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The Current Transcript for February 21, 2022

Host: Duncan McCue

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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Everything is back. I'm so happy. Finally, we're back. Thanks for police guy, We appreciate to them.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Many people who live in Ottawa are sharing that jubilation. It comes after a police cleared the protest that occupied downtown streets in the nation's capital in half an hour. We'll look at morale in that city in the aftermath of three weeks of disruption. Also, we'd lose the huge amounts of food and nutritious stuff. I mean, we'd even be without chocolate. We'd be without ice cream to a world without insects would be a world without chocolate or ice cream. And let's face it, that's basically saying it'd be a world without happiness. In an hour, we'll talk about why insect populations have decreased by a shocking 97 percent in Denmark and are in freefall most other places in the world as well. We start, though, with a long awaited public enquiry. Good morning, I'm Duncan McCue in for Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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Inquiry set to begin into Nova Scotia mass shooting of 2020

Guests: Elizabeth McMillan, Darcy Dobson

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VOICE 1: We want answers, we deserve answers. The family, the ones that aren't here, we just we want answers and the truth. We want a public enquiry.

VOICE 2: It happened in rural Nova Scotia, and the RCMP has things to learn, so the public enquiry will only help them learn what didn't happen right.

VOICE 3: Nothing will bring our loved ones back. Nothing.

VOICE 4: It's to not happen to somebody else. It could have been any, anyone here.

VOICE 5: You can't grieve if you don't- don't have the whole story.

DM: It was the worst mass shooting in Canadian history. Over 13 hours, a gunman driving a fake RCMP car through rural Nova Scotia shot and killed 22 people. Two years later, many people are still haunted by how he managed to kill so many. In the coming weeks, there could finally be some answers. The public enquiry into what happened is set to begin tomorrow. CBC reporter Elizabeth McMillan has been investigating this story. She joins us from Halifax. Good morning, Elizabeth.

ELIZABETH MCMILLAN: Good morning, Duncan.

DM: This is a moment a lot of people have been waiting for. Help us understand why is it so important?

ELIZABETH MCMILLAN: Well, there are huge unanswered questions. There have been for nearly two years, as you said, 22 people were killed and their families were left to grieve without fully understanding what happened or why the killer wasn't stopped. For one thing, multiple people told police who the gunman was within the first half an hour of 9-1-1 calls coming in, and yet he managed to get away. He hid overnight, and then he resumed the rampage the next day.

DM: Take us back, Elizabeth. I mean, these shootings, they happened in several communities and some of the victims were neighbours and others were strangers, and it was spread out over two days. The whole thing as it was unfolding was just, I mean, it was the scope of it was it was really hard to grasp. So can you just take us, walk us back through it a little bit?

ELIZABETH MCMILLAN: Yeah. So the violence started in Portapique, which is a tiny community, and the roads in this particular subdivision aren't paved. There's no streetlights. Many of the homes and cottages are set back from the roads on Big Lots in the woods. And that night, in April 2020, the gunman became angry and he physically attacked his common law partner. He was shooting at her, and she managed to escape and hide. And then, for reasons we don't know, he shot at his neighbours and he killed 13 of them. He also set two of their homes on fire, and he torched his own cottage and this big garage that he had. And after police arrived, he drove out a back road. But at the time, they didn't realise that and he wasn't done yet.

DM: And the timeline there, how long had that period taken?

ELIZABETH MCMILLAN: We don't know exactly when he attacked his spouse, but it could have happened within an hour. And in terms of the overlap with police and the gunman leaving very small window like perhaps they've said, you know, 15 minutes, 20 minutes.

DM: And so then he set out.

ELIZABETH MCMILLAN: How he parked overnight in this industrial area, and the next day he killed nine more people. Three of them were acquaintances. He went to their homes and the six others were complete strangers that he encountered when he was driving through communities. When he was on his final victims home, he stole her car. And there's this detail that I can't help but think in some ways it may have saved other lives because the car was out of gas, so he had to go to this busy gas station to refuel. And by chance, a man who'd been out looking for him, also was out of gas pulled up next to him, happened to recognise him and shot him dead. So that's where it ended. But there's just so many questions about how the shooter managed to move freely for 13 hours and do so much damage along the way. And that's really why there's an enquiry.

DM: And a lot of questions. I mean, the RCMP have been criticised heavily for it for not stopping the gunman, but not warning the public when he was still out on the loose. So what kind of questions do people have about about how the police handled the murders and how is the enquiry going to get into that?

ELIZABETH MCMILLAN: Yeah. So in terms of the questions, as I mentioned, there's so many questions about why it was that it took them about 12 hours to share with the public the information they had since they arrived on scene, which was that the gunman was ID by name and that he was driving what appeared to be an RCMP cruiser. And and when they did release that information, they used Twitter. And in rural Nova Scotia, internet isn't great. It's spotty, and not a lot of people are on Twitter. So there's still people wonder why police didn't send out an emergency alert that would have gone to people's phones. And, you know, the province had sent one about a week earlier to remind people about COVID and social distancing. So that's something that the people have always questioned. And there's other bigger questions, too, in terms of what police knew about the gunman in advance, why it was that he was not on their radar. And why exactly it took them so long to catch up with him.

DM: You mentioned the common law spouse at the beginning. One witness a lot of people want to hear from. Will she be testifying?

ELIZABETH MCMILLAN: It's unlikely, at least in the next few weeks. So she is facing criminal charges, she's accused of giving the gunman the ammunition he used. Police have always said that she did not know how he was going to use it. She's pleaded not guilty and she's going to trial at the end of March. But until that happens, it's not clear what, if any, role she's going to have in these public proceedings.

DM: Are there other people that the victims families would like to hear from that we could expect to hear from at the enquiry?

ELIZABETH MCMILLAN: Well, one of the things you know I've certainly always heard in and part of the reason that people push for an enquiry was to be able to get answers from pose questions to the people who are on the ground, the people who are making decisions and the people who are there and to better understand what happened. And this enquiry, even though it's starting this week, it's it's not going to be witness after witness and certainly not going to be every RCMP officer who responded giving testimony, because this is the first public portion of the enquiry's work. But for the past more than a year, they've had a team of investigators looking into what happened behind the scenes. They've been conducting their own interviews, going through the RCMP investigation. So starting next week, they're going to this commission. Staff lawyers are going to be presenting these documents as summarise their findings and go through the details of those witness interviews that they've conducted. So it's not clear how many witnesses are actually going to be called to give testimony and who will be called. And that's certainly been a frustration for our families who who've wanted to ask these questions, who called for this process so they could ask those questions, and they say they're still not clear on who they'll be able to pose questions to and and to to what extent, because it's really going to be a case by case basis when witnesses are called and whether commissioners allow legal counsel for participants to ask questions.

DM: So lots unclear about the process. Still, you've been looking into this for nearly two years now, Elizabeth. Is there a key thing you're hoping to find out?

ELIZABETH MCMILLAN: Well, Duncan, there's been so much speculation, so many rumours. We haven't heard directly from the RCMP in more than a year and a half. And we've certainly done our own investigation. We've CBC, and other media, we've gone to court to try to get a search warrant documents. But there's still gaps, and I do hope I have hope this process your way to get clarity on all the details and fill in some of those gaps. And I certainly hope you people who are most affected and families and are able to to get answers that they've been looking for and in some manner of closure.

DM: You mentioned the concerns about how the enquiry is constituted. I mean, will this enquiry be able to get to the bottom of what happened?

ELIZABETH MCMILLAN: It's still not clear. We have no sense of the the work that they've done, the information that they've gathered. So I guess time will tell in terms of how, how thorough the work is and how thorough this hearing process will be in terms of giving clarity to the public and the people who are affected.

DM: Elizabeth, thanks for your work on this.

ELIZABETH MCMILLAN: You're welcome.

DM: Elizabeth McMillan is a reporter for CBC based in Halifax. Darcy Dobson fought for a public enquiry. Her mother, Heather, was killed on the highway on the second day of the shooting. She's with me from Colchester, Nova Scotia. Good morning, Darcy.

DARCY DOBSON: Good morning, Duncan.

DM: How are you doing as this public enquiry is set to begin?

DARCY DOBSON: I'm doing well considering it's been very frustrating to say the very least.

DM: You've been right out at the front calling for this enquiry from the beginning. What was it like to to be demanding this two years ago and to see it happening now?

DARCY DOBSON: I think when we started to demand the public enquiry two years ago, we didn't have the full scope of what this public enquiry was going to look like, because if you think about public enquiries in Canada and the history of them, you have some sort of an idea of how they're going to go, which is almost the direct opposite of how this enquiry is starting to play out. It's very different than anything that I have ever spent any amount of time looking into. If I had known. Then what I know now, I would have walked away from the idea of an enquiry altogether.

DM: Why?

DARCY DOBSON: The Mass Casualty Commission has not been open with family members and they will release a statement saying that they have been. But the truth is, I don't know any more being one of the most affected by this tragedy than you do. So I don't have any more information. I don't have any more information than what's posted online on their website. They would have everybody believe that we are all working together, but my counsel has now released two press releases saying like, We need all of this before we start. And like, we're days away, like, this is not something that's, you know, we still have months to go through disclosure. And no, like if it's days.

DM: You wrote a letter to the Mass Casualty Commission recently, and it was highly critical of how it's all been handled so far. And you say this, I mean, you've this is addressed to the commission. You've added to the trauma. You're not helping, you're hurting. Why did you say that?

DARCY DOBSON: They have, many times been in the public saying, you know, this is trauma informed, we need to keep a trauma informed, and I think it's worth noting that everybody's trauma is different. So you can't say, you know, this is going to be a trauma informed enquiry. What does that mean, exactly? And I actually asked that question to one of the committee counsel, and I got a very run-around answer. For my family, in particular the not knowing and the not having the disclosure and not having the information and not being able to walk in there with some sense of, okay, we're finally going to get to the bottom of the whys and how this happened, that hurts more than it should. It hurts more than, you know, the if you gave me all the answers, if you gave me all the disclosure, if you gave me the things that you have that I do not have, then maybe I could start the healing process. Maybe my family could begin to heal, but we don't get that.

DM: Will you be testifying?

DARCY DOBSON: I have no idea.

DM: You don't know yet whether you'll be you'll be testifying.

DARCY DOBSON: I have no idea who will be testifying. I have no idea what my participation looks like in the enquiry at all. My counsel has heard from the commission once and it was just to give us the same schedule that's online.

DM: Do you do you want to testify?

DARCY DOBSON: I believe it's important that every family has the opportunity to tell their story, especially family members. So I know a lot of people think that the family members weren't there. How would they know there were some family members there, some family members who haven't even been interviewed? That word should be pertinent to this investigation into the why in the how these things happened. But you know, it's either people are getting interviews last minute or not at all, so.

DM: Have you been in contact with with some of the people who who lost loved ones in the shooting?

DARCY DOBSON: Yes. So yes, of course I have great friends. I've developed some great friendships out of this. I mean, it's an unfortunate way to to develop friendships. But a lot of the family members, other family members I have great relationships with.

DM: And what are they saying about their hopes or discouragement with the NRA right now?

DARCY DOBSON: I would say we're all on the same page. I'm not the only family member who wrote a letter. I know Charlene Bagley wrote a letter. Darrell Currie, who is the deputy fire chief at Onslow Belmont, and Greg Mills, who is the fire chief, said also that month, they wrote a letter as well. Nick Beaton, he made a statement this past week. So, I'm not alone in this.

DM: You've pointed out that you've still got lots of questions. What are what are some of the main questions that you have about what actually happened?

DARCY DOBSON: I think one of the biggest ones for me would be the alert ready system. The buck has been passed on that back and forth between the government and the RCMP so many times, and I would really like to get to the bottom of the communications for that and and how that happened or or didn't happen. Just because I know my mom wouldn't have been on the road that day had she got an alert to her phone, but she got when the Sunday before because it was Easter and they didn't want anybody to be together because of the pandemic. So it's to me, it's just it's almost it is a slap in the face that it can be used for a pandemic to make sure we're not gathering. But there's a mad man on the loose with a gun in an RCMP replica car that you do you know about. The RCMP has known about for hours. But that didn't seem like enough to to let the public know,

DM: as has this enquiry gets under way, are you going to be able to attend even? Do you know?

DARCY DOBSON: With public health restrictions, they are going to allow 50 of the most affected in to the public enquiries. Had they not have, I would have gone anyway, even if I had to sit in the parking lot. So it's a, I'm not not going. That's where I stand at this point, like I will be there.

DM: It seems as if your discussions with the commission have been mediated by lawyers. Have you had interactions with them? Did you get a response to your to your letter raising the concerns?

DARCY DOBSON: Yeah. So the only reason I even brought my letter to the attention of media, Elizabeth McMillan, is because I did get a response to my letter and it was after a meeting I had with the commission's counsel that I decided that I was going to, to put this out to the public because the public interest is really what's at heart here. Nothing's going to bring our loved ones back. We're just trying to prevent anything like this ever happening again. So I made a decision to come forth with my letter and put it in the public eye because I had communication that went exactly as my letter said. It was a lot of lip service, a lot of roundabout answers. I asked direct questions and I did not get direct answers. They don't seem to listen at all. It's the very condescending tone in the room when you sit down with commission counsel, and I have found that every time I have sat down with them.

DM: A this all begins, I'm sure you'll be thinking about your mom.

DARCY DOBSON: Yes.

DM: She was a nurse. At one point in the letter, you say that, you know, every all of your efforts have been to make sure that that she didn't die in vain. What would you like us to know about her?

DARCY DOBSON: I think all anybody wants is for your loved ones and the people who their faces are in the public, they're everywhere as we want them to be remembered for the way that they lived, not the way they died and. I know the way they died is of public interest, but if the public could just take the time and remember, like this woman she was, she was a gardener and a dancer and a nurse and a mom and a grandma, and she had the most beautiful spirit. And I think that's really important to remember going into this. It keeps me humble, you know, because it's for her. And at the end of the day, the only people I need to be right with are myself and my mom.

DM: It's a difficult time for you, and I really thank you for taking time to share it with us.

DARCY DOBSON: Thank you.

DM: That was Darcy Dobson in Colchester County, Nova Scotia. The Mass Casualty Commission is set to begin tomorrow in that province. CBC News is next. Then.

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My window in my apartment faces Bank Street, so I've been watching. I mean, this is a residential neighbourhood, right? So it feels a little strange to have it under attack for three weeks at a time. So it feels surreal, but it's nice to see the police have it back under control and the journalists working hard.

DM: The streets of Ottawa are finally free of trucks and protesters in six minutes. We'll talk to some Ottawa residents about how they're dealing with the aftermath. I'm Duncan McCue. Matt Galloway is off enjoying a well-deserved break on a family day. Hope you're enjoying family day or the long weekend, whatever it's called the province you are in. You're listening to The Current.

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Life returns to normal in Ottawa, but residents assess the impacts

Guests: Scott May, Zexi Li, Matt Fleury

DM: Hi, I'm Duncan McCue, and you're listening to The Current. Still to come, we talk a lot about the mammals on the brink of extinction. The white rhino, the mountain gorilla. But some scientists say we should be more worried about the insects that are dying in droves in just under 30 minutes. The dramatic decline of bugs and what it means for humans. But first, what the truck convoy left behind in Canada's capital.

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Unidentified: [sc]

[Protestors chanting]

VOICE 1: They can arrest me, I'll go peacefully, whatever.

VOICE 2: But you're willing to go to jail?

VOICE 1: Yeah, why not? I mean, this is for my rights. We're here fighting for everybody's, you know, freedom of choice, you know, without discrimination. So if I'm going to get arrested for that, so be it.

VOICE 2: This is the most police we've seen, eh?

VOICE 1: Yeah, yeah. This today is a day they're going to try to shut us down.

VOICE 2: I mean, you look though at...

DM: What a difference a weekend makes. That was Friday, the police operation to clear the occupation of Ottawa's downtown unfolded through the weekend. They made 191 arrests, laid 389 charges, toad 79 vehicles. Now those sounds have been quelled and people who live in Ottawa were out on the streets yesterday taking it all in. I'm happy that it's over. Frustrated that it took this long. It's frustrating to see your city like that.

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VOICE 1: It feels a bit surreal, to be honest, to be even out in this area after three weeks of public disturbance. So it's nice to have the neighbourhood back. I mean, I'm just one young single girl and I haven't felt safe enough to walk down my own street that I used to go for my mental health walks throughout this pandemic.

VOICE 2: It's a little bit eerie, but I'm cautiously optimistic. I think we'll always have to take care, but I'm hoping it's the beginning of the end of this particular chapter.

VOICE 3: It looks so perfect and everything is back. I'm so happy. Finally! We're back.

DM: Back after three weeks of gridlock in the nation's capital caused by anti-pandemic mandate protesters, many businesses had to close during that time, and the federal government has announced $20 million to support those affected. Scott May is the owner and operator of Bar Robo on Queen Street in downtown Ottawa. Hello, Scott.

SCOTT MAY: Good morning, Duncan, how are you?

DM: I'm doing well. You could tell from some of those Ottawa residents they're feeling pretty good, too. How about you? How are you feeling this morning about what's happened over the weekend?

SCOTT MAY: Well, to paraphrase the late, great Jerry Garcia, what a long, strange trip it's been.

DM: No kidding. Your bar is right in the middle of the right, in the heart of it, all of it. What kind of plans do you have to reopen?

SCOTT MAY: We're located in a premier office space downtown. And as such, the building has been closed to all but tenants of the building, so we've been enduring an enforced shutdown in the last three weeks. Of course, we will shut down the previous four weeks due to Ontario's lockdown, where we couldn't open the bar. It was strictly takeout in Ontario and then we were also closed for the Christmas holidays for a couple of weeks before that. In total, we've been closed for two months now and we're pretty excited to get ready to reopen. We don't know when that's going to happen, so we have to see if we can reopen tomorrow, frankly.

DM: How have the last three weeks been for you?

SCOTT MAY: It's been heartbreaking, you know, at the very least, when we were shut down by the government during lockdowns that prevented bars and restaurants from being open other than for takeout. We at least had a target date where we could reopen, but the last few weeks we've been left with little choice but to check the news every morning and see where we're sitting. And you know, clearly after the first weekend of the siege, we could tell that no one was going home and we had no end in sight. And that was the most frustrating part, not knowing, you know, when we could get back at what we do best present live shows entertain guests, be hospitable, hospitable and some great food.

DM: Live music is your bread and butter. How has it impacted the artists that you wanted to book for your venues, the suppliers employees?

SCOTT MAY: So it's interesting you mention that, Duncan, because you know, we I I spent a lot of time in January readying to be reopened on January 31st to at least be back at 50 percent capacity. So we had booked a full full slate of shows starting January 31st. And one by one, I had to cancel them and rebook them. And you know, the artists are suffering. They're not getting a paycheque. We have a show booked for tomorrow night. Hopefully if we reopen and this will be the third time we've tried to rebook this particular artists. Her name is Davina Pearl. She's a great sax player and telling me during the night if we can show each one.

DM: I was looking at your Twitter feed and it was just another show cancelled. Another show cancelled, another show cancelled. How does that hurt local artists?

SCOTT MAY: Well, it's terrible for the arts community. I mean, you know, our stage is a 390 seat capacity stage two blocks from Parliament Hill in the heart of the tourist zone. And it's a big venue for local artists, you know, for us to showcase. So it hurts them and it hurts staff. We have no no paycheques going out to everybody involved in the Queen street fair food for, you know, for three weeks now, and it's hurting everybody. Business, staff morale, the downtown core. It's going to take a while to get back on track, I think.

DM: What about your employees? Are they have you been able to pay them? Are they coming back?

SCOTT MAY: We have been able to pay them. Our staff is the best staff in town. They're hospitality veterans, the grapes. We love them. So we did everything under our power to continue paying them during the during a lockout.

DM: OK, so you've got money going out, but none coming in. I mentioned the government's offering some financial support to two Ottawa businesses that have been hurt by all this. How satisfied are you with with what the government is doing for businesses like yours?

SCOTT MAY: Well, you know, the they were nice enough to extend the some of the wage and rent benefits, which as far as I know, has now expired. So we're on our own. You know, the Ontario, you know, Doug Ford announced a couple of months ago that they were going to do another round of financing called the Main Street Relief Grant. Still waiting to hear about when that's going to be distributed. That'll help a little bit. And the $20 billion fund sounds like a lot, but they're limiting it to a maximum of $10,000 per business. You know, unfortunately, in the rush to get it out, I'm not sure they thought it through, you know, whether a 400 seat music venue will benefit equally from mom and pop dry cleaning store? You know, frankly, I'm not sure $10000 per business might be a drop in the bucket, or it might be a life saver for us. Certainly helpful, at least, to help us cover a little bit of costs. You know, we still have to pay insurance under, you know, wages and keep everybody as happy as we can. Fortunately, we're in a pretty good place and we're really just looking forward to getting back open and executing what we do best, which is really cool music.

DM: And that Spark Street area, that downtown core is always a good feeling or a good part of Ottawa. What's it going to make to take to make Ottawa feel the way it did before? Or do you think this has changed the city permanently?

SCOTT MAY: Well, that's a good question. You know, if if the weekend past is any indication, all of the restaurants and the people I spoke to in the restaurant industry said it was one of the strongest weekends in two years. And that, of course, ties into the fact that we're now back to 100 percent capacity of bars and restaurants. And, you know, March 1st, we're going to take away the vaccine mandate. So I think people are really, really excited to get back out and start enjoying life again. And we got a taste of this in early December when, you know, just before the coronavirus hit and shut it all back down again. So there's my feeling is there's a huge pent up demand downtown, not always the safest place in the country. At least it was until three weeks ago.

DM: You've got a chance to get back now. So good luck.

SCOTT MAY: Thank you very much for your time. Take care, everybody.

DM: Scott May is the owner and operator of Bar Robo in downtown Ottawa. My next guest has become a bit of a local legend in Ottawa amongst residents who were fed up with the disruption of the protest. Zexi L, along with lawyer Paul Champ, successfully brought an injunction to stop the truck horns from blaring. That was long before the police moved in on Fridays. Actually? Good morning.

ZEXI LI: Good morning. Thanks for having me, Duncan.

DM: What's it like to have quiet streets there this morning?

ZEXI LI: It's honestly surreal, but it's a well, it's a very well welcome sight.

DM: Describe for me, have you been out and about to have a look around?

ZEXI LI: I definitely have. I spent some time this sort of wandering, just marvelling at our unoccupied streets and yeah, it's it's quite the difference. And though we see evidence of what was once there, the community is most definitely banding together and they're already starting cleanup efforts.

DM: Take me back a little bit, though. Last week you had an encounter with a protester. Can you tell us what happened?

ZEXI LI: So that morning they decided to give us an illegal wake up call? What was it? About six fifty eight a.m. it. It had already been a couple of weeks into this whole ordeal, and I, quite frankly, my- any fear. I felt really eclipsed by the level of frustration and quite frankly, rage at the situation. I decided to go down and essentially stand my ground. I just monitored and watched them, and basically I took videos and recorded them because I was like, Honk again, seriously, honk again, and I will have you arrested for contempt because that's what the court order states. And they were not very happy with that. When I started taking pictures of their licence plates and one of these individuals while I was standing on the sidewalk collecting some evidence, he decided to back his truck into me. You know, I very quickly moved out of the way, but I was. I was utterly shocked. Mind you're standing on the sidewalk. But he essentially threatened me with his truck, and I think I just thought that was.

DM: He backed his truck onto the sidewalk.

ZEXI LI: Yeah. Backed his truck, onto the sidewalk where I was standing.

DM: What was that like for you?

ZEXI LI: You know, I was I think I was more shocked and anything, and right after it happened, I decided to call the police because, I, because I, like, that sort of threat of bodily harm, like even though he didn't hit me, he definitely threatened to. And while his cohorts started screaming and shouting that day that the truck hadn't moved in over an hour. Little did they know. I did most definitely capture some evidence of him moving his truck back forward after he had backed up.

DM: You became the plaintiff in the lawsuit, and when you when you chose to do that in a lot of ways, you became the face of the resistance to this protest. How did you feel about about being thrust into that role?

ZEXI LI: So I find it's very important to not call this a protest because really, from its inception, it was designed to be an illegal occupation of our capital city, designed to hold its residents hostage so that the government would stand up to their demands. Could you repeat the question?

DM: Well, I'm just wondering what what it was like, I mean, being the face of the protest, I certainly, you know you, you were in the face of some of those people. But then on the other hand, the folks in Ottawa calling you a hero were saying, you should get the order of Canada.

ZEXI LI: Well, it's I think it was a role I was willing to take on. You know, I didn't really think too much about the positive. I just saw an opportunity to effect positive change and, you know, bring some relief to my community. And really, that was my main focus, and I obviously recognise the backlash that would come from it and has come from it. But I know myself quite well, and I was I knew that I could handle it. And but the overwhelming support from the residents of Ottawa really, really has helped me stay strong through all of this and really give me hope that we can and will make it better.

DM: Who do you think should be held responsible? As for what's happened in your city in the past three weeks?

ZEXI LI: Well, quite frankly, I think there has been an absolute dereliction of duty on very multiple levels, to be honest, because really, the police leadership tells us our municipal leadership failed us, our prevention leadership failed us. And even though the federal government took action in the end, they failed us simply because this lasted over three weeks. That's an impossible reality for me to reconcile.

DM: You heard me ask Scott May whether Ottawa's been changed permanently. I'm going to ask you the same question Do you think the city has changed?

ZEXI LI: I most definitely think the city has changed in the sense that the trust that I think a lot of people once had in our institutions has been completely and utterly broken. And while we most definitely feel safer now, there is little to say, a little to speak to what will be done to prevent this from happening, given that we don't know why this was allowed to happen to begin with. So I think we need a lot of answers before we can really start bringing Ottawa back to, I would say, its former glory in a sense.

DM: Well, Zexi, it's a little quieter there, probably a bit easier to sleep now in the downtown. Thank you very much for joining us.

ZEXI LI: Thank you for having me. Have a wonderful day.

DM: You too. Zexi Li is an Ottawa resident whose case led to an injunction to stop the blaring of the protests horns. It's been a relief for many people who live and work in downtown Ottawa to see the protest finally coming to an end this weekend. Matt Fleury is the Ottawa City councillor for Rideau Vanier, which includes the ByWard Market and Lower Town, two of the neighbourhoods most affected by the protest. Councillor Fleury. Good morning.

MATT FLEURY: Good morning.

DM: How are you feeling this morning?

MATT FLEURY: Relieved. Very relieved, as you've heard from residents and businesses, but vigilant we we've heard of encampments just outside occupant occupiers just outside of the city. And I hope that policing authorities and intelligence authorities continue to to monitor we. We've gone so far over the weekend, which is great, but we don't want to ever go back to to the occupation we've lived over the last 25 days.

DM: You heard Lee put some of the blame at this at the municipal council. Do you accept that?

MATT FLEURY: Absolutely, we we are accountable to residents and our residents did not did not have the quality of life that they they deserve. So there's a lot of questions going forward that will be asked. You imagine that that reflects a lot of the thinking of community groups of business improvement areas, as well as elected officials who have a lot of questions and who are accountable for four decisions or inactions over the last 25 days.

DM: Let's talk about the economic impacts of it all. I mean, for four weeks now, hundreds of people haven't been able to work. The big mall there, the retail centre, the downtown shopping mall it closed on on January 29th hasn't opened since. What's been the economic ramifications of all this?

MATT FLEURY: Well, very significant, not just hundreds of jobs, thousands of jobs, and let me give you one very clear example the retail secto., the retail sector is hundreds of businesses. A 1500 employees work in the retail sector. They've been closed and even today they're closed. They're reopening tomorrow. They've been closed since Saturday at noon on the 28th of January. That's $20 million a week. And you think of the retail centre as kind of a central hub to the local Main Street business retail support. So all of the businesses along Retail Street, all of the businesses in the ByWard Market have been impacted if not closed since the 28th.

DM: The federal government says it's going to give $20 million in relief to Ottawa businesses in that area. Are there other ways that that residents should be supported in the aftermath of this occupation?

MATT FLEURY: Many ways we do need to bring back, I was hearing the conversation we're having was actually a few seconds ago. And it's important to know from my perspective, we have not lost the Ottawa DNA or the Lowertown DNA or the centre town DNA. What we've lost is. That confidence in the the the challenge of being a capital city, and we're going to need to do a lot of work there to really rebuild the confidence and clarify authorities between the federal government and the city of Ottawa,

DM: do you think the downtown core is going to look different? I've seen people floating the idea of shutting it down for cars so that things like this don't happen and make it more walkable in the future. Is that kind of thing on the table for discussion now?

MATT FLEURY: So, yes, I know that you're now interested in it, it is not a new conversation in Ottawa. We've been talking about the street closures in the federal precinct for for some time, and we'll need to continue to do so. We'll need to take action.

DM: Has this sped the conversation up, perhaps?

MATT FLEURY: Absolutely, that's why I was going to say, I don't think that I don't think that you're going to see Wellington Street reopen. It's going to look like a street for the time being, but it's likely going to be converted into a pedestrian plaza. And I think we need to go beyond that. You've seen the impacts of what was a what was thought to be a protest which became an occupation. And as a capital city, we have to be hyper focussed on what that looks like for. How can you live in a capital city as a resident and how as a business owner? Can you be assured that your doors won't be closed because of a protest? And although we're used to hundreds of protests in the capital city yearly this, this is open and we really have to go and understand and plan for and put the right type of urban environment to protect residents and businesses.

DM: I want to ask you about something else. Jim Watson, Ottawa's mayor, wants the vehicles that were seised to be sold to cover costs incurred by the city. What do you think of that idea?

MATT FLEURY: I think that the provincial, federal and municipal government need to work together together in terms of planning for the capital, but also together in terms of cost onto the city. The the senior levels of government have always responded and we've seen that through the pandemic. And obviously there's a unique situation that's that's unfolded over 25 days in Ottawa and that shouldn't be that shouldn't be on the local taxpayers to cover. So in line with the philosophy he you know, the mayor is saying that the sale of those trucks, I think it's a bigger conversation that that's really needed with the federal and provincial government. And we have to make sure that the relief programmes for our businesses is fulsome so that many of the businesses again, we're family day weekend. Today, the occupations ended and they're closed because for a number of reasons. So it's very, very difficult for wages, it's very difficult for businesses. And then there's been a lot of cost, as you've seen on to the city, from policing costs to public works of putting up all those barricades and renting the equipment and so on. And I assume and hope that the federal government particularly will be covering those costs.

DM: Councillor Fleury, we got about a minute or so left, but but bigger picture here. I mean, the protests are gone from your neighbourhood, but there are our convoys and protests in other parts of the country still. I was watching a lot of anger hurled at journalists this weekend in British Columbia. Journalists elsewhere. A lot of anger being hurled at politicians. So let me ask you. I mean, what do you think it's going to take to address all of this anger, this polarisation in the country right now?

MATT FLEURY: Look, I'm a local city councillor, I represent my area, I'm not a professor of sociology. What I what I see is that we have to work together. We have to have conversations. We also have to rebuild. I read a book from a former governor general, David Johnston, who I think is, you know, it's a book to read in high school for all four, for all kids, which is trust and how how as a country, we build trust in our public institutions and in our in our media. And I think there's a deep conversation to have around misinformation and and sources of information, as well as trusting in our public institutions, asking the right questions, being constructive and asking for them to be better, but also trusting in our public institutions unless we have the same facts and unless we trust in our public institutions will continue to circle around this issue.

DM: Well, a lot more to talk about that. Thank you for sharing today.

MATT FLEURY: Thanks for having me on.

DM: Matt Fleury is the Ottawa City councillor for Rito Vanier. Well, coming up after your regional update.

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Bees, it's been shown that they can count. You can teach them to play soccer. There are ants that act as paramedics for other ants. I mean, they are incredible creatures.

DM: In 90 seconds, more on bees. Bees that play soccer, actually. Why they and many other insects are disappearing and why that spells disaster for humans. I'm Duncan McCue and you're listening to The Current.

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The insect apocalypse and what it means for life on Earth

Guest: Oliver Milman

DM: I'm Duncan McCue, and you're listening to The Current. A couple of decades ago, if you took a road trip in Canada, you'd be faced with the immediate need to wash your car. The front grille and the windshield of your vehicle would be covered in tiny insect corpses. These days, most people have no such problem. You'd be looking at a grimy but insect free windshield after the five and a half hour drive from Toronto to Montreal. And if that sounds just fine to you, fewer mosquitoes and moths and flies, it's time to rethink the importance of insects because a world without insects would be dramatically different from the world we know. And according to Oliver Milman, it looks like that's where we're headed. He's an environmental journalist with British newspaper The Guardian. His new book Is The Insect Crisis The Fall of the Tiny Empires That Run the World. Oliver Milman, Good morning.

OLIVER MILMAN: Good morning.

DM: It's pretty good to have you. You've been an environmental journalist for a long time, Oliver. Why write a book about insects specifically?

OLIVER MILMAN: Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, most of the things I write about are around kind of climate change or kind a big kind of charismatic endangered species that we all know about the rhinos, orang-utans the bears of our world. So it was kind of a surprise to me, I suppose, as much as anyone said to be drawn so much to this. But I think there can be evidence of declines and what they mean to us. Struck me as so profound. There was a kind of a slew of studies out 2017, 2018, 2019, just really crystallising what the issue is here with insect declines. They seem to be in freefall in many parts of the world, and the implications for us selfishly are huge each. While we may lose other species and that be considered a terrible shame aesthetically to our planet. The loss of insects is something that is far more dramatic. It's far more catastrophic in terms of our food production. The use of our medicines, the decomposition of our waste. Pretty much everything that holds life together on Earth.

DM: The opening of your book, it's you paint a startling picture of of what a world looks like without insects. Can you describe that world?

OLIVER MILMAN: Yeah, it's a very grim place. You want to live there and indeed, we wouldn't survive there for the very long. The biologist [unintelligible] Wilson estimated, would only last a few months without insects. Essentially, a third of the foods we eat that are pollinated by insects would would shrivel up and and disappear. So you'd be facing mass malnutrition. Many people would be starving around the world. You'd have the lack of insects, such as beetles, to break down waste. So lots more corpses, lots more faeces around in our immediate surrounds. You'd be facing, in many ways, societal unrest, really, because insects are so important to the functioning of our ecosystems, and things would start to break down quite rapidly in our forests, you know, in the countryside and in the urban areas, too. So it's not very pretty place to be. Luckily, I don't think we're going to ever see that because I think insects will outlive us on this planet. The issue is that we are creating a world that is changing the composition of insects. So think less butterflies and fewer bees and more mosquitoes, more cockroaches. We are changing the world around us and getting rid of many of the things we rely upon and many things we love.

DM: You say that you don't think that will see that world, but yet you also describe the decline in insect populations as catastrophic. How far away are we from that potential kind of dystopic future without insects?

OLIVER MILMAN: I mean, certain places in the world, we I mean, the declines are incredible and study in Denmark. 97 per cent drop in just since the 1990s.

DM: 97 percent drop of insects?

OLIVER MILMAN: Yes. When [unintelligible] caught in traps and splattered on on windshields of cars is incredible experiment made by this scientist who's been driving up and down the same stretches of road in Denmark since 1997, every summer, nine times a day and then counts them out of bugs that his windshield. Then he traps them as well around in the countryside and found a 97 percent decline, which is kind of startling. In Germany, three quarters down of trapped insects, a landmark study in 2017 found it's a UN assessment that came out that half a million insect species could be lost to us by the middle of this century. I mean, this is catastrophic losses. Insect numbers, obviously is so large that so many species that they went all go. But as I say, the composition of them will radically alter and and is already happening. These few butterflies, fewer fireflies in certain places in the world due to light pollution say. Yet it's really a crisis that's underway and is unfolding right now.

DM: I want to ask you the reasons why in a few seconds. But but before I do that, the title of your book The Tiny Empires that run the world. How do insects run the world?

OLIVER MILMAN: I mean, that's I mean, it's a great question, I mean, like I say, they I mean most immediate impact we think about is we think about our bellies and when we think about the food we eat. So bees, but also flies and other insects pollinate so much of our food. So about a third of the food we get and it's the colourful stuff. So things like rice and corn, a wind pollinated, but the kind of fruit we like to eat, the very nice vegetables we like to eat, pretty much all pollinated by by insects. So we'd lose the huge amounts of food and nutritious stuff we'd lose as well without them as well. I mean, we'd even be without chocolate because tiny midges pollinate the plant that is used for chocolate. Say, OK,

DM: now you've got my attention or a world without chocolate, I'm worried we'd

OLIVER MILMAN: be without ice cream tubes and cows eat alfalfa, which is pollinated by insects as well, so you'd be left with the vegan stuff.

DM: But how are we going to have to adapt if this trend of decline continues? I mean, what kind of difference will people see on their dinner plates?

OLIVER MILMAN: Yeah. Well, I mean, there is there have been warnings that some parts of the world do face food security issues, especially in poorer developing countries, because those are the places where farming is much closer to people in terms of what they consume. So if in your immediate surroundings there is a pollinator crash and you cannot grow the foods that you eat directly, then then that's going to spell big trouble. I mean, there is one estimate that we're going to have several million more deaths a year around the world because of heart disease and other problems that arise from a lack of nutrition because people simply aren't able to get the foods nutritious foods that pollinators help bring to us. So there is a food security issue, a food diversity issue. There is an issue around medicines as well, which I think is often overlooked. Most insects are a great source of new medicines, and scientists see that as a really exciting avenue to get past antibiotic resistance, for example. So there are several kinds of impacts we really should be thinking about when it comes to our own, our own lives going forward.

DM: They're so incredibly important. Yet we don't. We see them as pests. We don't value them. Why is that?

OLIVER MILMAN: Yeah. Well, I think I think insects have had a bad rap for some time, really. I mean, we call them creepy crawlies. We say people are bugging us. The the the verbiage we use around our everyday lives, we spray anti insect. We don't really appreciate them. You speak to entomologists and it's a complete 180. They are completely enraptured by that beauty about the incredible abilities of bees. It's been shown that they can count so you can teach them to play soccer. They have incredible logistical abilities to travel between plants.

DM: Hang on, hang on. You can teach a bee to play soccer.

OLIVER MILMAN: Yeah, you can. With food rewards, you can teach you to play soccer. There are ants that act as paramedics to other ants. Such is the complexity of their societal systems. I mean, they are incredible creatures, and they perform an amazing job in our environment of replenishing our soils, being food for other creatures. So we're seeing declines of birds in places in Europe, but in some spots in Canada, in the US as well, because those birds don't have enough insects to eat. So you see these problems throughout the food chain, you start hitting animals much bigger than insects in terms of problems once you remove them.

DM: This is the $64000 question why are the insect populations declining?

OLIVER MILMAN: Well, I mean, there's several reasons, but they kind of fall mainly under three broad categories. So you have habitat loss. So we've obviously been converting huge amounts of of land into farmland primarily, but so urban sprawl, highways and industry and so on. So we've chopped down huge amounts of forests and converted fields, not just not just to buildings, but in terms of their diversity. So kind of a meadow of wildflowers, for example, is a slightly different environment. So one that's just a field of soy or corn. I mean, there's just no diversity there. There's nothing there for insects to eat. It's essentially desert for them, so they can't survive in that environment. Only a few can, a few pests can. And obviously that dealt with by farmers. So that's that's one main reason. The other main reason is linked to that, which is pesticide use. So the huge use of chemicals on in agriculture and even in our backyards is is a major killer of insects and non-target insects, too. So the chemicals typically used on crops are aimed at pests, but they wipe out pretty much everything they work out. Butterflies, they wear poppies and the and the insects they don't wipe out, they sent it. They tend to send deranged. I mean, bees, can they have the whole mind scrambled by these these chemicals so they cannot function properly? And then the third reason, which is a growing reason, they say, is climate change. So the bands, the bands in which insects can survive in a changing. For some, that's good news, and mosquitoes range is increasing because if climate change is getting warmer in kind of further than latitude so mosquitoes can spread and therefore disease can spread. That's not great news for us, but for other insects that certain types of Arctic. Bumblebee, for example, like one in four species of bumblebee in North America, are endangered and in danger of slipping out of existence and climate change is a big reason for that. They cannot find food. That temperature is not right for them. So that's that's the other big pressing problem that's obviously escalating in only kind of going to get worse.

DM: Your speciality as a journalist is writing about climate change. What surprised you about how insects are being hit compared to other animals by climate change?

OLIVER MILMAN: Yeah, I mean, I think I had the assumption, and I think obviously to the insects would be able to ride through the climate crisis better than other species. I mean, after all, we've had five great mass extinctions in the planet and insects have survived them all there.

DM: The great, the great survivors.

OLIVER MILMAN: Yeah, they are the great survivors. They they are adaptable. They obviously have huge numbers so they can bounce back quickly if they're not under pressure because they can reproduce very quickly. So there was this assumption they would be able to get through this this period of climate crisis and biodiversity loss, not too badly in shape. But I think more and more research has pointed to the fact that insects are severely affected by climate change. There was one study showing that half of them will lose half or more of their habitat, so that's a huge loss when you think about the range in which insects can can survive in. So yeah, the climate crisis is going to take a big toll on many of us, and that's where that's where our focus is really with climate change. But there is this kind of silent disaster going on in the background when it comes to insects.

DM: Yeah, well, you say, I mean, from a bug's eye view that we've kind of we've created a hellscape for them in terms of the destruction of habitat and the spraying of pesticides. Let me ask you about spraying of pesticides. I mean, Canada hasn't banned neonicotinoids. Europe has. What impact do you see the pesticides having in North America?

OLIVER MILMAN: I mean, it's huge and it's pernicious, and it's going to be very long lasting even if those bans do come in. I mean, there's one estimate the neonicotinoids are 7000 times more toxic to bees than DDT, which is this that infamous chemical that was the subject of this book. Silent Spring by Rachel Carson was found to essentially be killing off bald eagles in in the US before it was banned and the Eagles recovered. And so the very toxic they leach out of plants so that they go into soils into waters, so many animals get affected that way. And the I think the infuriating thing about them is that they're not really effective in terms of what they do. I mean, I speaking to scientists say, well, the peak of the spraying of these chemicals doesn't coincide the peak of the pests. So you have a huge spike in chemical applications on crops where insects are killed all over the place. The actual pests arrival a little later. So it's not really that effective for doing the job that it's supposed to do. There's far, there are far better ways this more holistic ways of farming using nature to actually help keep your farm land more sustainable, using cover crops and so on, rather than let soils wash away and be poisoned. So I mean, there is there is a kind of whole other area we could get into about how farming needs to change. But certainly, if you're an insect, if you live surveying the landscape a lot of the time, you're not seeing much food and you're seeing a lot of poison.

DM: It's a dire picture you're painting. I mean, and when the studies started coming out a couple of years ago, the headlines was insect again. I mean, is an insect apocalypse, is that the right way of framing it scientifically?

OLIVER MILMAN: I mean, scientifically, no. I mean, scientists are obviously very reticent to declare any sort of apocalypse, any kind of biblical language like that. I mean, like I say, there will be insects still, a lot of them will proliferate because of the conditions we're creating. So like I say, mosquitoes ranger is expanding because of what we're doing rather than contracting.

DM: So there will be winners and losers.

OLIVER MILMAN: Yeah, there are winners and losers. Yeah. So cockroaches, mosquitoes...

DM: We're still going to have to put up with cockroaches.

OLIVER MILMAN: Yes, a lot of things. I mean, there's two types of cockroaches that have specialised entirely on [unintelliglbe] on humans. So they rely on us and you'll see that more and more, I guess, is insects adapt to the world we are creating that there are insects that will be able to adapt to our practises, the way we've altered landscapes, the way we grow and store use food, for example. And there are those that won't send a lot of things that we are losing the half days, half a million species that are likely to go down the drain. A lot of things we find kind of beautiful and lovely and useful for us.

DM: And what you're really describing with the decline of insects is that it's also a human emergency. And so there are countries that are starting to acknowledge this. Bavaria in Germany in particular, sticks out in your book. Can you tell us what's happening there in terms of trying to? To reverse or slow down or stop this extinction of insects.

OLIVER MILMAN: Yeah, I mean, there are some moves being taken. Yeah, in Germany, like you mentioned and there and around the world to cut down on light pollution. So light pollution is a big issue for many insects, such as fireflies, for example, because they cannot find mates, they cannot orientate themselves. So that's why I'm saying this pesticide bans, like you say before that's happened to the EU and Germany is kind of further on that. There are kind of some very kind of active save the bees campaigns around the world that they have proved effective. I think people like bees, they kind of instinctively catch on to the idea that we need them and we should have them around. So they've become a quite a focal point for campaigning. And you seeing kind of changes in farming practises and the very like you say towards this more kind of holistic, sustainable types of agriculture rather than this kind of pesticide monoculture that dominates in semi landscapes of Europe and North America in particular

DM: as you look toward the future. One of the things you explore is the possibility that we might be able to invent our way out of this. You know, if we lose the bees, if we lose the pollinators that we might be able to do, invent something else. What are what are scientists working on as possible options?

OLIVER MILMAN: Yes, I mean, there are these kind of very futuristic seeming ideas that are being looked at by scientists. I mean, there's a long running programme at Harvard University in Massachusetts around robotic bees. I spoke to another inventor of a of a drone that can pollinate apple orchards and to replace bees. You have a more kind of labour intensive version of that happening in China, where kind can have armies of people are sent out. They fan out in fields with brushes to pollinate fruits and vegetables.

DM: I'm having a hard time imagining how that can be as efficient as a bunch of bees.

OLIVER MILMAN: Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's exactly right. I mean, a hive of bees contains far more formal bees that you can never muster people to do that. And obviously, there is the issue of the pay for those people, the conditions they live in, how tired you get. I mean, bees and other pollinators provide an incredible service to us for free. And we've rewarded them by by taking away their homes and poisoning them.

DM: You mentioned the Save the Bees campaign, for example. I know that when I go for a walk in my neighbourhood, there are people that are starting to plant milkweed to help the monarchs on their on their journey. If a listener is is hearing this and saying, Yeah, I need to care about the the bugs as much as I care about the rhinos and the whales, what could they do?

OLIVER MILMAN: Yeah, I mean, as you mentioned, milkweed planting has become very popular. The annual migration of monarchs has crashed. The migration from Canada and the US down to central Mexico was one I was lucky enough to witness of the end point in central Mexico. And the scientists there who worried that it will be over in just just a few decades because of climate change and pesticide use and habitat loss. So, yeah, planting a good variety of plants in your yard if you have a yard is is important. Also just the importance of letting go. I mean, a lot of the problems we face in the world, and there are quite a few at the moment require similarly kind of complex solutions or kind of huge efforts required by all of us. But in many respects, insects would just appreciate if we just let things go a bit. You don't have to write your yard of leaves every time. You can let the grass grow a little bit. You can maybe not even have a kind of lawn that's manicured and has nothing else. You could just let wildflowers grow a bit. Insects would love that, and they appreciate the diversity in landscapes.

DM: I bet they would. I will try very hard when I'm sitting in my tent in northern Ontario this summer to just let it go. Just just just let them have at me. It's hard. It's not easy. You've done an extraordinary amount of research. And as I bring this full circle we started off with you painting a picture of what the world might look like without insects. What leaving you with some hope after all the work you've done?

OLIVER MILMAN: I think the hope is that awareness of this has just gone through the roof. I think just in the last few years, really, I mean, you've had these studies come out and scientists now are talking about this publicly entomologists who had these kind of forgotten profession, really they weren't really spoken to or about really in any of these kind of conversations around biodiversity loss or climate change. And now they find themselves not quite for sense, certainly far more prominent than they were. So you're seeing awareness of what insects do for us. Number one, also the consequences of losing them. We've been given a glimpse of that now, and it's not a full picture yet because we don't know that the trends in every country around the world, but we've been getting a glimpse in it. It's not, it's not pretty and it's something that we should do something about. So I think there is some hope there that at least there is some kind of galvanising force behind doing something. You're seeing some some moves in some governments to look at pesticides, to look at farming practises, to look at an urban renewal when you're thinking about green space and not just putting in lawns everywhere. So there are there are green roofs in cities. Is is a good example of that as sort of one in New York City. And so there are some good examples of what's going on, but I don't think they are keep pace with the scale of the crisis as yet. We need a fundamental rethink about the way we do things. Unfortunately, tidying up things around the edges a bit isn't really going to cut it, unfortunately.

DM: Fascinating work. Thank you for joining us, Oliver.

OLIVER MILMAN: Thank you so much.

DM: Oliver Milman is an environmental journalist and the author of The Insect Crisis The Fall of the Tiny Empires that Run the World. It'll be released in North America in March. And if you've noticed a lack of butterflies or bees or midges or mosquitoes moths in your own backyard, or if you're planting milkweed or rewilding your garden to help save the insects, we want to hear from you. Tell us your bug stories. You can write to us at thecurrent@cbc.ca, or get in touch on Twitter. I'd like to see the pictures we are @TheCurrentCBC. And that's our programme for today. Stay tuned to Radio One for q. Bob Mackie is the go to designer for artists like Cher, Elton John and Carol Burnett. After 60 years in the industry, he's published his first book, The Art of Bob Mackie, and he'll joined Tom Power for a career spanning interview to look back on 60 years of costumes and design. Before I let you go this morning, today would have been the 89th birthday of Nina Simone. She was, of course, the high priestess of soul music, and because there's hardly a better way to start a Monday than with a better Nina, I'll leave you with her version of Leonard Cohen's Suzanne. Oh yeah. I'm Duncan McCue in for Matt Galloway Chi miigwech. Thanks for listening to The Current.

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