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The AIH Transcript For March 10, 2022

[hosts]Gillian Findlay, Chris Howden[/hosts]

GILLIAN FINDLAY: Hello, I'm Gillian Findlay.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden, this is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

GF: The truth hurts. Vladimir Putin is cracking down on reporting about his invasion of Ukraine -- but a Russian journalist says her independent news outlet is doing whatever it can to publish the facts, despite the danger.

CH: Political football. The U.K. finally sanctions seven Russian oligarchs, including Chelsea Football Club owner Roman Abramovich — but our guest tells us it's unclear what the penalties will accomplish.

GF: Staying power. A Newfoundland community pulls off its very own Grand Seduction to keep a family doctor from leaving their island -- and while their fight's not over, it's clear his patients are a virtue.

CH: An about face for a bat face. Forty years after it was last spotted in Rwanda, an endangered bat may be making a comeback. And one of the experts who spotted it says there's no mistaking its exaggerated features.

GF: Reinventing the wheels. After years of contending with poorly designed bicycles, cyclists with dwarfism applaud a company that's peddling a bike they can pedal.

CH: And fake him ‘till You remake him. To help South Korea's newly elected president clinch his win, his campaign created an A.I. version of him -- a computerized clone who was more likeable and appealing than the real guy.

CH: As It Happens, the Thursday edition. Radio that asks not what your country can do for you, but what at least two yous can do for your country.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Russia: Putin Analysis, Bell Island Doctor, Dwarfism Bike

Russia: Putin Analysis

Guest: Galina Timchenko

CH: Galina Timchenko and her colleagues are throwing a little bit of reality into Vladimir Putin's news feed. Ms. Timchenko is the executive editor of Meduza, one of Russia's biggest independent news outlets. The head office is now in Latvia, but Meduza's journalists inside and outside Russia have been keeping Russians up to speed on both the invasion of Ukraine and the Kremlin's crackdown on freedom of speech. We reached Galina Timchenko in Riga, Latvia.

GF: Ms. Timchenko, how risky are things for your journalists inside Russia now?

GALINA TIMCHENKO: You know, I do not want to be very dramatic, but they are in grave danger right now.

GF: What is it you worry about?

GT: You know, I worry about their freedom and their lives. The State Duma passes these absolutely insane laws, speaking about covering so-called armed operations in Ukraine, and we call it the war. And if you are covering the war, and they consider it like fake news, you will face up to 15 years in prison and charged with state treason. But according to the Russian authorities, Russian media from the start of these so-called operations should use only official government sources of information. And we know for sure that they are lying every second. So we refused to follow their orders. We are all against censorship in any kind of censorship. And we call the war the war. We call invasion invasion. And we refused to follow censorship. So my journalist could face up to 15 years in prison.

GF: But for many Russians, maybe even most Russians, they still rely on the government news agencies, the ones that are controlled by the Kremlin. Can you help people outside understand, when… when Russians see stories, for instance, the bombing of the maternity hospital in Mariupol yesterday. And they and they see government propaganda that says, oh, those were just actors with very realistic makeup, but it wasn't true. Do people believe that?

GT: You know, unfortunately, we have no clear picture of people's beliefs because sociological services and experts are under government control. First, they took control of courts, then of the polls and any sociological experts. So we have no clear picture. How many Russians do believe the propaganda? And every… every person who is trying to say, you know, maybe 70 per cent of Russians believe the propaganda. It's false. It's a lie because we have no clear picture.

GF: What does the crackdown on journalists and protesters tell you about the way Vladimir Putin thinks this war is going?

GT: [chuckle] You know, it seems to me that Vladimir Putin began to prepare for this invasion, for this war, a year ago. When the campaign of so-called foreign agents started, I thought, why now? Why did he put so many activities to silence us? And I understood that. If somebody is preparing for war, the first thing he would do, he would silence all the independent voices, and he would leave only his propaganda machine.

GF: But how do you think he… how do you think he… he feels it's going?

GT: You know, unfortunately, I really think that Mr. Putin's brain is almost dead because he is making absolutely insane activities. And he behaves himself like an insane tyrant. So, I have no idea what in his head is going on? But what I really think is that he's far from reality.

GF: But if that's true, that he's divorced from reality, what is the impact of all the measures that the rest of the world has been taking? The sanctions, the withdrawal of… of support from Western businesses? Does it have an effect on somebody like that?

GT: It seems to me, yes. Because we have some information about Russian so-called oligarchs. Even as they raised their voice against his activities, so it seems to me that maybe, maybe, Putin's circle did not show him the real numbers. But his close circle and Russian elite fully understand what's happening now.

GF: But that doesn't seem to have affected his actions, does it?

GT: You know, he's a player. I consider him like a poker player. Every time, he's raised stakes up, up and up. So it seems to me that he's far from reality, and he's so selfish that he could sacrifice the country for his ambitions.

GF: You have been following him for years, decades.

GT: Yep!

GF: How do you think this ends?

GT: You know, I do not believe in some inner riot, but it seems to me that in three months or half a year of such harsh sanctions, Russians turn back to him.

GF: That implies that you think that if Russians turn their back on him, that they might then have the power to remove him. Do you think that's possible?

GT: Possible. But you know, unfortunately, before the crackdown of the media, Putin made all the efforts to destroy any opposition signs in Russia. You know, Alexei Navalny is behind bars, and I'm very much afraid of Navalny's destiny and Navalny's life. But unfortunately, the opposition is in exile, and almost all of the opposition activists destroyed, you know?

GF: Galina Timchenko, thank you so much for your time today. I wish you and your staff well. Be safe.

GT: To survive. To survive.

GF: To survive.

GT: For us, it's survival and… and hope.

GF: Be safe. Thank you.

GT: Thank you so much. Thank you.

CH: Galina Timchenko is the executive editor of the independent Russian news outlet Meduza. We reached her in Riga, Latvia.

[Music: Ambient]

Bell Island Doctor

Guest: Ken Kavanagh

CH: It's like something out of a movie. It’s almost exactly like something out of a movie: what residents of Bell Island, Newfoundland accomplished happened in an actual movie. Just like in the 2013 film, The Grand Seduction, the small town banded together to try to lure a popular family doctor to the community. But in Bell Island's case, they were trying to convince Dr. Firas Ayar to reverse his decision to leave. And it worked: Dr. Ayar has given himself a second opinion -- and agreed to return to the island, at least temporarily. Ken Kavanagh lives on Bell Island. And that's where we reached him.

GF: Ken it turns out you're a pretty good seducer?

KEN KAVANAGH: [hearty laughter] It might seem that way, but I really don't want to take that much credit. I think perhaps Dr. Ayar was seduced in the first place by being on Bell Island and being a doctor for seven years here. And when he did leave, I think he already was kind of enamoured to the place. But certainly, my little campaign, I think, certainly made a little bit of a difference in the situation.

GF: All right. So for… for our listeners that don't remember the beginning of the story, take us back. When and why did Dr. Ayar decide he was going to leave?

KK: So it's a small island community of about 2,500 people. And traditionally, we've been served by… by three doctors here. So when we started 2021, we actually had three doctors that were working here. By the middle of the year, somewhere around June and July, one doctor left. Around that very same time, Dr. Ayar put in his notice, and he actually left on September 30th of 2021. And then, the gentleman who was here and had been appointed as the chief medical officer for the island, he left officially on December 31st. So in a matter of six or seven months, we lost all three doctors and have been without one since.

GF: So that's when you got busy and started a campaign, right?

KK: Yes. And I'll tell you where it really started from. I had my last appointment. Dr. Ayar was… was also my family doctor. So my last appointment, face-to-face appointment, with him was in the middle of December, just a few weeks before he left. And I… I just simply said to him, point blank, so you want to leave Bell Island? And he said, well, no, not really, Ken. I don't want to leave Bell Island. I really have enjoyed my time here. I like the people, I like the community and I like the patients I'm dealing with. So, that kind of threw me off. And I didn't say much else to him at that point.

GF: So, why was he leaving then, Ken.

KK: I mean, I know I've heard rumours in the community about workplace conditions and just being overloaded with work, which is really not atypical in rural areas of Newfoundland and Labrador, where there may be sometimes just a single doctor and the workload is just too great. And I mean, doctors have a right to have a quality of life. So I can't really narrow down the exact situation as to why he left. But he did leave, and I did find out a little time later that he was interested in coming back again, which is when I decided to set up a Facebook page called The Bell Island Grand Seduction.

GF: [laughing] Now, have you… did you have a Facebook page before, or is this --

KK: You know something? I've never been on Facebook. [GF chuckles] I'm on Twitter, and I'm… I'm quite an active person on Twitter.

GF: Umm-hmm.

KK: But I never bothered with Facebook, but I understood it in my community, a lot of people are on Facebook. So, I had to use the… the weirs and the knowledge and know-how of my son who set it up for me. [GF chuckles] And set up a wonderful Facebook page with that title, The Bell Island Grand Seduction, and I was setting it up for two reasons. One, I certainly wanted to… for Dr. Ayar to hear from afar that people did respect and appreciate his time here. But I also wanted it to be a reminder to Eastern Health that we wanted him… him back. So, I thought there might be a few hundred people who would join the Facebook page and make a few comments, but the response was just overwhelming.

GF: What kinds of things were people saying?

KK: Some were just simply saying, yes, Dr. Ayar, we do… we do miss him and we'd like to see him back here. What really caught me off guard was the number of people who had very lengthy personal posts, and would actually comment on their medical situation and the way that Dr. Ayar treated them, not only in terms of the medical situation, but in terms of the compassion and empathy that he… and the manner that he… that he showed these… these clients. But personal stories. And that's what really caught me off guard. And it wasn't just a few. Like I said, there were hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of them. So, it really caught on fast. And I have to say, hats off to my own community, to people here who use Facebook for such a positive outcome.

GF: How instrumental were all those messages in his decision to come back?

KK: I do know that… that I'm sure Eastern Health was watching the Facebook page. And so, I would certainly like to think that the Facebook page highlighted the issue. It brought attention and focus to the issue. As well, it's certainly let Dr. Ayar know that we wanted him back here and that we revered and respected his work here. And I can only assume that that had some impact on Eastern Health.

GF: Now, he's not coming back for good, right? As I understand, he's coming back for a number of weeks?

KK: No, that's… that's exactly right. So what he's doing, and actually, that's how Dr. Ayar came to be here for seven years. He started off here with, I guess, in the medical profession what they refer as… as a locum.

GF: Um-hmmm.

KK: So he's coming here for an 11-week locum. My understanding from Eastern Health, from a communication I had from someone, that while he is here, Eastern Health will continue discussions with him and hopefully come to some more permanent arrangement. So, we still have some work to do. I'm not going to take down the Facebook page yet, and I'm telling my community not to relax. We have him here for now, but we have some work to do to make sure we support him in… in coming to an agreement with Eastern Health for a more longer term arrangement here. And I think the key thing for me and for the community is we want Dr. Ayar back here. He's coming back for 11 weeks. He cannot replace and take on the workload of three previous doctors. And he has every right to be properly compensated, but also to have a quality of life while he lives in this rural community.

GF: So some things are going to have to improve for him if you… if you're hoping to seduce him into staying longer?

KK: For sure. And I know there are other groups on the island that are going to become part of the process here, making sure that we show him the support and that we let Eastern Health know that whatever it takes to keep him here on a more longer-term basis, we certainly want it done.

GF: All right. Well, good luck. Are you a baker by any chance?

KK: No, not really. But we do have a bakery here. It's a co-op bakery on the island.

GF: Well, maybe somebody ought to do some baking.

KK: [hearty laughter] For sure! We'll do whatever it will take. I mean, I guarantee we're not relaxing on our laurels yet. We're… we're glad to have him back, but we've got to keep him here now.

GF: Great to talk to you, Ken. Thank you.

KK: Great talk to you and thank you for your interest.

GF: Bye-bye.

KK: Bye.

CH: We reached Ken Kavanagh on Bell Island, Newfoundland.

[Music: Is this disco?]

Dwarfism Bike

Guest: Steve Scott

CH: As the snow starts to melt in parts of the country, a memory begins to emerge from the block of ice in your head: you might have a bike. If you do, it's fun to realize you'll soon be able to ride it again. If you can remember where you left it. In the U.K. this year, a whole new group of people is about to try out a whole new kind of bike. A company called "Islabikes" has created a bicycle designed specifically for people with dwarfism. Steve Scott helped consult on the design. He's an ambassador for the U.K.'s Dwarf Sports Association, and we reached him in Altrincham, near Manchester.

GF: Mr. Scott, can you… can you describe for us what this new bicycle looks like?

STEVE SCOTT: It looks like an ordinary bike, but just smaller. So, it's… to the eye, it's a bike that's smaller rather than anything too radical. But the… as a dwarf, I can get on and off it very easily. I don't have to jump on it to get on. So it's an ordinary bike. It's got 20 or 24-inch wheels, depending on what size you want. And everything about it looks like an ordinary bike. Now, the reason that's different for us is we've not had that before. We've had to have bikes that have been adopted or have bits lopped off or added on. Whereas this bike, it looks great, and it's a standard bike for us, for dwarfs, people of restricted growth. Disproportionate dwarfs generally have a standard-sized torso. So if I was sitting across the table from you, we would be the same height. But our limbs are a lot shorter and not necessarily as straight. They tend to be bowed.

GF: And because of that, the options available to you before this specially designed bike were… were difficult to ride, I guess?

SS: Very difficult. When you are a young child, there are plenty of very young children's bikes around, but as you get older, sort of older children through to young teenagers and young adults, nothing's available unless a young adult rides a bike with Barbie stickers on it. [GF chuckles] You know, so they're riding a children's bike. And that's happened, but it doesn't have to happen now.

GF: You grew up cycling, I understand?

SS: Yes, yeah.

GF: In large part, thanks to your father. How did… how did he accommodate your needs?

SS: He wasn't a DIY specialist. He was just a very passionate dad. He… you know, all my friends had bikes, so we would get a bike and literally lop bits off the saddle's length, change the height of the stem and shorten the cranks, which is not easy. And it's not necessarily what a child wants. But that's what he did. And the other thing I learnt, I learnt quite quickly how to balance on the bike because the bikes I had, I couldn't put my feet down. So, I would regularly try to balance. And, of course, you don't always succeed with that, and you fall off, but you get used to that.

GF: So you persevered because of your dad.

SS: Yes.

GF: But I'm guessing a lot of other people in your situation may not have, just because of the difficulties?

SS: No, one is the difficulties in the mobility issues and, two, you do need someone to help you. And before we developed the relationship with Islabikes, there weren't that many options at all.

GF: So tell me about this relationship. How did it come about?

SS: It's been going for about four or five years. And what Islabikes have done -- and as I understand it, always done -- they produce really good quality bikes for young teenagers. And quite a lot of our members of the Dwarf Sports Association were buying the bikes. And they were not that difficult to adapt. And Islabikes picked up that quite a few people with dwarfism were contacting them to buy their bikes, and they became used to doing these adaptations, the crank length for one.

GF: Mm-hmm.

SS: So they contacted Dwarf Sports. I tend to be… I was the chair at the time, but I also… I still lead on cycling for Dwarf Sports. So that's how they got to know me. And we organized a cycling event in the Lake District in the U.K., And Isla Rowntree and some people from Islabikes joined us. And that was the beginning of a strong relationship. And we worked with them during the prototype phases. They were great. They gave us a couple of bikes to get people to try out for a few months at a time and then pass on to someone else to try out. So we had a lot of people testing them and feeding back. And we learnt quite a lot in that the obvious things. The bikes needed to be smaller; need to be nearer to the ground. The traditional cross bar on a… on a bike, both the male and female, isn't on the Islabike. They've developed a different kind of tubing to do that. But also, the handlebars need to be slightly closer, and the brakes, the brake levers, need to be closer to the handlebars, if that makes sense? Because our… the reach of our fingers is a lot shorter than yours. So when you're trying to pull the brake, if you're at maximum stretch, you haven't necessarily got the strength to pull the brake hard enough to slow the bike down or stop the bike. And they took all that into account.

GF: And has all this… has all this engineering made the bikes more expensive, though? How accessible will they be to… to… to the average person?

SS: They're a market bike, and they will be a market price. What we've been looking at… so yes, they're not as cheap as a bike if you walk into a mainstream shop. But they are more accessible. We have a system in Dwarf Sports where we are buying bikes off Islabikes, loaning them out to families, and if they want to keep it, then they can agree a way of paying Dwarf Sports for it or return it after they've had a go.

GF: Right. Especially for… for younger people, dwarfs, do you think this is going to open new doors? New horizons?

SS: I would think it will definitely open new doors. If you can think of children, what they want to do is play with their mates in the street or in the park. And lots of things dwarfs do, they can do with their friends, and it's no different. But a few things, it's just tricky. One of which is cycling, particularly as the children get older. You know, they want to go cycling off to a local town or out somewhere to the coast, and they've not always been able to do that. This now opens up so individuals can do that. And it's a greater opportunity.

GF: Right. Well, thank you. Thanks for telling us about it today. Bye-bye.

SS: All right. Cheers. Bye-bye.

CH: Steve Scott is an ambassador for the U.K.'s Dwarf Sports Association. We reached him in Altrincham, just outside of Manchester.

[Music: Indie rock]

South Korean President’s Deepfake

CH: Of all the dirty tricks available to political campaigns, "deepfakes" are probably the most insidious. A "deepfake", as you probably know by this point, is a video that's been manipulated to make it look like someone is saying something they didn't say. And yes, experts can debunk them. But if you release a video in which your opponent appears to be saying "I hate babies," the damage will already be done. Well, in a shocking development, Yoon Seok-Youl -- the man who was elected president of South Korea yesterday -- used deepfakes during his campaign. Even more shocking, voters were fully aware of that. And even more shocking still: they were deepfakes of Mr. Yoon himself. His campaign had a problem: the candidate came off as sour, cranky, and deeply anti-feminist. Probably just because, you know, he is those things. So his staff convinced him to spend some time recording all kinds of sentences and phrases, and being filmed in front of a green screen. They then fed all that stuff into a computer -- and used it to create videos of A.I. Yoon. A more light-hearted, more charming fake version of the real guy. That is weird. But even weirder is this thing the head of the A.I. Yoon team told the Wall Street Journal. Quote: "We want voters to see the human side of Yoon, not the stern image he projects on television." Unquote. You heard me right. The un-human Yoon is more human than the human Yoon. And the un-human Yoon's humanity helped the human Yoon become president. And that's real news which is also fake news.

[Music: Jazz]

Part 2: Roman Abramovich Sanctions, Extinct Bat Found

Roman Abramovich Sanctions

Guest: Tom Keatinge

CH: The U.K. says it's finally coming down hard on a group of high-profile oligarchs. Today, the British government announced new sanctions against seven Russians, including Roman Abramovich. The owner of the Chelsea Football Club will have his assets frozen and be banned from travel. Authorities say Mr. Abramovich and the other sanctioned Russians have a collective net worth of around 25 billion dollars. Tom Keatinge is the Director of the Centre for Financial Crime & Security Studies at The Royal United Services Institute. We reached him in London.

GF: Mr. Keating, how exactly are these new sanctions going to affect Roman Abramovich and his business interests in the U.K.?

TOM KEATINGE: Well, he's probably the most famous individual in this class of oligarch because, of course, he owns Chelsea Football Club. He's owned it for probably 20 years, and he has… his money has successfully bought and brought it tremendous prizes and competition success. So, there's a lot of concern, I think, in the football community about whether matches will continue? Whether people can buy tickets? It's really a very, very high-profile action by the British government.

GF: He had said earlier that he intended to sell the football club, didn't he?

TK: Yes. I mean, look, individuals who will have suspected that they are in the crosshairs of Western governments have been slathering and sliding as best they can to try and move assets and to position themselves as far away from Putin's war as possible. But the bottom line is that these are individuals who have benefited for years from proximity to Vladimir Putin. And now, they're finding that actually, that proximity is a curse.

GF: Yes, exactly. What does it say to you that it took so long, though, for the U.K. government to actually take the moves against him specifically?

TK: Well, I mean, this is a chicken that has taken 25 years to come home to roost. Money has been coming to London from Russia since the collapse of the Soviet Union since the Russian financial crisis in 1998. Not all of that money, of course, is dirty, but a great deal of it is. And successive governments have just failed to grapple with this issue, and the current government has, I think, frankly been negligent.

GF: Aside from the soccer club that you mentioned, what are the other impacts that this could have?

TK: Obviously, he and others are business owners. The ripple effects can be quite considerable into the companies and the employees of those companies. So, I think governments around the world will need to look very carefully at the impact of these sanctions because what we don't want to do, obviously, is to cause ourselves trouble. We will cause ourselves trouble because of the energy price rises and so on. But we need to be looking to mitigate that trouble without, of course, offering these individuals a way out.

GF: The government has come under considerable pressure to take this move. And, of course, this is all predicated on the notion that oligarchs like Mr. Abramovich actually have influence with Mr. Putin now and can actually in some way, I guess, mitigate some of the damage that is being done. Do they really have that kind of influence now?

TK: They might do, but it's important to note that the sanctions are put on them because they have benefited from or they support the Kremlin. And, of course, we hope that putting pressure on them makes them whisper in his ear that, you know, he has gone way too far. It's disastrous what he's done. He needs to stop. He needs to reverse. I think that's a long shot. But the reason they are sanctioned in the law in the U.K., at any rate, is because they have benefited from or they support the Russian government.

GF: I mean, is there a danger here of getting caught up in this… this effort to… to, you know, punish the oligarchs and losing sight of what the real game is?

TK: I mean, certainly that would be the criticism that I would make of the British government. The British government has made sanctioning oligarchs a metric by which it wants to be judged. Actually, the metric should really be the extent to which we've frozen the assets of the Central Bank of Russia, for example, and frozen the assets of other critical banks. We've closed the airspace. We've closed ports. And then, of course, there is the elephant in the room, if you like, which is what are we doing to restrict the ability of the Russian economy to fuel itself? What are we doing to stop oil exports, to stop gas exports? That's much, much more challenging. But that has to be the focus in the coming weeks.

GF: So is this a bit of a diversion then, do you think? Not wanting to deal with those issues that now dealing with the oligarchs is easier?

TK: I don't think it's a diversion. I think basically, the British government painted itself into a corner by saying we've got a hit list of 500 names. And so, inevitably, the press and people like me are saying, well, where are those names? Why have you not acted on them?

GF: We've heard a lot in the last couple of weeks about yacht seizures and travel bans. When it comes to Mr. Abramovich, I understand he has both Portuguese and Israeli citizenship and a lot of assets that… that the U.K. can't touch. So is there a danger here that this is really just more symbolism than anything real?

TK: I don't think it's symbolism. I certainly think that European partners will be looking at the action today and thinking, right, well, can we match that? I'm sure the United States will be doing likewise. But let's not forget, whilst, you know, liquid assets and yachts and planes can perhaps fly away out of the reach of the British and other governments, you can't leave a football club worth many billions of dollars offshore overnight. You can't move property worth tens, hundreds of millions of dollars, offshore overnight. So, you know this clearly will have a… have an impact. And for a British government that has been criticized for not taking action against oligarchs, I'm sure they'll be quick to tell us that they were the first to sanction Roman Abramovich.

GF: Do you know where he is now? Has he had anything to say about this?

TK: Not that I have… I have seen. And what is interesting, though, is that he used to have what we call a golden visa in the U.K. -- a visa which basically you get if you invest enough money in the U.K. And for various reasons, that wasn't renewed a few years ago. That's the point at which he took Israeli citizenship. So he may well be in Israel. But I do not know.

GF: You say that this is… the government was painted into a corner. They have finally taken action that people have been calling on them for years to take. Do you think this is going to change practices going forward? London has… has traditionally been very welcoming to… to wealthy people from repressive governments over the years. Are we witnessing now something fundamentally changing?

TK: So it's really important not to conflate sanctioning oligarchs with cleaning house. And the government is now trying to do the latter as well. They introduced earlier this week a bill called the Economic Crime Bill, and that is introducing some legislative changes and reforms that are long, long overdue to try and help clean up the U.K. So a slow journey is beginning. A journey that should have started years and years ago, but at least that journey is now starting. There is cross-party pressure on the government to accelerate that journey. And so, yes, maybe it is the beginning of cleaning up the U.K., but there's a long way to go.

GF: All right. Thanks very much for telling us about it today, Mr. Keatinge.

TK: Thank you.

CH: Tom Keatinge is the Director of the Centre for Financial Crime & Security Studies at The Royal United Services Institute. He's in London.

[Music: Ambient]

Ottawa Interim Police Chief

CH: It's now been three weeks since a massive police operation in Ottawa cleared out much of the so-called Freedom Convoy. But for people in the capital, the question of why it took so long to get the protesters out is as fresh as ever. It's a question Steve Bell is getting a lot. Since Ottawa police chief Peter Sloly stepped down, he's been serving as interim chief. Mr. Bell spoke to our colleagues at CBC Ottawa.

SOUNDCLIP

STEVE BELL: You saw as it unfolded, the planning that… that needed to go into it, the number of resources we needed to get here to actually conduct it in a safe way. But that doesn't make up for all the time. And there are many questions internally. Our members are asking the same questions. We're all asking the same questions. Why? Why did it take us so long to actually identify our needs and actually move the plan ahead? That's why it's so important that we engage in this review. The protests that occurred, the illegal occupation of our streets, is something that has never been seen across Canada, actually never been seen across North America. It was unprecedented. It was a brand new style, method, tactic in protesting that we hadn't seen before. We now know... and other police services as well are learning from this. We actually have to change how we approach protests like that.

HALLIE COTNAM: Hmm.

SB: The review and the inquiries that are going to happen are going to be so important to us and so valuable to us to actually start to pull that information out so we can flag some of the signs that in… in future protest demonstrations will be able to identify some of that so that something like that never occurs again.

HC: CBC has reported that several Ottawa police officers donated to the convoy protest. You have said that that's under investigation and that all disciplinary options are on the table. Were you aware of support for the protests amongst the rank and file?

SB: There… there is a firm commitment from myself and from this organization that if anybody contributed to the ongoing illegal occupations of our street, we will investigate it fully and use all avenues we can for discipline. What I can tell you --

HC: But were you aware that there was this group… that there was this percentage, and it's unclear how much? That there was this percentage of the police force that really supported what the protesters were standing for and were unlikely to pursue police action against people they fundamentally agreed with?

SB: So, I think… I think it's important to… to… yes, we were in early days, we started investigations into… into individuals who may have been involved. Those will continue. I think it's really important to note that it's a very, very small number. It's really important that we fully investigate those. But the vast, vast majority of our members and members from across the country did everything they could to remove those people from our streets. And you saw the professionalism they had as they executed it.

CH: That was Ottawa's interim police chief, Steve Bell, speaking with the CBC's Hallie Cotnam.

[Music: Ambient]

Extinct Bat Found

Guest: Winifred Frick

CH: Bats are phenomenally skilful at staying hidden. Sometimes too skillful. For years, the Hill's horseshoe bat has proven extremely elusive to conservationists. The critically endangered species had not been seen in the wild for 40 years and, at one point, was presumed extinct. But now scientists say the bat is actually still hanging on, upside-down probably, in a rainforest in Rwanda. Winifred Frick is the chief scientist at Bat Conservation International. She's one of the people who made the discovery about the Hill's horseshoe. We reached her in Santa Cruz, California.

GF: Ms. Frick, take us back to that day in Rwanda when you and your colleagues stumbled, I guess, upon this bat?

WINNIFRED FRICK: Yeah, we were there as part of a 10-day expedition, and we were looking everywhere for the species because it had not been seen for 40 years. That was the whole reason we were there was to try to find this very rare bat and determine whether it was there, still alive and surviving in the very heart of Nyungwe National Park or whether it had gone extinct. And so, we would set up our harp traps, which are a special kind of trap that you can put along a forest trail. And the bats… it looks almost like a harp. That's why they call the harp trap. And the bats flutter as they fly down the forest trail. They can flutter into the monofilament lines, and then they go into a bag at the bottom, so they don't get injured or anything, and they just wait there quietly until we can come and check. And so, there was one night where we went and walked up to the trap, and there was this really unusual-looking bat. We knew right away it was something really special. And so, we immediately went back to where we had all of our books and keys and our callipers and started measuring everything to tell whether or not it might actually be Hill's horseshoe bat. And, in fact, it was. It had all of the features. It's described as really distinct. And before we let it go, as we let it go back into the forest, we also recorded its echolocation call because the last time anybody had ever seen the species was 1981, and we didn't have a record of what they sound like with their echolocation. So we got this phenomenal recording of it as it flew back into the forest, and that's allowing us to keep monitoring them.

GF: All right. Well, take us back then. And, first of all, describe what… what does this Hill's horseshoe bat look like?

WF: Well, Hill's horseshoe bat is part of a group of bats called the horseshoe bats. And so, they have these unusual facial features that there's a flap of skin sort of around the… at the nose and above the mouth that has… looks just the shape of a horseshoe. It's this semi-circular round feature, and then they have different kinds of flaps and folds of their… their nose and face. And so, that's often how you identify the species is looking at sort of the shape and the length of all the different parts of that, what we call the nose leaf because it almost looks like a leaf-like structure.

GF: And why did you believe or why were they believed to be extinct?

WF: Well, they're incredibly rare, and nobody had seen this species since 1981. So that's 40 years ago. I was still in kindergarten when the last time somebody saw this species. [both chuckle] And… and… and, in fact, only two had ever been identified before, one in 1964 and again in 1981. And although Nyungwe National Park is one of the national parks and very well protected by the Rwandan government, and there's a real commitment in Rwanda to its biodiversity and its national parks, there was a lot of deforestation in the country in the 1980s and 1990s. And so, we were really concerned that deforestation had led to a loss of habitat that could have led to the extinction of the species. But we were just so delighted to find that there still is a small population in the very heart of Nyungwe National Park, which is protected by the Rwandan government.

GF: So… so you found one. How big do you think the population is?

WF: It's probably really small. So we actually ended up catching two individuals on the trip, which was amazing, and… but both in the exact… on the exact same trail. And that's really close to where the other two individuals have… were discovered. Again, you know, 40 years ago. So, it seems like they're really… that there's just one small population really like in just one watershed in the middle of this protected forest.

GF: Now, this will happen in 2019, I understand. Why has it taken this long to confirm the existence of this bat?

WF: Well, so one thing is that, you know, we took all the measurements, and we took a small sample of a little bit of skin tissue from the wing to be able to verify the genetics. We let the bats go so that they could go back into the forest and live out their best lives. But we wanted to verify with the genetics with the two… the other two specimens are pickled in museums in Europe. And so, we actually then travelled to Europe to see if we could extract any DNA from those old specimens to compare. Those specimens were either in formaldehyde or were old enough that we weren't able to extract the DNA successfully. That took a long time and some trial and error. So then we had to go see them physically and measure them. And then, the COVID pandemic hit and we… that kind of just delayed everything in being able to then make the announcement now.

GF: Right. Now, are you continuing to follow the bat that you let go?

WF: We can't follow that individual, but we are… so our… originally, our plan was to go back to Rwanda in August of 2020 and… and then we were hoping to go back in August to 2021. And so, hopefully, this year, we'll go. We have future expeditions planned. It's just been in a delay period because of the pandemic.

GF: And how important is it that the Hill's horseshoe bat survives and thrives?

WF: Well, it's one of over 1,400 different species of bats that we know about on planet Earth. It's part of our mammalian biodiversity. It's… I mean, the biodiversity in Nyungwe National Park is part of what makes that place so special. I believe we have, you know, it's incumbent on us to protect all the species that we share this planet with. And it's a natural part of those forest ecosystems and consumes insects in that forest and… and roosts in the forests. And it belongs in its natural habitat.

GF: Okay, Ms. Frick. Thanks so much for telling us about it today.

WF: Okay, thank you so much.

CH: Winifred Frick is the chief scientist at Bat Conservation International. She's one of the people that discovered the Hill's horseshoe bat species. We reached her in Santa Cruz, California.

[Music: Jazz]

COVID Relief Pokémon Card.

CH: Russian oligarchs aren't the only ones having their assets seized these days. In the United States, authorities are also busy catching up with people who made fraudulent COVID relief claims. Their forfeitures include Lamborghinis, Rolex watches, designer clothes and -- in one case -- something even harder to come by. The item was purchased by a man in Dublin, Georgia, who applied for a loan to benefit his small business, which he said had 10 employees and annual revenues of $235,000 U.S. Its revenues were, in fact, lower. They were zero U.S. dollars. The business didn't exist. And neither does the mythical creature he bought with his so-called relief money. A dragon-like lizard with teal wings, an orange body, mammalian feet, and a fiery tail. This is a Pokémon character called "Charizard". First-edition Charizard cards are among the rarest Pokémon collectibles out there. And the fraudster spent nearly $58,000 on his. Now, he's been sentenced to three years in prison. And his Pokémon card is in the possession of officials, who admit they weren't really sure what to do with it and, quote, "had to hustle to find someone to give us a valuation." Unquote. That valuation may not be what they'd hoped. Turns out Charizard's worth peaked along with its buyer's luck. Still, the U.S. Marshals did adhere to one important Pokémon principle: gotta catch 'em all.

[Music: Calypso]

Part 3: The Sports Bra Bar, Archive: Octopus Face

FOA: Humboldt Crash Driver

CH: Yesterday, Scott Thomas got some disappointing news. He learned that the driver of the transport truck that killed his son Evan and 15 others from the Humboldt Broncos ice hockey team had lost his first bid to stay in Canada. The Canada Border Services Agency rejected a request from Jaskirat Singh Sidhu to remain in Canada after he has served his eight-year sentence. Now, the Immigration and Refugee Board will decide if he will be deported to India. After the decision was announced, Scott Thomas said he was disappointed but not surprised. Although it may surprise some people that he feels that way. But it's consistent with what he told Carol, last January.

SOUNDCLIP

SCOTT THOMAS: We just think that Mr. Sidhu right from the time he was charged, he pled guilty to all the charges, took the sentence as it was applied in court. It was a precedent setting sentence from Judge Cardinal, very strong and very forceful in the message she put forth. And we just don't think, our family -- and again, I'm just speaking for our family here and myself -- and our family just doesn't think that the deportation part of the sentence should necessarily apply here. My understanding of the law, and maybe I'm naive, is that the deportation part is maybe more for violent crimes. And I've said, well, Mr. Sidhu's crime was criminal. It was violent. He didn't commit a violent crime. He pled guilty to this. You know, I think he's almost zero risk to reoffend. He will never get behind the wheel of a vehicle like this again. And he is very remorseful.

CO: You know that other families are not so sympathetic about this, about your idea that he should not be deported, others think that he should be. Another father who lost his son in the crash says he supports his deportation, and he told the Canadian Press he doesn't want the world to think all the families support Mr. Sidhu. What do you say to him?

ST: No question. This is a very divisive issue. And I know for a fact that we're going to lose friends in our Broncos family because of our position. I don't doubt that for a second. You could tell by the range of reactions at the sentencing hearing, the whole scope of emotions that this brings on and none of them. The one thing I've learnt about grief is none of us are right. It's just our own paths. It doesn't make my path any more right than somebody else's. It doesn't make there's more right than mine. This is just what our family needs to do to give ourselves the best chance to get through this, to have some semblance of a life to not have this overwhelm us for the rest of our life. This is how we have to deal with it. And this is how we're choosing to. How other families choose to deal with it, that's their prerogative.

CO: But if you stand to lose friends in the Broncos community and support and that connection, why would you be willing to pay that price?

ST: Ultimately, to me, this is about my moral and mental health and my family's mental health, and for us to be able to move forward and do the best we can for our son and his legacy, keep our son's presence intact and do the best we can for him. You know, I think this gives our family our best chance to stay together, best chance for our family, our best chance to move forward in a meaningful way and contribute to society in a meaningful way in our son's name. We just think that one of the highest moral objectives you can achieve is the ability to forgive and the ability to show compassion. And in this instance, we're being tested to the ultimate hilt, no question about it. And I mean, if these were different circumstances, if this wasn't a tragedy, if his intent was different, we might be having a much different conversation. But just in these circumstances, this is the best that we feel we can do to move forward and have some type of positive life for the rest of my 50 years on this planet.

CO: What do you think your son Evan would say about your support for Mr. Sidhu?

ST: [long sigh] I think he'd be proud of our response -- I think he would. When our kids were little, we always told our kids to try and put ourselves in someone else's shoes if there was something going on and try to teach them empathy. And so, you know, I'd like to think he'd feel proud of us, our ability to feel empathy for other people. Don't get me wrong, this tears us apart. We miss him horribly. I cry every day for my son. But I think he's looking down on us right now from wherever he is with a smile on his face and he's content.

CH: That was Scott Thomas, the father of Evan Thomas, speaking to Carol last January about why he thinks Jaskirat Singh Sidhu should remain in Canada after his sentence is complete.

[Music: World]

Lots Of Sheep Born

CH: Spring is always a busy time of year on a sheep farm. And Lorraine and John Buchanan were ready for that. This isn't their first rodeo, so to speak. They know how to tell when a ewe is ready to lamb. And what it's like to stay up through the night to help as necessary. But last week, the veteran farmers found their hands fuller than they could have predicted after two back-to-back births.

SOUNDCLIP

LORRAINE BUCHANAN: The first ones arrived on Friday, last Friday. And the ewe had five lambs, and we thought, oh, she's having twins, that's pretty good. And we went out to the fields to check our other sheep and came back, and she'd had a sixth one. And then, the next sextuplet happened, I think, about three days later, and John found them when he went down in the morning, and they were sort of scattered all over the barn. One of the other ewes who was about to lamb had stolen one, [RJ chuckles] and they were here and there and everywhere. And he got them back all together. And so, three of them are with that mom, two are in the bottle pen, and there's one that we gave to another ewe who lost her lamb. So they're all… they're all doing well.

JOHN BUCHANAN: It's a pretty rare thing for us to get that many. I knew she was pretty round. I thought she'd have three… three, maybe four, but to get six is… is quite a number.

ROHIT JOSEPH: Lorraine, how many lambs does a sheep usually have at a time?

LB: Most often, two or three with our flock because we got a prolific breed, Finish landries, and they can… they're the ones that have high numbers. It's not unusual for them to have three or four. And we cross-breed to a type of dairy sheep called the East Friesian, and they have lots of milk. So they sort of the ideal sheep. They have lots of milk and lots of lambs. But most of… I mean, if we took a whole flock average with a different sheep we have, I'd say we're averaging two and a half.

JB: These little ones, they’re pretty well looked after and sorted out. We're still having 12 or more births a day, so we're very busy with all of that.

RJ: [chuckle] Wow!

JB: As well as at night, yeah.

RJ: When does that stop?

JB: It'll slow down in about 10 days, I'd say. And then there'll be the stragglers who’ll carry on for another month or so.

CH: B.C. sheep farmers Lorraine and John Buchanan, speaking with the CBC's Rohit Joseph about welcoming two sets of sextuplets this month.

[Music: Lullaby]

The Sports Bra Bar

Guest: Jenny Nguyen

CH: You want to watch the game between the LA Sparks and the Indiana Fever with some friends. And you know the perfect place -- so you head in and grab a table at the Sports Bra. That was not an unfortunate slip of the tongue. The Sports Bra is a real sports bar. Or at least it will be next month. It's the brainchild of Jenny Nguyen -- and its television will only show women's sports. We reached Jenny Nguyen in Portland, Oregon.

GF: Jenny, a sports bar that only plays women's sports. Where did that idea come from?

JENNY NGUYEN: You know, it was the NCAA women's basketball finals. So, like, the biggest game of the year, really. And about a dozen of us rolled into the Sports Bra. And you know, we thought for sure it would be on at least one TV, and it wasn't. So, you know, we pushed some tables together, we flagged down a server, and she's like, oh, no problem, I can change the channel. And so, she was able to change, like, the smaller TV in kind of corner of the bar. And it wasn't a big deal, you know, because again, we were kind of used to it at that point. And so we proceed to watch this game, and it was like the best game I'd ever seen. It was a comeback from behind and then a last-second three-pointer to win. And it was just magic. And, you know, our whole table erupted. And, you know, I remember jumping up and down and then looking around the bar and realizing that no one else was watching our game, so they were just looking at us like we were crazy. [both laughing] So, yeah, so we, you know, we had a really great time, and we celebrated. And then, as we were leaving, we were in the parking lot saying our goodbyes and stuff. And I remember being like, oh man, that was such a great game. And someone else is like, yeah, you know, it was. But it would have been so much better if the sound had been on. [GF chuckles] And it was kind of that aha moment of like, wow, have we really gotten so used to, you know, not experiencing women's sports in, like, its full capacity that, you know, that's something as important as having the sound on is, you know, overlooked, really?

GF: Yeah.

JN: And I think as we were leaving the parking lot, I had said that it was a total joke like nothing meant behind it. I had said the only way we'll ever get to watch a women's sporting event, like, in its full glory, is if we had our own place, you know?

GF: And, in a couple of weeks, you're going to have your own place.

JN: Exactly! [laughing]

GF: a place called the Sports Bra. Now explain… explain the title to me.

JN: Sure. So just like, either the day after a couple of days after, I had made that joke about opening our own place, I came up with the name. And it just… it's so obvious. I feel like it's so easy. You know, you just take the sports bar, and you switch it around a little bit. And you know, I love puns and, like, alliteration and things like that.

GF: Oh, you're on the right program. [Both laugh]

JN: Yeah. So it was like a really easy, like, link to make that connection. And the tagline is, we support women.

GF: Right.

JN: So, it makes sense.

GF: So when people walk into the Sports Bra in a couple of weeks, what… what do you want them to experience? How is this going to be different than other sports bars they may have been in?

JN: Sure. You know, honestly, I think, you know, same with the title of the… the name of the bar, I want it to feel so familiar and very traditional. I want it to feel like nothing has changed. But upon closer inspection… you know, because I have people walk by and they're like the sports bar, like, what's the big deal? Because they didn't even see that the r and the a are switched around. And I kind of want that same feeling when people come in. Like, I want it to feel just like, you know, your regular sports bar. And then when you sit down, you realize, Oh, everything on TV is women's sports. Or, oh, these flags are for women's teams. Or, you know, all these athletes that are… that have pictures and autographs up on the wall are all female athletes. So it's kind of like that slow realization.

GF: Sports were really important to you, I think, growing up, right?

JN: Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, I… I picked up a basketball when I was five and just wanted to dribble, like, everywhere. And I just never really stopped doing that. I play on a league now. My team is called the Golden Girls because we're all over 40, and we're in a league with a bunch of girls that are, like, fresh out of college. So it's really hilarious. But yeah, I played basketball my whole life, and it was just, like, how I found my footing, you know? How I found my friends. How I felt like I belonged was on the court. And almost everybody I know or have association with now is either through basketball or indirectly through basketball. You know, a friend of a friend through basketball. My girlfriend and I, we met each other playing pickup basketball here in Portland 12 years ago. And so, you know, it's just… it has weaved in and out of my… my life.

GF: What kind of reaction have you received?

JN: It has been overwhelmingly positive. I mean, I… you know, an ideal lives in your mind for a few years, and you just think, oh yeah, of course, I think it's a great idea, but you never know what it'll be like when you release it out into the world. And when they did, it was really scary. And then, just almost immediately, people have been so supportive. I've heard probably thousands of stories by now from strangers who have told me about, you know, how they've been living their whole life waiting for a place like this. Or they're so glad that, you know, they can raise a daughter and have a place like this for them to take them to. And just like story after story after story fills up my mailbox, and it's… it's just… I had no idea that it would have the impact that it has, even… even before we open our doors.

GF: Do you think there'll be guys, guys who show up too?

JN: Oh, 100 per cent. You know, like I always… I tell people that, you know, the Sports Bra, it's… it's not a sports bar for women. It's a bar for women's sports. So if you are a fan of women's sports, you're welcome here. And just… I think, you know, the community craves a place like this. And also a safe, inclusive environment. I think, you know, you build it with intention, and then the people know that that's what's happening. You know, you can talk about it all you want, but it's really, you know, what you're putting out there, what you know, what you're showing, what the representation that you want to have for the community. And so, yeah, I think… I think it's just a learning process for me too. Like, I don't have all the answers, and I'm very open to hearing about the community about, you know, things that I need to change, the things that we need to work on as a business model and all of those things. So yeah, it's… again, it's the first of its kind. So there's going to be growing pains. [chuckling]

GF: Of course. Well, I wish you the best of luck, Jenny. And we'll… we'll see if it catches on.

JN: Awesome. I really appreciate your time today.

GF: Take care. Bye-bye.

JN: Thank you. Bye-bye.

CH: Jenny Nguyen is the owner of the Sports Bra. She was in Portland, Oregon.

[Music: Music: Ambient]

WPG Ukrainian Woman’s Father

CH: Russia's invasion of Ukraine has split families apart. But it's also Ukrainians, and people all over the world, together to condemn Vladimir Putin's actions. And for Winnipeg resident Karen Robb, it's also helped her connect with her birth father for the first time. Now, with the help of students at her school, she's trying to help her father flee Ukraine. Karen Robb is an educational assistant at Fort Richmond Collegiate. She's been working with Grade 12 student Inga-Kseniia Tkachuk to get her birth father to safety.

SOUNDCLIP

KAREN ROBB: I think that was one of the most surreal moments of my life because you have to understand I've never heard his voice before, and I'm trying to compete with the sound of his voice over the blasts in the background, and I could hear the windows rattling, and it was unnerving. So, you know… but we talked about everything. I got so many questions answered about my life. And we tried to keep it light. But he actually couldn't have any lights on at the time, so I think he was in the bathroom. But you know, it was just… it was so surreal and so wonderful and scary all at the same time.

MARCY MARKUSA: And then, the students started to rally to try to help you and help your dad find a way out?

KR: Well, when it came to the moment where he decided it was time to leave, keep in mind people in Ukraine aren't getting the same information as we are. So they didn't really understand how dire it was because we could see that need to move forward more than they could when they were in Ukraine, especially if they have situations with cell phone use and that. They don't get the information they need. So I knew it was time for him to move, and he… he said, well, I think I've got more time. He was trying to work out his passport issues. So I started to panic because he had sent me a map of the route that he was going to take, to walk out to his daughter’s and then to walk another four hours to the train station.

MM: So let's bring the students in here because they helped you with this rooting very directly. So, Inga, how were you able to help your teacher with communication? And what was it like for you to work with other students to try to help?

INGA-KSENIIA TKACHUK: Yeah. So we Google Maps images open to see we're approximately his shelter was and the train station. I was born in Ukraine, moved to Canada five years ago at the age of 13. So I speak fluently Ukrainian, and I read it. So I read the names of the streets, the bridges, and then I went to my Ukrainian news platform to check if there's any updates on the status of that bridge because it was a big one. And it appeared that it was closed because it's one of the largest bridges in Kyiv, and they were… decided to close it so Russian occupants couldn't get through on the other side.

MM: Karen, what was your reaction to the students rallying in this way to try to help your father?

KR: It was very calming because at that point I was scrambling to think outside the box; how can I get a better map to him? I'm not technology-based. And my first thought was these kids, they know everything. Like, they… they can find satellite maps, they can do all this. So the things that they were able to do in the amount of time that it needed to happen in because, really, it was happening in live time. I had phoned Gary, and he was talking to them saying, no, I can't do this, I can't do that. They were saying this may be a better route. So it was literally happening as happening as we were sort of planning it out. So I was just so impressed by their ingenuity, their knowledge, their capabilities to think at the moment and… and source out a solution. It was amazing. He and his family made it to Krakow, and I was up talking to them most of the night because now they are on a bus making their way to Italy.

CH: Inga-Kseniia Tkachuk and Karen Robb of Winnipeg, talking to Marcy Markusa, host of Information Radio, about their efforts to get Ms. Robb's father out of Ukraine.

[Music: Banjo!!!]

Archive: Octopus Face

CH: Last night, you may have heard our conversation with oceanographer Maira Proietti about a new study that suggests humans are trash. More specifically, the study suggests so much of our trash is floating around the ocean that octopuses have given up and started to live with it. And in it: the research shows they are interacting with our garbage, and in some cases using it as shelter. That story reminded us of another cautionary tale involving the super-intelligent creatures and us humans. In 2019, guest host Piya Chattopadhyay spoke with Jamie Biscelgia, after the Washington angler decided to put a venomous octopus on her face.

SOUNDCLIP

PC: Ms. Biscelgia, why did you put a live octopus on your face?

JAMIE BISCELGIA: It wasn't intentional. Well, it was, but it was a quick response to a picture for a photo contest in a derby that I was in South Sound.

PC: And so tell me more about the circumstances of this picture contest?

JB: Well, it was early in the afternoon still. I had launched my boat out of Fox Island — where I normally launch. And I had noticed that my friends that were in the derby with me, their motor wasn't working. So I put them into another spot. I towed them, so that they could jig fish. And while I was next to them, one of the guys on the boat had caught this Pacific giant octopus — a juvenile. And I decided that I told him that I wanted to keep it for dinner — don't let it go. So I got closer to the boat, and I grabbed it off the hook. And I said well, take my picture with the octopus. So I put it on my face very, very quickly. I had never touched an octopus in my life. I've only seen them at the aquariums. And then, all the sudden, while my friend was taking pictures, they all noticed that he captured the moment that its beak went into my chin.

PC: Tell me in as much detail as you can — and what you can remember — what that octopus felt like, including the bite when its beak went into your chin.

JB: Okay. Well it felt, at first, very you know it's fun and it's interesting and it's just playing. So I'm watching the guys take pictures. And then when its beak entered my chin, it was the most intense pain. It felt like I said a barbed hook. If I tried to release it off my face, I knew I was going to tear skin or flesh away. So I tried to let it settle, and if I did pull it away as a bit me again.

PC: Okay, so once you got this octopus off your face, and took some photos of it, and put it in your cooler. And you're in pain; you're bleeding, right?

JB: Oh yeah. But I'm a strong-willed woman. I'm by myself on a boat. I've got five guys watching me. So I try not to act like anything major is going on. So I grab my towel as it's bleeding, and I just keep it held to my face and go on with fishing.

PC: So I might have gone to the hospital. Did you do that?

JB: Oh, I went to the hospital, but not that day, or not the next day. I had been preparing for this weekend for a long time. So I was in a derby back-to-back. Friday this happened. Saturday was another derby. And then I went home Saturday night after the derby, and woke up with a swollen face. My eyes were swollen; I couldn't see very well out of my left side. Underneath my chin was a large pus pocket. And then the left side of my face was completely paralyzed.

PC: So the octopus didn't just bite you, it is venomous. And I understand you are still recovering.

JB: Yes, I am actually at my favorite restaurant — O'Neill's Bar and Grill in Gig Harbor — and that I have to eat special food with no dairy so that I can take my medications. I'm on three different medications.

PC: This all sounds pretty awful.

JB: Oh yes. It wasn't a good idea. I'm telling everyone. I'm not here to you know try to make myself look good because I know I don't.

PC: Okay, so this all began with you saying there's a photo competition going on. The photo competition, you just wanted the best photo, right? The one that was going to win the competition is what your goal was. Did you enter the competition? Did you win the competition?

JB: They have not chosen the winner quite yet. Next week, the board of the company that put this derby on is going to get together, they're going to go over it, and see whose picture was the best. I'm hoping you know there's a silver lining here, and maybe I'll win something.

PC: Well, please do let us know if you do take the top prize at this photo competition. And I wish you a good recovery. Thank you very much for talking with me.

JB: Thank you. Have a great day.

PC: Bye-bye.

CH: From our archives, guest host Piya Chattopadhyay speaking with Jamie Bischelgia about her decision to put a venomous octopus on her face. And if you want to see photos of Ms. Bischelgia and the octopus, you can find them on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

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March 10, 2022 Episode Transcript

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