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The Current Transcript for February 14, 2022

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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SOUNDCLIP

Every day I'm waiting to hear something from them and nothing happens. And this is really depressing. Almost three years has passed and so little will happen.

MATT GALLOWAY: For three years, Arian Ghobadi has been waiting in Iran for the visa that would allow him to come and work in Canada. And he's not alone. Almost two million applications are backlogged within Canada's immigration system in 30 minutes. The cost this delay is taking on those waiting to come here. And on Canada's position in the global search for skilled newcomers. Also this morning,

SOUNDCLIP

I'm hoping that the Danes will be able to be much more inclined to start kicking on the box of reconciliation.

MG: Reconciliation between Canada and the indigenous people of this land remains a complicated, difficult and ongoing project. But this is not the only nation where similar efforts are underway in an hour. The story of the Inuk children from Greenland taken from their families by authorities in Denmark and how they are fighting for truth and reconciliation in those countries. We start, though, in Ottawa, where protests continue and frustration with the police is soaring. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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Growing frustration with police over Ottawa protest

Guests: Michael Kempa, Allan Rock

MG: Three weeks into the occupation in Ottawa, and there is no sign the remaining protesters are going home. Ontario Premier Doug Ford declared a state of emergency last week. Over the weekend, police in Windsor, Ontario, made arrests at the blockade there and cleared the Ambassador Bridge to reopen. But in the nation's capital, there has not been much visible action on the part of police not on site anyway. On social media, there are posts of police officers expressing their support for the protest, posing for selfies with truckers, and this exchange with an Ontario provincial police officer on the highway into the city.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: I get what you guys do.

VOICE 2: I know.

VOICE 1: I support you guys.

VOICE 2: Thank you. That's what we like to hear.

VOICE 1: I have been on one. All of us are. Nothing but great things for a protesters. We're very thankful. Yeah, we keep peaceful and everybody's good and we have these lights go on your way to get there.

MG: The Minister of Emergency Preparedness, Bill Blair expressed his view of police in Ottawa yesterday, when the CBC's Rosemary Barton asked him why enforcement is not happening.

SOUNDCLIP

You know, frankly, it's it's somewhat inexplicable to me, too, Rosemary. We need the police to do their job, but you know, the laws are there and you know, we've we've heard that they require additional help and we've gotten the additional help, but we really need them to enforce the law to uphold the law.

MG: Michael Kempa is an Associate Professor of Criminology at the University of Ottawa. Michael, good morning.

MICHAEL KEMPA: Good morning.

MG: Bill Blair says it's inexplicable. How would you explain why police are not acting to end this occupation in Ottawa?

MICHAEL KEMPA: Well, there's several explanations, some of which are more plausible than others and ultimately will dial down and figure it out after all of this is wound up. The first one is that we've been hearing a number of cases where it seems that there is support amongst at least some police officers for the protest movement. We shouldn't be surprised by that because the police are in many ways an exaggeration or reflect or an exaggerated reflection of attitudes that exist in society. So there is support for anti-vax movements in society. There will be support for anti-vax movements within the police, and we would be concerned if their personal views would be colouring some officers willingness to act in Ottawa. I don't suspect that's the main driver. I don't think that there would be enough police officers. Most police officers are vaccinated. They haven't had a problem with vaccination policies. Much more probably has to do with being massively outnumbered and having been challenged by protesters in Ottawa whenever there has been an effort to enforce any of the any of the laws and rules without massive backup. They have had some success with some raids of campsites and so forth. But but very, very little.

MG: So there's now a coordinated effort between the Ottawa police, the Ontario Provincial Police and the RCMP. How is that? How could that change things, do you think?

MICHAEL KEMPA: It's all about personal power. I mean, in the end, we've heard all of these different numbers being bandied about, you know, there's 1200 full time Ottawa police officers on a regular day. We've been told that we've received something like 300 more from OPP and RCMP. The chief is asking for an additional 1500. We've been told that we have been given these resources, the chief says, no, we haven't. People are very confused and I think we deserve some answers as to what we have and have not received. But then even more so, we need to be told what is the plan once we receive or if we have received these officers, what are we intending to do with them? Is it going to be to carry on with the current strategy with additional manpower? Or is there a different strategy at the three coming up now on into the third week? Autobahns are running out of not just patience, but confidence, and that's critical confidence in their policing and government agencies.

MG: And you saw this yesterday where there were counter-protests, where citizens were stopping a convoy from moving into the heart of the city. What does that tell you about people's faith in police to do their job when citizens themselves are stepping in?

MICHAEL KEMPA: Well, whenever you see any type of direct citizen action in carrying out policing functions, it means that people have lost complete confidence in the policing agency. Now, obviously, I think it's a very good indication of the democratic will of of those people in Ottawa who have taken these matters into their hands. But it is something that's very dangerous. I mean, you've got people with the best of intentions who are blocking traffic and turning back convoys. In many ways, I would say good for them, but I would ask how on earth did it get to this point that citizens are doing something that many would have expected to police to have done at the outset of all of this? It's a very, very bizarre situation.

MG: It has been pointed out and we've talked about this before, that police are handling this protest differently from the handling of other protests involving perhaps indigenous people or protests involving Black Lives Matter, for example. What do you make of that?

MICHAEL KEMPA: Well, there's no doubt about that. I mean, in terms of just fair comment, we've all seen different protests organised by racialized peoples, whether we're talking Black Lives Matter and black rights generally or indigenous protest where they've been cleared away by force in short order and in, I wouldn't say similar circumstances, but occupying land in a similar way or public space in a similar way, but a much smaller scale. When we get down to this, we're going to have to ask some questions about the role of bias in policing different types of protests. Now, obviously, again, the police being a reflection of the attitudes that exist in society and in many cases, an exaggeration. Of course, there's racism in police organisations. Police organisations admit to as much. How much of it is explicit and how much of it is an implicit bias? One of the things I was very interested in, we saw this convoy coming. It was coming literally down the highway at us for over a week. They told us their intentions. And very few people either believed it or were able to compute it. How much of that had to do with the fact that the protesters look a lot like the policing agencies that were intended to receive them? We just underestimated the threat because of our implicit bias that people look familiar.

MG: Just before I let you go, I'm going to go back to the comment that Bill Blair made off the top when he says it's inexplicable what is not happening when it comes to policing in Ottawa? The prime minister called a cabinet meeting last night. First Ministers meeting will be held today, and one thing on the table is potentially invoking the Emergencies Act. Is that justified at this point?

MICHAEL KEMPA: Well, we're running out of options, and I think that given the level of finger-pointing, it's the municipalities, the province, it's the feds. Everybody's sort of saying it's they've done what they can. With all of that red tape, what the Emergencies Act does do is it cuts through all of that and it clearly puts the federal government in the driver's seat. I'm thinking that that may be necessary to deal with the current emergency, but we're going to need an enquiry not just into the response of the Ottawa police, but into the entire preparation and response of the security response. The government levels all of the security and policing agencies to detangle this. Not so much for blame, but so that we're ready for next time.

MG: Michael, we'll talk again in the meantime. Thank you very much.

MICHAEL KEMPA: Thank you.

MG: Michael Kempa, Associate Professor of Criminology at the University of Ottawa. There is growing pressure on the federal government to step up its response to this occupation. Allan Rock is a former Liberal attorney general of Canada. He also served as Canada's ambassador to the United Nations. He's now president emeritus and professor of law at the University of Ottawa. Allan Rock. Good morning to you.

ALLAN ROCK: Good morning.

MG: Briefly, how do you think the federal government is handling the situation in Ottawa?

ALLAN ROCK: Well, I think there have been a lot of fingers pointed and I think there's been a lot of dodging by all the participants here. The mayor is very frustrated he's now taken to direct negotiations himself. The premier is obviously, you know, ready to invoke his own emergencies act and attend to the border, but he's been pretty quiet in relation to what he might do here in Ottawa. And the federal government, I think, has been waiting for the police to act locally. So I think the time has long since come for action and it looks from the cabinet meeting last night and the scheduled meeting with the premiers today that the federal government is about to act. I think there are really two real possibilities of what they might do. The first has to do with the Emergencies Act, which you spoke with Michael Kempa about. And the second is the National Defence Act. In terms of the Emergencies Act, the statute itself requires that there be consultation with provinces before it is invoked. So that might be what's happening this morning, but really, the Emergencies Act is an ill fitting statute for this situation. It was written in 1988 and it deals with threats to the security of Canada involving espionage. Foreign activities that interfere domestically. Serious violations for ideological purposes. Or undermining Canada's security through covert acts. So it's not it's not an ideal fit, but it may have to do. It empowers the federal government to prohibit public assembly in certain areas to forbid travel to or from defined areas, to prohibit the use of specific property, to designate and secure protected places, and of course, to impose fines for breaching any of the orders or regulations. So we may be seeing the cabinet consult with the provincial premiers before invoking the act. It raises interesting political questions. The provinces in the past have resisted the Emergencies Act. When it was raised as a possibility early in the pandemic, they were very, very firm in resisting that possibility. Will the premiers agree now? Will Premier Kennedy, Premier Ford agree that the feds can, as Michael says, get into the driver's seat and the government will need Parliament's approval within a week? If they do invoke the act, they have to go to both the House and the Senate there to report the invocation, their consultations with the provinces and ask for approval. And if it's not approved by parliament, then the order is revoked.

MG: What's it to take steps like that? I mean, those are breathtaking steps for many people to see happen in this country. What do you think has changed in this country in the last three weeks or so?

ALLAN ROCK: Well, I think there's been a real sense of frustration and powerlessness that such a thing could happen and has happened with the result that no one sees a point of entry for resolving this. You know, how did we let these massive rigs occupy that critical street? I walked through there yesterday, and it's just amazing to see the number of tonnes of heavy equipment that are gathered in that that relatively small space. How did we let that happen? And now it's become such a thorny issue because there are children up there. There is a party atmosphere. People are in hot tubs and dancing at night with fireworks. The protesters or the blockades claimed to have a friendly relationship with the police. The police have been supine through all of this disappointing us here in Ottawa, leaving us to resort to self-help, to stand in front of convoys and stop them ourselves out on Riverside Drive yesterday. So I think what's happened is we we allowed the trucks to enter the city. They very shrewdly deployed and maintained themselves. They've got some pretty sophisticated leadership, former senior members of military intelligence of the RCMP who know what they're doing and they have run rings around the local police who claim to be outnumbered. And so now we need something more because this can't go on. I mean, one option is to leave the trucks there and turn them into planters and just say, we're going to have trucks in front of our parliament forever. I don't think that's a good option.

MG: Are we still when you see what's happening in Ottawa and you see what's happening at blockades, at other parts of the country as well, the cootes border crossing in southern Alberta? Are we still a nation that's covered by the rule of law if people can do this? And as you say, police are supine and unable to break up those blockades.

ALLAN ROCK: Well, the rule of law, I think, has taken a beating over the last few weeks. We are a nation of the rule of law. We deeply believe in it. We're deeply committed to it. It's in our constitution. It's in our DNA. But I think one of the reasons that all levels of government are going to suffer politically from this is that the defence of the rule of law has been weak. It has been late and it has been insufficient. And maybe there'll be some there'll be some catch up today through the Emergencies Act, through special orders and through and through using the military in aid of the civil power. Not not turning things over to the military, but the National Defence Act on the request of a province. By the way, it has to be a request of an attorney general of the province. The National Defence Defence Act can be used to deploy military to assist the civilian authorities. That means perhaps bringing in heavy equipment to help us tow those big rigs away if they won't drive them. Perhaps it means helping the police keep, order or enforce emergency orders that are made. But I think the rule of law has suffered a beating because we have not been sufficiently vigilant and we've let these people float it in a very obvious and offensive way. And I think it's made people angry and it's made people wonder about the effectiveness of our governments and their security forces.

MG: And what happens then if you have a loss of trust in institutions and the leadership of the country, if you need, as you said, you saw this yesterday, citizens, individual citizens coming out to protect their own neighbourhoods in some ways and turn back protesters. What does that say about trust in those institutions?

ALLAN ROCK: It's very corrosive. It's very damaging. And I think one of the reasons why it's important that the cabinet is meeting in the prime minister is consulting the premiers, and I think we're going to see some action is is to restore that trust or begin the process of restoring that trust. We cannot lose it because then we descend to a point where people don't believe in our institutions and they start questioning some of the underlying pillars of society, so we cannot lose it. And that's why action is important. And I think a dramatic action like invoking a federal statute, taking charge, deploying the the military to assist the police if necessary, those obvious, those straightforward and decisive actions will begin the process of restoring confidence because we don't know what's going to happen. I'm speculating, but there are a couple of routes the feds could take, and I've described them.

MG: This is an international story. As the former ambassador to the United Nations. What impact do you think this has on how the rest of the world sees this country?

ALLAN ROCK: Well, it raises questions. First of all, it raises questions with respect to the. The liability of Canada as a trade partner, when the principal corridor for huge amounts of trade is shut down for a week without any effective response internationally. You know, we're joining a club that the Belgium, France, the U.K., Germany, they've all had very, very vigorous protests against restrictions arising from the pandemic. So we're not alone in that. I think the fact that this has gone on so long. It's different from the protests in other countries because it's sort of been a permanent fixture. I think that's embarrassing and all the more reason for us to act and get this done.

MG: Just in the last couple of minutes that we have, how divided do you think this nation is right now, not just around these protests, but what you're seeing in terms of support for those who are fighting against restrictions across this country? Are we as divided as some people say?

ALLAN ROCK: I hope not. I like to respond by saying, look, we've been through two very difficult years of probation sacrifice. Our regular lives have been upended. People are a little emotionally off balance. There are some overreactions out there. Let's wait and see. Let's let things calm down.

MG: But there's also a lot of real frustration there. There is a lot of broad frustration. Is there? Is there not?

ALLAN ROCK: Yes, I'm frustrated. I'm frustrated that I have to wear a mask that I, you know, I can't do certain things. My life has been changed. But most people are sufficiently mature emotionally that they accept that that's got to be tolerated for a period of time until we get through this pandemic. But what really bothers me, what really bothers me in terms of division in the country is, well, we saw it for the first time with the yellow vest movement in 2019, when they came to Ottawa. I was on the hill and I watched that. There was real venom, anger and rage, and it was in violent language. And you know, we hoped at the time that was an aberration. Well, let's come back and has come back with a vengeance. So there's an increasing percentage of the population, mostly angry white men who want to get out there and scream and yell and demand that the liberal government be replaced and all that sort of thing. So I that's what worries me, and let's let's hope that it remains a fraction of the population and that the voice of reason on any side of the political discussion will prevail. Whether you're Tory, NDP or Liberal, the voice of reason must prevail, and giving over to these yelling angry white men is that's that that's that's an intimidating aspect of all this, and let's hope that we can keep that under control.

MG: Helen Rocket to speak with you. Thank you very much.

ALLAN ROCK: Thank you, Matt.

Allan Rock is the former attorney general of Canada. He's now president emeritus and professor of law at the University of Ottawa. The latest coming out of Ottawa can be found over the course of the stay, of course, at cbcnew.ca, your CBC News is next. And then

SOUNDCLIP

There are a lot of people that applied a year after me and they are getting their visa. It's just it's it's it's really disheartening.

MG: Applied, approved and years later, still waiting. Arian Ghobadi is not the only one at the mercy of Canada's immigration backlog in six minutes. Why? Some say pressing pause on attracting newcomers is the solution to dealing with that delay. I'm Matt Galloway you're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One. Stay with us.

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Immigration backlog leaves many in limbo and facing years-long delays

Guests: Arian Ghobadi, Laura Schemitsch, Warda Shazadi

MG: Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway, and you're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come: to Canadians, the story should sound familiar. Indigenous children taken from their families and sent away to integrate into a colonial culture. It happened here and it happened in Greenland under Danish rule in just under 30 minutes, the fight for compensation, recognition and reconciliation in Greenland. But first, the immigration backlog in this country.

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MG: Canada's immigration system has been buckling under the weight of a pandemic backlog. There are currently about 1.8 million applications in the system. Late last year, the government announced millions in funding to tackle the problem, and today the Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Sean Fraser, will table Canada's plan for immigration levels over the next two years. One of the applicants stuck in administrative limbo is Ariana Ghobadi. He applied to come to Canada through Canada's federal skilled worker programme, and he's been waiting three years for his visa. He joins me now from Tehran, Iran. Ariane Hello.

ARIAN GHOBADI: Hello.

MG: You applied to come to this country in 2019, and as I mentioned, you sort of find yourself in limbo now. What's that process been like for you?

ARIAN GHOBADI: It was really long, you know, it was really long and depressing. You know, throughout this 32 months of wait, I've been updated only four four times or so. And for the last year, the last two years, actually, I've been just updated for two or three times. So minimal amount of communication just happened. And basically, I'm not sure what's going on right now in the RCC. So what I did, like many other applicants, just ordered my GC on this news to, you know, better understand my situation and just realise that I've been up in the approval and waiting for the visa actually since September 2020.

MG: So when was the last time you heard anything about the status of your application status?

ARIAN GHOBADI: Actually, I haven't heard anything about it since two years ago. The online portal that IRCTC provides, actually, they give no update in the portal, although the your file maybe gets updated in the background, but they don't updated until your whole process is getting finalised, which is your ready for getting your PR. So I just hear the vote, my status where the ATP acts, the City Information Act, and which is called GCM as notes.

MG: But beyond that, you haven't heard anything from from immigration, refugees and citizenship.

ARIAN GHOBADI: And nothing. Yes, nothing, nothing except some additional documents, requests and update for medical check. And that was all.

MG: How well, how long did you think this process was going to take?

ARIAN GHOBADI: Well, to be honest, since my file was ready and I thought, it's spotless. You know, I had and I didn't have any problem. I had a previous experience in being Canada and etc. I thought it just takes like six or seven months, maybe nine months. But, you know, after just nine months, they gave me another document request. So at that point, I thought, Oh my God, it's just going to take so long. And then pandemic happened and, you know, the rest of this story.

MG: How has that delay impacted your life?

ARIAN GHOBADI: Well, it impacted actually in both psychological and practical ways. Psychologically, you know, we are in constant ways. We are demoralised, worn out, not having certainty about our future, and this uncertainty actually really leads to depression. You know, we are depressed, kind of not clinically depressed, but we were kind of sort of confused, plus some of the opportunities that happened in my life. I had a business venture and a start-up in Iran, and after I planned to immigrate, actually, my talk with my investors failed and basically my business venture failed. OK, so I left it and went for building a career, but I couldn't change my job for a better two years because if I wanted to be honest with my future employer, I needed to tell them that, look, I don't know if I going to stay in Iran for another year or so. So if you tell it to any employer, they actually it's a deal breaker. You know, they're not going to hire you.

MG: Because they think you're going to leave.

ARIAN GHOBADI: Yes, exactly. So it's in both homes in psychological and practical way. You know, it was really hard for us.

MG: You hired a lawyer to try to get access to information, as you mentioned. How much did that cost you?

ARIAN GHOBADI: I actually I don't hire a lawyer because access to information can be done via an ordinary citizen. It cost me five dollars, but currently I'm hiring a lawyer for petition for mandamus.

MG: And what do you hope that will achieve?

ARIAN GHOBADI: Well, the mandamus basically is mandating the agency, a government agency, to resolve a matter with a client as soon as possible. So just hoping that I will get a certainty in the foreseeable future, whether or not I'm not being admitted to Canada. I'm just getting my PR. I don't know it, just all hoping for some resolve. You know, in the near future.

MG: Why was it that you chose Canada to come to?

ARIAN GHOBADI: So you see? I actually studied in there and I had a first degree experience with the great Canadian culture and the values. I really love Canada. Everything about this society and the human values are great, perfect you and the nature and all of the good things that happened there and safety net. So that's obvious why I'm choosing Canada because it's one of the best countries to live. But you know, this whole immigration problem actually is giving me some second thoughts.

MG: What do you mean?

ARIAN GHOBADI: So the living and all the conditions of life in Canada is really great. But the amount of energy and the money I put for the immigration process, I could have put it in some [unintelligible], right? So I maybe could put it for applying to immigrate to another country there. I don't know it. Just sometimes I regret my decisions. You know, I think maybe it's my problem. You know, everybody interlock and internalise, of course, their problems. And it's just that, you know, it's just some personal negative feelings. You know.

MG: How much longer can you wait for a decision from Canadian authorities before you look somewhere else?

ARIAN GHOBADI: I don't know. I'm so, so so empty and so demoralised to actually to apply for somewhere else. For instance, I need to renew my language test scores and it's pretty hard, you know, considering that I have a life right now and I have many things to do in my list. So it's really hard for me to consider applying for somewhere else. But at the same time, it's really hard for me to wait much longer. Maybe I just could wait for another six months or so, you know, before resolving the matter by myself.

MG: I wish you the very best of luck. I hope you get to this country soon. In the meantime, take care of yourself and thank you for speaking with us.

ARIAN GHOBADI: Thank you so much. Thank you for having me in the show. Bye bye.

MG: Arian Ghobadi is applied to immigrate to Canada through the Federal Skilled Workers Programme. He was in Tehran, Iran. Laura Schemitsch is an immigration and refugee lawyer at Race and company in Whistler, British Columbia. Warda Shazadi Meighen is an immigration and refugee lawyer and partner at Landing's law. She's also an adjunct professor of refugee law at the University of Toronto. Good morning to you, both.

GUESTS: Marching orders,.

MG: Warda Shazadi Meighen, you hear Arian go body there, talk about being in limbo. Talk about how depressing it is for him and what he has lost in the best case scenario. How long should a claim like his normally take?

WARDA SHAZADI: Based on the processing times for when he applied, it should have been six months. That was the stated processing time on the government website.

MG: And so when we hear about this backlog, 1.8 million cases that are in limbo, how much of that is associated with the pandemic and how much of that was in place long before we entered the COVID nightmare that we're in right now?

WARDA SHAZADI: That's a great question. It's quite mixed. So a lot of it has to do with the limited operational capacity and that is contributed to by general COVID related closures. We have to recall that a lot of the applications pre-pandemic were on paper. And so for large parts of the pandemic, immigration staff was not actually going into the offices. So that's one of the reason for why we have a backlog. Another reason is that there are specific priorities that immigration has rolled out new programmes to test and focus on processing individuals who are already in Canada. And so it's a combination, so it's been compounded by the pandemic.

MG: Laura Schemitsch. How similar is what you've heard from Ari and to what your clients are going through right now?

LAURA SCHEMITSCH: I think Mr. Ghobadi echoed a lot of the concerns that my own clients and many clients are facing, both in Canada and around the world. You know, we've just really heard from a lot of people how the delays have impacted their ability to plan for their future. People have been separated from their family members for long periods of time, many before the pandemic. And so it results in a lot of anxiety and frustration and confusion for people. And I think that Mr. Good Buddies experience is definitely, really, really common at the moment. What do you tell you?

MG: What do you tell your clients about how long this is going to take this process?

LAURA SCHEMITSCH: You know, it's it's difficult when you are trying to assure your client and they come to you with a processing time that's listed on Irish website, and you kind of have to explain to them that based on your experience, those processing times are not necessarily reliable at the moment. And so it really creates greater confusion for clients. And unfortunately, it does kind of jeopardise the integrity of the system when you can't give your client a proper estimation of how long this is going to take.

MG: Warda, does that sound familiar? I mean, in some ways this is a black box. As our end was saying, he doesn't know where his application is in the meantime. He doesn't. He can't. He can't continue to tell his employers in Iran how long he's going to be there because he is trying to get out of that country.

WARDA SHAZADI: That sounds very familiar, and so we have clients like him all the time. And what we tell them is, you know that these are the COVID related reasons, and if it's a permanent residents, we tell them the backlog is over half a million and then we really have to get creative. We often engage members of parliament and advocacy in terms of just figuring out where the file is, because that's another avenue. Aside from the access to information request, we also are regularly filing mandamus applications for clients now, and that has led to a lot of resolutions of these files. But that really is clogging up the system in other ways. So the delay has cost implications and ripple effects for for a lot of our clients and for the system.

MG: Let me ask you more about the access to information. He mentioned that and awarded. You've raised that as well. There is a real concern about a lack of transparency of the process. How do you go about changing that and what is what's the cost of that lack of transparency?

WARDA SHAZADI: So the cost of the lack of transparency is huge because individuals are often going to their MPs. And one of the greatest. The vast majority actually of enquiries to the members of Parliament are on immigration matters. And we're also clogging up the courts with this. And so that has huge cost implication for the Canadian court systems and obviously for the applicants as well. And so these are not, you know, we should just be able to have a very transparent system that tells you exactly where your application is and what the estimated processing time is based on your individual file. It's sort of like a client centred approach that we really need to shift to when I order a sweater on Amazon. I know when I place the order, when it's out for shipment, when I'll get it back. Granted, immigration is more complicated than that, of course, but we really need to shift our mindset and look at individuals like Mr. Ghobadi as clients. They can go anywhere in Canada really needs us human capital for so many reasons. So we need to have a shift in transparency. And there are some new portals that have been introduced over the past few weeks to offer that transparency, and we would really encourage an increase. It's of that transparency so that other systems are not being clogged up.

MG: Laura, how much of your job consists of filing these information requests? There was a report from the Information Commissioner of Canada saying that in 2019 2020, there were something like almost a hundred and seventeen thousand access to information requests directed specifically at IRCC.

LAURA SCHEMITSCH: Hmm. Yeah. I think that those in my experience have increased significantly. I'm a junior lawyer, and so I did start working before the pandemic. But as a lawyer who was called to the bar after the pandemic started, I can see that this was a really heavy increase in this and kind of one of the only avenues for people to get an update on the status of their application, as we would submit update requests for updates and receive generic responses. And so as the months passed and frustration kind of grew for clients, that's really the avenue that we had to pursue in order to get some answers just so that people can kind of have some sense of where their application is.

MG: And so in the face of this, there are calls from, amongst others, the Canadian Immigration Lawyers Association for the Government to deal with the backlog before setting higher immigration targets. That that we have this enormous backlog. There are all of these applications and people who are behind those applications who are waiting in limbo. You push, pause. You deal with that backlog. Then you increase your immigration targets. Warda, what are the dangers in that?

WARDA SHAZADI: The dangers in that are that we are not necessarily getting the labour that we need. And so the immigration system is linked to the availability of labour production in Canada, the economy, inflation, these are all interlinked concepts and fresh inventory allows us to target the skills we need today, not the skills we need to 36 six months ago when an applicant may have applied. We know exactly as a result of the pandemic that our needs have shifted and it's really come to light. What we need in the country. And so we have to keep that in mind. And pausing the inventory has an implication on that where there's also a huge employer demand and labour shortage. So we know that 55 percent of Canadian businesses are dealing with labour shortages. And we, you know, I've also heard about the great resignation, the great inflation, and these are all linked. And so in order to carry out projects in Canada to grow our economy, we need the right type of incoming labour. And so we can't necessarily rely on pausing immigration inventory or reducing immigration levels because this affects affects our supply chain issue. We're also losing when we lower immigration levels or pause applications. We lose a lot of revenue and application fees and taxes. So someone like Mr. Ghobadi, if he's a family of four, would have paid over $3200 in government fees alone. If you look at the one point eight million in the backlog, that's a lot of money. So there has to be a way to harness immigration while also simultaneously dealing with the backlog.

MG: Laura, if there is this huge backlog, why not put push pause? Why not deal with, you know, the accumulated applications in front of us before we increase immigration targets?

LAURA SCHEMITSCH: I think that it would have to be a really temporary measure, and so to assess how temporary that measure would be in order to help those who are waiting in limbo. I think, you know, I agree with Warda about the difficulties and challenges that would arise from putting a pause on intake are kind of outweighed by the benefits continuing to process this backlog and continuing to take applications for people who are going to help Canada's economy. And not only that, but if we pause intake, and that also affects family reunification efforts. People are always going to want to come to Canada for various reasons, and so a pause on intake could further compromise the system's integrity.

MG: Warda, just about the language. I mean, part of this is about labour and want to bring that back to that in a moment. But these are also human stories. These are people's lives. And do we need to be cautious about how we're talking about this story and who's caught up in the machine here?

WARDA SHAZADI: Absolutely. We have to think about what it means in tangible terms and the fact that there are human beings as a huge part of the story. So, you know, it's the client who's a nanny who has not seen her son in five years. She finally gets her sponsorship approved but cannot go back to actually bring him to Canada because she doesn't get her PR card. Or it's the international student who has had to delay repeatedly starting studies despite being accepted because her study permit application is still in queue, or it's the Canadian permanent resident, there are just over 400,000 of them that cannot vote in elections. And so I think it's really, really important to realise that these are individual lives. And if they don't have a great experience with Canadian immigration, a lot of them have options to go elsewhere.

MG: Who are we competing with in terms of attracting skilled immigrants? Again, you heard our own Ghobadi say that he's reconsidering. He has great ties and great affection for this country, but he's now reconsidering.

WARDA SHAZADI: Competing with the United States very heavily. I actually used to work there and we we are very much competing for the same talent. We're also competing with Australia and New Zealand and many countries in the European Union. So we have to really not get comfortable and actually be quite ambitious in terms of how we continue to attract those talents. Canada has a lot going for it, and its smooth immigration processing has been one of its attractions in the recent past, especially as it pertains to economic immigration applications. And so we really have to not get comfortable and keep that up.

MG: Laura Schemitsch Is there a knock on Canada's reputation internationally when you have a backlog like this, when you're considering a pause on increasing immigration targets?

LAURA SCHEMITSCH: I think so, and I definitely had clients express their frustration, but, you know, really seems to signal a basically just a lack of confidence in the system. I think especially when people are separated from their families and they don't understand, how we say that we want to bring people to Canada and reunite people, but then in practise, that isn't happening. But on the other hand, I think that Minister Fraser's recent announcement to try and improve the system and return to better processing times and improve the time experience, these are all positive signs that are we hope that the system can get back to what it hopes to be and what it seeks to be.

MG: So the federal government and Minister Sean Fraser say the government is spending $85 million on modernising Canada's immigration system. I guess just finally, Laura, where would you want to see that money spent? Where should it go?

LAURA SCHEMITSCH: It really needs to. There is a really big increase in improving transparency. One of the biggest problems with this backlog is people you know, can understand and appreciate that's a pandemic may cause these backlogs and increases in delays. But when it's almost impossible in some situations to get an update on the status of your application, that really just increases frustration and it really impacts people. And so I think that improving transparency and giving people better answers and also just improving operational capacity with real humans making decisions that's going to go a long way to improve the status quo.

MG: Warda, last word to you. Where should that money go and how do you practically go about reducing that backlog?

WARDA SHAZADI: By really making immigration services and treating it, making it a huge priority and treating it like a national priority. So something like the Sierra has staff in the office. There's no reason that we can't think about being a bit more aggressive about having processing run smoothly by an in person processing. So just the client centred approach is really at the heart of what we need to do to reduce the backlog.

MG: And are you confident that that will happen in a meaningful way?

WARDA SHAZADI: I do. I do. I think this I think this ministry is very aware of the backlog. As you mentioned, they have invested $85 million. And I know, you know, our officers are human beings and they're also living through the pandemic. And I think that once we really understand how much we need immigration in Canada as a country and how competitive it is globally to get the right talent, then I think that's really what the push is that we need.

MG: It's great to speak with you both about this. This is these are numbers, but there are real stories and people behind those numbers. Thank you very much.

LAURA SCHEMITSCH: Absolutely. Thank you for having me.

MG: Laura Schemitsch is an immigration and refugee lawyer at race and company. She was in Whistler, British Columbia Water. Shahzad, imean, is an immigration and refugee lawyer and partner at Landing's law. She's also an adjunct professor of refugee law at the University of Toronto. She was in Toronto. If you are caught up in this backlog, have family caught up in the backlog? We'd love to hear from you. Part of this is about people arriving here for work. It's also about family reunification. As we said, get in touch. You can email us thecurrent@cbc.ca and certainly more on this to come in the days ahead. Coming up after your regional update,

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The Danes have been looking at themselves as being very good colonisers compared to many other nations, and this prevent them from seeing themselves as being a colonising nation.

MG: Truth and reconciliation between Denmark and Greenland Just as in Canada, it's a complicated and emotional process. In 90 seconds, we'll hear from a survivor on why both apologies and compensation are so important. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One. Back in a minute. Stay with us.

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Survivors are fighting for justice over residential school-like programs in Greenland

Guests: Helene Thiesen, Aaja Chimnitz, Karla Jessen Williamson

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current before my next conversation, a note that we'll be talking about a residential school experience, which some listeners may find distressing. In 1951, 22 Inuk children were taken from their homes and families. They were sent to be assimilated into a colonial culture, taught a different language and different customs. It is a story that could be Canadian, but it's not. The children were Greenlanders, and they were sent to Denmark as part of a social experiment to raise them as so-called little Danes. The programme is run by the Danish government and Save the Children Denmark. Both institutions have issued formal apologies, but now the six remaining survivors are seeking compensation as well. Helene Thiesen is one of those survivors, and she is in Stanford, Denmark. Helena Tizen Hello.

HELENE THIESEN: Hello.

MG: Thank you for joining us. What do you remember about your early life growing up in Greenland?

HELENE THIESEN: My father was ill, and when he died, there come some Danish Tollman and one translator and asked my mom, You have three children. Which of them most clever. And then she said I was. And then they said, we have to use some children to send to Denmark. And can we take Helene and and who said no, but they're asked three times and at last she said yes. She was not glad to say yes. She said that I should go to Denmark, and it should only be about a half year to half year. Yeah, and we should learn Danish in a half year.

MG: Was it about education? Is that why your mother finally agreed to send you because she felt that you would get an education?

HELENE THIESEN: Yes, I think that's because she said it will be good for her because she will be one of the first who could speak Danish and learn her French Danish.

MG: What was life like for you when you got to Denmark?

HELENE THIESEN: At first it was the two weeks we were sailing, it was really hard to come on the ship and we were crying and crying every night and saying why, why? But we were children too, so we were running around the ship and playing and everything. But when we got to Denmark, we saw many people in the harbour who come to a big house and there were 11 bibeds ts like that. So we were 22.

MG: Like bunk beds were one on the bottom and one on top.

HELENE THIESEN: Yes. Yes. Yes. We go to bed and thinking, Why are we here? Why? Why are we here? Why? Why? Why?

MG: And you were right around that age around seven or eight years old?

HELENE THIESEN: I was just being seven years old. One of the boys were only five years or so or six years, we were from five to nine years old.

MG: Did you have any contact with your family while you were there?

HELENE THIESEN: No, I could tell you that you don't give our moms our address in Denmark that knew where we were in one and a half year. We didn't hear nothing at all. So we thought, Mom, has of course that they forger us. Why? Why? Why we couldn't come home? Why didn't we get a letter from mom? We heard nothing in one and a half year.

MG: You thought your parents had forgotten you?

HELENE THIESEN: Yeah.

MG: That's awful.

HELENE THIESEN: Yes, it was so awful. And some of the big ones sometimes talking Greenland, etc., etc. And then the grown ups said, No, no, no, go up to your room, but in one hour and come back again. Remember, you must only talk Danish. No [unintelligible] language again.

MG: You were only allowed to speak Danish. Yes. When you went back to your hometown in Greenland, what do you remember about that day when you went back?

HELENE THIESEN: I was very, very, very glad that we should go home. When we come to the first house in South Greensland. We think what what to do. He did not go home to [unintelliglbe] where he lives. What is an extra 40 [unintelliglbe] go to their home when their come to this town and so on. So we all go to [unintelligible]. And when we came to [unintelliglbe], finally, I saw so my boy, my little brother and sister. I was so happy to have to go down and give her a hug and talking about all this thing I have seen and learnt in Denmark. And I look at her because she don't answer me, and I think why didn't she answers me? So after a while she looked down at me and said a lot of things and I was shocked because I couldn't understand her at all. She was speaking Greendlandish to me. So I thought my heart was stuck. I was so sorry, so sorry. Then this is the woman who should look after us, Helenem now you have to say goodbye to your mum because now you have to go to this, that bus and you should leave in the children home. I could not think. I could not think. And I look my mum. What? Did she say something? Did she let me go to the bus? And I start crying crying and crying, and I look forward to see my town. And I couldn't see much years.

MG: You weren't allowed to stay, you had to leave.

HELENE THIESEN: If we want to visit our mom? No, no, you can't just go to your mom.

MG: So you were never allowed to go back home.

HELENE THIESEN: Yeah.

MG: Did you ever see your mother or your family again?

HELENE THIESEN: No, we was not allowed to visit them.

MG: When did you learn what had happened? I mean, to be separated from your family, to be separated from your language? When did you finally realise what had happened?

HELENE THIESEN: I was married, had two children and there was a well known Spanish writer. She was phoning to me and ask about the Greenlanders who came to Denmark, and she asked me, Do you know why the Danish government never sent them home again? I said, No, I don't know. She said, I have to go to the initiatory office and find out. And then one day she phoned me and asked me, Are you sitting down? No, I I'm standing by my phone in my kitchen. And she said, Now, I found out why. You have been an experiment. I got a shock. I couldn't stay up. Fell down. And starting to crying and crying and crying and including stuff. She said we have to find out why. Then come out as it was in the radio and TV and books and everything. And she wrote a book about all of us, but I said, it's not good enough. I would write my own in my feelings, in my heart and my how bad it has been. I was forty six years old. It was my life biggest shock.

MG: Your life's biggest shock to learn that you were inexperienced.

HELENE THIESEN: Yeah. Yeah.

MG: Why is it important, do you think, that the people know this story? It's a very difficult story for you to tell, and you've been through an incredibly painful experience. Why is it important that you think people know about that?

HELENE THIESEN: Because doing that to us, they stole us from our parents, the story still lives.

MG: It's important to know what happened.

HELENE THIESEN: Yeah, I think it's very important to know for all people in the world what they do to us and our families. Destroyed our lives, forever.

MG: I'm sorry for what you went through, but I'm really it's an important story to hear and I'm glad to have the chance to talk to you about it. Helene, thank you very much.

HELENE THIESEN: You're going to come and thank you to listen to me.

MG: Helene Tition was taken from her family in Greenland in the 1950s and sent to Denmark. Support for residential school survivors in Canada is available through the Indian Residential School Crisis Line 24 hours a day. The number is 1866 925 4419. In 2020, the Danish government formally apologised for its role in the experiment after years of pressure from survivors and advocates. Aaja Chimnitz Larsen is one of the two members of the Danish parliament representing Greenland. She's also advocated for the government to take further steps towards reconciliation, and she is in Copenhagen. Hello to you.

AAJA CHIMNITZ: Hello.

MG: This is an incredibly powerful story, and learning that that's that's Helena was, as she says, an experiment and that it ruined her life forever. How widely known is this story in Denmark?

AAJA CHIMNITZ: In Greenland, I would say everybody knows the story because it's very much an example of the history between Greenland and Denmark. In Denmark, I wouldn't necessarily say that that many people there knows about this story. Maybe 10 to 20 percent of the population in Denmark knows about this story.

MG: What was the purpose of this experiment?

AAJA CHIMNITZ: The purpose back then was to make sure that the Greenland government and also the the population and the society were changing in a good direction. That was the intention, at least. And we look back in history, we know that what happened back then was totally wrong, and that's why I put forward a proposal to make sure that there would get the apology, but also to make sure that they will get a compensation.

MG: When did that really become something that was on your radar?

AAJA CHIMNITZ: It's something that's been politically discussed for many years or so at the Danish parliament as well, but it's been very difficult to to push the government to do it. So they've been saying it was wrong, but we're not going to apologise. So I pushed forward and our proposal for it in 2019 and in 2020, it happened. So I was just excited. And I think that the new prime minister at the time, Netflix and the crew and one was actually quite brave when she gives the apology and hopefully the government of Denmark will also give compensation to the persons who were involved in this experiment.

MG: Why brave? Why would you use that word given what we've just heard?

AAJA CHIMNITZ: Because this is something that we've been pushing for for decades, actually. The former prime minister didn't want to give the apology back then, and when you give an apology, usually you're also giving a compensation. And so we're right now, we're in the process still and hopefully both the apology will be given in person from the prime minister, but also from the prime minister of Greenland to the survivors, the six survivors. I think it's important to meet them in person and and recognise that what happened to them was wrong. And we, you know, we truly all of us need to step aside and say that this is very wrong and we need to do something differently when it comes to a much more equal relationship between Greenland and Denmark in the future.

MG: Why has it taken so long? This happened in 1951. There were 22 children who were part of this experiment and now just six survivors. Why is it just about the compensation or was there something else in terms of it taking until 2020 to get that apology?

AAJA CHIMNITZ: I think it's the fact that not that many people in Denmark knew about this, even Helene was surprised, as you can hear. And the fact that it was just in the 80s or something like that, that it was exposed to a much larger audience. And actually in Greenland, the government decided a couple of years ago to do a reconciliation commission that we're going to have different discussions with people around Greenland.

MG: Well, I want to talk more about the reconciliation commission. Just stay with us because we have Karla Jessen Williamston with us on the line and assistant professor of educational foundations at the University of Saskatchewan in Saskatoon. She's also Greenlandic, and she was a member of that Greenland Reconciliation Commission, which delivered that final report in 2017. Carla, hello to you.

KARLA JESSEN WILLIAMSON: Hello.

What was the Greenland Reconciliation Commission?

KARLA JESSEN WILLIAMSON: Well, the Greenland reconciliation in many ways is a follow up of what happened here in Canada in terms of the truth and reconciliation. It was a different kind of reconciliation because of the fact that at the beginning, when the proposal came about from the government of Greenland, it was a rebuttal by the the Danish government back then in 2013, where then the prime minister, decided that the Danes did not see that there was any purpose in doing that of reconciling on their own colonisation history. And they didn't feel that they had a need for it. So Greenland was more or less left on its own to do that and looking at the reconciliation from internal purposes, that's what happened.

MG: So going through going through that process of reconciliation, what came out of the commission, what were some of the findings that you think would help towards reconciliation?

KARLA JESSEN WILLIAMSON: Yeah, there were a number of issues social problems that needed to be addressed in a way that the Greenland was going to be not just self-governing, but also getting into the area of independence from Denmark, from colonial powers. As we know, the government of Greenland is still very much part of the Danish system. And within that, the Greenlandic language kind of endangered. But the big one was that the number one that really wanted to see history from the point of view of the indigenous populations because most of the history, if not all of it has been so far seen from the point of view of what the Danes did in Greenland as a colonial power. And second one is to set up a history and reconciliation department of the University of Greenland, hopefully, and also because of the fact that there has been so much freed up of the populations within Greenland that there be some effort for the into figuring out what values that we wanted to keep that can actually jealous together as a people.

MG: We asked the Danish government to comment on on what came out of this and comment on the entire exercise of reconciliation. We got a statement from the Minister of Social Affairs Astrid Krag. And the statement in part, said the official apology to the now adult children and their families for the betrayal they endured was a major step towards redressing the government's failure of responsibility. No previous government had taken on the government, and I believe that recognising the mistakes of the past is in itself crucial. We must learn from those so that history isn't permitted to repeat itself and goes on to say that the issue of compensation will be resolved through the legal system. Is that a satisfactory response from your perspective or are you pleased with with what the government has said in response to the Reconciliation Commission?

AAJA CHIMNITZ: If you only look at the apology, I would say the apology is OK. We need to have it physically and we need to make sure that the government and also no lack of trust with the government of Greenland is meeting and the survivors from the experiment. I think that's very important. And I'm actually quite surprised and and I think it would be better that my colleagues back home in Greenland would do even more in order to make sure that there will be a reconciliation between Greenland and Denmark. And I think that's quite bad that we haven't been able to to follow up on the recommendations even better.

MG: Karla, what's your understanding about that? Why there hasn't been further follow up to this point. I mean, reconciliation needs needs various partners to be at the table and is your sense that that the Danish government has has been engaged there is the Danish government at that table.

KARLA JESSEN WILLIAMSON: I would say that they have been sort of put in a situation where these [unintelliglbe] experimental children, that's just an issue. And I would say on a national level, they have not at all been engaged as to the problem caused by the colonisation and that of continuing strong assimilation at this point. I mentioned, but that there's only 10 percent of the Danish population has not has been sort of receiving some kind of knowledge about the 22 children that were forced into becoming little Danes. But I would say that, generally speaking, that only five percent of the Danish population would know anything about the history of Greenland. The Danish school system have been absolutely denying the history of Greenland as being part of their own history. I don't see that as being very problematic. And the Danes have been very, very good at looking at themselves as being very good colonisers compared to many other nations that we know in the world. And this kind of nationalistic look at themselves prevent them from seeing themselves as being a colonising nation.

MG: In Canada, there has been a real shift, I think, in the last few years, certainly when it comes to indigenous rights and a drive towards reconciliation, are you hopeful for meaningful reconciliation between Greenland and Denmark?

KARLA JESSEN WILLIAMSON: I am actually very hopeful because of the fact that Norwegians have also engaged themselves into this reconciliation movement with their own indigenous populations of the [unintelligible], and so has the Finnish government. They are engaged in that. So I'm looking forward to the results that are going to be producing in that, and I'm hoping that the Danes will be able to be much more inclined to start kicking on the box of reconciliation. And I do want to thank you for the incredible amount of energy that you have in this one year, and I hope the very best for you. Let's hope that the Danish have the good chance to do that of engaging themselves as to what their own history looks like from the point of view of indigenous peoples.

MG: This is a very familiar story in Canada, and it's fascinating to hear how it's playing out elsewhere as well. Thank you both for speaking with us.

AAJA CHIMNITZ: Well, thank you.

MG: Karl Jessen Williamson is an assistant professor at the University of Saskatchewan and a member of the Greenland Reconciliation Commission. Aaja Chimnitz Larsen is a Danish member of Parliament representing Greenland. You're listening to the current on CBC Radio one. My name is Matt Galloway. Last week we brought you the dulcet tones of Postie Connolly, P.E.I. musical legend who's been entertaining seniors throughout the pandemic with sing alongs. We asked you to write in and tell us your stories about how music has been a part of your life during COVID and here to help dig into your mail is the current's producer John Chipman. John, good morning.

JOHN CHIPMAN: Morning, Matt. This was some really uplifting letters, which is so great to see. So let's jump in here. Post he's clearly not the only one who's been out there entertaining seniors during the pandemic. We got a lot of mail from people who said they do the same. This first one is from Linda Scott in North Vancouver as a music therapist for a long term care home. She writes Eyewitness Daily The power of music to create meaning in connection with folks living with dementia. It's wonderful to see your residents join in with songs from their youth as long term memories accessed, but I am most inspired by the feelings of heartfelt joy that our residents express eyes that shine smiles a mile wide, and for many, the urge to move and dance in some way. During the pandemic, I did a lot of one on one visits and noticed that joy even blossomed in more intimate spaces. And God knows we've all needed joy in the last two years.

MG: Jan Tulloch and Whitehorse says he's been playing guitar and singing and extended care facilities there for more than 20 years. He wasn't allowed in during the lockdown, so he too jumped on Zoom after what he called a steep techie learning curve. He says the care facilities invited volunteers back last fall and I was told I could play my guitar but not sing. I recorded my singing voice on my iPad that I played back while I'm on the guitar. I am so looking forward to the day when I can once again sing in real time. The social connexion that music provides is something that has been missed during COVID. The smiles, laughter, sometimes tears and togetherness is a lifeline for us all, no matter our age. I wear a mask. You can't see my smile. We haven't hugged for a very long while. We're sanitising everything in sight. But we've got music to make things right.

JOHN CHIPMAN: Harry Jennings in Williams Lake, B.C., says he jokingly calls himself an amateur geriatric music therapist. He sings for seniors as well. The most rewarding feedback is seeing someone non-verbal sing along with me or move some part of their body while I'm singing to show some response. I get lots of positive feedback about bringing back memories. Sometimes lots of tears too, which is OK, I end every song with I Can't Help Falling In Love With You by Elvis Presley, and frankly, it brings some tears to my eyes as well. COVID has been challenging, but it's fun singing even in the masks, and the folks are so appreciative that someone cares.

MG: Another story we keep hearing from you about is the aurora borealis. We had a conversation with a scientist whose job it is in some ways to study this and figure out when the northern lights will happen and why they're happening. We've been asking for your experiences with the northern lights you've been delivering, Doris Folkens writes. I'm a folk musician. I once travelled as an artist on board on via rail from Toronto to Vancouver. I met a woman who was travelling with a model sailboat. She'd just finished cleaning out her father's home after his death, and he'd made this model sailboat over the last years, dreaming of places he could sail, but knew that he wouldn't in his lifetime. He told his daughter that after his death, he'd be sailing in the northern lights with his wife, who had already passed as the train rolled through Manitoba on a clear night. We could see the aurora borealis from the train. We took this as a sign that this woman's father was sailing the lights with his wife.

JOHN CHIPMAN: What a great story that is. This last one is from Pete Cassidy, who was driving BC's Coquihalla Highway back in 2006. He writes, As we crested a hill with an eye on an electric light visible, the aurora showed up in a shimmering green curtain. The Hale-Bopp comet was hanging in the sky and the moon was full. I pulled off the highway and tried to wake her teenage kids, but sleep was more important to them than this once in a lifetime display of the beauty of our home in the Solar System.

MG: There is a lot of joy out there. Thank you all for writing. You can comment on anything you hear on this programme. Get in touch by email thecurrent@cbc.ca. We're also on the Twitter. You can find us @CBCTheCurrent. John, thank you very much.

JOHN CHIPMAN: Thanks so much, Matt.

MG: John Chipman, producer on The Current. That's our show for this Monday. Coming up next on CBC Radio one, it's Q. It is Monday, the 14th of February Valentine's Day. And whether you are celebrating or not single or not rolling your eyes right now or not. I hope that our common ground is that soul music is the right soundtrack for romance. With that in mind. I'm going to leave you this morning with a tune for slow dancing from the Reverend Al Green. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. I'll see you tomorrow.

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