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The AIH Transcript For February 25, 2022

[hosts]Carol Off, Chris Howden[/hosts]

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden, this is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

CO: On all fronts. A member of Ukraine's parliament tells us people across the country are showing up to help with the war effort however they can -- on the front lines, and online.

CO: Road blocks. An Afghan refugee who was supposed to be in Canada by now is instead trapped in Kyiv with his family. And for them, the situation on the ground is all too familiar.

CH: Long day's journey into night. A reporter who made the trek from Lviv to Poland alongside thousands of fleeing citizens tells us about the harrowing journey -- and the moment Ukraine's military started conscripting men at the border.

CH: And… another job well done before her job’s well done. As you may have gathered, these are not the bills for Carol's final show because this is As It Happens -- and things are happening. So our farewell will happen on Monday.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Vladimir Putin has Kyiv in his sights. As we go to air, the Ukrainian capital has been suffering Russian missile attacks, and there are reports of Russian fighters on the streets of Kyiv. But Ukraine's government hasn't left the city. The country's president, Volodymyr Zelenskiy, has been photographed in fatigues, a helmet and a flak jacket. And Inna Sovson is still in Kyiv as well. Ms. Sovson is an opposition member of the Rada, the Ukrainian parliament. We reached her in Kyiv.

CO: Just how… I mean, shelling in what… would this be from Russia? This… this is, are they on the ground? Are they shelling within the country? Are these long-range missiles? Are they… are you getting aircraft that are bombing you? Give us a sense of what's hitting you right now.

IS: Well, what is hitting us is Putin, with everything that he has. So we do have troops on the ground. The troops on the ground are coming from three directions. There are troops coming on the south from Crimea, and they have actually managed to take over a few towns in the very south of Ukraine. But they didn't claim the biggest city down to the south, the city of Kherson. There are troops coming from the east, particularly around Sumy. There were street fighting in Sumy during the day today. And there was shelling of Kharkiv city, which is my native city, actually. It's the second biggest city in Ukraine. And as for Kyiv, we are getting hurt, but not as successfully as Putin hoped. Because our understanding right now was that he hoped to destroy all our protection from airstrikes on the very first night. But he didn't manage to do that.

CO: Do you have any sense of the numbers of Russian casualties that have happened already in Ukraine?

IS: Ukrainian military of defence is reporting about two thousand eight hundred Russians killed during the invasion of Ukraine.

CO: What you're describing also are instructions to civilians to take a very active role in this. I understand people have been told to get armed; if they bring their passports, get armed. But also to prepare Molotov cocktails in order to add to the resistance. What are… tell us, give us a sense of how people are preparing to defend their homes?

IS: I will say something very personal. I… within the last… is it 48 hours, 42 hours, I've only cried once. And that was when I saw the pictures of people standing in lines in the military recruitment offices. So people are recruiting, not in the hundreds, but in thousands, in every single Ukrainian city. There are people who are fighting the information war. There are people who are coordinating support -- humanitarian support -- being received from the West. And I'm proud to know that some of my students are doing this right now. So… so everybody is… is trying to get involved in any way possible.

CO: And are they making these homemade explosives as well as part of the defence?

IS: Yes, they are. And, actually, some of the Russian tanks and some of the vehicles have been hit by the Molotov cocktails. And I've seen this very nice post on… on… on some of the social media. And I'm a university professor initially, so… so I take a deep concern over the students. And I've read that the chemistry students are willing to prepare Molotov cocktails because they have expertise. And this is the cooperation that is happening on so many different levels that, well, the Russians didn't believe is actually possible. Because what we have seen from the Russian side is that their soldiers are extremely demotivated. They are giving up very easily. They see that they cannot really invade such a big and powerful country. They didn't expect such resistance in any way possible. And we did see some of the video recordings of some of the Russian soldiers captured here in Ukraine, and they all look terrified. And when they're asked what they are doing here, they all say, like, oh, we were told we were coming here for training exercises.

CO: You said you'd only cried once in the course of these days and nights. But you must have so many mixed emotions right now?

IS: I am spending the night with my friend because where I live is actually north of the city, and that is the area where they are entering the city from. I relocated my son to western Ukraine yesterday, so I can feel safe for now for… for… for him, and I can concentrate on the work I'm doing here. So we'll see how this night proceeds.

IS: Thank you so much.

CO: Right now?

CO: Are you going to shelter?

CH: As the fighting intensifies, thousands of Indian students remain trapped in Ukraine. India's embassy has told them to stay "strong, safe, and alert" as rescue operations are worked out. But Arpit Katiyar, a medical student studying in Kharkiv, doesn't feel safe at all -- and he wants his government to do more to help him get out. We reached Mr. Katiyar inside a Kharkiv metro station earlier today. [lots of children and adults talking in background]

ARPIT KATIYAR: Actually, every time I hear the announcement, I get terrified. It's very scary. We are lacking of food and water. Our stock was also limited, so now we are running short of food and water.

CO: How crowded is it down there?

AK: It's approximately more than 700 and 800 people today.

CO: Do you have a place you can sit or anything?

CO: Just tell us a bit about how you're feeling?

CO: Wow, that's loud!

CO: You can hear --

CO: What is the… what is your government in India? What is it saying to you about getting out of Ukraine?

AK: Yeah, they have posted an advisory, which states that these students will be evacuated via Hungarian and Poland border.

CO: So you have to get to Hungary or Poland in order to get out of Ukraine and get back to India?

AK: Yeah, but… but that's in the western part of the country, and we are in the easternmost part. So we don't know how to get there.

AK: Yes.

CO: Eighteen thousand! And so why… why… why… why did you go to Ukraine? What was the attraction to go and study medicine there?

CO: Okay, so did that go on all night, those announcements?

AK: Yes, because the other university was not allowing us. They were taking our offline classes. When we asked to them what about our online classes? They told us to wait. And the flight prices were also higher… more… much higher than usual.

CO: And so you weren't really prepared for how quickly this invasion would happen?

AK: No, we were not prepared.

CO: So apparently, President Putin has spoken to your prime minister of India, Prime Minister Modi, and said that… that you… you and the other Indians in Ukraine have nothing to worry about. That the… Vladimir Putin says the there is no threat to civilian population. And he says that you should just stay where you are, and you'll be okay. What… what do you say to that?

AK: Yes, they are. My mother can't sleep at night. [a pause to listen to an announcement on the P.A.]

AK: Thank you.

AK: [said sullenly] Okay. Take care]

CH: Arpit Katiyar is a second-year medical school student from India who is studying in Ukraine. We reached him in a metro station in Kharkiv.

CH: Since he became Canada's Ambassador to the United Nations, Bob Rae has listened to a lot of Russian rhetoric. He's heard Russia deny that it had any plans to invade Ukraine. And he's heard accusations from the Kremlin that whatever happened would be Ukraine's fault. Now, the emptiness of that rhetoric is obvious. And this week at the United Nations, Bob Rae spoke about the grave violations of the UN Charter. We reached Bob Rae at the United Nations just before the vote to condemn Russia's actions -- a vote which everyone expects Russia to veto.

BOB RAE: That's impossible to answer, I think… I think what has… is only to say that we're doing what we can. And we've done, I think, already a great deal in terms of providing aid and weaponry and every kind of support that we can… that we can find, both financial and… and in defence. It's… it's… I think it's… it's very, very difficult for all of us, given what President Putin has… has decided to do and decided to authorize. A full-scale military campaign is… is the worst option from our perspective and from the point of view of the Ukrainian people. And I think we all have to do even more than we're doing. And I think more steps will be taken. I think more action will be taken against… against the Russians. I'm not sure it's… it's ever going to be possible to meet the… the expectations that people have. Not that they're unreasonable, but that I think it's that certain decisions have been made with respect to military intervention, which obviously make that option much more unlikely.

CO: Sanctions take time to actually have their effect, don't they? And what's happening is that people tonight are going to die. People are dying, blood is being spilt. Thousands of people -- tens of thousands -- are on the move getting out. And they need protection, principally from the skies. They need military support. Is Canada going to provide that?

BR: It's not something that Canada would do on its own. I think you know that. You know very well that we're members of a military alliance that whatever we do, whatever form of intervention we would take, it would be with… with others. And I can only say that there's a meeting tomorrow of NATO. There are further discussions underway as to what more can be done. But it's not something that you can just snap your fingers and say, this is what we're going to do. It… each move that one makes has all sorts of practical questions about how it gets done. And then also very practical questions about what would the consequences of that be?

CO: So when you speak of NATO, the issue is here is that NATO is looking at containment. It's looking at avoiding a spill-over of this conflict. But, at the same time, what we're hearing out of Ukraine is that they feel that they are alone. That the President Zelensky says they call this an attack on the world, but we're doing it alone. We're fighting this alone. What do you say to President Zelensky tonight?

BR: That his country's been invaded by a very ruthless neighbour. And that we have done everything we can to try to persuade that neighbour by both… both in terms of what we say directly to them, but also by steps that we take elsewhere to persuade them that this is something they shouldn't do. And that if they do it, there will be very serious consequences. But I do think it has to be understood that to… to send Canadian troops into or Canadian Air Force pilots into a situation without being fully cognisant of the consequences of not being aware of who else would be with us and how else it would be done is not something that, as I said, can be done at the snap of the fingers. I've just finished having a meeting with the… with the Ukrainian representative here at the UN. And at the United Nations, we're waiting for the Security Council vote. From what I'm hearing from… from him is a great deal of appreciation for what Canada has done, what Canada has expressed, the support that Canada has provided. And we're going to continue to do that. And we're going to continue to work with… with NATO, with any other partners that we can, to see what further steps can be taken. But I think that's… at this at this point, that's… that's what I have to say.

CO: Ambassador Rae, I appreciate your time.

BR: Thank you very much, Carol. It's good to talk to you.

[Music: Ambient]

Ukraine: Father

MARK CONNOLLY: What do you want other Canadians to know about the significance of what's happening in Ukraine right now?

[/sc]

CH: Father Cornell Zubritsky is the associate priest at Edmonton's Ukrainian Orthodox Cathedral of St. John the Baptist. He was speaking with Mark Connolly, host of Edmonton AM.

CH: As the Russian invasion of Ukraine continues, the exodus of people heading to Poland grows. And their numbers are putting an enormous strain on transportation services. Thousands of people have had to make the gruelling journey on foot. Manny Marotta is one of those people. He's an American-Italian freelance journalist who'd been working in Ukraine. We reached him in Przemyśli, Poland, where he's currently taking refuge.

CO: Manny, can you describe exactly where you're staying right now?

MM: Well, yesterday, I woke up to the sound of air-raid sirens and the news that Russia had commenced bombing major cities in Ukraine, including an area just south of Lviv. Furthermore, there were missile strikes on a city that was very near to the Lviv called Ivano-Frankivs'k. And it was projected that Russia would immediately begin bombing Lviv. And that's why the air raid sirens were sounding. And so the citizens of the city, who had lived there all their lives, were very nervous about being. They were stocking up on food. They were making long queues at the ATMs. And it appeared that there was this doomed atmosphere. This feeling that the Russians would be there any minute. And they still might be here any minute because the invasion has only been 48 hours old. So me, and my roommate, who's a British journalist, decided that as Westerners, we had to get out now. And so we went to the train station. And the train station had no trains until March 1st. This was unsatisfactory. So we went to the bus station. And the bus station had no buses until February 28th. This wasn't satisfactory. So we looked into renting a car. We looked into car hire. We looked into Uber, Lyft, BlaBlaCar, which is the Ukrainian version of Uber. There was really no viable way to get out of Ukraine because everybody was trying these things already. There was an exodus of people on the road. It was pandemonium.

CO: An extraordinary image. And this is night and day, right? So they're walking during the night as well.

MM: So right now, at the beginning of the walk, it's… it was daytime. And we started around 1:00 in the afternoon. And by the time the sun was setting, we were in a place where there were many refugees. And nighttime brought new terrors because there were no streetlights. This was a random provincial highway and no street lights. The only lights were in the headlights of the few cars that were still running. There was a lot of terrifying imagery that was going on. There were people getting robbed from what we understood. There were random acts of violence that were happening. People would get lost. And you could hear people crying for help everywhere. It was… it was just sort of a terrible scene. And then, even worse, the Ukrainian military came along and started finding all the men aged 18 to 65 and then making announcements that Zelensky had just decided that all Ukrainian man aged 18 to 65, regardless of circumstance, were to be drafted, conscripted and sent east immediately.

CO: How did the men respond to that?

MM: Most of the men were with their families. It's not like these were single men travelling, and they could get drafted and taken to the East, and it would be no problem. These were people who had families, who had responsibilities, who were caretakers, especially in this emergency time. They were trying to take care of their families, and they were simply torn away from their families, quite literally. And so, you had men arguing. They said, this is inhumane. This is terrible. I have a young child, and I have a wife, and they need me, and you're tearing me away from them to go fight in your war. What are you doing? And the army didn't care. And they said, get on the bus or… or else.

CO: And now, you are with many other refugees there. What are people going to do? Are there… are you being provided? Are they getting any… any help from the Poles?

MM: So the Poles were infinitely more helpful, at least in reception than the Ukrainians were. The Ukrainians just cared about pulling the men out and conscripting them. And the Poles… the Poles greeted us with doughnuts and tea and a bus to the city. And now we're in the city, and there's a thousand other refugees in the city. And so I'm sleeping in a room with six others, and it's a little… little cosy. But they're nice.

MM: Thank you, and thank you to the CBC.

CH: Jawed Ahmad Haqmal and his family are experiencing an awful case of déjà vu. Mr. Haqmal was a translator for the Canadian military and the Globe and Mail, during the war in Afghanistan. He and his family left his homeland for Ukraine in August. They were stuck there, while they waited for their immigration paperwork to be processed. Then Russia invaded. We reached Jawed Ahmad Haqmal earlier today, at a hotel in Kyiv.

CO: And what effect is that having on you and your family and your children that you should be… have taken refuge in Kyiv from war in Afghanistan? And now you're seeing it where you are?

JAH: [chuckles] Yeah, this is the question I'm answering. The question every time I have for myself in which situation I lead my family. What I was expecting for my family to give them a safe life, a good life, to be educated, to go to school, to have a nice life, to have a nice home. But, unfortunately, we are stuck here for the last six months without any reasons. And this is just happening to me because of the bureaucracy of the Canadian government.

CO: And how are they coping with this? What… how are they even… how are the kids reacting to being in a war zone again?

JAH: Exactly. They're… from the last night, every kid is crying. I even am unable to get… calm them. When there is a big explosion, everyone is running to the bathroom, just hiding with their mom's arms and it is really frustrating. It just makes me really feels very bad.

CO: And your wife is pregnant, right?

JAH: Unfortunately, the worst problem is my wife is six months pregnant. And from the last night, when she heard these explosions, this war situation, she feels very worry about this. And I'm just scaring if she loses her baby or she give birth very early because it is her sixth month.

CO: If that were to be the case, would you be able to get medical assistance?

JAH: Unfortunately, no, because there is no access to any medical centres. So if she gets in a worse situation, so the only thing is my mother is here, my sister-in-law is, so they will be just cooperating here. There is no way else.

CO: Can you just tell us a bit about your situation? Because you are… you didn't go to Ukraine to stay there. You're on your way to Canada. Tell us… tell us why… what's happening with your… your ability to come here?

CO: We know that large numbers of people have been evacuated from the Canadian Embassy in Ukraine. Are you able to make contact with anybody at the embassy -- the Canadian Embassy -- to see if they can help you?

CO: There are reports of more fighting in Kyiv. So, what do you worry might happen to your family if Russia takes control of the city?

CO: Jawed, we will leave it there. I'm so sorry this is happening to you, but it's good to get your story out and into Canada. So thank you.

JAH: Thank you so much. Really appreciate it.

CH: Jawed Ahmad Haqmal is an Afghan refugee trying to get to Canada. We reached him in Kyiv. We contacted the Immigration Minister's office for comment on Mr. Haqmal's case, but didn't receive a reply by air time.

CH: As Russia hits Ukraine with the full might of its military, the EU and the U.S. responded with more economic sanctions. The EU says the latest round of sanctions will target 70% of the Russian banking system. And meanwhile, today, the U.S. joined Europe in a move to freeze the assets of Vladimir Putin and Sergey Lavrov, his foreign minister. But so far, Europe has been reluctant to impose harsher measures, such as expelling Russia from the SWIFT international banking system. Late today, Justin Trudeau said Canada strongly supports the withdrawal of Russia from the SWIFT system. Michael Gahler is a German Member of European Parliament and its Standing Rapporteur on Ukraine. We reached him in Paris.

MICHAEL GAHLER: Definitely not. And if any proof is needed, the Moscow Stock Exchange this morning was soaring around 20 per cent because they had expected something far worse. And we in the European Parliament, I think, and also today in our inter-parliamentary meeting that we had in Paris with members of National and European Parliament, we were also mostly not happy because we could have done more. We have seen a total onslaught ongoing from the Russian aggressor against an innocent Ukraine.

CO: It's the government of your country -- of Germany -- that seems to be pushing the hardest against or trying to water down these sanctions because of gas and because of what your country relies on from the… from Russia. And so, they say the sense is is that this could be consequences for Germany. So what do you say to that?

MG: Yes, it will have consequences for Germany, but for all of us. And I'm very upset about this German government position because had they listened to the Commission President, Ursula von der Leyen, she clearly said, and there is evidence, we will not be in the cold in this winter. There is enough gas available for this cold season, and we are in parallel investigating further locations where we might get that from. And there is… are prospects in this regard. So indeed, for… for… for us, it might be a higher price, but we will not see… sit in the cold. But for Ukraine, it's an existential threat whether we now really kneel down Russia… nail it down and exclude them from… from SWIFT or not? In two or three or four days, it might be too late.

CO: For people who don't know the SWIFT system, could you just tell us what… because the European Council now says it will consider removing Russia from the SWIFT system. What does that actually mean? What would that do?

MG: Actually, it is a private platform. It's a private company based in Brussels that does the exchange of… of the payments that take place between the banks globally and organizes that. You know, when you have a transaction on your account, you… you add the SWIFT code? That is from this company, and they arrange that. And if you exclude Russia, not only single banks, we have already excluded single banks, that has an effect already. But if Russia as a whole is excluded from that, that really would cause a breakdown of the payment systems in this country. And I think that is something that the country, this ruthless regime would really feel.

CO: People are describing this as a kind of World War Three situation or a World War. But in Ukraine, they don't see it as the world being part of this. People were speaking to feel very much alone in their battle. What do you need to do? What should Europe be doing in order to show Ukraine is really going to help them?

MG: Thank you very much. [Speaking Ukrainian]

CH: Michael Gahler is a German Member of European Parliament and its Standing Rapporteur on Ukraine. He's in Paris.

CH: As we heard earlier, some Ukrainians have stayed in Kyiv to fight -- but many have decided to flee. Yesterday, the roads out of the capital were clogged with traffic yesterday as tens of thousands left. But tonight, as the fighting gets closer, many have no option but to hunker down. Svitlana Zalishchuk is a former Ukrainian MP who left her home in Kyiv. We reached her earlier today near Lviv.

CO: What did you see in the city before you left?

SZ: When we decide to… decided to leave, like hundreds of thousands of people probably will leave already the city. The roads were completely blocked, packed with cars. The traffic jams like… long as for like hours and hours, you know? I think there was a problem already to get some petrol. And people were standing also in front of the ATMs. People were trying to withdraw some money. Everything was closed. Streets were completely empty as well.

CO: And what were you able to take with you?

SZ: I took jeans, and I took some old trainers and I took one dress, you know? And then also, I took a book, and that's… that's it. That's all I have.

CO: Another person who is targeted, president of Ukraine, Zelensky, said today he believes himself to be target number one. What happens, do you think, if the Russians make it to the president's office?

CO: Ukraine is telling men between the ages of 18 and 60 not to leave the country or urging them not to. Is your husband possibly going to take up arms?

SZ: Well, my husband is a British citizen, so the martial law is not… is not extended to him. But I have an older brother, and he's in Ukraine, he's a reservist and definitely not going anywhere. And if called, he will… he will do his duty.

CO: And how fierce do you think that resistance on the part of Ukrainians will be?

SZ: The resistance is extremely strong. And you can see that through those fights that are happening because I think also even in the east and in the south, somehow Putin thought that since those cities are Russian speaking, he would be welcomed there. But none of the cities have surrendered, you know? None of the cities have surrendered. And many people will lose lives, but we're standing up to the Russian troops. And I also want to say that the whole nation, like 40 million people nation, hates Putin, hates his army, hates all those people who are… who started this… this war. And buried forever, you know, the world order, the security in Europe that has been cherished for… since 1945.

CO: Where will you go now? Are you safe where you are? Or do you have to get further out of the country?

SZ: Thank you so much. Thank you.

CH: Svitlana Zalishchuk is a former Ukrainian MP who left her home in Kyiv. We reached her earlier today near Lviv.

Ukraine: Canadians

Guest: Lily Hordienko

CO: Lily, I know you have family in Ukraine. How are they doing?

LILY HORDIENKO: They started out a lot more positive than they were. They're living in the west part of Ukraine, which until recently we were under the impression that it would be safe there. There is no place that is safe right now. Lviv is also under target, and they have been bombed. So the family is… is… right now, they're struggling. They're trying to figure out what their next move is. They do have a cottage that is outside of the city, which would be a little bit more remote. But they've got young children too, so they have… they're eight of them they have to worry about. So it's not an easy decision.

LH: Unbelievable.

LH: Geez! Unbelievable, yeah.

LH: It's elementary, so it's JK, so three or four years old. Right now, they'd be four to up to 14.

CO: But they must be picking up a lot. I mean, their kids, but they pick up vibes, right? They must be feeling at home a lot of tension?

LH: They do. They do. So I know that talking to one of the bus drivers, they were saying that when the children were entering, a couple of the adults were saying, you know, don't say anything in front of them so that they didn't… so that they don't have to hear about it. And… and the kids overheard and they said, we know everything. They… they hear it, they feel it, they see it. Many of them are, you know, at home. When they go home, they're… they're trying to reach family members, they're talking to them. So they are very aware. I mean, the older ones understand a little bit more than the younger ones, but they're very much aware that there's… there's something going on. And they know about planes that are going down. And it's a lot to process for a child.

CO: And the news is on, I'm sure, in every household.

CO: Watching it all the time, just… and they're harrowing scenes coming out of there.

CO: You're also a member of the Ukrainian Canadian Congress, which is organizing a rally tonight, right?

CO: Can you tell us about that?

LH: Sure. So the rally is outside the Ukrainian consulate on Lake Shore, and we had one last week, and we're doing one again today. And it's basically to… to show our support for Ukraine. There was a rally at Nathan Phillips Square yesterday, not organized by the Ukrainian Canadian Congress, but we were invited to attend. And there were many different groups that were there showing their support for Ukraine. Particularly, there were a couple of members from the Korean community that were standing up for Ukraine and saying that the world needs to stand up right now because this is… this is setting a precedent. And if this happens to Ukraine, then China is going to do this to Korea. And they… you know, they are very supportive and very understanding of what we're going through right now.

CO: That's so interesting. Yesterday, there were some rallies in Montreal. And interviews with Russians who were there with the Ukrainians because they feel the same way. That they're horrified, they're… they're ashamed, they said, of their country and what it's doing.

LH: There are… there's a growing number of support. A number of people who are supporting in Russia, being a Russian, being proud of being Russian has nothing to do with supporting what Putin's doing right now.

CO: You… the goal, I guess in part, is to not just show Ukrainians that you're supporting them, but to try and get a message to Ottawa, to Canada. What's the message you want there?

LH: The message is that the sanctions that we have in place are not working. We need to step up our game, or this is going to go on and it could be going on for a very, very long time. We have to have a no-fly zone above Ukraine in order to… to stop what's happening. We need to have some more personal financial assets to be… to be sanctioned and travel sanctions.

CO: And are you hearing from Ottawa what you want to hear?

LH: Not enough. Not enough. We're extremely thankful for the support that we're getting to date, but it clearly, it's evident now. Day two is done now. We see that it's not letting up. They're going harder. Putin is uttering threats that if anybody gets involved that they will pay the highest consequences that they've ever seen. So he's… he's threatening so that people are afraid to get more involved, but we need to get involved. This is not… this is not enough, and it's not making enough of a difference.

CO: Meanwhile, you have all those little kids. And so, how are teachers dealing with it? How are… are they explaining? Are they trying to help the kids understand what's going on?

LH: So the ones who are of Ukrainian descent, many of them are, you know, either recent immigrants or they've… they've got close family there. So they are talking to the students about what's going on. The kids know what's going on, but they're trying to talk to them to let them to… to comfort them, basically. I mean, these children are trying to process that there are planes that are going down, there are bombs going off. I mean, how can they even put their head around something a concept like that and then equate and say, well, I'm safe here. Well, how do I know I'm safe? I mean, where they were… some of them were living in Ukraine. It was safe, you know, two months ago, sa they were there for Christmas or, you know, it's… it's something that they can't quite put their head around. And they're… they're looking for… some of the children are anxious. They're looking for somebody to come in and say, everything's going to be okay. So we have our Ukrainian teachers, we have our parish priest who is very actively involved in the school. He's been around. We've had our prayer services. We are talking about it. So we don't want to just dismiss it and brush it under the rug because these children need to talk about it. They need to understand. But we are also… we have had our social worker in the building. We have had our guidance counsellor, guidance teacher in the building. And so we're… we're trying to navigate as best as we can. But the way Ukrainians… our community is very tight, so we tend to turn to one another for support. And at this point in time, we're… we're gaining support from one another, and that's where we're… we're turning to the church, we're turning to our community, and that's giving us a lot of strength right now.

[Music: World]

Historic Hut Demolished

[sc]

DAVID GRAY: Yeah. We think we're tough and fit today. But just imagine what those guys were. [both laughing] Smoking a pipe with hobnailed boots boots. Anyway, I'm sure I'm not the only one who was saddened by this news. What's your reaction?

[Music: Ambient]

Preview: Adrienne Arsenault

CO: No. She was in jail at the time, but her… she was going to have a trial shortly after I got there. And somehow, I was going to go to Karachi and go and see her and interview her. [blowing raspberry] Anyway, I arrived and realized right away that I made a serious mistake. That I was… I was way in over my head. I have no idea. I was in a strict Muslim country, and there was nothing… I was never going to get anywhere. And then there was the plane I came in on was hijacked, and we began to cover this live, not knowing what was going to happen next. And eventually, I mean, it ended badly when the hijackers did set off an explosion, and people were killed. But I was… the immediacy of that, being able to cover that, to be there, it was transformative. I wanted, you know, it's almost like a drug. You want… you want to be there in the middle of action. And the truth of the matter is [chuckling] that because of all the international reporters who had arrived the next day, because of this… it was an American…. it was a Pan Am air flight airline that was hijacked. All these American reporters arrived, and they released Benazir Bhutto from jail because they didn't want the trial to go on with all these American reporters there. And I got an interview with her. [laughing] And so… and then I just kept going. I just didn't stop from there.

AA: Why?

CO: Oh, I have to say Afghanistan for sure. Not only because of feeling so strongly about the people there and being caught up in what many reporters felt was that somehow this was a just war and that we were doing… that Canadians were there trying to make a space for girls to go to school and for peace to happen. And buying into that and then realizing with a sour disappointment that this was… that wasn't true at all. That this was just a continuation of everything. And that we were going to leave, which we did. I had a moment in the field I was… we were in the middle of… we very expensively hired all kinds of guns to protect us and cars and went into the poppy fields to see opium production. And getting there, and we find a man, a poppy farmer, and I'm interviewing him. And we're getting the goods. And he's telling us about this. And I'm looking up on the hill, and I can see black cars, arriving vehicles, people getting out of them watching. And I realized, oh, we're going… we got to go, but we're going to leave him behind when we do. And I said, shut ‘er down. Don't… I'm not asking any more questions.

AA: But this notion of being responsible for people. I mean, this is… this is a thread that runs through your life very clearly, your professional life in particular. So you wrote… you wrote this book about leaving people behind and the responsibility there. Very, very briefly in that story, did you wonder if you had crossed a journalistic line? I mean, advocating for someone to get somebody out after doing a story with them, I mean, was that getting too involved?

CO: Oh, I knew I had crossed the line for sure. And the… the… but I couldn't do otherwise. A man had trusted me and given me all this assistance. We’d gone into the land of warlords. I wouldn't have had the story. And I won an award. We came back. It won a Gemini for us. Ya hoo for us! Aren't we amazing reporters? And then, to find out just shortly after that, he had had to run for his life with his family. What do you do? I’m thinking, oh, that's… gosh, that's too bad, isn't it? Oh, well, that sort of stuff happens, doesn't it? Got to go! No, it was impossible. Impossible.

CH: That's part of Carol's interview with The National's Adrienne Arseneault. You can hear the rest of their conversation on Monday when we'll have our special rescheduled final farewell to Carol -- as she leaves As It Happens.

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February 25, 2022 Episode Transcript

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