Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2022

The Current Transcript for March 8, 2022

Host: Duncan McCue

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

Back To Top »

The helping hands at the Polish-Ukrainian border; sanctions against Russian oligarchs

Guests: Matt Galloway, Casey Michel

SOUNDCLIP

The questions I was receiving today are, you know, are we in danger or are we going to be bombs? What is NATO? Who are allies, right? So real, real solid questions.

DUNCAN MCCUE: As the war in Ukraine continues. Kids here are asking questions. Parents and teachers are grappling with how to answer them. How to explain a global conflict to children while making them feel safe. That's coming up in 30 minutes. Then.

SOUNDCLIP

I love my birds like I love life. They are part of my family.

DM: Rodney Stotts loves his birds, and his mission in life is to share that love with people on the verge of crisis in an hour. Rodney Stotts journey from drug dealer to Master Falconer. Plus, 100 years on the lasting legacy of Canada's first female MP Agnes MacPhail, but first to Poland, where the currents Matt Galloway has been meeting with people fleeing Ukraine and the people who are rushing towards the war to help people in need. I'm Duncan McCue. This is The Current.

[Muisc: Theme]

DM: According to the UNHCR, the number of refugees fleeing Ukraine could reach two million by tomorrow, but it's not a one way street. There are many people rushing toward Ukraine's borders. They've been driving from Romania, Moldova, Germany, Estonia and more. Most are stopping in Poland, where the majority of Ukrainian refugees have come. More than 900000 so far. And for them, even the smallest kindness goes a long way.

SOUNDCLIP

Just a little boy come from and take a teddy bear. It's fun to be helping people because we need to help them.

DM: Once they cross into Poland. Many Ukrainians are being sent to an empty, a big box store in the town of Pzremysl. That's where Matt Galloway your usual host here at The Current went to this week, Matt.

MATT GALLOWAY: Hello, Duncan.

DM: Good morning. What is the scene like at that big box store?

MATT GALLOWAY: It is very, very busy. You come in and you can see it from the road. There's a parking lot that's filled with buses and with camper vans and with cars all down. One side are these tents that have huge mountains of free clothes that are on offer. There are tens offering free food. There are tents that are offering health care. There is tea that's being offered, which is really important. Then you get to the front of what used to be a Tesco, a British department store. You get to the front of the store and there are all these people who are milling around trying to figure out what to do. There's a guy in a megaphone who's kind of barking instructions and then inside the store has been transformed into this area where refugees can go. They can catch their breath, where volunteers can take care of them and address any immediate sort of health care needs, where they might be able to address some of the trauma that they've been through. And then, perhaps most importantly, they start to coordinate kind of who wants to go where in the early days, apparently it was very, very chaotic. When we've been there over the last couple of days, it's calmed down a little bit. There's a degree of order to it, but it is just a really busy place and it is kind of the place, the first place as soon as refugees get across the border, but they end up when they're trying to figure out where they're going to go next.

DM: Have you had a chance to stop and talk with some of the people who are there?

MATT GALLOWAY: We have. We were speaking with a number of people who are trying to get to other places in Poland. We also spoke with a lot of people who are driving down from other countries in Europe to address this refugee crisis, people who've driven for over 10 hours from Sweden and Estonia and Germany. People like this guy who had a sign in said Berlin. And the number of people were on it. So I said Berlin number four. We asked him what he was doing.

SOUNDCLIP

My name is Oliver is I'm from Berlin and we came here to Poland to pick up some people and bring them to Berlin to a safe place. We have four seats, so it's four seats for Berlin. That's our destination. Yeah, it's nice. You see a very, very international crowd coming here like you see cars from Italy, from the Netherlands, from Luxembourg, from Germany. So they only get kind of on the highway and then pick up some people and bring them to safe places.

MATT GALLOWAY: He's not exaggerating. Those are the countries. And the more that you see people from these are people who are picking up strangers. They have never met the people that they're going to put into the car. They're taking those people to places that they've never actually gone before. They are getting set to share what would be what a 15-18 hour drive with people who don't speak the same language they're communicating through Google Translate. It's this sort of mobilisation of people from across the continent who are there trying to help out and address this refugee issue. There's a real sense of solidarity that's remarkable.

DM: What what are they telling you about how they're feeling about what they're seeing?

MATT GALLOWAY: Well, that's the that's the thing. There's this sense of solidarity of people who are coming together, but there's also some surprise. We talked about this a little bit the other day. The issue of refugees is explosive in many parts of Europe, including here in Poland.

SOUNDCLIP

It's for me very astonishsing who follows this kind of situation since years where you see pushbacks, where you see violent border behaviour as a border regime, which is really preventing people entering the European Union. And now we have a shift, and I hope this will not just include the Ukrainians, but also much broader and giving people the possibility to have asylum in the European Union and beyond the colour of your skin. Racism is also a topic here where you think, OK, in this kind of horrible situation we have now, this should not be a problem. So we still have to be careful that this kind of hospitality is also for everyone.

DM: So good to hear that there are people there trying their best to help. Weather's not helping now. I understand.

MATT GALLOWAY: It's cold. We woke up to snow. Fortunately, that's not right at the border, but down where we are, we're in [unintelliglbe] right now. And if you had another 10 minutes or so down the road, you're at the border. It's very cold. And again, these are people who are getting out of a tree and walking for four or five kilometres. We spoke with doctors at the border earlier this week who are really concerned about frostbite. They've been treating frostbite. You go to the train station, which has been increasingly packed over the last couple of days, and there are people who are just sleeping on the floor, exhausted, wrapped up in blankets. They're chilled to the bone and it's the weather is not certainly not cooperating in this crisis.

DM: You've been gathering material for show tomorrow. You're going to full programme. Tell us a little bit more about what what you've got tomorrow and on what you're expecting in the in the weeks ahead in Bonn.

MATT GALLOWAY: We've been speaking with people who are really trying from all over the world trying to come and bear witness to this. I just came from a synagogue here. There are three rabbis who arrived from Montreal. They are here. Obviously, the experience of members of the Jewish community from abroad coming back to Poland is one of the rabbis said. These are the streets and the names that live in our imagination. They are here. They know of displacement. They want to come and bear witness to this. The synagogue, like the Orthodox Church behind me, has been turned into a temporary shelter. We'll hear from them. I spoke with the Canadian ambassador to Ukraine, pardon me, who is now displaced and here in Poland. We'll talk to her about the Canadian response, and she met some young kids who want to get to Canada. And so we introduced those kids to the ambassador and you'll hear that exchange. It was really powerful in terms of what these kids have fled war are looking for and why. Specifically, they want to get to Toronto and what they're looking for from the Canadian government. It was quite something good.

DM: Glad you can make time for us this morning, Matt. Take care.

MATT GALLOWAY: Duncan, thank you very much.

DM: Matt Galloway is your usual host here at The Current. He'll broadcast the programme from Poland. Beginning tomorrow from the situation on the border to the halls of power and wealth.

SOUNDCLIP

Tonight I say to the Russian oligarchs and the corrupt leaders who bilk billions of dollars off this violent regime. No more. The United States... [applause] I mean it. The United States Department of Justice is assembling a dedicated task force to go after the crimes of the Russian oligarchs. We're joining with European allies to find and seise their yachts, their luxury apartments, their private jets. We're coming for your ill gotten gains.

DM: President Joe Biden took aim at Russian oligarchs in his State of the Union address. European countries are also targeting these Russian billionaires, and this is Canada's Deputy Prime Minister Chrystia Freeland.

SOUNDCLIP

I have said, and I really want to emphasise everything is on the table and we are looking carefully at the holdings of oligarchs in Canada.

DM: Yesterday, Prime Minister Trudeau named 10 Russian individuals Canada was sanctioning, including several oligarchs. That's on top of a list of hundreds of entities with Russian ties that have faced sanctions going back to 2014, when Russian forces first invaded and annexed the Crimea and Crimean Crimean Peninsula from Ukraine. Casey Michel has been studying Russian oligarchs for years. He's an investigative reporter and the author of American Kleptocracy How the U.S. Created the World's Greatest Money Laundering Scheme in History. Casey Michel Hello.

CASEY MICHEL: Hey, Duncan, thanks for having me.

DM: What do you think of the way that the West is targeting Russian oligarchs in response to Russia's invasion of Ukraine?

CASEY MICHEL: I will say, you know, first things first, it's remarkable to see the unity, the unification this thrust across the Atlantic on both sides, out of North America, out of Europe, unlike anything we've seen before, certainly unlike anything we've seen in the last eight years since the first Russian invasion in 2014. I mean, to have the American president talking about in the State of the Union going after oligarchic ill gotten gains, as he said, I mean, to use that language the highest levels of certainly of American power to see that echoed in Brussels and in Ottawa, it's been remarkable to see and I will say I want to kind of caveat that because as fantastic as that is, as many task forces and resources in foursomes we're now seeing finally directed at Russian oligarchs. I just want to flag it's not going to be enough. We know where some of the mansions are. We know where some of the yachts are. We know where some of the high end artwork is. But at the end of the day, the West has been providing these financial secrecy tools for years and years that the oligarchs have used and abused to hide so much of their money. So two things are happening simultaneously. One, it's wonderful that we're finally targeting some of the assets that we know about. We're sanctioning the oligarchs and upending some of their networks. But at the end of the day, we still need far broader transparency reforms to fully upend and identify all of these oligarchic networks.

DM: And I want to get to those reforms in a second. But but let me take a step back because there's been a changing cast of characters over the decades. I mean, what what role do oligarchs play in the Russian economy and politics today?

CASEY MICHEL: Yeah, the oligarchs first rose in the 1990s, the 2000s, and you know, these are all men. There are no female oligarchs out of Russia. They initially seised all of these kind of firesale assets added of the former Soviet space, especially in Russia, right? These are oil fields, gas wells, you know, timberland steel plants. They use political connexions. They use Connections to organised crime, to rise through power in the 1990s, in the 2000s and began to accumulate significant. We're talking billions and billions of dollars initially under President Yeltsin and then especially under President Putin. But one of the things that we've seen over the last few years is that where the oligarchs were initially this power base under President Putin, where they ended up acting as effective proxies for the regime and beachhead in places like Ottawa and places like Brussels and Washington, what we've seen over the past few years is President Putin's inner circle has really shrunk considerably where it was previously that the oligarchs had his ear. They could push, you know, certain investment ideas, certain a bridge building projects into the West. What we've seen over the past two or three years, especially, is that a circle has shrunk down so considerably that now President Putin is listening only to nationalistic hard line figures out of the security services and out of the intelligence services. All of which is to say that if we're hoping the oligarchs might be the ones to change President Putin's mind, that window may have closed as of at least a few years ago. Now again, it's great that we're sanctioning them, and certainly we need far more of these reforms. But we can't fool ourselves into thinking that specific sanctions against specific oligarchs are going to change President Putin's mind right now.

DM: OK, so shifting there they have a shifting role in terms of their impact on on Russian politics. But but you wrote recently regarding this war in Ukraine quote the kleptocratic chicken is coming home to roost. What do you mean by that?

CASEY MICHEL: Yeah. No. This is the cycle that we've seen over the past two or three decades, especially since the early 1990s and the collapse in the Soviet Union, when you had all of this illicit suspect ill gotten wealth emerge from the post-Soviet space looking for a home. And all too often finding it in the West, in places like the US and especially in places like Canada that open their doors to again, all this oligarchic money coming through that did a few things. One, it allowed these Russian oligarchic figures to again build networks, build bridges, build entire organisations and. Funding mechanisms that pushed for pro-Russian policies in places like Ottawa, in places like Washington, I mean, I don't think it's any surprise that time and time and time again, at least up until this year, the Western response has been less than unified, less than the kind of response we've seen in the last few few weeks itself. Know that was one issue in and of itself opening our doors to the oligarchs. The other element, a far broader kind of 10000 foot level, is we know that when societies like those out of Russia end up creating these forms of truly horrific levels of wealth inequality that have been incentivised by, created by and protected by Western financial secrecy systems. We know the kind of destabilisation that leads, so we know the kind of nationalistic outcomes that leads to. So you had these two dynamics happening at once, one opening our doors to all of this oligarchic wealth, providing the financial secrecy tools for that and allowing those inroads to be built in Western capitals. Well, on the other hand, creating the kind of domestic context that allows for and encourages the rise of a Putin style figure. I mean, I don't think it's any surprise that we have seen similar Putin's figures rise out of similar economies, similar regimes elsewhere in the region, all of whom are taking part in this broader transnational kleptocratic financial flow again. So much of that money coming home to the West, I'm not saying that the West is certainly responsible for this, but there are architecture. There is an incentivization structure that allowed for the flourishing of a Putin style regime that we now obviously see in Moscow.

DM: But you're certainly saying that the West opened the doors to the oligarchs and and and Canada has played a role in that. I mean, there are several Russian billionaires with with business ties to Canada, especially in the oil patch and in Canada's West, and some of them aren't named in Canada sanctions. So, so why has Ottawa in particular been hesitant to go after some of these, these Russian oligarchs?

CASEY MICHEL: Well, that's a yeah, that's a great question. And hopefully you and your colleagues will continue to ask that of Canadian legislators. You know, I think on the one hand, we still don't have a great idea as it pertains to the entire networking of these oligarchs. Again, thanks to things like the financial secrecy tool, shell companies are anonymous real estate purchases, anonymous private equity investments elsewhere. That's certainly one one hand. We don't have a full picture yet of all of these oligarchic networks in Canada or elsewhere. The other hand, is perhaps a more depressing reality is that there are any number of industries that have profited hand over fist because of the broader financial secrecy architecture. Again, in places like Canada as well as elsewhere, these are the legal fields. This is the real estate industry. This is the private equity and hedge fund industry. This is the high end artwork industry, all of whom have an interest in continuing those inflows of oligarchic wealth of suspect, illicit or anonymous wealth from Russia and elsewhere into Canada because they are seeing a small slice of that profit along the way. So you do have internal pushback to clamping down on these oligarchic circles and oligarchic networks. And again, now we see the outcome of this, this incredibly horrific war in Ukraine as a direct result of this broader financial secrecy architecture, this broader kleptocratic architecture that has allowed for the free outflows of oligarchic wealth from Russia all across the West.

DM: You mentioned the secrecy. This is incredibly hard to track. I mean, what are some of the barriers that investigators are finding in terms of trying to to track down their money and where it's invested here in the West?

CASEY MICHEL: Yeah, certainly in Canada. I mean, on the one hand, we have this phenomenon of snow washing as this call right, coming to Canada and laundering money freely and legally and again. These are mechanisms that we've seen elsewhere, including the United States. This is the allowance of things like anonymous shell companies, anonymous partnerships, anonymous trusts, the lack of any kind of basic on-the-ground anti-money laundering requirements and then beyond that, investments anonymously and things like real estate and things like private equity. I mean, think of all the things we've seen out of just Vancouver over the past few years and all of the revelations about how British Columbia in totality has transformed into this kind of miniature offshore empire of itself. I mean, these building blocks of basic kleptocratic networks are freely available in Canada and have been for years and years and years. And again, this is only one jurisdiction because if you pull it back to an international or transnational level, it's not like Canada has been the only jurisdiction offering these financial secrecy tools. You have it having happening in the United States. You have it happening in Australia, happening in the United Kingdom, in places in the Caribbean and places in the Mediterranean and South Pacific. So all of a sudden you're entering into not just questions of having difficulties within the domestic context, but now you have this broader hemispheric, almost global phenomenon where you have to go to jurisdiction after jurisdiction, after jurisdiction to try to pierce Shell Company, after partnership, after trust and using all these different legal regimes and legal architectures. I mean, it is a complete nesting doll, a complete spider web of anonymity that it's no wonder we have such a small insight into where these oligarchs are actually hiding their money.

DM: If you start. If we start to seise the yachts in the mansions and the wealth, I mean, what should be done with that money?

CASEY MICHEL: Well, that's a great question. I would say certainly one of the the discussions that we're having right now in the US is how can we not only seise the assets not only identify all the assets that we can, but beyond that use the proceeds from the sales of those assets not to go back to the necessarily to the people of Russia that have been pillaged for years and years by these oligarchs, but specifically to the people in Ukraine or those refugees who are fleeing from Ukraine. Can we use the proceeds of the sales of those assets to actually go to help those people on the ground that are now suffering more than they ever should have because of the brutality out of Moscow? Now we don't have that finalised. We don't know exactly what the mechanisms are going to be for that. But I wouldn't be surprised if Washington, Ottawa, Brussels and London begin formulating some kind of broader fund, broader funding mechanism to make sure that all those ill gotten gains go to those who are actually directly suffering from Moscow right now.

DM: Casey, just a few seconds left. But but in a brief word, I mean, the question everyone's asking is targeting the oligarchs going to do anything to stop Russia's war on Ukraine.

CASEY MICHEL: I think the unfortunate response is right now, no, in the short term it won't. President Putin has made his decision and we are in four dark days ahead. And I don't know that there's necessarily anything that is going to dissuade him right now. But in the mid-term, in the long term, this is absolutely the right decision that should have taken place years ago, and he should have been part of this broader sanctions regime that we're now seeing unfold. We're now seeing plastered upon the Russian economy. And again, it has to take part. It has to take place with these broader pro transparency reforms in order to have its full effect on the short term. No, it's not going to have an effect on President Putin's decision making, but in the mid-term, in the long term, absolutely. This is the right decision. The more of it, the better, the stronger, the better. And it needs to come alongside all of these pro transparency reforms that those of us on the campaigning side have been calling for for years and years.

DM: Thanks for your analysis on this.

CASEY MICHEL: Yeah, thanks, Duncan.

DM: Casey Michel is an investigative reporter and the author of American Kleptocracy How the U.S. Created the World's Greatest Money Laundering Scheme in History. CBC News is next. And then.

SOUNDCLIP

I think younger students have had a relationship with this concept of global panic, global dynamics, global pandemics, global death that maybe a lot of us didn't have to have.

DM: four kids. Right now, things can look pretty grim and even scary out in the world. When we come back, how to talk with your kids about the war in Ukraine? I'm Duncan McCue and you're listening to The Current.

Back To Top »

This Toronto teacher uses a photo of his mom, asleep in a Kyiv subway station, to help kids understand the war

Guests: Constantine Kosyachkov, Ane Lemche,

DM: Hi, I'm Duncan McCue, and you're listening to The Current. Still to come, birds of prey hold great meaning in many cultures around the world. For Rodney Stotts, these birds are the reason he's alive and 30 minutes the journey from a tough life in the inner city to Master Falconer. But first talking with kids about the war in Ukraine.

[Music: Theme]

DM: When war breaks out, children have a lot of questions and anxieties.

SOUNDCLIP

CHILD 1: Questions about the war. Why is Russia in the Ukraine? Does Canada have anything to do with it? When do you see the world will stop? If I was in Ukraine, what would I do?

PRODUCER: So this is Ethan. So how do you feel about the war?

CHILD 2: I feel kinda like you feel sad.

PRODUCER: How come?

CHILD 2: Because people die in wars.

PRODUCER: Because people die in wars?

CHILD 2: Yes.

CHILD 1: I knew we thought that Ukraine was going to end, but Russia's took over. And it is really, really sad.

DM: Five year old Ethan and seven year old Aiden talking about the war in Ukraine. Older children like 14 year old Mitchell have a lot on their minds, too.

SOUNDCLIP

It's definitely scary to think if there's going to be a nuclear war because it is a possibility and just the the fact that we have the capabilities to destroy civilisation and that it's edging ever closer to that is very scary.

DM: This weekend, at a rally in Winnipeg against the war, there was a special tent set up for kids full of crayons and paints and other fun stuff to do.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: We want a colour we can pull up another chair, if you'd like.

VOICE 2: Now I got the blue and yellow, but you can have any colours you want.

[Chatter]

DM: The organisers at this rally. Wanted to create a safe space for children. School psychologist Ivana Lukey and Jordy Skinner were there helping out.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: There's a huge diversity and the questions that are coming from kids of all ages. One parent that I was just talking with mentioned that her children were asking her questions. They're overhearing conversations. So they asked her What are missiles? And so, you know, just some really heavy questions like that.

VOICE 2: I think one of the hardest questions we've had so far is when is it going to end or when is it going to stop? There is a lot of unknown, and we know that can be really, really challenging for children and parents.

VOICE 3: We have six grandchildren, and they're terrified. Why? That's the biggest question, Barbara. Why? Why are they doing that? We're such a peace loving nation and everybody's so kind. And why are they doing this? What I worry the most about my grandchildren is that they would lose hope.

VOICE 4: We keep it pretty honest. There are some bad guys over seas right now trying to take over another country. We are safe here in Canada. She cries a little like just not knowing kind of when she sees us getting very emotional, like we are very emotional that we haven't heard from our family out there. We don't know where they are right now. So my mom cries. Her grandma cries a lot. It is heartbreaking.

VOICE 6: I have two kids and they are seven and 10 years old. The hardest question I asked so far by them is What are nuclear weapons? What is nuclear war? And that's a that's a pretty heavy question and not an easy one to answer.

DM: Constantine Kosyachkov has been grappling with kids questions about the war and his own worries about his family back in Ukraine. He teaches grade one and two in Toronto, Constantine. Good morning.

CONSTANTINE KOSYACHKOV: Good morning, Duncan.

DM: First off, just tell us about your mother and she's still in Ukraine. How's she doing?

CONSTANTINE KOSYACHKOV: Yes, my mom is in Kyev, Ukraine, the capital city of Ukraine, and she's in downtown. Very dangerous spot. Sometimes she has to go to the subway when the bombing start, and she still may not make it because it's seven minutes walk from her place to the subway, and if she really runs fast, she has a chance, if not, she might not. It's very personal, very emotional situation.

DM: How hard is it for you to be so far away knowing what she's going through?

CONSTANTINE KOSYACHKOV: [Unintelliglbe] and then you can start doing things. So I have a lot of supporting people around me, and that really helps, and I'm trying to do my best to get my mom out.

DM: I'm glad to hear that you've got that support there. You've got a photo of your mom sleeping on the floor in the subway station. I understand you've used that photo when you're teaching your students about what's happening there. How do you use it?

CONSTANTINE KOSYACHKOV: That brings a personal flavour to the conversation, because when you talk about the war that is abstract somewhere on the other part of the world, it does not relate to students had actually, to be honest, it doesn't relate at all sometimes. However, one, you know someone when you know someone, you know, when you know someone who is in the subway because of the bombing, then it makes a whole difference. So, yes, yes, I show this picture to my students, and yes, I feel I see the reaction. They're emotional one, and I think that matters.

DM: That's got to be touchy, though. I mean, they must then express concern for you and your family.

CONSTANTINE KOSYACHKOV: Sure. Like that.

DM: Hey, sorry, I was just saying that it's going to be difficult, I mean, they must connect and express concern for you and your family as well.

CONSTANTINE KOSYACHKOV: Yes. People are asking me constantly, What what should we do? And parents are in touch. And kids are in touch. So with parents, of course, I just direct them to the Red Cross and to government organisation in Ukraine. For kids, you know, we just think how we can change the world because kids are our future when they grow up, what the world like. Will it be terrible take to leave or will it be more peaceful and hopefully more kind place.

DM: If your students are all fairly young? I mean, grade one, grade two. Where do you draw the line as a teacher on on too much detail when they ask questions like, You know, what are missiles? What is nuclear war?

CONSTANTINE KOSYACHKOV: Definitely, I'll try. Try not to go too far with this age category, I don't talk about nuclear war much. I see that that might trigger fears that old four years, that kids already have. So I'm trying to keep it short conversation short. I'm trying to end it up positive because there's always hope, there's always solution. And yes, war is a tragic, tragic event. However, the and the war will not last forever and it will end, and we hope that people will be saved and Ukraine will be protected.

DM: Do you have a sense of they express to you how they're feeling about it, your students?

CONSTANTINE KOSYACHKOV: Yes, I had some parents contact me. I had Stafford, Chester, who was very, very supportive. I talked to people every day. Plus, of course, lots of conversation on social media, both in Canada and in Ukraine.

DM: What about the school board? I mean, are they giving you any resources in terms of how to talk with with kids about these difficult subjects?

CONSTANTINE KOSYACHKOV: I think it is. He was very supportive. On the second day of war on Friday, February 25th, they issued a document supporting Ukrainian communities. That gives us steps and suggestions of how to talk to students such as like limited exposure to media coverage or talk about specific things you can do to make yourself feel secure. So it's very, very practical, very short document that I would really, really recommend everyone to read and support a Ukrainian community's attitudes.

DM: You talk about limiting media exposure. I mean, I've dealt with this as a parent. You know, you hear a bad story on the radio and you turn it down. But but then they also know what's going on. They're not blind to it. So so how? What's where's the balance there?

CONSTANTINE KOSYACHKOV: I think every parent should know their kid the best. So it's not even the intensity, but it's pretty much the time. I don't want six year old kids to listen to the news for more than a couple of minutes ago. And then parents should be close by our trust adults just to express and explain what is happening. So it's more about interpretation than about facts information. I don't think kids that age of six and seven needs lots of information, but they need someone who would interpret this information and bring some comfort at the end of it, because that's very important not to traumatise a kid and still not kind of hide information from a child.

DM: You mentioned trauma. Are any of your students affected by the conflict themselves? I mean, did it do any of them have family in this part of the world

CONSTANTINE KOSYACHKOV: in our school have lots of students from former Yugoslavia, so they might not remember any events themselves, of course, but their parents do, and I'm very considerate about that. I know that some kids come from families who had to escape the former Yugoslavia to Canada.

DM: You mentioned having support and people who understand other other adults, other teachers. But but I mean, Constantine, I mean, you're you're worrying about your family as well. And so I wonder, how do you make sure that you take care of yourself, that you get the support that you need even after, you know, as as you're looking after the well-being of a class full of children?

CONSTANTINE KOSYACHKOV: You know, I'm I'm a follower of Jesus, and I know that it's on the way from my mom to. Escape and to stay life, and it's the same for me, you know, I know when you're helpless, you definitely have trust to higher power. You definitely pray. You know, and I pray a lot. So that's my main remedy.

DM: Constantine, thank you very much for sharing your story and telling us a little bit about how it's going in your classroom. You take care.

CONSTANTINE KOSYACHKOV: I appreciate the time. Thank you so much. Thank you.

DM: Constantine Kosyachkov is an elementary school teacher in Toronto. Speaking with kids about war in a way that makes them feel safe is a difficult balance. Ane Lemche knows well. She is a psychologist and child counsellor with the NGO Save the Children, and she joins me this morning from Copenhagen. Good morning.

ANE LEMCHE: Good morning, Duncan.

DM: Anna, what's the best way to start a conversation with a kid about what's happening in Ukraine right now?

ANE LEMCHE: Well, I mean, it all depends on the kid's age, obviously. But but really, to make the conversation open and non-judgmental and curious is a good place to start. Don't just assume that your kid knows a lot of detail or maybe doesn't know a lot of details. Be, you know, be curious if your kid has an age where he or she might be exposed to media coverage, such as social media. You know, you can just you could just ask, Hey, you know this, this conflict between Russia and Ukraine, what have you? You know, have you heard anything? What have you? Have you seen something? And then sometimes the kid will say, Yeah, you know, I actually saw this video or someone at school said this and this, and you can stop the conversation from there.

DM: Why is it important to start the conversation?

ANE LEMCHE: Most kids will have heard about this conflict. Obviously, very young kids may not, but but even I think kindergarten is some kindergarten kids will have because they have older that they have older siblings. So it's important not to leave your kid alone with thoughts and worries if they have heard about someone somewhere and maybe seen parents or the adults being concerned. Some of the media coverage, and certainly some of the conversations and videos on YouTube have a quite they're not meant for kids, and they have now quite alarming language such as World War and spreading conflict. And if you don't talk to kids about that, they will make up stories in their head and they will always be worse than what's actually going on.

DM: But you heard Constantine, I mean, really wrestling with with how much detail parents and teachers should give. What's your advice on that?

ANE LEMCHE: Again, depending on the kid's age, but generally speaking, the younger the child, the less detail very young children will. Only they need to be reassured. They need to be comforted. They need to know that yes, there is a conflict. And yes, some people are trying to perhaps get out of Ukraine. But listen, that's lots of people are working very hard to end this conflict, and in the end, it's going to it's going to be OK. Young kids, will they know, you know, they know from kindergarten, up from school, even from their families that when they have a conflict, then someone steps in and helps resolving it so they will understand this their request. Older kids might also, sorry, go ahead. No, it's just all the kids can handle more. You know, they can handle the more detail, they can handle a little bit more sort of nuance in the conversation, but definitely keep it simple.

DM: There were questions there, though, from from some of the children that I mean, I certainly have a difficult time answering. And I wonder, are there things that the parents shouldn't say or a level of detail that that's not helpful or could that it could even be traumatising?

ANE LEMCHE: Well, it's some of the questions that I heard is the questions like, what is what are you, what are nuclear weapons and what are you, what are and what are tanks and what sort of specific questions that relate to war? And sometimes that is sometimes a simple question is it better to say, Look, this is a kind of weapon? This is the kind of weapon that's sometimes used in war. Right now, it's not. It's not used at all because everybody knows it's not a good idea. And they're sort of into that and this kid has more questions. Sometimes we think as parents, perhaps that if we if we if if we give a detailed explanation that it was sort of satisfying, you know, to satisfy a kid's curiosity and maybe make the questions go away. But really normally what happens is that if we give more detail, the kid will have more questions. And so it's a balance between keeping it honest and actually providing some information that you might need to reassure your kid, but also not to open, you know, new avenues of things of what might be scary and might raise more questions.

DM: One of the thing that has become very scary about this conversation in the past couple of weeks is the fact that nuclear weapons are being discussed. And I mean, of course, there are previous generations of children who spent along a lot of time worrying about nuclear war. But that's big. I mean, that's a very scary prospect. How much detail is too much when it comes to to what might happen, what could happen if there was a nuclear war?

ANE LEMCHE: Most details are too much, I think, especially for younger kids. I mean, if it's a teenager, you might have a more balanced conversation, but even saying I just need to be reassured and they need to know this is not going to happen, even if you may as parents think, well, you know, I don't know what's going to happen. You know, I can't predict your future. You still need to be. You still need to represent the hope that this is not going to escalate beyond the point of stopping it. So what you need to do when you face your children is to be confident, even if you are balanced in the fact that, yes, there is such a thing as using, for instance, nuclear weapons in a war. But this is not going to happen because the people engaged in this will have more sense than that. And you may think, Well, how can I know that? Will you need to represent the hope that your kids need to leave too late to be able to lead their lives and not be concerned about the future? And if you yourself as a parent, if you feel scared about this or you feel anxious, you need to speak to other adults about it and not to not to your kids.

DM: There were some children who were asking When's it going to end? And I mean, there are a lot of people that are asking that question. So, so I mean, on the one hand, you know, you're suggesting that we should give children hope. But then on the other hand, there's a great deal of uncertainty here. So so what? What can or should adults say when children ask when's there's going to be over?

ANE LEMCHE: And I think that's a really fair question. And it's also fair to say, I don't know because because you don't and and to sort of maybe two to say, you know, look, I understand, did you ask this question because I really wish it was overdue, but I don't know when it ends. I know that a lot of people are working very hard to make it end. But I don't know when that's going to happen. So maybe, maybe instead of sort of focussing on an end point, rather focus on helping your kids be able to live their own lives and feel that it's OK to be, you know, to be happy and thinking about something else because this could, you know, let's face it, this could take a while.

DM: That's a really good point, too, about about parents not being a whole, knowing not having the answers all the time and admitting that to their children, there's there's a lot of advice about reassuring kids so that they know that it's not their problem to solve. Why is that important?

ANE LEMCHE: It's important because most kids are very good at taking on responsibility, even if they may not seem to be. If if kids see or hear about other kids, other people being hurt or being in danger and something as incomprehensible as well, many kids will have an impulse to do something or to or to sort of find more information to to in an attempt to reassure themselves. But it doesn't really work that way. The more information you gather about something that is very violent than the more concern you will get. So it's very important as a parent or as an adult to say to a kid, Look, I understand that this concerns you and I can tell that you, you know, you get upset if we talk about it or if you hear something about it, and that's completely natural. But you need, but you have a responsibility in your own life to to to live it and not to be overpowered by other peoples, by the tragedy that's happening out other people's lives. And we can, you know, we can make small gestures, such as a child. We can maybe writes my write notes or take pictures like the like in the tent that this that you talked about earlier. But in the end, this is an adult conflict, even if it does affect kids and it's adults responsibility to end it.

DM: I like that suggestion about about painting pictures or drawing pictures because, you know, whether it's young kids or even teenagers, I mean, sometimes it's it's not always easy for kids to recognise and describe their own feelings. What should parents do in terms of trying to encourage their kids to to express themselves if if they're if they're worrying about war?

ANE LEMCHE: I think actually the first thing to be mindful of is to shoot, you know, so try to try to be sure if your kid is worrying about war. Some kids won't be. I mean, some kids will maybe see something on the news or hear talk about war and actually think it's kind of cool. And this doesn't, you know, it doesn't make them wrong. It just means it's just their level of development and their level of interest. So don't just just make sure you're not short of making it making a kid draw something that they don't really need to be drawing. But otherwise, if you have a kid who is who is concerned and who is filled with all these emotions and. Thoughts about maybe the kids of the families in Ukraine, definitely drawing, writing short stories, even talking about it, or just sort of expressing them in what is actually so many kids very helpful.

DM: Any last advice for parents as they're as they're watching the news and chatting with their children?

ANE LEMCHE: I think that parents should parents should just have a look at themselves just for one moment. Take a deep breath. And before you enter into a conversation about your kids about this war, maybe think, you know, am I the right person to do this? Not because you're not a good parents, but because you can be very concerned yourself. And if you are very overwhelmed by your own emotions, then you have the risk of giving that that that sense of being scared to your children. And it's OK. You know, it's OK to reach out for help to, you know, to another adult, to your child's teacher or someone else and say, Look, I want my my kids have the opportunity to have this conversation about war, but I really don't think that I'm in the place to do this right now. I think in times like these, reaching out and supporting each other is is very helpful and it's it's going to be helpful to our kids as well.

DM: Thanks for walking us through this. You're welcome. An Olympic is a psychologist and child counsellor with Save the Children. And if you're a parent or a teacher and you've come across some good resources or you got some good tips and strategies about talking about what's going on in Ukraine with your young children or your teenager, let us know. Tweet at The Current CBC or go to CBC to slash The Current and send us an email. Well, coming up after your regional update from drug dealer to Master Falconer, how an intimate connexion with birds of prey saved Rodney Stotts. Plus, 100 years later, the legacy of Canada's first female member of Parliament Agnes MacPhail The Current is back in 90 seconds. I'm Duncan McCue. Stick around.

Back To Top »

From drug dealing to master falconer, one man's life-changing journey

Guests: Johanna Mizgala, Rodney Stotts

DM: I'm Duncan McCue, and you're listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

There was a hawk salad in a tree. So we set the traps out P.G. County Police Car Road up the street. The guy said, What are you doing? I said, I trap hawks, owls, falconers, I'm a falconer. His first comment was, You're black.

[Song]

DM: That is, Rodney Stotts in a documentary about him, he is a thin black man, he's wearing a thick leather glove and there's a Harris hawk perched on it. Rodney Stotts is one of very few black master falconers in the United States. His new book is called Bird Brother, a Falconers Journey and the Healing Power of Wildlife Rodney. Good morning.

RODNEY STOTTS: Good morning, sir. How are you? Thank you for having me.

DM: Thank you for joining us. I saw some amazing video of you and you are holding... I mean, you have owls on your arm. Eagles, red tail hawks. What's it like to have a raptor on your arm?

RODNEY STOTTS: It is the most fulfilling special. There's really indescribable. It's this overwhelming calm at peace with nature really doesn't matter what's going on in your life. The moment you pick that bird up is going to change.

DM: You describe being a piece. I could see you looking into their eyes and it it does seem peaceful.

RODNEY STOTTS: There's a love with me and all of my animals that it's hard to describe to people when I explain it. I talk to them. They talk to me. I hear them. They tell me when they want to go out, when they hungry, when they don't want to do so. It's the same as if you're talking to your child.

DM: Your book is called a falconers journey. It's been a long journey. Rodney, before you started caring raptors around on your arm show. So take me back. Can you tell me when you first started to to feel a pull toward nature?

RODNEY STOTTS: Well, I've always loved nature. I've always loved the outdoors. I've always loved animals. I've never really been a people person. I've just always been around some sort of animal all my life. I got a job with Earth Conservation Corps. We were doing a lot of work on the Anacostia River, which was one of the most polluted rivers in the country and a tributary called Lower Beaver Dam. Creek ran out into this river system that was choked out by 5000 tires, car engines and motorcycles. I mean, people just use it as a dump. So we started cleaning that mile stretch of the tributary and started seeing beavers and great blue herrings and fish and frogs and everything coming back. And it was this feeling of just like a mother giving birth. In a sense, you were just seeing all of this new life knowing that you were responsible for bringing it back. It just was one of the most beautiful blessings I've ever had in my life.

DM: So that, you know, working with Earth Conservation Corps sounds like it was just life changing. But I mean, you grew up in the housing projects in D.C. and not a lot of nature in the housing projects. Were you connecting at all to nature when when as a young man?

RODNEY STOTTS: My mom used to take us to a place called Anacostia Park. I mean, we used to stay there pretty much every weekend and we would have cookouts and basketball, skating and everything. And they had all these little trails and little creeks and tributaries that came off that we would just go and capital crayfish and minerals and water moccasins and a little garden snakes and a little bit of everything. So I've always been around animals where we lived, even in one of the housing projects where we lived, there was a creek right beside us, so we used to stay in their tax increases and I just always loved to be outside.

DM: but not a lot of opportunities to make a living in nature, though I would imagine where I mean, you say at one point in the book that there's three options for kids in the projects where you grew up either pro sports using drugs or dealing drugs. You ended up dealing them.

RODNEY STOTTS: Yes. I ended up dealing drugs for a long while, actually. And someone actually snitched on me and I got arrested. I think at that time that that happened to me, that was the best thing that could have happened to me because it gave me time to really sit down and evaluate what was more important in my life and knowing that no matter what went on, an animal always played an important role in it. That was one of the biggest turning points that made me just decide that's what I had to do.

DM: There's this remarkable scene at the beginning of your book where you're in the middle of a drug deal and you look out and see a red tailed hawk and you describe that for me.

RODNEY STOTTS: Oh yeah, definitely. We were in a project. I went to one of the guys homes that was a bigger deal than I was who I was getting my stuff from. I was standing there and he has this big window in the living room and I saw this bird fly across. I knew it wasn't a regular bird. I didn't know at the time that it was a real tail hawk or Reyes. So I just saw this huge hawk. I just knew it was a hawk, and I stood there and everyone was saying, Come on, come on, you know, put your money up on my whole lawn and I'm watching this bird. People were looking at me like, that was crazy because you're standing there, you have a gun, they have guns, money, drugs. Everything's there, you're standing here looking at a bird and not watching the people behind you with guns.

DM: Hmm. Did you identify with that hawk?

RODNEY STOTTS: In the sense of when I saw it fly across what really hit me was the fact that it was this predator, it was this apex predator and it just looked so beautiful, so harmless, just the beauty of it, just when it landed and looked at when it took off and the power and everything about it just, I don't know, it was some like blowing out your birthday candles, in a sense. I don't know, that excitement that comes along with it.

DM: So, I mean, in the book, you yourself described kind of black guy from the ghetto hustle and drugs. You end up in jail. At what point do you go? Yeah, I'd like to be a master falconer.

RODNEY STOTTS: Well, actually, what happened was I was working with the non-profit Earth Conservation Corps and we had injured raptors. So we were I was doing rap there, hesitation for about 15 years before I became a falconer. When I came to them, I asked them, Why do we only have birds that are injured and we only take care of people who've been adjudicated? So why can't we catch these young people before they become adjudicated? The same way we can get these birds before they become injured and show the difference? The same differences in someone stepping in and helping these young people and stepping in and helping these birds before they become injured and these young people become a product of the system. They say, Well, you have to become a falconer. I said, OK, well, I'll become a falconer. And I must have told the biggest joke in the world because everyone started laughing and looking at me all crazy, and I had no idea that that was some oxymoron black falcon. I didn't know that there was a law that said I could be a falcon or something. I just didn't understand what was so funny.

DM: Well, you know, I'm chuckling a bit. But but what was what kind of reaction did you get? Being a black fella who's who says, I want to be a falconer,

RODNEY STOTTS: I'll believe me when I would call sponsors like one guy said, You sound like you're a black man. I said, I am. He said, Are you sure you want to be a falconer? A black people don't fly birds. They eat em. These ain't chickens. These are hawks and falcons. And I just burst out laughing. It was funny to me. And it just blew me the kick off. When I tell people I'm going to~ do something, I don't do it to prove you wrong. I do it because I said I could do it.

DM: Well, and you were darn well interested in getting to know raptors better. So what was how difficult was it for you to find a sponsor to to to learn, to become a master falconer?

RODNEY STOTTS: Well, it was kind of difficult in the beginning until I talked with a lady named Susan Schumacher who runs Album Rescue, where she was going to partner up with our organisation. She's a rehab and she's also a master falconer. And when I explained to her what was going on, she said, Rodney, I will smile for you and I say, you will do something. And she said, I surely will. You have all the knowledge and skills you've been doing this and I want to see you succeed. And sure enough, she sponsored me. I went to fish and Wildlife, took the exam, called her immediately. When I left, I was crying out of losing. I pass. I passed. She said I already knew he was going to pass that bill, Jameer and the way she said it was just all the confidence in the world and it just made the biggest difference.

DM: Wow. So so you get your the papers you need and then you need to get a bird, so. So tell me about tank. You're your first, uh, the first time you set out to trap and hold your first bird.

RODNEY STOTTS: That was the most fulfilling experience in falconry was catching. The very first bird ever caught was a North American kestrel, and I named that one after Monique, the young lady who was raped and murdered that work with us the first retail that I was playing. And then that bird did everything together two weeks before I was going to release him. He actually took off, which was a good thing because when your bird leagues like that, that bird is usually going to make it. And so I was going to release them in two weeks. I just wanted to feed them up and have a good time before I let them go. Took them out one day when he was a little heavy and let them go.

DM: What do you do? Where do you keep your your raptors?

RODNEY STOTTS: Well, you build an aviary, which is a house for your birds. The fish and wildlife will come out and do an inspection and make sure that everything is right for the birds the size that they're supposed to be. Aviaries, everything. Once that passes, that's where you'll keep your bird that I have one bird that actually stays in my bedroom. I have three bedrooms in my house and there's a bird actually and one of my bedrooms, so they'll stay pretty much anywhere you are you.

DM: There's quite this cast of characters of of raptors. There's there's Monique and Nanny and Mr. Hoots and Chuck and Gloria. You named a lot of them specifically for four people that you knew why.

RODNEY STOTTS: Because most of them were named after people that have lost you, dad, twice, once when you physically die. And the last time someone mentions your name, I don't believe in letting that person's name not be mentioned again as long as I'm here. I've always heard, you know, a person's gone but never forgotten. And you've never heard that. Her son mentioned again. So I just don't believe in letting those people go. Love is in the heart. The physical is just a sale and so it's a healing thing for me.

DM: And I mean, you're taking these eagles and hawks. I mean, a lot of loss in your community, but you're taking them to young children and showing them the power of not only nature, but but raptors in particular. What's that like when you when you bring when you bring an eagle in amongst a group of kids from the projects?

RODNEY STOTTS: The excitement, the fear, the howling and I mean, you go through every emotion with those young people, older people, anybody really, when it's the young people, they are super excited to me. I always say that they're like sponges. Their brains are like sponges. They have search for knowledge. So the more knowledge you can give them now to help them later. If I had someone to show me certain things when I was younger, maybe some of the choices that I made in my life, I wouldn't have made to have these young people understand that because you are black or because you're from the projects or because you're not wealthy, you can still have and do and prosper just as anyone else can. That's the one thing I love to see in their faces. That excitement of them saying, I can do this, I can really do. I can have this, I can. And I see that light up knowing that at least probably 80 percent of them have never even heard. I'm proud of you before.

DM: Well, you mentioned, you mentioned wealth. I mean, the wealthier, whiter neighbourhoods. They're the ones that have access to the trees in the parks, you know, and then the projects you got, you got concrete. Yeah, I mean, the term is environmental racism, right? I mean, black communities, indigenous communities often face this kind of of racism. What kind of impact does it have when you go in to to talk to kids and introduce them to to these birds?

RODNEY STOTTS: Well, the one thing like I try to explain it is the road that I was on and how it can actually change you if you allow it. That's the one thing that I've tried to explain to everyone. I never say if I can do something, you can do it. I always tell people, if you have the determination and the will to do it, then you can do it because I did something don't mean you can do it because you did. Something doesn't mean that I can do it. And if I put forth the same determination, will aggressiveness in my heart, I should be able to accomplish anything that I want to accomplish. So when you going in and you're telling these young people that and I explain to them, I'm not rich, not by a long shot, I'm not a millionaire, a thousand. I'm not even 100. I don't have anything. What I do know is having a little and knowing someone that has nothing. You give them a little of your little. So both of you have a little.

DM: Do you see many kids who say, Yeah, I want to be a master falconer like you, Mr. Rodney.

RODNEY STOTTS: Oh yes. There's a documentary actually called the Falconer, and I have another one called Life of a Black Falconer. And you'll see to see what a young kids as any young girl, her name is my precious. When I first met her, she ran it. She said she wanted to be a veterinarian. Then when we finished, she said she wanted to be a falconer and a veterinarian. I told her, When you turned fifteen years old, Houseparty, this little girl calls me every year on her birthday to remind me that she's almost 50.

DM: She's just, she's just jumping to start?

RODNEY STOTTS: Yes. And I love that, though.

DM: Let me ask you about healing the the animals. I mean, one of the things that you did with the Earth Conservation Corps is is bring back bald eagles to the Anacostia River. What's that been like for you trying to to rehabilitate the Raptor populations?

RODNEY STOTTS: When we brought back the bald eagles, I didn't really realise how important it was at first and tell other people started really telling me what we've really accomplished because to me, it was just a job at the time, seeing them every year, seeing the people naming them the news, people come up and they'll name them and the eagles and lead two eggs, and they never tell people how the Eagles actually got back. And I used to always call the news people every year and explain to them that there were nine young black people that bought these eagles back. So when y'all want to come out and say, Let's name these eagles, let's do that, tell people how they actually got back here. Because the Anacostia River, the last nesting pair left in the early 50s because of the DDT in the water. Now, all of a sudden, eagles are back. So there had to be a lot of work done on the river first in order to sustain that light. They never tell that story.

DM: Well, Rodney, that's no small story. I mean, nine young black people bring him back bald eagles to the Anacostia. I mean, given where you came from, when you were, when you were a young person yourself, did you ever did you even think you'd make it to your 40s? I mean, did you think you were going to be a falconer?

RODNEY STOTTS: No. I didn't think I was going to make it pay updating the statistics at that time. You wouldn't make it past 18 if you made it to 18. You wouldn't make it to 21. If you made it to 21, you wouldn't make it to 25, you made it to 25. Your chances of living went up dramatically because you should have been a little older now not to be out there doing certain things.

DM: So what does your story say then about the healing power of wildlife and the eagles and hawks and falcons in particular?

RODNEY STOTTS: To me, it says eagles fly over storms they don't fly through, they'll fly over a storm. So that's how I look at it. Any storm that comes my way fly over in life. We all are going to go through things is how you take those things that's going to affect the rest of your life.

DM: Well, Rodney, you know what? Amongst my people, Mikasa is what we call eagles, and they take our prayers to the creator. And and I just want to thank you for sharing this story with us today. Take care.

RODNEY STOTTS: You too, sir.

DM: Rodney Stotts is a master falconer and the author of Bird Brother, A Falconers Journey and the Healing Power of Wildlife.

[Music]

DM: I'm Duncan McCue sitting in for Matt Galloway, who's in Poland right now, and you're listening to The Current.

Speaker 3: On March 8th, 1922, history was made in this chamber at the opening of the first session of the 14th Parliament, Agnes MacPhail, the first woman elected to our House of Commons, took her seat as a member of Parliament for the riding of Grey South East. One woman along two 234 men.

DM: 100 years ago. Looking back now, it's hard to believe that Canada's first female MP took her seat to just one century ago. Joanna Matt Galloway has been looking into Agnes MacPhail's life and legacy. She's the curator of the House of Commons. Good morning.

JOHANNA MIZGALA: Good morning.

DM: You must have gotten nowhere during all your research. So, so tell us who was Agnes MacPhail?

JOHANNA MIZGALA: I did get to know her a little bit. So Agnes MacPhail started out as a school teacher, but she eventually became quite involved in politics. Joining first, the sort of women's association of the United Farm Workers of Ontario, but eventually putting her name forward as the candidate for the writing of Great Southeast. And she won the nomination. And then on December six, 1921, she was the first woman Canadian MP elected to the House of Commons.

DM: You mentioned farming. How much did farming politics play a role in kind of forming her her sensibilities?

JOHANNA MIZGALA: I think it played a huge part. I mean, first and foremost, she ran as a candidate, as a candidate for the UFO. So this was a time at which in 1921, it was the first election where we didn't just have liberals and conservatives elected to the House, but also independents. And I think this desire for social reform and desire for living wages and bettering conditions for labourers is something that was really bred in the bone for her, so to speak.

DM: You mentioned 1921, that was also, I mean, incredibly, it's hard to imagine now, but that was the first year that women had the right to vote. Correct?

JOHANNA MIZGALA: That was the first year that some Canadian women over the age of 21 had the vote. Federally provincial politics played out differently across the country. So we have women in Manitoba who are able to vote provincially in 1916, but women in Quebec, for instance, who weren't allowed to vote provincially until 1940. And then, of course, voting rights plays a part with class and race and gender. As I said, not all women had the right to vote federally. In 1921, for instance, Asian Canadian women didn't get the vote until 1948, and indigenous women in Canada didn't get the vote until 1960.

DM: And so there's Agnes MacPhail in 1921, and as we just heard, she was one woman amongst 234 men, and it stayed that way for 14 years before another woman was elected MP. So what was that like for her? I mean, was she disheartened or did she take strength from that?

JOHANNA MIZGALA: I think it was incredibly lonely for her, but we know that she was somebody who really wanted to be there and wanted to do good. So we know from the from her sort of early recollections of coming to Ottawa, she came to Ottawa when she was 31. She'd never been here before, so she would have gotten off at the train station across from the shuttle area, walked up to parliament on Wellington Street. Parliament had just opened in 1940. In 1920, the new building after the fire, but the Peace Tower was still under construction and we know that she herself said she was so overcome by the beauty of this place and the magnitude of it all that she felt like she would burst into tears when she actually made her way into the building and into the opposition lobby. She recalls that all the men stood up, you know, when she walked into the room and she said to them, You know, please sit down, I'm here to do my job and I'm here to walk around. And and then even in the Hansard of the day, we know that at the opening of that 14th parliament, the speaker addressed the room and said, first 'Madam' and then members of the chamber and all of the sort of first speeches of that first parliament. The other people in the room would. All make reference to her and talk about how, you know, now we have a woman amongst us and it will make our debate more genteel and I mean, it's it's kind of comical when you read it today. Interestingly enough, though, her first speech, she talks about work she wants to get to work. She doesn't make mention of the fact that she is this lone woman amongst these 234 men.

DM: So we can get a sense of what how her male colleagues were treating her. What did Canadians think of her?

JOHANNA MIZGALA: Well, we know from contemporary newspaper accounts that they made a lot of mention of her, her hair and her clothes.

DM: And some things don't change.

JOHANNA MIZGALA: Exactly. But she did make notice, and she had won her riding quite handily as men. She was instrumental in developing certain key pieces of legislation, so I think she was admired from the beginning. But I was struck by how lonely it must have been for her to be the only one and to and, you know, 14 years means that she went through several elections as the only one.

DM: And she really did champion. I mean, you mentioned the labour causes that she championed the rights of farmers and miners, but also, I mean, I'm thinking of that, you know, the famous heritage minutes. I'm thinking of the work she did with with prison reform. And I mean, just incredibly groundbreaking work.

JOHANNA MIZGALA: Absolutely. And I mean, there again, she was sort of criticised by her fellow members that perhaps she was a bit too weak and constitution to be dealing with some of these severe matters. But it was incredibly important to her that she change the injustices that she saw in the prison system. She visited the Kingston Penitentiary. She was shocked and appalled with some of the things she saw and made several recommendations on how to change things and ultimately that became part of the legislation. It also, I think if we combine sort of her desire to push forward equality for women and then also prison reform, I think that is partly why she was instrumental with the founding of the Elizabeth Fry Society, where she's looking particularly at women prisoners and the kinds of things that they had to endure.

DM: Election one hundred years ago. Why is it important today?

JOHANNA MIZGALA: Well, I think it's important today, in part because we have to be conscious of the fact that there's still so much work to do to make space and for people to be able to see themselves within parliament. And if they don't see themselves there to be able to ask, why aren't they there? I think that, you know, somebody may open the door, but that door has to stay open.

DM: Johanna, thank you so much for telling us about Agnes MacPhail.

JOHANNA MIZGALA: Thank you very much. It's been a real pleasure.

DM: Johanna Mizgala is the curator of the House of Commons. And, of course, Happy International Women's Day. That's our programme for today. Stay tuned to Radio One for q today. Dolly Parton is Tom Power's guest talking about her first novel. It's called Run Rose Run. What can't really do? Goodness. Tomorrow, Matt Galloway will be here with you hosting a special edition of The Current from Poland. He's met Ukrainians fleeing the war and people at the border to help them, and he's talked with people moving in the other direction into Ukraine to fight. You'll hear those conversations tomorrow. We'll leave you for today with music from a little girl in Kyev. Her name is Amelia. She's been stuck in a bomb shelter with her family, but it hasn't stopped her from sharing her voice. A video of her performing Let It Go from the movie Frozen has gone viral. I'm Duncan McCue, chi miigwech. Thanks for listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

[Song]

Back To Top »

Provide Transcript Feedback

CBC would like to acknowledge the support of the Broadcasting Accessibility Fund.

Tuesday March 8, 2022 Transcript

More Stories Like This