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The Current Transcript for February 3, 2022

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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SOUNDCLIP

What Canadians deserve from a conservative party is balance, ideas and inspiration. I pledge my support to our next leader and I urge everyone in our party to come together and do the same.

MATT GALLOWAY: Just 17 months after he became leader of Canada's Conservative Party, Erin O'Toole was shown the door yesterday in just a moment the search for a new leader, but also an identity for that party. Also this morning, there's been a lot of talk about vaccines in the midst of this pandemic, though it's not just the COVID shots that are important in 30 minutes. Why some doctors are worried about routine vaccines that aren't being given to kids and to seniors. And later,

SOUNDCLIP

We did a huge disservice a long time ago on a PR campaign that said, when in doubt, throw it out. That's terrible advice. So we have to go back to just using our common sense.

MG: The price of food is skyrocketing, foodbank use is soaring. And yet at least 30 percent of the food produced in this country goes to waste. In an hour, the renewed focus on ensuring the food that we have actually ends up on plates, not in the landfill. We start, though, by asking what it means to be a conservative in Canada today. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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After ousting Erin O’Toole, what’s next for the Conservative Party?

Guests: Monte Solberg, Tasha Kheiriddin, Shakir Chambers

MG: And just like that, federal conservatives are in need of a new leader again. Yesterday, a majority of the party's MPs voted to remove Erin O'Toole from the helm immediately. Mr. O'Toole said he accepted the outcome and offered these words.

SOUNDCLIP

Canada is in a dire moment of our history. You need only take a walk down the street in front of parliament to see how divided we are. So my message to my party is the same I will give to the prime minister and members of Parliament on all sides of the House of Commons: Hear the other side. Listen to all voices, not just the echoes from your own tribe. Realise that our country is divided and people are worried. Work together because how we as leaders act now will define the next generation.

MG: Last night, the party chose Manitoba MP Candice Bergen as the interim leader. Erin O'Toole was the third Conservative Party leader to run and lose against Prime Minister Justin Trudeau. I'm joined now by three conservative thinkers to talk about the choices that lie ahead. Shakir Chambers, a principal at Ernst Cliff Strategies and a former senior policy adviser to Ontario Premier Doug Ford. He also worked in Prime Minister's offices under Stephen Harper. Tasha Kheireddin is a principal with the strategy firm Navigator and a national political columnist for Postmedia, and Monte Solberg is a former Conservative MP and cabinet minister and the CEO of New West Public Affairs. Good morning, everyone.

GUESTS: Hello. Good morning.

MG: Monte Solberg, did he need to go?

MONTE SOLBERG: I think he did. Once you get to a point where. MPs have lost faith in you, and you are seen to be not consulting with them about issues that they feel so fundamentally in their in their own ridings. At that point, I think it is time to vacate and make way for somebody else.

MG: Tasha, carried in 17 months in, was removing Erin O'Toole the right call or does your party need more patience?

TASHA KHEIRIDDIN: I think the party ran out of patience for two reasons one, obviously after the election, but a lot of soul searching as to why the result was the way it was. And the conclusion was that it was a combination of the message. Some people in the party did not like the message, but also the way Mr O'Toole prevaricated and went back and forth and flip flopped on issues. And I didn't stop after the election and we even saw it the night before the vote when he said that, you know, he would change the party's policies, potentially if people kept him around. So I think that his leadership style unfortunately did him in at the end of the day and also to what Monty said people felt they weren't listened to by him, so it was an untenable situation.

MG: Shakir Chambers, is that what it was about his leadership style or was it about Erin O'Toole's policies or a combination of the two?

SHAKIR CHAMBERS: I think it really played more to his leadership. I think ultimately Monty hit it bang on. I think when you're looking at his style, his tone. If you hear the party and you want to make a fundamental change to policy, like you just say, for example, the carbon tax policy, I think you need to have membership and caucus kind of discussed that that goes away and Erin O'Toole about things almost surprising his caucus when you have these policy decisions. He read more by telling them what to do and not really by consultation. And I think that really fed up a lot of the MPs that just said, You know what? It's time to go in a different direction, whereas at least 30 percent of caucus that weren't going to support are moving forward, regardless of what he did or what the outcome of that vote was. So I think a lot of other caucus members, while they might like him and respect everyone, talk quite a bit, rip off the Band-Aid, start fresh, let's go in a different direction.

MG: Tasha. In a statement after yesterday's vote, Matt General, Edmonton Area MP who supported the removal of Erin O'Toole, said the party needs a leaders who, and these are his words, clearly reflect, reflect our values. What are those values, do you think?

TASHA KHEIRIDDIN: Well, that's the big debate, because there is a schism within the party as to what those values are. When you look at the protests over the weekend, the values that came out were values of populism, not conservatism and populism, as we've seen in the United States goes down roads that Canada, I believe, should not be going down. A lot of people in the Conservative Party see that with great alarm. Conservatism is really based not just on individualism, it's also based on community and the sense that people owe each other a duty. It's rights and responsibilities. So I think that the party has to decide what definition it wants because true conservatism isn't really reflected in what was going on this weekend.

MG: You wrote in the post, conservatives need to take a long, hard look at themselves what they stand for. Who's leading the parade and whose company they keep? Because if they don't, they will wake up one day and they won't recognise the face in the mirror. Do you recognise when you look in the mirror, do you recognise the party looking back at you?

TASHA KHEIRIDDIN: I don't recognise it as a party I used to, no. But that party has gone through several iterations when I was involved in the party back in the 90s. It was the progressive Conservative Party and that is, I think, still the winning formula in terms of coalition building the party needs to do going forward. The issues are different today and the pandemic has accelerated the sort of, I think the divide the people see, there's anger, you know, economic displacement and things that we weren't dealing with back then on the environment. Those issues have become wedge issues and not just between the Liberals and the Tories, but within the Tories themselves. So they have to look and see how they can apply the principles of conservatism, the ones I, you know, iterated they go back to Edmund Burke, you know, the French Revolution and the opposition to rampant change. What we saw on the weekend was that kind of revolution spirit that Burke actually railed against and said no incremental change looked to tradition. Look to the past, be prudent, community focussed. Those values, I think, are things that the Conservatives still can apply today, but they have to talk about them and they haven't talked about them in quite a while.

MG: Monte Solberg, too, those values still apply to the party. Erin O'Toole won the membership or the leadership as what he called a true blue conservative, then tacked to the centre face pushback. Party delegates rejected the idea that climate change is real. There's talk that he faced real opposition from the right of the party when it came to the unanimous vote banning conversion therapy. So those progressive conservative values still apply here. What are the values that the party represents?

MONTE SOLBERG: No, I think they very much apply. But it's also the case that, you know, society has changed and not just. In Canada, society has changed everywhere. The public will no longer accept the idea that, you know, my peers will go away to Ottawa or to Westminster and just make decisions for them and they'll have no input. I mean, those days are long, long gone. And you know, we need to find a way to respectfully consult Canadians on the one hand and also use our good judgement to influence that discussion and that debate and ensure that people understand all the consequences of some of these very weighty decisions that MPs have to make. I also think it's the case that we we need to quit blowing oxygen on this idea that we're deeply divided. I suspect that the great majority of Canadians probably have views that are pretty similar. And, you know, if we emphasise the divisions, then of course people are going to run around thinking we're deeply divided on all these issues.

MG: What about conservatives? Are conservatives deeply divided? I mean, you were there when, when the two wings of the party in some ways were brought together, and it seems as though Stephen Harper was able to hold that together. Andrew Scheer, not so much. Erin O'Toole. Not so much. Is it still possible to bring those two flanks of the party together?

MONTE SOLBERG: Of course. Absolutely. You know, and 90 percent of the issues, I think conservatives, whether they're in downtown Toronto or rural Alberta, probably see the world in a very similar way. You know, and and to some degree, you know, the fact that, you know, we're focussing on a few things like vaccine mandates these days or or restrictions. That is definitely a wedge issue. But if you ask people how they feel about entrepreneurial-ism, more rules-based trade or, you know, national defence, safe streets, et cetera, people are probably pretty close in their views on how those things should be addressed. And I think it does take a leader who can enunciate all of this and remind people that we have far more in common than the things that divide it.

MG: I guess the last point I want to bring you back into this, but the last point to you, Marty Solberg, is in some ways this is about winning an election. And the reason that people say that the party is divided and they'll show is that the party isn't able to win those votes. In Toronto, where there are a lot of votes. In Metro Vancouver, where there are a lot of votes. In Quebec that without being, you know, heading in the direction that that Erin O'Toole was talking about through the middle, you're not going to have enough votes to form government.

MONTE SOLBERG: No, that's true, I think we we need to do a much better job of providing people, especially in suburban Canada, with policies that are that resonate with them and that they believe will actually address some of the their biggest concerns things like addressing climate change, you know, as just one example, but probably going forward, it'll be things like expanding the health care system, especially after this pandemic and and doing some of the things that, you know, they just see as relevant and practical, not necessarily ideological. And it will fall to a new leader to work with his caucus. And I hope the party to consult them really broadly on this and and say, what do we need to do to start to win over people who are sitting on the fence about the Conservative Party of Canada?

MG: Shakir Chambers in a column for the Globe and Mail on Tuesday, Andrew Coyne wrote The party's problem is extremism, which runs- which through it does not define the party as a whole, but is enough to taint the remainder of the party. Do you agree that that in some ways the party has an issue with how it handles extremism?

MONTE SOLBERG: I think there are some voices and some views that you might have to say are unacceptable. I mean, in that same article, Coyne points to the fact that, you know, we can debate how to deal with climate change, but we can't deny that climate change is happening. And I think if you have those kind of views, obviously those are to be tempered down and we need to focus on on the issues. I think where the nation of Canadians are. When you said when you spoke to Monty, I totally agree with your point in terms of there needs to be a gradual shift to the centre in terms of if you're going to be winning votes and I'll tell you, you're going to be winning votes in Quebec. You have to moderate some of those views. I think as a as a party, we have to be in a position where there isn't one or two is leaving. It's very clear that we have intellectual ideological positions that we have as a party, but our pursuit has to be being in government, having the next prime minister. I think when you get to some of those extreme, more extreme voices you to temper those down and focus on what unites Canada, what unites more of the, if you will, the more progressive moderate views that may come in Ontario, Quebec and how do we bring those views to the forefront? I would say also when you speak of Erin O'Toole plays the true blue crowd as in the leadership race. One thing I would point out whoever is going to be the next leader. I think the important thing we need to look at is, are they going to seek a mandate from the party and from the base to take it where they know it needs to go to win the election? Or are they going to still play to that true blue card and have to shift gradually once they become.

MG: Which are two very different things, people say that you run to be the leader and then you run to be the prime minister, and those are very different goals.

MONTE SOLBERG: I think that that's not going to be the case. I guess what I'm pointing out is that there are some people there are some names being tossed around in terms of leadership race for the conservatives. And I think some of them do have some strong conservative bona fides. Do they speak to the base and say, You know what? I understand you. I hear your issues. And listen, I need to seek a mandate and authority from users. This is where we need to be as a party. Here's what the 21st century is for certain kind of looks like. And let's use this so we can win the prime ministership. Because if you look at the Liberal Party right now, I mean, Trudeau's going into his eighth year, they do. They look a little bit like a tired government. It is a very winnable election. So are we going to seek that mandate that's going to be in a moderate position that's going to unite Canadians and have us in a position to win the next election.

MG: Tasha, I'm going to go back to what you referred to, which is the protest. That's a demonstration that's outside of Parliament Hill right now. You wrote, If you stand shoulder to shoulder with people who display racist symbols and don't tell them right then and there to leave your protest or take them down, you aren't standing up for freedom., You're standing with hate. How should the Conservative Party respond to what's happening downtown in Ottawa right now?

TASHA KHEIRIDDIN: Well, they should have done exactly that. Erin O'Toole should have gone out in front of that crowd. He should have addressed that crowd and he should have said, You know, we hear you. Like, Shakir said, I understand many of you were here because you're desperate and you feel you need to do something. But what's happened and you don't quite know what, but you want to make your voice heard. But you over there with the swastikas and you over there with the Confederate flag, you have no place here, either put it away or leave. No one called it out in a very direct way. In fact, many conservatives portrayed it as, you know, this was a party going on and condemn things after the fact, but not on the spot. And I think the one of the big things that conservatives have to be is a club people want to join because the racism, the extremism tag, unfortunately, since the 2015 election and the snitch line that was proposed for barbaric practises, it still haunts the Conservative Party. It is unfortunate because most people do not subscribe to those views at all. But if you want to grow the party, if you want to attract new Canadians, if you want to attract people so that they feel comfortable identifying with you and voting with you, you have to dispel that and you have to speak to them very directly. And I don't feel that they have done that adequately, and I hope that whoever the next leader is succeeds in doing that. Otherwise, you won't grow the base.

MG: Monte Solberg, How big of an issue is this? There's a photo circulating from last night of Andrew Scheer, former leader of the party, other MP from Saskatchewan, with some of the folks who are protesting in Ottawa last night hanging a flag off of one of the trucks. How big of a liability is that for the party?

MONTE SOLBERG: Well, I think the flag in question was a Saskatchewan flag, the one I saw.

MG: That's what I mean. Hanging the Saskatchewan flag off of one of the trucks.

MONTE SOLBERG: Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, we do we do need to take this seriously. I completely agree with Tasha and and you know, these things should be called out. And it is true that you are, you know, judged by the the people that you allow into your company to some degree. And you know, we need to be smart about this and and principled and and take this on quite directly. You know, there's it's just such an easy tag for our opponents to say that we're racist or we're whatever because they've got a picture with somebody with the Confederate flag in the background or whatever it is. And the way to address that is to make it a priority to talk about it and not just when things are melting down, but at all times. And so I completely agree with Tasha. It's, you know, it's something that probably has contributed to our inability to break through in some of these, some of these areas, especially suburban Canada.

MG: So let's talk about who could lead this party and who could bring it together. Monty Solberg, who do you see as somebody who who could represent what you've been talking about in terms of addressing the issues of the party, but also taking it to where it needs to go?

MONTE SOLBERG: Well, I think, you know, we want somebody who probably has some experience with all of this, you know, experience in politics. It's really hard to say at this point who those you know who that would be.

MG: Who's your dream candidate?

MONTE SOLBERG: Well. I don't I mean, Ron Ambrose obviously is is somebody that we all talk about. I don't think Ron is very interested in this right now. There are provincial politicians who I think need to be considered. And you know, there are old hands in the conservative movement. Peter Mackay is one who immediately comes to mind, but you know there would be others as well. The challenge will be to get people to stand up and run in this fraction, you know, in this day and age when there's so much anger, especially on social media. But I would just say to people that, you know, there is a great opportunity here to defeat the Liberal Party. Prime Minister Trudeau is not a strong leader and you know, he's not exactly exciting people these days. They're not doing very well in the polls, and there is an opportunity for a good leader who can communicate well and who can bring conservatives into the discussion to do great things.

MG: Shakir Chambers, who's on the top of your list?

SHAKIR CHAMBERS: Um, I don't want to put any names on this. I think even in the last race, we had a lot of names that we tossed out there for Brad, [unintelligible]. All these folks who just end up running, I think it's more about the characteristics, right? So who can speak to the reality of where it is today, you know, reach those groups or whether it's LBGTQ community, ethnic groups, speak to some of these issues, like housing affordability, some of the core issues that are impacting us right now. I really want someone who's all that can speak with conviction. You know, there are views that we might say are slightly controversial. There are views that you might say are not even mainstream. But I think if someone can step to that podium and speak with conviction about conservative views on why they believe what they believe, I think they can be a very persuasive leader. They can get people on board with their agenda.

MG: Tasha Kheiriddin, do you have a dream leader?

TASHA KHEIRIDDIN: I'm like Shakir. I have a picture in my head and it's somebody who I understand. Conservatism is authentic in their convictions and conveys that can bring people together. Speaks French, too, because the Conservative Party cannot afford to write off Quebec and can expand the tent while maintaining the faith of much of the base that's theirs.

MG: And that and that person is named...

TASHA KHEIRIDDIN: I beg your pardon.

MG: I said. Then that person is named...

TASHA KHEIRIDDIN: No, that person doesn't have a name yet. There are people, you know, Ron Evans isn't running. I think she would have been great. I, you know, she said she's demurred. But somebody in that mould. There you go. That that's that would be. I think a person that could could be a progressive conservative in the tradition of the party and under [unintelligible] and also someone in, you know, similar. Stephen Harper was not a progressive conservative, but he was a strong leader and he kept his caucus together.

MG: We'll see whether that person exists and whether a person puts their name forward. It's good to speak with you all this morning. Thank you very much.

GUESTS: Thank you. Thank you.

MG: Tasha Kheiriddin, principal with Navigator, a national political columnist with Postmedia. She was in Toronto, Shakir Chambers, also in Toronto. He's a principal at Urnes Cliff Strategies, former senior policy adviser to the Ontario Premier Doug Ford. He also worked in the Prime Minister's Office under Stephen Harper, and Monte Solberg is a former Conservative MP and cabinet minister and the CEO of News Public Affairs. He was in Drumheller, Alberta. Your thoughts welcome. Who could lead the Conservative Party of Canada and do what our guests said needs to be done? Email us thecurrent@cbc.ca. The CBC News is next and then:

SOUNDCLIP

Public health off the radar. The nurses were overworked, people were leaving, nurses were leaving seemed like kind of chaos and we were trying to call public health. And no one was answering.

MG: its Bill Rogers experience, trying to get his infant daughter. Her vaccinations during the pandemic, not the COVID shot, but other routine vaccinations. We'll talk about barriers to routine vaccinations coming up in six minutes. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current.

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How the pandemic has interrupted routine vaccines for kids and seniors

Guests: Dr. Jia Hu, Laura Tamblyn

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come watching lettuce turn to slime in the back of your produce drawer is only part of the problem when it comes to food waste. A huge percentage of the food in the supply chain in this country is feeding compost heaps or landfills instead of people. What can be done to fix that? Coming up in about 30 minutes? But first, we're talking vaccines, not COVID shots, but all the other ones meant to keep us healthy.

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MG: This pandemic has interrupted so many elements of health care in this country, including those routine childhood vaccinations for diseases like measles, polio and whooping cough last summer. Bill Rogers spent a tense few weeks worrying about his one year old daughter's shots after the family moved to Nova Scotia from Ontario and had a hard time finding a family doctor.

SOUNDCLIP

So at 12 months, children are supposed to get a measles, mumps and rubella vaccine. That's MMR, and they are also supposed to get a meningococcal vaccine in a new [unintelligibile] vaccine, which I guess maybe is pneumonia. We started calling to public health before we moved to Bridgewater, and we were actually in touch with a public health nurse there, and it seemed like everything was going to line up OK that we were going to be able to get what they call it here as well baby check. But with COVID ramping up around the summer, I think it was the third wave public health off the radar. The nurses were overworked. What they told me at that point was that they were pausing vaccines for children that were not assigned to doctors. And a lot of nurses that I spoke to were very, extremely helpful people, but just had their hands tied with the COVID, the kind of prioritised COVID response.

MG: In the end, Bill Roger managed to get his daughter inoculated within the right time frame, but that has not been the case for some Canadian parents during this pandemic. A group called 19 to zero found that about one in four children missed their scheduled shots during this pandemic. Dr. Jia Hu is the CEO of 19 to Zero and a public health physician. Dr. Hu, good morning.

DR. JIA HU: Good morning.

MG: Put that statistic into perspective, one in four children have missed their scheduled window for routine vaccinations. How concerning, as a public health physician, is that to you?

Speaker 2: Yeah, it's extremely concerning. I mean, I think if we look before the pandemic, we saw the so-called vaccine hesitancy, one of the greatest public health crises facing the world. And that was when our vaccine uptake was 90 percent, 80 percent for most of these childhood vaccinations. And you know, I don't think this is being driven by hesitancy. But if know, we thought that 90 percent coverage was not for down another 25 percent, you know, we were really at risk of seeing resurgence. A lot of these diseases, these vaccines prevent against what

MG: are the vaccinations that you're seeing the most significant drops in?

Speaker 2: We definitely see the largest drops in the vaccines given during in school based programmes so that those would be a vaccine for human papillomavirus, which is a cancer for one of the meningitis vaccines given in schools and hepatitis B in Ontario, for example, rates of HPV human papillomavirus vaccine coverage normally 70 percent, and they've dropped actually less than one percent during the years of the pandemic, when kids have to go to school and school based programmes have been closed. But it's a fact that all vaccines, the backdrop is so stark.

MG: I mean, in some ways this is an obvious question. But how important is it for children, infants and toddlers, especially, but also teens to be able to get those vaccines at specific ages at the right age?

Speaker 2: Yeah. Super, super important, I mean, the way our vaccine schedules are created are our intention. Also, some illnesses affect younger children, so I suspect older children. And I think that, you know, with the drops that we're talking about, there's a huge swath of the population, these kids at risk of all sorts of illnesses that we don't see a lot of anymore and we haven't seen a lot of during the pandemic because we've sort of been on these lockdown situations. But, you know, by the time we get back to normal, I think it's very easy to see a resurgence of whooping cough or measles or. You know, one of the things that's sort of gone gone the wayside, but you always are at risk of coming back. We don't have high vaccination coverage.

MG: Is that really possible? I mean, measles in particular, you think of is something like that. Could we see a resurgence? And do you think parents are aware of that, that if the schedule isn't followed, that it doesn't take much to create that resurgence given how contagious measles is?

Speaker 2: I definitely think we could. You know, again, going back to pre-pandemic times in 2019, you know, Canada saw a series of measles outbreaks and think there was a bigger one in sort of the Lower Mainland in British Columbia. And again, that was with very high vaccine coverage rates by two percent or. Now, if a quarter of kids sort of miss these vaccinations, then we're definitely way below their herd immunity threshold or something as contagious as those.

MG: Let's talk a bit more about why. Why are these vaccines not being given? I mean, we're in the midst of of, you know, this tumultuous global health crisis. But from your perspective, why aren't these vaccines being given out in the schedule that they should be?

Speaker 2: Yeah, and a similar to what your guest was saying on the air before, a lot of it is access, and I don't think this is really anybody's fault per se. But in places where family doctors buy vaccinations of public health, prior vaccinations, family doctors offices have often been closed. And so it's hard to get your vaccine and public health have been sort of redeployed to do other things. And from our survey, it seemed as if that was the main driving factor. Another factor is that, you know, as with vaccinations, a lot of parents people were, you know, a bit scared to see their health provider for routine care. And we sort of saw that throughout throughout the pandemic. And so really, I think it's the access piece primarily. But it's also I think that people don't necessarily know what their kids are supposed to get. It's quite a complex schedule. There's a lot of things you need to get. And you know, if you're seeing your paediatrician or family doctor probably every two months to kind of remind you, but you know, if you don't see them for a bit, it's easy to kind of forget. And, again, not anybody's fault, which requires more education.

MG: We know through the the code of Experience that access impacts different communities differently, and we've seen racialized communities disproportionately affected when it comes to access to COVID vaccines. Are those communities being impacted differently when it comes to these routine vaccines as well?

Speaker 2: And that's what I think, so, you know, even before the pandemic. You know what, we were doing some studies on who had the lowest COVID rates, you know, we saw lower COVID rates amongst racialized communities, you know, amongst people with less income amongst single parent households. And so I think pretty much, you know, these groups always get disproportionately impacted with COVID or with other sort of vaccinations.

MG: It's also just a reminder to your point around the HPV vaccine of how important those programmes in schools are, that if kids are there and you have them gathered in one place that it's a lot easier to get the vaccine out.

Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that just speaks tooptimal access, right? So I think the school based programmes are really good for kids who it's the best place to give the vaccine to kids, actually. But even with full school based programmes are running 100 percent again, coverage wasn't that high 70 percent or so, I'll say, across the country. And I think what we've learnt from COVID is that optimising access even further through things like pharmacies or through community based clinics that allow us to even push that number even higher. And so we really want to, I think, restore access to at least what it was before the pandemic and through the pandemic. We've learnt a lot about how better to provide vaccinations and deploy those tactics to hopefully get those rates higher than they were before. They weren't super high before.

MG: We're going to come back to that in a moment. Stay with us because I want to bring one other voice into our conversation. It's not just children who are missing the chance to get these routine vaccines. The seniors advocacy group can age just put out a report card about adult vaccinations in Canada and gives this country a D minus for how well we protect older Canadians against flu, pneumonia and shingles. Laura Tamblyn Watts is the CEO of Carnage. Laura, good morning to you.

LAURA TAMBLYN: Good morning.

We're talking about kids vaccines. How much has COVID itself gotten in the way of routine shots for seniors?

LAURA TAMBLYN: It's bad and two levels. The first is we're actually extremely bad at vaccinating older people with routine vaccinations to begin with. And then during the time of COVID 19, of course, it's dropped off considerably.

MG: Tell me more about that. What have you seen?

LAURA TAMBLYN: We know about one in seven older people, and that number really needs an asterisk next to it because it's probably much more than that. I have missed some form of routine vaccination because of COVID 19 that can't get to the doctors, or it's too difficult to get to pharmacies right now and also confusion about what the COVID 19 vaccine covers in terms of respiratory illnesses versus things like the influenza shot or pneumonia shot.

MG: We tend to think of the childhood shots as essential, but the three vaccines that I mentioned flu, pneumonia and shingles, why are those so important for older adults to get?

LAURA TAMBLYN: We call them the holy trinity of adult vaccinations. So the flu shot many people will be aware of is an annual shot usually given in the fall. And many people don't realise there's two different types of flu vaccines, and this is one of those big coverage problems in Canada. So there is something we call a seniors specific vaccine. So for my mom, who's 85, she would get a particular formulation. Some people call it the high dose flu or an adjuvanted flu dose, and that's different than the one that my 19 year old son would get. So the same type of protection, but quite different in terms of dosage, and we don't do a good job across Canada in making sure that seniors get the right dose in terms of pneumonia. It has a terrible outcome. It's a one time shot, typically, and shingles vaccine is incredibly helpful. We have a new shingles vaccine called Shingrix, which is north of 95 percent effective. But most people don't get it either, because it's not covered or it's too expensive.

MG: So let's talk about accessibility. We, in speaking with Dr. Hu about childhood vaccines, you mentioned a number of barriers when it comes to that accessibility. How available and accessible are these shots across the country for seniors?

LAURA TAMBLYN: Very difficult. People seem to think that you can kind of get shots everywhere, but it's not true. The patchwork of where you can get different vaccines is baffling in this country. So every province and territory has its own rules. Typically, we're better with flu shots because we are trying to have a more public mandate, and that means you can typically get flu shots. Maybe not the right one, but flu shots in a broad variety of places, including pharmacies. But that's not the case typically for pneumonia and shingles, which usually require going to a doctor. And these days, that's incredibly difficult and you need a prescription from your doctor, then usually to go to the pharmacist, get the thing, go back to the doctor. So it's two visits and sometimes extra costs as well. It makes the barriers really challenging.

MG: You mentioned the cost of shingles. What is the cost in that vaccine?

LAURA TAMBLYN: It's about $300, and it's over the course of two shots. So for a family living on a fixed income, $600 is just a barrier that most people can't afford.

MG: There are in this report, you say, pockets of progress. Where where are the good things happening?

LAURA TAMBLYN: Prince Edward Island has really jumped as the leader in the country, and it covered that senior specific vaccine this past year and the shingles vaccine, although only for people 65 to 70. Well, I just turned 50 this year, so if I lived in P.E.I., I wouldn't have that coverage. The same was also true for Ontario, Ontario's also added. Be the top scorer in the country is a B that's not that good. Ontario also has that senior specific flu shot, and they're doing more around making sure other places can do vaccines. But still, Ontario got a very poor score for access, although their coverage is good and the good news story is Yukon. It went from an F to C this year. It expanded coverage and really did a specific outreach into vulnerable populations.

MG: We have seen so much misinformation around the COVID vaccines. What are we seeing when it comes to hesitancy around other vaccines within senior populations?

LAURA TAMBLYN: On the whole, older people, if they know about adult vaccines, typically want to get them, but it is hard to get them either the right ones aren't covered or they don't know where to get them. What we see overwhelmingly is that people don't know what vaccines are supposed to have.

MG: So you said, you said if they know.

LAURA TAMBLYN: If they know our public information or run out of vaccinations is extremely poor. So it's like you go through school, you get to 18, you get your little yellow card and you never think about vaccines again, except perhaps the annual flu shot. And that's certainly not the case. COVID 19 has raised awareness about out of vaccinations, but we need to make sure that we get the other ones in the arms of people to keep people healthy and well.

MG: Dr. Jia, who is a public health physician in Calgary, who has been listening and started off our conversation. Dr. Ho? Same question to you. I mean, when we talk about COVID vaccine hesitancy and misinformation, how much of an impact do you think that might be having on parents when it comes to getting their kids their regular childhood vaccines?

DR. JIA HU: You know, at the current time, I don't think it's having a huge effect. And so that's really good actually, I don't think there's much bleed over between COVID misinformation and routine vaccine misinformation. I think to Lori's point, a lot of it has to do with access and awareness. You know, I do see a possibility of more of the government's information sort of leading onto this and spreading. That's why I think we really need to get organised around educating parents and seniors and adults about why these vaccines are so important.

MG: Are there other jurisdictions, whether it's, you know, across the country or elsewhere that are doing better when it comes to this? I mean, how do we fare as a nation when it comes to making sure that in this moment, we're not falling off that schedule when it comes to childhood vaccines?

DR. JIA HU: Yes, so I mean, I think there's actually a lot of variation across Canada, so Alberta, where I'm from. We've seen some of the lowest declines in routine childhood vaccinations. And that's because public health here and they delivered sort of all the vaccines as opposed to places like Ontario, it's mostly family doctors have actually prioritised this. And so we've only seen single digit declines in that. But I think on the adult side, we just don't really have the ability to provide any adult vaccinations that are publicly funded right now. And so I think that across Canada, across the world, we're seeing sort of varying degrees decline, all of which I think is quite significant. And I think the only way we sort of recover and I certainly think we can is by, you know, I think continuing what we were doing for but also adopting sort of novel access points, you know, new collaborations around education, et cetera, are a lot of things we learnt from it, actually.

MG: So tell me more about that. What should we be doing now to ensure that coming out of this pandemic, I guess, kids? Well, we'll talk about seniors in a moment, but the kids in particular are up to date on their shots.

DR. JIA HU: So I think a few things, so I think number one, we really do need a plan to sort of recover lost vaccinations. It's just to get us back to where we were, you know, across the country, I mentioned a school based programmes. A lot of public health units were beginning their school based catch up programmes. But then on The Current it and again totally sympathise with the school system and public health because they keep on getting ground with this. But I think setting up those catch up programmes is really important. I think that for older kids like the ones in school, I think making those vaccines accessible in places like pharmacy is really important as well. I think awareness and education just around this particular issue is key. A lot of the provinces in various ways do actually report on just how much these vaccination rates have fallen, but they're kind of a little bit hidden on government websites. And I think a bit more transparency in reporting on just where we're at with routine vaccination, I think would be important because it really then cast light on the problem. And then lastly, with kids or adults, I think we've seen through the pandemic that there's been a mobilisation of society, you know, whether it's big companies or little NGOs to really work on the issue of vaccination. And I think that a lot of these groups now know a lot about vaccines, a lot about vaccines and have the trust of the populations they serve. And I think engaging them to help address the issues around routine vaccination is also critical that a

MG: renewed focus on public health. I mean, we've spoken with public health officials over the course of this pandemic, and they've said in many ways we've been doing great work before, but the reason that you didn't know about it is because the work was happening. Now we know more about public health. And so is this a renewed focus coming out of this pandemic on the importance of collective public health?

DR. JIA HU: Yeah, no, absolutely. I certainly think that people now know more about vaccines or organisations like [unintelligible] than they ever knew before. And that's a really good thing. I think we faced some challenges, namely that the health system and public health and I was a medical shopper that much the pandemic was very, very burnt-out. And so we can't rely just on public health, I think, to fix all our problems. But the good news is we've mobilised much society who now cares and is aware of the importance of these things. And so just organising things in a way where we sort of have all hands on deck, you know, mobilising different types of health care providers, different organisations is going to be key to it. I think really, you know, restoring and hopefully even getting vaccination rates higher than where they were before.

MG: Laura Tamblyn Watts From your perspective, what have we learnt from this pandemic that would help ensure that those three vaccines, the Holy Trinity, as you said, are available and accessible and that that seniors know that they're there?

LAURA TAMBLYN: Well, unlike childhood vaccines, we do a really bad job without vaccination. We need to look that in the face, and we ask the local public health units to try to figure out how much they can afford. That's the wrong way to do it. It really should be the federal government that funds like COVID 19, all of these vaccines under its public health mandate and gives it to the provinces. So we learn that that way of doing vaccine purchasing and distribution works, and we should do it because right now we have serious vaccine inequity, depending on where you live in the postal code. The other thing we learnt is co-administration is great. And if we had used that opportunity to get the other vaccines into the arms of people when they were already going to getting their COVID boosters, we would have significantly increased the protection rate so we can do that. More co-administration, get your pneumonia, get your shingles, get your influenza vaccine at the same time, you're doing your COVID 19 boosters, which is what we do with kids. But we need to do that more going forward.

MG: Who takes the lead on that?

LAURA TAMBLYN: We really need to have a revise what we call national immunisation strategy. So most Canadians will be surprised, you know, even have one because we've done such a bad job with it. But if we could have that federal support for the provinces doing it, we can mobilise all those local sites that we've been using for COVID 19. The last thing is really important is we need to listen to our pharmacists who have been wonderful. Of course, over the time of COVID 19 and for most people are the local community hub. And yet pharmacists are often not able to give the shingles vaccine or the pneumonia vaccine for no good reason.

MG: Doctor Hu, just finally, what would your message be to parents and seniors as well? They might have missed because of everything that we're going through. They may have missed those routine vaccines. The schedule might be off and they might be worried about what happens now. What would you say to them?

DR. JIA HU: Yeah. So I would say to them that it's OK, you miss them. It's not really your fault, but I think it's important to sort of understand what you've missed and get caught up. And when you have time, when the system is time, try to book your child in for those vaccinations as an adult, try to book yourself into those vaccinations. We have a bit of time, so long as we're kind of like down to not see this better this disease, but that will soon evaporate because it will open up pretty soon. I think that's pretty important to do. And so really just, you know, get educated, talk to your family doctor, talk to your pharmacist, give public health the call and find out what you need and go, get it.

MG: Great to speak with you both about this. Thank you very much.

LAURA TAMBLYN: Thank you.

DR. JIA HU: Thank you.

MG: Laura Tamblyn Watts, CEO of CanAge. It's the National Seniors Advocacy Organisation. And Dr. Gere, who is the CEO of 19.0 and a public health physician in Calgary. This is The Current on CBC Radio One. My name is Matt Galloway.

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[Sound: Truck horns]

MG: That is what people in downtown Ottawa are hearing this week, day and night. Streets are blocked around Parliament Hill as the protests continue. CBC radio producer Kristin Nelson lives and works in Ottawa, and she's been talking to some of the people involved.

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VOICE 1: We're from London, Ontario, we are here to support our lovely truckers that have come from all over the country. So we're super happy to be here and we're happy with the turnout so far.

VOICE 2: And so what message do you have for for the politicians who are inside?

VOICE 1: I think they just really need to just we need to stop with all these crazy mandates and give people back some of their human rights. That is that we feel like have been taken away like this has gone on for so long and this just needs to stop. They need to listen to the small fringe minority of us and maybe take some notes and really rethink what we're what their position is because there's a lot of us that are feeling very not heard. And we hope that this weekend and going further that we are going to start to be heard because it needs to stop. It's too much.

MG: Catherine McKenney, a city councillor representing a downtown ward in Ottawa, also thinks it's too much.

SOUNDCLIP

What has happened is it has bled into the downtown, not on a massive scale, but individuals have gone into the downtown and they are wreaking terror on residents who live here. It is frightening and we don't have a police force who is engaged in this city right now to be able to manage it. Our local police force is actually managing what is happening on the hill, which is a federal crisis, a national crisis. And as a result, they're all on the hill. Nobody is in our downtown neighbourhoods, which is feet away from what's happening and and people who want to cause terror want to cause violence. Harassment are just running amok.

MG: Catherine McKenney, city councillor in Ottawa, the chief of police in that city, said yesterday there may not be a policing solution to this. So what is the way out? We will hear from the truckers, residents, business owners and authorities. Kristin Nelson spoke with about what is going on in Ottawa about the plan or lack thereof to get that city back to normal. That is coming up tomorrow on The Current, coming up after your regional update.

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It's not like you and I are throwing out necessarily. It's the producers manufacture distribution, centre and transportation. It is a whole systems failure of food loss and waste across the chain.

MG: In 90 seconds. How to address that whole system's failure of food waste in this country and why addressing that is so urgent. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. We'll be right back. Stay with us.

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The extent of food waste in Canada — and how to curb it

Guests: Lori Nikkel, Tammara Soma

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. It's Thursday, and maybe you're starting to think about writing out a grocery list for your weekend, shop some fresh fruit, vegetables, maybe a loaf of bread. And in spite of your best intentions, at least some of that food will likely end up mouldy or slimy in the back of the fridge. That's food waste, and it's a huge problem in this country. But your home kitchen is just the beginning. This is an issue that Marie-Claude Bibeau, Canada's minister of Agriculture, says the federal government is looking at.

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If we're talking about wasting half of the food all along the supply chain with a value of $50 billion this year, so it is something significant that we take seriously. But it's also a matter of getting everyone all across the food supply chain to to participate from the producer to the consumer. The processing facilities, their restaurants, the grocery stores. So there's a lot of food waste all across this food chain, and we are looking for collaboration, a commitment from everyone.

MG: It's not just about time, energy and meals going to waste, though. All that decomposing food also adds up to eight percent of global greenhouse gas emissions driving climate change. Lori Nikkel is the chief executive officer of Second Harvest, the largest food rescue organisation in Canada. She also sits on the Canadian Food Policy Advisory Council and spearheaded the 2019 report, The Avoidable Crisis of Food Waste. It looked into where, why and how much food is lost across the supply chain. Lori, good morning.

LORI NIKKEL: Good morning.

MG: Half the food in the supply chain is going to waste.

LORI NIKKEL: More than half. It's actually 58 percent. Not all of it is edible, but of that, 32 percent is edible, and it's about eleven point two million metric tons of food that is going to waste.

MG: So what are we throwing out? How does it get to be that high?

LORI NIKKEL: We are living right across a supply chain, so it's not like you and I are throwing out necessarily. It's from the producer to the processor, manufacturing, distribution, centre and transportation. It is a whole systems failure of food loss and waste right across the chain, and there's a myriad of reasons for it. But one of the reasons we did this research is because we really needed to understand the problem so we could work on strategies to fix the problem. And there are lots of ways we can fix them. But the first one would be always, in my opinion, measurement and monitoring it.

MG: Defining what it is that we're talking about. I mean, when you say food loss and food waste, what are we really speaking about?

LORI NIKKEL: Anything before retail and the food service sector in your home, that's food waste. So food life is everything further up the supply chain. So that's the producer, the processor, the manufacturer, distribution.

MG: So I might think of, you know, the back of the produce drawer in my refrigerator, the thing that used to be lettuce, which is now a bag of goo that I forgot about and I throw out. There's that. But what else are we doing? Where else to food waste occur in the supply chain?

LORI NIKKEL: Everywhere, right across. So at the farm, we lose a whole lot of food I think you might be aware of right now. We have a huge surplus of potatoes in Canada as a result of the border closures for our potatoes to the U.S. So that's happening right at the producers space. But in manufacturing, we lose a lot and we lose it for a lot of different reasons. At home, we lose it as well, and we often think of best before dates, but best before dates are right across the entire supply chain. And so all of these date labelling is a huge contributor to the problem, and it's an easy one that we can fix.

MG: Can you give me another example? Something that would leap out to people would just seem egregious when it comes to food waste.

LORI NIKKEL: Well, I'm going to go back to date labels only in terms of the word expiry. There are only five foods that expire in Canada, and I think if we all knew what those five foods were, we would be less ready to throw food right away. And those are all based on nutrition. Only three can be found in the grocery store. The other two are by prescription only. So I think that's a big piece of it. But we also dump a lot of food before it even hits the grocer or the distribution centre. We lose it in transportation, or there's a whole lot of- we don't have the the workers to green the fields. And so it's left there just rotting on the fields. And we're talking about multi-million pounds of food every year and in every sector. And I think that's the piece. It's every part of the chain.

MG: What are the foods that are going to expire?

LORI NIKKEL: The five foods are Ensure, the meal replacement. So if you're a senior, you need that product. Baby formula again based on the nutrients. The third one would be like a protein bar, because if you're running a race, you're going to need those nutrients in them. Those are the three you can find at the grocery store. The other one is for diet, and the following one is for a feeding tube. So you don't have to worry about those unless your doctor tells you to.

MG: But beyond that, those expiration dates don't seem to matter.

LORI NIKKEL: They're not expiration dates, and I think there's a real confusion. I think we did a huge disservice a long time ago on a PR campaign that said, when in doubt, throw it out. That's terrible advice. Best before dates are really they're not put on by CFIA. They're very conservative. They're put on by a manufacturer based on the peak freshness and even that's conservative. So we have to go back to just using our common sense. I mean, best before dates didn't even come around until the 70s. So we have to realise that this is not going to cause you any harm if you follow, you know, certain rules around it. And also you can freeze any food which will along the life of it.

MG: What are the initiatives that are underway right now to deal directly with reducing food waste? As I mentioned, you sit on the Canadian Food Policy Advisory Council. So what are some of the policies that are in place already?

LORI NIKKEL: So right now, we are actually just making recommendations of policy to the minister. But the federal government did put together a food waste reduction challenge. So we're in the middle of that and that's on prevention and upcycling. There are two streams to that where it's a competition. So the greatest idea when the million dollars, but there are there's a infusions of funds to get you to the next stage of your project. So those are two really good things that are happening at the federal government. I think this is something that every government is looking at in terms of moving food from upcycling it into food or biogas. I think we can all agree that the one thing we don't want ever is for food to end up in landfill, so we want to reduce it at source. If you can't then diverted to people rich or poor, there's enough surplus food in Canada to feed every Canadian for five months. So just get that food to people. And then we look at biofuels and composting and only finally in landfill because it's creating methane, which is a direct contributor to the climate crisis. And we in Canada are feeling it at twice the rate as the rest of the world.

MG: There's enough food in Canada to feed every Canadian for five months.

LORI NIKKEL: Correct.

MG: And yet we have record use of food banks across this country.

LORI NIKKEL: Exactly. And one of the other studies that we just launched was about exactly that. Where are people accessing food? Because we often hear food banks and food banks, there are forty seven hundred. There are 61,000 charities and nonprofits where Canadians are accessing food right now. Sixty one thousand. I mean, they shouldn't really be joined because one of the food waste issues we need to prevent it and one is the poverty reduction issue, and we need to prevent that as well. But in the meantime, we need to make sure that we can get this healthy, perishable food to the communities that need it.

MG: I guess I just want to go back to the why? Why is it if there is all this food that it's not getting to the people who who could use it, who who rely on it, who who are desperate for it?

LORI NIKKEL: There's a number of reasons I think industry there needs to be a fair amount of education around food safety and liability. So I think there's some confusion that there's liability. Should somebody get sick on donated food, that's not true at all. In every province and territory, there is legislation that will prevent anybody from being sued. Having said that, there has not been one instance in Canada or the states. So if it's not happening in the states, either where someone has sued because of that, so we have to, you know, inform and educate that you can absolutely send the food. There is, you know, brand issue. We want to make sure that the food is moving safely and it should. So we have to make sure that our charities and non-profits are in compliance with those food safety rules, especially when you're dealing with temperature controlled food. Another reason is Canada is huge, so moving really large amounts of food across the country is very costly, and a lot of the charities and non-profits are small or mid-sized or, you know, grassroots, and they just don't have the capacity to accept that food. But that's one thing that we're working on. We have a food rescue app that will connect directly, a charity with a local food business. We're working on third party logistics trains, planes, boats, trucks, you name it, to get food out. But ultimately, that's just a temporary solution, right? Like that will provide somebody a meal that will not provide them food security that is really about income, housing and a lot of other things.

MG: There are, as you mentioned, private sector organisations that are helping to connect grocery stores and restaurants with food charities so that that food doesn't end up in the landfill. Hajirah Hussain is executive director of the Richmond Food Bank in B.C., and they partner with a company called Food Mesh. Take a listen.

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Food Mesh is a Vancouver based company, and their main mission is to give food a second chance. Our partnership with Food Match started in 2019, and since that partnership came into being, our food recovery efforts have increased 10 times. Our whole offering just switched before it was 70 percent non-perishable food and 30 percent was perishable now. It's the opposite.

MG: It's very similar in some ways to what Second Harvest is doing, do you want to boast a little bit about what your organisation has been able to achieve?

LORI NIKKEL: Absolutely. So last year alone, we were able to divert 41 million pounds of food, a waste from landfill and to the charitable sector and perishable healthy food. And we do that with our food rescue app, which is very similar. We're just not a private organisation, but the more the merrier. Keep that food out of landfill. And we work across the supply chain and across all the charities, the non-profit. So if you are a charity or non-profit and you need food, please visit Second Harvest. We're here to help. And if you are a food business and you have food and you all have food donated.

MG: You heard the minister at the beginning of our conversation say this is a priority. What needs to be done to show you that it's a priority? What needs to be done to show us that we can make use of the food that we have in this country?

LORI NIKKEL: What we're advocating for is measurement monitoring, setting targets and accountability to those targets so that they're in line with the goal and also providing industry the support they need to make sure there's an economic return. You know, job creation, carbon credits. It's not just like a whip, it's the carrot. Let's make sure that we're all in this together, collaborating on it. And if we can put that policy in place, it's amazing how quickly things will change when you have to do something and you have to hit a target. Innovation flourishes.

MG: Are private companies in some ways ahead of the government in this?

LORI NIKKEL: Some of them Maple Leaf would be a great example of that if they're a carbon neutral company and they've been working on this for a long, long time. Food waste being one component of what they're doing. So certainly there are companies that are way ahead, but there's also many of them that are way behind. And if we could create a standardised system of measurement, it would be so much easier for organisations and industry to get on board. So part of it is just there's a huge upfront cost to doing this, and a lot of businesses just don't have that, that money available to them.

MG: Lori, good to speak with you about this and the work that you're doing. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Lori Nikkel is the chief executive officer of Second Harvest. She was in Toronto. Tamara Soma is the research director and co-founder of the Food Systems Lab at Simon Fraser University. She's also an assistant professor at the School of Resource and Environmental Management there tomorrow. Good morning to you.

TAMMARA SOMA: Good morning. How are you?

MG: I'm well. Tell me about the research that you've done on why it is that people waste food

TAMMARA SOMA: at the food systems lab. We've been conducting research on our food loss and food waste issues, so all across the food system. But when it comes to households, it's actually quite complex because what we found in our study is that a lot of people know that wasting food is bad. People actually have some of the capacity and the skill to know, you know, that it's good to transform leftovers into maybe another food or maybe to just eat the leftovers. But I think the problem is that the nudges there's a lot of nudges in their environment that makes them overconsume. So I've talked to participants in our studies where they say we know this is not a good idea for us to buy like all of the eight pineapples, but it's a deal if you know if the sale is too hard to resist. And so that that is a major issue.

MG: And part of that's marketing that people are told, you know, you don't need to buy a head of lettuce. He knew, but need to buy this tub of lettuce, even though you probably won't get through the top of lettuce or the eight pineapples.

TAMMARA SOMA: Exactly. And in terms of marketing, you know, the buy one, get one free or even, you know, buy buy to get another one free. So I think that the nudges are pushed for overconsumption instead of buying the optimal amount, and I think there's an important role for retailers to play to help consumers reduce food waste.

MG: What about further downstream when it comes to food loss? Tell me about the agricultural sector and the drivers of food waste there,

TAMMARA SOMA: where we talk about the upstream, the food loss in the agricultural sector. I've worked also with farmers here in British Columbia and one of the main issues that they discussed is, you know, we have very stringent aesthetic standards that has nothing to do with the quality or the ability of the food. It's simply, you know, measurement or sometimes even just the colour of the food itself would result in the food going to waste.

MG: What do you mean the aesthetics and standards? I mean, given the example of that.

TAMMARA SOMA: Okay. So for example, say the apples, so a farmer would have an orchard and then with apples when they are actually selling it to to the buyers, they would they certain standards and measurements. And even, you know, the hues, the hues matter, the colour of the apples matter. And then so if an apple, for example, has a slight bump or maybe a slightly smaller but is completely edible, no one would would even notice there's no different taste that would be rejected. And so because of that, the farmers would just leave it to rot in the field. And that's something that's, you know, beyond their control. These are just stringent aesthetic standards that are outside of their control, and that is definitely a major issue.

MG: What else is happening within agriculture?

TAMMARA SOMA: In terms of agriculture, what happens is with price fluctuation is that farmers, for example, would invest a lot of money in producing food and all of the labour in all of the energy and resources to produce the food. And then sometimes the prices would actually not match the cost of the production. And so because of that, you know, for them, in some cases, it actually doesn't make sense for them to sell it because they can't cover the costs of the labourers to harvest the food and then to send it off for transporting and packaging and what have you. And so in those in those cases, too, you know, farmers might actually leave the food to rot in the fields. But then there's other issues like climate change and then also precarious labour. You know, in B.C., for example, there have been, you know, there's the flood, but then the and the wildfires, you know, can also impact fruits. You know, the smoke can actually get absorbed into the fruit and that that creates a problem where farmers can't sell that either.

MG: I'd said in the introduction that food waste is behind something like eight percent of global greenhouse gas emissions. What's the science behind? Why all of that food waste produces so much greenhouse gas emissions?

TAMMARA SOMA: Well, the thing is, with food waste, what we need to remember is that it's not just the food that's already produced, and then it's being left to rot in the landfill and then generating the greenhouse gas methane, which is stronger than carbon dioxide. So that's one element of it. But what we have to remember when we are thinking about food loss and waste across the supply chain is that there's greenhouse gas that's emitted for producing the food, you know, from all of the different inputs, whether it be the oil and the tractors and the chemical inputs and fertiliser inputs. You know, that also emits greenhouse gas emission. And then we also have to think about the fact that most often, unless it's a really, really short food supply chain, we have a long distance food supply chain and food is being transported from all around the world and there's greenhouse gas emission related to that, too. So, we have the stats in Canada that, you know, we waste annually about close to $50 billion per year, but that's not the true cost. So when we think of the true cost, we think about all of the associated resources, water, energy, labour and then so then the number gets even bigger.

MG: I will talk about how to prevent food waste in a moment, but if the food is at this point being wasted, you just heard from Laurie talking about food diversion so that it doesn't end up in the landfill. How important are programmes like what she's operating at Second Harvest?

TAMMARA SOMA: I think diversion programmes are definitely important, especially because, as you know, Lori mentioned, a lot of the food are perishable edible food, and they are not waste. So they are these are surplus food. But the one thing that Lori mentioned also is that very key to this whole process around trying to reduce food waste is also at the prevention level. And that's where we need, you know, the kind of policies that will need to be to be implemented by August, a levels of government.

MG: And so if you're going to try to reduce waste. Tell me about some of the solutions, particularly we'll start with agriculture. When you're talking about what is being grown on the farms, what are the policies that could be put into place to help stop some of that food being wasted?

TAMMARA SOMA: First of all, it's important to understand that a lot of the farmers actually want to donate. But the problem is it actually cost a lot of effort and energy and resources to donate. And so, farmers should actually have financial support so that they can actually make their ends meet. You know, to donate, you need the logistics. You also need someone to actually harvest the food and that costs money. The one thing that we're actually working at the Food Systems Lab is trying to think about other alternatives because currently farmers are very much reliant on a handful of buyers. And so they have a very strong control over what food they reject. And so we're looking at what are other opportunities for Canadian farmers, ranchers and food growers? And we're looking at, for example, institutional food procurement, for example, our farm to school programmes or to farm to campus programmes where universities and schools can also be, you know, a stable buyer for local Canadian food.

MG: What about that idea of the aesthetics that some people might go to the grocery store and they want that perfect apple? The farmer thinks, well, if it's an imperfect apple, it's not going to be bought by a distributor. May not be bought by a consumer. How do you address that through policy?

TAMMARA SOMA: Some retailers actually have tried to sell more ugly fruits and vegetables, and what have you. And what they found is that because there is kind of a prevailing standard of norms around consumers, retailers might actually have more waste because they're trying to sell these ugly foods. But there's not enough education for the consumers for them to actually then buy it. That is a major issue, but I think the biggest thing is that, you know, with a lot of the fruits and vegetables in Canada, farmers have noted to me that there's a lack in food processing infrastructure that can transform fruits and vegetables and two other types of foods that can be upcycling, so making it into soup or jam or what have you. And so if we also have those opportunities for farmers, you know, that's called value added products that that will even bring more money and more income. And so I think there's that aspect as well around aesthetics. The food that that might not be good for retail can still be transformed and processed.

MG: Is there a way to incentivise the purchase of of food that's being grown and produced here in Canada over food that we would bring in from abroad that might arrive here, perhaps would be a little bit cheaper. We might buy more of it and then some of it might spoil things.

TAMMARA SOMA: Pricing is very complex. And, you know, so I talked with farmers where where they would say, for example, this is the season for zucchini or this is the season for blueberries or what have you. And and somehow, even though this is the season in that particular province are still competing with food prices that are way, way cheaper because there's labour pricing, there's different land structures and pricing. And so, making food is not cheap. And yet somehow, we don't always equate the cost of production with the cost that we see at the store. So that's when we need to think about, like other support systems for farmers so they can make their employees and also harvest the food. Because again, labour also is cost differently in Canada, and we need to account all of those complex factors.

MG: There's a role for industry to play in this as well. Take a listen to Tim Faveri, who's vice president of sustainability for Maple Leaf Foods in Canada. They produce meat and plant protein foods, and their corporate goal is to be the most sustainable protein company on Earth.

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Our vision and our purpose is really tied to being competitive and successful business by focussing our business in addressing social and environmental needs. One of those environmental needs, obviously, was food waste and as well the alignment for the connectivity of food waste to climate change and greenhouse gas emission. I think what companies and all food system actors need to do is start to manage and measure, measure and manage how food loss and food waste is impacting their business. It's also an important issue around food security and to ensure that the entire food system is sustainable and resilient and cost effective for all Canadians.

MG: Tammara, are you finding that private companies, public companies, industry are involved in this issue right now?

TAMMARA SOMA: In this issue? There are many, many innovators, you know, social enterprises, so companies and businesses that have a very social justice lens trying to also try to address an environmental problem and and that is definitely a hopeful aspect of all of this. But what I will what I will say is that again, I think we all need to work together because, even for me, working in the consumer realm, so much working with households, whether they be in single family household or multi residential household. Many of them actually have the tools and the understanding and the motivation they they don't want to waste food. But I think again, like this is where we need to think about our kind of food system. Why the types of incentivising of overconsumption, these are the kind of issues that needs to be addressed as well. And so we I don't think we have tackled that aspect yet.

MG: We have as a country have set this goal of reducing food waste by 50 percent by 2030. Do you think that I mean, you've kind of hinted at this, but is it at all realistic to have that goal?

TAMMARA SOMA: I think that it's important to have that goal. I think how realistic it is really depends on our collaboration. I think I'm very hopeful that, you know, Canada set up the Canadian Food Policy Council at the federal level. But again, this is a complex system problem that requires, you know, provincial provincial involvement and municipal involvement. And so I think that a broader collaboration or alliance to really address these issues and to start that measure measurement and and incentivise food waste reduction will hopefully lead us there. I'm always a cautious optimist.

MG: What about for the individual? Again, these are big systemic issues, but people always want to know what they can do on their own. So when you know somebody looks in the refrigerator now and sees what's there, what should they be thinking about?

TAMMARA SOMA: When it comes to food waste and also food loss, it really helps to be able to plan. Now I understand it's challenging to plan. There's a lot of kind of scarcity. People are busy often, but what I find, you know, for most people, many of them who can work from home, it's easier to be more mindful. It's easier not to get tempted by, Oh well, I've actually already done my grocery shopping, but I'm still going to eat out anyway and then leave the food to just compost in my refrigirator. And so I think that a really good website for individuals to check out is love, food, hate waste Canada, there's a lot of tips, there's a lot of recipes and strategies. But yes, I think that individuals have a very strong role to play as well.

MG: Love food, hate waste Canada.

TAMMARA SOMA: Absolutely.

MG: Tammara, thank you very much.

TAMMARA SOMA: Thank you very much.

MG: Tammara Soma, research director and co-founder of the Food Systems Lab at Simon Fraser University. She was in Burnaby, British Columbia again. There's a large systemic issues, but there is also a role for the individual to play. How are you going about trying to reduce your food waste shopping more mindfully? Are you using one of my favourite things leftovers? Let us know. Email us thecurrent@cbc.ca, or you can find us on Twitter at The Current. CBC that is The Current for this Thursday. Coming up next on CBC Radio One, it's q. All week they have been talking about climate change in the arts, and that series continues this morning. One thing before we turn the wheel over to Tom. Did you see the game last night? Not the hockey game. The soccer game. Canadian men beating El Salvador two nil. A couple of dandy goals. The last and only time the Canadian men's national team went to the World Cup was 1986. We talked about this yesterday, but the excitement around soccer men in women's soccer. In 1986, the Canadian men left Mexico without scoring a single goal, earning a single point in their appearance at the World Cup. That historic run, though, still had its own anthem sung by Edmonton folk duo Sons of Andrew. Perhaps there will be an anthem this time when the Canadian men make it. In the meantime, this is Oh, Canada will proudly play for you. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. See you tomorrow!

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Thursday 3 February, 2022 Full Transcript

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