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The AIH Transcript For February 18, 2022

[hosts]Carol Off, Chris Howden[/hosts]

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden, this is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

CO: Pressing the point. Justin Ling has been reporting on the protests in Ottawa since Day One. And since Day One, he's been reminding Canadians that this demonstration is not ordinary -- and neither is the police response.

CH: Capital gains. A city councillor in Ottawa tells us they're breathing a little easier now that a growing number of streets are free from what they've described as a "dangerous occupation."

CO: Homeward bound. Residents of a B.C. First Nation are returning to their community after flooding banished them in November. But the chief tells us there are still a lot of questions about how the province responded.

CH: Mic drop. Carol is far from the first host to leave the As It Happens studio -- and tonight, one of her soon-to-be-fellow-alumni has a reassuring message from the other side.

CO: Get the lead out. In recent years, bald eagle populations have been booming -- but our guest says those gains could be erased by a proliferation of lead poisoning.

CH: And… short, sharp shark. A rare, translucent-looking deep-water nightmare creature known as a "baby ghost shark" is spotted by a scientist in New Zealand -- and she tells us she was gobsmacked to see it.

CH: As It Happens, the Friday edition. Radio that's surprised they held on to it -- because I would have found it Jaws-dropping.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Ottawa Police Action : Justin Ling, Ottawa Police Action: Councillor Catherine McKenney, Baby Ghost Shark, Tribute to Carol

Ottawa Police Action : Justin Ling

Guest: Justin Ling

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: A shattering]

MAN: Any chance to get out now?

MAN #2: Come on out of the car.

MAN #3: Do not touch that. Turn your vehicle off, do it now.

MAN #2: Turn your vehicle off, do it now, or you're under arrest.

CH: That was the sound in Ottawa today as police smashed the windows of a barricaded truck and arrested the driver. Early this morning, officers began moving in to clear the protest camp that has occupied the core of Canada's national capital for the past three weeks. Then, hour by hour, they closed in and took people away. Justin Ling is an independent journalist who has been covering the convoy since the beginning. We reached him in Ottawa.

CO: Justin, we just heard a fairly dramatic sound bite there, with the police smashing the window of a truck, arresting the driver. But just in general, how would you describe the way the police are doing this operation?

JUSTIN LING: Oh, it is so slow and so methodical, and that's not a bad thing. And that's not necessarily a criticism. You know, I have been in plenty of police operations, crowd control situations, riot policing operations before, and this has got to be the slowest, the most gentle I have ever seen. The only major arrests that I've seen have been incredibly targeted. So the organizers that have been counselling this occupation since Day One. And it's situations where occupiers, protesters, are pushing back and wrestling with officers. They're being pulled out one by one. They're being taken behind the police line, handcuffed. The arresting officer is taking them to a bus nearby. They're getting them on the bus and taken away for processing. It has got to be the most organized, you know, crowd control situation I've ever seen. So it's… it's… it's pretty calm, all things considered.

CO: Yeah. It sounds very Canadian. But, of course, there's assumptions that… that they were stalled, that they weren't progressing because they were meeting resistance. And, of course, the protesters actually saying that they thought the police were going to cross over and join them. What do you… what do you make of those assumptions?

JL: Wilful thinking has been a hallmark of this occupation since Day One. The folks who have occupied Ottawa for the past three weeks genuinely believe that the majority of the country is either with them or about to be with them. And it's because many of them live in an information environment where they don't meet real resistance, right? So when you live in a world where you don't… you don't ever meet resistance for your views, you tend to think everyone agrees with you. And that has been absolutely a hallmark of this. and I have seen it on the streets all day.

CO: Some of the… you mentioned that we've seen a lot of general arrests of dozens of people, but very targeted arrests of those who are the leaders. And I want to ask you about some of them, including Pat King, who was actually a man who was actually putting out a message this morning telling everyone stay in place. We have a contingency. There's a plan. The police know we're going to do this. Everything is under control. Wait for the signal for what we're going to do next. Tell us about Pat King.

JL: [laughing] It was funny. He said, wait for the signal for our real plan. Within a couple of hours, he was saying, take off your underwear, your white shirt, and wave it out your window, so they know you're surrendering and drive away. And within a couple of minutes of that, he was arrested. A Pat King has for years now been extolling this… this kind of viscerally anti-state view that has ranged everything from, you know, kind of tacit Holocaust denialism to entertaining white supremacist conspiracy theories that white people are having their political power purposely deluded by the state. He has been trying for quite some time to… to figure out a vehicle for his anti-government agitating, and this has by far been his most successful operation to date. Never before has he been able to command this many people, and I think he has revelled in it. But, of course, when it came… you know, push came to shove, and the police were, you know, knocking on his car window, it was kind of clear just, you know, where the end of that road really lie.

CO: You tweeted about the efforts of some of the protesters to put their children in between them and the police. Can you tell us what you saw?

JL: Incredibly frustrating. You know, I will say… and this bears underlining. I have been impressed that the vast majority of the people walking around the occupied area have… have, you know, been still non-violent. But there is a contingent of people who are still here with their dogs, with their children, with elderly folks, and they just seem beliv to the fact that they could be in danger. I saw a 12-year-old, you know, being held by his mother standing right in front of a bunch of riot cops with full gear on, with… with a tear gas canister, tear gas launcher in their hands with a gas mask on. It's just wildly dangerous. I actually snapped this morning. I saw a woman just as things were getting kind of physical, as there was fighting and scuffling going on between police officers and protesters, and it looked like things could get hairy. This woman was walking around pushing a stroller. I confess I lost it on her. I said, what are you doing? Get out of here! Luckily, she actually heeded that advice and took off a minute later. But it's just unbelievable what these people are doing with their kids. If you want to stand there and fight for whatever thing you believe in and you're okay with getting arrested, you know, that is on you. But do not put your kids in this. This is a hostile situation. It is clear to me that the vast majority of people here have never been to a protest. Don't understand what… what could happen here. You could really be injured. Your kids could be unsafe. This is just absolutely negligent.

CO: There is a hard core at the Centre, isn't there? People who have actually said that they're willing to die for this cause. What… how… how ugly do you think it might get in the final strokes?

JL: It's hard to say. I heard someone screaming that in a cop's face today. You know, I'm ready to die for this. He was pointing at his head and saying, just shoot me right here, just shoot me if you want to shoot me. It's just unnecessarily bizarrely antagonistic. You know, officers don't want to go there. But there is a contingent of people who think that provoking conflict could really help achieve their political goals. And we know, you know, from… from past statements that some of those people who were arrested in Coutts, Alberta, and alleged… accused of plotting a mass casualty campaign against police officers and civilians. We know that part of their political worldview was to hasten the fall of the state. To basically end our multicultural society. The leader of that movement is still in Ottawa. He's been providing updates all afternoon. I have seen other organizers already hightail it out of Ottawa, saying I'm done. I've already left. Good luck. But I do still worry. There's… there's a couple of figures out there who are clearly interested in using this incident this weekend to further their political aims, that have endorsed violence in the past, and I still worry what the next hours and days may hold if they decide to… to finally act.

CO: All right, we will leave it there. Justin, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

JL: Thanks, Carol.

CH: Justin Ling is an independent reporter. We reached him on the streets of Ottawa.

Ottawa Police Action: Councillor Catherine McKenney

Guest: Catherine McKenney

CH: Catherine McKenney is the City Councillor for the downtown core. We reached them in Ottawa.

CO: Councillor McKenney, what was it like to be out in your community this afternoon?

CATHERINE MCKENNEY: Well, Carol, it was very different than it was the last two Fridays. And I went down to Bank Street with a couple of my colleagues, councillors Leiper and Menard. We just walked up and down Bank, and it was peaceful. When we first got out, there were a few people on the sidewalk that had come out walking around. And by the time we left, a couple of hours later, more people were out. And it just felt cautiously optimistic. And people felt, I think, cautiously safer.

CO: And so, what are you hearing from them? What are… what are their observations about how things are changing?

CM: Well, you know, we can… we see what's happening down on Rideau and Sussex. Of course, you know, I didn't go anywhere near the operation, but we can see what's happening. People could see that up until now, it's been successful. There's, you know, without any violence. You know, just very methodical. The messages I'm getting, the phone calls, the emails really are people feeling today like they're… they're not going to endure another weekend like the last three weekends, where things just got progressively more really dangerous in our city as our residential neighbourhoods at the time were just left to their own in a real state of lawlessness.

CO: How do you think these past few weeks have changed your city?

CM: Oh, the city is going to need time to heal. We're going to have to do that together. I believe that there is a collective loss in the faith of institutions in the city, including, you know, the municipality, including our council, including the federal and provincial government, of course. There will be… there will be a need to heal. But what is still very, very apparent is the faith in each other. I can… I can see it. I can… I can feel it. And we will heal. We'll collectively heal together. But the… you know, that… that… that breakdown in the trust in institutions that are meant to keep you safe, keep our democracy in check, keep our public safety in check really have been shaken. And we're not just going to recover from that. That is going to take some hard work on behalf of all of us.

CO: But you didn't… I don't think you mentioned the police in that. And so, I wonder if you feel that the operation we're seeing now is restoring the confidence or faith in police… in Ottawa police today.

CM: Oh, I think that what people are seeing today certainly is a well-planned and methodical approach that police are taking to restore peace. What people are asking is why it didn't happen two and a half weeks ago? How did this… how did we get here? How… how… you know, how were trucks allowed to come into our city, park themselves and just take over the city? But then, why didn't what we're seeing today happen two and a half weeks ago? And while we appreciate how it's turning out today, so far, certainly there are many, many questions to be answered. This will take a serious inquiry when this is over to understand where the failure points are. Because we can't allow it to happen again. Not just not in this city, but in any city really in… in our country

CO: What we've seen, the images that people will never forget around the world as they watch this, the bouncy castles, the hot tub. Is there any image? Is there one single image that sums up for you what this was like?

CM: The other day, I was out in the middle of it at around 4:30, 5:00. And I guess it was the first time I've been out right in the middle of it when people were travelling home, mostly from work or just travelling about on their street. And it's the image of the fear that I could see in people's eyes as we kind of made eye contact. It was always above a mask. And when people hesitatingly looked at you, made eye contact and to see that fear in people's eyes on their street in the middle of what is a peaceful neighbourhood will stay with me for… forever, I think.

CO: Do you think that fear will dissolve fairly soon? Do you think that quickly it can be recovered?

CM: I think the fear will. You know, even today, out on Bank Street and I've been on Laurier, people I wouldn't say they were jubilant. They were happier. They were cautious about it. But I didn't see fear today. It is really the faith. The faith in those of us who were elected or who were appointed to represent and to protect people. And that… that was a failure. People see that, and there is a reckoning there that has to happen. This is, in the end, a result of, you know, grave inequities [chuckling] across our society and political divisions that have festered for many, many years now and are only getting worse. And this is the result. And we have to not just look at the other side and say, you were wrong. We have to look at ourselves and ask ourselves how we allowed it to get to where it is?

CO: Councillor McKenney, I really appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

CM: Thank you, Carol. I appreciate it, too.

CH: Catherine McKenney is the City Councillor for Ottawa's downtown core. We reached them in Ottawa.

[Music: Spanish guitar]

Baby Ghost Shark

Guest: Brit Finucci

CH: With two simple words, I'm going to plant an earworm so deep into your brain that it may never come out. Baby. Shark. Look, I'm… I'm sorry. But this might help... or make things much worse: imagine the baby shark is translucent, slippery-looking, and just extremely creepy. That's what a team of scientists recently spotted off the coast of New Zealand. It's called a deep water ghost shark or a chimaera. It's rare to see one at all -- but especially to see a baby. Brit Finucci is a scientist at New Zealand's National Institute of Water and Atmospheric Research. She spotted the shark. We reached her in Wellington, New Zealand.

CO: Brit, we hinted in the introduction that this baby ghost shark is a little odd-looking. Can you give us some more details? What does it look like?

BRIT FINUCCI: Well, it's incredibly small, as baby ghost shark name suggests. Fits in the palm of your hand. It's about… about 10 centimetres in length. It's got big, big eyes, big glowing eyes, which it uses to see in a very dark environment. It's got these big, giant fins. It's like basically with puppies and how they have to grow into their feet. chimaeras or ghost sharks have the same thing with their fins, in that when they're just little itty bitty things, they haven't actually grown into their… their fins yet.

CO: Wow! And why is it called ghost? Describe that quality.

BF: It depends on who you ask. I've been told a number of reasons, partly because it could be, you know, that we rarely see these animals. So they kind of, you know, ghost, they appear out of nowhere. Other people think they look quite ghoulish. So ghost-like appearance. I've also been told, too, that the way they swim underwater, they kind of float. I personally think they're actually stunning to see under the water. But again, yeah, they kind of float. So they kind of had a ghost-like appearance. But they're completely harmless. They've… unlike, you know, regular sharks, which have the typical, you know, bitey great white shark teeth, ghost sharks have rabbit teeth, essentially. These tooth plates. So there's no worries if you ever do happen to be in the water with one, it's not going to… it's not going to bite you.

CO: [chuckle] And this… this little baby was just hatched. Is that right?

BF: Yes, it was. So chimaeras or ghost sharks, they lay their young within egg capsules, which lie on the seafloor. The little embryo has a big egg yolk, which it feeds off of as it develops. So, very much like a chicken and a chicken egg. And when the embryo has consumed the egg, probably six to eight months after developing in that egg capsule, it hatches. And as you can see from the image that we had online because that you can actually see inside of it, you can see that… that still that yolk in the belly. So that egg yolk provides the animals with kind of those first few days of nourishment before, so it can get adjusted to its environment and find its own food.

CO: Do you now have this baby shark in captivity?

BF: So the animal actually came to the surface dead. Unfortunately, most animals that are brought up from the deep sea, by the time they reach the surface, they've gone through massive changes in temperature and pressure. So, unfortunately, it did not survive that process. But we have kept the step… the specimen. And once we've taken some genetics and some additional measurements, we will deposit it at the museum, the… our national museum here. I've also… I've already got a few messages from them. I hope you've kept the ghost shark for us! Because it'll be a very valuable specimen to put into collections. And it'll be available for anyone in the future to use it if they want to study ghost sharks.

CO: Why is it valuable?

BF: It's incredibly difficult to come across some of these little go sharks, especially in the deep sea. Ghost sharks are very cryptic. They're very hard to find. Deep water research is very expensive, so we don't get out very much. And what we do know about a lot of the deepwater species comes from our adults. So adults can be a metre, a metre and a half in length. And these are the ones we see so very rarely come across little juveniles. And we do know that juveniles can be quite different from adults. They can live in different areas, they can live at different depths, they eat different foods. And sometimes, they even just look very different. We have… we have one ghost shark here called the giant chimaera. And as juveniles, they're nearly pure black in colour.

CO: Wow!

BF: But when they're adults, which get to like two metres long, massive animals, they're actually like a purple colour, and they've got big, cartoonish-looking eyes, and they just look completely different. So having this little juvenile, once we figure out what species it is, will help us kind of fill in some of the biological knowledge gaps for the species.

CO: When you first spotted this, because you didn't see it in the… underwater, you saw it on the water. What was it like for you when you… when you saw that, and you knew what you were looking at?

BF: I got very excited. I can't say the same about my colleagues. We have a lot of arguments over which fish is best. You know, a lot of people are not entirely impressed by ghost sharks, but I am. I saw it, spotted it and was like, yeah, I've got to grab that. That's something different. That's something we don't see very often. I… yeah, I took it to my bench, started taking the photos and the images you saw online. And, yeah, I had a great little time with it. I got super excited.

CO: And now you're getting calls from around the world about your discovery [BF chuckles] because the picture is just so amazing. It's just… we're going to put it up online that people can see it for themselves. But… but… so obviously, more people are interested in this [chuckling] than those you had in the boat with you.

BF: Yeah, I'm incredibly surprised, but it is great. It's… these are very data-poor species. We know very little about them. And they are often forgotten when they do sit within a group of fish that include whale sharks and white sharks. So it is great that ghost sharks are getting some attention. I'm finding it absolutely hilarious how much attention this got, [CO chuckles] but it's… it's great. And it's a great little story that kind of… it's very different from all the doom and gloom news that we hear about regularly.

CO: Absolutely, yes. We appreciate that. Brit, it's great to talk to you. Thank you.

BF: Thank you.

CO: Bye.

BF: Okay, bye-bye.

CH: Brit Finucci is a scientist at New Zealand's National Institute of Water and Atmospheric Research. She was in Wellington. And you can find more on that story on our webpage at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient]

Tribute to Carol

CH: Okay, okay. Maybe we've been a bit hard on Carol lately. All the poking fun and the Axe Body Spray and the quizzes. But in our defence, she does keep acing them! And besides, there's a precedent for razzing outgoing As It Happens hosts. I did it to my own predecessor Jeff Douglas, when I wrote a script for his final show in 2019, and included this throw:

SOUNDCLIP

JEFF DOUGLAS: We have reached the chef in the Welsh village of [laughing] HHLan-vire-puchh-hhwin-gihh-gaw-gare-ucch-win-drob-uhh-Hlan-t'Silly-aw-gaw-gaw-GAWCH. [CO laughs] I’m not sure --

CO: But this is a name you had to once give, though?

JD: Yes.

CO: This… this Welsh village, you have --

JD: I think I got it that time.

CO: You… no one called to say you didn’t.

JD: HHLan-vire-puchh-hhwin.

CO: But, of course, for me, what’s been so much fun over these years is that the listeners don't know that I turn off my mic and laugh while you're trying to pronounce these things [JD laughs] because I know how much you're struggling with them. And it gives me such a delight.

JD: I think at times you've actually crawled into a ball in the corner laughing one particular time. That was… that was good.

CO: Tears running down my cheeks.

JD: It's good to have that support when you’re live on the radio. [CO chuckles]

CH: Look, I'm not going anywhere, so no one's allowed to judge me on my pronunciation of HHLan-vire-puchh-hhwin-gihh-gaw-gare-ucch-win-drob-uhh-Hlan-t'Silly-aw-gaw-gaw-GAWCH. But what the As It Happens team can -- and did -- do is ask Jeff to weigh in on Carol's departure. Because he knows her well -- and he knows a little something about being in her shoes right now. So, Carol, here's Jeff’s message to you.

JD: Hey there, Carol. How are you? It's Jeff Douglas. Um, [smacks lips] I don't know if you remember me or not? You and I worked together for a while. I think it was… nine years, nine and a bit there. There is so much I could say, so many stories I could tell. But don't worry, your secret is safe with me. I do wish, though, that everyone who listened could experience the full range of your subversive wit. [laughing] We’ll just leave it at that. But you and I signed on to As It Happens together for the better part of ten years, and a lot can happen in that span of time. And particularly at the point of life that I was at when… when I was working on As It Happens. And I am just so grateful for your friendship. I'm grateful that you took me into your confidence, and that you opened your friendship to me, that you shared it with me. That you shared your values with me. They have deeply influenced me, Carol. And most of all, I'm so grateful that you showed me and you taught me that kindness and empathy are okay to bring to this job. I will be forever grateful to you for that. As a co-worker, as a listener, but also as a friend. I love you, CO.

CH: Jeff Douglas. What do you think, Carol?

CO: [sigh] Okay, um… I just… okay. Thank you, Jeff. That was lovely. I’m just trying to recover. I wasn’t expecting this just now. And so, yeah. That’s beautiful. Um, 10 years. You know a lot. [laughing] And I’m glad you didn’t betray any of the knowledge you have. But, of course, Chris, you know even more, don’t you? And so --

CH: I do!

CO: Yeah. And this is frightening.

CH: That’s why you pay me.

CO: I know! Those percentages of my income have really helped both of you, haven't they? [both laugh] Jeff, that was lovely. Thank you so much.

CH: Thanks, Jeff. Jeff is now the host of CBC Radio's Mainstreet in Halifax. If you're in Nova Scotia, you can catch his interview with Carol next Tuesday. And Carol's last show here is a week from today. That's when we'll send Carol off in-style [CO laughs] with a special edition of As It Happens. We're celebrating her career and her almost 16 years here on the show. Margaret Atwood, Tanya Talaga, and Romeo Dallaire are just a few of the people dropping in to say farewell. And we'll also hear from you, the listeners. That's As It Happens, the Carol Off edition, next Friday.

[Music: Elevator]

Part 2: B.C. FN Flooding Report, Eagles Lead Poisoning

B.C. FN Flooding Report

Guest: Chief Arnold Lampreau

CH: It's been a long wait for members of British Columbia's Shackan First Nation. After more than 90 days away from their homes, people have now been allowed to slowly return. They were forced out of their homes last November after the catastrophic flooding in B.C., which was especially bad in their small community. Arnold Lampreau is the chief of the Shackan Indian Band. We reached him in Merritt, B.C.

CO: Chief Lampreau, as people in your community are finally heading home, what are… what are their thoughts? What are their feelings?

CHIEF ARNOLD LAMPREAU: Well, a lot of them are quite thrilled and happy about going home, but they're also, you know, kind of sad or, you know, some of them are that were at the pipeline camp have built, you know, rapports with some of the staff and whatever. A little sad about leaving there and likewise with the staff. And I'm pretty sure that wherever they were staying, you know, they're sad about leaving, but also really happy about going home, you know? That for the north side. And so, we still have some work to be done for the south side. Maybe we might be able to return there, and we won't know until probably after Frechette.

CO: So how many people have actually been able to return at this point?

CAL: Probably about 30 or so. Thirty of the people.

CO: Right. And what are they… are the people… what are they finding when they come home? What is… what's the state of home?

CAL: And so in the last two months, our band office and the council and staff of the… of the office have been lining up inspections like through First Nations Health Authority, NS, plumbers, the list goes on, right, to make sure that everything is checked and it's safe to go back home. Also, the inspectors are checking out appliances, checking out washing machines, hot water tanks and all of that. Those things have to be put in place.

CO: What about their wells and their well water?

CAL: So the community water is what they're relying on right now. And so that was recommissioned, flushed, and the water samples were taken. Everything's been checked out good. And… and so the hydrants are all re-maintained. And so all of that's been good.

CO: And what about the parts of the community that have not been recovered? That are still damaged? Can you describe what it's like over there?

CAL: Basically, they haven't been touched at all since the flood, other than the winterizing. We managed to get over there, and that's the side of the river where I live, and there's seven houses on that side that we won't be able to access yet.

CO: Let's just go back to when it happened. This was three months ago. Catastrophic floods that you had there that actually changed the course of the river. And what did it do? Just describe, can you remind people of what happened during that flood?

CAL: So on the 14th of November, you know, this is when the rains really, really started to come down. And, of course, on the 15th, the river was rising so fast in the morning that, you know, by the time we realized that, you know, this is... this is unusual and I've never seen the water rise that quick, sprung into action and started knocking on doors and saying, you know what? I think that we need to evacuate because there's going to be something that's going to go wrong. That… that was the conversation we had with the band administrator and the council. So we moved ahead and called an order.

CO: And that's when everyone got out as best they could?

CAL: Yeah, yeah. And, for instance, the ones that did stay behind for a couple of weeks thinking that, you know, we'll be back, you know, we ended up having to travel around two and a half hours one way through mountains and that and switchbacks to get those people out.

CO: Wow! Just extraordinary. And just at the time of the floods, you criticized the British Columbia government for failing to assist your community. And did your complaints do any good? Did you get some assistance after that?

CAL: Well, yeah, you know, and… but the thing is, is the process that they had in place, I don't think that… you know, they still haven't reached out to a few of us. They haven't, you know, like when we signed up for the EOS and ESS out of Kamloops, they still haven't phoned us, you know, to see if we need any assistance or not. You know, and so basically, the help that I'm getting now is through either to MOTY, right, which is the Ministry of Transportation or FLNRO, which is like forestry and that type of stuff.

CO: But just so I understand. But… but the Emergency Management BC, you haven't heard from them at all?

CAL: No.

CO: What do you make of that?

CAL: To me, you know, and it's a pile of bureaucracy. And the thing is… is, you know, when we talk about truth and reconciliation right now, that process that was in place, you know, we should all be treated fairly. Everybody should get fair treatment and the same treatment. Not individuals that come in after the fact and mobilize and given housing and food. You know, and I still remember, you know, talking to my… some of my members, you know, that… that did actually get accommodation, you know? And they ended up over in Salmon Arm or down in Kelowna. And this is… they were up at 6:30 in the morning, when I woke him up. They finally get to Merritt at around 8:30, 9:00, and then they're moved again from Merritt to Kamloops. You know, and they're sitting there until 5:00 or 6:00 at night. And, you know, and in the p.m., you know? And they still haven't got a place to go. And then they get moved from there. They're told, well, you got to get on… you have to go to Salmon Arm. And then when they get to Salmon Arm, well, there's no places there. So they get moved to Kelowna or… or Vernon.

CO: Wow! Is this the same people? Because there's… your community was not the only one obviously affected by that flooding. And so, did the non-Indigenous communities, did they get the assistance? Was it… were they treated differently?

CAL: It seems like it because they came in on buses after us. And then they just jumped back on the buses and were gone, you know? And at the end of the evening there, my people are still sitting in the cold, you know, skating arena, waiting for assistance, and which never came. You know, and I said to the one person there, I said, so how long do we have to sit here? Some of my people don't have cell phones. Some of them don't have cars. How long are they going to be sitting here waiting? And they said, well, it could be up to two days. And I said, you know how cold it is in there?

CO: Hmmm, just extraordinary.

CAL: I said, that's… you know, and that's… that's the places where they put our people because there was so many people coming and going, and it was just chaotic, yeah.

CO: Chief Lampreau, we will stay in touch and see how things develop. And… but for now, I really appreciate getting an update on the story there. Thank you so much.

CAL: Thank you very much, and I'm very thankful to the Creator for allowing our people to come back home.

CO: All right, thank you.

CAL: Yeah.

CH: Arnold Lampreau is the chief of the Shackan Indian Band. We reached him in Merritt, BC.

[Music: Ambient]

Figure Skating Doping

CH: Elizabeth Manley says the International Olympic Committee should feel ashamed today. The former figure skater is talking about the way the IOC has handled the doping controversy around Russian figure skater Kamila Valieva. The IOC allowed her to compete even after the International Testing Agency confirmed that the 15-year-old had tested positive for a banned substance. Kamila Valieva was favoured to win gold, but she stumbled, fell, placed fourth and left the competition in tears. Elizabeth Manley won the silver medal for Canada in women's figure skating at the 1988 Games in Calgary. She didn't watch this week's performances. She refuses to watch any of the Beijing Olympics because of her loss of respect for the IOC. And today, she talked about the importance of clean sport.

SOUNDCLIP

ELIZABETH MANLEY: You know, I'm… I'm a skater, an Olympian that has never really been very vocal or very hard with my statements and that. But, you know, it just got to a point where if we as Olympians or Olympic medallists don't stand up for clean sport… and… and, you know, when you walk into an opening ceremonies for the Olympic Games, you take an oath. And part of that oath is clean sport. And this has just been a continuous, you know, situation that the sporting world has dealt with for… for multiple Olympics now with the Russian Federations. And, you know, it's just… it's been very frustrating to… to be a spectator, to watch what's happening and just, you know, seeing once again, Russia just getting a slap on the hand and allowing them to still compete. My heart goes out to the girl, though. My heart really does.

ISMAILA ALFA: How well do you think the Olympic Committee is doing in protecting her?

EM: You know, I think they went the wrong way. I'll be very honest. I feel that that girl should have been put on a plane, taken home, put into some therapy or treatments. I feel her sticking out for an entire week on the ice, being the centre of an… you know, an international scandal is really damaging to her mentally. And, you know, the whole thing is I've never actually blamed her. In all my statements, you know, I've supported her because I remember being 15. And I remember trusting everything my coaches were either giving me or telling me. And, you know, to follow the rules and to be clean and so forth. I remember how sick I was in Calgary, and I wasn't even allowed to take a HALLS candy. And, you know, where… where I'm trying to put a stand is this coach that she has has had numerous accusations for years about this. And instead of penalizing this young girl, we should be looking further. You know, where is this coming from? The coaching, the Federation, everything.

CH: Elizabeth Manley, speaking with the CBC's Ismaila Alfa on Metro Morning today.

[Music: Horns!!!!!]

Eagles Lead Poisoning

Guest: Dr. Vince Slabe

CH: After nearly going extinct because of DDT in the environment, bald eagles have made a huge comeback. Only to face a new threat from a different toxin: lead. A recent study suggests that vast numbers of bald eagles are infected with lead poisoning, and it is killing them. Which has created a concerning slump in population growth. Dr. Vince Slabe is a Research Wildlife Biologist at Conservation Science Global. He's the lead author of the study, and we reached him in Bozeman, Montana.

CO: Vince, can you give us an idea of how lead poisoning is affecting the Eagles that you studied?

DR. VICE SLABE: Lead poisoning is affecting eagles by entering their bodies through ingestion of lead. Our primary findings from our research show that almost 50 per cent of these birds are ingesting lead multiple times throughout their life. And they are doing this at a continental scale. Our data is from 38 states throughout the U.S., and from Alaska down to Florida, from Maine and to California. What we are seeing, additionally, is that lead is affecting the population growth rates of both of these species.

CO: But could you just tell us the effect that it has? Ingesting this lead, what… what do you see in the way of the symptoms or the effects that that has?

DVS: Lead can affect nearly every system of the eagle’s body. After lead is ingested, it enters the digestive system. And then from there, enters the circulatory system and eventually is stored in the skeleton. Some of the common side effects that birds can show from lead poisoning include loss of locomotion, and this means that not only can they not fly, but in many cases, they cannot move. Another thing that it can affect is their digestive system. One of the things that happens is called crop stasis. And what happens when this happens is the eagle ingests the food, and it enters their crop, but as the bird becomes poisoned, they are unable to move the food from the crop to the rest of their body, which basically makes them starve to death.

CO: The source of the lead is from the ammunition from hunters who kill animals that they then scavenge, right?

DVS: Our research shows correlations between an eagle’s feeding behaviour and the time of year that it is poisoned. During the summer months, both bald and golden eagles focus on live prey. Bald eagles oftentimes focus on fish and other aquatic mammals and turtles, and other amphibians. And they focus on a lot of animals that are associated with wetlands. And golden eagles are an upland bird, and they focus on small mammals, such as squirrels and rabbits. Now, fast forward through the breeding season, through the summer months, and we enter into the winter months. And a lot of these species that they are dependent on during the summer are no longer there. So these birds turn to scavenging. And they're scavenging during a time of year that also occurs during hunting seasons, when carcasses and gut piles are left on the landscape that contain lead ammunition.

CO: Have there not been efforts, though, to… to outlaw or to limit the lead that hunters are using in the United States?

DVS: There has been a law passed in California that outlaws the use of lead ammunition. However, as a member of the hunting community myself, I did witness a lot of blowback from that. And a lot of… a lot of contentious reactions in the hunting community from a law being passed at the state level. What I have found is that this message is best communicated to hunters in a very clear fashion. And that previous research has shown a lot of voluntary switch from lead ammunition to non-lead ammunition. The simple fact of the matter is is that most hunters are not aware of this issue. They are not aware that lead is staying in gut piles on the landscape after they drag their animal back home. So, for instance, there is a program in Arizona that shows up to 88 per cent participation from hunters voluntarily switching from lead to non-lead. And the hunting community is an amazing group of conservationists. Many victories in wildlife management, many victories in conservation, have come as a result of the efforts of hunting groups. And for that reason, I truly believe that the message for this is communication instead of legislation. And from that, we can empower hunters to… to use an ammunition that is not poisonous. And from this perspective, hunters are the solution to this problem.

CO: And just to clarify that lead bullets, they fragment, right? So what's the alternative? What are you suggesting or saying that the hunters should be using in the way of ammunition?

DVS: Great question. Lead bullets are designed to fragment upon impact. That is the method by which they are lethal in harvesting game. One form of an alternative ammunition is copper. Copper is designed to have high retention rates. Lead bullets can have 40 per cent, 30 per cent, 40 per cent loss of mass as it passes through its target. Copper ammunition is designed to… to expand, but not to fragment. Copper ammunition has up to 95 per cent retention rates, and is much less poisonous as a medal to eagles and other scavengers.

CO: Just finally, why don't the hunters take the carcases and the gut piles with them? Why don't they clean that up?

DVS: Well, that's a great question. The reason why they don't clean it up is they leave it out in the landscape, and they are familiar with the fact that scavengers will take care of that gut pile for them. From that same perspective, a gut pile is highly nutritious for eagles and other scavenging birds and mammals and lots of other species that attend a carcass or a gut pile. I have participated in some research projects that… where we have placed cameras on gut piles and carcases. And it is amazing to see the amount of animals that visit that carcass, and it also is amazing at the quickness with which this carcass disappears off of the landscape.

CO: But the gut pile is poison, so this is not a good thing, right?

DVS: Exactly. So in the case of lead, the gut pile is poison. And if we could use an alternative ammunition that is… that is not toxic, that is not a neurotoxin, that is not a poison to animals, and we can have these gut piles be clean. That is the ideal situation.

CO: All right. Vince, we'll leave it there. And I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

DVS: Thanks for the call.

CH: Dr. Vince Slabe is a research wildlife biologist at Conservation Science Global and the lead author of a study about lead poisoning in bald eagles. We reached him in Bozeman, Montana.

[Music: Ambient]

Part 3: Feature: The Naked Don't Fear the Water

Feature: The Naked Don't Fear the Water

Guest: Matthieu Aikins

CH: It is a journey that countless thousands of men, women, and children make each year. A journey that kills many of those who attempt it. That's why reaching Europe by what's known as the smugglers' road isn't a path people choose. It's one they're forced into. By violence, persecution, and poverty. And by the ever-present promise of a better life -- somewhere else. But Matthieu Aikins had a life somewhere else. Mr. Aikins is a New York Times Magazine contributor and Type Media Center fellow. And as a Canadian-born journalist, he's free to travel pretty much anywhere he wants. So when he decided to attempt the trip to Europe alongside a young Afghan driver and translator he calls Omar, he assumed a new identity to do it. Matthieu became Habib. He mailed his passport to a friend and wiped his phone. And in 2016, he and Omar set out from Kabul. Six years later, his book about their underground journey is here. And it shines a vital light on that perilous path -- and on a system that suggests any number of countries might be willing to grant you asylum if only you can get to them first. The Naked Don't Fear the Water is published by Harper Collins. We reached Mr. Aikins in New York City.

CO: Matthieu, welcome to As It Happens.

MATTHIEU AIKINS: Thanks for having me.

CO: This is a story, it’s a journey of you and Omar. And… but it really is much the story about Omar. Tell us about how you met him and how you started to work with him?

MA: Well, Omar and I first met in the same place that you met your fixer that you've written about, in the Mustafa Hotel in Kabul. And he was one of the first friends that I had in the country. He was a former interpreter with the U.S. and Canadian military who wanted to work with journalists. And over the years, as I was living in Kabul, we became close friends.

CO: Why did he want to leave Afghanistan?

MA: Well, like many Afghans, he realized that he could have a better chance at finding, you know, a job and having a decent place to raise children if he left his impoverished, war-torn country. But it was really the deterioration of the situation in the country that caused him to lose hope in the future there. You know, he and his family had spent their childhood in exile in Iran and Pakistan, and they had initially come back in 2001 full of hope for the future. You know, thinking that the West is going to stick by its promises to bring peace and democracy to Afghanistan. But as time went on, that became increasingly less plausible. He applied for a visa to emigrate to the U.S. that the U.S. government made available to employees in Iraq and Afghanistan, but he was rejected because he didn't have all the paperwork. And so, when that happened, this 2016, he decided to take the smugglers’ road to Europe.

CO: What was his reaction when you proposed that you would go undercover with him and head out on the smugglers’ road together?

MA: Well, we'd been on many an adventure before inside the country, and we’d come to trust each other, so he was up for it. I mean, it was going to be a difficult trip if he went by himself. And I think having someone else along, especially someone with resources and connections, would help him. But he also understood how difficult it would be, especially since I would have to go undercover as an Afghan refugee myself. That's the only way I could do it, given the risk of being kidnapped as a Westerner or arrested and separated.

CO: Exactly. So you weren't going as a journalist walking beside him with your notebook and… and pen out recording this. You were going to go with him, you did go with him, as Habib, right?

MA: Yes, I had to assume the identity of an Afghan myself. And I was able to do that because I've learned to speak Persian after living for so many years in the country. And I also look Afghan. My mother is of Japanese ancestry, but I look quite plausibly Afghan.

CO: And you speak the language that well that you could disguise yourself?

MA: You know, I've been working there 13 years now, so I do speak it pretty fluently. And there's a lot of different accents in Afghanistan and different languages, so it makes it a bit easier to pass.

CO: Did the two of you… did you and Omar consider what your presence might do? I mean, that you were in some ways it would be a help to him, but it actually could be hurtful, right?

MA: Yeah, especially at the beginning when we were in the borderlands, where there was quite a lot of danger from criminals and gangs affiliated with the Taliban. So revealing myself there as a Westerner would have actually just increased our danger.

CO: And just tell us a bit about this is 2016 that you set out. A time… well, it's been said that it was the largest movement of humanity since the Second World War. There were huge numbers of people, millions of people, on the move. Just give us a sense of the context in which you and Omar set out on your journey?

MA: In 2015, as you know, there was increasing pressure, especially from the Syrian war, you know, large populations of refugees building up outside of Europe. You had this sudden movement of people and crossing little… in little rubber boats to the Greek islands and then walking through the Balkans. And the border basically buckled under the weight of humanity. What I describe in the book as almost a miracle, you know, a suspension of the laws of nature. And so this is the moment where Omar realized that, you know, this is maybe his chance to… as is his family, who also eventually joined this migration.

CO: Omar was doing it for his life, right? You were doing it for a story. What were your ethical considerations?

MA: It was definitely a tricky ethical line that I had to walk. You know, any kind of work of undercover journalism involves an element of deceit. I thought this was the only way… I knew this was the only way to get the story, and I thought it was one worth telling. But I wasn't prepared, I think, for how involved I would get. You know, as a… as an outside observer, you try not to interfere in your subjects’ lives. That's not possible when you're travelling with your friend. You're both risking your lives as smugglers. You're trying to help him get to a destination, and you're actually breaking laws to do so. Because refugees generally have to cross borders with smugglers illegally because they're not allowed to travel. You know, Afghans have the worst passport in the world when it comes to visa-free travel. And then I got sucked into that journey of not just Omar, but his family, of other refugees and along the way. And, ultimately, it was a decision you had to make much more as a human being than a journalist. You know, what you're willing to do to help people?

CO: There are a number of times in the book, in your story, where you are trying to urge Omar to make a decision, to persuade him in a direction. Other times, when he has to take the lead. How difficult was it? Who was… who was making the decisions about things? And what influence did you have on the decisions Omar made?

MA: Well, I was trying to let him make the decisions. I was trying to follow him. So, for example, he wanted to fly directly to Turkey, which is more expensive but safer. I was totally fine with that. Of course, then the Turkish coup, the attempted coup in Turkey happened, and he wasn't able to do that. So we had to go through the desert. I was trying to stay in the back seat. But obviously, I… I knew a lot about the places we are going to, and we talked it over. And it wasn't possible to just sit back and be an observer at times. And, you know, one of the things I try to do in the book is examine my own reactions, my own biases. Try to interrogate my own position, which is definitely a privileged one. You know, I… I was always conscious of the fact that I could make calls and somehow extricate myself from these situations in a way that he couldn't. So I try to deal with that honestly in the book.

CO: Did your family know you were doing this?

MA: My wonderful, long-suffering family has been supporting me now for 13 years doing this kind of work. And they did know that I was going to do a trip like this. Not the details, but I had to explain to them that I would be underground for a period of months, you know? And I wouldn't really be able to be contacted. You know, I didn't have access to my phone or my email account. I did have a system for passing messages, you know, to a couple of people, and a sort of safety net set up so that if something bad happened, at least they would know about it. But it was definitely a long period of silence. And I know that must've worried them greatly. And it’s a cost that, you know, families of people who do this kind of stuff have to bear.

CO: You're listening to As It Happens. And I'm speaking with Matthieu Aikins about his extraordinary new book, The Naked Don't Fear the Water, and it's about an underground journey with Afghan refugees that Matthieu takes with his friend Omar. And the… you had to sort of go by different routes and arrive and meet up in Turkey, as you just mentioned. And then, from there, it became having to figure out how are you going to get to Europe? That was the destination. So, what… what options did you have when you considered… [chuckle] because there are not many. And they're all pretty difficult and awful. What… what were the considerations?

MA: So we had arrived at a moment when the borders had slammed shut again. And after all this talk about welcoming refugees and the outpouring of grief that followed the drowning of a young Syrian Kurdish boy, Alan Kurdi, Europe had actually closed its frontiers. They had, you know, strengthened these detention camps on the islands where refugees were now kept without being able to move onward for months. In very awful conditions. They built new fences on the border. So we had to find a way in through Fortress Europe. And ultimately, Omar decided that he wanted to risk the little boats. So we found a smuggler who would put us on to one of these rafts and cross in the middle of the night.

CO: Cross the Mediterranean, which is regarded now as the largest graveyard in Europe.

MA: Yeah, I mean, thousands of people have drowned there. We don't even know the true number because very often, these voyages happen at night, and there's no survivors. There's no one to tell the tale.

CO: Were you thinking about that as you crossed? Were you thinking about what was beneath you?

MA: I was. I was thinking of all the people who had set out with hope in their hearts, and who had lost their lives. And also, I was thinking about the terror of the people around me. You know, I’m from Nova Scotia. I grew up on the water sailing, and it was a scary trip, of course. We’re 40 of us crammed into a rubber raft. But I knew the ocean, whereas people around me, including Omar, they'd never been to sea before. Some of them have never seen the ocean before. So the terror that people go through is just incredibly intense. And, you know, when they get to dry land on the other side, they're… they’re… it's like they've been reborn. You know, given a second chance.

CO: I have to say we have interviewed many people who were involved at that crossing or helped those. And I… your book gives the… the most stunning description of what it would be like to be on one of those rafts. There's another one I want to… you mentioned Alan Kurdi, the little boy who was found drowned and photographed in Turkey after his inflatable boat had capsized. And we spoke with his aunt, as you know, Tima Kurdy is… lives in Vancouver. And we spoke with her. I just want to play a bit of that and get you to react. Here's Tima Kurdy.

SOUNDCLIP

TIMA KURDY: I tried everything, everything. But from the Day One, both of brother, they know it's not going to work because I am in the phone with him everything… every day. We're going to submit it. It’s, oh, I'm asking the government to… to help. I'm doing everything possible. But I'm sorry. Go get your ID and example. They will go and come back to me. No, they don't issue us this. Go to register with the U.N. They go to the U.N., I email the U.N., I'm trying to bring them. Please help them. Give them this. They always say no. So my family knows the right from January, February, early 2015, they know. And it's impossible to come.

CO: That’s Tima Kurdi, Alan Kurdi’s aunt, explaining all the things that went into the decision that they would take that enormous risk that you also took in crossing the Mediterranean. What does that say to you when you hear Tima Kurdi?

MA: I mean, I think of, you know, Omar's experience, you know, applying for a visa saying that he had served four years with the American Special Forces, he had become an interpreter with the Canadian Forces in Kandahar and just getting the bureaucratic run-around. And eventually, deciding that he’s going to risk his life, put himself in the hands of criminals, cross all these borders. And that's what's happening right now. You know, to all these people, for example, from Afghanistan who are… who are trapped in third countries or in Afghanistan. You know, they're looking for a way out. They want to leave with some kind of dignity, some kind of safety. But if they can't find a way, then they're going to risk their lives.

CO: And you mentioned criminals. These are the network of people who help for a great deal of money, people to make these journeys. But do you… what you encountered, what you describe is that there’s a range of people who help those who are crossing, right? The smugglers come in different categories. Did you find that some were… were actually trying to help?

MA: The smugglers are doing it for money. And some of them are… you know, have better customer service or are more decent people than others. And if you can find a good smuggler, then you're lucky because every… almost every refugee needs a smuggler to… to leave, to escape, because their movement is criminalized. And some smugglers are exploitative. And it's really the situation at the border that gives them the ability to exploit people and profit off them. It's actually, you know, smugglers aren't the problem. They're created by borders. The more walls that you build, the more cops that you hire to patrol them, the more brutal you are IN keeping people out of these frontiers, the more incentive there's going to be to pay for someone who's going to be able to get you across it. So borders and smugglers, they all kind of exist as part of one phenomena.

CO: So you made this crossing, and you ended up in Lesbos. We have done a number of interviews from there, the Greek island where so many refugees end up. And the Moria camp, which is… well, on a scale of one to 10 of all the places the refugees talk about as being bad. Where would Moria be on your list?

MA: For people in that area, it was number 10. You know, the worst. It was the place that we absolutely didn't want to go, the largest, most violent camp that had just burned to the ground in a fire the week before. And we, unfortunately, ended up going to that camp against our will. We were sent, you know, by the smuggler, and we ended up in the worst camp.

CO: What was it like?

MA: You know, this is a camp that was built for, you know, 1,000 or so people. There were already 5,000 people living there because the more permanent structures had burnt down. They were now in little camping tents in the mud. You can imagine what it's like for families or for elderlies not to have any kind of privacy. You know, the bathrooms are… are atrocious. People are lining up for hours to wait for food, which is these meagre, you know, often rotten rations. So you can understand why fights break out. It’s dehumanizing. And there's this great book by a Kurdish-Iranian author, Behrouz Boochani, where he writes about the camp in Manus, in the South Pacific. It’s an Australian camp for asylum seekers. And he writes about, you know, how the greatest achievement of this place might be to turn ordinary human beings against each other. And that's what we saw in Moria.

CO: He also… Behrouz Boochani, in that, his telling of it, he refers to the system he encountered as one that tortures people. And we spoke with him in 2019 from Manus Island. I just want to play a bit of what he had to tell us.

SOUNDCLIP

BEHROUZ BOOCHANI: So when I say torture, mainly, I mean the humiliation. You know, when a system treating you in a way to take your identity, take your humanity, and ready to assume just a number and take your individuality, I think, it is a big torture. When you are living in an indefinite detention, and you don't know how many years you should live in a situation like this, how many years it will take when you get the freedom, when you get off of this island. And when you think, and when you believe, and it is true that you are an innocent person, just you seek asylum and you committed no crime, and they keep you in this indefinite detention for six years. And they are treating you like a terrorist, like a criminal, while you are only a simple person like other people around the world. I think it is a big torture.

CO: That's Behrouz Boochani speaking to us in 2019 from Manus Island and said, just when you a simple person in… in this environment, it is torture. Does that word torture ring true to you?

MA: Yeah, it's a form of psychological torture to live in complete uncertainty, to not know whether you're going to have to be sent back after all you've suffered to your war-torn country to just wait in limbo for years. And it doesn't… it doesn't help people, you know, when they get out to… to be able to integrate, to be able to continue to pick up their lives, you know? For some people, it can be profoundly damaging. For others, like… like… like Behrooz, you know, they managed to create a beautiful work of literature out of it. And I think that it's… it's also, you know, part of the way that these systems are designed. You know, they're designed to deter people from coming. They are designed. And he writes in his book how we are meant to be an example. Don't come to Australia because we're going to end up in a horrific camp in the South Pacific. Don't come to the Greek islands because we're going to keep you trapped in Moria and not let you continue. So the pain inflicted on people in these camps is part of the deterrent effect. And that's, in a sense, how the system is designed.

CO: But it's not a deterrent, is it? Because people… no one leaves home unless they have to. People who are doing this don't have options, do they?

MA: No, and that's the thing is that the inequality that exists, the fact that those countries that have security, that have wealth, that have consumed the disproportionate amount of the planet's resources means that people are going to try to make those journeys. And the amount of violence, the amount of brutality that would be required to completely stop migration, you know, it would be something I don't think it's something that our societies or democratic societies are capable of tolerating, but we're always surprised at the new ways of inflicting violence, especially hidden violence, you know, at the borders. And that was, I think, kind of the reaction of the Europeans. They… they… they found ways to hide, you know, what people are going through. So they weren't massing up against barbed wire fences anymore and being beaten and, you know, sprayed with tear gas. They were being kept away in camps and kind of hidden.

CO: This is As It Happens, and you're listening to my conversation with Canadian journalist Matthieu Aikins about his book, The Naked Don't Fear the Water: An Underground Journey with Afghan Refugees. And Matthieu, you… Behrooz was there, as he says, for years, he was stuck there. You and Omar were able to find your way out and to make your way to Europe. And… but it took months, right? So when… what… what… just give us a sense of the last part of this without giving away too much of the book. But it does have a somewhat happy ending, doesn't it?

MA: It does. And so, we… we got out. We escaped from the camp and made it to Athens. And in Athens, we ended up in a squat. It was an abandoned hotel that had been taken over by a group of radical no-borders activists, Greeks and international volunteers and refugees. There's a lot of families. We're all living together in this hotel in the centre of Athens. And it was a magical place because suddenly, everyone was trying to live, you know, in equality. And certainly, people were trying to treat each other with dignity. The activists who are running it, you know, they were… they were radicals. They didn’t believe that, you know, some people because they came from one country, you know, we're real refugees, and other people weren't. You know, they were trying to… to treat everyone equally. And it was just dramatic a difference from the camp. And at least, you know, it's such a big problem the question of these borders. But you can… you can act with love to individuals and in a political way. And that's what they were doing. And it made a difference to those people's lives.

CO: At any time, though. You… through all the things you went through, and some pretty horrific things. At any point, you could just pass through that… that… that wall, that invisible barrier, right? You could just make some calls, get your passport and leave. Were there times when you considered doing that?

MA: You know, the thought was always there that I could do it. But I didn't ever consider it, no. Because it would have meant abandoning my friend. And, honestly, I would rather die than do that.

CO: And then when you saw Omar finally get on a plane that took him to Europe, what was that moment like?

MA: [deep sigh] You know, the… the whole trip, in the end, I think, was was justified by the fact that he made it. He and his family are in a safe place. I was in Afghanistan this summer and, you know, stayed through the evacuation, the collapse and the arrival of Taliban and the subsequent wave of Afghan refugees who are now desperately trying to escape the country. And I was so glad that, you know, he wasn't there anymore. He wasn’t stuck there anymore.

CO: And can you tell us a bit about where he ended up?

MA: Well, I wouldn't want to give away the ending.

CO: [laughing] But he's safe, right?

MA: Yes, he is safe.

CO: Having a life. It's often said that people who take on another identity can lose themselves in that alter ego. And close to the end of the book, you… you suggested that almost happened to you. That you considered, maybe you'll just continue to be Habib. And then, you're write, but in truth, we can't leave ourselves behind. We get only one story, which we narrate looking backward. Our choices and chance encounters. The trembling of another's hand. All matter because of where they lead us. Where did all this lead you? Who… who did you become after this was over?

MA: I think I became someone who understood a little better what all of this meant to me personally. I mean, like, you know, the wars, the Afghan friends, falling in love with a country because, you know, your own military occupy that. And lately, it’s such a disaster that, you know, you can't really have a life there anymore -- all of that confusion and pain. I think, just made more sense when I saw that it was… was… it was really just about figuring out how to be true to… to your friends, the people you love, creating some kind of solidarity that goes across those borders and divisions without ever forgetting, you know, your privilege and the place that you come from. And so, I don't know. It's an ongoing journey. Like, I don't know if I had any answers. I went back to Afghanistan, like I said, this summer and witnessed some of the most horrific things I've ever seen. And saw so many friends, you know, flee for their lives. People who die. You know, I've helped other people get out, you know, from Afghanistan. So it's just an ongoing struggle. But I think I… I realized I could put my heart into it. I had to put my heart into it, you know? And that's something I was taught by Omar and his family on this trip.

CO: Did it sometimes break your heart?

MA: Yeah, of course, there's… there's so much pain, there's so much waste and tragedy that it's very tempting to just want to forget about it. But again, like if we… if we're conscious of living in such a… such a world where there's… there's stark divisions between the value of a human life, then the only way to, I think, ease the pain is by acting, you know, acting as individuals in a way that that is in line with our political beliefs. So you just have to do… you just have to do what you can, I guess.

CO: And what about your long-suffering family? [chuckling] What impact has this had on them?

MA: Well, you know, it's funny, I always thought of the war as something that could contaminate them, that could be corrosive, you know? But I went home at Christmas, back to Halifax, and it was the first time me and my three siblings were all together, you know, since the beginning of pandemic. And my parents had a surprise for us. They had bought a little home nearby, their own house, and they were renovating it. And they were renovating because they wanted to provide an affordable home for refugees that they were sponsoring with their church group through the private sponsorship program. And actually, one of those people they’re sponsoring, hopefully, is… is an Afghan friend who’s helped me in my journalism, who's stranded with his family in Pakistan now. So we were helping knock down… you know, get the basement and talking about how there'll be room for kids. And they were excited about it. You know, my parents are kind of like in a time in their life where they have time and resources to help. And… and it was… it's something that, you know, helps them deal with it and figure it out. And it’s actually brought, you know, some love, I think, into their lives.

CO: Matthieu, thank you. This is a bittersweet story, beautifully told. And I think it should have a lot of effects on people who read it. Thank you for speaking with us.

MA: Thank you.

CH: Matthieu Aikins is the author of The Naked Don't Fear the Water. It's published by Harper Collins. We reached him in New York City. And you can find more on that story on our webpage at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

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February 18, 2022 Episode Transcript

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