onto make history again soon after that -- as the first performer on the hit show America's Got Talent to receive a Golden Buzzer from all four judges. From that 2021 performance, here's Victory Brinker, the world's youngest opera singer, with "Juliet's Waltz."

[Music: “Juliet’s Waltz” by Victory Brinker]

CH: Ten-year-old Victory Brinker was named the world's youngest opera singer by Guinness World Records yesterday. She performed “Juliet's Waltz” on America's Got Talent last year.

Part 3: Shark On Roof, Barry White Of Birds, AI Bridge Player Wins

Shark On Roof

Guest: Magnus Hanson-Heine

CH: If you were walking down a particular street in Oxfordshire, England, you'd see a typical British neighbourhood. Brown, brick houses. Some trees and shrubs. Charming, if ordinary. Unless you looked up. At which point, you would see something extraordinary on top of Magnus Hanson-Heine's house: a huge sculpture of a shark, appearing to plunge through the roof. Obviously, it's a major landmark in that area. So much so that the local council recently voted to add it to a heritage registry. Seems like great news -- but Mr. Hanson-Heine isn't celebrating. He's a quantum chemist whose dad created the shark -- along with a sculptor. We reached him in Oxford, England.

GF: Mr. Hanson-Heine, it's not everyone who gets to have a shark on their roof. Why wouldn't you want to have it recognized as a heritage site?

MAGNUS HANSON-HEINE: Well, that's a good question. It really comes down to the meaning of the artwork, which was a few things. But one of the main strands was opposition to the use of the planning laws and government restrictions to censor what kind of art people were and also weren't allowed to see. And really, to make the point that with public art, in particular, that shouldn't come down to the decision of a small number of people, be that in the council or the wider government.

GF: Right. It was… it was billed as an act of defiance. But before we talk about that, can you just describe… because we are talking on the radio. Describe for people what this looks like?

MHH: Well, the Headington Shark House is a 25-foot fibreglass and steel sculpture of a shark, which I suppose nominally represents a bomb crashing through the roof of a house in an otherwise perfectly ordinary and somewhat leafy suburb of Oxfordshire in England.

GF: And it's quite distinctive, right? Nobody would miss it.

MHH: I can't imagine you do. So it's… it's quite a surreal sight to behold.

GF: You've lived in this house. Is it a surreal thing to live in a house with a shark jutting out the roof?

MHH: Well, oddly enough, it was my dad who did it a year before I was born, so I grew up with it as just part of the family, as it were. So, it's not surreal in that sense, but to live there is quite special, and you do get a lot of visitors snapping pictures of the house.

GF: I'm sure you do. So tell us why your dad built it then?

MHH: So essentially, he first bought the house in 1986, and he was moving in. And you have this sort of sense when you're buying your first house and moving into it of safety and future planning. And on the first night he was there, he was sort of woken up by the sound of what turned out to be fighter jets or bombers going overhead to bomb Tripoli in Libya. And he woke up and read the paper the next day and saw these other people's quote/unquote safe houses destroyed by warfare. So that was one side of it, explicitly an anti-war, anti-bombing protest. The shark is quite striking and represents a sort of slightly surealized bomb in that respect. But the other side of it was that he'd had this sort of running battle with the city planners before where he'd tried to put up some can-can legs on the cinema here and bill it the Moulin Rouge [GF chuckles] across the street. And they had tried to claim this as advertising you can possibly do it. And his sculptor friend John Buckley ultimately did the shark. And they were sort of a dynamic duo in this process. He had changed the name of the cinema to Not the Moulin Rouge, to try and claim it couldn't be advertising, so they had this kind of running battle. And so, I suppose this was, in a sense, round two. The suggestion was, well, you haven't let me do this before. This is a form of censorship of artwork, and we're going to do this specifically without planning permission and fight, and fight in the courts and make that case.

GF: And it was a fight that went on for many years, right? City council was... was adamant. The Guardian has called the story one of the most notable triumphs of British eccentricity over petty bureaucracy. So given that was the city's position initially, what changed to make the council now want to celebrate the shark instead of tear it down?

MHH: Well, I'm not sure they are celebrating the shark. I think not quite explicitly ignoring the meaning and sentiment and doing something that's actually quite destructive to that side of the artwork, be that through ignorance, wilful or otherwise. But in terms of the narrative of preservation in quotes, which, again, I don't think they're really doing. There's no threat to the physical structure either mind. Is it comes down to two things. The first, which is the original council, has been replaced, so none of those original councillors are still there and the new councillors have come along. And over the intervening 30-odd years, essentially, it's gone from, let's say, its disruptive origins to something that everyone broadly loves in the area. So there's a sense of just enjoyment of the shark and appreciating it as a quirky tourist attraction and also as a surreal artwork which is part of the purpose that people get to come and see this… something that you're walking down the street and you… you see suddenly this massive shark through the roof of the house. It's designed to make you look twice and sort of think again. But people that engage with it on that level and don't necessarily know the history are perhaps missing that sort of anti-establishment side of it, which I think the council has done in this case.

GF: Just maybe explain that a bit more. I mean, what… what… how does establishing it as a heritage site work against what the original intent was?

MHH: Well, the original intent, as I mentioned, was specifically or partly around not having bureaucrats decide for the public. And in this case, before, when they hated it, and you couldn't possibly have it, there was a fight to be had there. And they were trying to use the planning apparatus, and the laws and the sort of threat implied behind that to forcibly remove it. And now, they happen to have changed their mind and love it, and they're trying to use exactly that same apparatus to force it to remain.

GF: How has the council responded to your dissatisfaction about all of this?

MHH: Well, they've ignored me completely. [GF chuckles] Right away throughout. This is just so with power. They have no incentive to do anything other than pretend that it's all fine and I don't exist, which is exactly what's happening.

GF: All right. So are you content to leave it there, or is there another chapter yet to come?

MHH: I don't know. I'm going to think about that clearly. Certainly, if they try and apply for a higher grade of listing or a national listing, I suspect I will have more than something to say about that.

GF: But in the meantime, it's an Airbnb, I understand?

MHH: Yeah, so thanks to a large extent, in the 80s, my dad always used to joke that the property is a bit like the TARDIS from Doctor Who. It's much bigger on the inside, so I've been renting it out for a few years now. It's obviously a very special place that people can come and stay if they like that… that side of the artwork. You can never be closer to the Headington Shark than when you're actually in the property.

GF: [laughing] All right. Well, thank you very much for telling us about it today. Good luck with your tussle with the… the City Council.

MHH: Well, thank you very much.

GF: Take care. Bye-bye.

MHH: Bye now.

CH: Magnus Hanson-Heine's father, Bill Heine, was behind the sculpture of a shark crashing into a roof in Oxfordshire. Mr. Hanson-Heine is in Oxford. And you can find some pictures of that shark on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient]

Claudette Bradshaw Obit

CH: Claudette Bradshaw was many things. For a decade, Ms. Bradshaw served as a Liberal MP, representing her constituents in New Brunswick. She served in the governments of Jean Chretien and Paul Martin, and serving as Labour Minister. She was also an advocate for the homeless, the founder of Moncton's Headstart Early Family Intervention Center, and a recipient of the Order of Moncton. But her son Nick will remember her for more than her achievements. Claudette Bradshaw died this weekend. She was 72. And yesterday, Nick Bradshaw spoke to our colleagues at CBC New Brunswick.

[sc]

NICK BRADSHAW: I think for her, it was just that immediate connection. It didn't matter if you were a person in a business suit or a person on the street, everybody got a hug from her. We were looking through photos, you know, for the slideshow that they do for the ceremony that we're going to do at the end of the week. And there was a beautiful one where she was visiting in Brazil, and there was a street kid. She just automatically, you know, went and hugged this kid. And it was just a thing that was natural to her, you know. Sheeven broke protocol and hugged the Queen of England, sort of when she came off the plane. The Queen was visiting on her last visit. Mum was the one who was the federal minister that had to greet her when she came to New Brunswick. And when she came off the plane on the tarmac, they told her because they knew she was a hugger. The RCMP actually warned and said, look, you're not allowed to address her unless she talks to you, and you're not supposed to touch her. And Mum sort of put her arm around her back to lead her off the plane. And I was telling dad because we were away, and I said, look, she's going to… she's going to give that woman a hug, and they're going to taser her in front of all of Moncton, you know. And that's going to be on the 6:00 news. But she was pretty good about it, and she got a beautiful letter from the Queen. Actually, her mother had just recently passed at the time, and the letter was very private, saying how she enjoyed the visit and, you know, getting to talk to mom about, you know, her work with kids and that. So, she was just a very affable person who loved people. It was… that was beautiful to see, like she would just go out in the community and she'd go to Tim Hortons and sit down, and you would have all these people would be like hey, Claudette. And she just listened to what they had to say. And then you could see her in Ottawa, you know, with people in business suits. And it was the same thing, they just… hey, Claudette, and then they'd just catch her up on what was, you know, going on in the day. So, I think I'm going to miss that sort of… that sort of a humbleness, you know, to her about that. It didn't matter who you were, what stage of life. It was just she treated you to the same across the board. And I think that's something I'm going to miss.

[/sc]

CH: Nick Bradshaw is one of former MP Claudette Bradshaw's sons. He was speaking with CBC's Melissa Friedman.

[Music: Ambient]

Barry White Of Birds

Guest: Dave Rogers

[sc]

[Sound: A deep and resonant humm]

CH: If you had to guess what that sound was, you might say it was an upstairs neighbour practicing the oboe. Or a recording from a space probe, which picked up the sound of an alien lifeform -- practicing the oboe. But more and more people who live near wetlands in the U.K. would recognize it as the sound of a bittern -- a bird that the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds calls Britain's loudest. And according to the English charity, 228 bitterns were counted in the U.K. in 2021 -- which is "another record-breaking year" for a bird that's bouncing back. Dave Rogers is a senior site manager at Lakenheath Fen, a nature reserve in Suffolk. We reached him in Downham Market, England.

GF: Dave, I understand you were up very early this morning to count birds. Did you hear any bitterns?

DAVE ROGERS: Yes. So I think we're fairly confident there we're at least seven and possibly nine male bitterns booming.

GF: And is that what you expected?

DR: Last year, we had 11, so obviously, we'd like to be up around 11, and it's a kind of symbolic total in a way because bitterns declined in the 1990s. And in 1997, there were only 11 males booming in the whole country. So to have 11 at Lakenheath is quite a big deal because RSPB created the site from scratch. We… we took some farmland, and we rewetted the soil because the fens used to be a vast wetland, and most of that has been drained over the last 400 years. So there's tiny fragments left. So the idea was to create new habitat for bitterns, and that's worked. So in 25 years, we've gone from… from no bitterns to as many as there were in 1997, the low point. So yes, a nice story.

GF: Yeah, a very nice story. What's it like being out there early in the morning on your nature reserve?

DR: It can be wonderful. Today was a bit grey and dreary. It was nice and still, so it was easy to hear the birds. Last Thursday, I was out early, and I had this wonderful sunrise. You know, a huge orange sun came up over the horizon and just a gentle mist over the… over the… over the reed beds. And when it's like that, it's… it's fantastic. You know, the reserves waking up, birds are calling, marking out their territories, you know, saying, I'm here to tell the ladies [GF chuckles] and because this is generally the gentlemen that are calling. So yeah, it can be… it can be really magical.

GF: Okay, well, let's listen to those gentlemen calling to the ladies again for a moment here.

[sc]

[Sound: I hear the oboe now!]

[/sc]

GF: It's definitely a unique sound. But is it really Britain's loudest bird?

DR: That's what… that's what people say, yes. I mean, we've got a couple of loud birds that call our reserve home, but bitterns are… bitterns are certainly… you know, you can hear them. On a nice still morning, you can hear them a couple of kilometres away. So, yeah, their voice certainly carries.

GF: And what do they look like?

DR: I guess you do have gray heron in North America. So they're part of the heron family. It's that familiar shape, but a bittern is very camouflaged. They live in reed beds, so they're… they're browns and yellows, and they're very kind of streaked and striped. They're very… they're very well camouflaged. So, they're… they're perfect for hiding in that vertical buff-coloured stems of the reed. They're basically a heron.

GF: And how do they actually make that kind of foghorny call?

DR: It's in their throat. They have these… males develop these incredible throat muscles, and I think they take a great big breath of air in. And then, you know, they're kind of pulsing their throat and producing this noise. So, I mean, not… not all males get into good enough condition to produce a boom. And bittern people talk about full-boomers and grunters. And grunters are kind of not quite in tip-top condition. So for the females, they're probably selecting their mates on the basis of the call. So if you're kind of like the Barry White of the bittern world, [GF chuckles] you're likely to get more ladies than if you're, say, a more Michael Jackson-type… type character.

GF: [chuckling] And if they camouflage so well, how do you go about counting them?

DR: So… so for the… for the males, so I would say they're polygamous. So a male will stand around the bed and will mate with as many females as he can, and the females have to do all the work. They build the nest; they incubate the eggs, they rear the chicks all on their own. So in terms of survey, we're surveying the males by positioning staff and volunteers around the reserve with a map and with radios. And they're listening for that, for this incredible call. They're trying to work out where they are in the reed bed, marking that on a map. They're marking down the timing of when bitterns call. Their often radioing with the nearest people to them to see who… who's hearing the same bird. And then we have the job of looking through the maps and working out you know, how many birds we've got based on the number of calls that we've heard. It's an interesting logistical exercise. The females we do in a slightly different way. Again, we're strategically placing people around the reserve. The females don't make a lot of noise, but in terms of working out how many nests we have, we're looking for… for birds flying to and from the nesting site with food because obviously the female has to do all the work. So she's got to go off and find fish for the youngsters and then bring it back to the nest.

GF: So the fact that 228 bitterns were… male bitterns were identified in 2021. How significant is that?

DR: I mean, it's a huge change to go from 11 to, you know, what's that, like, 20 times the low point? It's a real conservation success story. So it demonstrates that if you… if you recognise there's as a problem, you do some... some scientific research, and then you apply the findings from that research and some money and some effort you can… you can transform the prospects of a species. And bitterns are kind of like… they're like a poster child for... for the reed bed habitat, which is quite a rare habitat in the U.K. You know, so you… you manage reed beds better, you create new reed beds like we've done at Lakenheath. And it benefits bitterns, but also benefits a whole suite of other species. You know, some marsh harriers, cranes, a range of kind of culinary reed bed species. So all of those have benefited from, particularly from the creation work that we've done, you know, at sites like Lakenheath.

GF: Well, as you say, it's a happy story for a change. So thank you. Thanks, Dave, for telling us about it today.

DR: My pleasure.

GF: Okay, bye-bye.

DR: Cheers. Thank you. Bye.

CH: Dave Rogers is a site manager with the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds. He was in Downham Market, England.

[Music: Poppy beat]

Ontario Childcare Deal

CH: For months, Ontario was alone -- the only province or territory that hadn't reached a 10-dollar-a-day daycare deal with the federal government. But that changed yesterday when Premier Doug Ford and Prime Minister Justin Trudeau formally signed a deal. Ontario says it's achieved what no other province has, pointing to an agreement with more flexibility, as well as securing a sixth year of funding. In an an interview with the CBC today, Canada's Minister of Families, Children and Social Development -- Karina Gould -- was asked if Ontario had reached a better deal than other jurisdictions.

[sc]

KARINA GOULD: You know, Ontario signed the agreement that was on the table last July. There's really not much difference. The only big thing is that, yes, you know, we signed it before the end of this fiscal year, which was really important. But with just four days left in the fiscal year, they will be able to reallocate that over a billion dollars because they wouldn't be able to spend it otherwise. But you know, there's… there's nothing really different in this agreement than there is in the agreement with all other provinces and territories.

ALAN NEAL: We were talking yesterday on the program about the challenge of recruiting and retaining staff, and the comparison was made to what dog groomers get paid. This deal has a… has a wage floor of $18 an hour. The director of one of the biggest daycare providers in the city and Reflect Children's Services, said that rate won't be nearly enough to recruit more staff. The wages in Ottawa are starting over $25 an hour. Why not offer a more competitive starting wage?

KG: Look, we can't create spaces without early childhood educators. Like we don't have spaces without the ECEs and the childcare workforce. Wages in the childcare sector are within provincial jurisdiction, so we can't dictate it at the federal level. But what we have said to each province and territory is that this is integral to being able to achieve the agreement. Ontario's agreement is the first step in this province in terms of increasing the wages that ECEs are paid and having, you know, an increase every year for the next five years. But, you know, even the premier acknowledged yesterday that they need to do better, certainly at the federal level. And I know child care advocates across the province and across the country are going to be advocating for more because ECEs are the heart of the system.

AN: But can you clarify then, if… if it's a matter that the feds don't set the rate as you're saying there, but can you… could they not be giving them more money for the province to play with in order to offer those $25 wages?

KG: Well, each province and territory has, you know, made different decisions about how they're going to recruit and retain the workforce, and those are the decisions of the province and territory. What we have done is said here is your allocation to each province and territory, and they come back with the plan in terms of how they're going to distribute that money. In the case of Ontario, it's over $10 billion. And so, we do have those benchmarks within the federal agreement. Ontario has met all of them. That doesn't mean they couldn't do more. You know, for example, in New Brunswick, New Brunswick has put in $50 million of their own dollars specifically to increase wages. And you know, we've seen that in other jurisdictions. And, you know, we obviously encourage the provinces and territories to, you know, put some of their own money in as well. We don't require it. But, you know, there is more that they could do, and we would absolutely welcome that.

[/sc]

CH: Karina Gould -- the federal minister of families, children and social development, speaking with the CBC's Alan Neal today.

[Music: Jazz]

AI Bridge Player Wins

Guest: Jean-Baptiste Fantun

CH: Bridge is a notoriously complicated game. It's a workout for both sides of the brain that relies not only on logic and memory, but also on deeply human skills like communication and deception. Well, last week, at a tournament in Paris, a player named NooK made it Bridge look easy. Over two days, NooK vanquished its human competitors, all champions of the game. And I specify "human competitors" because NooK is not human -- it's an artificial intelligence. Jean-Baptiste Fantun is the CEO of NukkAI, which created the technology. And we reached him in Paris.

GF: Mr. Fantun, how did these bridge world champions react when the artificial intelligence you helped create beat them at their own game.

JEAN-BAPTISTE FANTUN: At the beginning, they were at the beginning of the challenge. They arrived, and they were very confident because they thought that, well, no machine until now had been able to even… to approach a good level. Not to mention a champion level. So they were confident. And after two, I would say after one or two sets of 10 deals. They really began to… to… to worry we are a little bit. And then they understood that they were having a hard time. So I would say that in the middle of the challenge, they were a bit disappointed, sad and discouraged. But at the end, they were happy. It may seem a little puzzling, but they were happy because they said, oh, you've achieved something great, and we'll be part of that, and it will help us improve our practice as champions. And so, many of… several of them asked us to… to provide NooK deals so that they could so that they could practice at home.

GF: So they could study from the AI? [chuckle]

JBF: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly.

GF: AI has triumphed against humans in other games like Go and Chess. But until now, Bridge has always seemed a step too far. What's changed?

JBF: Bridge is much more difficult than other games… or at least it's different because it… it has many characteristics. For example, it's hidden information. In Bridge, you see… one player see his or her own cards, but has to guess and make decisions with imperfect information, has to guess the other players cards. So that's something that makes Bridge very close to what the real situation in real life, I would say. Because, for example, you never have all the data available about all the information in real life, so it makes it a very difficult game for the computer.

GF: So how did you program your NooK, your AI robot, to… to read your opponent's behaviours?

JBF: Yeah, it's a very, very interesting question because we tried several methods. Of course, at the beginning, we didn't know how to… to tackle this, the very, very tough problem. And at the beginning, we tried, of course, among the methods we tried… we tried the data… what we call the data-driven methods. That's the one that helped solve the game of Go, for example. But they were not helpful on the game of Bridge because of this element of hidden information. So, in the end, we… we… we came up with a solution. It's called it's based on Monte Carlo simulations, and it's also… we have some small neural networks that… that help mimic the opponent's behaviour.

GF: So what… what then, is the significance of this? How do you see this kind of artificial intelligence being applied in the future?

JBF: This is what we call… If we… if we flash back a little bit, this is what we call next-generation AI. Because state-of-the-art, data-driven AI is hitting a wall. That is well known of explainability of human compatibility and human control. So what we have developed is very important because there are methods that are explainable. We can show why the bots made such and such a decision. When it made a brilliant play, for example, we are able to show everybody, the Bridge community, what was in the bot's mind, if you excuse my expression. So that's very important because that… that means that first, we have a transfer of intelligence from the bot to humans. Very important. And secondly, we… we… it builds trust between the machine and the human. Because the human this way can understand why the machine makes this or that decision. So it's very important in all areas. We believe it will have a huge impact in all the areas where the human must remain in control for responsibility or ethical reasons. So I would mention areas where critical decisions are made, such as, for example, defence, cybersecurity, healthcare. All these areas where you cannot have, you cannot leave the machine in control.

GF: Are there games left that computers can't yet win? Where humans can still triumph?

JBF: Yes. There are still games. Bridge was the last, I would say, big game, very well-known game. But again, we didn't solve the whole game of Bridge. We solved a part of Bridge. So even in Bridge, we still have other things to be solved.

GF: Right.

JBF: So we still have a roadmap in front of us.

GF: Right. And I think what you're referring to is that the tournament was not… that your AI won was not a complete game of Bridge because it didn't involve the bidding component of the game, right?

JBF: Exactly. It's not the bidding and not the collaboration, too. Because in the defence, you have… you collaborate with your partner. So you… you pass information to your partner. And this is a very interesting aspect of the game that we haven't tackled yet. We are tackling it. And that's the next step, I would say.

GF: And you anticipate you'll be able to do that?

JBF: Yeah. Yeah, well, well, we are advanced. [both chuckle]

GF: All right, Mr. Fantun, thanks so much for telling us about it today.

JBF: Thank you.

GF: Take care. Bye-bye.

JBF: Bye. Bye-bye.

CH: Jean-Baptiste Fantun is the CEO of artificial intelligence company NukkAI. We reached him in Paris, France.

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March 29, 2022 Episode Transcript

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