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The AIH Transcript For March 16, 2022

[hosts]Gillian Findlay, Chris Howden[/hosts]

GILLIAN FINDLAY: Hello, I'm Gillian Findlay.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden, this is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

GF: Theatre of War. Officials in the Ukrainian city of Mariupol say Russian forces have bombed a theatre that was harbouring civilians. The city's deputy mayor tells us more than a thousand people may have been inside.

CH: Finally, she'll be held by the right people. An Iranian-British charity worker who was held in Iran for six years has been released at last -- and her sister-in-law says her family can't wait to be one again.

GF: A little more conversation. Some Canadian generals say NATO should reconsider its opposition to a no-fly zone in Ukraine -- but our guest today says that would be a move the West couldn't take back.

CH: A little less action. Amid reports that Russia and Ukraine may have sketched out the beginnings of a deal, a former deputy secretary general of NATO sketches out her opinion of the prospects for peace.

GF: Just a matter of time. After the U.S. Senate passes a bill to make daylight saving time permanent, we'll pay a visit to a B.C. community that hasn't sprung forward or fallen back in over a century.

CH: And… veg issue. A New Zealand man is doing some serious soil searching -- after digging up what he thought was the world's biggest potato, only to have his hopes squashed by the news that it's a giant squash.

GF: As It Happens, the Wednesday edition. Radio that knows you can have too much of a gourd thing.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Mariupol Under Siege, No-Fly Zone: Andrew Leslie, U.S. Daylight Saving Time Permanent

Mariupol Under Siege

Guest: Serhiy Orlov

CH: In an article about the desperate situation in the Ukrainian city of Mariupol today, two Associated Press journalists wrote: "Death is everywhere." The city has been besieged by Russian forces. The reporters describe children being killed, bodies in the streets, and residents growing increasingly desperate for food and water. Local officials say thousands have been killed there since the start of the invasion. And today, citing Ukraine's defence ministry, Reuters reported that a theatre where civilians were sheltering had been bombed. Moscow denies the attack. Serhiy Orlov is the deputy mayor of Mariupol. We spoke with him one week ago. And today, we reached him again at a location that he did not wish to divulge.

GF: Serhiy, when… when we spoke to you last week, you said you couldn't imagine such things happening in the 21st century. How much worse are things in your city today?

SERHIY ORLOV: I don't really want to say on this question because each day we thought that, yeah, the previous day was the cruellest, the most awful. But each day, unfortunately, gives us new, awful things.

GF: What have you seen today?

SO: We received information that I cannot even imagine how it's possible. So today, we had two awful cases. One of them that our people in private car was shelled by Russian [speaking Ukrainian] So we have a lot of cars, and it's just families. It's the parents, children, adults. And they were on the way to Zaporizhzhia, but they were shelled with artillery. And two cars were destroyed. And we know about five victims. One of them is a child. He's in surgery now, his operation. So… and three hours ago, we received information that Central Drama Theater was destroyed by airstrikes, by a bomb. And it's awful. I can’t… I do not have words for the situation because more than 1,000 citizens were there. I don't know how many victims do we have, but they told that there is no dramatic theatre. There is no dramatic theatre at the moment.

GF: And were those people sheltering in the theatre?

SO: Some of them were in shelter, but the most part of them were in the building and might be dead.

GF: Wow.

SO: I don't know the number of victims, but… and it's women with child, but we cannot reach them because the street battles and continuous shelling. So, safety personnel cannot reach them and even to see what… what is going on… on the place.

GF: We have heard that people have been told just to leave bodies in the streets. Do you have a sense of the number of people who've died?

SO: It's unclear. In fact, we do not count. It's only our estimation. So three days before, we had 2,573 killed person. And we should understand that it’s just bodies that we collect on the street. We do not have opportunity to collect killed people in their flats, and… and it was three days before. I don't know how many victims, how many civilians are killed in Mariupol by bombing and airstrikes.

GF: When we spoke to you last week, you talked about mass graves. And we have now seen photographs of… of people being buried in mass graves. Is that continuing in Mariupol?

SO: Yes, it’s continuing. And we had some cemetery in the centre of the city, and it was closed for 50 years because it was so full with graves. I mean, old graves. But we do not have any possibility, and we started to make mass graves there. But it's full of graves. And we start to bury people in central garden.

GF: And your own family, Serhiy, you said that you had not been able to speak to them for eight days last week. Have you… have you been in touch?

SO: No. Same situation.

GF: So you don't know what's happened?

SO: No. I don't know, are the alive or not? And last information about dramatic theatre, my heart is frozen. I do not have emotion at the moment. We're told all over the world that Putin is inside Ukraine and kills them with air strikes, with air bombs. And our president says that we don't have weapons, and we see the results.

GF: Yesterday, your President Zelensky spoke to the Canadian parliament. Today, he spoke with the Congress in the United States. He made the appeal for more help, for air cover, for all of the things that you and I spoke about last… last week.

SO: Yeah, I think he told very great words in his speech, in both speeches. So we totally agree and confirm we are ready to defeat our city. We are ready to win this war. But unfortunately, we don't have weapon, especially anti-missile, ant-aircraft weapon. How can we fight without weapons?

GF: Serhiy, I have to ask you as well, you know, you are a deputy mayor. You were a leader of this city. Obviously, you are going through everything else that other citizens are. But you also, I think, are expected to lead your people to do something for your people. And I'm wondering what that responsibility is like for you.

SO: You should understand that there is a war and most of the action is from our military, from the Ukrainian Army, and they are very brave, and it's an honour to be near them. But as a city council, we do our best to satisfy somehow the basic… basic needs of our citizens, to provide some water, to provide some humanitarian help, to provide some food, shelters and to to prepare humanitarian goods to help in the recreation. And that's our… our mission, our target, and we try to do it.

GF: How much longer can you hold out for?

SO: I don't know. Our army will stand up to the last bullet; I am absolutely sure. But people are really dying without water and food.

GF: And how are you trying to get water and food to people?

SO: It's not a lot of options we have. So food is not possible to transfer to this city in any way. Water, we still have the possibility to get in… in natural sources and to provide somehow in several points of the city.

GF: [deep breath] I… it is so heartbreaking to hear you. And yet, you sound so strong. Where does your strength come from?

SO: [chuckling] I don't know how. From this situation needs to be strengthened and to be strong, so we have no choice. Either we die.

GF: Please keep in touch with us.

SO: Yeah, thank you.

GF: And please be safe.

SO: Yeah, thank you. Bye.

GF: Bye-bye.

CH: That was Serhiy Orlov, the deputy mayor of Mariupol, Ukraine. And you can find more on this story on our webpage at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Sombre guitar]

No-Fly Zone: Andrew Leslie

Guest: Andrew Leslie

CH: Today, Volodymyr Zelensky took his pitch for a NATO no-fly zone to the U.S. Congress. Once again, the Ukrainian president appeared via video link, as he did yesterday before the House of Commons in Ottawa. And, once again, he appealed to the assembled lawmakers to give his citizens some cover from the Russian bombs and missiles that have been battering them from the sky. So far, Estonia is the only NATO member to back a no-fly zone. But the pressure will continue as NATO leaders prepare for a meeting next week. Andrew Leslie is a former top Canadian general and a former Liberal MP. We reached him in Ottawa.

GF: General Leslie, again today, we listened as Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky made an impassioned appeal to impose a no-fly zone over his country. What do you think?

GENERAL ANDREW LESLIE: Well, I had the privilege of being in the House of Commons yesterday when he made the same impassioned plea. First and foremost, he's an… I mean, he's an extraordinary war leader, and the people of Ukraine are fighting the good fight with tenacity and passion. But it boils down to NATO's not ready to go to war right now. At the time of crisis, while the 200,000 Russian troops were building up along the Ukraine border, NATO had not deployed its ground forces or its air forces or its air defence forces. And so if we agree, and I think in our hearts we all agree with him, but if we should impose an air no-fly zone on the Russians, Putin will object. His planes will shoot down our planes. Our planes will shoot down more of his. His air defence systems will shoot down lots of ours, and we'll bomb them. And that's a war. That's World War III

GF: Well, we're not… we're not… a war, you say, we're not prepared to fight.

GAL: No, not yet.

GF: Why are we not prepared? Why --

GAL: Ah! Excellent question, Gillian. Because, and forgive me if there's a slight edge to my voice, once again, people have forgotten that there's bears out there that are dangerous. And they've cashed in a peace dividend, and they haven't invested in deterrents. Look, Putin attacked… well, he's a sociopath, but he attacked because he thought he could win. And the reason why he thought he could win is that the West had stripped its defences dramatically over the last 15 to 20 years, including Canada, especially Canada. And the NATO alliance structure didn't respond in time, despite the obvious warning signs that something big was building. And here we are, where the poor Ukraine people are essentially carrying the entirety of this load on their shoulders.

GF: How does that change?

GAL: Well, probably the same way as it did last time, which was in the late-1930s. And that's the scale of which we're possibly facing. We all pray and hope it doesn't come to that. But we have thousands of tanks, hundreds of thousands of Russian soldiers stampeding across Ukraine, slaughtering innocent civilians with no guarantee they're going to stop, and even if they do stop somewhere in Ukraine, we'll need sufficient forces on the ground, at sea and in the air to deter or possibly take action against Putin, and whoever else may care to join him in terms of making sure we can shut this down, so there's not a next time. So we invest. We invest quickly. We buy capability quickly. We get our troops moving quickly. None of which I see happening in Canada.

GF: But I mean, the scenario you're laying out, General, is that… that really then, in the absence of being able to do that quickly, and you say it's not happening, there's nothing we can do. Are we really that impotent at this moment?

GAL: Well, it's a calculated gamble. I don't have access to the three key decision-makers. There's only three of them. And that's the president of the United States, prime minister of the United Kingdom and the president of France because they have nuclear power. Will Putin use nuclear or chemical weapons against the Ukraine people in retaliation for us trying to impose a no-fly zone? That's the question.

GF: That's the fear, isn't it?

GAL: And I can't give you an answer.

GF: That's the fear.

GAL: Yeah, that's the fear. And don't… don't forget, we're dealing with a guy, Putin, a sociopath, who's actually a really bad decision-maker when it comes to military skills. He launched an attack when the rainy season was starting in the Ukraine. Just about any military scholar will tell you, don't do that because your vehicles will get bogged down even if they're big tanks, especially if they're big tanks. And he's miscalculated the unity that would be thrust on NATO to bring all the countries together in a common cause. He miscalculated the exemplary leadership of the Ukraine. He miscalculated the passion and spirit of the Ukraine soldiers and people. And he overestimated grossly the military components of his generals and of his soldiers. But they still have 200,000. So it's grim.

GF: Yesterday, we heard from former Canadian General Lewis MacKenzie, who said he'd actually changed his mind about no-fly zones and now thinks that NATO does have to stand up to Putin. And said that he thinks that Putin is bluffing, that he wouldn't invoke the nuclear option and that, therefore, NATO does have sufficient strength to take him on.

GAL: Well, [chuckle] that's his opinion. I understand that. What happens if he's wrong? Is it a risk that is so clear cut in terms of its probability of one way or the other that the key decision-makers can make that… that decision without a significant chance of a nuclear pulse, as it's called. So a whole bunch of nuclear weapons are delivered at targets at the same time.

GF: NATO's leaders are meeting on Monday in Europe. What… what would you like to see come out of that meeting?

GAL: I'd like to see the transfer of more air defence systems from the West. I'd like to see more guided anti-tank systems. I'd like to see a whole bunch of facilities set up along the border, such that we can receive the refugees and get them very quickly back to Canada in the thousands. I'd like to see the forward deployment of forces, including at least another 3,000 to 4,000 Canadians to Latvia, where we've already got 500 or 600 to act as a bulwark, a barrier against which further options for NATO can be enhanced. Right now, we don't have any options. It's either war when we're not ready, or we keep getting ready for a little while.

GF: All right. Sobering.

GAL: It is.

GF: General Leslie, thank you for your time today.

GAL: Always. Thank you.

CH: Andrew Leslie is a former top Canadian general and a former Liberal MP. We reached him in Ottawa.

[Music: Ambient]

Daylight Saving Time Permanent

Guest: Tammy Bradford

CH: This week, while you were trying to remember whether you'd actually changed the clock in your car, lawmakers in the U.S. were busy trying to get rid of the practice altogether. Yesterday, the U.S. Senate passed the Sunshine Protection Act, which would make daylight saving time permanent. The bill still has to go through the House of Representatives. But already, here in Canada, the premiers of Ontario and British Columbia have expressed support for the move. People in Creston, however, might have a different view on the issue. Unlike the rest of province, the town in the Kootenay region of southeastern B.C., doesn't change its clocks. It stays on Mountain Standard Time, year-round. Tammy Bradford is the manager of the Creston Museum -- which is where we reached her.

GF: Tammy, Creston has opted out of all this clock changing business for a long time. Why is that?

TAMMY BRADFORD: Like over a century! This goes back to 1898, in fact, when the Canadian Pacific Railway built through the Creston Valley. And the C.P.R. decided that Creston would be part of their Mountain Time division. So we've always been on the same time as Calgary. And I think the reason for that is because just a little bit north and west of us, we have Kootenay Lake. And the C.P.R. built to Kootenay Lake, laid their tracks that far and loaded all of their passengers on to steamships to go the rest of the way along the lake to Nelson. And then, they got on another train and headed west from there. So the lake, I think, represented this very logical place to change from Mountain to Pacific Time zones.

GF: Hmmm!

TB: You know, if you've got a four to seven-hour steamship journey down the lake, really, [GF chuckles] who cares what time it is when you get on the boat or get off? The train is going to leave when you get there. So, I think it just made a lot of sense.

GF: So what do you make of all this debate that is going on in so many other places now about whether to keep or ditch Daylight Savings Time?

TB: [laughing] Oh my goodness! We have these debates all the time. Creston not changing its time was never a problem until Alberta started adopting Daylight Savings Time in 1971.

GF: Uh-huh?

TB: So ever since then, we've had these debates. And there… there are three camps in Creston. There are those, including me, that feel like it's just fine. Just leave it as it is. Yes, we need to do a little bit of mental gymnastics, but oh well. And then there's those who want to observe Daylight Savings Time, and that's divided into two camps. There are those who feel we should observe it according to Mountain Time and those who feel we should observe it according to Pacific Time. And that's often a very personal choice, depending on whether you work for the school board or Interior Health, or, you know, if you've got business in Cranbrook or relatives in Calgary or… or whatever your… your personal connections with east or west is going to influence which of those two camps you're in.

GF: Who knew that it was so… so fraught?

TB: Yes. Yeah, so we have these arguments all the time. But for the most part, we just go, yep, all those poor crazy people in the rest of the country who have to change their clocks twice a year. [GF chuckles] You guys really need to get with the program and follow Creston's example. [both chuckling]

GF: But… but tell me, because as you point out, it does create some complications along the way.

TB: It does.

GF: If you don't change your clocks, but everybody around you does. What are the problems that arise from that?

TB: Well, you know, often going for medical appointments means going to either Cranbrook to the east or Kelowna to the west. So half the year, you're going to be on the same time as Cranbrook and half the year, you're going to be on the same time as Trail. And you know, you do have to do this mental gymnastics, and you need to work in the travel time with the time change factored in there. And I know that can trip people up. You know, I did it earlier today, just talking to you guys. I'm going, yeah, we're an hour ahead of you. And no, no, no, the time has changed. [both chuckle] So we're now on the same time as Vancouver. So… so there is a bit of that.

GF: Well, the arguments for… for changing, for observing Daylight Saving Time is that you get more light at the end of the day, right?

TB: Yes.

GF: Which, of course, means you get even darker mornings. So how does your community deal with those dark winter mornings?

TB: Oh, I just roll over and have another nap. [GF laughs] I ignore them altogether. [both laughing] Yeah, I'm not a morning person. I do find it a lot easier to get up earlier in the summer when it's brighter. I think that's probably fairly common no matter where you live, whether you adopt Daylight Saving or not.

GF: I don't know. It sounds to me like you guys would have not much to think about or discuss if you… if you just had normal time and were on the same time zone as everybody else. [chuckling]

TB: We have totally normal time. It's the rest of the world who --

GF: Hasn't caught up.

TB: Needs to get with the program here. So, yeah, I don't think it's a huge deal. I mean, you just turn on your lights a little bit earlier and plan accordingly.

GF: Yeah, you're Premier John Horgan has said that the passing of this bill brings B.C. another step closer to also ending time changes in the province. So it sounds like they're going to be catching up with Creston at some point. Do you welcome that?

TB: I think so. For me, it's like, yeah, okay, great! It's about time! But it's really just, yeah, do what you want, and people will adjust, and there will be some grumbling either way. [GF chuckles] But there's grumbling when you have to change or when you have to get up early and mess up your schedules and everything.

GF: Yeah, there's no winning.

TB: No winning.

GF: All right. Tammy, thank you so much.

TB: You're quite welcome.

GF: Take care.

TB: You, too.

CH: Tammy Bradford is the manager of the Creston Museum in Creston, British Columbia -- which is where we reached her.

[Music: Bright piano]

Dug Is Not A Spud

[Music: “Let's Call The Whole Thing Off” by Ella Fitzgerald and Louis Armstrong]

CH: Well, the people at Guinness would have liked po-tay-toe or po-tah-toe. Unfortunately, they're not so big on gourd. Which is why they've called the whole thing off. Last November, we unearthed a gem, when we contacted Colin Craig-Brown, who thought he'd done the same. While working in the garden with his wife, Mr. Craig-Brown had stumbled on a huge potato.

SOUNDCLIP

COLIN CRAIG-BROWN: It’s bigger than a basketball. And… oh, I’d say three times the size of one of your American football football things. [CO laughs]

CH: When they weighed the potato they'd dug up, which they called "Dug", Colin Craig-Brown and his wife discovered it was 7.9 kilograms. Shattering the existing world record for largest potato, [said with unimpressed tone] which was a mere 4.9. And it was clear that Mr. Craig-Brown was proud of his discovery. A fatherly kind of pride.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: You were dressing him up at some point, right? Putting hats on him and stuff.

CCB: Oh yeah. We had a hat on him. Because we took him out, you know, to give him a bit of sunshine one day. Some people reckon he looks like a baby with his hat on. But I just think he looks like a potato with a hat sitting on top of him.

CH: That's such a poignant thing to hear today. It’s even more poignant when we do this to it.

SOUNDCLIP

[Music: What is this sad vocalization?]

CCB: [a filter is used to make him sound distant and echoing] Some people reckon he looks like a baby with his hat on. But I just think he looks like a potato with a hat sitting on top of him.

CH: For you see, after the Craig-Browns submitted all the evidence to Guinness, Guinness responded: "Sadly the specimen is not a potato -- and is in fact the tuber of a type of gourd. For this reason we do unfortunately have to disqualify the application.” Now, Colin Craig-Brown has greeted this heartbreaking news with courage. He told the Associated Press, "Dug is the destroyer from Down Under. He is the world's biggest not-a-potato." And that's the spirit. Dug is big and beautiful, whatever he is. And after all his research, Colin Craig-Brown says he's now going to deliberately try to grow a record-breaking potato. Which means this advice applies to both his yard and his soul.

[Music: Folk]

Part 2: Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe Released, Russia Ukraine Talks

Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe Released

Guest: Rebecca Ratcliffe

CH: After six years in detention, Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe is a free woman. The British-Iranian dual citizen was imprisoned in Iran in 2016 after she was charged with espionage and plotting to overthrow the government while on a family vacation. She has denied the charges. Her husband, Richard Ratcliffe, has been calling for her release -- even going on a three-week hunger strike in 2019. Today, he spoke about what her homecoming meant to him and their seven-year-old daughter, Gabriella.

SOUNDCLIP

RICHARD RATCLIFFE: Well, I suppose that we can stop being a moment in history and start being a normal family again. Yeah, it's been a long time, hasn't it? We were just saying… you know, last night, Gabriella was asking, is Mummy really coming back tomorrow? I said, well, I don't… I don't know for sure. I think we're close to her. I now know pretty surely she is coming home.

CH: Richard Ratcliffe is the husband of Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe. Ms. Zhagari-Ratcliffe and another British-Iranian citizen, Anoosheh Ashoori, were flown to the U.K. from Iran today. Rebecca Ratcliffe is Ms. Zhagari-Ratcliffe's sister-in-law. We reached her in Newport, Wales, earlier today, while Ms. Zhagari-Ratcliffe was still in transit.

GF: Rebecca, he talks about a moment a long time in coming. Now that the moment is here, how does it feel?

REBECCA RATCLIFFE: To be honest, it's a little bit hard to sink in. As the day's gone on and we are adjusting to the news just, you know, amazement really, isn't it? And our hearts are full. You know, every time I sit down and think about it for a while, I start crying. And seeing those photos of her coming through on Twitter, where she's just coming in the plane and those big smiles on her face, that sense of freedom, gosh! It's just like almost like a release of energy, a release of emotion that for six years we've been holding back, waiting for this moment. [chuckling] It's quite overwhelming, to be honest.

GF: I'm sure. I'm sure it must be. How is she doing? Do you know?

RR: So I haven't heard from her since she got on the flight. This morning, I heard from her via Richard, very anxious. She was sitting in the airport waiting, not knowing whether she would get on the flight or not. You know, the stakes are so high. She was about to get back home to her family, or it could have all gone wrong. So I suspect this long journey is quite useful for her, calming her down a little bit and letting it sink in that the reality is that she is about to come home. So, probably a lot of mixed emotions still, I'm sure, we'll be very overwhelmed when she touches ground.

GF: Can you take us back and remind Canadians why she was imprisoned in the first place?

RR: So she'd gone over with Gabriella, her daughter, who wasn't even two at that point, to celebrate Nowruz, which is a Persian celebration for New Year. And she'd done that every year. It's a very big Persian holiday. But, unfortunately, she got taken on the way back, coming out of the airport by the Iranian National Guards, and we lost her. And then, she was imprisoned and given a five-year jail sentence. And now, for the media, they say that she's been spying. She never has been. But behind the scenes, they've always told her she was taken as a hostage against a British debt that has been failed to be repaid since the time of the Shah back in 1979 and that the Iranians were putting leverage on the British government to repay that debt because they had failed through other routes.

GF: And has that debt now been repaid?

RR: Yeah, we believe it was repaid today.

GF: Why did it take so long?

RR: Well, who knows? It's very difficult. You know, the Foreign Office obviously didn't give too much away. They can't really for national security reasons. But it's never been clear to us behind the scenes, you know, people you ask, what the reasons were for not repaying that debt? There's always been a reluctance on the British side, and… and why it wasn't repaid. You know, we were always quite open. She was being held hostage for the debt, and they always denied that. But lo and behold, when you repay the debt, she gets freed. So, you know, we… we've been validated. [chuckle] We were right all along. But it's difficult to know why it hasn't happened before? But obviously, from a family point of view, today, we're very grateful that it has happened and the Foreign Office have been able to negotiate her release.

GF: What do you know about how she has handled these past six years?

RR: [clears throat] So, you don't experience something like Nazanin has experienced, six years of a huge emotional trauma and torture, really, without having some impact on your mental health. And there's definite scars there. You know, there's a lot of physical complaints that she never used to complain about before that seem to be anxiety-related. She's often anxious, sometimes depressed. There are times when obviously it's heightened, especially, you know, recently, where she felt like she might be about to be released or she was getting summoned to the courts. But even on a day-to-day basis, you know, she's… she hasn't got that confidence she used to have. I think that's the bottom line. And hopefully, she will regain some of that when she comes home. But it's going to take a lot of time and… and a lot of healing.

GF: What do you know about how she was treated while she was in prison?

RR: I don't think we know the half of it. For the first nine months, she was in solitary confinement and her captors… and I suspect there's a lot she hasn't talked about yet, although she has talked about quite a bit of it. Then, when she was in an open ward with prisoners, I think it was more emotional torment. A lot of, you know, telling her that her husband's left her, that she won't see her child again and... and a lot of taking away privileges that you and I wouldn't think of as privileges. You know, having basic foods and stuff, but they can certainly take it away from her. Or not… not being allowed to go see doctors and things. And… and just always, you know, this back and forth of you're about to be released. Oh no, wait a minute, you've been given another couple of years on this jail sentence. I think it's… there's a lot of trauma and…, and I think it's going to take a long, long time to process it all.

GF: And she wasn't the only victim here. Your brother, Richard, has been credited for keeping her story alive and pressing for her release. How is he doing?

RR: Yeah, I think he's… he's… he's doing well. You know, he is what you see. He's… he's quite stoic. He's just been focussing on the campaign, waiting to get her home and just belligerently battering away and keeping her prominent in the media. I think it will be a difficult adjustment as she comes home and realizing that he doesn't have to be that person anymore. He can start being a dad and a husband. And… and I think that's going to be a little bit of a difficult journey for him as well. But in terms of his mental health, he's coped remarkably well, to be honest.

GF: And Gabriella is going to get her mother back.

RR: Yes. So and you know, that little girl has been without a mommy figure in her life for a good couple of years now. And, of course, when she was in Iran, she was brought up by Granny. So mommy figures in her earlier years are really important to her, and she's really missed the absence of that. So she's been looking forward to Mommy coming home, Mommy taking her to school. She often talks about Mommy putting her to bed and things. And I think she will embrace that. How she will cope with two parents parenting her and her not ruling the roost, I don't know. We'll see.

GF: [chuckling] So what's the celebration going to be?

RR: So I think quite a calm, quite intimate one tonight. And then, hopefully, a big family reunion at the weekend. Although, that hasn't been confirmed. I guess it's sort of up to Nazanin, and when and where, there will be a big proper celebration because we got a lot of people to thank. I don't know. I think that has to be at Nazanin's pace, really.

GF: Right.

RR: I think we'll see how the next week or two pan out.

GF: Well, thank you so much for this. We're so pleased for you, Rebecca.

RR: Thank you.

GF: Bye-bye.

RR: Bye now.

CH: Rebecca Ratcliffe is Nazanin-Zaghari-Ratcliffe's sister-in-law. We reached her in Newport, Wales earlier today, before Ms. Zaghari-Ratcliffe arrive in the U.K. And you can find more on that story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Light rock]

B.C. Teacher Sends Supplies

CH: As the war in Ukraine intensifies by the day, many Canadians have been looking at ways to help those fleeing the war. Marta Orellana of North Vancouver is one of those Canadians. The elementary school teacher has been working with her cousin in Poland to send more than 8,000 dollars worth of essential goods to refugees.

SOUNDCLIP

MARTA ORELLANA: Last Friday, my cousin in Poland posted a photo of the train station in her backyard that was filled with hundreds of refugees. And I realized then that this was actually a central hub that was welcoming Ukrainians who were arriving directly from Ukraine. And it hit close to home, and I saw this opportunity to offer my help. I reached out to her the next day, and she told me how everyone in town was just scrambling to collect supplies and donations. She told me about the women and children with nothing more than a bag or two. They were lost, scared. So here, you know, we have the means to provide the supplies they need. But sending a box to Poland would take weeks or even months, and it would cost a fortune. So I set up a Polish Amazon account, and I offered to buy the needed items. Among them were strollers, hygiene products, blankets. And right away, my friends and neighbours and family all wanted to help, too. And since you need a Polish account to order, I offered to place the orders, and they transferred me their donations. And what's incredible is I placed the first order last Sunday morning. And on Monday, my cousin had received it. She shared a photo of the blankets we sent.

STEPHEN QUINN: Wow.

MO: Already on the cots in the welcome centre. A photo of my niece with the box of stuffies we ordered, handing them out to children. And I think, you know, since then, people have… have been wanting to donate. We've sent so many supplies directly to those who need it and fast. And I think because it was so fast, we could respond to needs so quickly. She would tell me daily, okay, we need… you know, midweek, she said, actually, can you send underwear for kids 10 to 14? Because we had sent to children under 10.

SQ: Right.

MO: And, you know, we had it there within two days.

SQ: And what are some of the other goods that you've been able to donate?

MO: Um, so we have collected and sent almost [chuckling] 9,000 dollars worth of goods now, including about 35 strollers, 280 blankets, thermal blankets and sleeping bags, over 1,000 diapers, almost 500 feminine hygiene pads and tampons and almost 200 stuffies. And this is among many other items.

CH: Marta Orellana is an elementary school teacher in North Vancouver. She was speaking with Stephen Quinn, host of Early Edition, today.

[Music: Electronica]

Russia Ukraine Talks

Guest: Rose Gottemoeller

CH: After three weeks of despair, there were hopes of progress today, at the talks between Russia and Ukraine. The Financial Times reports that negotiators on both sides have raised the possibility of concessions -- concessions that could see Ukraine give up its ambitions of joining NATO in return for Russian security guarantees. But Rose Gottemoeller warns that there's a vast distance between progress at the negotiating table and putting down the weapons that are creating so much horror on the ground. Ms. Gottemoeller is a former U.S. government official who served as NATO's deputy secretary general. We reached her in Mountainview, California.

GF: Ms. Gottemoeller, you have seen these reports of a possible draft deal between the two sides. How much hope should we put in it?

ROSE GOTTEMOELLER: I've seen it as significant in the last few days that both sides seem to be dropping some of their significant demands. For example, a few days ago, Vladimir Putin signalled that he was ready to drop the demand for deNazification and regime change. In other words, he would no longer try to oust President Zelensky. Zelensky, in turn, has begun to talk about a willingness to consider neutrality status. So I would say both presidents took a significant step in the right direction in terms of moving the negotiations forward, and I think we are seeing the fruit of that now at the negotiating table.

GF: Why do you think they've come to this point?

RG: Well, although Putin keeps insisting that all military goals are being achieved, in fact, his armed forces are failing spectacularly on the ground. For a while, I thought perhaps the news wasn't getting through to him, but I do think that his willingness to move and not to seek the complete capitulation of Ukraine. I think that's a sign the news is actually getting to him that his military is failing. As far as Zelensky is concerned, he needs to get Russian troops off his national territory and stop these horrendous attacks on his civilians. So I think both men have had good reasons for trying to… to take a step, as I said, in the direction of diplomacy.

GF: The report suggests that as you… as you mentioned, that Ukraine would make a commitment to neutrality would give up on the possibility of NATO membership in exchange for Russian security guarantees. How realistic does that seem to you?

RG: [chuckle] Well, one must doubt Russian security guarantees with the boots of Russian soldiers on Ukrainian territory. So, I am somewhat skeptical about that aspect of it. But we will see what they actually come up with at the negotiating table. And by the way, there's a lot of behind-the-scenes activities involving the European leadership in France. President Macron and Chancellor Schulz in Germany have been very involved, so I'm not sure any kind of guarantee system would be up entirely to the Russians alone. There may be some… some notion that the Europeans would at least participate in being ready to try to lend their best efforts to any further… any further crises in future.

GF: Right. Some of the language that… that is being made public is protection from allies such as the U.S., the U.K. and Turkey.

RG: Right, exactly. And again, I don't know exactly what that would amount up to in terms of… in terms of being ready to help Ukraine in future. But at least Russia must have in mind what they are seeing now. That is this enormous burden of sanctions laid down against them and also the really strong military assistance that NATO has been rendering to Ukraine.

GF: Explain to me what Ukrainian neutrality would… would actually mean. What would that look like on the ground? How would that be different?

RG: Interesting, you know, for many years… and this is one reason why I'm very skeptical of Putin's concern about NATO. But on the borderlands of… of Russia have existed both NATO member states, Norway, and also, states that are neutral, Austria, Finland, Sweden. So there are a couple of different kinds of arrangements on Russia's borders. They have been comfortable with NATO neighbours in the past. Now, not so much, I suppose. But these neutral states have also existed on NATO's borders and have really thrived economically and politically in the years since World War Two. So that could also be a healthy situation for Ukraine to be in. And, indeed, they will have a lot to do to recover from this… this war on the economic front.

GF: Yeah, there's also the territories, though, that Russia seized in 2014, Crimea, et cetera. Do you know… can you imagine that Russia would commit to a deal that did not allow them to keep those territories?

RG: That doesn't seem to be where their heads are at. I saw this morning that Putin again demanded acknowledgement of Crimea and Donetsk and Lugansk, as these independent territories declared last week. So, that doesn't seem to be the Kremlin's position at the moment. I do want to say, though, that throughout the 70 years of the Soviet Union, the United States and its allies never acknowledged that the Baltic states, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, were part of the USSR. Today they are part of NATO. So I think we just have to hold out that the future may be different than what we're seeing today, and we never have to acknowledge that Crimea is part of Russia.

GF: If the possibility of a deal is really alive, what should NATO do now?

RG: I think that NATO must do everything it can to keep up the pace of the armaments shipments and also the humanitarian assistance it's been rendering to Ukraine. And also helping NATO allies, who are bearing the brunt of the now three million Ukrainian refugees who are on NATO soil. So it must [chuckle] stay the course in terms of what it has been doing. I also have been arguing that it should be paying more attention to the provision of air and missile defence to Ukraine to ensure that further Russian missile attacks can be… can be deflected. That's the real problem right now. I think Ukraine hasn't had sufficient missile defence to handle these… these missile strikes that have been unrelenting from the Russian side. So I think NATO should look at additional defensive capabilities, particularly focussing on deflecting missile attacks. So that's number one. Number two, NATO can and will, I think, play a role in terms of supporting the diplomacy and doing everything it can, individual NATO leaders, to continue to advance the diplomacy.

GF: But they need to be careful about escalation. There is pressure, public pressure, on many countries to… to do more.

RG: I think for NATO, the strategic objective now has to be preventing the escalation of this invasion of Ukraine into a wider war in Europe. It is in no one's interest for this invasion to escalate into a war across Europe. That has been NATO's objective throughout. And I really think that is the most responsible position to continue to… to advocate.

GF: All right, we'll leave it there. Thanks so much for talking to us today.

RG: My pleasure.

CH: Rose Gottemoeller is a former deputy secretary general of NATO. We reached her in Mountainview, California.

[Music: Glassy guitar riff]

Part 3: Christchurch Survivor, Archive: Murder Hornets

B.C. Paralympian

CH: When B.C.'s Natalie Wilkie goes out, over the next little while, she's going to face a wardrobe question: should she wear a medal? And if so, which one? The Paralympic cross-country skier has just returned to Canada from Beijing. And she has some new friends with her: two gold medals, one silver, and one bronze.

SOUNDCLIP

NATALIE WILKIE: I'm still processing everything that happened. I just got back early yesterday morning, so my sleep schedule is completely wack, but I'm sure in the next couple of weeks, it's… it's slowly going to sink in.

CHRIS WALKER: Now, you won three medals in 2018, and then now four from Beijing, that's seven in total. You're, what, 21 years old?

NW: I'm 21.

CW: That's incredible. What do you credit your success to?

NW: Well, I've been a skier my entire life, so I think that definitely sped up my development as a paraNordic athlete. I mean, in 2018, I was only 17 going to the games, and I really didn't expect anything. I was just going to go in and do my best. And I know I'm still young. But the last four years have… I've been super focussed on training, and I think I've had a lot of really good training years that have led up to this. And so, it was less of a surprise this time to win medals. But yeah, I'm definitely still pretty young, so I've got a long future in this.

CW: As you say, you've been skiing since, I think, age four. You lost four of your fingers in an accident at school when you were in Grade 9. I remember that. We covered it, I think, on this news program. You were back on skis within just a few weeks. Where do you --

NW: I was, yeah.

CW: Yeah! Where do you draw that dedication? Like, where does that come from?

NW: Um, I mean, when I had to have my accident, it was a pretty traumatic time for me, and I really just think getting back into skiing right away helped me move through that experience. I mean, at that point, training and skiing was what I did like pretty much all the time outside of school. And so, just getting back into the routine of things, I think, was really helpful.

CW: Can you tell us a bit about what kind of support you have here at home?

NW: Yeah, I mean, Salmon Arm has just been amazing. I didn't bring my phone with me to Beijing. And so, I got back and opened it up, and there were so many messages on every social media channel and email, and it was just overwhelming to look at it all, but also just awesome to see the level of support that people had for me at these games.

CH: That was Paralympian Natalie Wilkie speaking to Chris Walker, host of Daybreak South.

[Music: Orchestral]

New Fort Mac MLA

CH: Last night, Brian Jean easily won a by-election in Fort McMurray- Lac La Biche. And with that victory secured, the Alberta politician has his sights set on another vote. After co-founding the United Conservative Party with Jason Kenney, Mr. Jean lost the leadership vote to Mr. Kenney in 2017. And during this campaign, he's made no secret of his desire to expel his co-founder as the head of the UCP. In early April, he'll have his chance when Mr. Kenney's leadership comes under review.

SOUNDCLIP

BRIAN JEAN: This by-election was simply about stopping the NDP next year by starting the process of renewing the UCP now.

DAVID GRAY: Explain to me what that means for you?

BJ: Well, what it means for me is that April 9th is one of the most important dates in politics in Alberta in a long time. And I think for a long time to come. Because April 9th is, of course, the time that UCP members will have the opportunity to meet in Red Deer and to have their say on the special general meeting about the leadership of Jason Kenney over the last three years. And you know, what you can see is clearly that the probability of the UCP winning another government in Alberta under Jason Kenney is non-existent, and we're going to have an NDP overwhelming majority government.

DG: Well, look, I hear what you're saying, but you're not running against the NDP yet. You're running against Jason Kenney. What makes Brian Jean a better choice than Jason Kenney?

BJ: Well, first of all, I'm a different type of leader. And my leadership style means that I empower people around me. I get people involved. I get people excited about the opportunity of being in politics. And some of the decision-making, maybe that wouldn't have changed so much, but I will tell you what would change dramatically is how the decisions are made, how I would set up a government, how I would make sure that we empower other Albertans to come with us. How we would make sure that we consult more widely and answer the questions for Albertans by way of bringing in the laws that reflect what they want. You know, if we really are at war with COVID, let's get the leader of the opposition in there. Let's make sure that Rachel Notley is on the COVID Cabinet Committee, that she's at the roundtable, that she's able to know what's happening so she can convey that to her caucus and to Albertans, so Albertans will trust AHS and the government. And right now… so I think there's a lot of trust that has been lost, and we need to get that back. How you serve Albertans during a pandemic is you make sure they trust the healthcare system, and they don't feel that they are on another side of a line that's so divisive. Right now, we're so divisive. We need to bring Albertans in together. We have major battles to deal with Ottawa and the rest of the world right now on some of our products, as you know. And we need to be more serious about that. But bringing her in, making sure Albertans trust the government making the decisions and that no secrets are being kept, I think that's very, very important. I think also putting AHS at the cabinet table and answering questions that people, normal Albertans, want the answer to. They want to know details. This is about people's healthcare, people staying at home, their freedoms. If you're going to take some of these freedoms away, my goodness gracious, you better explain that to them.

DG: Ah, okay.

BJ: So I just say to you, things need to be done differently.

CH: Brian Jean, the newly elected MLA for Fort McMurray-Lac La Biche. He was speaking to David Gray, host of The Calgary Eyeopener.

[Music: Light rock]

WPG Woman Trying To Bring Sister To Canada

CH: Valerie Alipova is busy making space in her home and anxiously awaiting her sister's arrival. For weeks, Ms. Alipova has been trying to help her sister, Alina, and her two young kids get out of Ukraine. And trying to figure out how to bring them to Winnipeg. The family is still on the move. But Ms. Alipova hopes their long journey will finally come to an end next week when they arrive in Canada.

SOUNDCLIP

VALERIE ALIPOVA: Right now, my sister and her two kids are in a stranger's home just outside of Czech Republic. They fled Ukraine about two weeks ago when the war broke out. And now, they're waiting to come here.

MARCY MARKUSA: How quickly did they leave? Like, what was their… what was their exit like?

VA: The exit was very challenging. They went to three different borders. One of the borders, the Polish border, had 500 cars. They went in the middle of the night. Then they went to a different border, tried to cross the border with the train, but the train would only allow five people to board every hour, and there were like thousands of people. So they went to the third border with Hungary, and they sat in a stranger's car and were able to cross then. Alec wasn't able to… Alec is her husband, wasn't able to leave the country. He had to say goodbye to the kids and to Alina at the border. He is staying in his small town, and he has been driving people to the border. He's been driving women and children to the border. And he also gave up his apartment to three internally displaced families. And now, he moved in with his mom, who is also hosting two displaced families. So he's trying to shine some light in this darkness of war. My mom -- Alina's mom, too -- she's staying in Zaporizhzhia. She's a middle school principal, and she is staying with her community so she could help out with managing the bomb shelter that is just underneath her school. She decided to stay so the kids could feel some kind of sense of normality and some connection with her and not to be too scared in the bomb shelter.

MM: Your family sounds incredible. What are your thoughts about your mother and the choice that she's made to stay?

VA: It's a difficult choice for us, but I respect it. She wants to contribute to the well-being of her community, and that's very admirable, and it inspires us all, even here.

MM: When you and your husband were… were thinking about all of this and trying to figure out what to do, what went into your decision to try and get them here?

VA: We knew that we were going to do it. We're going to help them as much as we could in the beginning of the war. We felt a bit hopeless, but this is something we could do and help to open our space for them. We helped them to apply for the visa. We have furnished our basement, and we have connected with our communities as well for some support, toys, clothes. We hope they will get here next week, early next week.

CH: Valerie Alipova speaking today with Marcy Markusa, host of CBC Winnipeg's Information Radio. Ms. Alipova is trying to bring her Ukrainian sister and her two children to Canada.

[Music: Pensive piano]

Christchurch Survivor

Guest: Temel Atacocugu

CH: It's been three years now since New Zealand suffered a horrifying terrorist attack. On March 15, 2019, a gunman walked into two mosques in Christchurch, killing a total of 51 worshippers. In the aftermath, New Zealand's Muslim community is still struggling, but determined to heal. Temel Atacocugu is one of the survivors of the attacks. He just completed a two-week Walk For Peace event in honour of those who were killed. We reached Mr. Atacocugu in Christchurch.

GF: Temel, what was going through your mind as you finally completed your Walk For Peace yesterday, arriving back at the mosque?

TEMEL ATACOCUGU: I was really very mixed feeling, but more than nervous. When I arrived to the gate of Al Noor mosque, it was a big relief. I was so happy to complete it,

GF: and I understand there were a lot of people there to… to welcome you as you arrived?

TA: Yeah, I had big, big supports, hundreds of people also in front of the mosque to do a welcoming for me. Yeah, it was really amazing when I saw this support from beautiful people.

GF: This was the first time that you had been back to the mosque in three years. And you… you timed it to be there at exactly the same time the shooting started three years ago. As… as you stood in the mosque and as you prayed, what went through your mind?

TA: I feel so released when I was praying. And then, I was praying how thankful i was to Allah for giving me this opportunity to complete. And when I was survived from this attack three years ago, this terrorist tried to destroy our peaceful life. Not only our life, our peaceful life in New Zealand. And three years later, as a victim, I feel I’m success to bring to the peaceful life again in New Zealand. So that was emotionally is really happy and peaceful.

GF: Did you… did you think about what happened that day?

TA: Honestly, I cleared my mind and then I didn't feel about that day because of it is a new beginning after my journey.

GF: Yeah. This was quite an accomplishment; 360 kilometres over two weeks, it must have been very physically demanding? How hard was it?

TA: Yeah, it was really hard because when you are thinking I get shot nine times and five bullet is only my legs, you know, and… and one in each knee. So it is quite hard for me walking in different weather conditions and then walking next to the asphalt and shingles. It was physically is really challenging. And, of course, my joints and my hips are aching. But also, blisters on your feet. So it's not really, really helping to walk the big distance in the time. The completing, you know, is some days so difficult to do.

GF: I understand you took the same path that the gunman took that day before he went into the mosque. Why was it important for you to follow the same path?

TA: It is really important as a symbol because of three years ago, he started his hateful journey from his rented house in Dunedin to come to the Al Noor mosque and Linwood Islamic centres. And he did his massacres, you know, and his terrorist activities. And then, killing 51 innocent people. And the youngest one was three years old. And then, he injured 40 pupils and the youngest was a four-year-old little girl. And then, thousands of traumatized people. As I said that before, he is trying to destroy our peaceful life because that was the big reason why I come to New Zealand in 2009, when I'm set to life in one of the peaceful countries on Earth. And… and I have two sons growing here, too, you know? And… and I was so emotional because kids are always affected from the violence or war or, you

know, they are more innocent than anyone else. And I was thinking, I have to make security of our future life again and bring the peaceful life back to the New Zealand. What the terrorist damaged. And pretty much with my pilgrimage is a blessing to New Zealand what he did with his hatred. And then, I decided I am more strong than him and are more… doing nice things against him. And I will walk, and I want to show to all around the world and all extremist ideas how we are strong and how faith is very strong. And then I want the show we are one, and we are not divided. And I have lots of beautiful people's support behind me for this walk.

GF: It was such a shocking and devastating effect. Three years later, have things changed in New Zealand? Do you feel that the country has come to terms with the… I guess, the Islamophobia, the things that led to this terrible massacre?

TA: Yes. Yes, I think so because of after that, what Muslim, you know, as a Muslim person, and as a victum person, many of us, we showed our reaction in a peaceful way, even if we do protest is peaceful way, you know? And when we are talking against him saying everything's in peaceful way. So, it's just showing how Islam is about peace, you know? Because this is what we learned from our religion, to be in peace and give the message peaceful. And then, you know, after 15 March, next day, New Zealanders reacted really beautifully. And then came to the mosque and lived the flowers. And then some of them crying lots, even if they don't know us, you know? And then, you know, they are wearing the… the hijabs. You know, they show respect to our religions. And then, they show unity. You know, we are united. So, and we are feeling part of New Zealand, and I'm proud of to be Muslim, I’m proud of to be Turkish, and I'm proud of to be New Zealand.

GF: And I'm sure New Zealand is proud of you. Temel, thank you so much for telling us your story today.

TA: Thank you. Thank you very much, Gillian.

CH: Temel Atacocugu is one of the survivors of the Christchurch mosque terrorist attacks. He just completed a two-week Walk For Peace event in honour of those who were killed. We reached him in Christchurch, New Zealand.

[Music: Uke!!!]

Archive: Murder Hornets

CH: They say you should know your enemy. And University of California San Diego biologist James Nieh clearly agrees. On the one hand, he actually defends t he so-called "murder hornet" -- by refusing to call it that. "They are predators," he admits. But, "so are lions and tigers, and we don't call them murder lions." Now, he's got a point. That moniker is kind of redundant. But James Nieh also makes a point of trying to make those hornets redundant… at least the horny male ones. I don't mean literally horny. The hornets are massive and gross and venomous, but they don't actually have horns. I just mean the ones looking to mate. With help from colleagues in China, Professor Nieh's lab has devised a cocktail of synthetic sex pheromones they say can lure the predatory hornets to their deaths. The researchers are mostly preoccupied with protecting North American bees, which have not adapted to defend themselves from the merrrrrcurial hornets. But their findings will likely come as a relief to humans too -- especially the farmers whose crops those bees pollinate. In fact, according to B.C. apiculturist, Paul van Westendorp, those are just about the only humans who are likely to feel the hornet's sting any time soon.

SOUNDCLIP

PAUL VAN WESTENDORP: Yeah, you have to see these things in a proper context, these Asian hornets. By the way, Asian hornets is a whole group of different species. And this particular one is the Asian giant Hornet. And this is a very large formidable insect. And they are not interested in us. We are not their target. They are only causing some issues with humans when their nest is disturbed. But with the rest, they don't care about us.

CO: So Asian giant Hornet, that gives us a start on describing this creature. Can you tell us what they look like?

PAUL VAN WESTENDORP: Well, it is a very stout bodied character. They are all female, of course, because that's the world of bees and wasps. And these hornets are approximately five centimeters in length. And the most characteristic thing is instead it has an unusually large head -- an orange coloured head. And that head is so big because it has a set of mandibles that are designed to do one thing and that is to eat or to bite.

CO: And so eat to bite. And I guess to kill. So what is it actually going after?

PAUL VAN WESTENDORP: Like all hornets and wasps, they are predators of other insects. That is their mission in life. Now, this particular hornet is what we call an apex hunter. There are no other insects that feast or bite or hunt them. And by definition, apex hunters may be very fierce, but their occurrence is very very low. So contrary to what our friends in some parts of the States have been saying, we are not seeing and will never anticipate the countryside being overrun by these quote murder hornets. I mean, it just doesn't work that way. But our main concern is the public exposure in that their nests are on the ground. So the danger is or the risk is that you have an inadvertent disturbance of the nest because of the family dog that walks by or the child that pokes a stick in the hole. And the wasps come out and then you have some serious problem.

CO: Yikes. So I want to ask you about this because people have died from being stung by these hornets. So how deadly are they?

PAUL VAN WESTENDORP: Well, that is, of course, totally dependent on a number of factors, including one's sensitivity to it. By the way, there are a fair number of people that die every year in North America because of honey bee stings. The problem with this character is, is that its body size, it has a large volume of venom and it has a smooth stinging apparatus so it can sting repeatedly. Its venom also contains an enzyme and peptide that is causing tissue necrosis, so causing the tissue to dissolve and therefore you have an increased danger of an infection afterward. So it is mostly the total number of stings you get, the number of individuals that you stung by at any one time, that will dictate how much of a risk is involved.

CO: I have to say, they do sound murderous.

PAUL VAN WESTENDORP: Well, of course they are-- but not that they are -- they can be under the right circumstances. And we are definitely not happy to have found them in the first place. And our main focus right now is to use the public's observation by reporting any sightings of wasp like creatures to report to us, and then we can identify them, preferably in a photograph -- and in that case we can at least identify where they are located.

CO: How close are you to finding a way to -- obviously, they're invasive, they're not natives, but how do you get rid of them?

PAUL VAN WESTENDORP: Oh, we have some wonderful means -- when we find a nest that is the problem. If we find nests, then we have no problem to eradicate them.

CH: B.C. apiculturist, Paul van Westendorp, speaking with Carol in May, 2020 about the arrival of so-called "murder hornets" in North America -- and why we really shouldn't call them that. Mr. van Westendorp is not alone in defending the honour of the insect, while also working to eradicate it. Chris Looney is a scientist with the Washington State Department of Agriculture, who told As It Happens about his team's efforts to locate Asian giant hornets in November, 2020.

SOUNDCLIP

CL: That was really challenging. It probably was the most challenging part of this entire process. In both British Columbia and Washington state, we are not confident that we have tools that are really good at detecting them at low densities. So we’ve saturated the landscape with traps, but the traps are essentially mimosas hanging in a tree. There's probably lots of other things that could attract the hornets. We relied on public reports and that's what actually led to this. But that was just the first step of actually finding a hornet. Next, we have to figure out where does that hornet live? This is an animal that can forage easily eight kilometres. That's pretty far to run across the ground after a thing. So we used these radio tags and it turned out that they worked, but it was touch and go until we were positive.

CO: And I understand some of the high tech equipment you were using included dental floss?

CL: [laughing] Exactly. Refined by years of hygiene. You know, we had to choose between gluing a tag to the wasp and gluing is certainly something that is done with lots of insects. It didn't seem to work very well for us. And then there was some concern that it might interfere with the flight dynamics of the animal. The other option was to tie it, which they've been using in the United Kingdom, in Europe quite, quite successfully on this other species. We wanted a string that would kind of have high friction. And so that's why I ended up choosing dental floss. I think next year we'll use Teflon thread, which is a little bit more robust, equally friction-laden, I suppose, and hopefully harder for a wasp to chew off.

CO: OK, that's a little unknown trick. Now, there's a picture of you from last month when you were destroying the nest. You’re wearing quite the kit there. Can you describe that suit? Looks something like a scuba suit, something like a spacesuit.

CL: I'm going to go with spacesuit. So the wasps, these hornets have a stinger that is a lot longer and stronger than your typical yellow jacket or honeybee. So they will go right through typical beekeeping suit. Our safety team ordered these kind of special wasp-proof suits from Amazon, it turns out. And they were thicker and have these like two layers of mesh that are designed to maybe lock the stinger up. I mean, basically taking every precaution we can to avoid being injured or stung while we're dealing with these nests. They were horrible. I mean, they were uncomfortable and restricted movement. They look ridiculous. And no offence to the suit designer, I felt very much like I was in a B science fiction movie. [CO chuckles] But they did the job. We didn't get stung. [chuckling] So we are looking for something that's a little bit more fieldwork friendly than those.

CH: Chris Looney is a Washington State entomologist. He spoke to us in 2020. Now, researchers in California have announced a type of chemical trap that brings the Asian giant hornet to them. They say the scheme is especially seductive because the ingredients are easy to find at chemical suppliers. Which we suspect will soon be a hive of activity.

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March 16, 2022 Episode Transcript

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