The AIH Transcript For February 24, 2022

[hosts]Carol Off, Chris Howden[/hosts]

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden, this is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

CO Withholding Pattern. Canada's Minister of National Defence, Anita Anand, says that, if the Kremlin continues its intrusion into Ukraine, the sanctions Canada and its allies have imposed so far will be just the beginning.

CH: Dry spell. With Somalia in the grip of a relentless drought, aid groups issue an urgent call for assistance -- and one aid worker tells us about the scenes playing out in the country's crowded displacement camps.

CO: Making heroism look like grandchild's play. We'll speak with the mother of a six-year-old who's been honoured for bravery by the RCMP -- because she bravely went for help after her grandmother was in a car crash.

CH: Back track record. The winner of the Kentucky Derby is now the loser, after banned substances were found in its system -- and a reporter who covers racing says the incident has run roughshod over public trust in the sport.

CO: Solo survivor. Over 30 years ago, virtuoso guitarist Jason Becker was diagnosed with ALS -- but he's still making music today. We'll have an encore presentation of our 2012 interview with him.

CH: And remembrance of things fast. Tonight, we'll quiz Carol about her past interviews for the final time -- in a new format so rapid fire she'll need the clues to sprint her memory instead of just jogging it.

CH: As It Happens, the Wednesday edition. Radio that introduces the hostess with the most tests.

[Music: Theme]

Guest: Kseniya Kharchenko

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[Sound: The harsh blare of air raid sirens]

CH: The sound of air raid sirens in Kyiv today, around 7:00 a.m. local time. That warning came after Russian President Vladimir Putin announced a "special military operation" in Ukraine. Explosions were heard in multiple cities across the country. And today, we've watched a full-scale invasion -- by land and sea. Ukraine's health minister said dozens of people were killed -- and there are stories of residents, carrying suitcases, fleeing to other countries. Kseniya Kharchenko lives in Kyiv and works in publishing. We reached her at home earlier today.

CO: Kseniya, what was your first clue this morning that something big was beginning?

KSENIYA KHACHENKO: Well, we were like waiting for something big, and we were still hoping that this will not happen. But when I woke in the morning around 6:00 a.m., I've heard this sound that I have never heard in my life before. And obviously, it was not a New Year's Eve with the fireworks. And then, I reached for my smartphone, and I saw the news. And then, I was like, you know, suffering. But I did watch Putin's announcement, and he basically, in my opinion, announced the Third World War. I was, like, following messages, like, in the morning, and I tried to leave the city as soon as I could.

CO: So you tried to leave the city. You have a child, right?

KK: Yes, I have a child. I have five-years-old kid. And I have an ex-husband because I'm divorced, and he's now with us. And we were driving two cars because he wanted to go back. And we couldn't. We just couldn't leave because everybody was leaving. And there is so many cars. Like, the whole city is covered with cars.

CO: Where were you headed? Where were you hoping to get?

KK: I was heading, like, to the West because I have some friends, like, in different cities. But still, I have no relatives, you know, who would take us for like weeks or months or whatever. And my parents are here. My relatives are here. Whenever they leave Kyiv, I kind of, you know, heading to the carrier of refugee because, you know, whenever I come, I will have to pay lots of money in order to stay somewhere because this is like, this is the war. And people are going to, you know, try to make as much money as possible.

CO: And what about your… your… your child, your five-year-old? How is he responding to all this?

KK: Well, I'm not sure if he realizes what's going on because I was trying to explain him, and he's nervous because he feels what I feel and what I'm really sorry for. Because he didn't want to fall asleep yesterday night, and I was really tired. And I was so exhausted. I was working for the whole day, and I was like, so excited. I was supposed to work as a fixer with the BBC for the weekend, and that was kind of a source of my, you know, kind of how to deal with my own anxiety, you know how to be someone else except for being the mom of a kid, you know, trying to escape. But then I really… I shouted at him because it was like 11:00 p.m. And he was still looking for something. He couldn't fall asleep. And we were supposed to wake up early in the morning to go to the kindergarten. And then I shouted so badly. And then he was crying, and then he fell asleep. And then I woke up at 6:00 a.m. with all those bombings. And we were trained to go for a vacation like a week ago and two weeks ago, and I didn't. It's like, I wish I knew it before we would, you know, do something. But what I have now is what I have now.

CO: When you said you wish you had known because he said… and Vladimir Putin said he was not going to do this. Clearly, that's not true. He has invaded. He said that he is going to demilitarize and denazify Ukraine. What does that mean to you? What does that… what does that say to you?

KK: This says to me that he's a madman, and he's gaslighting the whole world. And if there is someone who still believes him, then they are a madman, too. [chuckle] Am I clear?

CO: Yeah. And --

KK: Or should I put some other words.

CO: No, but he's also, in fact, and the West…. [KK's son shouts in the background] That's your boy there?

KK: There is my kid, with his father, in another room. Okay.

CO: Yes. But he… it's interesting that Mr. Putin also sent the same warning to the West that if you try and help, that there will be already put in place consequences for you. So what should…

KK: Yes.

CO: it's not just what you're going through. What… what should the rest of the world take from that?

KK: The rest of the world should look at the Hitler, look at Stalin, look at what followed and then have its lessons. Because it's not that everybody will wait. It will move further, or we will pay with our lives like millions of lives, and we will be with our country, with our independence that we have been fighting for centuries.

CO: You're 37 years old. And so… what? What are your… your greatest fears of what's happening now?

KK: My greatest fear is that they will occupy us and that we will have to surrender. This is my greatest fear. Because I was born in Soviet Union, but my parents, they were never, like, pro-Soviet. They hated this regime, like, so badly. And I remember it when I was, like, six years old, and it was 1991. And they were watching TV, and they were watching our parliament voting for independence. And then, I was 20 years old, and I was participating in an Orange Revolution as a student. And then, I was… in 2014, I was participating in the Revolution of Dignity, and then there was a war that lasts for eight years so far. These are not separatists. There are no people to save in Donbas. This is a Russian invasion. My mom's cousin, she gave her a call from Russia today, and she was crying and saying, oh my God, don't be afraid, they're just bombing all those military units. So you have not to be afraid as a civilian. It's insane because people do believe it, and we are like, you know, don't look up. We just don't look up, don't look up, don't look at Putin. You know, he's so good. He's so good. He's not a dictator. He's not going to destroy everyone. He's not going to destroy the largest country in Europe.

CO: But, you know, otherwise? Or you believe otherwise?

KK: Yes. You know, it was like two days ago, and I was on the air on BBC, and they were asking me, like, What am I like… what am I thinking? What am I preparing for? And so on. And I was like, Okay, so what if, like all those air bombings will take place? And the host asked me, oh, do you believe in it? And I said, Well, Mr. Johnson said that it is possible. And I'd like today's best and it has happened. So yes.

CO: What are you going to do now?

KK: I will… I don't know. I will wait for the city to come down and get if it's possible. Some of my friends are going to spend the night in the shelters in the subway station. But I don't know what to do?

CO: Kseniya, I'm so sorry this is happening to you, and… and for your little boy as well. We will be, of course, following this watching this. Canadians are very, very engaged in this story. But thank you.

KK: I hope they don't believe Putin. Or do they?

CO: No, I don't think so. But anyway, but thank you. I think people… people are following it and watching.

KK: I hope they will hear my voice, and they will, like… I don't know, there's so many people who send us money, and the huge Ukrainian diaspora in Canada. And, like, you know, the worst thing is that I will lose everything that I have here, my family, my parents. [beginning to cry] And it will end up as a refugee somewhere. And it's really hard to imagine. Or I will stay here with Russians, you know? And I will not be able to leave. Well, I have nothing more to say. Thank you for listening.

CO: Kseniya, thank you. Take care.

KK: Okay, bye-bye.

CO: Bye.

KK: Bye-bye.

CH: That was Kyiv resident Kseniya Kharchenko speaking with us earlier today. For more on her story, go to our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

Guest: Oleksiy Honcharuk

CH: As Russian troops move in, even some Ukrainian politicians are preparing to take up arms. Oleksiy Honcharuk is the former Prime Minister of Ukraine. We reached him earlier today in Kyiv.

CO: Mr. Honcharuk, Before we get into the international politics of all this, I understand you are personally preparing to fight invading Russian forces. Is that right?

OLEKSIY HONCHARUK: Yes, of course. Like, I am. And a lot of my friends and the people I know, Ukrainians I know, was trying to be prepared for the situation. Ukraine faced war eight years ago, and it's not a new story for us.

CO: What are you doing to prepare then?

OH: Well, look, now we are not preparing. Now,we are acting. It's already happened. But to prepare, you should train some skills. How to act, how to do with weapons, how it works, how to shoot, what you should do, how to create a blog post and so on and so forth. How to patrol the streets. What should we be prepared for is to push back with all possible ways we have.

CO: But at the same time, you know far better than I that you are outgunned when it comes to Russia. The firepower they can and are already bringing into Ukraine, no matter how well-trained your forces are, it's… you're up against a formidable power. Do you think you can actually resist?

OH: I think that it's… it's an aggression against Ukraine only. It's an aggression against all democratic, all free and Western world. Because Ukraine was invaded eight years ago, and invaded now because of our democratic choice. Because we are a free country, a democratic country. And Putin don't… he's afraid, his main threat to have a democracy in Russia, actually. And that's why for him, free and democratic Ukraine as a neighbour is a very big strategic problem.

CO: We're all trying to read and understand what motives there might be for Mr. Putin to do this. It doesn't seem like a rational thing, but you're suggesting that's because he doesn't want to have a democratic country on his doorstep, as Ukraine is?

OH: Of course, it's obvious. It's obvious. It's a war against democracy. This war started not today. This war started a long time ago. You can see that all more or less democratic countries, neighbours with Russia have the territorial and military problems with Russia, actually. So, Moldova, Georgia and in Ukraine actually now. Russia and Putin is scared to have a democracy in Russia, actually. He's scared by Russia… possible the Russian streets and Russian people. Because I believe that even people in Russia wants to be free, you know? And Ukraine is a free country. It's a huge and perfect example how people in the post-Soviet space can build the free and, like, successful country, a democratic country.

CO: I believe the bordering countries are preparing for a huge number of refugees coming out of Ukraine. What are you expecting tonight and in the coming days as people try and get out of the country?

OH: Well, of course, a lot of people now are trying to make sure that their children and wives are safe. Yeah, and thank you to our neighbours, to Poland, to, like, Moldova, to a lot of neighbouring country and friendly countries for the support. But it's not enough. Unfortunately, it's not enough. We need the military support. And economic sanctions is not enough. It's very important to understand now that Putin will not stop. Putin will not stop. And for him, it's not the problem even to invade the NATO countries. You… you can see… you can see now that he is a mad person. He's absolutely crazy to invade the biggest country, peaceful democratic country in Europe, like, it's amazing, you know? So one thing, I… I believe that. And it's obvious that Russians understand that Putin understands only power and the economic sanctions as a response. It's very good to block streets and to like, launch some embargo and so on and so forth, to ban oil and gas trade and so forth. But it's not enough. It's not enough.

CO: And it's not just about Ukraine, is it? Because he… in the recent pronouncements of Mr. Putin, he has said, he's warned that any country that intervenes to try and help Ukraine will face serious consequences. I mean, it's a threat to them as well. So what… how should the West respond to the fact that… that he is actually extending this threat to other countries?

OH: Well, look. This is the evidence for what I said. Nobody, like, not a single country, especially in the… in the Eastern Europe is safe until Putin thinks that he can do everything he wants, you know? This is very simple concept. If you will show him weakness, you will have a lot of problems with these guys. Because if Putin see the open door, he will enter this door. Now, the situation around Ukraine is a test for the whole Western world. It's not a regional conflict. It's not a regional conflict. It's not… there is no… any… any real reason, serious reason between Russian and Ukraine to have a war. That is the only one problem for Mr Putin, that Ukraine is a free democratic Western-orriented country. Because Ukraine want to be a part of the free world. This is the main problem. This is the main threat to Mr Putin. And that's why we have a war in Ukraine now. And now, Ukrainian people pay the highest possible price for this freedom. And not only for… for the freedom of Ukraine, but for the freedom all Europe and all the world, I believe.

CO: We heard in recent days earlier this week that the United States, Their intelligence shows that there is a list already drawn up in Russia for those who… who will be arrested. And do you worry, as a former prime minister of Ukraine, do you suspect you might be on that list?

OH: I know that I'm on this list, so it's obvious. I think that Putin, it is very important to destroy. And it's not arrest. I believe we are speaking about the murders we're speaking about. So they are going to kill all this people, I believe. This is one more attempt to destroy the Ukrainian political elite. The Ukrainian civil society elite, the Ukrainian intellectual elite and… and… and cultural elite. For Putin, it's very important to destroy Ukraine and Ukrainian people because the core of Ukrainian… of Ukrainian nation is freedom. Three revolutions to protect our freedom. And now we have a war to protect our freedom. This is only a problem for Mr Putin, that the Ukrainian nation is free and democratic.

CO: Just finally, sir, what… what is your message to Canada and the Canadian government tonight?

OH: Not to lose the time. This is… this is a country, a leader, one of the leaders in the Western world. I am sure that Canada could be a leader of the process to provide not only economic sanctions as tough as possible, but Canada should realize that it's absolutely necessary to show Mr Putin that no go to Ukraine, no go. Ukrainian forces already pushed back, successfully pushed back. But it's only a question of time because of difference in resources, you know? And they are destroying our infrastructure. They are destroying our… killing our people. And this is an absolutely obvious situation. And it's absolutely impossible just to wait and to, like, to see what will happen. So I believe that Canada could be the first country to tell the truth to the world, that it's impossible to stay aside, that it's absolutely necessary to provide the military support, military help to Ukraine. if Ukraine will faIL, NATO will pay a much higher price. The civilized democratic world will pay a much higher price than the Ukrainians are paying right now.

CO: All right. We have to leave it there, Mr. Honcharuk, I appreciate speaking with you tonight. Please stay safe.

OH: Thank you very much.

CH: Oleksiy Honcharuk is the former Prime Minister of Ukraine. We reached him earlier today in Kyiv.

Canadian Mychailo Wynnyckyj spent his morning hurriedly packing up. Mr. Wynnyckyj is a sociology professor at Kyiv-Mohyla Academy. He lives in Kyiv with his four children. And he woke up today determined to get his family out. Here is part of his conversation with the CBC's Ismaila Alfa

[sc]

MYCHAILO WYNNYCKYJ: We are gradually seeing less and less people in the streets. The main wave of people that were leaving the city has left, and we had huge traffic jams going out all morning. We will be leaving as well shortly because in addition to having rocket attacks this morning, we've had our first view of paratroopers. We have a sort of a summer cottage, I guess, that's… that's about 120 kilometres south of Kyiv. It looks like… it looks like that's the place that we'll find refuge in for the… for the time being. The original plan, of course, was that many, many people thought that western Ukraine would be… would be a safe haven. But as we've seen, Putin's attacks have gone basically across… across the board everywhere. We figure that it's safer to be in a non-urban area than it is to be in an urban area. We made sure that we'd be… we'd have foodstuffs there. And… and we've got generators and that sort of thing. So, I mean, if absolutely necessary, we can last this thing out because I don't think it's going to be more than a month's time. If absolutely necessary. But obviously, with four kids, I wouldn't want to put them through that kind of stress. So the sooner this thing ends, the better. And it better be ending with… with, with Putin getting a bloody nose. Because if it ends in any other way, it's going to drag out in a very, very long time. There's a lot of people here that are very ready to resist any kind of further aggression than… I mean, we've got upwards of 50 per cent of the people that are… that are talking about actually resisting with arms. So, this could end up being a very long fight, including all kinds of partisan war, etc. And I certainly don't want my kids to be part of that.

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CH: That was Mychailo Wynnyckyj, originally from Kitchener, Ontario --- now living in Ukraine. He spoke with our colleague Ismaila Alfa as he prepared to leave Kyiv.

Guest: Arshak Makichyan

CH: Tonight, in Russia, it's clear that not everyone is behind President Putin's push for war. Anti-war protests were held in 39 Russian cities. Hundreds of people were arrested. Arshak Makichyan is a Russian activist. We reached him earlier today in Moscow.

CO: Arshak, I understand you are on your way to an anti-war rally in Moscow. What are you expecting there?

ARSHAK MAKICHYAN: I don't know. I'm there… for me, a lot of people, I hope. Because the war that's happening now, it's terrible. It's like a crime. It's our crime because we are Russians, and Russia is invading Ukraine. And it's terrible, and we are against it, and we're going to protest, even though, like, protesting in Russia, it's dangerous. Like most of our political activists in Russia, they prosecuted everyone the last few years. And now, it's quite dangerous to do that. But we should protest against it because if we don't, the situation will be worse and worse.

CO: But now, you know, as you say, it's already dangerous to protest in Russia. But the Russian authorities gave another, warning, an extra warning today. They said that any… there will be negative legal consequences for anyone who protests. It would be in the form of prosecution, criminal liability. They say all necessary measures to ensure public order will be used. So, is it possible you will be arrested today if you go to this rally?

AM: I think it's not important because maybe I will be arrested today or tomorrow. It's… it's not that important because, like now, they killing people in Ukraine. They invading countries. It's impossible in 21st century to invade the whole country. And it's really terrible. And everyone, if we won't do this protest or won't do anything, we will feel ourselves terrible because it's our country. And it's our responsibility to protest against this. So, yeah, I don't know, maybe I will be arrested. Or, most likely, a lot of my friends will be arrested. But I think, at the end, we will win because I have watched what they're doing. It's insane. And we should protest against it together like everywhere because it's really terrible that… what they are doing.

CO: Is this… is this Russia's war, or is it the Kremlin's war?

AM: Yeah, of course it's Kremlin's war. Russian people do not want a war because we don't need this land for anything. We do not want to war with Ukraine. We want peace, and we want normal life. We want to protest for climate, to protest for our future. And now, we don't have a future. We have just today's terrible… these terrible days. And we're protesting for, like, our next day maybe? I don't know?

CO: But do you think that there are many Russians who don't see it your way? That… who worry that… who believe that NATO expansion is a threat to people who agree with Mr. Putin?

AM: Propaganda in Russia is working quite well. Like, they own almost all our media in Russia. And most our independent media were declared foreign agents, and it's quite difficult for them to exist. But I think, like most of the Russian people, do not want a war because there will be terrible consequences for Russia like economical consequences and historical. Because it's like… it's a mistake to invade another country. It's… what Putin is saying, it's like so stupid and insane that, like, you can cannot imagine that such a thing is happening in today, but it's happening. And so, we should protest against it because we're losing our country, I think.

CO: There are a number of people in Russia commenting. I've heard on media people saying, well, it's a limited war. It's just… if the Ukrainian soldiers surrender, it will be not much bloodshed. They're saying that it's just to demilitarize Ukraine, not to occupy it. Feeling that, yes, this might not be a good idea, but that it's not going to have many consequences. What do you say to your fellow Russians when they tell you that?

AM: [chuckle] The same things they were saying when Russia was invading Crimea or before when we had war in Georgia. Russia continues to invade more and more countries. And yeah, maybe after Ukraine there… there will be more wars like through Europe or something else. So we shouldn't wait for Putin to do the next step. We should stop him because what he's doing is crime. And if stopping someone doing a crime, we should stop him because it's terrible and people are dying, and people were dying for eight years in Ukraine. And… and it's not okay that Russia will invade Ukraine. Ukraine is a democratic country and it's unbearable to live in authoritarian country like Russia. And I do not want for my friends in Ukraine to live under Putin like we do because it's not okay to live with such a man in your country.

CO: What message would you give to Canadians tonight?

AM: That we all should stand with Ukraine, and we should fight against Russian regime. Because what they're doing, it's not just against Ukraine or Europe. It's against the world because they are going to collapse all our lives all over the world. It's not about Ukraine. It's about everything. Like when it was happening in 20th century with Germany. And when it started, like they invaded Austria, then something else and they… Poland and something else. And we should stop it because it's going to continue if we don't stop it.

CO: Arshak, I appreciate speaking with you tonight. Thank you.

AM: Thank you.

CO: Bye-bye.

AM: Bye.

CH: Arshak Makichyan is a Russian activist. We reached him earlier today in Moscow. And you can find more on that story on our webpage at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient]

Guest: Maria Avdeeva

CH: Russia's bombs didn't just catch Ukrainians by surprise. Estonia's Foreign Minister, Eva-Maria Liimets, was on a mission to the country yesterday. We reached Minister Liimets today as she waded through the rush at the border between Ukraine and Poland.

CO: Minister Liimets, I know you are on your way out of Ukraine. How many others are around you trying to do the same thing?

EVA-MARIA LIIMETS: The whole road from Kyiv to until the border is like 400 or 500 kilometres, and it was full of people who were trying to get to the border or to the western part of Ukraine. And also, what we just witnessed as I just… I just arrived to the border, that there are also very long queues here at the border with Poland.

CO: And people, how are they responding? What are you… what sense do you get of the state of mind of… of people around you there?

EML: The faces of people are, of course, very worried about the situation itself is very calm. People are very disciplined. They are waiting in the queues. They are waiting for when their turn gets.

CO: And you're waiting, too. You're trying to get back to Estonia, where you are needed at this point, aren't you?

EML: Yes, I am on my way back to Estonia. We have a plane waiting for me in Poland. And so, tonight, I'm going to be back in Estonia. And, of course, it is a very sad feeling to leave this country because we had planned to have a joint visit with the other Baltic foreign ministers to show our support to Ukraine. We planned to go to the conflict line today. But, unfortunately, after this military attack started, we had to change our plans and drive out of the country.

CO: Your prime minister in Estonia has described this invasion as the conclusion that you all feared. What does this do to the security of Estonia and your part of Europe?

EML: What we have seen is that we have seen that the power balance has changed in Europe. And the… and the security situation is… is different. It's a new one. And now, of course, we have to continue to strengthen the defence and the deterrence posture of NATO because the security situation has changed in Europe. But at the same time, we also… of course, I would like to say that in Estonia, we don't see any military threat to Estonia because Estonia is a member of NATO since 2004. Also, a member of the European Union.

CO: This is I understand Independence Day in Estonia. There must be a very many mixed emotions today in your country?

EML: Indeed, it is Independence Day in Estonia. Today, we celebrate the 104th year of our independence. And since 1991, we have really built a society based on democratic values, fundamental freedoms. And today, we really saw how fragile everything is in Europe, especially for the countries who have not managed to join the European Union or NATO, the countries which really were working with the democratic reforms, building up the societies based on the rule of law. And it's very vulnerable if you have such an aggressive neighbour. So I'm very happy that all the politicians, all the generations in Estonia have really fight for a free country based on democratic values. And today, we could celebrate it in a free country.

CO: Just now, we're hearing from our own Deputy Prime Minister Chrystia Freeland, who is herself Ukrainian, saying that this is… this is the time Vladimir Putin cements his place amongst European dictators. We heard our Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau, say we will respond forcibly. What do you hope to see as a response from countries like Canada?

EML: We very much hope that Canada joins the sanctions that have been discussed. We are very thankful to Canada also for Canada's participation in the EFP mission, which is the NATO enhanced foreign assistance mission in the Baltic states and the eastern flank of NATO. So we are very thankful for Canada for this contribution and then hope that our close cooperation with NATO continues.

CO: I can hear that there is much going on there at the border as you're trying to get across and out of the country. Minister Liimets, we will let you go. Thank you so much for joining us tonight.

EML: Thank you. Thank you. Bye-bye.

CH: Eva-Maria Liimets is the Foreign Minister of Estonia. We reached her as she was crossing the border from Ukraine into Poland.

[Music: Acoustic guitar]

Guest: Yulia Zmerzla

CH: Ukrainians in Canada have watched in horror since the Russian bombs began to fall late last night. That includes Deputy Prime Minister Chrystia Freeland, who spoke to journalists today.

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CHRYSTIA FREELAND: To my own Ukrainian-Canadian community, let me say this. Now is the time for us to be strong as we support our friends and family in Ukraine. Now is the time for us to remember. [Speaking Ukrainian] Canada understands what is at stake. We know that the people of Ukraine, in fighting for their lives, for their sovereignty, are fighting for us too. They are fighting for democracy. And we stand with them.

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CH: Yulia Zmerzla is the executive director of the Oseredok Ukrainian Cultural Education Centre in Winnipeg.

CO: Yulia, have you had much sleep? I would imagine you were up pretty early this morning?

YULIA ZMERZLA: Well, I can tell you the night was sleepless. As soon as I saw the news last night… well, nobody could sleep in my family here. And I've been in touch with my family and friends in Ukraine all the time.

CO: What do those words from Chrystia Freeland mean to you?

YZ: It means a lot. It means that we are united, here and everywhere in the world. And having such a great support from here, it's… it's… I'm very proud of it.

CO: Who is back home? What friends and family are you following in Ukraine?

YZ: I have family all over Ukraine and in Odessa, Kyiv and in western Ukraine. And, yeah, I am in touch with all of them. And I know from them that they woke up this morning at 4:30 am when they heard the bombs. And, of course, everyone was scared. But right now, the message I get from all of them that they are not panicking. They are going to fight, and they will not surrender. They will protect their land.

CO: Where are they going to spend the night?

YZ: Well, some of my friends, they tried to leave Kyiv this morning, but they were stuck in the traffic for seven hours. And others are staying home, as suggested by Ukrainian government. And they are planning to help whatever needs to be done.

CO: When you talk about people prepared to fight, but you have elderly people in your family. People have children. You can resist, but these are civilians we are talking about, right?

YZ: Exactly. And you know what? I think today, when I spoke to them with my parents, they gave me more support than I could give them. Because in here, this is so shocking what's going on today. But they… they've been living in this situation for eight years already. And they keep calm. And even when I ask them, you know, if they would want to move to Canada during these tragic times, you know, and unsafe times? And they said, no, we will stay, and we will fight. And this is the time to show that Ukraine is unanimous and we are strong.

CO: So you say that it's harder on you because it's… you… you can't do anything, I guess, eh? You're here watching from abroad, watching terrifying scenes that come close to the people you love?

YZ: Correct. Yeah. So, I asked my family, what… how can I help? And the only thing that they say, you know, so that we raise awareness here. We keep talking of what's going on. And what Ukraine needs right now is the strongest sanctions against Russia, and military aid.

CO: What's it like for you to be safe in Canada while they are under attack?

YZ: I… you know, I guess there is not enough words to express that. I… I do… I'm there with my heart. And again, I'm here, and all I can do is to… to do… to keep calling as well and be united with our Ukrainian community.

CO: When you talk about the resistance, people… and we've heard that all day from people saying they will fight, they will stay and fight. But they're up against the Russian military. I mean, that is… that is a formidable force to confront, right? So.

YZ: Yes. But again, Ukraine got help. And this is the difference between the Russians and Ukrainians. Ukrainians will not surrender. They will fight. And I… my friends in Kyiv, in the morning, when they heard there is a war, they went to a military camp in the morning. And all you can do is to show your passport, and you can get a gun. And they do it because who else then?

CO: We heard Chrystia Freeland talk about… that this brutal and unprovoked attack will be responded to. We heard the prime minister say that we, Canada, will respond forcibly. Are you convinced that's going to be translated into action?

YZ: I truly hope so. Because this is the only, you know, weapon against Russia that we can do, all the world. We all look forward to it. And again, we are watching news and all the updates, how Canadian government can help. And, of course, the rest of the world.

CO: You know, there are many Canadians who don't think that Canada should contribute to any war effort. That… to put troops, to put… to supply weapons, anything is only to escalate the situation. What do you say to them tonight?

YZ: Well, I guess I understand their feelings, but I'm not sure if they realize what's going on, that it's war. And this can touch anyone. And if not to stop Russia, now it… it can go here, too. So nobody is protected against them if not to stop them.

CO: I heard some people in different demonstrations across Canada today, talking, going there to make their thoughts known about Ukraine. And among them, some Russians who are appalled by this invasion. So do you think this is really Russia's war against Ukraine? Or do you think this is Mr. Putin's war?

YZ: Yeah, that's a Putin's war. That's… obviously. And in Russia, and even here in Canada, for people from Russian community, I heard them say, you know, we are ashamed of what Russia is doing to Ukraine. They are not supporting it. And again, I was watching all kind of news this night and today, and Ukrainian, and Russian, and Canadian. And in Russia, there is no unity against Ukraine. This is Putin.

CO: What do you fear most as the day ends in Ukraine, and during the night, what do you fear might happen tonight?

YZ: I believe there will be fights, more fight, and I don't see this is resolved by tomorrow. I think this… the next couple of weeks are crucial for Ukraine. And I think this is now time to act. As you mentioned that our Canadian government is showing their support, but there needs to be a stronger support, and hopefully this… this will happen sooner than later because the… this is going on right now. People are killed right now.

CO: Yulia, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

YZ: Thank you so much.

CH: Yulia Zmerzla is the executive director of the Oseredok Ukrainian Cultural Education Centre in Winnipeg.

[Music: World]

Guest: Jesse Ausubel

CH: When the gigantic ships and the oil rigs go silent, the ocean is still loud -- and full of life.

[sc]

[Sound: An underground soundscape that sounds like sci-fi]

[/sc]

CH: The sounds of a Minke whale, a Bocon toadfish, and a New Zealand paddle crab. And those are just a drop in the bucket when it comes to the vast range of sounds gurgling and bubbling away in the world's oceans. Well, a group of scientists wants to collect them all and put them in one place for the first time. It will be called the Global Library of Underwater Biological Sounds or "Glubs." Jesse Ausubel is a researcher at The Rockefeller University, and founder of the International Quiet Research Experiment -- which will be helping with the project. We reached him in New York.

CO: Jesse, we just heard the sound of a Minke whale, a Bocon toadfish, and a New Zealand paddle crab. Is that music to your ears?

JESSE AUSUBEL: Indeed, it is music, and we want to create a concerto, a symphony, a global library of underwater biological sounds. It will have fish and crabs and whales and all manner of marine species. |

CO: And why do you want to do that?

JA: First, it's discovery. It's fascinating and beautiful. Imagine having hydrophones, microphones under the water that you could listen to wherever you are. That were… that would tell you also what's making sounds near you. So there's the thrill of exploration and discovery. It's a way to know what's in the water around you. But, of course, sound in the oceans is very important for animals to survive, to find mates, to find prey, to flee from danger. The animals use sound in lots of ways, and humans have been adding a lot of sound since we invented marine motors 150 years ago or so. And so there's a lot of concern also about quieting the oceans, reducing human additions of sound so that animals can live their lives in a more normal way.

CO: You began this project… the first few months of the pandemic sort of inspired it, didn't it? Back in March 2020. Why… what… what was it about the pandemic that made this an idea that you wanted to do?

JA: COVID created what we call the COVID pause in the oceans, pause in the additions of human noise, sound to the oceans. A lot of people may have seen pictures of a clear atmosphere, reductions in air pollution during the initial shutdown of activity that COVID brought. For example, in the city of New Delhi in India, you could see the Himalayas again. Beautiful clear skies. COVID also quieted the oceans. Shipping was greatly reduced, naval exercises. There was also an oil price war, you may recall, during 2020, so extraction of oil and gas offshore, which is quite noisy, and movement of oil and tankers also was reduced. So from about the middle of March to the middle of May of 2020, marine life experienced the oceans as it may have been 50 or 100 years ago in terms of the acoustic environment.

CO: And just how would people use this library?

JA: Well, if you record an environment over time, let's say a coral reef or a harbour or a kelp forest, then you could tell whether the diversity, as well as the distribution and abundance of animals, is changing. So if we're interested in the effects of an oil spill or the recovery from an oil spill, or we're interested in the effects of climate change in the ocean, then recording the soundscapes will be a way to… to document, to observe the changes. And we hope, in many cases, recovery. Another could be alerts. We don't want to collide with marine mammals, for example, in a harbour or in a shipping lane. And it may be possible to use hydrophones, these underwater microphones to give us advance warning by as much as 15 or 30 minutes, let's say, that the animals are in the area. It might be possible, thereby, to slow down or turn left or right to reduce the possibility of a collision.

CO: Let's hear another sound. This is a fish in the Indo-Pacific. Here it is.

[sc]

[Sound: This sounds like a honk with an electric jolt to it]

[/sc]

CO: [chuckling] That's wonderful, but you don't know what it is, right?

JA: Yeah. Yes, what… we would need to go, a scuba diver might go and observe if it's a shallow fish, if it's in shallow water. If it's deeper, it might be that we would try to use some kind of camera or some kind of other device to observe the animal to associate it with… with that sound. There is still a lot of discovery in the ocean. There are about 250,000 known forms of life in the ocean with Latin binomial like homo sapiens for people. But there are hundreds of thousands more forms of marine life to be discovered in the deep sea in the deeper parts of reefs. Of course, hearing a new sound may lead us to a new species. But certainly, as we discover new species, we want to characterize them by their voice, so to say.

CO: We did a story some time ago about canals, I think, in the Netherlands, and they put cameras down below, and people could watch what was happening. And people would watch live TV for hours [chuckling] watching what was going there. And it gave the people a new appreciation of the life that was in those canals. Do you think that people being able to hear the symphony of an ocean life can alter our perceptions, maybe help us understand what needs to be protected?

JA: Very much so. Some of us experimented a few years ago with a citizen science project called Whale FM, in which you could effectively listen to radio or podcasts of different whales. And lots of people tuned in and listened. And as we get better and better at doing that, and as the artificial intelligence and other mechanisms make it possible to do the identifications, I think people will like it even more. So, imagine being in your… in your home, and you could say to your smart speaker, take me to the Great Barrier Reef. Or… or take me under an iceberg off Newfoundland. And you could listen for a minute or 10 minutes or an hour to what's there. And maybe from time to time, a voice, a good voice -- like your own, Carol -- might say, well, that's a Minke whale. Or that's a Piranha in the Amazon. So I think there would be… people are very interested in the world around them in that sense of nature, as with birds. And this is a new way of expanding people's appreciation of marine life.

CO: Jesse, it's lovely to talk to you on a day with so much dark news, so thank you for telling us this story.

JA: Thank you, Carol.

CH: Jesse Ausubel is a researcher at The Rockefeller University. He was in New York City. Now, Carol has interviewed a great many guests during her time at As It Happens. There was a number floating around…. uhhh… 25,000, I think it was? So Jesse Ausubel may be 25,001. And I seem to remember that she seems to remember every one of them. Which she has unequivocally proven over the past few weeks. But the number of times she's been interviewed on the program where she did those 25,001 interviews is vanishingly small. And here's one of those very few examples. It was the summer of 2015, and Carol was vacationing in Cape Breton, when she found herself in the thick of a whale rescue. So guest host Peter Armstrong called her up. In honour of Carol's last week on the show, our colleague Ben Shannon has created a beautiful animation of her account of those events. You can find that on our website at www.cbc.ca/aih. And you can hear that interview right now -- from our archives.

[sc]

PETER ARMSTRONG: Carol, what happened this morning that brought you out to these beached whales?

CO: Well, quite early in this morning, a neighbour called and said, you got to get down here and bring your buckets. We got 16 whales beached. so Linden and I just got in the car and drove over. And it was an incredible scene. It's a little… little bay just below us, and it's all very sharp rocks, big boulders. And just this pile-up of these…. some people call them Blackfish or Pilot whales.

PA: Yeah, they're all different sizes. And I'm assuming there's a sea of people down there trying to help already?

CO: By the time we got there, there were about two dozen. And there's a local guy, Bill Danberger. He was the one who saw them come in and watched them last night in a bit of a feeding frenzy. They'd come in chasing a school of mackerel. And then, during the night when the tide went out, very low tide during that close the full moon, they couldn't get out. They got trapped. So at dawn, he had this sight in front of him, of all these whales . And he and his wife, Pat, who was out in her pajamas when I got there, up to her waist in water, just trying to save them. And the surf, the tide was coming in fast, but they were just jamming up against these rocks.

PA: Um-hmm.

CO: So Bill just started giving us the instructions to keep them up. Just get them… get the dorsal fin up. Wrestle that up, and then slowly try to time it. There's a wave from the tide. Just try and work them into the water. So these massive creatures, and the blowhole, you know, just every now and then just a big burst of steam and hot air. So you knew they were living. And we just inched them as best we could off the rocks. And then, started to maneuver them out into the water. It was like wrestling with an elephant. And I don't know nothing about saving whales, so I just took the orders from Bill. [PA chuckle] And finally, we just got enough of them out there. Linden MacIntyre, my husband, he was working on one of the big ones. And I was holding a big one out in the water who was just thrashing and roiling around. And then, they got this the biggest one off the beach. And suddenly, there was this moment when some kind of communication between them. And he sent a message, and mine just suddenly calmed down and went upright, and they all started to move together.

PA: Oh my!

CO: And there were some babies there, too. And we got… and the babies started to move. And suddenly, we saw there was like 10 or 11 just started joining together, almost like just so close, shoulder to shoulder. We actually got trapped between them. And, you know, they're sending messages back to shore, I guess, according to Bill, and realizing there's five dead on the beach, and they're not sending a message back.

PA: Awe.

CO: So they left.

PA: And these enormous things thrashing around, and you're… you thrust yourself out into the water to try to help them. Did… did you feel safe as you were doing all this?

CO: You know, technically, I shouldn't have felt safe at all [PA laughs] because it's this huge thing.

PA: Yeah!

CO: And once you get it out of it, when you're sort of on the… the rocks, you know, it's my element, right? So I can stabilize myself. But how… we get into the water. And he is like, just the tails are moving like crazy. We got caught between some of them. But they were never hostile to us.

PA: Wow!

CO: It was like they knew that we were helping them. Just one whack of the tail, and I would have been, you know, underwater and gone. But they needed us. They knew they needed us.

PA: Isn't that something!

CO: But they were looking for each other, you know? it was just a kind of extraordinary thing. I don't want to anthropomorphise, [PA chuckles] but I had this feeling that, you know, we were all working together on this one.

PA: This isn't exactly the typical summer holiday. Have you… have you and Linden, at the very least, rewarded yourselves with a stiff drink after all this?

CO: I'm waiting till this phone call is over. [PA laughs] We've been waiting all day. Well, we've been sort of going back and forth. The irony is… is that for the past week, we have been out in the water, in a boat. And we always take people out looking for whales. And so, we went out, and we said, oh, is that a whale out there in the distance? And… and, you know, everyone gets excited. And then, I didn't think that the first time I'd actually see whales this summer, I'd be wrestling with them and in the water.

[/sc]

CH: From our archives, that was guest host Peter Armstrong interviewing regular host Carol Off in August 2015. To see that story brought to life as an animation, visit our website at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Instrumental]

CH: Trevor Kirczenow's Manitoba farm has a lot of snow. Mr. Kirczenow, his husband, and two young children live on a 14-acre hobby farm near Dugald, about 20 kilometres east of Winnipeg. They have the usual animals: turkeys, goats, chickens. But it's the horses that are giving him headaches. He explained why -- and what his farm looks like right now.

[sc]

TREVOR KIRCZENOW: Oh, it's ridiculous. And it's… it's sort of… it's not just the volume of snow that fell, but that really how it drifted. So, in some areas, I mean, we have some bush and some trees on our property. And in some areas, the snow… the snow is just about above the tree line. It looks like we have a mountain, [chuckling] where… where we know that our land is flat. And… and in some areas, our fences have disappeared. And that's… that's my big worry. Because as that snow hardens in the springtime, or as the animals kind of stomp it down in some places and really pack it down, they… they could climb right over those fences and… and leave the property. And we actually live very close to a highway. So my kind of… my… my biggest nightmare [chuckle] is that one of the animals could end up on the highway.

MARCY MARKUSA: Now I know you recently posted on a community Facebook page, just looking to hire someone to help you with your fencing challenges. What are you specifically hoping could be done to help?

TK: Yeah. Well, I… I don't have heavy machinery myself. We have a small snowblower that can deal with our driveway. [chuckling] So, what… what I was asking for would be someone [clears throat] to come in with machinery and... and to kind of dig a trench in the snow to… to create a fence line out of the snow. Like, I don't think we're going to be able to free those fences, like that's just impossible. But… but I think if we could dig in the snow in such a way that there's… there's a steep enough snow bank, we… we could maybe fence the horses in using snowbanks.

[/sc]

CH: That was Trevor Kirczenow speaking with Marcy Markusa, host of CBC Winnipeg's Information Radio.

[Music: Folk]

Guest: Charles Sule

CH: It's one way to become a homeowner in the overheated Canadian real-estate market. A group of investors have bought into an off-grid ecovillage in the Northern Ontario wilderness. They're hoping to transform a former clear-cut north of Kirkland Lake into a village they call "Swan Lake". But local municipalities in Temiskaming are calling on the provincial government to put a stop to the plan. They're worried about the remote residents living without proper sewage systems or septic tanks -- and taking their drinking water from local lakes. Not to mention what will be done with the garbage. Charles Sule is building a home in Swan Lake. We reached him in Toronto.

CO: Charles, can you describe for us the house that you're building?

CHARLES SULE: The house I've put together so far is… it's 10 by 24 feet. It's about 12 feet high at its highest point. And it'll have a loft over about a third in the back, the washroom a little bit of storage, composting, toilet, a shower, I hope, and the sink and a small kitchen at the other end.

CO: And what about drinking water and electricity?

CS: Electricity I'll get from solar. I'll collect some rainwater, I think, for washing dishes. But drinking water, so far, will have to come from a community well that is over by our comfort station that we built.

CO: What made you want to give up life in Toronto? [ both laughing] I guess I could get some of that.

CS: It kind of sells itself in a way.

CO: [chuckling] Exactly. Why am I asking this question? But what… but why did you want to go there to this northern Ontario…. really in the wilderness?

CS: Yeah. Well, we sort of… we… my wife and I found this business online in sort of our searches for different ways of living minimally. You know, we were looking at laneway housing in the city as well and stuff like that. But the reality is, of course, down here, it's… it's expensive. And we're not young and starting our careers anymore. And so, taking on a mortgage is a bit onerous. So, I mean, I grew up sort of with one foot in the north and… well, the central Ontario anyway, Muskoka. So, you know, I'm used to living kind of bushy lifestyle. And we just had enough of the hustle and bustle… and the… and the smoke and smog.

CO: But you're not just going there on your own. This is not you're going to isolate yourself.

CS: No, no.

CO: You're part of a group of people for Boreal Forest Medieval Villages, right?

CS: Well, okay. So that's the company that organizes these efforts. And they're not directly related in the long-term. They just get you to the point where they find the land in certain places and… and then, you know, the people who buy in as shareholders to another non-profit corporation that we formed on our own become the owners of the land at some point. And then, we take over. We have a board of directors and, you know, our own bylaws and that kind of thing. And so, yeah, they're just organizers.

CO: And you know that there are those who are not happy in that community that you're moving there, right? You're aware that the president of the Federation of Northern Ontario Municipalities says that this is… you're not just an individual there. This is a group, and you're going to be stretching services. You mentioned the volunteer fire department. You'll… you'll need them, right? You'll need garbage disposal. Some… some at least health care. How do you… how do you respond to what you're going to… I guess the pressures you're going to be putting on their municipality?

CS: Sure. Well, it's a valid concern. But I think for one thing, I think people have got a misunderstanding of how many people are moving up there. You know, it's a big plot of land, and perhaps people have the idea that we're going to cover the whole land with some big, you know, condo-filled subdivision or something like that. In fact, two-thirds of that land will be unoccupied. We've set a limit, and we've reached the limit. So the only way that anybody can move in now is if they buy somebody else out. And so, it's not as large a community as I think a lot of people are afraid of. And as I said, even out of the, you know, possibility of, you know, 165-plus or families, [coughs] we're only talking about 25 per cent of those people. And so I suspect that, I hope, that the fears are overblown. And once they understand the true scale of what we're planning, that perhaps it will allay some of the fears.

CO: And what about what if there's a fire or a medical emergency?

CS: Well, we've been advised right at the beginning that for 9-1-1 calls related to health or police, the local services have a means to reach us. And that we're permitted to use those services. I mean, we do pay property taxes, after all. So I mean, those are the minimal services one might expect for that. As far as fire, we've also been offered training from the volunteer fire chief, and he's going to work with us to try and install either a couple of ponds in our settlement, or we have a water trailer that we might repurpose for that and then get some training for ourselves.

CO: But how do you feel about moving into an area where there is… the fact remains that there is some hostility to your arrival?

CS: Well, the hostility is coming from the politicians as near as I can see. I've been on a Facebook group of local residents up in Sesekinika. And I know that some of them are concerned. I don't know if hostile is the word I would use for them. Concerned is probably more accurate. I know that going into Kirkland Lake and going to the building suppliers, they're… they've got a smile on their face to know that there's, you know, 100 some odd people building houses. And others… other businesses have been quite encouraging. So, I'm not sure how much the people in the cities nearby are concerned about it, so.

CO: But there's… you mentioned… you mentioned local, there's a local councillor who, this is a quote from him, in an organized municipality, it takes years to develop waterfront property. And here, they've just plunked --

CS: We haven't developed any waterfront property.

CO: You're not on the lake, okay.

CS: Nobody's… no, we have a very small section of shoreline. And we've reserved it for public access.

CO: When do you move there?

CS: I'm going to move up as soon as the weather is warm enough for me to be able to sleep over in a sleeping bag. I have to still insulate and get a wood stove and things like that. So that's why I'm not there now.

CO: And how do you feel about you're going to hit blackfly season very soon?

CS: [chuckle] Yeah. Well, you know, it's all part of the choice I made. [chuckling] I've got enough netted clothing; I hope I can live through it. Life's an adventure, isn't it?

CO: All right, thanks for speaking with us, Charles.

CS: Well, thank you, Carol.

CH: We reached Charles Sule in Toronto.

[Music: Ambient]

CH: Well tonight is Carol's second-to-last show with us. And as ever, your calls and emails thanking her for her sixteen years behind the As It Happens mic have been second-to-none. They keep coming and we will happily keep airing them -- partly because it gives me an excuse to invite one of our producers into the studio to help with the heavy lift of singing Carol's praises. Tonight, Katie Geleff joins me to lend a hand.

KATIE GELEFF: Hi, Chris.

CH: Hi, Katie.

CH: I understand you have some emails to share with us.

KG: I sure do. Starting with a note that we received from Katie Stewart in Deep River, Ontario. She writes: "Carol, I've been meaning to write to you for seven years now. In early 2015, I was a newly married, newly pregnant, newly graduated military nurse working a placement in Ottawa. My husband was in Petawawa and I would drive back and forth every day... and listen to the As It Happens midnight edition. I'm sure my baby could recognize your voice in the womb! I always meant to send you a little note to thank you for your company on those drives... and for being my late-night bestie seven winters ago."

CH: Thank you so much for writing in, Ms. Stewart. And thanks to those of you who continue to call us with your messages for Carol.

[sc]

[Talkback beep]

SEAN KOMAR: Hi, my name is Sean Komar, and I'm calling from Woodstock, Ontario. I'm a truck driver, and I just wanted to pass along my best wishes to Carol Off on her retirement from As It Happens after 16 years. Whether she was talking to a tough guest on a tough subject, she had that way of disarming them. I'm going to miss her and I wish her all the best. Thank you so much, Carol. Do take care.

[Talkback beep]

COURTNEY BOOKER: Hi, As It Happens, this is Courtney Booker calling. I am definitely someone who falls into the category of listeners who have grown up listening to this program. I really think it's a benefit to all of Canada. I also wanted to say that [chuckle] after I heard your news that you'll be leaving, I did feel a little bit choked because for a long time, I thought that if I was ever to be interviewed by Carol Off on As It Happens, that's when I'd know I'd really made it in this world. Oh well!

[/sc]

CH: Thanks Sean. And sorry, Courtney!

KG: Chris, we also got calls from some people who were interviewed by Carol, including one woman who spoke with As It Happens at a particularly stressful time in her life -- and a listener who (like so many) remembered Carol's interview with Barbara Winters, the woman who helped administer first aid to a dying soldier in Ottawa in 2014.

[sc]

[Talkback beep]

FARRAH MAWANI: Hi, Carol. It's Farah Mawani calling from Toronto. You first interviewed me almost exactly 11 years ago about our fight to free my friends held in Iran. And then again, just after they were freed. The way that you interviewed me when I was going through one of the most traumatic experiences of my life will stay with me forever. I really felt like I was having coffee with you in their living room. I could trust you at a time when it was difficult to trust anyone. Thank you immensely for that. And best wishes on your journey from here.

[Talkback beep]

MATTHEW FAWCETT: My name is Matthew Fawcett, and calling from Toronto. [clears throat] I've been a big fan of Carol Off, and As It Happens over the years. You're a wonderful host. And when I was going… when I was travelling back from New York on my first road trip by myself, I came back to the border, and your interview with Barbra Winters, [coughs] it still brings tears to my eyes. And I was really tired by the end of the trip. And just before I got to the border, it just was meant to be. [crying] I picked up that story and it helped me get home.

[/sc]

CH: [sigh] Some emotional tributes to Carol from listeners Farah and Matthew. [clears throat] And Katie, I know you've got one more email to share with us before you go.

KG: This is from Stephanie Harding in Toronto, who writes: "Carol, I grew up in a household that had CBC on every single day of my life. In my mid-twenties, I very quickly moved to Montreal for a job opportunity. It was my first time living all alone. It was dark and freezing. And I didn't have a friend in the city. In the closet of my rental apartment, I found an old radio, I plugged it in, rotated the dial hoping for a station in English… and there you were. Hearing the sound of your beautiful voice wafting through the air was like getting a big long warm hug from my parents. I cried and smiled for the first time in days -- and I have listened every single evening since."

CH: Thank you so much to Stephanie Harding for that email. And thanks Katie for sharing those messages with us.

KG: Thank you, it was a pleasure.