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The AIH Transcript For February 02, 2022

[hosts]Carol Off, Chris Howden[/hosts]

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden, this is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

CO: Exit stage right. Conservative MPs have ousted Erin O'Toole as their leader. But the party's former deputy leader, Lisa Raitt, insists she's confident the party's future is looking bright.

CH: Siege mentality. The mayor of an Alberta border town says he believes in the right to protest, but this week's blockade over vaccine mandates has left his community feeling held hostage.

CO: Now is another winter of our discontent. For the second year running, Groundhog Day feels like Groundhog Day. The movie, that is. So we'll revisit our conversation revisiting the film about revisiting the same day over and over again.

CH: Be kind, don't rewind -- is what Carol's likely hoping. But we're not going to spare her another instalment of our segment, "Where Do You Get Off, Off?" -- in which we test her knowledge of 16 years of her own interviews.

CO: Stretch of the imagination. A Northern Ontario community has come up with a new angle on ice fishing, in which anglers chill inside a luxury limousine.

CH: And… can't spell "help" without "LP." Italian authorities suspected a convicted fraudster was running a vintage vinyl store in Venezuela -- and when they ordered albums from him, they found the covers were covered with his fingerprints.

CH: As It Happens, the Wednesday Edition. Radio that presents the phonographic evidence.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Erin O'Toole Vote, Carol And Chris Quiz

Erin O'Toole Vote

Guest: Lisa Raitt

CH: The Conservative Party has started shopping for a new leader. Erin O'Toole had been clinging to the job despite his defeat in last year's election. But this afternoon, Conservative MPs put Mr. O'Toole's future to a vote -- and the results weren't close. Nearly two-thirds voted for him to go. Here's some of what Mr. O'Toole said in a video after he resigned.

SOUNDCLIP

ERIN O'TOOLE: I've had my moment, my time at the microphone. But I love both the country and my party too much to not comment. This country needs a Conservative Party that is both an intellectual force and a governing force. Ideology without power is vanity. Seeking power without ideology is hubris. Conservatism is about a vision of the country that makes us exceptional. It feeds the soul. It causes us to aspire to be better for our country, for our communities, for our families and neighbours, and for our role as a leader on the world stage. But it is just dreaming without the lever of power that comes with inspiring the country and earning the trust of its people.

CH: That was Erin O'Toole speaking in a Facebook video after he was ousted as Conservative leader this afternoon. Lisa Raitt is a former deputy leader of the Conservative Party. We reached her in Moffat, Ontario.

CO: Ms. Raitt, can you put your finger on what it was that finally brought Erin O'Toole down?

LISA RAITT: I think what happened was the folks who were dissatisfied with the results of the election finally decided that they had given him enough room in order to see whether or not they were going to be happy with him as a leader and... and decided that they weren't. I think it was a combination of vaccine mandates, of trucker convoy, and just in general, not being actually convinced that the direction that Erin was taking the party and was the one that they thought was correct. So they asked for a leadership review.

CO: But could anyone at this point unite the Conservatives to find everyone moving in the same direction? Because we know that Stephen Harper, he's regarded… one of his greatest accomplishments was that he united the right. And… but it's extremely difficult to do, right? It's really a diverse party. [chuckling] And so is it really Mr. O'Toole's fault for failing? Is it really a failure of his leadership, or is it a product of a very fragmented Conservative movement?

LR: Well, we've had big wins in the past, haven't we? And we've had big losses in the past as well, and it really does come down to leadership and the timing of the leadership. I do believe that choosing a path where you speak about the economy, economic turns, the vision of the country prosperous. Those kinds of things are the things that any Conservatives can rally around and move together with. When you're dealing with issues that seek to divide the caucus, and trust me, Carol, the government, and the other opposition parties love throwing these what we call wedge issues that the Conservatives all the time because it causes a lot of strife within the caucus. But if the management of the leader is such that people are with you, and that they are listening to you, and they trust in your leadership, then you're going to be able to get through it. That's why Brian Mulroney was so successful, and Stephen Harper was so successful because they had that ability to speak to the caucus. And Erin lost that along the way and couldn't get it back.

CO: But what are the things that the caucus disagreed on? I mean, we started hearing about this revolt before Christmas, when there were Conservative MPs that were angry about the decision. Mr. O'Toole took on conversion therapy. That he would support the Liberal's desire to get rid of that. And then we heard it over gun… gun control. We heard it over the carbon tax. I mean, what… what… are these the core Conservative issues?

LR: Well, it certainly started with the carbon tax issue when Erin announced the policy of carbon pricing. And I think it was because the… the MPs felt that they weren't included in the discussion around making the change. That they weren't brought along, and they weren't convinced. Look, the days when a leader gets to tell people what they're going to say and think are gone. Any leader in private sector is going to tell you that as well. You have to motivate, and you have to bring people along with you. And you have to educate and communicate the whole way. And I think Erin just tried to move things way too quickly however he had to because there was an election call, and they were left with having to deal with things very quickly, implementing a platform he thought would be winnable and banked on winning. And then when he didn't win, he… he had to go back and face the MPs who felt that they were left out in making these decisions. Maybe the Conservative Party would have landed as whole on the way in which Erin was approaching the carbon tax, but they didn't in the time that was given, and that was, unfortunately, something that Erin could not necessarily overcome.

CO: And so do you… can you see the Conservative Party returning to some of these ideas? That conversion therapy is a good idea? People should have the choice to do that?

LR: No.

CO: That carbon tax is bad? People who might question some aspects of the climate change theories? Do you think questioning science, vaccinations, are we going to see a move in that direction in the Conservative Party?

LR: So my thought is that within the party, just my... my looking at the people who are elected and who vote there now, is when those kinds of issues, for example, conversion therapy, let's say that one is thrown… thrown into the House of Commons. I think as long as people are going to be allowed to vote what they want to vote and be accountable to their constituents, they're going to want to do that. That being said, there's not enough votes to move the party policy away from the one that they have, which is banning conversion therapy is the appropriate way to… to move forward.

CO: And what about gun control? And what about the carbon tax?

LR: So on the carbon tax, I'm actually curious to see what the new leadership contenders are going to come up with that. That's an important voting issue for me, Carol. And I want to make sure that whoever is leading the party understands the importance of being with the times and what's happening globally in terms of ESG and the need to move to net-zero. And I look for that in a leader. And I value that in the leader. And that'll be… that'll be an important consideration. And as far as the issues around guns, Conservative Party has a very strong and a very vocal history with gun owners in the country, and they've never been shy about talking about the fact that the harm in the country is not from the law-abiding owners of firearms, it's from the criminals who bring them in, and… and the guns that are illegal in the country. So focussing on that probably is the path forward for… for whatever leader is going to be coming forward, and that will unite everybody.

CO: The finance critic Pierre Poilievre, widely seen as a front runner to replace Mr O'Toole. Who would you like to see there?

LR: I want to see somebody new come in with some fresh ideas to shake the place up a little bit and talk about the pieces that matter to me sitting here in Ontario. I'm not saying that Pierre isn't a great candidate. I think he is a great candidate. I would just caution that anybody who thinks that they're going to win a general election, any candidate who thinks that to win a general election, by serving up warmed-over policies from 2008 that I ran on, it's not going to be successful anymore. They have to really dig deep and come up with what connects what Canadians today and what vision Canadians are going to buy into. So I think… I think it would be great to have Pierre as part of the leadership contenders. I think it would be great to have somebody from the outside. I'd like to see more women. I'd like to see a social conservative involved. I'd like to see more voices on the platform for serious policy discussion, and then the membership gets to see it all and make a decision.

CO: What about Lisa Raitt?

LR: No. No, I'm not… I'm not in. I, as you know, Carol, I have a husband who has young-onset Alzheimer's, and I have two kids, and I have a really good job. And… and I'm enjoying that… that life right now. And it's more than enough for anybody.

CO: [chuckle] All right. We'll leave you to it. And I appreciate speaking with you, Ms. Raitt. Thank you.

LR: Thanks, Carol. Bye.

CH: Lisa Raitt is the Conservative Party's former deputy leader. We reached her in Moffat, Ontario.

[Music: Acoustic guitar]

Ice Fishing Limousine

CH: For most people, fishing is about scaling back. Solitude, silence, communing with nature, unplugging from real life. That's not the case for Vaughn Murray. The Rainy River, Ontario man has turned a white 1994 Lincoln limousine into a place for ice fishing in northwestern Ontario. And he's renting it out at 100 dollars a day. Here's Mr. Murray describing how he made the inside of the limo ice-fishing ready:

SOUNDCLIP

VAUGHN MURRAY: It took me about two hours to cut the holes out, and then I got sewer pipe. I drilled eight-inch holes, and I put 10-inch sewer pipe over top of it. You know, to block the snow from coming in. And I banked the car up on the river and that, so she's pretty tight.

SEAN VANDERKLIS: So just to confirm then, this vehicle is not driveable?

VM: Oh, I drove it down. It's not highway safe by any means, no, no.

SV: [laughing] So you… so you don't pick up the anglers at their house and then transport them to their desired fishing location?

VM: No, they… they show up to my place. They can drive out on the ice. I have a road ploughed there. They can just park in my yard and walk 100 feet, and you're at the car.

SV: Keeping in mind that this is a limo, so let our listeners know how many… how many anglers could fish in there at one time?

VM: Yeah, there's only four anglers can sit in there at one time. It's two bench seats facing each other, and you have the front of the car and the back of the car. And so it's just like a four-passenger limo. And it is comfortable as heck. It is… you know, you sit back, you relax. There's the old bar there. Where the TV was in the limo, that's where I got the heater. You come… you just bring a cooler for food or drinks or whatever, and you just leave it outside the door. And when you want one, you go and get it.

CH: That was Vaughn Murray telling Superior Morning host Sean Vanderklis about his ice fishing limousine.

[Music: Hip-hop beat]

Carol And Chris Quiz

CH: Carol, are you ready? You've had a full week to recover. This probably feels like Groundhog Day. [CO chuckles] It is Groundhog Day, but it probably feels like Groundhog Day because it is time for another edition of “Where Do You Get Off, Off. Reynold --

CO: Oi!

CH: [chuckling] Roll the theme.

[Music: A game show theme]

CO: [in the theme] Close to 25,000 interviews, and I probably remember every one of them.

[Music fades up]

[Music stops]

CO: [in the theme] I probably remember every one of them.

CO: You know, just one moment of arrogance on my part, and you're just never going to let it go, are you?

CH: Just the one.

CO: You’re just going… yeah, [both laughing] just the one in my entire lifetime.

CH: No, seriously, it's only been the one.

CO: And I said, yes, I remember every one of them. And now you're going to hold me to that, okay.

CH: It was… yeah, the random adlib that is now going to cost you yet again. For anyone who missed it, last Wednesday, we put Carol's claim that she probably… you did have that out, probably remembers every one of her 25,000 interviews to the test. It's a segment that we call “Where Do You Get Off, Off?” Each week leading up to Carol's final show on February 25th, we will select one interview from her illustrious 16-year archive. We'll play a series of clips from that interview, and we'll give Carol a chance to guess what the interview was about, so.

CO: [chuckling] Or not.

CH: Well, last week, all you needed to hear was a reference to Aristotle and pooping, and you immediately [CO chuckles] got the unforgettable interview about the warty comb jelly with a disappearing anus. So tonight we're going to go actually farther back into your archive, a little bit, so listen closely, we will begin round two. This is an interview you did almost four years ago to the day. Guess!

[a pause and both hosts chuckle]

CH: Okay, well, we'll… we'll help you out. We have a clip prepared. Would you roll that, Reynold?

SOUNDCLIP

MAN: Like, I am a tough guy, but I'm not a bad guy.

CH: And start the clock! Carol, can you name that interview?

[Music: A Jeopardy!-like timer]

CO: Oi! Just the accent, the voice, tough guy, not a bad guy. It reminds me of the guy that had the toilet seat collection, but maybe not. It’d be somebody else who was very aggressive.

CH: Well…

CO: No?

CH: Time is up.

CO: Okay?

CH: And I can hear… The wheels are obviously turning. You have no answer at this point?

CO: Well, I'll throw this out. Is it… there's a Texan who had a collection of… the biggest collection of toilet seats in the world, and we spoke with him, and he sounds a bit like him.

[Sound: An audience goes “awwwwwe”, followed by a sad horn]

CH: Yeah. You… you really did blow the lid off that story.

CO: Oh!

CH: But, okay. So --

CO: I thought I was on a roll, but.

CH: I'm a tough guy, but I'm not a bad guy. That's a tough one. I thought it might speak to you, though, because that is the mantra that you repeat to me before all your accountability interviews. [CO chuckles] In any case, don't worry, we still have two more chances for you to get this right. So we're going to play now a longer clip from the same interview. Listen closely.

SOUNDCLIP

MAN: I'm just a student in it. You know, I just want to learn. I want to see. And I like what I saw. I like the, you know, the finesse, and then the cool and the calmness of everything. I like the strategy. You know, this is… is calming.

CH: Cool, calm, the strategy. Once again, this is essentially describing you, Carol. Set another clock, please, Reynold. And go!

[Sound: The clock is back]

CH: Carol, can you name that interview?

CO: I just… I'm… once again, chewing my nails. [muffled] I just… I can’t. That music! Would you stop that music?! It's driving me crazy!

CH: Never!

CO: I can't think. I can't concentrate and I can't.

[Sound: Timer stops]

CH: No, not ringing any bells yet?

CO: No, I can't think of the answer. But you know what? I mean, really, I didn't… I never said I would remember all these interviews just from a clip, right? I mean, I never made that claim. I just want that to be on the record, okay?

CH: Okay, fair enough. Still, we're going to have to hear the sad crowd sound. Yeah.

[Sound: It is, in fact, the sad crowd sound!]

CO: Yeah. Yeah, you're right.

CH: Uh-huh.

[Sound: The sad horn]

CH: And the sad trombone. So, I feel like you're close, but you are on thin ice. Let's roll the final clip.

SOUNDCLIP

MAN: I missed the old time where people have good sportsmanship. As I was taught, you win with modesty and lose with dignity. You know, not to say my TV personality, hey, fool! This and that. But deep inside is humili-T. I mean, you know, you notice I say humili-T. I've got that T in there.

CH: Okay. Time for a final clock. This is your last chance, Carol. Can you name that interview?

[Sound: The final clock]

CO: I am not going to struggle with this win too much because I am going to be triumphant [CH gasps] seconds from now.

[Sound: Timer stops]

CH: Oh, my gosh! Humili-T, Carol. [CO chuckles] What is your guess?

CO: Mr. T!

[Sound: Laughing and clapping]

[Music: The theme from The A-Team]

CH: Bu-bu, bada lumpa, ba, ba, ba, lumpa. Theme music there from The A-Team. Obviously, Mr. T was… starred on that as B.A. Baracus. I had to look that up. Congratulations, Carol.

CO: Okay, the sound you should have is the sound of a broom on a curling rink.

CH: Absolutely!

CO: Because… that was because Mr. T had discovered curling. And he loved it.

CH: That is correct.

CO: He thought it was the best sport ever. And so that's [chuckling] why we talked to him.

CH: He described it not only as calming, but he also referred to it as controlled mayhem. [CO chuckles] Controlled mayhem, again, a fitting description of what you managed to do day in and day out on this program for the last 16 years.

CO: Uh-huh.

CH: So, I mean, you took a page from Mr. T's book there. Two back-to-back wins, and still full of humili-T. [CO laughs] As he says --

CO: I'm trying. I'm struggling with this.

CH: You win with modesty and you lose with dignity.

CO: Yeah.

CH: But you haven't lost yet. So actually, that remains to be seen. [laughing]

CO: My ego completely in check. [chuckling]

CH: Mm-hmm. We're going to have to up the ante for you next week. And actually, we could use your help if there's an interview that you think might stump Carol. Let us know. You can call Talkback: 416-205-5687. We would love to hear your voice. Or you can send an email to: aih@cbc.ca. And reach us on Twitter and Facebook: @cbcasithappens. And now, let's get into the Olympic spirit and hear Carol's 2018 interview with Mr. T.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: Mr. T, How's the armchair curling going?

MR.T: It’s really going good. See, first I want to say I'm embarrassed about all this attention. And I was just relaxing at home and said yeah, I like curling. And you know and boom and you know wow! But I'm just a student in it. I just want to learn and I want to see and you know I got to understand the rules and all that, you know? So I liked what I saw, you know? I liked the finesse, and then the cool and the calmness of everything. I like the strategy. You know I like things like that. And then like I said, me being an athlete who played football, boxed, wrestled — all the tough stuff. You know this is calming.

CO: But you're Mr. T, I mean you’re macho. There's something wrong with this picture that you're watching and enjoying these nice Canadians sliding rocks across.

MT: That’s what makes Mr. T who he is; that’s controlled mayhem, you know? I am a tough guy, but I'm not a bad guy, which means my toughness is for righteousness. But I'm not a predator; I don't go starting on stuff, you know? I don't run from it either. You know I admire the strategy of curling; it looks so cool. I did the rough stuff, and that’s what makes me able to appreciate curling. You know there's no trash-talking. I like that there's no getting each other face. And I like how they release the stone. Wow! They make it look so effortlessly. And then the way that you know the sweepers move down the line, and not touch no other stone. Wow! That takes practice. I know that, and then I got understand you know even though I grew up on the south side Chicago, around the cold, you know I got to keep understanding that the game is played in the cold, you know? So you know I got to understand all that.

CO: Do you understand the rules to curling?

MT: No, that’s why I say I’m learning as we go. You know I’m studying it just like if I want to play golf, I've got to understand golf, I've got to understand what's points, what's out of bounds, I got to understand the lingo, to the dress code, what do I need, you know? Like I was saying earlier, for me being a ex-rough-tough-guy, I know I need some knee pads; I hope that's not against the rules. I got me some elbow stuff, you know? I know I’m going to slip down you know? So I got to learn that; I got to practice that. But at the end of the day, when I see the finished product, and see whichever team how they go out with their strategy, how they gracefully let go of the stone, and how they move and talk, and the instructions. It’s different; I like it.

CO: Now, do you know what they're saying? When they are hurling the granite down, there's something they’re yelling. I just learned yesterday what they're saying.

MT: Some kind of language, but they’re telling whoever the sweeper is what they need to do. I know that much, you know? I mean some kind of minor but what is it they tell them they will sweep which what they need to do. I knew that…. Tell them exactly what she sees what you like because you know you're the captain of the ship; you know you’re looking at the vertical and horizontal as they go down. So now you can guide your other teammates, tell them what to do, and sure that’s what it means. You know after it’s said and done, I'm sure that's what it meant.

CO: Well, apparently, they're saying hurry, hard. Hurry, hard. What do you think that means?

MT: Well, sometimes they say that, and I know sometimes they don’t; I watch, you know? So right there I’m learning. I’m learning the scoring system, one point, three points, other little stuff. You know I want to learn to practice what kind of exercise I should do, and other stuff. And do I need more yoga? Do I need to go see the masseuse more to loosen up?

CO: There's a bunch of etiquette as you know around curling. And one of them when I was growing up I learned — didn't know what it means, but Canadian Club and 7 Up is something. Rye and ginger — performing-enhancing drinks in curling. Did you know about that?

MT: No, se that right there, I’m learning again. See, I don't drink; I just do water, you know? Me, I just would want to curl and just have fun, drink water, and stay warm — maybe hot chocolate. Is that against the rule? Can I have hot chocolate?

CO: No, no, it’s fine; you could get that at the club for sure.

MT: That's what I'll be doing. I'll prefer a hot chocolate. Yes, yes.

CO: OK, but what I'm hearing is this suggestion that you might like to get out. I'm trying to picture Mr. T out there on the ice with his little broom, working the granite. I mean do you want to play? Do you want to get involved in curling?

MT: Yeah, yeah, see that's the problem I got there. Because you know I have the old football injuries, the knees, and stuff like that. So I don’t know if I’m good to be the sweeper or what not. At least I’m honest, I know I’m not that light on my feet to miss someone else’s stone as I go down. It’ll be a total mess! It’ll be like the Three Stooges if I try to sweep the stone. Everybody would be falling, they’d be taking pictures, and they'd be selling them on the Internet. I’d be the joke of the town, you know? It’s like any sport: you want to know what you’re good at. So I wouldn’t be good at being a sweeper, or a pusher, whatever the title is.

CO: Well, I learned just when I was coming here to talk to you that you're 65, so you're a senior citizen; you shouldn't be out on the ice.

MT: Yeah, I want to know can I get into the senior citizen bowl, you know? And do I get a little break? I like the sport, like I said, because there’s no trash-talk — I ain't seen it yet. I miss the old time where people have good sportsmanship. You win, you fight hard, you do the best you can. As I was taught, you were with modesty you lose with dignity. You know my TV personality is “Hey, Fool!”, and this, and that. But deep inside, it’s humility. Notice I say humility — gotta get that T in there.

CO: Well, Canadians are loving your hashtag. #curlingiscoolfool.

MT: Yes, yes, yes, because I'm respecting the sport. Like I said, I'm not going to come in to clown or whatnot. I do want to learn more about it, you know? Slowly, I’ll eventually get to the ice, I'll get to the rules, I'll get to the equipment. You know and I’m a fan, I'm a spectator, you know? So I like to watch it, you know? And so I'm enjoying it.

CO: Are you going to be watching the game tomorrow: the U.S. women face off against the Canadian women — that is going to be quite the game.

MT: Yes, yes, I was watching a little bit of the hockey. Boy, you guys are still tough up there, you know? So, of course, I'm going to be watching, you know? Sure, I'll pull for my country. But at the same time, I respect true sportsmanship.

CO: Mr. T, it's great fun to talk to you. Thank you.

MT: Oh, thank you for allowing me to talk.

CO: Enjoy the Olympics.

MT: I will. Thank you so much.

CO: Bye

MT: All right. Bye bye, now.

CH: From 2018, that was Carroll speaking with legendary TV personality and professional wrestler Mr. T about his love of curling. And you know, curling is a special sport when teams start playing before the Olympics even start. Mixed doubles is first up for curling competition at the Winter Olympic Games in Beijing. So Mr. T, sit back and grab yourself a smoothie, I assume. Canada takes on Great Britain tonight at 8:00 p.m.

[Music: Indie rock]

Part 2: Alberta Blockade Day Five, Encore: Groundhog Day Actor, Vintage Records Fraudster

Alberta Blockade Day Five

Guest: Jim Willett

CH: The protest in a small Alberta town on the border with Montana entered Day Five today. It began this weekend when a group connected with demonstrations against vaccine rules for truckers began blocking highway traffic near the border. And yesterday, tensions rose. The RCMP said a police barrier was breached; there was a collision and an assault. But the situation was changing as we went to air tonight. A lawyer for the truckers said that, while the protest is not ending, they'd be opening some lanes as a "show of good faith." Jim Willett is the mayor of Coutts, the village of about 250 residents located at the centre of all of this. We reached him in Coutts, Alberta.

CO: Mayor Willett, how does it feel to have Coutts on the international map?

JIM WILLETT: I guess that's one of those mixed blessings. They say there's no such thing as bad publicity, but happy to have Coutts on the international map, but unhappy because of the happenings that got us there in the first place.

CO: Now, what… we are hearing that there might be some movement about the blockade. What are you hearing?

JW: Well, I have firsthand knowledge. My son just drove in from Calgary. He came down just to be with the old folks during [chuckling] this time, and he left Milk River, drove all the way to Coutts. And there are no vehicles blocking traffic anywhere until you get to Coutts, where the barricade still exists. So we're not sure what's happening. I'm at the bottom of the information food chain here. So things… you've heard the trickle-down theory, well, [CO chuckles] it trickles down to me is only about 5:00 or 6:00 at night, so --

CO: Even though you're the mayor?

JW: That’s when the RCMP brief me. I… well, I'm the mayor, but I'm not in charge of anything but 250 people that I'm trying to take care of, so.

CO: And probably by the time we go to air, this is earlier in the afternoon, so by the time we go to air, we might get some information on that. So we'll… we'll update that.

JW: I saw a Canadian Press news flash that came up just a few minutes ago, and they were saying that there was a lawyer for the truckers who’d been negotiating. And they were going to give us a lane each way, and I was excited about that.

CO: As you say, your priority is the people of Coutts, and 250 of them, a lot of them seniors, right?

JW: Yeah, it's a population that leans to seniors, and there are a lot of people who live by themselves, so.

CO: And what effect has the blockade had on them?

JW: Well, it's put a real strain on the community because you've got people on… I don't know how we get to this point wherein society you've got sides? But anyway, you've got people on the one side, and you've got people on the other side, and you either totally have to go along with the blockade, or you don't. And it's created strain and stress in families. And as if we needed anything on top of the COVID thing, it's put a lot of stress on the population. And the blockade, while they said that you had access through it, it was very intimidating. If you drove up to it, there's all of these big trucks. There's a pathway through the trucks, and then you go off down toward the… you go up the highway, and there's a double lane of trucks. So you have to drive on the shoulder. And sometimes you have to go in the ditch. And it wasn't a pleasant experience, to the point that if you were older and unsure, you wouldn't make the trip, you'd stay here.

CO: And what could… we've talked to people who are trying to get through with their load to dig down to the United States, and people who’ve been on CBC talking about being stuck in that blockade with a load. And what do you know about the truckers themselves, and the ones who are not part of the blockade but got stuck in it? What… what loads have they been unable to… to transport?

JW: From what I can understand, when the blockade went in… well, I live where I can see the highway out here, and there was a long string of basically refrigerated trucks sitting in a row. And they were carrying perishables, you know, produce. And this time of year, refrigerated trucks, sometimes to be a heated truck if you got flowers in it or something in it, it runs the other way. But anyway, they had perishable goods sitting in their trucks, and they sat here for three days or so. So it was not a good situation, and it took a while for the RCMP to reach an agreement with the people on the barricades to let those fellows out.

CO: Just to get back to what it's like in Coutts. I understand that you've had a few issues. The RCMP said that you and your wife have been harassed at home. Is that the case?

JW: Again, that has been blown out of proportion. We've had a couple of people stop out in the road and take pictures of our house. We, as is the case with social media, you do receive some things. I got one very pointed message, and it shook me a little bit. But all in all, it's not been, not harassment. We never had problems with the protesters. They haven't been demonstrating outside my house or are coming and honking in the middle of the night or anything like that. The people in the protest have pretty well stayed to themselves, except for walking downtown to the restaurant and back to the protests, so.

CO: What was the message? What was the message you got?

JW: It… [pause and a sigh] well, I've not told anybody else, so I should tell the whole country. No, it was… it could have been taken as a death threat. But, again, it's the kind of thing that happens. You know, you've got all those gifts up there with slogans and things on them, and you can send them quite quickly. And then you may sit and say, well, I shouldn't have done that. So I don't know how seriously to take it? The RCMP handled it. So it wasn't… it's the first one I've gotten in my 74 years, so it was a little off-putting. But [chuckling] we carry on.

CO: How in general, do you feel the RCMP have handled this?

JW: I've heard conflicting messages, like is always the case. I think the biggest complaint I've had from local residents is that they drive around town like they're on the way to a triple homicide or something, not obeying traffic laws, and…

CO: These are police vehicles that are spinning around town like that?

JW: Yeah, yeah. The police vehicles.

CO: I thought you meant the truckers!

JW: They seem. No, this is the police. That's… that’s… you ask about the RCMP. This is the biggest complaint that I've had from the local population is that they drive around town like they own it. And we have people that are not used to… already, I’ve had problems because people aren't used to having traffic. You might walk out in front of a car before you realize, hey, there's people in town. And so, [chuckle] it's just one of those things that they're giving people a chance to complain.

CO: It sounds like you're going to be pretty happy when all this is over?

JW: Oh yeah, I exhausted my 15 minutes of fame a while ago.

CO: And… but you have put Coutts on the map!

JW: Exactly what I wanted to do. [both laugh]

CO: It's great to talk to you, Mayor Willett. Thank you.

JW: It's good to talk to you, too.

CO: Bye.

JW: Bye.

CH: Jim Willett is the mayor of Coutts, Alberta. That's where we reached him.

[Music: Indie rock]

Liberal MP Black History Month

CH: As protests by supporters of the truckers convoy continued outside in Ottawa today ... inside the House of Commons, one Liberal MP had a stark message for his colleagues. Greg Fergus rose to recognize Black History Month. But it turns out it wasn't just history, but the current situation that was on his mind. Here is Mr. Fergus' address.

SOUNDCLIP

GREG FERGUS: Every February, I normally rise to encourage parliamentarians and Canadians to celebrate Black History Month. These are not normal times. This past weekend, a small minority thought it acceptable to bring swastikas and Confederate flags to Parliament Hill. Let's not mince words. The Confederate flag is a symbol for slavery. Whips deformed black bodies. Forced labour mangled limbs. Torture almost always preceded lynchings. Intellectually, I know that very, very few people today would support what the Confederate flag represented. I will assume that the Confederate flag was tolerated this weekend out of respect for the individual's freedom of expression. However, in my heart, I was left wondering who else supports this flag? Without real-time denunciations, how am I to know? That's what scares me. Even after 188 years since the abolition of slavery in Canada, in some people's eyes, I am not equal, nor should I be free. This is why I celebrate Black history, Black Canadian history, every February and throughout the year. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

[Sound: A cheer of "here, here" and applause]

CH: That was Greg Fergus -- the Liberal MP for Hull-Aylmer, Quebec -- addressing the House of Commons today.

[Music: Glassy guitar riffs]

Encore: Groundhog Day Actor

CH: It's Groundhog Day. And the results are in. But, as you might expect from several creatures in disparate locations who've never met and know nothing about meteorology, they're all over the place. In the United States, Puxsatawney Phil has seen his shadow -- meaning six more weeks of winter. But New York's Charles G. Hogg -- also known as Staten Island Chuck -- saw no shadow. Point for an early spring. Nova Scotia's Shubenacadie Sam and Quebec's Fred la Marmotte are both predicting a long winter. But Wiarton Willie in Ontario took the optimistic stance of warmer temperatures sooner. No matter which of them is right, you'd be forgiven for thinking it won't make a big difference in your life. This time of year, at this time in a pandemic, the days blur together. It's cold, it's dark, and the future remains uncertain. Which makes it the perfect time to watch the 1993 classic Groundhog Day --- and the even more perfect time to go back to our conversation with one of its stars. Stephen Tobolowsky plays Ned Ryerson, the persistent insurance salesman in the movie. We spoke with him one year ago today.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: Stephen, I'm seeing pictures of you, from now, and you look no different than you did almost 30 years ago, so maybe you are still living Groundhog Day.

STEPHEN TOBOLOWSKY: [Laughs] It could be. The secret is this, when you lose your hair early in life and you're nearsighted and need glasses, you're bald and have glasses for decades and it kind of becomes your look.

CO: Did you ever think that this movie -- I mean, it was already a cult classic, Groundhog Day, before it became a cult classic during this pandemic -- could you ever have imagined that it would be the description of everyone's lives at some point?

ST: No, no. And we never expected anything from Groundhog Day, let alone be the perfect description of life during the pandemic. For some reason, Groundhog Day -- I have been asked to speak, let's see for 12-step programs [laughter] person, Buddhist groups. The Oakland Raiders football team flew me up to Oakland because they used Groundhog Day as a training film for their football team.

CO: What did people get out of the movie that they wanted to talk to you about?

ST: I think the movie makes your heart feel healed in a way. And a lot of reason is because of the arc of Bill Murray's character in that he is a seriously flawed man who is beaten into submission by the repetition of time. And I was at a charity event with Harold Ramis, I'm thinking, about 15 years ago and I said, "Harold, how long is Bill really trapped in time?" And Harold looked at me without a beat, said "10,000 years." [Laughter] And I said "10,000 years?!" And he said, "Well, Stephen, I wanted to base it on the Buddhist idea that it takes 10,000 years to perfect the human soul." And that is what Groundhog Day is about, it is about the perfection of our souls.

CO: For anyone who has not Groundhog Day -- and that would be very disappointing if there are those who haven't -- but the idea that people have now is they use the meme, they think it's a horror film and not a comedy because of what they're living. But as you point out, what happens is that there is this redemption, isn't there, at the end?

ST: There is. And there are a lot of feel good movies that are kind of general feel good in that there is a love completion angle to the story that our leading characters fall in love or whatever. Who cares? We all know that love is fickle. But what we really learn in Groundhog Day is the reason why Bill Murray's character, Phil Connors changes is because over time he realises when he is in service to others is when the healing process starts. Another lesson of Groundhog Day is we have to let go of what we have no control over, which is what? A 12 step program.

CO: Now, this wisdom, that you are describing, is this something that you acquired because you have thought so much about what Groundhog Day means?

ST: I think it's just an amalgam. When you're an actor, you end up learning a lot of different things about subjects you never thought you would learn about, whether it's the Enlightenment or Voltaire. I have sat in theatres, and I'm sure you have too Carol, where you watch and the actors are doing something silly and you laugh, laugh, laugh. And then you say to your friend in the theatre, "Well, that was stupid." What happens in Groundhog Day is you laugh and you don't go, "Well, that was stupid." You go, "Ain't it the truth?" There's nothing funnier than recognition of the truth.

CO: How would Ned Ryerson deal with a pandemic, do you think? Heaven help his spouse or his roommates.

ST: Listen, I have an inside line on this because I have a dear friend of mine who sells insurance very much like Ned Ryerson. I called him up the other day. He and his wife are holding up in Maine. They said living in Maine is just like being in quarantine. [Laughter] There's nowhere to go. And I said, "So, Richard, how are you doing in the pandemic?" He goes "It's great, Stephen! I've never done so much business. The insurance business is booming when it's bad news, for one. It's not bad news for the other." And so he's having a great time.

CO: It's not a spoiler to say that your character, Ned Ryerson, is this annoying insurance salesman who is the bane of Bill Murray's existence until he has his epiphany. Now, just for people who are still trapped in Groundhog Day because of this pandemic, what can you say to convince people to reassure them that there will be a February 3rd? How do they get to February 3rd?

ST: Okay. I think the essence of your question is how do we get out of this? And I think is with learning and learning something new and learning something new that you love, and you can do that at home and you could do that in a pandemic. Like let's say you hate opera, you know, maybe say, "You know what I'm going to do this morning? I'm going to listen to Rigoletto. And I know I hate it, I know I'm going to hate it. It's stupid. I'm going to listen to it." And then you go like, "Oh this is good." I had that epiphany when I was working on a job that was about an hour and a half away from Los Angeles and I had to drive. I had to drive in the traffic. So it could take anywhere from an hour and a half to two to three hours. And so I thought I will listen to the Opera Channel because I can't stand opera. And by the end of that job, I thought, I've reached February 3rd. [Laughter] I can't wait to see an opera now. I love opera. I understand now what it's about. I missed the idea of what makes opera great. And that is when our human emotions become so intense and we've all felt that especially during the pandemic, all you can do is sing.

CO: So find something to love, find some joy in your life, and you'll get to February 3rd.

ST: Yes, ma'am. Absolutely. 100 percent.

CO: Stephen, it's really February 3rd to talk to you. Thank you. [Laughter]

ST: [Laughter] My pleasure.

CO: Take care. Bye bye.

ST: Bye bye.

CH: That was an encore presentation of Carol's 2021 conversation with Stephen Tobolowsky. He played Ned Ryerson in the 1993 film Groundhog Day. And you can find our webpost about this story on our webpage at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Indie rock “Rubber Ducky”]

Vintage Records Fraudster

CH: Dateline Estela de Margarita, Venezuela.

[Music: “Dateline Theme”]

CH: Roberto Vivaldi has a criminal record. But it was non-criminal records that got him arrested. Mr. Vivaldi has an enthusiasm for two things: vintage LPs, and fraud. That second thing led to convictions for money-laundering and fraudulent bankruptcy in Italy. But before he could be imprisoned, he fled -- and vanished. Then Italian police got a tip about a mysterious Facebook page. They noticed that some of Roberto Vivaldi's cronies had posted birthday wishes on that Facebook page on Roberto Vivaldi's birthday -- even though the Facebook page was under someone else's name, and it wasn't supposed to be that fake person's birthday. The fake person was running a vintage vinyl store on Isla de Margarita in Venezuela. So Italian authorities hatched a brilliant plan, which is the exact plan you would have thought of: they ordered some records from him. Their order arrived -- and let the record show that the records showed that that fake person was indeed Roberto Vivaldi. Because they were covered with his fingerprints. So those covers had blown his. And not long thereafter, he was arrested. And I'm sure he protested that they had the wrong guy -- but his fingerprints on those albums will have the vinyl say.

[Music: Jazz]

Part 3: Ottawa Women Block Truckers, Spotify Music Pulled

Old Newspaper

CH: There's been a lot of talk over the past months about vaccinating children. And it seems that was the case a century ago as well. Last December, as crews were demolishing St. Clement's Catholic Church in the southwestern New Brunswick community of McAdam, they found a ripped piece of paper. And after some investigation, volunteer project manager Dave Essensa says he believes it's part of a newspaper from the 1880s. Here he is talking about the discovery.

SOUNDCLIP

DAVE ESSENSA: So on December 2nd, we set up and carried out the actual demolition of the building, and that is when the piece of paper originally was discovered by one of the operators, Mr. Dale Nason. It was a wet, slushy morning on December 2nd. We had a bit of snowfall here, and the grounds were not real nice. But Dale was awaiting a load and… for his truck, and he literally stepped out and looked down into the mud and slush. And, lo and behold, he saw words on a piece of old, burnt, charred newsprint that discussed vaccinations for school children. The words vaccination caught his eye, and he brought it over to a construction trailer that we had set up here on the site. And, more or less, looked at me, and he said, what do you think of that? [chuckle] At the time, it was difficult to discern what was actually printed in this? And we certainly couldn't see any date of publication on it. Rolling it over, you could quickly see that it had references to St. Catherine Street and lots of references to Montreal. And then immediately beside this story of vaccination, there was a discussion that we could vaguely read, but it was referencing the king speaking to empty benches in England. Well, needless to say, that told us that was prior to 1953 before the Queen came into the game. That's all we knew at that time, and I more or less went away with it that night and tried to clean it up a little bit more and dry it out. A little bit of searching determined that this was actually a Montreal Herald newspaper, and it would have been printed in sometime mid-August 1885. So that's really all we knew at that point.

HARRY FORESETELL: How did you determine that it was August of 1885?

DE: Well, the article speaks of a Dr. Laberge as being the chief medical officer... health officer for the city of Montreal. And a bit of internet searching and some referencing some articles that spoke to a smallpox epidemic in the province of Quebec in the 1885… it ran from February through to December of 1885. And it was a… it was a very difficult time. Quebec, there were 6,000 people were killed with smallpox. There was a huge anti-vaccination campaign issue going on. Hard to imagine in 1885, but the point was as they were starting this vaccination program, and this Dr. Laberge was speaking of the vaccination for school-aged children commencing that very week. And they had to be wrapped up by the September 3rd date. So that… that led me to believe that, yes, it was a mid-August function.

CH: That was project manager Dave Essensa speaking with the CBC's Harry Forestell about a piece of newspaper that was found during a church demolition in New Brunswick.

[Music: Ambient]

Ottawa Women Block Truckers

Guest: Andrea Colbert

CH: It's been six days since the honking started in downtown Ottawa, and it still hasn't let up.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: almost endless honking]

CH: That was the sound of downtown Ottawa this morning from a video CTV reporter Glen McGregor posted to Twitter. The crowds of protesters have dwindled since the weekend, and the police say only about 250 people remain. But the harassment, the disruptions, and the honking have continued. And people like Andrea Colbert are fed up with it. Ms. Colbert lives on a narrow street in the city's Centretown neighbourhood. A photo of her and her neighbours from earlier this week is getting applause from other weary residents. We reached Andrea Colbert in Ottawa.

CO: Andrea, what does it sound and look like on Cooper Street now?

ANDREA COLBERT: Cooper Street is fairly quiet. The last couple of days has seen some abatement of the noise. It's more centred in the… towards parliament now. Some trucks have left, although I was just listening to Chief Sloly's press conference. And he said there's a whole bunch coming this weekend, so it looks like it's going to ramp up again.

CO: And Chief Sloly is the chief of police in Ottawa?

AC: Yes, he is. Yeah.

CO: At what point did you and others, three women, decide that they had had enough?

AC: Well, we were standing on the sidewalk having a conversation. We just happened to converge out there. And we were all… we're all so traumatized that that's kind of what we were talking about, and how are you doing? What's going on? And then this truck came up our little street. It's quite narrow. And there were a few trucks behind it, and they were all honking. And those… those horns are extremely loud. And we just… it seemed like we just kind of all looked at each other and snapped. And we walked out on the street, and we stopped the truck.

CO: This is the three of you. This is Lise Lebeau, you and Marika Morris, and your neighbours on Cooper Street. So just… I mean, tell us more about that scene? I've seen video of it, but it's quite extraordinary. The three of you just go, and you're going to stand in front of this truck.

AC: Yeah.

CO: And did you have a moment when you thought he's not going to stop?

AC: We kept enough space between us that we figured we could dive out of the way if he went for it, but we really didn't feel like he was going to run us over. Like, it was… [laughing] I guess maybe naively because they are pretty aggressive. But we weren't… we didn't feel like where we were in physical danger. But the problem was it was… it's a very narrow street, and he was blocking street, making so much noise with that horn that after about 10 minutes, we let him go by, and that was the end of the confrontation.

CO: How do you feel that this… that the city is handling the situation? And the police are handling this?

AC: I don't know what to say about that, Carol? Because it's kind of above my pay grade as to, you know, what everyone's doing. I know that the citizens of Centretown feel really unprotected. We're scared. We're tired. And we're… our anxiety is pretty high.

CO: There was one story, a Facebook posting, of a woman who was describing going down the street and being yelled at by a man in a truck, take off your mask. And she ignored him, and he followed her and said, I'm going to follow you home, and I'll take off more than your mask when I get there.

AC: Oh! [disgusted grunt]

CO: And she called the police, and the answer was that we… yes, we're aware that these kinds of threats… like, people being told to take off the mask. And we're… we're… we're advising people to not wear their masks outside.

AC: Oh my gosh! No, I hadn't heard that. That would infuriate me if someone told me that.

CO: Were you wearing a mask when you confronted these men?

AC: Oh yes. Yeah, yeah. And, in fact, well, we were doing that, a young man walked by and decided to come and tell us what he thought. And he wasn't wearing a mask, and he got right in the face, like inches away from one of the ladies. And was telling her, we're doing this for the children. We're doing this for the children. And he wouldn't leave. He was right in her face. And I think to tell three ladies of our age what to do with the children, you know, [laughing] by a young guy. I don't think so. So we dispatched him fairly quickly. But that was the most aggressive, in-your-face kind of thing that we faced.

CO: So what is it in you, the three of you, do you think, that… that gave you that courage to stand up to this guy?

AC: I think we just snapped. We… we were so angry that our city is being held hostage, and we've been listening to these god-awful haunts for days. That this one particular truck coming barrelling up our little tiny street and blocking traffic. It just… it just put us right over the edge, I think. I feel like, you know, they're using their trucks as weapons. And they're holding the entire downtown hostage. And they've made very clear comments that they're not leaving until their demands are met. This… this has to be more of an occupation, not a demonstration. And they're not protesters. That's the very definition of a political terrorist, and we should call it what it is. It's really scary.

CO: One of the leaders of the convoy, Chris Barber, said that… said that he… that they feel badly for Ottawa. But the responsibility for your inconvenience, he says, lies squarely on the shoulders of politicians who have preferred to vilify and call us names rather than engage in respectful, serious dialogue. What do you say to Mr. Barber?

AC: I read that, and I was infuriated. It was pandering. It was condescending. And it was completely untrue.

CO: There are --

AC: These people who are aggressive and they're terrorizing us with their… with their machines.

CO: And… and they're going to be… and they're going to be back this weekend, right? The police chief is expecting them to return with… in numbers on the weekend. What's the endgame? The chief of police, Chief sloly, said that there may not be a police solution to this. How does this end? How do you… how do you… what… what is the solution here? Is it… how do you get this to stop?

AC: I wish I had that answer, Carol. I only see in the future, either someone gets to these people, and cooler heads prevail. Or it gets… they have weapons, apparently. So that's why the police are afraid to really push the situation. They're trying to de-escalate it. And so far, they have done… they have made inroads. You know, we're all getting really scared now because there's no end in sight.

CO: And I'll just add just a little addendum that you mentioned about possibility there are weapons. The Ottawa… Chief Sloly said there is evidence of firearms or weapons coming into the trucker demonstration. And that's one of the major risks we're trying to mitigate. That was one of his statements. Andrea, I hope this does end soon. And, for your sake, everyone's sake, that is dealing with this in Ottawa. But I do appreciate speaking with you.

AC: Thank you, Carol. I appreciate it.

CO: Bye.

AC: Okay, bye.

CH: Andrea Colbert blocked a protester driving on her street with her neighbours earlier this week. We reached her in Ottawa.

[Music: Horns]

Free Flowers B.C. Hospice

CH: The North Okanagan Hospice Society in British Columbia gets a regular, weekly delivery. And when I say "regular", I mean "regular": it's been showing up every week for more than two decades. The Vernon Flower Shop sends flower bouquets to residents -- for free. Tanya Stilborn is the support service leader at the hospice. She spoke about the impact that gesture has had.

SOUNDCLIP

TANYA STILBORN: You know, when I calculated it out, it was over 13,000 arrangements that they would have sent over the past 21 years. And still, to this day, every Monday, the flowers arrive, and they're just so beautiful, and they have a little take on them that say to brighten your day. They get placed in our patient rooms. And the residents just love it. You know, they come for different reasons, either end of life care, or sometimes they're here for respite, or they're here for pain and symptom management. And so, those little bright spots in their day are really something to focus on. There's a lot of joy that lights up their face when they see a spring in this beautiful little arrangement every Monday.

CH: Jake Spoor is the owner of the Vernon Flower Shop. And here’s what he had to say about Tanya Stilborn's comments.

SOUNDCLIP

JAKE SPOOR: Well, it was very kind of her, that's for sure. We haven't looked for anything out of this other than just to make the patients there happy and lift their day and spirits a bit.

CHRIS WALKER: Take us back to the beginning. Why was… why did you start doing this?

JS: Well, frankly, we felt we should give flowers to an organization, just over 20 years ago. And looking around, one of the staff members came up why don't we do the Hospice Society? There were six beds there at the time. And, you know, there's no reason why we can't send something out there. The rooms are fairly bare at that time. It was quite new. And so we thought, well, why don’t we cheer people up a little bit down there, even if it's just for a few moments? And after that, it grew to 12. And that's right, we did 12. And if they go to 24, that's fine. We’ll go with 24. It’s just a joy. The staff really loves doing it.

CW: But flowers aren't cheap. How do you manage to continue to do this?

JS: Oh, we're a fairly large shop. And so it really, you know, we don't look at the cost. I mean, we all give to the community. Many organizations do. Many businesses do. And this is one of the things that we're involved in that we… we just like to do. And we just keep doing it.

CH: That was BC flower shop owner, Jake Spoor, speaking with Chris Walker, host of Daybreak Kelowna.

[Music: Jazz]

Ogopogo Out Of Snow

CH: A huge, grinning serpent has appeared on a woman's front lawn in Quesnel, British Columbia. And it's not going anywhere. Until it melts. Vanessa Hildreth's annual tradition of creating the mythical Ogopogo out of snow is back, and it's bigger than ever. The monster measures just over nine meters long and stands close to two meters high. Here's Vanessa Hildreth discussing her yearly winter project.

SOUNDCLIP

VANESSA HILDRETH: I have a giant snow serpent, which has three humps, a tail and the head section, with glowing eyeballs at night, which I picked up on Halloween. I got these little serpent eyeball-looking things I found at the dollar store, so I bought a few pairs of them. I figured they'd be really good for this.

SARAH PENTON: And it's all made out of snow, right? Snow and ice?

VH: Yeah, 100 per cent snow. It's really hard to get the bridge between, like, for the hump to actually stay. You’ll usually hear me out there cursing on the lawn, [SP laughs] trying to make it stand up straight.

SP: Tell me a little bit about how this creature came to be. This is not the first time you've done a giant sculpture in your front, hey?

VH: Yeah, no. I always seem to do the Snowgopogo every year, just because it gets better every year. [SP chuckles] And it’s kind of cool-looking. It's one of my more favourite things to do. It all started when I was 15 years old, and I went… [both chuckle] I went to Disneyland. And they had that topiary there. You know, like the plants all done as the animals?

SP: Yeah.

VH: And they had a serpent, and that was, like, empressed me to no end. And I thought to myself, someday I'm going to do that with snow. And then finally, I got to it.

SP: So what… how hard is it to do? I mean, this is an impressive structure… sculpture on your lawn?

VH: Well, technically it's not that hard, especially, like, if you have the snow that's actually sticky at the time. Although, like, we've had… it's been so cold here lately. It's been like really sugary snow, and it doesn't stick together. So I have to mix my own snow in the wheelbarrow.

SP: Whaaat?!

VH: With like… yeah, yeah. I find the cleanest snow I can find out back, bring it in the wheelbarrow to the front, throw some water in it and mush it around. And, you know, keep breaking it up until it's kind of the right consistency and then slather it on there.

SP: Why is it important that you do it? I mean, how long have you been doing this for? Since 2012, was it?

VH: Yeah, yeah.

SP: Why is it? Yeah, why do you want to do this?

VH: Well, because for one thing, I've got an apartment building directly across from my house. So it's like I've got a whole lot of neighbours. And… and they've kind of come to expect it. And I kind of like just doing it because people like to look at it, right? And I love to be outside. I'm an outside person. In the summer, I'm always outside. I’m not a real fan of the winter, but this at least gets me out there.

CH: That was Vanessa Hildreth speaking with the CBC's Sarah Penton on Radio West.

[Music: Surf rock]

Spotify Music Pulled

Guest: Danny Michel

CH: Artists continue to trickle away from one particular streaming platform. In the days since Neil Young, and then Joni Mitchell, decided to pull their catalogues from Spotify over objections to COVID misinformation on Joe Rogan's podcast, others have followed. Danny Michel is among those who've decided they want nothing more to do with the platform. He's been a working musician for three decades, and has had multiple Juno and Polaris Prize nominations. We reached him near Owen Sound, Ontario.

CO:Danny, why did you decide to take your music off Spotify?

DANNY MICHEL: It's kind of a big question. I mean, this isn't anything new to me. I mean, many years ago, I was, you know, showing some concerns for many reasons about the whole thing. But this is just kind of, like, reminded me of it again. People should know that many musicians maybe don't have this choice because they… if you're signed to a record deal, you're with a label and a contract. And so you don't get to just pick where you're… where your music gets… gets placed, you know, the label and stuff is doing that. So I didn't own my entire catalogue a year ago. So now I got it all back, and I am in a comfortable place now where I can choose where I want my music to be shared based on my values.

CO: But the issue of what Neil Young and Joni Mitchell have done is they are appalled by Joe Rogan being on Spotify, and being able to say all kinds of not true things about COVID and about vaccines. Was that behind your decision at all?

DM: It's a very small part of it. I'll tell you the big reason for me. I mean, we can… people can debate all day about Neil Young, and if Joe Rogan is promoting COVID-19 misinformation. But for me, what it was was seeing spot… how Spotify chose to react to Neil Young's request, which was, you know, you can have my music or Joe. And it seems like they just, you know, got out a calculator, did some math and chose to let Neil Young go. And they said clear and loud, we don't need you. And that's… that was kind of heartbreaking to me. I feel like, hell, I don't know if that's a home for my music or a safe place for art?

CO: Some of the remarks that Spotify Chief Executive Officer Daniel Ek has made about, he said that they… well, first of all, we know that they paid around $100 million U.S. for the exclusive rights to Rogan's program. And… but they said, oh, you know, we're looking at this. Maybe we need better balance on Spotify. We need to have other ideas, other… other viewpoints. Rogan himself, Mr. Rogan himself, is saying, maybe I got things wrong. Maybe I should have some other viewpoints. So it seems to some extent that they might be responding to the criticism. Does that mitigate anything for you?

DM Well, I mean, yeah, I mean, the fact that they're even saying anything means that they got their cage rattled. And I'd be happy to reconsider someday if they made changes and did things different. I mean, another thing about them that I've always thought was unhealthy, that I don't like is this thing where they post everyone’s streaming numbers and stuff. And… and I think that that… we've all learned from social media that this… you know, how many likes you have and things like that is not good for our mental health. And I don't think that's good for especially young artists maybe starting out. This is art. This isn't a horse race with a stopwatch. You know, it's supposed to be… you know what? I don't want to click on some artist and then see a number that subliminally influences me.

CO: What effect has Spotify had on especially up and coming artists? Because you… people, many who are sort of pulling off a Spotify, or want to and say they can't because they have… that’s the platform for them. They can't afford to, especially in COVID times when they can't even perform. But you hear even the ones who are staying wish they didn't have to. There seems to be a lot of loathing for Spotify, and because they're not making any money from it, right? Or not very much.

DM: Yeah, no. I mean, isn't that sad? You just said that they are staying and they don't want to. I mean, believe me, it was… it's been an excruciating decision for me. Like, it was really, really hard because I realized, you know, I look on there and I have thousands of subscribers that subscribe to my music, and my… my songs are in their playlists. And I love those people. I care a lot. I would be nothing without them. So, it's… it's really a tough decision. But I would hope that those people who listen to my music and know what I stand for and what I sing about what I understand. I just think there's other options.

CO: But what about… what about those young artists just starting out? I mean, what impact does… do streaming services have on people, young artists, people getting into the business? What's it like for them?

DM: I would imagine it's a really tough go, you know? I mean, it was a tough go in my generation of CDs, too. But you know, I'm… I feel lucky that I was in that generation because I… you know, my… I live in my home from the days of selling CDs, you know?

CO: Do you think this is just the kind of glitch, a moment in time that… that Neil Young and Joni Mitchell have raised this issue? Or do you think this is… is this a turning point of any kind? Do you think this will actually have an effect?

DM: I don't know. I think… I mean, I say this with full, full respect to Neil Young. But I mean, it's a… it's a little bit of a low-risk move for him because, you know, he's at the end… I don't want to say the end. I'm sorry. The tail end of… of a fabulous career, right? He's not putting out his first album right now. That's a fact. So, you know, if people like the Foo Fighters and Adele and, you know, if they started doing it, that that would be a different thing, I think.

CO: Basically, the big artists that are just starting out, the ones that are really… like Adele, what are the chances you think that they would actually make a move like this?

DM: I don't know. I mean, that… they would… they would, I think, have an impact. If they did that, it would be maybe a domino effect if this stuff like that. I mean, and this is how musicians can, like, you know, get some control of this back again.

CO: But also, do you think that it's also… there's a role for us, for audiences, for listeners that may be looking at what Spotify does to your morale? And what does to the industry. That maybe we're the ones that should be pulling the plug?

DM: Well, I mean, I know lots of people that are looking at this now and going, You know what? Yeah, I’m going to switch. I'm going to give my $9.99 a month to someone else. Where should I go? That's an option for everybody. I think that's happening a lot. So… but listen, this is… this is just all my personal decision. This is what's right for me. I'm not saying everyone should do this or… this is just what felt right for me.

CO: Danny, we'll leave it there, and we're going to be following this story. But I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

DM: Thank you, Carol.

CO: Bye.

CH: That was Canadian musician Danny Michel. We reached him just outside Owen Sound, Ontario.

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February 2, 2022 Episode Transcript

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