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The AIH Transcript For March 8, 2022

[hosts]Gillian Findlay, Chris Howden[/hosts]

GILLIAN FINDLAY: Hello, I'm Gillian Findlay.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden, this is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

GF: On with the onslaught. Russia promised a ceasefire so residents could safely leave the besieged Ukrainian city of Mariupol. But the shelling has continued -- and our guest's parents are in the thick of it.

CH: Giving no quarter. After the Canada Council for the Arts announces it's halting new funding to projects involving Russian and Belarusian artists, its CEO is responding to critics who call that unforgiving approach unforgivable.

GF: The necessary steps. In a lot of places, International Women's Day is about celebrating hard-fought rights. But when our guest took to the streets of Karachi today, she was defending her right to march at all.

CH: Burning questions. A woman from just outside Lytton, B.C. tells us she was thrilled to spend her first night in a new home yesterday. But she wonders why so many are waiting so long for the same relief.

GF: Inslide information. The harrowing tale of three guys who fell asleep in an ice fishing hut in Michigan -- and awoke to find their hut being blown across the frozen lake.

CH: And webcam. When the Joro spider first arrived in Georgia, our guest rushed to take pictures of it — and now, he's published a new paper on the invasive species that really captures its good side.

CH: As It Happens, the Tuesday edition. Radio that guesses it must have a whole bunch of legs up on the competition.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Ukraine: MP On Mariupol, Pakistan Women's March, Lytton Homecoming

Ukraine: MP On Mariupol

Guest: Dmytro Gurin

CH: Today, near Kyiv, there was a brief reprieve from the Russian invasion. A humanitarian corridor opened up, allowing hundreds of civilians to escape the fighting -- and attempt to join the reported two million Ukrainians who've already fled the country. Russian forces had also promised an escape corridor out of the besieged port city of Mariupol -- but Ukraine claims that civilians using it were hit by artillery fire. Dmytro Gurin is a Ukrainian MP whose parents live in Mariupol. We reached him in Ukraine, but we've agreed not to reveal his exact location.

GF: Mr. Gurin, when was the last time you spoke with your parents?

DMYTRO GURIN: It was three days ago, in the morning. I talked with them for like 30 seconds because their phones were very low. And in several hours, I talked with their neighbours, also, like 30 seconds. And they knew that my parents are alive, that my mother is still not in a bad condition, I think, her health. And my father just ran away from artillery gunfire, but he is alive now. And I knew that in… in the building and where my parents live, it's around 240 apartments. Nobody died. A bomb hit the building, but you know, now everybody lives in the basement.

GF: So… so a bomb hit the building that your parents live in?

DG: Yeah, bomb… bomb or artillery. I don't know exactly, but something hit the building.

GF: What do you think it's like for them right now?

DG: I think it's a humanitarian catastrophe, and in two or three days, they see it's already eight days of siege of a half a million city, and they are bombing, like just carpet-bombing residential areas. Because in the districts where I lived during the 15 years I studied in school and university in Mariupol, and it's the Eastern District of Mariupol, so the easiest to bomb for the Russian Army. And there is not any war infrastructure there at all, and never were. So they are just bombing residential areas. And that's the idea of terror. And they want… and they are blocking the city now, you know, to… to people who stayed in the city, to use all the supplies in the city.

GF: There was supposed to be a humanitarian corridor opened for Mariupol this morning. What have you heard happened?

DG: [chuckle] No! It's… it's a… it's a joke. It's not a humanitarian corridor. It's a… it's a… just a joke. Because the first had to be the day before yesterday, and they asked people to get to gather in three spots in the city. And in 30 minutes, these spots for meeting people, they were bombed; they were hit by artillery. So the second day, they tried to make humanitarian corridor, but they continued to… to make artillery bombing on the road. And the road is already mined. And the fields around the city are already mined, like randomly. And today, the humanitarian corridor, they say, Russians say, okay, we will open it. You can do it, like with buses and people. And when the column started, they started to attack from that site. So a column of people, you know, like they opened the road saying, okay, you can go from the city and then attack from… from that side.

GF: You obviously are taking a very personal interest in the city and what's happening there. But what have you heard either from people you've been able to speak with or just generally about what life has been like there? And how people are… are managing to survive?

DG: People live in basements. People prepare food on the open fire near their buildings. I don't know why they get water? I don't know how they decide the problem of toilets? Because there is no water. The sewer is not working. The medicine, like… like everything. I can't… I can't just imagine how we can just survive in these conditions. In two or three days, it will be a real catastrophe. Now, like European partners and NATO countries, they are, you know, discussing just all the time. They're discussing that, oh, we can not close the sky. It's not possible. It will start World War 3. And I'm sorry, what was started 11 days ago? What is it? It's not World War Three? Putin tries to invade and occupy the big 40 million people country, and it's not World War Three?

GF: I mean, what do you make of the arguments? Because this is what the West is… is deliberating and discussing. And we could still make it worse by… by intervening. But do you not accept that argument?

DG: I don't accept this argument because, you know, in… in the West, everybody… everybody forget that Putin is a coward. And the only thing he wants is his life. And the problem is he doesn't have a way back. Because he has now only the way to Hague, to Hague tribunal, and he understands that.

GF: To The Hague. Yeah.

DG: Yeah, yeah, to The Hague. There is, you know, the point that if NATO starts taking part in this conflict like Putin will nuclear bomb in Europe. But in reality, who will realize this decision, this order to bomb a nuclear bomb in Europe? A lot of people have to say yes, to press buttons, to enter codes. Let's ask if all the people in Russia just want to die with Putin?

GF: Do you feel safe where you are? Do you see that the war is… is coming to you? And what are your plans if and when that happens?

DG: Yes, we now… we now are in a safe location. And I come back to Kyiv for plenary sessions of parliament. We are all now ashamed. It's really hard to know that you are safe when everybody, like the millions of people, are not safe. But we are doing here and what we can do, and all of us, we all are in on the war.

GF: Well, I really appreciate you speaking with us today. Please stay safe, and I hope you get in touch with your parents and the news is good.

DG: Thank you very much. It was nice to meet you.

GF: Thank you. Bye-bye.

DG: Bye-bye.

CH: Dmytro Gurin is a Ukrainian MP whose parents live in Mariupol. We reached him in Ukraine, but we have agreed not to reveal his exact location.

[Music: Indie rock]

Zelensky U.K. Speech

CH: It was a rare parliamentary speech that didn't begin with jeers but with a full standing ovation. Today, Ukraine's President, Volodymyr Zelensky, flickered live onto a screen in the packed U.K. House of Commons. It was the first time in history that a foreign leader has addressed MPs in that chamber. Here is some of what he had to say to the assembled lawmakers -- with voiceover English translation.

SOUNDCLIP

TRANSLATOR: Ukraine, we're not looking to have this fall. We are the country that are saving people despite having to fight one of the biggest armies in the world. We have to fight the helicopters, rockets. The question for us now is to be or not to be? Oh no, this Shakespearean question! For 13 days, this question could have been asked. But now, I can give you a definitive answer. It's definitely yes, to be. And I would like to remind you the words that the United Kingdom has already heard. We will not give up, and we will not lose. We will fight till the end, at sea, in the air. We will continue fighting for our land, whatever the cost. We will fight in the forests, in the fields, on the shores, in the streets. We are looking for the help of the civilized countries. We are thankful for this help. Please, increase the pressure of sanctions against this country. And please, recognize this country as a terrorist state. And please, make sure that our Ukrainian skies are safe. Please, make sure that you do what needs to be done and what is stipulated by the greatness of your country. Best of all, to Ukraine and to the United Kingdom.

[Sound: A standing ovation]

CH: That was Ukraine's President, Volodymyr Zelensky, speaking by video to MPs in the U.K. House of Commons today.

[Music: Acoustic guitar and violin]

Pakistan Women's March

Guest: Sheema Kermani

CH: In some parts of the world today, International Women's Day was marked with cheesy, corporate emails referring to "she-roes". But in Pakistan, women in cities like Lahore, Islamabad, and Karachi took to the street in droves to celebrate -- even though they faced intense opposition from conservative groups. The marches -- known as the Aurat March -- began five years ago. And since then, there have been many efforts to shut them down. Sheema Kermani is one of the founders of the march. We reached her in Karachi.

GF: Sheema, I know you've just gotten home from the Women's Day March in Karachi. Tell me what it was like.

SHEEMA KERMANI: Oh, it was magical. It was an amazing energy. This was our fifth march that we've done in Karachi, and it's been increasing every year. And this time, it was phenomenal. I think there were more than 10,000 women, including men, some men there. And also, inclusive of trans people and all religions, multi-Language, multi-ethnic and the most exciting part was… was the fact that we managed to do it in the area of the city, which is like mainstream, where most political parties have their big gatherings. So it was a huge ground. And then, we marched on the main road of the Karachi city, where… on which I think women in this number have never marched before. So it was, I would say, a historical moment for us.

GF: Ten thousand people. When you see that kind of number compared to where you started out, what do you think?

SK: Yes, it has been increasing. And what it really reflects is that, you know, women in Pakistan, the ordinary woman, they just feel that they must be heard now. That they're not going to be quiet anymore and just put up with whatever we have to face. You know, I mean, it's just a reflection of that kind of a feeling that we are now ready to take over in a sense. [both laughing] I mean, bring out… bring about changes not only within ourselves, but in the whole society around us.

GF: What are the changes that you and the women are demanding now? What are the kinds of issues that you're trying to bring attention to?

SK: Well, this year we… because we had so much time to work in the last two years, this year, we are trying to highlight the compensation that we get for the work that we do. You know, all the work, the labour that women put in, not only the officially recognized work that you're going into a factory or in an office and working, where of course, you still do not get equal wages, but also the labour we put in by running the families, looking after our homes, looking after the elderly, which goes as totally unrecognized, unacknowledged and unpaid labour. And we're saying that at the end of the day, the woman has nothing for herself. There is no retirement pension; there's no social security. There are no health facilities for, you know, for anyone. So, we want to highlight this. That women have the right. And it is the responsibility of the state and the government to provide that social security to every woman in the country. And the other is protection. You know, when… you know that as far as harassment and sexual exploitation is concerned, Pakistan is really low in the ladder. I mean, out of 156, it's… I think it's 154 or something like that. And there's a lot of violence on women. Not only domestic violence but also just violence on the road, emotional violence, mental violence. Physical violence, of course, is there. And you know, when you are kind of desperate to maintain your job and your boss is harassing you, what do you do? There is no… there are no facilities that women can go to report harassment and things like that. So, you know, we're trying to highlight that. And the third thing which we want to bring to people's notice, and this is the first time we picked it up, and that is that women also have a right to rest and leisure.

GF: And as you say, this is your fifth march. But of course, this is Pakistan, and not everyone loves the idea and/or the issues that you're raising. What kind of opposition have you had?

SK: Oh, we had extreme opposition. Like, last year... we've had opposition right from the beginning because, you know, it is an open march. Anyone can come in. Anyone can join us. They bring their own placards; they bring their own slogans on the placards. So there have been a lot of controversy about the kind of placards that women have brought, so that is one issue on which we have been sort of targeted. But last year, when they couldn't find anything, they tried to… they actually manipulated our recordings and put other dialogues… overlapped them with other dialogue. And then, they tried to put blasphemy charges on us. But gratefully, we had the original. And so we said, these are not our voices.

GF: Why do you think this makes some people so angry?

SK: Well, you… and this year, the minister of religious affairs actually wrote an open letter to the prime minister saying that we should be banned from holding these marches because we create obscenity, according to him. That's according to them. So I think the reason, the issue is about control, you know? When the right-wing and the religious orthodoxy, they feel that women coming out on the road, women talking about getting empowered, women talking about their independence, women talking about their bodies and saying that we have the right to choose about our bodies, that sort of makes them totally go haywire and berserk. [GF chuckles] And they feel that they are losing control, you know? [chuckle] And… and that.. I guess that is what it is all about. And we are! Aurat March is the first movement in Pakistan that's actually shaking the patriarchy and the misogyny that exists in our society.

GF: Yes. Well, thank you. Thank you for all of your efforts, and thank you for telling us about them today.

SK: But can I just add something before I leave?

GF: Sure.

SK: And that is, we are changing the narrative about women. And the dialogue on women's rights and women's issues has now entered the mainstream, you know? And every family, every home, every school, college, everyone's now talking about, well, what is this Aurat March? And why are these women out on the road? So at least whether they agree with us or not, that dialogue has started. And I think that is the very positive thing that is happening.

GF: And that's credit to you and the others. So thank you. And thanks again for talking to us.

SK: Thank you so much. Have a good evening.

GF: Bye-bye.

SK: Okay. Thank you. Bye-bye.

CH: Sheema Kermani is one of the founders of the Aurat March. We reached her in Karachi.

[Music: Vocalization]

Lytton Homecoming

Guest: Tricia Thorpe

CH: On Sunday night, Tricia Thorpe slept in her own home for the first time in eight months. Ms. Thorpe and her husband live just outside of the village of Lytton, B.C. Last June, their home was destroyed in the wildfire. Since then, they've spent months building a new house near where the old one stood. It's now nearing completion. We reached Tricia Thorpe just outside of Lytton.

GF: Tricia, how does it feel to sleep in your own house again?

TRICIA THORPE: [happy laughter] It feels pretty amazing. My husband apparently has had the best sleep he's had, well, probably since the fire. Me, it just feels so good to be home. I'm probably not sleeping as well as him because my mind's going a mile a minute trying to think of all the things we need to do still.

GF: Of course, this is not this… this is a new house, but… because your old house was completely destroyed by the fire. But what did it take to get to this point?

TT: A lot of perseverance, a lot of stubbornness and a lot of help from friends, family and community -- people we've never even met. We have been incredibly lucky that individuals have offered support, be it advice or labour or materials, whatever. We've been extremely fortunate. It's been the individuals that have made this happen for us.

GF: Because for so many in the Liton area, as we know, it has been an excruciatingly slow process, right? Eight months after the fire, and… and they're still not anywhere near where you are. So why… why have you been able to build your new home and they haven't?

TT: Because we fell between the cracks of bureaucracy. We are not village of Lytton, and we're not Lytton First Nations. We fall under Thompson-Nicola Regional District. And when all the orders were issued, and they were talking about toxicity, somehow the powers that be seem to think that the toxicity stopped at the village and First Nation boundaries. So, we didn't have the same restrictions imposed on us. Basically, what happened is we were sent an aerial view of our property to prepare us to go back. And that was it. When we asked about toxicity, if it was safe to go back or whatever, there was no answer. So, nobody replied. So we just came back July 21st, took a look at what needed to be done and just started doing what we had to do to rebuild our lives.

GF: But are you worried about toxicity? If nobody was asking you about that, do you know whether your land has also been contaminated, potentially?

TT: Potentially. We have no idea. It's quite possible the way the winds blow, and it's possible that there's nothing here. I do know that now that they're talking about cleanup, the Thompson-Nicola Regional District is willing to remove what's left of our debris. But in order to do it, there is a waiver that has some pretty strong language in it that basically absolves them of anything past or future. And that they will need to do… I've been told they need to do a soil sample before they can send workers here to take away the debris. Yet, none of that was required when we came back on the property. So, I honestly don't know. But it's a little late to worry about it now.

GF: [laughing] But do you worry about it?

TT: There's so many other things I need to worry about. We really… it is what it is. You know, what are we going to do at this point?

GF: What was it like for you these last eight months? Where did you stay? What was it like being away from home for so long?

TT: We were, again, really fortunate. We were really lucky to stay in… just outside of Kamloops, at a friend's in Barnhartvale, with our dogs. And we were fortunate enough to be able to bring our sheep and our alpaca with us. And at that point, we started rebuilding. We've been working on it… oh, well, we started in July, end of July. And, you know, figuring out what we needed to do with debris and this and that. And we were lucky that Samaritan's Purse came in and gave us a hand with cleaning up. And then, we moved our house site forward from where it had been. And that way, we could be a little more fire safe. And we connected to our existing well and our existing septic this way. And we built a net-zero, fire-smart house.

GF: Just recently, British Columbia announced it was going to give $18 million to help rebuild the village of Lytton, but it's still not clear when those people will actually be able to return. When you… when you think of those people and what they're going through, what do you think?

TT: It's really sad. Like I said, we fell between the cracks of bureaucracy. We were basically ignored. We just did what we… we had to do. But the people that are waiting for that support, it's not there. I mean, that announcement yesterday was… I don't mean to be rude, but it was really a bit of a joke.

GF: There is some irony here, isn't it? I mean, you call it falling through the cracks, but you have worked completely outside the system that has been put in place to try to get people back in their homes. They're not in their homes, but you are.

TT: Yeah, we have learned through all of this not to rely on government and not to rely on the system. I went into the Thompson-Nicola Regional District Resiliency Centre, and I was asked what our plans were? And I said I wasn't sure. It would depend on what kind of government assistance there was. And I was told point-blank that because we were not insured, and it was an insurable event, not to count on any government assistance. We knew we were totally on her own. Anything we did, we had to do by ourselves and with the help of friends and other individuals.

GF: Do you… do you recognize the town of Lytton today? What does it look like?

TT: [sigh] Some people describe it as a war zone. Some people describe it as an open coffin. When you drive through there, nothing has really changed since the fire went through in July. They've cut down a couple of trees, and that's it. Physically, much of it doesn't exist. And I think the spirit is starting to sort of flag a bit, too. Because there's a lot of people that will not be back, it's just taking too long.

GF: Trisha, thanks so much for telling us your story today.

TT: Oh, you're very welcome.

GF: Take care.

CH: Tricia Thorpe lives just outside of the village of Lytton, B.C. That's where we reached her.

[Music: Banjo!!!]

Part 2: Ukraine: Canada Council Arts Funding, Invasive Spiders

Ukraine: Canada Council Arts Funding

Guest: Simon Brault

CH: From liquor stores pulling Russian vodka -- to the heated international debate over what to do about Russian oil and gas -- the responses to Vladimir Putin's invasion of Ukraine have been wide-ranging. For its part, Canada has sanctioned a number of Russian government officials and oligarchs. And now, the Canada Council for the Arts is doing the same with artists. In a recent statement, the organization announced that "all activity involving the participation of Russian or Belarusian artists or arts organizations will cease to be funded", until Russia withdraws its military forces from Ukraine. Simon Brault is the CEO of the Canada Council for the Arts. We reached him in Gatineau.

GF: Mr. Brault, what is it that you hope to achieve by cutting ties with artists in Russia and Belarus in this way?

SIMON BRAULT: What we're trying to achieve is we tried to show solidarity with the Ukrainian people, also Ukraine artists. And we also try to show solidarity with other public funders of the arts across the world. I'm very involved with colleagues from all over the world. I'm still the chair of the International Federation of Arts Councils and Cultural Agencies. And there's a huge movement right now trying to send a signal to the world that what is happening right now in Ukraine is just not acceptable. What we do is we do it in that spirit. So, it's not at all targeting Russian artists or Russian arts or, you know, the great culture of Russia. It's more about making sure that no public money coming from Canadian funds are injected into the Russian economy right now. That's the spirit of those sanctions.

GF: But in your own statement, you say that you understand that these sanctions will have unfortunate consequences for certain Canadian artists and artistic organizations. And that citizens of Russia and Belarus will also be penalized.

SB: Yep. Yep.

GF: Are you sure that you're really targeting the right people?

SB: I think we're saying that. And, in fact, you know, the money that Canada Council would spend to support tours in Russia, and all of that is minimum. So it's… it's quite symbolic. And we know that it's true for any sanction that is applied by any country right now against Russia. The end result of those sanctions are on people. And the people will, you know, protest more against the regime. So, I think it's kind of a negative consequence.

GF: But if the purpose of sanctions is to influence. At the end of the day, to influence the government or Mr. Putin's behaviour, these are… these people, first of all, it's unlikely that they would have much influence. And often, they are the only voices brave enough to be speaking up against the actions of the government. So why… why would we want to penalize them?

SB: Actually, it's not about penalizing them. It's more making sure that, again, because Canada Council is spending public money, we want to make sure, we want to assure, you know, Canadians and the world that we are not sending, you know, public money, Canadian public money, in Russia to achieve anything. We are just saying that any project that would normally happen in normal circumstances in Russia will not be supported right now.

GF: But you don't… you don't make a distinction between official governmental art organizations and individual artists, do you? I mean, you are lumping them together.

SB: I mean, in a sense, we do, because we don't fund Russian artists anyway. We always fund Canadians --

GF: Who may collaborate with Russian artist?

SB: Yes, they may collaborate. And again, you know, if… I don't know. And that's why we say, you know, it's case-by-case. So people should… you know, if they have a specific project, they should phone us. Let's say someone would like to do something right now with a Russian artist about, you know, what is happening in the protest on the streets of Moscow. And this artist would like to work with Canadian artists, and all the production obviously would be done here and… and the post-production and all of that. We would support the project like that.

GF: You would? So that would not fall under this ban?

SB: No, not at all. Because the… because again, the money would not be spent in Russia. And it's not a question of isolating artists or people protesting against the regime. It's exactly the contrary.

GF: Now, those distinctions notwithstanding, there have been a number of Canadian artists in the last couple of days, professors, journalists who have been very critical of your decision. As an example, musician Torquil Campbell called the policy, quote, wrongheaded, xenophobic, cruel and counterproductive. What do you say to those critics?

SB: Yeah. Actually, you know, since we published that, we had both, you know, a huge wave of support and some people critiquing and some people not understanding the decision. So, when we talk about the Russian artists, you know, we're not talking about the Canadian artists who migrate from Russia. For us, they are Canadian. This is why we support them. I guess on the more fundamental philosophical question about, you know, the art and what we do in a situation like that. I think, you know, I spent all my life fighting to have the arts front and centre in our society. And in this… and I think it's only logical to think that the arts are not kind of the bubble that is completely separated or divorced from society and from the state of the world. We could have done it differently if there were still ongoing diplomatic relationships with Russia, if it was not a war, you know? We don't support artists only because we agree with the regime. But at this very moment, we think it's a reasonable position and decision. And we think the impact will be more positive than, you know, than people who disagree.

GF: What is the precedent for this? I mean, for instance, what do you say to those who argue that by this very same logic, you should have sanctioned artists with American ties when the U.S. invaded Iraq?

SB: You know, again, I think that the quote, you know, sanctioning artists, I don't think we should ever sanction artists. I think --

GF: Or take the same measures, if you prefer?

SB: But applying sanctions against a country violating, you know, human rights or doing a war like that. I personally, as a citizen, believe that we should do it more often. And I really hope that the kind of response that is happening now, that is really a precedent. We did not see that since, you know, many, many, many years. I hope that it will st some kind of an example. And that dictators who are in a situation of genocides or situation like that in the future, there will be sanctions and protest. So I don't think that is because it was not done before when it should have been done. That it should be done in the future, that it's a reason for not acting when there is a momentum across the world right now.

GF: All right, we'll see what happens as we go forward. Mr. Brault, thanks so much for joining us.

SB: Thank you.

CH: Simon Brault is the CEO of the Canada Council for the Arts. We reached him in Gatineau.

[Music: Horns!!!]

NS Cab Company

CH: Around the world, gas prices have risen dramatically. In North America, they're setting records -- because Russia's attack on Ukraine has put even greater pressure on already-surging oil prices. In Nova Scotia, the price of gas has hit a new high three times over the past week. It's now over two dollars a litre in some places. And for Halifax cab company owner Angie Herman, that means her employee's jobs have become more and more unaffordable.

SOUNDCLIP

ANGIE HERMAN: It's very scary for drivers. So the metered rate you pay to get a taxi ride has not changed in 10 years. And so, a driver typically has to work six days a week just to survive, just to make it. Our drivers are struggling tremendously. An average driver would probably spend about 30 litres a day just to drive around. That's time idling or driving, deadheading, before they even get a fair in their car. So about 30 litres a day. For most of our drivers, just in these two changes that have happened in the past week and a half, they're already paying $150 more a month in fuel than they were, you know, a week and a half ago. And their revenue has not improved at all in that situation to help offset it. We think urgent help is needed. And we have written to the city and asked if they could look at this urgently. Because, you know, a lot of our drivers for taxi, it's not a part-time business. Most of them are full-time drivers. A lot of, you know, immigrants or long-time drivers whose families rely on this. They're devastated. They're very stressed. They're coming in and talking to us. It has just not been as financially viable for people who fuel is a large component of their expenses.

CH: That was Halifax cab company owner Angie Herman, speaking with the CBC's Anjuli Patil.

[Music: Acoustic guitar]

Invasive Spiders

Guest: Andy Davis

CH: No one ever says, "What a fun invasive species. So glad it's crowding out all the local wildlife!" But this invasive species may seem even less welcome than the rest because -- and fair warning here to the arachnophobes -- it's a species of spider. However, even if you've already climbed up on a chair, maybe you should keep listening. Because yes, the Joro spider is as big as your palm. And yes, its babies use parachutes to fly kilometres at a time. And sure, it has already invaded the state of Georgia and could be on its way to invading the entire east coast of North America. But it might not be that bad. That's what a new study published in the journal Physiological Entomology says. Andy Davis is the lead author. He's also a research scientist at the Odum School of Ecology at the University of Georgia. We reached him in Athens, Georgia.

GF: Andy, can you take me back to the first time you saw one of these spiders in Georgia?

ANDY DAVIS: Oh boy! Well, that was an exciting day. I remember I was walking with my wife on the campus of the University of Georgia here. We had heard about these things coming to Georgia from a colleague, and we… I remember we saw one on the side of the path. And we both stopped, and we both immediately knew what it was from the description because it is so striking. And we took some goofy photos of it, and then we sort of went on our way. But then, you know, a couple of years later, you know, now they're basically everywhere here in Georgia.

GF: So… so what do they look like?

AD: You know, for people who haven't… haven't seen these before, maybe imagine a grape in the palm of your hand. If you… if that grape was yellow and black, and then if you stuck some toothpicks around the sides, [GF chuckles] like eight toothpicks for the legs, that would be about the general shape and size of it. It's big.

GF: Now, why are there so many in Georgia?

AD: Well, their population is exploding. So initially, they were… they… we think they were… they arrived here on a shipping container somewhere… somewhere between Athens and Atlanta in North Georgia in 2014. Now, they cover, you know, roughly the upper portion of Georgia. And now, they're also entering into Tennessee, North Carolina and South Carolina.

GF: And did they originate in Japan? Is that what the thinking is?

AD: Yes. So, they… we think they came from Japan or somewhere in East Asia, which is where their native range is. They cover a pretty big territory over there. And so, you know, that's one of the things that makes this spider so interesting. Because, you know, if you think of the… the climate of Japan, it's, you know, it's in an environment that's not really that much different than what it's used to.

GF: Tell… tell me about the babies and the parachutes that go… [chuckling] can go for a long-distance?

AD: Yeah, they do parachute. So the way the spider lives its life is that it lives during the summer and the fall. And it… it has an egg sac, one or two egg sacs, that it deposits at the end of its life and then it dies. And in the spring, they hatch, and the little babies come out of the egg, and then they… after they get big enough, they… they send up a little strand of their silk. And the silk catches the air like a parachute, and then they sort of float away. So, they can… they can definitely travel some distance.

GF: So, okay, so this is all very interesting. But you know, what… what is the impact of an invasion of spiders on a local ecosystem?

AD: Well, that's a great question. There… I know there are some efforts underway here in Georgia and the surrounding area to begin to look at the impacts of this species to the native fauna. But so far, based on, like, anecdotal sightings and observations, we don't think it's going to have a huge impact right yet. I mean, there are some non-native species out there that are definitely causing havoc, like the emerald ash borer and the… you know, brown marmorated stink bug, that kind of thing. We don't think this new Joro spider is going to be the same… in the same category as those.

GF: Is there any danger to humans?

AD: Definitely not. I've fielded this question [chuckle] from a number of homeowners and people that are concerned. Even though this spider looks threatening, I guess depending on your point of view, it's really not much of a threat at all. In fact, behaviourally, I have a student working on this right now. Behaviourally, I can tell you that the species is very, very timid. So, it's… it's going to… it's afraid of humans. And even if it wanted to, its fangs are pretty small. So it really wouldn't be able to do much. In fact, my co-author, he actually handled a bunch of these for our project. And he was actually bitten a couple of times by these spiders. He kind of just shrugged it off, and he said, you know, it was more like it's just a little pinch.

GF: Hmm. What about to mosquitoes? [chuckling] Are they a danger to mosquitoes?

AD: I would say yes. In fact, I've heard other scientists down here claim that, you know, if you have a bunch of these webs in your yard, you can almost think of it as like free mosquito service.

GF: Well, that's a silver lining for sure, eh?

AD: Yeah. I mean, I like to think that, you know, this species is… it's brand new to this… to this… to this range. It's new to us humans here in this range. But really, I think after a while, and I don't know how long it's going to be, but after a while, I think the ecosystem will sort of catch up. And this… this species will become integrated into the native ecosystem here. Because in our study, we actually compared the physiology of this new spider to a cousin of this spider that is already here and that has been here for 150 years. And in our study, one of the things we did was we compared the physiology of this joro to this cousin that's already here. And our thinking was that if the joro matched the cousin, then that would mean that the joro would also sort of be confined to the southeast like the cousin is. And it turns out that the joro doesn't have a closely related physiology to the cousin. The joro seems to be much more cold-tolerant. And it has a higher metabolic rate, higher heart rate. And it has a shorter season. So we put all of those three things together, and that's… that's sort of what told us that this joro would probably survive pretty well up and down the Eastern Seaboard.

GF: Well, and given its resistance to cold, what are the chances that it could make its way as far north as Canada?

AD: I knew you were going to ask that question!

GF: [laughing] Of course I was!

AD: I did check on some… some temperature readings from different places in Canada. And based on the temperatures in, like, southern Ontario, definitely places like Vancouver, I would guess that they could survive if they made it up there.

GF: All right. Well, we'll… we'll keep a lookout for them. Thanks very much, Andy, for telling us about it today.

AD: Oh, it was my pleasure. Thank you for the interest in this study.

GF: Take care.

AD: All righty.

CH: Andy Davis is a research scientist at the Odum School of Ecology at the University of Georgia. He was in Athens, Georgia.

[Music: Surf rock]

Michigan Ice Hut

CH: After a day out on the ice of Saginaw Bay in Michigan, the three men were tired. So when one of them mentioned the approaching storm, they all agreed: they'd be fine until morning. So they went to sleep in their ice-fishing shanty. But sometime after they drifted off, they began to literally drift off. And when they awoke, their optimism began to slip away -- as they realized their little homemade shelter was slipping away.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: A strong wind]

[/sc]

CH: A terrifying sound. Not this one, necessarily. This is just, like, we layered the sound of a curling rock sliding on ice over another sound of a curling rock sliding on ice. The shanty probably sounded a lot louder than this because it… it was pretty big. It was big enough to hold the three people, obviously. Anyway: [clears throat] there they were, in the shanty, being blown across the frozen bay. Wait a minute. Blown? Hold on a sec. Can we… can we stop? We forgot the wind. I'm super sorry! [scoffs] Can we just add some wind?

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: Now this is strong wind… you know, and not two curling rocks]

[/sc]

CH: Yeah. Great. There. So, at 8:00 a.m. on Sunday, someone called first responders, after seeing one of the shelter's inhabitants attempting, and failing, to stop their shelter's dramatic slide. By the time the deputies arrived, the three men had abandoned the shanty. Which travelled a total of 1.6 kilometres -- that’s about a mile -- across the ice, blown by winds that reached 80 kilometres per hour. Everyone's fine. No injuries. Just some embarrassment. Because if someone asks them what they thought they were even doing out there, the answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind. The answer is blowin' in the wind.

[Music: Hip-hop beat]

Part 3: Kyiv Art Gallery, Ukraine: African Students

Thunder Bay Ambulances “Code Black”

CH: When you call for an ambulance, every second of waiting is excruciating. Because any wait longer than five minutes could mean the difference between life and death. But lately, in Thunder Bay, Ontario, wait times have sometimes exceeded an hour. The city has frequently found itself struggling with what are known as a "code black" situations. That's when there is no ambulance available to be dispatched to an emergency. Rob Moquin is a paramedic with Superior North EMS. He's also the chair of the union, Unifor 3911, which represents local paramedics. He told the CBC what's behind the repeated "code black" situations.

SOUNDCLIP

ROB MOQUIN: We've had in our master plan a strategic plan for over the last decade, a recognition that our call volume was going to be increased at an average of about six-eight percent annually. And when we're having these increases over the course of a decade, we're not increasing our staffing levels to equal the demand that the city puts on the ambulance service. Now that being said, if it was just our regular call volume that we were basing these numbers on over 10 years ago, we might be able to keep our head above water. But right now, we're seeing an increase, certainly, on the opioid crisis, as well as some social-economical issues that are… that are really taxing our ambulance service and having our ambulances attend calls that may not necessarily be the right call an ambulance should be going to. And by that, I mean, we have a lot of social-economical and social service calls for service that ambulances and paramedics in particular are… we're not well-equipped or well-trained to do. And that being the social work aspect of… of what the city is demanding when it comes to calls for service. So all that being said, we're seeing a demand on the ambulance service causing countless code black situations where when people do call 9-1-1, there is not an ambulance in the city of Thunder Bay coming to…. coming to your emergency. It's happening now far too often and for far too long. On Friday night, we had situations where we had four times an ambulance was unavailable for over 40 minutes each time. And when an ambulance does become available, it's often stepped up into the queue of waiting calls that have been pending for sometimes upwards of six hours. We had one lasting its longest at 90 minutes. And it's sad to say that that wasn't bad considering what we've been facing over the last couple of months, couple of years when it comes to code blacks. But again, 90 minutes is a long time to wait for an ambulance. In our… in our experience showing up on scene, certainly in an intense scene or an intense call, when we walk in and our response time might have only been four or five minutes previous, family members ask what took so long? So I can understand the feeling of it being a lifetime for us to get there. And I could not imagine what it's like to be told the ambulance is not coming for upwards of an hour.

MARY-JEAN CORMIER: So if you have a situation that's, you know, I've just had a heart attack, what's happening?

RM: So, and that's exactly what happened in Quebec. Was it was actually… it was a paramedic who… who suffered a heart attack, a cardiac arrest. And the ambulance was unavailable to get to him for quite some time. So right now, the city of Thunder Bay does have in its plans where they will send Thunder Bay Fire to attend a medical call. But it's important to understand that Thunder Bay Fire is not an ambulance.

CH: Rob Moquin is a paramedic with Superior North EMS. He was speaking to Mary-Jean Cormier, guest host of Superior Morning.

[Music: Light rock]

Kyiv Art Gallery

Guest: Olesia Ostrovska-Liuta

CH: As the shells rain down on Kyiv, Olesia Ostrovska-Liutaj sees more than life and liberty at stake. Ms. Ostrovska-Liutaj is the director of Ukraine's enormous modern art museum, the Mystetskyi Arsenal. She and her colleagues have been busy spiriting masterpieces away to safety. And now, as her fellow residents take on the military and political fight, she says she's fighting to preserve a cultural legacy that goes well beyond Ukraine itself. We reached Olesia Ostrovska-Liuta in Kyiv.

GF: Ms. Ostrovska-Liuta, what is the situation where you are tonight in Kyiv?

OLESIA OSTROVSKA-LIUTA: I am in Kyiv, so the situation is changing fast. You might have shelling, and at any moment, you have Russian troops very close to Kyiv. But the city itself feels calm, stressed, very stressed but… but calm. Much less people than usual, but still, you have people almost everywhere. You have shops working. Of course, institutions such as universities, museums, etc. They are not open for the public. They function in another way. So that's how Kyiv looks right now.

GF: I want to ask you about your institution and the museum. You have been working very hard over the last days and weeks to protect the collection that you have. Can you tell me a bit about that? What you've been doing?

OOL: Well, we did. We took protection steps and measures, which I cannot disclose, obviously.

GF: Right. But are you… are you sure that they are safe now? Are you confident that they will not fall victim to the bombing, should it… should it come?

OOL: You cannot be sure of that in Ukraine in any place.

GF: What are the objects that you fear, that you worry about the most?

OOL: I think the most vulnerable objects now are not the so-called museum objects but our historical sites and buildings. You've seen Kharkiv, a city in northern Ukraine is being shelled heavily and bombing. Well, bombs landed exactly in the very centre of Kharkiv, where the largest… largest ensemble of constructivist buildings is. And those are the buildings that survived World War Two. And they are really a jewel. And rockets and bombs are landing exactly where they are.

GF: What was it like for you to see those pictures of those jewels, what you call those jewels, coming under attack?

OOL: Um, it's… I don't know how to answer this question? Because, of course, you are… you are shocked. Of course, you are sad. Of course, you are scared. But on the other hand, Ukraine has a very long history of losing. During the whole 20th century, that was a series of losing -- for example, Ukrainian avant-garde. Avant-garde paintings were continuously destroyed during the 20th century because they… they didn't comply with the Soviet ideological main line. People were executed, hundreds and hundreds of cultural figures. The last outstanding cultural figure that… that actually died in Siberia poet Vasyl Stus, who died in 1985. And that's perestroika time.

GF: I have to ask you why you… you stay in Kyiv when so many people are leaving for such obvious reasons? Why are you still there?

OOL: I think all my colleagues, directories of other museums are staying. At the moment, my institution needed me to stay… stay for the first 10 days. Now, it's a complex of reasons. Part of my institution is here. Part of my team is here. But it can happen that I might leave for another place as well.

GF: But for now, you feel safe enough to stay?

OOL: You don't feel safe enough anywhere in Ukraine.

GF: Yeah, but you feel what… responsible enough to stay? What is… what is it… the driving force that's keeping you there?

OOL: It's feeling responsible.

GF: You had appealed a few days ago to the international community of artists to support Ukraine at this particular moment. What were you hoping to hear from them? And did you hear the kinds of things? Have you seen the kinds of things that you… you have asked for?

OOL: [voice wavering] There was a huge response from international community. We're very grateful. To colleagues from all over the world, many people are offering help. The… the problem is that the main help we need is actually military support, a no-fly-zone over Ukraine. And that's not a competence of cultural workers.

GF: Mm-hmm. I can hear the emotion in your voice. And you talk about responsibility. You must be exhausted?

OOL: Well, I think many of us are.

GF: Are you going to be okay?

OOL: I hope so. Yes, I hope so. Of course, I have to be okay.

GF: [chuckling] Why? Why do you have to be okay?

OOL: Oh, it's a… it's a… it's a funny question, isn't it? Well, first of all, I have a family. I have to care for my family, so I have to be okay for my family. Nobody wants to perish, even when it's such a horrible war as… as Russia has started.

GF: Yeah. Vladimir Putin has made it quite clear that this is a war to erase Ukrainian nationhood. Do you believe it's a war to erase Ukrainian culture as well?

OOL: Of course, of course, there's no doubt about that. Russia has a huge problem with Ukraine. It's connected to the fact that Russia is an empire. And the very existence of Ukraine poses a huge problem for a Russian empire because there is a lot of Ukrainian heritage in the heart of that empire. Take Nikolai Gogol or Tchaikovsky. All those people of Ukrainian descent. And suddenly, existence of Ukraine and its culture poses the question: what is Russia then? And Putin gives his answer. He says there is no Ukraine. We will just invade it and make it one with Putin's Russia. Then, this problem is resolved.

GF: Mm-Hmm. I understand more why… why you insist on staying.

OOL: This is not just Putin, this is a collective doing. Russia is invading Ukraine because Ukraine should not exist so that Russia does not have to transform. If Ukraine exists, Russia has to change, Russia has to transform profoundly. And that's probably a hard historical process. So in this strange Putin world, it's much easier to make Ukraine perish.

GF: Well, I hope that does not happen. And I hope that you are safe. And I hope that the institution that you head remains safe. And I'm sure we will talk again. So thank you so much for your time tonight.

OOL: Thank you very much.

CH: Olesia Ostrovska-Liuta is the director of Ukraine's Mystetskyi Arsenal galleries and museum complex. We reached her in Kyiv.

[Music: Ambient]

Montreal Rabbis Head To Poland

CH: This week, three Montreal rabbis left their congregations, and headed for the Polish border. An estimated one million Ukrainians have sought refuge from the Russian invasion in Poland, many arriving without basic supplies or a place to stay. So instead of watching from home, the rabbis decided to get on a plane and make a whirlwind visit to Poland to see if they could help. They landed in Warsaw yesterday. Rabbi Alex Scheier is with the Shaar Hashomayim Congregation.

SOUNDCLIP

ALEX SCHEIER: We're here to witness this moment in history. Today, we… we visited a centre where… a hostel where many Ukrainian refugees are living now. And to see the children running around who just a few days ago were running around their own homes. And now, everything's been extraordinary upheaval. And to witness this moment in history. And to witness the good that's happening. The people who have stepped up. The Polish people who have the entire country, essentially, it seems like from what we're seeing is pitching in. We visited a volunteer centre where… a donation centre where people are just giving out. There are boxes all over, come and take what you need. It's extraordinary to witness this moment of history. I am the descendant of refugees from Ukraine or from that part… part of the world, but they identified as Ukrainians. They were Jews who were living in… in Galicia, in places that now are Ukraine. And they left in search of their… in search of their freedom. They were forced out. They were driven out. And so, to see history repeating itself in this way and to see people so vulnerable and scared and in need of the assistance of others is certainly… that's certainly something that's drawn me to this place at this particular moment in time. It's impossible to be in Poland and to be on the border with Ukraine and not think about history as a Jew in particular. The names of the places that were driving through are names of places that had robust communities or are names of places in which great tragedies took place for our… for our people. But our focus is really not on history. That's not why we're here. We're here to do our small part, and trying to help people find a better future for themselves.

CH: Rabbi Alex Scheier is with the Shaar Hashomayim Congregation in Montreal. He spoke with our colleague Lauren McCallum.

[Music: Glassy guitar riff]

Ukraine: African Students

Guest: Tolulope Osho

CH: Today, there's some relief for civilians in the Ukrainian city of Sumy. Thousands have been evacuated from the besieged area in the country's northeast -- following an agreement between Russia and Ukraine to set up a safe passage. Among the evacuees are hundreds of Black students and residents. Help has been slow to reach them so far. Throughout the conflict, multiple incidents of Ukrainian authorities discriminating against Black students has come to light. And that discrimination left many to fend for themselves. Tolulope Osho is a Nigerian businessman based in Ukraine. He's been helping African students leave the country. We reached him today in Budapest, Hungary where he's taking refuge.

GF: Mr. Osho, how big a relief was it for you to see these students finally get out of Sumy today?

TOLULOPE OSHO: Actually, it's not just about Sumy. I've been doing this for other people who have been evacuating from Kharkiv, from Kyiv, from all parts of Ukraine. And actually, I'm just so happy that the government finally helped us and they listened to our voice and it was wonderful. So I'm just happy. And I think I'm feeling relieved, like, okay, fine, it's good.

GF: This particular group, where are they now? Do you know?

TO: Until I… like, I’m contacting someone on ground with people moving as well, so I try to reach him. I'm unable to reach him, but we just waiting. At least, the bus will take some hours before it could get to some certain destination, which they can be able to get out of the country.

GF: So they will be dropped somewhere in Ukraine, and then be able to transition after that? That's what your hope is?

TO: I'm not sure. Maybe the government gave the passage to drive them straight down to Poland, probably straight down to maybe the extraction and evacuation points. I don't know. But we’re just waiting. I have someone in the bus as well who is my eyes there. So I'm just monitoring their movements to make sure all these people are actually safe.

GF: Right. Now, you yourself, up until just a couple of days ago, were in Ukraine and made a decision to stay there. Why did you do that? Why did you think that was important?

TO: [chuckle] You know, basically, I was in the Ukraine. I studied in Ukraine before. And after I finished my master's, I was actually running a business. And then, when the issue happened, immediately, there was a man who said, we should help him and take our four daughters out of Ukraine. I’m also in the car with my friend who helped me in the situation, so we were driving together to the border. And on getting there, I have a lot of friends back there. I still have a lot of things back here. I can’t just decide to flee into Poland when I have the capacity to help a lot of people in this situation. I think like, wow, I've been helping people. Let me just do this and see how I can get them. Because I was actually staying in the safe zone, and I can see how they can easily navigate to get out of the country, which is why I just took this up.

GF: You wanted to help?

TO: Yeah.

GF: And tell me a little bit about the help you were able to provide. What have you been doing?

TO: Oh, this is what I've been doing. There are people who are stuck in Kharkiv. They are unable to get out of the country. So since they are being stuck in Kharkiv, I just… I booked tickets. I can book train tickets for them. And mostly, people who don’t have access to funds because all the bank accounts are being locked down. They cannot even have access to get money. All the exchanges in the country, who have been helping us get the currency, they do not even have the ability to provide such services. So I've been the one crediting them directly from my pocket up to this moment.

GF: Wow! And you've been helping them find shelter as well, I understand?

TO: Yeah, in my house, I took some people in. You know, I stay in the safe zone like I said. So if they are driving or maybe they find the escape route from Kharkiv, then they will arrive at 10:00 at night. I take them into my house, give them food, give them drink. And probably, in the next morning, they will begin to get out to Poland, to the border. That's like I've been giving them shelter, not like I'm keeping people in danger as well. I'm just taking them in and getting them out as fast as I can. And also, my friend has also been driving them out with his personal car.

GF: How many people do you think you've helped?

TO: It's over 200 people.

GF: More than 200?!

TO: Yeah, more than 200. I can just count. I've got a lot of DMs coming in and out.

GF: And I'm sure this is costing you money. How are you financing this?

TO: Yeah, I'm a cryptocurrency miner. I have a mining machine. Also, I have a shop which I'm managing.

GF: And how long… how long can you continue to do that?

TO: As long as I can. But I know it's just normal. But since it's just basically a warzone and people are actually out right now. And the situation, and like people are in Europe, I don't just want everybody to be out there and stranded. So we need to just… we need to, like, talk with people which I've been in connection with what is the next step? What is going to happen? Do you want to start registering them to school? Do you just want them to be fleeing around the whole of Europe? It doesn't work that way. We need to get everybody in order. We… this is not the kind of life we plan to live.

GF: Do you think people will stay and with the intention or the hope of going back to Ukraine?

TO: Actually, people are already fleeing already. [chuckling] They already fleeing the whole of Europe. I just… I just fond myself, you know, in Hungary. I have to stay and register myself here legally to see what the government is actually providing for us. But we've got some people who are already deciding what to do? They are going to stay with their siblings in Germany and France. But basically, maybe, I don't know? Because Ukraine, it would take long before Ukraine could get back on its feet. There are people who have not finished their education. They have to start all over again. We don't know when Ukraine is coming back alive?

GF: And what about you? Do you hope to go back to Ukraine?

TO: For me, I lost it all. I just want to start all over again. I just… I don't know what to do for my life? I’m just… for now, I lost everything. I only had one one of my crypto gear. Like, lt's not even enough for me. I just have to start all over again. I'll have to start from scratch.

GF: How do you feel about that?

TO: Well, when it like this, oh, I believe… I believe since things have happened like this, I can still, one way or another, get back on my feet. And no matter how bad the situation might be, I will keep going further and further. So it's a normal process. I've been in this process for a very long time. I've had some savings. I had to go into my savings and do this for people, but it's still okay. I believe one day, God will reward me.

GF: Well, thank you for… for all that you've done. And thank you, Mr. Osho, for speaking with us today. Good luck to you.

TO: Thank you very much. God bless you.

GF: Bye-bye.

TO: Bye-bye.

CH: Tolulope Osho is a Nigerian businessman based in Ukraine. He's been helping African students leave the country. We reached him today in Budapest, Hungary.

[Music: Sombre piano]

MB Lots Of Female Surgeons

CH: At one hospital in Manitoba, every day is International Women's Day. They still observe the regular days of the week because that would be confusing. But the surgery team at Boundary Trails Health Centre near Winkler is made up of 75 per cent women, which is rare for Canada. Surgeons are still overwhelmingly men -- women make up just 25 per cent of general surgery positions in the country. Elizabeth Thompson is the lead surgeon at Boundary Trails. She explained why her team is so rare.

SOUNDCLIP

DR. ELIZABETH THOMPSON: I will tell you, we didn't set out to create a team like that. It happened sort of an evolution. When I first started here, I was actually only the second female surgeon, and there were six male surgeons. So there has been certainly a shift and a change. And the biggest thing with our team as we built it, as we were adding to it or had positions opening up, was really to… to find surgeons who are willing to work as a team. And we really strove to do that, whether male or female. And by very lucky and… and finding fantastic candidates, 10 of our surgeons now are female.

MARCY MARKUSA: Overall, when you look at the numbers across the country, why do you think we continue to still see such a disproportionate number of men who are surgeons and not more numbers of women?

DET: Well, I suspect that that is going to slowly shift, partly. I think part of what it is is still stereotypes. I didn't graduate from medical school all that long ago, but I was told by two different surgeons who are male that if I wanted to have a family, I really shouldn't consider a medical career in surgery. And their comments were either that you will not make yourself available enough to patients if you have a family. Or, if you take any amount of maternity leave, you won't be competent enough to come back and operate. And I am very happy to say that despite that, quote/unquote, advice, I've been able to make a fantastic career in surgery. And I would suspect that the other nine female surgeons I work with feel quite supported in their choice to be here as a female surgeon. Whether or not they have a family is, quite frankly, in my opinion, a little bit irrelevant.

MM: And you did also, just because I know this of you, did also take two maternity leaves.

DET: I did. Yes, absolutely. And the male surgeons that I worked with were exceedingly supportive and made sure that my patients had fantastic care while I was on maternity leave. And were willing to pick up some extra calls. And… and that's really just part of the team, I said, whether male or female. And so, I did that, and I came back. And it's certainly an adjustment, as all new mothers will say. But it's been a fantastic adjustment with the team that we have here.

CH: That was Dr. Elizabeth Thompson speaking with Marcy Markusa, host of CBC Winnipeg's Information Morning.

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March 08, 2022 Episode Transcript

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