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The AIH Transcript For February 22, 2022

[hosts]Carol Off, Chris Howden[/hosts]

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden, this is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

CO: On the brink. Now that Russian soldiers have entered Ukraine, we'll ask the country's former deputy minister of defence what she thinks is coming next -- and whether Ukraine is ready.

CH: The trucks and the truculence. Things have been a lot simpler in Ottawa since the convoy protest ended -- but two contentious bail hearings today show things are getting more complicated for the people who planned the protest.

CO: A giant of medicine. Dr. Paul Farmer dedicated his life to taking health care directly to the people who needed it, all over the world. He called Dr. Anthony Fauci a mentor -- but Dr. Fauci tells us the opposite was true.

CH: Sounding Off. We've really appreciated all your emails and voice messages, since Carol announced that she's leaving As It Happens -- and tonight, we'll hear some of your tributes.

CO: Those Off puns, geez! Torn from the headlines. In 1967, Jimi Hendrix ripped a page of his lyrics in half and autographed both halves for two young women. And now, 55 years later, they have reunited those halves for a whole lot of money.

CH: And… he's tops in tops, in our book. An Edmonton man takes the exertion required to run a half marathon to excruciatingly sweaty and uncomfortable new heights by running one while wearing 90 shirts.

CH: As It Happens, the Tuesday edition radio that knows that was a major test --- and he passed with flying collars.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Ukraine Security, Paul Farmer Obit, Listener Response: Carol Farewell

Ukraine Security

Guest: Alina Frolova

CH: Vladimir Putin's unilateral rethink of Ukraine's borders has its allies scrambling to respond. Yesterday, the Russian president announced that he would recognize two Russian-backed territories as independent states, effectively carving them out of Ukraine. Then he ordered Russian troops to move in. The White House is calling that an invasion. And NATO countries are responding with economic sanctions and talk about international law. But Alina Frolova is making calculations about weapons and boots on the ground. Ms. Frolova is the former deputy minister at Ukraine's ministry of defence. We reached her in Kyiv.

CO: Ms. Frolova, what do you think is the likelihood of a full-scale Russian invasion of Ukraine?

ALINA FROLOVA: Well, that's actually very likely and very probable. The Russian troops will move into this territories of occupied… these occupied territories like today or tomorrow. It depends. But whether they will stop on the front line or they will go farther, that's the issue for now. Yes. And what they will do? Will they put on pause and, I don't know, reconsider what was the reaction of the world will be? Or will they from the very beginning go beyond this line? So we will see. But obviously, they prepare some kind of this freaking legitimacy for their actions.

CO: But it's curious because weeks ago, you and many of your colleagues were insisting that an all-out bid to take over Ukraine, this invasion, was probably not in the cards. What do you think has changed?

AF: Well, they still don't have enough… they lent forces for a large-scale operation. I mean, they cannot occupy all the Ukraine and keep it. But what they do now, they choose their main focus. And actually, if you will have a look at our prognosis, we always consider that the Donbas region exactly is the weakest point where they can target their efforts. So what they do, now they targeted efforts here. They acknowledge these republics, and so they think that they have legitimate right to step in. But actually, the next step will be considered depending on the reaction of the all the world which we will have. If there would be like strong sanctions and a strong reaction, possibly they will stop there. If there would be no strong reaction, they obviously will go farther. How far they will go, it depends. I mean, that's… we still do not consider that full-scale operation is possible because of the number of forces they have. But at the same time, they can massively use the aviation and missile attack, which doesn't mean they occupy Ukraine. But the harm they will do. It will, just, like, restrict our economy and the very, very strong --

CO: Just… do you think that's possible? Are you anticipating some sort of air attack?

AF: Um, it depends. Obviously, the Russians they’re not those people who will be stopped by any victims or size of their stations which they can cause. We saw it in Syria and other countries. But for now on, we don't have… within this day. We don't have any crucial change in positioning of their weapons or troops. They obviously were waiting for votes in their Duma or parliament, how you call it? To legitimize from their point of view this occupation of these regions. But we will see what… what will be moves next, and how they will use, and everything is very flexible.

CO: Do you worry that that what the strategy here is, is to take Ukraine bite by bite? That never doing anything so dramatic that the world responds dramatically, so that you take a bit. You take Crimea, you take these two regions, and it becomes an incremental absorption of Ukraine into the Russian Federation?

AF: Yeah, we have the risk of it. And I hope... and actually, the Medvedev yesterday, he said, what you actually said now that, okay, we had Georgia before. Yes, we had some sanctions. But in half a year, they started to release it because no one wanted to have a section. And so what? We overcome it. So we will overcome this… this time. So Russia sees this as a weakness. And they obviously referred to this weakness. I think that the very right position would be to set also about the intention that sanctions will never be released before the situation will go to the status quo as it was before 2015. And also, another issue which could be done and we consider it here is the also political option which difficult to deliver but possible. This is some kind of peacekeeping operation from U.N., which can eliminate the risk of the mass provocations from the Russian Federation on the front line, when they will come closer to the front line.

CO: How likely is that given that Russia sits on the Security Council?

AF: Yes, Russia sits in the Security Council. But at the same time, there is… this discussion is already there. I mean, in U.N. So, how right is to give the floor and to give the voice to the nation which actually plays an aggressive role in the conflict? So that could be a discussion, possibly with some solutions found. But we believe that's what Russia can also do is when they come to front line. They will make some kind of provocation and say that Ukrainian army killed Russian soldiers. And… which will mean like a declaration of war and from Russian freaking point of view that would be a legitimacy for the next steps. Also, so to voice and to decrease some kind of risks for future, we see that some kind of peacekeeping operation can be considered. And obviously, Ukraine will need massive assistance with economic support and investments.

CO: All right. We will leave it there. And we will, of course, be watching this very closely. Ms. Frolova, I appreciate speaking with you tonight.

AF: Thank you so much.

CH: Alina Frolova is Ukraine's former deputy minister of defence. We reached her in Kyiv.

[Music: Sombre guitar]

Paul Farmer Obit

Guest:Dr. Anthony Fauci

CH: So many people are alive today because of him. That's what the director of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control said about Paul Farmer, after his death yesterday at 62. We'll hear from Dr. Anthony Fauci in a moment. But today, tributes are coming from beyond the medical community -- from musicians, actors, writers and world leaders. Dr. Paul Farmer was an anthropologist, a Harvard Medical School professor, and the co-founder of the nonprofit Partners in Health. He dedicated his career to providing health care to the poorest people in the world. In May 2020, early on in the COVID-19 pandemic, Dr. Farmer spoke with Nahlah Ayed, host of Ideas. She asked him if he was scared:

SOUNDCLIP

DR. PAUL FARMER: Well, yeah, it scares me. I mean, it's… It's… it's… yes, I'm frightened because I know a lot about places where, you know, I have seen lives snuffed out for lack of an oxygen canister. And I've never seen that in the United States. I've never seen that at Harvard, but I've seen in Haiti, and I've seen it, Rwanda, I've seen it Malawi, Lesotho, Sierra Leone, Liberia. You know, I haven't seen in Russia, but I've seen it in those other places. And so, I'm scared for our patients, and our colleagues, and their family members. But I'm also optimistic. Like I said, I have never seen this much intentional discussion of what our safety net should look like. And I've been waiting for that for my whole adult life, you know? After going to medical school and not even being obliged to learn anything about Medicare and Medicaid, health insurance during medical school and learning about it afterwards as a young physician and a medical professor, you want these discussions to take place. You know, what… what do we owe our fellow human beings? What about the… those who suffer at a distance who we don't know in person? What about those who aren't related to us at all? You know, these are more vibrant discussions than I have heard.

CH: That was Dr. Paul Farmer speaking with the CBC in 2020. Dr. Anthony Fauci is President Joe Biden's top medical adviser. We reached him in Bethesda, Maryland.

CO: Dr. Fauci, first of all, I'm so sorry for your loss.

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI: Well, thank you very much. I appreciate you saying that.

CO: What goes through your mind when you hear your friend, Paul Farmer, speak there?

DAF: Well, that's classic Paul. I mean, Paul devoted his entire professional career, starting from even before he went to medical school, for equity in the health care for people who don't have -- because of where they live in the lower and lower-middle-income countries -- the opportunity to have available to them the type of health-related things that we have in the United States and we have in Canada. And as he said, you can… all of the other countries, you have it. He was totally passionate about equity, not only talking about it but doing it. You know, he has spent months at a time literally in the trenches of the rural areas of very poor countries. Haiti, a classic example. Rwanda, another example. He's really, you know, he was a very, very close friend of mine. He's a once-in-a-lifetime person. He really is. I don't want to make it seem that I'm being hyperbolic about it. But anybody who knows what Paul did and who he was, you have to come to that conclusion.

CO: What did… what did Paul Farmer mean to you personally?

DAF: Well, you know, we have an interesting relationship. I first met him when he was a medical school student at Harvard. I gave a lecture. This was, you know, 40 years ago, whatever it was. He told me, he said he was inspired by my lecture and my passion for medicine and public health. And he referred to me as his mentor when, as a matter of fact, he became a mentor to me. Not only were we personal friends. I mean, he knows my family, my daughters, my… my wife, but he is just, you know, one of those kind of persons that inspires you. So, you know, when people have asked me in the past who my hero is? You know, almost invariably, when I think of modern people who are, you know, unfortunately, who are alive at the time, it would… it would have to be Paul Farmer. So, it was… it was, you know, wonderful to have him as a friend. And whenever I had questions about, you know, judgements about things that have to do with global health, first person I would talk about and call and discuss was Paul. And he would do the same with me. I mean, when the Ebola outbreak took place in western Africa, it was… you know, Paul and I were constantly discussing about what the right approach would be? So it is interesting. I was… my wife knows him well, too. And we were talking last night in great grief about… about Paul. And one of the things that she reminded me of is that as famous and iconic as he had become over the years, he would treat the person who cleans the floors and dusts the desks and does the gardening outside exactly the same as he treats me. I mean, he was just warm and accessible to everybody. When you personally know him, you understand why virtually everybody who comes in contact with him, particularly his patients, absolutely love him.

CO: Hmm.

DAF: And it's entirely understandable when you know what Paul Farmer was and who he was.

CO: We just heard a bit of him talking about his… how worried he was about COVID-19, the pandemic, and that was from May of 2020. And so, he's looking at what's not… what's happening in the United States, he's looking at what's happening in the rest of the world.

DAF: Right.

CO: Where there's so little health care. What advice did he have for you dealing with the pandemic in the United States?

DAF: I mean, he was very much concerned about people who don't have access to care. So, obviously, in the United States, we have a disparity. I mean, our Brown and Black people have a higher incidence of infection and a higher incidence of hospitalization and death. And that has to do with the social determinants of health that put them in a position of not having as much access to care, of having diseases that are related to life-long deprivation of things like good diet or enough economic status to be able to get your health care taken care of. That was in the United States. But what he was really referring to was that he was worried about, and it was classic Paul when you played that clip, is that he was seeing an outbreak that he knew was going to desperately and more severely affect the people in countries that he knew so well from his work with HIV and other diseases.

CO: He did so many large-scale things that went through Partners in Health. He… creating networks and systems, training people in large numbers, just raising huge amounts of money or attracting it in order to help people with tuberculosis, HIV, Ebola. At the same time, the story is that I'm reading are of a man who went door to door to see if people were taking their medication, who people stopped him in the street to tell him what they meant to him. Were you there? Did you ever see how just ordinary people responded to him?

DAF: Yes! Of course. I've been in Africa with them. I know exactly how they respond to him. And that's what I was saying a little bit ago. That's classic Paul Farmer. He not only talks about it, he not only is passionate in his, you know, advocation for it. But he does it. He goes to Haiti, and he builds a hospital, a first-class hospital that he trains Haitians, Haitian nurses, Haitian health care providers, Haitian doctors to be able to give first-class health care in a very rural place in Haiti. He goes to Rwanda and creates an institute for global health equity in a rural area of Rwanda. That is so classical Paul Farmer, bringing quality health care, quality intellectual discussion as you would have in an institute to areas of the world where you would have never thought anybody could do that. And people would tell him, oh, it's impossible, you can't do that. And Paul's answer was always, watch, I'm going to show you how we can do it. And he did it.

CO: Before I let you go, if you… if you could tell us how you will remember Paul Farmer? Is there a specific story? A moment that you cherish?

DAF: You know, there are so many, but you know, just sitting around the house having a glass of wine, it's mostly, you know, Paul at his relaxed moment. And there were plenty of those. And I'll always remember that smile and that passion. He was very, very devoted to the poor and those who suffer from lack of equity. And we would always talk about that. And I would always get inspiration from him. I mean, it's kind of like you get your batteries recharged when you sit down with a glass of wine or beer with Paul and talk about that.

CO: Dr. Fauci, I really appreciate speaking with you about Dr. Farmer. Thank you.

DAF: My pleasure. Thank you for having me.

CH: Dr. Anthony Fauci is the director of the US National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases. He's in Bethesda, Maryland.

[Music: Uke!!!]

Listener Response: Carol Farewell

CH: It's true. I can't stand it. But it is. This is Carol's last week as my As It Happens co-host. And while I may not be entirely prepared to accept that. And I’m not. I have to admit, your calls have been helping. We're going to hear more of them throughout the week, but we wanted to share a few now. Because let me just reiterate that for all of us here, they are a balm.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: Talkback beep]

PIERRE: Hello, it's Pierre from Victoria. I've been listening to AIH since 2009, when… when I moved from France as an immigrant and a student journalist. Listening to Carol is like attending a masterclass on this country, on its people, on the struggle they face and the injustice we shouldn't look away from. It was also a masterclass on how to interview people who face terrible tragedy, showing compassion. And she also taught us that the serious stories are important. So for all of this, mérci, Carol.

[Sound: Talkback beep]

MICHELLE ASHBY: Hi, As It Happens, Michelle Ashby here. I wanted to tell you about my embarrassing encounter with Carol. I've been a fan of As It Happens for over 30 years now. So I was thrilled in 2015 to learn that her husband, Linden MacIntyre, would be one of the featured authors at Read by the Sea in nearby River John, Nova Scotia. I enjoyed his books and was definitely a fan of his writing. But I was secretly hoping to catch at least a glimpse of his wife, Carol Off. On the day of the event, I was thrilled that my friends and I were in excellent seats, not too far from the guests of honour. And there was Linden with Carol. Now, I had to decide to approach or not. I was still tossing these questions around during a break, when I headed to the ladies’, opened the door to one of the stalls and barged in on, who else, Carol Off. That settled it. I wasn't going to ask for a signature or tell her how much I enjoyed her interview techniques. Not after that.

[Sound: Talkback beep]

JAMAL: Hi, this is Jamal calling from Toronto. I just want to say I first stumbled upon As It Happens when I was channel surfing about two years ago. But what we can see coming back every night at 6:30 was Carl's reassuring voice, her empathy, her fearlessness and her ability to bring out the best in the people that she interviewed. For some of the more intense interviews, I would just completely stop what I was doing to see how they played out, while the funny and quirky ones really brought me joy when I needed it. So I really want to thank you, Carol. Because of you, I've learned so much about the world. And you really sparked a new curiosity in me about nearly everything that I'll keep forever.

CH: Thank you so much for your calls, Pierre, Heather, Michelle and Jamal. And a big thank you to As It Happens producer Sarah Jackson, who's here to help me get through all these emails we've received. Hi, Sarah.

SARAH JACKSON: Hey, Chris. Many is right! Michelle in Vancouver wrote to say this: "Carol, do you know how many dishes we have done together? I scrubbed pans angrily as you talked to unprepared and ill-informed politicians. I remember dropping and breaking a glass when you spoke to the woman who was with Corporal Nathan Cirillo the day he died in Ottawa. I cried when you cried and I laughed as you managed to navigate all kinds of talk of body parts, poop, and love-making. We did so many dishes together Carol. And my water was always cold and no longer sudsy by the end."

CH: Thanks for that, Michelle. Waldo Berg in Stony Rapids, Saskatchewan has a suggestion. He writes: "If I could invent an award just for you, Carol, I would call it the Master of Humanity Award. You somehow have that special gift of knowing exactly how to treat each guest that you interview. You have the most incredible way of expressing compassion that causes all of us to feel so deeply for the person at the other end of the line. You have such a wonderful sense of humour and giddiness that is so contagious it causes me to burst out laughing even when it's only me and the radio alone in a room. You have a fierce side that confronts injustice with such skill it would cause anyone to feel intimidated enough to rethink their position. That's why you deserve the Master of Humanity Award -- you bring to each situation exactly what is needed."

SJ: Thanks Waldo for your email. And we've also received your snail mail! Including this letter from Priscilla Ewbank on B.C.'s Saturna Island. She writes, in part: "Dear Carol, I cringed when I heard on the six o'clock news that As It Happens had a 'Special Announcement' for its listeners. Thank you for giving us the time and opportunity to thank you and make our peace with change. You have a manner of speaking and engaging with all sorts of people in all sorts of situations. From first person accounts of suffering that crush the heart and bring a stillness -- to the bizarre and wacky... your voice is so warm that I cannot help but be connected proudly as a Canadian to our larger world, even though I never look these people in the eye. You have obviously done your homework, not to correct or override the guest, but as a compliment that they are worth interviewing -- and to give us a broader picture. And I love that you thank the person who you have just interviewed for us all. The Covid pandemic has demanded we all give our utmost to keep our equilibrium. You help me be the best kind of person I want to be in these times. Striving to do my best professionally and personally, like you -- humorous and grounded, listening, and compassionate -- with a faith that this will all work out ... even as I sometimes faltered. We will leave it there, Ms. Off. And we will be following this story closely!"

CH: Thank you Priscilla. Thank you Sarah.

SJ: You're welcome, Chris.

CH: And thank you to all of the listeners who've been in touch with us over the past few weeks. Tune into the show this Friday for Carol's Big Last Show. Lots of special guests, and more of your favourite interviews. Plus, a few surprises.

[Music: Glassy guitar]

Hendrix Lyrics Autograph

CH: For 55 years, two women shared a precious commodity: a Jimi Hendrix song. Well, lyrics to a Jimi Hendrix song. Well, half the lyrics to a Jimi Hendrix song each.

[Music: “51st Anniversary” by The Jimi Hendrix Experience, but pieced together awkwardly]

CH: This is “51st Anniversary”by the Jimi Hendrix Experience. Well, half of it, if you split the words down the middle. In 1967, two young women went to see Hendrix play at the Bath Pavilion in England. They wanted to get an autograph. But they didn't have anything autographable. So Hendrix ripped a page out of his notebook, and then ripped that page in half. And he -- and band members, Noel Redding and Mitch Mitchell -- signed each half. When they examined them later, the young women realized the flipside contained the lyrics to a song called “51st Anniversary”. Well, half of them. That song -- with both halves of the words -- would later be the B-side to "Purple Haze". Last year, one of the women had her half-page appraised. And like the full set of lyrics, the appraiser was torn: it was cool, but it would be cooler if she had the other half too. So she found the friend that she'd largely lost touch with. And they agreed to meet each other halfway -- and sell the whole notepaper for a five-digit sum. Which, given the rarity of handwritten Hendrix lyrics, is not half bad.

[Music: Acoustic guitar]

Part 2: Convoy Legal Fallout, T-Shirt Marathon

Convoy Legal Fallout

Guest: Paul Champ

CH: Canada's legal system is proving to be an inconvenience for some of the people behind the protests that took over downtown Ottawa. On the weekend, Tamara Lich and Pat King were arrested. Today, they were in court, looking to get out on bail. And neither had an easy time. Paul Champ watched with more than just idle interest. Mr. Champ is the lawyer for Ottawa residents who are suing the convoy's organizers and participants for the damage done. We reached Paul Champ in Ottawa.

CO: Mr. Champ, by Ottawa bail hearing standards, how would you describe what you've seen over the recent days from Tamara Lich and Pat King?

PAUL CHAMp: Well, I'm not a criminal lawyer, but it definitely seems pretty extraordinary, some of the evidence that the court has been hearing. There are sureties, and in the case of Ms. Lich's case, she was testifying as well. And we learned a bit more about, you know, I guess, what's been going on behind the scenes with these Freedom Convoy protests.

CO: Can you give us some examples?

PC: Well, the… the bail hearing on Saturday involving Ms. Lich involved her husband testifying because he is proposing to be a surety. And during his testimony, we learned that he came to Ottawa mid-protest on a private jet. He couldn't give us the name of who owned the private jet. Only that the gentleman's name was Joseph, and he was a good Christian. So, it just gives us a sense of the kinds of resources people who, you know, really have been providing material support to this convoy protest in Ottawa.

CO: Many say surety. These are the people, if someone gets bail, it has to be that they are sort of in the custody almost of somebody who is… who is going to guarantee that they follow the rules and the conditions of their bail, right?

PC: That's precisely it, yes. So, Ms. Lich had put forward her husband. And this morning, the court issued a ruling denying her bail. So she will remain is custody unless she comes up with a better release plan or until trial.

CO: And what was wrong with… despite… I mean, it sounds quite bizarre, but why would that make him, her husband, be not a good surety person?

PC: Well, there were concerns that he had been here in Ottawa throughout most of the protests. And he did not seem to have much concerns about the illegal behaviour that had been going on. And, in fact, he didn't necessarily see anything wrong with what was happening in Ottawa. He didn't have much in the way of resources. And they also didn't really have much of a plan, or any plan really, of how they were going to get out of Ottawa. Ms. Litch can't fly in a plane, she said, because she doesn't have a vaccine passport. And they suggested they were going to drive back to Alberta, but they don't have a vehicle here. So there's a lot of flaws with the case, and I understand why the JP or the judge, in the end, didn't grant bail.

CO: What have you heard in the way of… of evidence in the case of Pat King?

PC: Yeah, I watched some of that today, and I've been following some of the other people who've been following the hearing all day. And, you know, the individual that he put forward as his surety is someone who has also been participating in the convoy protests. And, in fact, it seems that she was in the background of some of the videos that he was putting out, where he was laughing at Ottawa residents who were staying up all night because of their horns. And, you know, the surety was also saying things like she didn't think there was anything necessarily wrong with what was happening to the people of Ottawa. So we'll see what happens with that. That proceeding. It's not quite determined yet, but maybe… maybe we'll know soon.

CO: These are the people that these two and then there are a few others who are the sort of the face of these events of the past three weeks. But there are another… more than 100 other people have been charged. What's to become of them?

PC: Well, we'll see. Most of them, most, if not all, have already been released. My understanding is those that have been released just because they wouldn't agree to conditions. It appears that the Crown is going to be focussing on the organizers for the more serious charges. Although we have heard from the chief of police or the acting chief of police in Ottawa that they do plan to track down others who participated in the protest, maybe the truck drivers with other charges in due course. So, you know, I think, you know, the criminal proceedings in Ottawa about what we experienced over the last three weeks is going to go on for quite some time.

CO: But you put out a message to those people, the other ones who have been charged. You've urged them to get independent legal advice. What is the message you're trying to send there? What's that about?

PC: Well, during the course of the protests, Carol, we tried several different ways to try to communicate to these individual truckers that they were facing real serious financial consequences by staying here and blowing their air horns and so forth. And we were hopeful that we could persuade some of them to leave. And in fact, some of them did leave, Carol. Some of them, we did get to sign releases with them, and they left. And we just think these people aren't getting very good legal advice. They think they're looking up to these leaders. They're buying into all this crazy stuff that they're reading online. They have totally bizarre understandings of how our legal system works and our political system works. And I just… I feel very badly for some of them because I think they're being misled by… misled and hoodwinked by, you know, grifters and con artists and these pseudo-celebrities.

PC: But at the same time, you're suing them, right?

PC: Well, we are suing them, absolutely. Because I think that if these individual truckers speak to a lawyer who's going to give them proper advice, they will try to get them out of it. And they will reach out to us. And we're very reasonable right now. If the individual truckers who are involved in this get legal advice in their hometowns about, yeah, you know what? Maybe that was stupid what I was doing. If those lawyers reach out to us right now, we're willing to… to resolve things very quickly with… with truckers who get in touch. But, you know, if we have to find them, it'll… it'll be a bit harder for them, I think.

CO: So the people who have been charged, including these 103, and also the people who are the supposed leaders of this, all of those are… would-be defendants in your class-action at this point?

PC: Not all of them, Carol. The people that we are targeting in the lawsuit are the organizers and planners who were not only involved in organizing the entire protest but who are instrumental in assisting the semi-truck drivers and remaining in our streets. Those who are coordinating the fuel lines and the food to allow them to remain idling for 24 hours a day on the streets and blowing their horns. And then, the actual semi-truck drivers themselves. So, you know, all the other, you know, a few thousand people who were here, we're not suing those people. But the ones who are using the trucks. It was the trucks that were really weaponized and the people of downtown Ottawa that we’re suing. And then finally, donors after February the 4th. Anyone who donated after that time to support… to support the truckers and allow them to stay in Ottawa and continue that illegal behaviour, we're also going to sue them.

CO: And is there a price? A dollar amount, right, on this class-action at this point?

PC: Yeah, yeah. Right now, it's at $306 million. We estimate that the total damage is around $15 million a day. So we'll do the final maths, and we're getting, you know, information now from the businesses. But it will. It'll be in that range.

CO: All right. We will be watching. Mr. Champ, thank you.

PC: Thank you very much, Carol.

CH: Paul Champ is the lawyer representing Ottawa residents and business in a civil suit against the people responsible for the protests that took over Ottawa for more than three weeks.

[Music: Glassy guitar]

T-Shirt Marathon

Guest: David Eliuk

CH: Running a half-marathon is exhausting under the best of circumstances. And running one in the winter on slippery roads in sub-zero temperatures is very close to the worst of circumstances. But for David Eliuk, it wasn't challenging enough. When he ran Edmtonon's Hypothermic half-marathon on Sunday, he decided to add a few extra layers of difficulty -- 90 layers. Mr. Eliuk ran that race while wearing… 90 shirts, which makes him the unofficial world record holder for the most shirts worn during a half-marathon race. We reached David Eliuk in Edmonton.

CO: David, how do you even run two blocks wearing 90 T-shirts, let alone a half-marathon?

DAVID ELIUK: With a lot of practice. It's… yeah, I was training for… I've been training for it for the last four or five months. And you just… just like training for anything else, you practice and practice and practice. And every time you go out, it gets a little easier.

CO: And how do you practice? I mean, do you start off with 90 shirts, or do you keep adding on? So how do you do that?

DE: Kind of, yeah. I was…. so I started about four or five months ago. And every two weeks, I would add 10 or 12 layers to what I was wearing. And then, it eventually would build up so that I could get used to the weight and the restriction of movement with having so many… so many layers on my body.

CO: And how much does it actually weigh to have that many T-shirts on your body?

DE: At the start of the race, we weighed it, and it was about 46 pounds.

CO: [chuckling] And then, and you're sweating into that, I would imagine?

DE: Um-hmm.

CO: So does it get heavier?

DE: It does get heavier, yeah, which isn't really helpful. Unfortunately, it was a very cold day on Sunday, and my scale did not want to cooperate. So I don't, unfortunately, have a finished weight. But I know in previous training sessions it was about… it was about an extra four or five pounds of… of sweat… sweat, weight.

CO: Yikes! So, okay. So the previous record stood at 76 shirts. So did you at some point when you got close to that figure, okay, I can beat this? Why did you go… keep going to 90?

DE: I mean, I didn't want to just beat it by one and have somebody… somebody else come and beat the record. I wanted to give the next person that tries for the record a challenge. The previous record's been standing for about three years now. And the gentleman that has the current record, I guess he beat it about a year after the last record. So in 2018, the record was about 60. And in 2019, it went to 76. So it's been at 76 for a while. So, hopefully, the 90 will last for a few years, and it'll just… it'll be something that I can hold on to.

CO: [chuckle] And why did you want to break this record?

DE: I just… I was looking around for… for something fun and unique to… to try and challenge myself with and came across the Guinness website. And they've got so many different world records, obviously. But specifically for running, they have a lot. The majority of them are speed-based in various different costumes, but this one was a little bit different. They didn't have much of a time element, and it was more about getting through with this different type of challenge for yourself. And it just… there was… there was a picture of the gentleman with the current record. And he just looked really goofy and really funny, and I thought, that's kind of what I'm looking for. And if… if it's something that I can do that will make, you know, people laugh at me or make jokes or make them smile or make them happy, then you know, it's… that's all I can ask for.

CO: I just want to ask the… some of… how you get these shirts on? I mean, do they… they're all regular T-shirts, right?

DE: Yes. Yeah, they're all commercially available, purchased through…. well, I actually… I had them donated from a multi-sports… from Multi-Sport Canada. It's an athletic company… or not an athletic company, but a race management group that… that I've been familiar with for… for quite a few years. And they donated some of their old shirts that they had available.

CO: Right, so --

DE: Which was good because most of them were double extra-large or triple extra-large or extra-large. And… because as… as you add more layers, they… the shirts need to go up in size so that they can even fit over top of my body.

CO: [chuckle] That was… that was my next question is that you'd start up with small shirts you keep building. But then you get that big wad under your armpits, right?

DE: Yes. Yeah, very difficult. And then, that actually led to some problems during… during the race itself. There was a bit of restriction of blood flow to my… to my left arm. I was losing a little bit of motor function in my left hand. And my crew that was with me was able to make some adjustments along the way and fix that problem so that we could run the second half of the race in a more comfortable… comfortable manner without having to worry about and negative side effects.

CO: And so, as you're… and the doing the half-marathon, was there a point where you thought, okay, this isn't worth it?

DE: No, no. I had been… I'd been training for it for… for a few months. I knew the distance wasn't going to be a problem. No, there was… there was never a time where I was like, It's not worth it.

CO: And have you heard from Guinness about your certificate?

DE: Well, they… obviously, they have to do their due diligence with evidence and… and that kind of thing. So, I'm… I'm actually still in the process of collecting all the evidence that I need so that I can submit to them for their approval process. So I don't expect that answer to be quick. They do have a lot of people attempting records all the time. So I think I saw somewhere on their website that they say to expect about eight weeks after submission for their… for their evidence people to go through everything.

CO: And meanwhile, you're trying to inspire your kids to take on world… world records. What… what are you suggesting there?

DE: You know what? We… around Christmas time, my three kids started asking me questions about, you know, what could they do? So we did some research, and Guinness actually has some specific kid world records for kids under the age of 16 in different age categories. And we've submitted their names to attempt a couple, and we're just waiting on the approval for Guinness to say, yes, you can go ahead and do this.

CO: Like what? Give us some examples.

DE: So we've submitted two for them. The first one is how many socks you can put on one foot in 30 seconds.

CO: [laughing] What's the record?

DE: I think it's 16 or 18. [CO chuckles] I think it's 16.

CO: Yeah?

DE: So, you know, perfect for kids, right?

CO: Absolutely!

DE: And then the other one is how fast you can stack 20 Lego blocks in a right-angle tower.

CO: Wow!

DE: Yeah.

CO: Anyway, David, congratulations. I hope you hear good news soon from Guinness, and thanks for speaking with us.

DE: Thank you so much for reaching out. I appreciate it.

CO: Bye-bye.

CH: David Eliuk is the unofficial new world record holder for the most shirts worn during a half-marathon race. We reached him in Edmonton. And you can find more on that story -- including glorious photos -- on our webpage at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Electronic]

Jeff Interviews Carol

CH: Carol's last day is Friday. I know, I know we keep repeating ourselves, but as we said earlier in the show it's because we still can't quite believe it. It's been nice to hear all the great memories you have of her. And last week, we heard from someone who shared a lot of memories -- and a studio with Carol for nearly 10 years: Jeff Douglas. You probably remember their banter, and maybe even Carol's interview with Jeff when he announced he was leaving As It Happens in 2019. Well, today, they switched roles. Jeff is now the host of Mainstreet on CBC Halifax. And he asked Carol why it's been important for her to give a voice to the powerless, over her nearly 16 years behind mic at As It Happens.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: This is, as you know, you were here, one of the most extraordinary places to work in that we are talking to people around the world. We’re calling people in the most extraordinary circumstances and waking them up sometimes, [JD chuckles] or getting them in the bath, or just stopping them in the midst of flight sometimes and getting them to tell us what's going on. And so that… yeah, and so these things are… these things are happening to people. People are under siege and… or… or trying to make their way in all kinds of difficult circumstances. And usually because there are forces that are working with them or against them. And so, to go into their lives and say, okay, what's it like from your point of view? Let's hear what it's like to be in that or that… that famine or that earthquake or that war from your point of view. What does it look like? And then also, what does it look like just to be in some competition, some sports, some science, just from the point of view of what it is to be who you are? What does the world look like? And so, it's just been an extraordinary place to do that.

JEFF DOUGLAS: What do you… what are you going to do next, Carol? [CO chuckles] I mean, not… not after we speak, but after after you sign off next Friday?

CO: According to you, I'm moving to Cape Breton. [laughing]

JD: Yeah, I said Nova Scotia.

CO: Oh, I see.

JD: Other people were like, no, no, I was giving you a little more. [CO chuckles] I wasn't. I wasn't. Come on!

CO: Do you know how many people have said, oh, I hear you're moving to Nova Scotia?

JD: Yeah, when are you moving to Nova Scotia?

CO: No, I'm not moving to Nova Scotia.

JD: Yet. Right.

CO: No. I have family here. Thank you.

JD: Sure.

CO: And, of course, we'll be there in the summer, for sure. But what am I going to do? I don't know. You know, there… as again, being a few months older than you, I… there’s just so much more I want to explore. And I think that I haven't decided because I think that you have to let things go in order to make room for what comes next. And then let that happen. And so, I am very much looking to… I'm doing a summer series for CBC, that's for sure.

JD: Good!

CO: But beyond that, I don't… I don't know. I want to see what… what… what comes into my life or where I go. Just rattle the doorknob for a bit and see what's behind here. And then, you know, maybe explore there. And Oh, okay, this is interesting. And you move on, right? Like you did! Like you left us, oaky? So, stop --

JD: [laughing] Carol!

CO: This what are you going to do next.

JD: I know!

CO: You left us.

JD: Are you going to come down here and host? [CO chuckles] When you move to Nova Scotia, are You going to host a radio show down here?

CO: Yeah, didn’t you hear anything about… oh, sorry, oh, I shouldn't have spoken about this.

JD: Oh boy, I'm sure the --

[crosstalk]

JD: So you said summer series?

CO: Yes! [laughing]

JD: Okay, I have a few months. That's it. I'll let you take over my mortgage down here as well then. [CO chuckles] Final question is what advice would you have for young women, maybe in particular, who might be interested in pursuing a career in journalism? What advice would you have for them? Or what do you wish that you had known starting out?

CO: Oof! I would… what advice would I give them is, I think, the same advice I'd give to the men. I think that things are changing so much. And they… and a lot of things, I just… I don't even understand sometimes. I find that they… they know things I don't know. They can explain things I can't explain. I want them to come in and cover that range of stories and tell us. I mean, when I… in the 80s and 90s, 80s when I started, to have… to talk about needing to have more women on the air, to have more women stories told, was called a radical feminist agenda, you know? And this is laughable now, right? But, you know, that… the… the… the… the stories are open for them. There’s an openness to tell a wider range of stories. And so they need to bring those in. They need to push against the limits. And to always feel the limits. Just feel that you're just pushing the wall that you're going… that you are making demands of the people you work with and of… of… of yourself that are, you know, about to push over the edge. And… and you have a willingness to just fail. [both chuckle] Fail spectacularly every day, fail up as they call it. I think that's the best thing.

JD: That says a lot about your rebel heart, Carol Off. [CO chuckles]

CH: That was former As It Happens co-host and current host of CBC Radio's Mainstreet in Halifax, Jeff Douglas, speaking with Carol about hanging up her As It Happens headphones.

[Music: Ambient]

Part 3: Gordana Knezevic Documentary

Gordana Knezevic Documentary

Guests: Gordana Knezevic, Igor Knezevic

CH: Tonight, as part of our special coverage before Carol's departure, we'll return to a story that changed her.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: Shouts and gunfire]

CH: The sound of the deadly fire that terrorized the people of Sarajevo for years during the war in Bosnia. Thirty years ago, the multicultural city was torn apart. Its people were held captive in the longest military siege in modern history. Snipers shot people down on the streets. The population was surrounded by fighting and unable to escape. And the world learnt of the horrors of ethnic cleansing. Thousands of people died. Here's someone who lived through that terror. Her name is Gordana Knezevic.

SOUNDCLIP

GORDANA KNEZEVIC: We are now in the middle of sniper's alley. I'm amazed to see these kids now playing and to see joggers and to see walkers, you know? And to see young people standing, chatting, you know? Like, it's… I mean, nobody, nobody would dare to pass this road. It was… it was absolutely scary part. And, you know, I would be horrified. And you would always kind of choose your time. And I would try to do it as quickly as possible. That street was real front line. Enemies could actually see each other, and… and watch each other's daily activities. And, like, almost look each other in the eyes. And what is said about this as well. Many of these people knew each other as well, went together to school, or were at each other's marriages, or were each other's best men, you know? And were connected in many other ways, you know? And then, all of a sudden, politicians come and say, well, Muslims are your enemies. You know, meaning courage, for example, or as well. I have to say, on Muslim side, there were politicians as well who who would advocate separation. It's not exclusive Serb ownership.

CH: Gordana Knezevic, speaking to As It Happens on the 20th anniversary of the war in Bosnia, remembering what life was like in Sarajevo. Now, Carol covered the Balkans and the break-up of Yugoslavia, so we wanted to talk to her about it. What made the war in Bosnia and the siege of Sarajevo so particularly horrific?

CO: Well, I think some of what Gordana was saying, that this was a multi-ethnic city. This was a beautiful place, Sarajevo. It was a… it was a model of tolerance in Eastern Europe. And then, these different ethnicities, they weren't just a casualty of the war. They were the target. That was… that was what those who were attacking it, the Serbs, wanted to destroy. Not just the Muslims, but the multi-ethnic quality. And… and my biggest regret in my whole career of journalism is that it took me too long to realize what the… what the break-up of Yugoslavia actually represented. And I was like so many other reporters, I thought, well, this is… I'd heard Canadian General Lewis Mackenzie talk about this backwater. This kind of, I don't know, medieval throwback Bosnia. It wasn't worth any of our soldiers dying or being hurt in defence of it. And I accepted that. And a few reporters like Anna Maria Tremonti, who were there and covered it. But most of us just… just ignored it. And then as the years went on, four years of that siege, it became clear that the truth was that this was not an attack on… a bunch of people killing each other. This is an attack on tolerance and justice and cohabiting with others. And what became so obvious to many of us who then ran to… to… to be there to witness it is that this is something that could… could happen anywhere, could happen in this country, too.

CH: And the voice we heard just a moment ago describing how friends and longtime neighbours turned on each other during that period. Her name was Gordana Knezevic. Tell me about her?

CO: So, Gordana was a journalist for the Oslobođenje newspaper in Sarajevo. She was the managing editor. This is a newspaper that put out an edition every single day, I think, except maybe Sundays, during the entire siege. [chuckling] Even when they only had scraps of paper to put it on. And the… the… the those attacking the city turned on that newspaper building, they turned it into rubble. And so, Gordana and all the others just kept on putting the paper out. They worked in the rubble of that building. And whenever… whenever foreign journalists went to Sarajevo to cover the siege, they would go to see Gordana Knezevic. She was… she was the oracle. She was the one who could explain what was going on. People brought her food, which she shared with the other reporters. And she would tell them the news. And… and she… she is ethnically Serb. But she didn't identify as Serbian. She saw herself as part of a multi-ethnic Bosnia. And she stayed there and covered that story. She was that oracle, and she suffered tremendously. She lost so many friends and colleagues who were killed. Her health deteriorated. And she… most difficult of all, she had to send two of her children away while she could do her job, and so… so they could be safe. And that was, I think, one of the hardest things she did.

CH: It never ceases to amaze me over the years on this program, the… the journalists who keep working, keep putting out a paper in the middle of a war zone or under an authoritarian regime. It's… it's amazing. Now, you went back to Sarajevo for As It Happens in 2012, and you reunited with Gordana there to talk about the war and talk about her experiences. And she talked to you at that time about her family separating. Let's listen.

SOUNDCLIP

GK: That is probably the day which I remember the best from entire war. And maybe for me, it was the most difficult day. It's May the second, 1992. And that's the day when the war actually started in the full-scale. But we didn't know that. The day before, a journalist visited me and said that she has two tickets for the bus, which was on its road to Belgrade. And she said that she can take two of my kids with her. And I remember at the time my husband and I, we made the kind of instant decision that the little one, Olga, who was six at the time that she has to go out. And her brother, Igor, who was 14 at the time, would go out to take care of her. I was just thinking, what will happen next? And will this smile go away?

CH: So many years later, and you can still hear in Gordana's voice how… how incredibly difficult that decision was.

CO: It's 20 years. Twenty years after that day. And she put her children on that bus, and that was the last bus to leave Sarajevo. And then, as she and her husband were returning home, the shelling began and the city closed. And Gordana thought it might be months before she could see her children again. It was years, and they didn't reunite again as a family until they were on the tarmac of… of Pearson Airport in Toronto. And they… they ended up there as refugees, the family. The family, they were really drawn to Canada. They wanted to come to Canada because it was the country that most resembled Bosnia. It is a multi-ethnic place, a country where people live together in peace as… as they saw it.

CH: That's the kind of resolution, but it's not the end of her story. You've kept in touch with Gordana over the years. How would you describe your relationship?

CO: Well, Gordana is a very special friend of mine, but she also is a colleague. She helped me to write my first book, which was about Canada's failure in Bosnia. We wrote about Lewis McKenzie. She started a group called Journalists in Exile, and that was to help other refugee journalists who came to Canada. It still operates. It's now helping Afghans. So she continues to… her legacy continues. But she has been… she's been like a family to me. And her family has been mine. And the latest chapter of her story is that her son, Igor, that fellow that was on the bus when he was 14 years old 30 years ago, he is now living with his mum and helping her because her health is failing rapidly. She's fighting brain cancer. And Igor is there for her.

CH: Now, we've done a fair amount of stuff as your departure approaches. And it's all been, you know, listener suggestions or stuff that we've pulled from the archives to test you. But this is a story that you wanted to share again on the show before you go, why… why is that?

CO: Because Gordana is still that touchstone for me and for so many other journalists. And I wanted people to… to remember her as that person who was our oracle. She went to Prague for many years, but returned recently to Canada, and when she did, she received this award for her work with that Journalists in Exile group. She won the Canadian Journalists for Free Expression Award. And… and she said at that time, and it's haunted me. She said that the war in Bosnia and the siege of Sarajevo was kind of the last gasp of the 20th century of conflicts of the two World Wars and the Cold War. And so, what you came to realize now is that it was not the last gasp, it was the first gasp of the 21st century. And this era of ethnic nationalism that is growing, she saw, as she has so many times before, is that we could have more wars if we don't see what's coming and try and do something about it. And… and so, your question, why did I want to return to her? And I want to understand from her what she meant. And I wanted to hear the rest of that story. And so, we went… her son, Igor, is at her home in downtown Toronto, and we went to join the two of them there.

CH : Let's listen to that now.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: A door knock]

IGOR KNEZEVIC: Hello.

CO: Hello to you, Igor.

IK: How are you? So lovely to see you!

CO: Good to see you, too. Wow, thank you. Oh, there she is! Thank you! Gordana, you look terrific!

GK: Nice! This is COVID style hair.

CO: [chuckles] I think we both have the same hairdo now. I think this is COVID hair.

GK: Yeah! Uh-huh.

CO: Wow, all the books! I love this apartment. I'm glad you're here.

IK: It's cosy.

CO: It is cosy.

IK: Yes. Would you like some coffee, Carol.

CO: I'd love some coffee. Yes.

IK: Yes, okay. How do you take your coffee?

CO: This is Bosnian coffee, or this is…

IK: No, this is Canadian coffee.

CO: [both laughing] Just some milk in there would be great!

IK: All right. Just some milk.

CO: Where would you like me to sit?

GK: Please, sit here.

IK: Over here.

CO: Okay, I’ll sit right here. Yeah, thank you. Okay, [a spoon clanks] Gordana, it is so good to have you back in Canada.

GK: Thank you.

CO: We've missed you so much. How does it feel to live here again?

GK: If I think back, like I never left, really. All my other friends were either Chezk citizenship, or they would go for American citizenship. And everybody was asking me why you don't do something about citizenship? I said, I'm Canadian. [chuckling] What shall I do? So, I never did take another… another citizenship.

CO: And, Igor, what's it like having your mom home? Having… spending time with her?

IK: It's lovely. It's nice to… actually, this is more… we haven't spent as much time together, I think, since… I think since I was a child. So, yeah, it's… it's lovely. It's nice to be able to help her now that she's… she needs a little bit of assistance in daily life and so on.

CO: And you have a son now, and he's with you here.

IK: That's right. Yeah, so it's very cosy. You know, three generations in this condo. And, yeah, and as I said, it's… it's a bit of a throwback for us, you know? Thinking back to the time when you know, I was the child of the house, and… and Mum was doing everything for me. Now… now I guess the roles are reversed a little bit, [GK chuckles] but.

CO: Could be… you need a lot of help in the house?

GK: I do! That’s after the operation. That's after the brain tumour.

CO: When we talk about what it was like when years ago. And I just… I brought some… a book that has photographs in it that always make me think so much of this time in Sarajevo. And that has a book… a picture. Gordana, I want you to take a look at this and tell me what you think of the people there? If you can find yourself in that photograph?

GK: Huh! That's the photo of… this photo was made by [hard to make out] . And actually, I can find myself here. I am sitting next to the editor in chief. The biggest danger was to get to the building and to get out. And we would send our drafts, our everything, whatever we wrote to the driver, and --

CO: Dodging sniper fire and shells along the way.

GK: That's right. That's right. And interesting thing is that this car was hit a number of times, but nobody ever was killed.

CO: We want to play a bit of tape from when you and I… when you and I were in Sarajevo.

GK: Yeah.

CO: Just, well, 10 years ago, you went back for the anniversary, and you and I were talking at the bus station.

GK: [chuckle] That’s right.

CO: And we're going to play a bit of that tape so Igor can hear it because I’m going to get him to respond.

[Soundclip]

GK: I thought at the time, it's just for the summer. It's short separation. And this won't last. And somebody would stop this because I only packed summer clothes. And I remember when the winter started, I couldn't stop thinking how I didn't put their coats. How they made it in the bigger world, you know? I didn't have idea of what was waiting for them outside.

[End of soundclip]

CO: What comes to mind when you hear that?

IK: it's… you know, obviously it's a moment that I think changed all our lives. And, of course, in that moment, I don't think any of us were aware what the significance would be of the departure, of that journey, of nobody could predict, as Mum said herself. Nobody, they… they, my mom and my dad couldn't predict this would be a four-year conflict. That we would be separated for years. That when we finally reunited, we would be completely, completely different individuals. And I remember being quite serious. I don't think I was afraid because, again, I didn't quite understand or know what lay ahead of us. But I do remember I was thinking mainly about Olga. She was now my responsibility. And, you know, I would be her one family member. Wherever we ended up, we were… at the time, we were on our way to Cairo temporarily as we thought.

CO: She was six at the time, right?

IK: She was six. She was six years old. She… she certainly had no idea. She thought we were going on a little trip. You know, while things calmed down because mom and dad were busy with work and the war, and, you know, she didn't… and, of course, I understood the situation a little bit more. I knew… I knew what was going on.

CO: Can you imagine… can you imagine putting your own son… can imagine yourself, your son, putting him on the bus at that age and… and not knowing if you see him ever again?

IK: Well, that's… that's another thing. Obviously, the way I think about that day has changed since I've… since I've had a son, you know? And… and he's been that age that Olga was on that day. And I… I… I can't imagine doing the same thing. I don't know what I would do under those… you know, in those conditions, under those circumstances. For… for me, it was mainly I remember my… my father, who kept a diary throughout the war. And for his entry for that day, for May 2nd, is actually one of the shortest, which is… which is… and the reason for that is not because nothing happened that day, but because everything happened that day. Not only that he… he… he made a short entry in his diary that they had just returned from the bus station having dropped us off, and that they probably weren't aware themselves how dangerous that walk was back home.

CO: Because the shelling had started at that point?

IK: Because the shelling had started. And, of course, and… and I imagine the rest of the day, he had no time to… to write anything more because that was perhaps the most important day in the war for the city.

CO: Because you spent… you spent the next four years… or they spent the next four years trying to survive the shelling, and the sniping, and…

IK: Absolutely. And… and that day itself, the way it sort of… May 2nd is the day when perhaps the most significant attempt to capture the city on the Yugoslav Army and the Bosnian Serbs surrounding it took place and actually began precisely around the time that our bus left at 11:00 on… on that morning.

CO: You didn't reunite again as a family until you were in Toronto.

GK: That's right. That's right.

CO: Four years later?

IK: At Toronto airport.

GK: Five! Five years later!

CO: Gordana, when you came to Canada, for me, the friendship that I was able to have with you was more than just a friendship. For me, you were always a source of wisdom for me. Just a place to go and… and figure out what the world was about. You just… you taught me so much about what mattered. And I remember most clearly when you won the award at Canadian Journalists for Free Expression. They wanted to award you for everything you've done, not just for… in Bosnia, but that you started a program for journalists in exile. You’ve done so much. Do you remember what it was like? How did you feel when they gave you that award when you came back to Canada?

GK: It was a big surprise. It was a big surprise because I was thinking that a big… a big portion of my life and work was outside Canada. And it was absolutely shock for me that anybody in the country still remembers.

CO: Your acceptance speech for the award, you… you said something that has haunted me ever since. And it was that you said that you had come to the conclusion that the war in Bosnia was not the last gasp of war of the 20th century. It was the first gasp of the 21st century, and ethnic nationalism and war. And that you feared the most that this was… Bosnia was the first war, and not the last. What did you mean by that?

GK: I just thought that nothing was wrong with our past. It was similar to any European country. Everybody was looking what happened in the past, and some… somehow was finding the roots of this war in our past. Yes, but only after the war in Bosnia, nationalism became a major issue in Europe. The other thing is, white supremacy was a major issue, far-right radicalism was a major issue. But all these things didn't exist before the war in Bosnia. It was… it was Bosnian War, which awaked the ghost.

CO: Woke up the ghost.

GK: That's right. That's right.

CO: When you said that at the awards, it was the first time I realized how serious it was, how serious the world had changed. There was now this real fear that what happened in Bosnia could happen anywhere.

GK: Yeah.

IK: Balkanisation.

CO: The Balkanisation, but also this ethnic… this ethnic nationalism that could strike anywhere.

IK: Yeah, exactly. And what Mum was trying to say, I think, is that from back in 1992, it seemed that the Yugoslavs, Bosnians were drawing borders and separating and dividing and… and fighting against each other. Whereas, the rest of Europe was uniting, erasing borders and so on. It seemed that we were sort of being left behind by history. But it turned out that what happened to Yugoslavia and Bosnia afterward is what would happen to Europe to some extent and is still happening in mainly in Eastern Europe, but not only in Eastern Europe. Of course, we've had Brexit. We've had movements to… to… to sort of separate from the European Union in many major European countries. But, of course, in Eastern Europe, we have governments that are advocating policies, not only nationalist policies, but also toward refugees, toward people from other parts of the world trying to enter Europe, which are not that dissimilar to what was being advocated by some of the Serb and Croat leadership in the 1990s.

CO: But these… these emotions of xenophobia, racism, of fearing the other that you saw that broke up all of Yugoslavia, these are now emotions that are tearing apart Europe.

IK: Absolutely, yeah.

CO: Do you see them in Canada, Gordana? Do you see Canada moving in the same… these emotions of fearing the other, xenophobia, racism, do you see it here to the same degree?

GK: You know why it is difficult to talk about Canada? Because last two years, we have COVID and something is going to be born out of COVID. Many people despise liberalism, and they don't like… they don't like the freedom they enjoy in liberal society.

CO: But if you’re… but if you're saying… if you're saying you think that something new will come… something will be born from these two years in politics, in society. Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

GK: I think that Canada is safe. That's what I think. Because it would be simply too much to… to have a trouble in every country wherever I go. [all laugh]

CO: You're taking this personally.

GK: That’s right.

CO: But, do you think it's. Do you see it in the United States, though?

GK: I think the United States are not at all a safe place anymore. Not anymore. No, I… I think anything is possible… is possible when it comes to the United States.

CO: Igor.

IK: No, I was just going to add we've had a preview of what can happen in the U.S., obviously with the January 6th uprising, and which some are not taking too seriously in the U.S., I mean. But, you know, we… it's similar in the sense that we also had previews of that kind in Yugoslavia and in Bosnia. Violent events that we didn't take seriously.

GK: It's now happening… it's… we… we don't know how it will end in Hungary? We don't know how it will end in Poland. We don't know… we don't know what evil Putin is planning, and whether he will make war in Ukraine or not? But it looks like he will… he is going to make a war.

CO: So it could happen in anywhere. It could happen even in Putin's Russia. But… but I'm going to cling to this idea that you think it couldn't happen in Canada.

GK: [chuckling] No.

IK: Or at least it would be the last place.

CO: [chuckling] Okay.

GK: The fact that I came here is speaking a lot. It means that I do believe that Canada is going to stay as it was. I don't think it's going to be changed.

CO: One image that… of all these artists of… in Sarajevo that keeps coming back for people, and that's the image of a man who is playing his cello in the ruins of the library.

Speaker 4: His name is Vedran Smajlovic. And I would come to listen to him. It was… It was absolutely wonderful because he was playing Albinoni.

CO: Albinoni’s Adagio in G minor

GK: That’s it!

CO: And can we play it now?

GK: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely.

[Music: “Adagio in G minor” by Tomaso Albinoni]

CO: When you hear that piece of music, what comes to mind?

GK: The message was you can shoot, but you won't. You can kill, but you won't kill the spirit of the city. And, uh, that… that was the message.

IK: It was one of those many acts of resistance during the war. You know, we've said already how the war came from the future, so to speak. But it was also. And when we speak of that piece of music, it was a kind of Requiem for the 20th century.

CO: If it's a message… if that if this piece of music. If this piece of music is a message to the future, if it's a warning, perhaps to the future. What is the warning about?

IK: Well, it's the warning, you know, I remember there is a quote, which I can't recall exactly right now, but there's a quote from Keynes about, you know, the thin veneer of civilization, you know? And how easily it can be lost.

GK: I think the message is that no country is an island.

[Music fades up]

CO: Just to finish, I want to say, Igor, it has been over these years, so wonderful to see you… to see you grow up and have your own child. And you've been such a… such a good friend and a good supporter for your mom.

GK: Um-hmm.

IK: Thank you, Carol.

CO: Gordana, you have been such a good Canadian, [both laugh] and I'm so happy you're here. And I'm happy to have you as my friend. Thank you.

GK AND IK: Thank you.

IK: And you've been a wonderful friend to us all these years since our arrival in Canada, actually.

GK: Yeah.

IK: You are Canada for us in many ways. [GK and IK laugh]

GK. Igor is right. Actually, you are Canada for us. [laughing]

CH: That was Gordana Knezevic and her son Igor speaking with Carol at their home in Toronto. You can find more on their story on our webpage at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

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February 22, 2022 Episode Transcript

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