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The AIH Transcript For March 7, 2022

[hosts]Gillian Findlay, Chris Howden[/hosts]

GILLIAN FINDLAY: Hello, I'm Gillian Findlay.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden, this is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

GF: Soldiering on. The mayor of Ukraine's embattled capital says Kyiv's residents remain ready to defend their city and their country against a powerful aggressor.

CH: Taking fuel from the fire. Lithuania's former Prime Minister tells us it's time Europeans rallied to replace Russian natural gas with energy from other sources -- and resistance from countries like Germany could cost Ukrainians their lives.

GF: questioning the questioners. A lawyer for families of victims of Nova Scotia's mass shooting says his clients are becoming more and more disillusioned that an ongoing inquiry will give them the answers they need.

CH: Nightmare scenario. The brother of an Afghan-Canadian woman running the Dream Voice Act NGO in Afghanistan says she's been arrested by the Taliban -- despite government promises she'd be free to move around.

GF: Underground phenomenon. A Manitoba metal detectorist says he was thrilled to return a rare find to the family of its one time owner -- despite discovering that an entire ocean lay between them.

CH: And… speaker of the devil. A new study finds that when we listen to the radio through headphones instead of speakers, hosts are more relatable and persuasive -- which makes me wonder if we're always getting a fair hearing?

CH: As It Happens, the Monday edition. Radio that's always working the phones.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Ukraine: Mayor Kyiv, Nadima Noor Detention, Winnipeg Metal Detectorist

Ukraine: Mayor Kyiv

Guest: Vitali Klitschko

CH: The defenders of Kyiv are digging in. Amid warnings tonight that Russian forces are preparing a new push to capture the Ukrainian capital, soldiers have built hundreds of checkpoints leading into the city. Some consist of stacks of tires. And others are hardened with concrete or two-story-high piles of sandbags. Meanwhile, a third round of talks between Ukrainian and Russian officials ended without any breakthroughs. Vitali Klitschko is the mayor of Kyiv. That's where we reached him.

GF: Mayor Klitschko President Zelensky is warning of a major new attack on Kyiv. Are you seeing any signs of a new Russian offensive where you are today?

VITAL KLITSCHKO: It's not secret as targets for Russian aggression, aggressors is capital of Ukraine, Kyiv. And that's why a lot of forces, military forces, Russian forces, come to Kyiv. It's thousands of tanks, hundreds of thousand Russian soldiers around Kyiv. They want to make their circle around our city. But we defend our family, we defend our children, we defend our houses, we defend our future.

GF: You say that they want to encircle the city. How are you preparing to defend the city right now from those attacks?

VK: I'm very impressed from the big patriotic wave. The people is musicians, doctors, actors. Right now, they… it's a huge patriotic wave, ready to defend families. Ready to fight.

GF: The world has watched in amazement these… these last two weeks as Ukrainians have defended their country. But at some point, you are facing a much bigger foe, a very large army. If these attacks come, when these attacks come, how long do you think you can hold out?

VK: Never, ever. They never coming to our city. Every building will be a military object. And we have… we have a lot of people who will be fighting. And I don't believe they are coming Kyiv inside the city. I don't believe in that.

GF: And I understand why you say that. But at some point, people with small arms fighting, you know, one of the… the certainly in the region, one of the most ferocious military advances. How realistically can you hope to sustain that?

VK: Realistically, I don't believe they tried to come. They have a plan, 12-day dam. They doesn't implement… Putin doesn't implement his plan. He try and do everything. I explain why. Because whole population in Ukraine, whole population in Ukraine helped us, if they see the tanks, if sees a soldier, they give the call, they help to our army. They… everybody. They came with the Ukrainian flags and tell to every Russian soldiers go back home, stop the war and psychological pressure. The Russian soldiers have a huge psychological pressure. They also are human, and they are also afraid. But they feel himself not comfortable in our land because they understand they is aggressor and the population is people in Ukraine very unfriendly to them.

GF: Today, the Ukrainian diplomats were continuing their negotiations with Russian officials, looking for at least a cease fire. What kind of settlement could come out of those talks that would be acceptable to you?

VK: Yes, of course, Russians told please, you Ukrainians have to accept Crimea and Donetsk, Lugansk is always our Russian territory. You have to agree to take this sanction away. But Russians are starting to talk. They understand they will never win this war.

GF: Is there anything that you would be prepared at this point to give up in order for the Russians to leave?

VK: Never give up.

GF: There's nothing that they could put on the table that you would be willing to… to sacrifice to walk away from?

VK: Good to talk to President Zelensky and talking about the negotiations, but I am more than sure I have to be not in the coast of Ukraine, of the Ukrainian side. It will be a nightmare if we accept the Russian aggression. It'd be promising thousands of people who died psychologically the Russian soldiers are destroyed. The key to win this war for Ukraine is international unity, unity of every democratic countries. Because we are fighting, not just for our country. We are fighting for values, we are fighting for principles, and we are fighting for democracy because we don't want back to USSR. We don't want back to Russian Empire. We see our future as part of European democratic countries.

GF: You are the mayor of your city, obviously, but you have also taken up arms. Describe for me some of the fighting that you have seen and witnessed yourself?

VK: Uh, yeah. Honest, every morning I wake up, wake up, and I hope it's everything what happens in the last week, two weeks, is nightmare. But I open my eye, and I see it's not. It's hard reality. The people, the city's empty, the people in the street, in the barricades in the street, the people go with the weapons. Woman's crying. Children is very afraid. The last two weeks totally changed our life… totally changed. We are a peaceful country, always was. But right now, we haven't another chance. We have to fight because we fight for our future, the future of our children.

GF: You mentioned the support of the West and that you feel that you are fighting this battle on behalf of the West. You're speaking to the people of Canada tonight. What is your message to… to Canadians?

VK: I have a message for everyone. Unity is the key to win this war. I want to say thank you so much, who support Ukraine, who support democracy, who support our country. Without you help, we can't survive -- no relationship with Russia. Russia is aggressors. Sanctions, political pressure, support Ukraine politically. Support Ukraine economically. And we need support with defensive weapons. Everyone want to see their freedom sky and peaceful sky above their head.

GF: Mayor Klitschko, I appreciate you taking the time to talk to us. I wish you and your city well.

VK: Thank you so much for your support. Big regards to Canada. And thank you for everyone who's keeping crossed their fingers for Ukraine, who help Ukraine, and we feel support from Canada. We know it's a huge diaspora, Ukrainian diaspora live in Canada. And we feel that. And I want to say we very appreciate. Thank you so much for everything what you're doing for our country.

GF: Thank you. Goodnight.

VK: Bye-bye.

CH: Vitali Klitschko is the mayor of Kyiv. That's where we reached him. And for more on that story, you can go to our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Vocalization]

Nadima Noor Detention

Guest: Dastaan Noor

CH: Nadima Noor has been held by the Taliban for more than three weeks. And her brother would like to know why. Ms. Noor is a Canadian citizen who has kept her Kabul-based NGO running, through the exodus of NATO and the takeover of the Taliban. In February, she was picked up from her office by a group of gunmen, according to The Washington Post. The CBC hasn't been able to confirm those reports. But her brother, Dastaan Noor, says that she's been held at the Ministry of the Interior without charges ever since. We reached Dastaan Noor in Ottawa.

GF: Mr. Noor, you have been in touch with Nadima. How's she doing?

DASTAAN NOOR: Nadima, she's doing well now. Her spirit is up. She's… she's being treated pretty fairly at the moment.

GF: But she has been in custody. She's being held. So how are you able to… to speak with her?

DN: I've been able to speak to some of the colleagues that they released there. And also, some of my friends do visit her from time to time, and they pass on the message to me.

GF: So she's able to receive visitors?

DN: Yes.

GF: What… what… tell me what you know about how she came to be arrested?

DN: She was actually working that day at her office. It was herself, a British citizen and five of her colleagues. They're working together. And about a dozen men with guns showed up at her office, and they forcefully detained… detained them and put them in the car and took them to the Ministry of Interior.

GF: What kind of work were they doing that would have brought them under the scrutiny of the authorities in that way?

DN: There shouldn't be any type of that should have brought them… that should have arrested them or brought them the problems that they have. Nadima has an NGO in Afghanistan under the name of Dream Voice Act, which promotes empowering women, children, minority groups, journalists. And her work was to bring aid to the country through various donors. So… and I am not sure as to what was the problem there?

GF: I understand she has quite a high profile within Afghanistan?

DN: That's correct. Nadima did the regular interviews and spoke about women's rights, human rights, and she was a regular on multiple radio stations as well.

GF: I don't know if you heard everything she said, but are there things that she said that… that in retrospect, I guess, you look back and think, well, that must have been why they… they wanted to arrest her?

DN: There wasn't any time I was concerned about that because the current administration that's been around since August 15th, when the previous government collapsed, they were… they were well aware of her activism. Matter of fact, some of the current ministers had given her approval to conduct her interviews, to keep speaking on social media and to move around the country at her own will.

GF: So what do you think happened?

DN: We are not sure. That's… that's… that's the question as to what happened? If they were aware of her activism? And I tried to be in touch with the minister of interior, and they haven't given me a straight answer as to why she's detained for 25 days without any charges, without any reason. So I'm as confused as she is. And at times, even the government seems confused.

GF: I understand that Nadima spent many years in Canada, many of her formative years in Canada, made a decision to return to Afghanistan and then made a decision this summer to stay when so many others who had an opportunity to leave did leave. Why did you decide to stay?

DN: She decided to stay because she said that she's tired of keep… that she keeps moving from country to country since her young age. So, we were pretty much born in a refugee camp, my sister. And then, we moved on to the Middle East due to the Russian invasion in the 1980s. So we moved on to the Middle East, to Oman, and then we moved on to the UAE. Then we moved here. So it became kind of a question of who am I? And what am I belonging to? And I believe Nadima took that close, and she said, I'm staying here. This time, I'm not running. And that's what she said, even in the interview with Al-Jazeera, that I am not leaving this time.

GF: Yeah, and she would have known that the risks that she was running?

DN: Absolutely, absolutely. I would be in touch with her. I am in touch with Nadima regularly. We're very close. And I did tell her that there will be… there might be consequences. And this government is not to be trusted due to multiple factions and multiple decision-makers and no integration among the government. And I said, you ought to be careful as to how you conduct yourself. And she was fully aware of the risk there.

GF: How worried are you?

DN: Since it has been 25 days and things aren't moving at a fast pace, it does worry me that it may become a political situation, and it might prolong, and her detention might be extended. At the same time, I'm hopeful to see that she has a lot of friends, a lot of support, and her voice is getting out there. And I appreciate that I'm speaking with multiple news outlets, and they are getting her voice out there. And that might put pressure on the government to release her immediately.

GF: And what about the Canadian government? Are you getting assistance from them?

DN: Canadian government has been helpful in comforting the family. And they are doing their best. This is a very unique situation. The current administration in Afghanistan is not recognized. So, therefore, there is no channel of communication between Canada and Afghanistan. So it makes it a very complicated and unique situation, but they are trying their best to assist the family in getting Nadima out.

GF: All right. Dastaan, thank you for telling us about this tonight, and we'll check back in with you as… as… as things develop.

DN: Excellent, Gillian. I appreciate it. Thank you very much.

GF: All right, goodnight.

CH: Dastaan Noor is the brother of Nadima Noor. We reached him in Ottawa. We have asked Global Affairs Canada for an update on Nadima Noor's situation, but as we went to air, we had not yet received a response.

[Music: Indie rock]

Winnipeg Metal Detectorist

Guest: Randy Gerylo

CH: Last November, Randy Gerylo was out at Lake Winnipeg doing what he's done for the past 35 years: metal detecting. It was his last day out for the season, and he stumbled across a mystery. Months later, he's finally solved it. We reached Randy Gerylo in Dugald, Manitoba.

GF: Randy, take us back to that day in November when you set out to do your metal detecting at Lake Winnipeg. What were you expecting, you might find?

RANDY GERYLO: Well, yeah, it was my last day detecting for the season, and I was out by Lake Winnipeg, by Gimli, Manitoba, and I was… I was uncovering, like, the stuff I usually find, which is bits of jewellery, the odd pull tab, some coins. And then I came across this… this silver I.D. bracelet.

GF: An I.D. bracelet?

RG: Yes.

GF: What did it look like?

RG: Yeah. Well, it was kind of tarnished because it was sitting in the… I estimate, probably about 60 years, probably, it was sitting… sitting in the sand. And it was really, really tarnished. So it was hard to see, but you could see the engraving on the I.D. bracelet. And it was a fellow with his address and Scotland on the bottom.

GF: Now, did… did you know what you were looking at?

RG: Well, I knew it was an I.D. bracelet, but I just… you know, I just thought it was kind of interesting because I have found bracelets in the past, but nothing, you know, that far away. [chuckling]

GF: Now the name, I think, is Mr. Granville Graham that was engraved on the… on the bracelet?

RG: Yes, Granville Graham, the address and Ayrshire, Scotland.

GF: okay, so you had a name, and you had an address, and you had a country. So what did you do?

RG: Yup! Well, I first figured, well, you know, this is kind of interesting. Wouldn't it be great to find Granville Graham or, you know, family members? So I reached out to our local… we have a local metal detecting forum on Facebook, so I reached out to them first, asked them questions. And then I finally joined some Facebook groups in Scotland, in Ayrshire, and some local newspapers as well got involved to try to find… try to find granville.

GF: And did you find him?

RG: Well, we… yeah, we found him. It didn't take too long to find. Unfortunately, he had passed away in 2019, so the next step was to find, you know, family members. And that… that put a little bit more harder… [chuckling] harder than… than we thought.

GF: But you also… you learned a bit about this man and his story. Tell us… tell us what you learned?

RG: Yes, we learnt that he was… he was… well, he was in the RAF, Royal Air Force. And that he was trained here in Gimli, Manitoba, which used to be an old RCAF, Royal Canadian Air Force, training base. So this is where he was stationed.

GF: Mm-hmm. So what do you think happened? He… he --

RG: He probably went for a swim one day, [GF chuckles] probably was on a little bit of a leave or… and went for a swim and lost his bracelet.

GF: Yeah.

RG: And it's probably been 19… around the late 50s, early 60s when it happened.

GF: And so, you set out to try to, as you say, to… to find him, but then to find his family. Why was that important to you?

RG: Well, it was just something important, and I had actually almost… almost given up the search. But like I say, it's still important to me to try to find somebody. There had to be somebody out there that remembers Granville or, like I say, a family member. And it was, I guess, at the end, I guess, I'll say the end. I was getting pretty… not frustrated, but it was harder to find somebody until the last, I guess, another newspaper picked it up.

GF: And what happened then?

RG: And then, a member of the Royal Legion, the Royal Air Force, the Legion, saw the newspaper article.

GF: Um-hmmm.

RG: And they knew Granville. And they they were actually they were supporting… I guess they have a group that supports family members of veterans. And they knew… they knew Margaret.

GF: Margaret was… was his widow?

RG: Yes. Yes. His widow, yes. So they contacted her, and that was it. Like I say, we never got together with Margaret, but through the Royal Legion, we were able to get that bracelet back to her.

GF: Was she pretty excited about that?

RG: She was pretty excited. Yeah, it's just, you know, part of her… her late husband. A little memento of her late husband's belongings. And it was kind of interesting. As I say, it sat for 60 years just waiting. [GF chuckles] Now, it's back home.

GF: Now it's back where it belongs.

RG: Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

GF: And were you excited? What… what did this mean to you?

RG: Well, like I said, that's… and that's part of what the hobby is. It's part of, you know, it just… it was really great to be able to get that back, you know, to… to… finally, have a little bit of, I guess, conclusion.

GF: Um-hmm.

RG: Getting it back, it was, you know, a great feeling because that's… that's what I wanted to do. That's what I set out to do. You know, to try to find, you know, either Granville or a family member. And we have. And it's all back with his wife, so the bracelet.

GF: Yeah. How unusual is this? I gather you must find all kinds of things when you're out detecting for metal?

RG: Oh yeah. Yeah, I find all kinds of things, and I have gotten back, wedding rings, high school rings, to the owners. But as I say, this was a little bit more special because of the distance involved.

GF: Yeah, well, you're a good man, and I'm sure you've made a lot of people happy.

RG: Yeah. Well, I hope so. It was… you know, it's part of… it was a good news thing, and I'm glad I could be involved and get it back. And that's all.

GF: We can all use a little bit of good news these days.

RG: [chuckling] You bet.

GF: Right.

RG: That's for sure.

GF: Randy, thanks so much for joining us tonight.

RG: Okay, thank you.

GF: Take care. Bye-bye.

RG: Yeah. Bye-bye.

CH: Randy Gerylo is a metal detectorist. We reached him in Dugald, Manitoba.

[Music: Folk]

Radio On Headphones

CH: From CBC Radio it's As It Happens, I'm Chris Howden. We've reached Act 2 of our program, “Act 2: Glass Half-Full”. Why do people feel like they know Ira Glass, host of This American Life, so well? Full disclosure: Ira Glass is a good friend of mine. We talk at least once a week. He shares fascinating stories about that American life, and I listen through headphones. So I don't know him know him, but I trust him implicitly. That's how Alicea Lieberman felt about Ira Glass, too. Until one day she was listening to This American Life in her car. She suddenly felt a distance between them. A disconnect. And that's when it hit her: she was listening over speakers, instead of her usual headphones. So she asked herself, "wait a minute, why is that happening? And what does that mean for how I actually perceive these stories?" Well, Ms. Lieberman is an assistant professor at UCLA Anderson School of Management. So she and a group of researchers put together some experiments. In each, they played their test subjects a clip of someone talking. Some subjects listened over headphones, and some over speakers. And it turned out that the test subjects who listened over headphones felt the people in the clips were more persuasive, or felt more empathy toward them, than the test subjects who listened over speakers did. So when a radio voice has to travel through the air, we're a bit more dismissive, a bit less open. But when that voice is going right into our heads, the information is in one ear, and in the other.

[Music: Instrumental]

Part 2: Nova Scotia Shooting Inquiry, Lithuania Oil Embargo

Nova Scotia Shooting

Guest: Mike Scott

CH: For almost two years, Nova Scotians have waited for answers about the Portapique mass shooting. But now, many of them are frustrated -- and lacking confidence that the inquiry that got underway last month will do the job as promised. Last week, the commission heard arguments that RCMP officers could be re-traumatized if they are called to testify, so they may not appear. Families are also concerned that so much of the commission's work has taken place out of the public's eye and without their input. Mike Scott is a lawyer representing twelve families affected by the shootings. We reached him in Halifax.

GF: Mr. Scott, two years since the shootings happened, three weeks into the inquiry that was meant to provide answers as to why, how are your clients feeling today?

MIKE SCOTT: Well, at this point, my clients are feeling pretty frustrated. We've seen a lot of concerns over the past number of months. Certainly, the beginning of this process hasn't allayed any of those fears.

GF: Right. Well, much of the discussion, as we know, has… lately has been to do with whether RCMP officers should be forced to testify publicly? What is the information that you and your clients are hoping that the RCMP officers will shed light on?

MS: Well, there's certainly a long list of specific issues that we would like to address and far more than I could… I could list off now. But it's one thing to generate background documents and statements that were taken by the RCMP and interviews and different materials. That's certainly normal. But it's expected that the core of the fact-finding process is hearing from and questioning witnesses.

GF: The reason that has been given for those speaking on behalf of the officers is that they don't want to submit these people to… to any more trauma. That this is a trauma-informed investigation and that this would be contrary to… to their interests. Their psychological interests, I guess, is what the argument is. What do you say to that?

MS: Well, for starters, I don't accept the blanket proposition that asking to interview or… or examine any police officers somehow assumes that in any event, they are going to be traumatized by that. If we're talking about an individual person, it doesn't matter whether it's an RCMP officer or a lay witness. If there is a specific issue, and this comes up all the time, then we should deal with that person and their issues and try to accommodate it. But our concern here is that effectively the National Police Federation and the attorney general of Canada seem to want to proceed on the basis that we should simply assume that all RCMP officers will be traumatized by having to answer questions.

GF: There has been the suggestion that this is, in fact, a deliberate attempt not to answer questions for fear that the answers to those questions may not reflect particularly well on… on the RCMP. What do you think of that?

MS: I think I would be speculating, but I… I certainly… it's a red flag when the police union and the attorney general of Canada seem to be intent not on addressing the issues of a particular RCMP member, but to, in a blanket form, prevent the opportunity for what would be an uncontrolled examination. It's one thing for them to be in a room, being interviewed with their lawyers there, and everything is very controlled. It's very much a different thing if you're going to put up, you know, somebody who's in a position to make command decisions and allow them in public to be questioned. That certainly raises lots of opportunity for them to say things that might reflect poorly on the RCMP.

GF: It's been almost two years since this happened, so just… just remind listeners, if you would, what are the big unanswered questions that your clients feel that they still don't have answers to?

MS: Well, one of the biggest ones, and certainly one of those meaningful questions, is: how is this person allowed to escape Portapique? There are only two ways in and out of that… that neighbourhood. And while one of the exit points was… was covered off, the other was not. Notwithstanding, there are people with maps who are supposed to be overseeing containment and ensuring that this can't happen. Somehow, you know, the perpetrator was allowed to, without being noticed in a fully marked RCMP cruiser, leave. We know that a lot of resources were deployed to the Five Houses area, which there is no reasonable explanation for why anybody would think that the perpetrator was there unless he swam across the Portapique River. And we wonder if those forces could have been used to contain the Portapique area?

GF: Right. So the question one is why… why was it not contained? What other… what are the other big questions?

MS: We still have no idea where Lisa Banfield was. We know what she told police was that she escaped from the perpetrator shortly before the mass casualty event started.

GF: This is… this is the former partner of… of the of the shooter, just to be clear?

MS: Yes, his former common-law spouse.

GF: Right.

MS: And that she says that she ran into the woods and then appeared at a neighbour's house in the morning after the sun came up. But we have no idea where she actually was. But the reason we question whether or not that's accurate or not is that by her own statement, she somehow managed to get out of a pair of handcuffs, escape out of a mock police cruiser and then went into the woods and sub-freezing weather barefoot, with no jacket on, with no winter clothes on and somehow survived all night in the woods. That strikes us as on the face of it being worth questioning.

GF: You mentioned the… the issue of trust for your clients, the people who lost loved ones on that terrible weekend. At this point is, is… is that broken irreparably? Is… is there anything that this commission can do now to regain the trust of the people who have been asking and fighting for this for… for two years?

MS: Absolutely. But every day that goes by, that window narrows. You know, the lack of trust is… is something that's borne out of the experience of these people who from Day One, the worst thing that ever happened to them is obvious. But the second-worst thing that's happened to them is an unexplainable refusal by entities like the RCMP to communicate with them, to tell them… to be candid, to be transparent, to tell them what's happening. But at every step along the way, it appears that any efforts to… to do fact-finding and to… to be transparent, to be open is met with more secrecy and half-answers and talking points.

GF: All right. Mr. Scott, thanks so much for joining us tonight.

MS: It's my pleasure. Thank you.

GF: Bye-bye.

CH: We reached lawyer Mike Scott in Halifax.

[Music: Light rock]

‘Reservation Dogs’ Award

SOUNDCLIP

MAN: The “Best Ensemble Cast in a New Scripted Series” is the cast of Reservation Dogs.

[Sound: Clapping]

CH: Reservation Dogs has already won a devoted audience. And now, it's winning awards, too: last night, the show took home the “Best Ensemble Cast” award at the Independent Spirit Awards. Reservation Dogs is set on a reserve in Eastern Oklahoma. But its cast members and creators come from a number of North American Indigenous backgrounds. One of the show's stars, Devery Jacobs, is a Mohawk who grew up in Kahnawake, Quebec. Here is part of what she had to say when she accepted the award.

SOUNDCLIP

DEVERY JACOBS: Thank you so, so much, Film Independent, for recognizing us with this award. We're so grateful and honoured to stand on this stage alongside artists who we respect and admire so much. But we're especially proud to be in the same room with our fellow Indigenous nominees: Lyle, Janna, Michael, Kaylee and Choskay. This prize is so much bigger than ourselves, just ourselves. Each of us come from different nations across Turtle Island, who survived 500 years of colonization. And in the 100 years of film and TV, Reservation Dogs now marks the first project with all-Indigenous creatives at the helm. [lots of clapping and cheering] To all those who came before us working in Hollywood, playing antagonists in Western movies and mythic, stoic and savage Indians, to Native creators who have had to endure and break down tropes in this industry, we are here accepting this award because of you. We are walking on the very path that you fought for us and carved out for us. We hope that this can mark a new beginning. Native artists have so many stories to share, and we're only beginning to scratch the surface. Niawen'kó:wa! Thank you so much!

[Sound: clapping and cheering]

CH: That was Devery Jacobs accepting the Independent Spirit Award for “Best Ensemble Cast” for the show Reservation Dogs.

[Music: Disco?]

Lithuania Oil Embargo

Guest: Andrius Kubilius

CH: The push to boycott Russia's most important exports ran into heavy pressure today. Ukraine says a ban on Russian oil and gas is a key step to ending Vladimir Putin's invasion of their country. Yesterday, U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken said he was in talks with Europe about a possible ban. But this afternoon, German Chancellor Olaf Scholz said that, quote, "Europe's supply of energy for heat generation, mobility, power supply, and industry cannot be secured in any other way." Unquote. That's not how Andrius Kubilius sees things. Mr. Kubilius is a Lithuanian Member of the European Parliament and the country's former prime minister. He and his government have been urging their EU partners to impose a ban. We reached Andrius Kubilius in Strasbourg.

GF: Mr. Kubilius, as you listen to Germany's chancellor today saying that banning Russian oil and gas would impose too heavy a burden on Germans, what did you think?

ANDRIUS KUBILIUS: Well, I think that it's not very moral to speak about, you know, burdens on our, you know, side, on European side, when Ukrainians are fighting a real war. And many of them are, you know, killed in the war field, you know? And by… by Russian tanks. And still, we're buying quite a lot of, you know, Russian oil and gas. Each day now, as the Bruegel think tank is… is, you know, describing in his recent article, we're paying more than 600 million euros per day to Putin's pockets. And since one tank you know is costing one point five million euros for Russian tank. So each day, we're paying for 400 new tanks, you know, for Russian military forces, which are fighting in Ukraine. So for us to speak about, you know, some kind of inconvenience, some… some difficulties to abandon, you know, buying Russian gas and oil is something very, very, very immoral.

GF: Why do you think Germany's taken that position?

AK: I don't know? Because, you know, just two weeks ago, I don't know who knows the numbers exactly what… what are the problems for Germany economy? I know that Germans, you know, are buying, If you compare with other countries, quite a big proportion of Russian gas. But just two weeks ago, Ursula von der Leyen, who is also a German, you know, representative in the European Commission, who is commission president, she said in a very clear way while speaking vote in European Parliament on some other occasions… it was on 19th of February, just five days before the war started. And she said even in case of full disruption of gas supply from Russia. We are on the safe side for this winter. Because of consultations with American side, American side is bringing a lot of LNG, much more LNG gas, to… to Europe. And that was the statement from the commission president. So I don't know who is… who is… you know, who is saying not the correct information? Chancellor Scholz or Commission President Ursula von der Leyen? I am… I am trusting more into commission president.

GF: How effective would a ban be? If countries could come together and impose this in the way that you are asking for, how effective would it be in determining the decisions that would be made in the Kremlin, do you think?

AK: Well, first of all, of course, the result would be a very effective sanction because now really, you know, while Putin is able to receive such a big amount of money. You know, each day, 600 million from Europeans for gas and oil. He can continue his war, you know, with… of course, with some difficulties. But still, he can continue. So if the embargo would be imposed immediately, of course, that would make big damage for the financial and economical situation of Russia. I don't know if Putin is… you know, for me, it looks like that he is not able to make rational decisions anymore. But somebody around who can, you know, maybe would understand that this is really a catastrophe for Russia. It's a catastrophe for Russian economy. And maybe, you know, it's time to stop this totally, you know, criminal war, which they waged in Ukraine.

GF: It would certainly have an impact, though, on the price of oil and gas. There have been estimates that it could double almost overnight. Now, Lithuania itself imports almost all of its energy from Russia. And yet, you… your government is urging a ban. What is the calculation they have done? Is it the case that Lithuanians are prepared to pay that kind of a price?

AK: Well, first of all, we were now forecasting that to be dependent totally on Russian gas is really quite insecure. That is why my government, when I was prime minister back in 2008-2012, we started to build our LNG terminal. Well, only one besides the Polish terminals, the only one in the Baltic Sea. The second one in the Baltic Sea. We built it in 2014. And from that time, we are… you know, we are independent, you know, in our… in our gas choices. We can buy from Gazprom, or we can buy from… from global markets, and we are secure from that point of view. So definitely, we understand that the price can increase. But for us, you know, security of Ukraine is our security. So Ukrainians are fighting not just for their own, you know, independence, for their own security. They are fighting also for European security. And that is why we need to support them, not paying Putin in a very clear way. It's a very simple moral obligation.

GF: And yet, here on the other side of the Atlantic, in Canada and the United States, people are already angry at their governments over record fuel prices. What would you say to people here who say, you know, they don't see why they should have to pay more simply because Vladimir Putin decided to invade Ukraine?

AK: Well, I would say very simply that if we shall not stop Putin now, then all of us, we shall suffer. We are lucky that Ukrainians are so brave and heroic in fighting, you know, by themselves without, you know, full support from our side. We are giving some… you know, we're delivering some… some weapons, but we are not able to, you know, to impose a no-fly zone. And then, we're paying to Putin, you know? So if we show support in such a way, you know, to Putin, then we shall suffer. Because Putin will not be stopped, you know? He will go… he will go… he will make next steps. And even now, when he sees, you know, some weakness on… on Western side, he starts to, you know, to… to threaten with the nuclear weapons. So that is when he will not make a big difference in which target to choose. You know, the Baltic States, Germany, or somebody, you know, on another side of the Atlantic Ocean.

GF: Nobody will be safe.

AK: Sure.

GF: Mr. Kubilius, I appreciate your time.

AK: Yes. Thanks a lot. Bye.

CH: Andrius Kubilius is a Member of the European Parliament and the former Prime Minister of Lithuania. We reached him in Strasbourg, France.

[Music: Ambient]

Peptoc Hotline

CH: Rays of sunshine can be hard to find right now. Figuratively hard because of the glut of terrible news. But also literally hard, because it's March, an often cloudy and sometimes unfriendly month. At this point in the year, we could all use a pep talk. And who better to give it than a bunch of kids in sunny California. Enter the Peptoc Hotline -- a project by West Side Elementary School in Healdsburg. We definitely needed a boost, so we gave them a call.

SOUNDCLIP

GIRL: If you're feeling mad, frustrated or nervous, press one. If you need words of encouragement and life advice, press two. If you need a pep talk from kindergarteners, press three. If you need to hear kids laughing with delight, press four.

CH: Well, I'm definitely frustrated AND nervous. Let's go for option 1.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: An input beer]

BOY: If you’re feeling mad, you should take three deep breaths in and think of things that make you happy. The thing that makes me happy is when I think of happy things that will happen in the future, like going to a friend's house or a cousin’s house. Bye!

BOY #2: If you could just take five minutes off.

GIRL: If you're frustrated, you can always go to your bedroom, punch your pillow or cry on it. And just go scream outside.

BOY #3: If you're nervous, go get your wallet and spend it on ice cream and shoes!

CH: [chuckling] Buying ice cream and shoes is great advice. And when I get home, I'm punching and crying in all the pillows. But I could also use some words of encouragement right now -- option two.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: An input beep]

BOY: Be grateful for yourself.

BOY #2: Dude, live it up!

BOY #3: Be you!

BOY #4: I trust that you can make things right.

BOY #5: Be happy.

BOY #6: Try it again.

BOY #7 Believe in yourself.

BOY #8: If you're feeling up high unbalanced, think of groundhogs.

BOY #9: It's okay to be different.

A GROUP OF GIRLS: Always stay together.

GIRL: Don't give up, power through.

GROUP OF KIDS: We already like you.

CH: [laughing] They already like me! Now, we didn’t get to the "kids laughing with delight" option --- or the option where 30 kindergarteners yell at us not to give up. But if that's something you think you need today, and it probably is, give the Peptoc Hotline a call. That's P-E-P-T-O-C -- and the number is 707-998-8410.

[Music: Bright piano]

Part 3: Newfoundland Cemetery, Alberta Siksika Nation Hospital Law Firm

Newfoundland Cemetery

Guest: Evelyn Grondin-Bailey

CH: A cemetery in Burin, Newfoundland may be hallowed ground, but local residents worry that won't be enough to stop the Catholic Church from selling it. The St. John's Roman Catholic archdiocese has been ordered to pay millions of dollars to victims of physical and sexual abuse committed at the Mount Cashel orphanage during the 1940s and 1950s. And that figure is expected to rise. So the church has declared bankruptcy and begun the process of selling church-owned buildings. Now, members of the Burin Cemetery committee, which has funds to restore the cemetery, worry it will be next. Evelyn Grondin-Bailey is member of the Burin Cemetery committee. We reached her in Burin.

GF: Evelyn, from what you've heard, what makes you think that your cemetery in Burin is going to be sold?

EVELYN GRONDIN-BAILEY: It's my understanding that all cemeteries within the archdiocese are up for grabs.

GF: Right. And you've been told to halt the work that you've been doing, I understand?

EGB: Yes, we have. We were given a stop-work order some weeks back.

GF: So… well, just take me back. What's the work that you've been doing at the cemetery?

EGB: Well, the cemetery first came into being in the early 1800s. So all of our founding families pretty much are buried there. And it continued in use until the 50s, the mid-50s. And then, over the years, it became very derelict. It became overgrown, alders, garbage-strewn. And so, in about 2014, a group of concerned citizens thought it was disgraceful and very disrespectful for those who have gone before us. And we decided to take it on as a project initially just to clean it up. But then, we started a program, and we were very lucky at that, and we acquired a fair amount of money and then decided to take it up another level. So at the moment, it's a cemetery, but it's also more of a park.

GF: So I want to go back to the money because how much money did you raise for all of this?

EGB: Altogether, over a million dollars.

GF: Over a million dollars?! Now --

EGB: Yes, we did. I think it was somewhere around one million, three hundred thousand.

GF: And now, some of that, I understand, has been seized. Is that right?

EGB: Yes, we… we had used quite a bit of it. We used over $500,000 in the cemetery. And then, we paid off the mortgage in the church, which is somewhere around $72,000. We helped out the church, too, when they initially started having some problems last year. And then, we still had from a couple of different sources around $200,000 left in our account. And that money was seized.

GF: And what do you think of that?

EGB: We were very, very upset about it, and… and felt extremely betrayed. That's the only word that you can really use.

GF: Betrayed in what way?

EGB: Well, we had worked so hard. I mean, not only did we raise the money, and we… we… we were so involved in the project. But we worked up there. I mean, we're a group of senior citizens. And, actually, we started off at seven, we're now down to five. And we would go up there from May through till October most days and work from about 10:00 in the morning until usually around 5:00 in the evening. But at times, we were there till 8:00 or later, trying to finish the project. So we really put our all into it.

GF: Now, this is all happening because the church has to pay the victims who were abused at the Mount Cashel Orphanage. And this is one of the ways that they're attempting to do that.

EGB: Yes, that's true. But the laity, we're not criminals. We built the churches. We paid for them. We raised the money for them. The church, as such, didn't invest any money into any of it. It was the hard work of the people who lived in the various parishes.

GF: Now, I understand that there was a letter read out over the weekend from the archbishop. Apparently, the Burin Cemetery wasn't included in the initial sale document. And… but… and I understand the letter basically said there might be a way for your committee to repurchase the cemetery if, in fact, they would be sold. What do you make of that?

EGB: I think that will be very difficult in our case when you consider the amount of money that's gone into it. And also, we are worried that some might see it as a way to earn money. I mean, the columbariums are up there. One columbarium is up there. There's only about probably a quarter of it that's been sold so far. And then the… you know, the preparation work for two additional ones has been completed.

GF: Mm-Hmm.

EGB: So it will be a money… money-making opportunity for anyone who is interested in this thing. We couldn't possibly afford to do that.

GF: Have your feelings towards the church changed since all of this?

EGB: Yes. Yes, it has. I mean, we had a meeting with the archbishop, and he had… that's one of the comments he made. You know, you can buy… or at the time, this is your church. You can buy your church back if you want. I mean, I've never heard anything so ridiculous in my life because the abuse seems to have continued. We've had any number in Newfoundland where things have changed, but people are now bringing it to court. And a lot of the guilty parties were sentenced to jail terms. But nevertheless, it still goes on. So I entered the archbishop to say, we'd buy it back. And then, you know, five, six, seven, 10 years down the road, another, you know, scandal like we're dealing with right now. And then we're supposed to give it all up again?

GF: Do you feel like you're paying for the wrongdoings of your church?

EGB: Yes. Yes, we are. You know, don't get me wrong, we are 100 per cent behind the victims. And we really think and believe with all of our hearts. They should be compensated for what they suffered. Not only initially, but through their whole lives. I've known some people who were part of that group, and my heart breaks for them. I mean, it never goes away. It's always there, and it's affected the rest of their lives. So yes, they should be compensated. But to strip everything that we ever held dear and what we believed in and leave us with nothing hardly seems the way to deal with it.

GF: Right.

EGB: So, no, I don't feel the same way about my church as I did even a year ago.

GF: Well, we will watch what… what happens next. But I do appreciate you telling us about it tonight. Good luck, Evelyn.

EGB: You're very welcome, and thank you very much.

GF: Bye-bye.

EGB: Bye.

CH: Evelyn Grondin-Bailey is a member of the Burin Cemetery committee. She was in Burin, Newfoundland and Labrador.

[Music: Folk]

Toronto Ukrainian School

CH: Twelve days after Russian troops invaded Ukraine, people across the world are still trying to make sense exactly why this is happening and what it means? In Canada, over a million people have family connections with Ukraine and some middle school students at a Ukrainian school in Toronto shared their fears about the war, as well as the moments that have given them courage, with CBC Toronto's Mary Wiens.

SOUNDCLIP

EUGENE: I am Eugene. I am a student of St. Demetrius. I'm in Grade 8. The moment I heard about the invasion, the moment I saw it on the news, I was just sitting in my room preparing to go to bed. At that moment, I was… I was shaking because I got my entire family over there. I got my grandmas. I got my brother. I could not believe it because I was actually planning to go to Ukraine in this period of time because I really miss my grandma… grandmas. I really miss my brother.

DIANA: I am Diana, and I'm in Grade 7. I'm also from St. Demetrius. A conversation that stayed with me was one with my uncle. He's still in Ukraine, with his family, his wife and his three-month-old little son. He's a firefighter. He said that all will be well, and I'm going to do everything I possibly can and do everything that's in my power to help and try to save all of these hurt people. He was on speaker at the time. It's… it's… what's the feeling? It's like safeness. He will continue to go out into the most dangerous places and help.

SIRI: My name is Siri, and I am in Grade 8. Okay, so one moment that really stays with me is definitely the quote that Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky had made. I don't need a ride. I need ammunition. The fight is here. When he became a president, I always believed in him. I always believe in everyone. But this really made him stand out… out of all world leaders today because he has the courage to stay in the capital where there's a lot of bombing, where there is a lot of fighting going on.

EUGENE: There's a lot of stuff at stake, people's lives, the freedom of the world, economics. There's a lot of things that are affected right now, and I don't think that this is fair. But this world is weird, and everybody knows this.

DIANA: It's not just like some people are dying. It's our families. It's our people, the people that share the same religion, the same culture, the same interests, possibly even the same blood. It's really sad because I don't think Vladimir Putin understands what he's doing to us. His families didn’t suffer. He doesn't understand what this is causing, even his own people.

CH: Students from St. Demetrius Catholic School in Etobicoke, speaking with Mary Wiens today on CBC Toronto’s Metro Morning.

[Music: Horns!!!]

Chairlift Breaks

CH: This weekend, at Marble Mountain in Newfoundland, a group of skiers and snowboarders spent a surprising and unexpected amount of time in the air. On Saturday, the chairlift failed, leaving hundreds of people stranded. They had to be evacuated. And it took rescuers hours to get everyone down. Marble Mountain's operations manager said a couple of people were sent to hospital for mild hypothermia, but no one was seriously injured. Melissa McDonald and her kids, 12-year-old Caleb and 10-year-old Kylie, were there.

SOUNDCLIP

MELISSA MCDONALD: It was supposed to be just a regular day. We were going. The kids had their snowboard program. And on their first run, partway up, the chair just stopped. So we waited for a while because we thought, oh, well, it's normal for the chair to stop once in a while, for a little while. But then we found it that they were going to have to evacuate everybody off the chair. So, I decided to walk up and see where my kids were.

ANTHONY GERMAIN: Okay, so you… you were on the ground, and your two children are up in the sky. What did you do?

MM: Well, like any mom, I needed to be near where my kids were. So I was halfway up to where Caleb was, and I waited there for him to get evacuated out. And then, once he was evacuated out, I walked up further to where Kylie was, and then she ended up being there for an extra hour and a half.

AG: Ohhhh!

MM: So we waited there for some time.

AG: Okay, so Caleb, let me ask you a question. When did you realize that something wasn't right?

CALEB MCDONALD: Um, I'd say after like, maybe 10 minutes, probably. Because I thought someone would have just, like, fell. Because usually, when someone falls down, they usually stop the chairlift. So I thought someone had fell down. And then, after probably like 10 or 20 minutes, I was like, what is this person doing? [ all chuckling] And then… and then we just kept waiting. And when we saw a ski patrol coming, and we saw them taking all the stuff we thought… we thought they were going to use like a trampoline or something.

AG: A trampoline?!

CM: That we’d have to jump down onto or something.

AG: [MM chuckles] I'm glad they didn't use a trampoline. Kylie, how long… how long were you up there?

KYLIE MCDONALD: Three hours.

AG: Three hours?!

KM: Yeah.

AG: How did it feel sitting up there watching and waiting and waiting and waiting?

KM: Um, it was kind of scary, and it was really cold!

AG: It must have been! Because I know… I know talking to Ashley Brauweiler, our meteorologist keeping track of the weather, it was really windy as well. How scary was it?

KM: Not that scary, but it just felt kind of lonely. But I was there with my friends, though.

AG: Okay, so at least you had friends. So, Melissa, you're watching all this from the ground, and you must have recognized, okay, time is starting to tick by. Were you worried about, you know, how cold it was for your kids?

MM: Oh, definitely, but there was… actually when the fire department showed up, they were coming around and throwing blankets up to people on the chairlift. So that was helpful. And then, another man, I believe he was the electrician at Marble Mountain, he came around with bags of hand warmers and foot warmers that he was throwing up to people on the lifts as well.

AG: What was the rescue like? Like actually being taken out of the chair? Caleb?

CM: Fun.

AG: It was fun?! [laughing all around]

CM: It was… I was really happy to get down.

AG: Mm-Hmm.

CM: And they kind of like… they… one guy had this, like, slingshot with a hockey puck and a rope.

AG: Okay?

CM: So he like slingshotted that over the wire that the chair was connected onto. And they threw, like, another rope up to you. And you had to, like, put this rope around your neck and, like, cinch it in, so it was tight.

AG: Uh-huh.

CM: And then, sit on this, like, thing where they would put you down on.

KM: And Caleb, you missed some steps. You put it over your head and under your armpits.

AG: Oh!

KM: And then, you sit on this t-bar thingy. And then they would, like, pull you down.

CH: Melissa McDonald and her children Caleb and Kylie speaking with the CBC's Anthony Germain today, after Marble Mountain's chairlift suffered a mechanical failure on Saturday.

[Music: Banjo!!!]

Alberta Siksika Nation Hospital Law Firm

Guest: Dr. Lana Potts

CH: Members of Siksika Nation in southern Alberta are being asked to come forward with their experiences of discrimination in the province's healthcare system. The chief and council are working with a law firm that will help conduct interviews. And the initiative comes after community leaders say they've heard an "overwhelming" number of stories from their members detailing discrimination, racism, or harmful behaviour in Alberta hospitals and other healthcare facilities. That's no surprise to Dr. Lana Potts. She's a family physician practicing at the Siksika Health and Wellness Centre. We reached her in Calgary.

GF: Dr. Potts, how routinely do you hear the kinds of stories of discrimination and racism that the Siksika Nation leaders have been talking about?

DR. LANA POTTS: Unfortunately, I hear that story every day. As a family physician who works in Siksika and with other First Nations, it is a common story that I hear from many of my patients.

GF: And what kind of things are they telling you?

DLP: Failing to get pain treatment, failing to be even diagnosed, being turned away from emergency, being told that, you know, there's no need to investigate. They feel and hear unfair treatment or, you know, discriminatory words spoken about them behind curtains and corners. The stories, unfortunately, are endless.

GF: Are there any that in particular that stick out in your mind?

DLP: There's… there's several. One, in particular, was of a… of an elderly individual who… who had the critical result, and I had to send to a local hospital. When I sent them to the local hospital, they were just told, you know, you look fine, and you… they were sent on their way. And their family called me and, you know, they questioned me as to why I sent them in? And I shared with them that, oh, you know, this was a critical result. And I had to follow up with another hospital. And I think about that story because I think had they not called me or had they not had a relationship with me, they would have maybe taken the word of that care facility and just went on their way. And the outcome would have been, you know, very dire. This plagues me every day because I wonder what we don't know? And I wonder how often people take that face value or that lack of care? And as a result, it's impacting our care, and it's impacting the outcomes of First Nations people and their health.

GF: And I guess it's obvious to you, but what is behind this? Why is this happening?

DLP: The sad reality is it has to do with, you know, there's a term that's been coined on Indigenous specific racism, looking at discrimination, negative stereotyping. And it… just because we're, you know, First Nations people. You know, the long history of colonization with the Indian Act. And this has led to, I feel personally, as a First Nations person, that I'm not valued in society. That it's okay for people to treat me in a different way, for people to be negative towards me, for people to, you know, want to cause me harm because it's been accepted for so long that all of this discrimination and racism is just ingrained in policy and personally mediated racism, that it's not something that people even see anymore. It's just like, oh, that happens. It's just First Nations people. You know, they're angry again, or they're complaining again. They're not seeing people as being humans or as being equal parts of society.

GF: Have you actually faced this kind of discrimination in the health system yourself?

DLP: I have. And I've had to face it all through my training. I was a nurse prior to being a doctor. I faced it there. I faced it in medical school and residency. I face it personally when I access care with my family. I had… my daughter was born early, and I had to go to the hospital to… to take her in. She was suffering from breathing issues. And, you know, I sat in the waiting room, and we were refused to be triaged. They said just to wait. There was no need for her to be seen. And as a medically-trained doctor, I knew my daughter was struggling. And it was only through me going up and showing them with the devices I brought in that she needed oxygen and she needed care that we were seen. I've personally went to get care, and I've been refused care. I've been refused medication. I've been accused of, you know, being intoxicated or being under the influence just because I'm speaking up for myself. I have… I used to work, actually, in a leadership position in a clinic in downtown Calgary. And I was seen as someone who was always out to do wrong. I was asked why I was there? I would… people didn't believe me that I held a role as a medical director. Like, it was blatant personal mediated racism. And this was accepted, even though I reported it.

GF: Well, I was going to ask you, in a way, you… you are an advocate for some of your patients, I presume. And when you raise this with the healthcare system that you are a part of, what… what response do you get? What do they say?

DLP: It's often passed off as, well, perhaps they're having a bad day, or perhaps you heard them wrong. Perhaps it's not as bad as you think. You know, the intention is that human beings are good. But, at the end of the day, people are good. But sometimes, their messages and what they pass across as it comes across a very harmful. And I've never actually seen clear action taken on any of the, you know, examples I've brought up, the complaints that I've written and everything just kind of gets, well, we'll just accept it, and we'll move on.

GF: And what is the impact that that has on people?

DLP: I can personally speak for myself. It's… it's very defeating. You know, it's actually caused me to question some of… you know, is this… is this work worth it at times? You know, how much more do we have to do? Do you just sit back and take it? You know, I personally, I'm scared to sometimes access healthcare. I don't even want to go into healthcare.

GF: You're afraid to access healthcare? You as a doctor? [chuckle]

DLP: I am! Yeah, as a doctor, I don't even go to the doctor because of the racism I've personally experienced in the system.

GF: The First Nation Council has chosen to… to try to deal with this by hiring a law firm to investigate this to… to collect people's stories. What do you think of that approach?

DLP: Although I'm not specifically involved with that, I think it's about story gathering, and I think it's about, you know, perhaps legitimizing story. Like, people are telling story and as a way of collecting and perhaps gaining momentum together. Because one story is one, but a thousand stories is powerful. And that strength of banding together that… that it's not a one-off of what happens to me as an individual, but it's happening to many people. And perhaps that would start to have, you know, good dialogue. I always believe in, you know, a good partnership and having hearing both sides of the story. But I think one side is often heard, and the other side is… the other stories are just passed off many times.

GF: All right. Well, thank you for telling us about your experiences today.

DLP: Thank you for having me. I appreciate having, you know, this time to be able to elevate these issues.

GF: All right. Best to you. Thank you.

DLP: Yes. Take care.

CH: Dr. Lana Potts is a physician at the Siksika Health Centre and Medical Director at Aakom-Kiyii Health Services on Piikani Nation. We reached her in Calgary.

[Music: Folk]

LR: Carol Off

CH: It can be tempting, in the world of journalism, to throw around words like "unprecedented." But while Carol's departure from As It Happens last week was a lot of things -- bittersweet, bruising and bewildering among them -- these are not uncharted waters. After all, in its 50-plus years on the air, our show has had many interviewers. Mary Lou Finlay, Michael Enright, Dennis Trudeau, Elizabeth Gray, and more all sat in Carol's chair before her. And as you continue to call us with your thoughts on her departure, many of you have been reminded of another former As It Happens host as well.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: Talkback beep]

DEREK: Hello, my name is Derek from Winnipeg, and I just wanted to say thanks, Carol, for 16 years of excellence. Listeners have been sending in their shining testimonials, and I have been waiting a long time to express to CBC executives that, like As It Happens pioneer, Barbara Frum, a room or a studio should also be named after you in your honour. I am sure listeners would agree. Carol, you have taken CBC, our national treasure far and wide.

[Sound: Talkback beep]

JULIA SCHNEIDER: Hi, my name is Julia Schneider. I'm calling from Stratford, Ontario. And I'm calling, of course, about Carol Off leaving. As a university student in the 70s, I was an avid As It Happens listener. And the interviewer I liked most then was Barbara Frum. When she left the program, I didn't know if she could be replaced, and I didn't listen to the show for a long time. In fact, for years. Carol Off brought me back. And now, I'm dreading her loss. No one is irreplaceable. But maybe Carol Off. I'll just leave it at that.

CH: Julia wasn't the only one willing to admit she had her initial doubts about Carol. John and Christine Cooke wrote in to say they've listened to the show for 20 years and, quote, "When Carol became the host we were pretty disappointed, but boy were we wrong! I expect we're like most other listeners. We listen, appreciate, reflect, and go on. But the appreciation and reflection is due to the humanity that Carol exhibited and exuded, always. We will so miss her compassion, empathy, understanding, and humility." Carol's chair is indeed a very tough chair to fill. But we're thrilled to have a tremendous cast of co-hosts helping to do just that over the next several weeks -- until we find a permanent new host.

GF: And Chris, as one of the folks sitting in Carol's chair, and is not aspiring to stay here permanently, [CH chuckles] I'm happy to report that listeners come bearing some kind words for you too! Like so many, Jane Potter from Victoria lamented Carol's absence and thanked her for "making sense of the world for 16 years." But she also wrote, "Chris, you're all right, too, and I'm glad you're sticking around!" And Brian Foss in Ottawa shared that sentiment -- writing, "Amid all the oh-so-well-deserved celebrations of Carol Off's 16 years as co-host of As It Happens, I wanted to send some praise your way as well, Chris… "For the past many years of your involvement with the show, first as its writer and now as its co-host, I've been addicted to your puns. No one (literally, no one) shares my belief [CH laughs] that punning is a high form of humour, I will add to that, but I am undeterred by their nay-saying. And so the endless supply of puns that you incorporate into the show has been an endless source of delight and smiles for me and for my like-minded pun-lovers, whoever and wherever they are."

CH: Thanks so much, Brian. I know: everyone thinks puns are low humour. And they're all wrong. And thank you again to everyone who has been in touch with expressions of solidarity and encouragement. I'm not sure where I'd be without them. Carol leaving is pun-ishment enough!

GF: Groan.

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March 07, 2022 Episode Transcript

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