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The AIH Transcript For January 26, 2021

[hosts]Carol Off, Chris Howden[/hosts]

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden, this is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

CO: Marching orders. Canada has ordered embassy staff out of Ukraine, but questions remain about whether it will be ordering new troops to move in. We'll ask Defence Minister Anita Anand about her plans.

CH: Uncovering the truth. Williams Lake First Nation has discovered 93 potential burial sites at a former residential school in British Columbia. And the project's lead archaeologist says the work is just beginning.

CO: Heart on its sleeve. A Canadian Armed Forces medic who lost his best friend in Afghanistan says having his beloved Oilers shirt to remember him by is an unexpected gift.

CH: Face Off. There are a lot of interviews in the As It Happens vault. But how many of them does my intrepid co-host actually remember? Tonight, we set out to find out -- in the first instalment of a recurring nightmare for Carol.

CO: [chuckling] Holding court. Tennis star and Paralympian Dylan Alcott is named Australian of The Year -- the same day he won his Australian Open quad wheelchair semifinal.

CH: And… letter perfect. A California teacher says a world-famous word game that involves guessing letter combinations to form five-letter words is helping her class understand language in a whole new way.

CH: As It Happens, the Wednesday edition. Radio that commends such strength of characters.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Williams Lake First Nation Graves, Carol Off Quiz

Williams Lake First Nation Grave

Guest: Whitney Spearing

CH: Willie Sellars says the journey has led his investigative team into "the darkest recesses of human behaviour." Yesterday, the chief of Williams Lake First Nation in B.C. and his colleagues revealed the preliminary findings of their geophysical survey at the former St. Joseph's Mission Residential School. And nearby Onward Ranch. A warning: our coverage tonight contains discussion of violence, burials and human remains, including details that you may find disturbing. Here's some of what Chief Sellars said during yesterday's announcement.

SOUNDCLIP

CHIEF WILLIE SELLARS: We cannot afford to have another generation grow up without understanding the truth of the residential school system and the impact it has had on First Nations people. We need to heal. At St. Joseph's Mission, survivor stories tell us that many children remain unaccounted for, even after our geophysical and archival work is complete. And that is very scary and disturbing. Their bodies were cast into the river, left at the bottom of lakes, tossed like garbage into incinerators. For those children, there will be no headstone, no unmarked grave, no small fragment of bone to be forensically analyzed. For those families, there will be no closure. It is for those children and families that we grieve the most.

CH: Archaeologist Whitney Spearing is leading the investigative team at the former St. Joseph's Mission Residential School in B.C. She's also the manager of title and rights for Williams Lake First Nation.

CO: Whitney, I know that in addition to the geophysical work, you have been interviewing survivors or descendants of survivors as part of the investigation; what have they been telling you?

WHITNEY SPEARING: Yeah, they have been telling us a lot of different stories in terms of their truth and instances that have occurred to them as a survivor at St. Joseph's Mission. A lot of the stories that we are hearing have common threads. They've definitely related stories of starvation, of torture, physical and sexual abuse. And further to what Chief Sellars has said, there definitely have been accounts of children going missing, sometimes in the night. Definitely, children having to dig graves for potentially other children who are buried on site. And that definitely there have been cases where there's been child pregnancies at the mission. In an attempt to cover up those pregnancies, the infants were sometimes removed from the care of the mothers through transferring them to unwed mothers’ homes. And in cases, they were put into the incinerator.

CO: This residential school existed for almost 100 years, didn't it? And closed only in the 1980s. And it's probably one of the most notorious of the residential schools. And that's saying a lot, isn't it? And because of that, there… there were investigations over those years that revealed some of what you're hearing from those testimonies. Give us a sense of the history of this institution?

WS: So the institution opened in 1891, and it closed in 1981. So St. Joseph's operated for roughly 90 years in the place that it is now. Throughout that time, definitely the earlier years, the school was operated as an industrial school. And so, the children who attended that institution were part of a slave labour exercise. They were predominantly doing things like rearing cattle, splitting timber, doing hard labour tasks associated with the running of the ranch and the farm in that area. So that's really the hallmark of the very early years at that institution. Into the 50s, 60s and 70s, we move sort of into a chapter where different heads of the institution came into play. And we move into a chapter that's more indicative of sexual abuse and really systemic and ongoing sexual abuse of children at that institution.

CO: And unlike many of the other schools, there were actual people who are convicted; church leadership members were convicted of sexual offences against the children. This was… is part of what we know of what was going on because of those convictions and because… because of investigations into the deaths of… of some children. Earlier, Duncan Sticks, I think, and Augustine Allen -- two children who died. One froze to death, the other from… from a suicide pact. Is that right?

WS: That's correct. Yeah. So Duncan Sticks was eight years old, and he froze outside alone from exposure. And he was running away from the residential school. There was actually an inquiry into his death and an inquest at the time. And the school basically didn't change any of its policies and saw that their disciplinarian was acting in an okay manner in their eyes. Augustine Allen was part of a suicide pact between students at that time. They ingested poison water hemlock. And sadly, he was the only one to pass as a result of that. But certainly, the other children got very ill. Again, there was multiple letters and lots of correspondence between the parents and the institution at that time, and no clear action was taken. So it's very saddening.

CO: So now, leading to now, to today, where you have identified 93 potential burial sites at the residential school grounds. Can you tell us what you've discovered?

WS: So what we have discovered to date is 93 reflections that are indicative of human burials or graves -- unmarked graves. There is a historic cemetery on the property, and so we are recognizing that fully. Some of those graves may be associated with the cemetery. However, at this time, we do know that 50 out of the 93 are outside of the cemetery boundaries. And so therefore, we deem them to be not associated with that cemetery. So it's a very complex situation. The school operated for more than 90 years, as I said, and so dozens of buildings in that time went up and came down. There's multiple subsurface features that are showing up on the ground-penetrating radar as well as the magnetometer. And certainly, the work is not complete. The area that we've conducted the search on to date, the geophysical work, is 14 hectares. And the investigation area we've identified for the phase one investigation is 470 hectares.

CO: And you use the word reflections to describe what you found. Why is that important?

WS: It's important in terms of our discourse. The way that we talk about these things in Canadian society, when we talk about anomalies, certainly, that is a true technical term and one that we can use to describe what we're seeing on the GPR. But an anomaly really is something that is unexpected or as anomalous. And in this case, we did expect to find graves, unmarked graves. And so, anomaly isn't really the right term. And so we've really tried to take that very seriously. There's a lot of discussion, obviously, in Canadian society right now about the potential for mass graves. What does anomalies really mean? And so, we're trying to be very clear and very concise in our description of what we're actually talking about.

CO: We've heard from many families that the… these discoveries that we're getting through the… the geophysical work are… these are things that Indigenous people knew. They knew that their kids didn't come home, right? They knew that kids disappeared. They knew that these things occurred. They've been saying for decades that this is what happened. And so, what's the importance of… of discovering this? Who benefits, I guess, from knowing the truth of what Indigenous people have known for a very long time?

WS: Yeah, absolutely. And again, very similar to Tk’emlúps, where survivors at St. Joseph's absolutely knew. They have known for years. And in many, many instances, they have reported to the Indian agent at the time, to the RCMP, to the coroner's office. All of which who made no action on their behalf. So the importance of… of this information and coming forward with the reflections and the results is to validate what those people have been saying, what those survivors have been saying for years. And they have been heard, but they have not been believed. And so that's a real critical step in healing not only for those communities but healing as a Nation. We need to listen to the survivors. And if the science is a tool that can back up the survivors statements, then we absolutely should be using it. But critically, we should be listening to those survivor stories because they are pointing us in the right direction, and they have that firsthand evidence, that firsthand witnessing of these events that did occur.

CO: Whitney, we will be following your work for new developments in what you're… what you're finding. And I appreciate speaking with you today. Thank you.

WS: Excellent. Thank you so much for having me. Appreciate it.

CO: Bye.

CH: That was archaeologist Whitney Spearing talking about the search for unmarked graves at the former residential school near Williams Lake First Nation. We reached Ms. Spearing in Williams Lake, B.C. You can find more on that story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih. And residential school survivors, and anyone else affected, can call the 24-hour national crisis line. The number is: 1-866-925-4419.

[Music: Indie rock]

Dylan Alcott

CH: Paralympian and disability activist Dylan Alcott is set to retire after this year. But if yesterday was any indication, he's going out with a bang. First he won his semi-final match at the Australian Open -- leaving him one win away from taking home that title for the eighth time. And then came the announcement from Australian Prime Minister Scott Morrison that Mr. Alcott had been named Australian of the Year. Dylan Alcott accepted the honour at an event last night in Canberra.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: A standing ovation]

DYLAN ALCOTT: Thank you. I think standing ovations are one of the most ironic things in the world, by the way. [crowd laughs] But I'll take them, all right [chuckling]? I honestly thought I had no chance. I honestly didn't. I got off the court at 1:00 today. I won my semi-final. [clapping from thew crowd] I thought there was no chance, then I got here and I saw this really good looking ramp. And I thought I might have a chance here! [laughter from the crowd] That's a good looking ramp! I've been in a… I've been in a wheelchair my whole life. I was born with a tumour wrapped around my spinal cord that was cut out when I was only a couple of days old. And I've known nothing but having a disability. And if I'm honest with you, I cannot tell you how much I used to hate myself. I used to hate having a disability. [beginning to cry] I hated it so much. I hated being different. And, you know, I didn't want to be here anymore. I really didn't. And whenever I’d turn on the TV or the radio or the newspaper, I never saw anybody like me. And whenever I did, it was a road safety saftey ad, where someone drink-drives, has a car accident and what's the next thing? Someone like me in tears because their life was over. And I thought to myself, that's not my life. But I believed that was going to be my life. And I'm so lucky that I had one of the best family… some of the best friends and my beautiful partner, Chantelle, and my whole team who told me that I was worthy, and I was allowed to be loved. And, you know, when I reached the end of my teenage years, I started seeing people like me. I also stand on the shoulders of giants. Not literally. [laughter from the crowd] I still can't stand. But Paralympic athletes like Louise Sauvage, Kurt Fearnley, Danni Di Toro and people like that are the reason that I got into sport. Advocates like Stella Young. They paved the way so I can be here tonight. They should have been Australian of the Year as well. And I'm honestly so honoured to be up here, and it's because of them, and everybody in my life, that I sit here as a proud man with a disability tonight. I love my disability. It is the best thing that ever happened to me. It really is, and I am so thankful for the life that I get to live. And I could get stem cell research and all this stuff. And you can honestly not pay me enough money in the whole world to ever do it because I love the person that I am in the life that I get to live. And I'm the luckiest guy in this country, easily. Before I go, I just want to leave you with this. One of the number one questions I get asked by people is Dyl, mate, what is your advice to a young person with a disability, or anyone with a disability, so they can start living their life? And my advice is this: You don't need my advice. You know what to do. And you’ve had people telling you what to do your whole life. But my advice is to you, non-disabled people. It's time for you to challenge your unconscious biases, leave your negative perceptions at the door and lift your expectation of what you think people with disability can do. Because it’s always more than you think.

CH: Courtesy of TSN, that’s Paralympian and tennis star Dylan Alcott accepting the title of Australian of The Year last night in Canberra.

[Music: Folk]

Carol Off Quiz

CH: Well Carol, we made it through the first week. It’s hard to believe it was just last week that you shared your big news. How are you feeling?

CO: It seems like an eternity, but no, fine. Everything is… it's on course, I'd say. We're just going through this, right? And you guys are all set to find ways of embarrassing me, I understand, over the next weeks.

CH: We consider it celebrating you

CO: Okay.

CH: Tomato, tomato

CO: Um-hmm.

CH: Now, the whole day last Tuesday feels like a bit of a blur to me, more so than most days. But I do remember one thing you said. Reynold, please roll the clip.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: I have stayed for nearly 16 years, and I have done my estimation close to 25,000 interviews. [chuckling] And I probably remember every one of them.

CH: That is quite a claim -- 16 years, 25,000 some odd interviews, and not a single file missing from the old filing cabinet upstairs, huh?

CO: [chuckling] Well, first of all, I mean, you know, that I’m not any good at math, so someone else should actually count all of those. It could be even more than 25,000. But, yeah, they're… well, why? Where are we going with this?

CH: Well, we thought that we would put you and your alleged steel trap mind to the test in a segment that we're going to call “Where do you get off, Off?”

CO: [chuckling] No!!!

CH: You open the floodgates on the off jokes as soon as you said you were leaving.

CO: No!

CH: Yes.

CO: The flood… the… the floodgates opened when I was born an Off, I have to tell you. You can't surprise me. Oh, what. What.

CH: So each week, leading up to your final show, we're going to select one interview from your library of greatest hits. They're all greatest hits. We'll play you a series of clips from that interview and ask you to guess the topic after each clip. So it's pretty straightforward. But I should warn you, each week the clips will get progressively harder because we're going to go further back into your 16-year archive. Any questions before we begin?

CO: Okay, I only have to identify the story?

CH: Yes.

CO: Not the year and the date and the guest’s name?

CH: Well, if you know them, which you might judging by your own claim.

CO: All right.

CH: But no, story will be fine.

CO: Okay. Well, let's do it.

CH: All right. Enough chitchat. Hit the theme, Reynold. Let's start round one.

[Music: A vaguely island holiday-sounding instrumental]

CO: Close to 25,000 interviews, and I probably remember every one of them. I probably remember every one of them.

CO: Ouch! [CH chuckles] I regret that now. I really regret saying that. And I did say that. Now I remember that’s… oi! Okay.

CH: Well, Okay. I mean, you know, this is the danger of ad libbing. [CO chuckles] Now listen carefully, Carol. This is from an interview you did three years ago. Roll the clip, please.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: So what's weird about it?

MAN: Well, first of all, let me tell you that this has been known for hundreds of years. In fact, probably Aristotle even saw it.

CH: And start the clock! Carol, name that interview.

[Music: A tense instrumental]

CO: Oh my gosh. Okay, so this is Aristotle. Just… so this is really old, right? And it's older than my brain, which is really struggling with this right now.

[Music ends]

CH: Oh, time's up! Carol, do you have an answer? [laughing]

CO: No, I don't!

[Sound: A crowd goes “awwwwwwwe” a sad horn goes “mwah mwah”]

CO: Oh!

CH: I really thought that the Aristotle reference would give it away. But don't worry, you have two more chances to get this right. So we're going to listen to that clip again. But this time we're going to add a little more clue at the end.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: So what's weird about it?

MAN: Well, first of all, let me tell you that this has been known for hundreds of years. In fact, probably Aristotle even saw it, the pooping.

CH: The pooping!

CO: The pooping!

CH: That narrows it down because only 40 per cent of the interviews that you've done are about pooping. And once again, Carol, name that interview.

[Music: That tense instrumental is back]

CO: He's implying that Aristotle might have seen this poop?!

CH: Yes. Or the thing that poops.

CO: So… the thing that poops. It’s not human poop… in a cave, it's in a cave. Aristotle's cave. Of course, he’d be in a cave. It’s Aristotle!

[ Sound: Mario dies at the end sound and the “awwwww” is back]

CH: But if I remember that parable correctly, there is a lot of pooping in it. [both chuckle] Now, I could see why that may not have jogged your memory. Admittedly, there is probably more than one As It Happens interview that combines Aristotle and poop. This is your final chance. We're going to give you another clip. This one's for all the marbles.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: All this waste builds up, as it does, inside this creature. And it has no place to go. It starts pushing on the outer skin and then, poof, there's an anus?

MAN: Yes, that's right.

CH: [CO laughs] Poof, there's an anus.

CO: Did I really say that? It was a real question that I posed?

CH: [laughing] Well, yeah, you might be surprised to hear some of the questions. I am every single night. [CO chuckles] So we're going to give you another clock.

[Music: The clock song is back]

CH: And have at it!

CO: Oh, here it comes again, this music is so tense. I'm just chewing on my nails. I do know that three years ago, we did do an interview about an animal that develops an anus in order to poop. And it's just this little creature. And it has no anus until it poops, and then it goes. But what's it called? I don't know. I don't remember. That's… isn't that enough to know that I did an interview about an animal that develops an anus?

CH: That is enough to know.

[Sound: An audience claps and cheers and a video game winning sound plays]

CH: Congratulations. Phenomenal.

CO: Give me that. Give me something here.

CH: We will give you that. You got it. That was from your truly unforgettable, clearly, [CO chuckles] 2019 interview with Sidney Tam, author of a study about the warty comb jelly, also known as a sea walnut. [laughing] Those names have nothing to do with each other. Congratulations, Carol.

CO: Well, thank you, I guess.

CH: Enjoy your victory, but stay sharp. As I mentioned, in next week's quiz, we're going to go back even further into your archive. But now, to refresh everyone's memory, here is that interview with Sidney Tamm.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: Mr. Tamm I know you spent a fair bit of time studying the messy business end of the warty comb jelly. So what's weird about it?

SIDNEY TAMM: Well first of all let me tell you that they have a through-gut. And this has been known for hundreds of years. In fact probably Aristotle even saw it -- the pooping. They have a through-gut which means they have a mouth and an anus -- and the material, the prey that it eats, goes all the way through from one opening to the other and it's then excrete it after the waste is processed. And the strange thing that I've found is that the anus does not seem to be a permanent structure. It appears before defecation begins, and disappears afterward.

CO: What! So you're saying basically that there's an anus only when the critter needs it?

ST: That's right.

CO: At what point does the anus show up?

ST: You have to observe these animals very carefully, immobilise, so they're not swimming. Otherwise you couldn't focus on anything for a long time. And in an animal that can't move and you can watch it under the microscope without it getting away -- what you see first is that before defecation begins there's no hole there, there is no anal structure visible in the anal canal which is where the poop accumulates. And then all of a sudden an opening appears in the anal canal which is pressing against the outside skin of the animal almost like a chimney sticking out. And this, what I think is tissue fusion between the outside surface and the anal canal surface, gives you a hole or an orifice through which the waste is then expelled. And you can see it streaming out. And the pore gets larger and larger -- big clumps can now go out from the anal canal until all the waste is expelled. And then the pore closes slowly and seals off the inside digestive compartment from the outside. And you have no anus until it poops again.

CO: It just disappears?

ST: Yes.

CO: So all of this waste builds up, as it does, inside this creature -- and it has no place to go, and it starts pushing on the outer skin, and then poof...there's an anus.

ST: Yes that's right.

CO: And then they poop and then poof...and it is gone.

ST: Yes. And so it's different...

CO: Yeah [laughs].

ST: ...from all higher animals. You know even when we're not pooping our anus is still there. It's closed by muscles -- sphincter muscles -- but the structure is still there. It is just closed.

CO: Besides the warty comb jelly have you seen this -- I guess -- this intermittent anus in any other creatures?

ST: I haven't looked.

CO: Now were you looking to see if there was a kind of transient anus on this creature or did you just happen to notice it?

ST: Oh no. No -- I wasn't looking for it because there's no indication in the literature. All the scientific literature says that the anus is a permanent structure. And in pictures of ctenophores, the anus is always drawn as a closed hole -- even during interludes between defecations. So in a non-defecating ctenophore -- in the literature you see a dot or a circle showing the anus or the anuses if it has two and it's brachia that they're showing.

CO: So you were studying this creature and then suddenly you notice: Woah! Where did the anus go?

ST: Yeah. Well, it's that way with everything.

CO: [Laughs] Well for you maybe.

ST: No, you know it's like Yogi Berra -- and the New York Yankees catcher you used to say, he said, "You can observe a lot just by looking." And that's only that's what I did.

CO: I thought you were going to tell me that Yogi Berra had some comment about anuses disappearing.

ST: He probably does. But they are unprintable.

CO: [Laughs] Now what would be the purpose in terms of why would it have this kind of transient anus?

ST: Well to tell you the truth, I have no idea. It's too early to say if it's a stage in the evolution of a permanent anus or a permanent mouth. I don't know if it is a stage in evolution or just like a dead end.

CO: [Laughs] So to speak.

ST: You know it's like right -- I compare it to a magician who does a magic trick sort of, "now you see it...now you don't.".

CO: Well if nothing else -- it's a pretty good party trick.

ST: Yes it would be. Someone told me there's a band -- a rock band -- called Transient Anus.

CO: [Laughs] Mr. Tamm it's really fascinating talking to you. Thanks so much.

ST: Thank you for inviting me.

CH: From 2019, Carol's conversation with Sidney Tamm, author of a study about the warty comb jelly -- a creature whose anus disappears. And if there's an interview that you think might stump Carol, let us know. You can call our Talkback line: 416-205-5687. We'd love to hear your voice. Or send us an email: aih@cbc.ca. You can also reach us on Twitter and Facebook: @cbcasithappens.

[Music: Hip-hop beat]

Part 2: Ukraine: Minister Anand, California Wordle Class

Ukraine: Minister Anand

Guest: Anita Anand

CH: Justin Trudeau has responded to Ukraine's request for help. With the White House warning of an imminent Russian invasion, the government in Kyiv had asked Canada for weapons. Today, as the United States and Russia continue to negotiate security arrangements in the region, the Canadian prime minister announced a package of support. It includes money for humanitarian and development work as well as an expansion of the Canadian Forces training mission in Ukraine -- to include an additional 60 Canadian military personnel. The prime minister also announced that Canada's Minister of National Defence, Anita Anand, will be travelling to Ukraine in the coming days. We reached Minister Anand in Ottawa.

CO: Minister Anand Ukraine asked Your government, in addition to all the other support we've just listed, they wanted weapons, lethal military support. You have turned them down for that. But have you ruled it out?

ANITA ANAND: Well, Carol, thanks for having me on. Let's just be clear today we announced the extension of Operation Unifier for three years -- until March 2025. We also announced the expansion of the operation in personnel and in scope. In the coming days, an additional 60 troops will be on the ground with the ability to surge to 400. We have trained over 30,000 Ukrainian troops, including 2,000 members of the Ukrainian National Guard. So extending this training mission expanding its scope is extremely important for Canada and for Ukraine. I was in touch with Defence Minister Reznikov today to share this news with him, and he was extremely happy. We will be discussing the details of it when I visit Ukraine in the coming days.

CO: Okay, I just want to get you just to answer my question, though. Are you ruling out sending lethal weapons to Ukraine?

AA: in addition to the items that I have just mentioned, we are continuing to consider the requests that are coming to us from Ukraine and monitoring the evolving, concerning and fluid situation. So we are still in discussions about that. We are… we are sending non-lethal aid, Carol. And that includes equipment such as communications systems used for field operations, mobile field hospitals, explosive disposal equipment, medical kits used for military field operations and night vision goggles. So our aid is comprehensive. And as I mentioned in an earlier show, we have $120 million already committed to Ukraine for its economic development. Again, very comprehensive, but we will continue to monitor the situation and the requests that we are receiving.

CO: The White House says that a Russian invasion is imminent. Do you agree?

AA: At the current time, we are very much focused on a diplomatic solution. As my colleague, Minister Joly, has said, the recently launched diplomatic process offers Russia two options: they can choose meaningful dialogue or severe consequences, for example, in the area of economic or financial sanctions. We will continue to call on Russia to de-escalate and engage in meaningful dialogue. We'll continue to work with our NATO allies to coordinate our responses to deter aggression. Any further incursion by the Russian military will yield serious consequences, as I mentioned, including coordinated sanctions across our NATO partners.

CO: And Mélanie Joly… Mélanie Joly also said that Canada is preparing for Russian escalation and a possible invasion. But you're going to be meeting the Defence Minister of Ukraine, Oleksiy Reznikov, when you go to Ukraine. He said… he gave a message to Ukrainian parliament on Tuesday. He said there are no grounds to believe that Russia would attack soon. He said that Russian troops were not in formations that suggested an imminent move toward the border. He said, don't worry, sleep well. No need to have your bags packed. So why is Canada preparing for Russian escalation and possible invasion?

AA: Well, I will be speaking with Minister Reznikov in detail when I visit Ukraine in the coming days. But what I can say is that we are deeply concerned by the ongoing Russian aggression in and around Ukraine. Ukraine's security is Europe's security and the world's security, in fact. Russia must de-escalate, show transparency in its military activities and engage in meaningful dialogue. And any military incursion into Ukraine will have serious consequences, Carol, as I just mentioned, including coordinated sanctions. And the G7 has been very clear in declaring that Russia should be in no doubt that further military aggression against Ukraine would have massive consequences and severe costs in response. We are going to continue to work with our allies to coordinate our response to deter… to deter aggression. And I will be having a continued conversation with Minister Reznikov. I spoke with him yesterday. I spoke with him last week. I communicated with him today. And this is an ongoing and evolving situation where we need to be very coordinated.

CO: But again, also from the President of Ukraine, Volodymyr Zelensky, who said as well if he doesn't agree with Western assessments that such an assault could be imminent. So why does Canada have that impression?

AA: It's important to remember that we are coordinating with our allies in terms of our response. And that is based on information that is generally well known relating to the presence of Russian troops at the border as well as in Belarus. So that is one thing that we must acknowledge. But in addition to that, I want to stay focused on our announcement today that regardless of the situation in Ukraine, Canada will continue to support Ukrainian troops by assisting with the training missions. We have trained over 30,000 Ukrainian soldiers. That is significant. And when I speak with my NATO allies, they are universally of the view that that training is important for the stability, the security and the sovereignty of the Ukrainian government and the Ukrainian people as a country.

CO: But you say that the solution is… it should be diplomacy, it should be through talks. And you're talking at the same time about a significant expansion and extension of our military mission in Ukraine. You said we have a very large footprint. So if… and you also said that we're taking a leading role in Ukraine. And so, what role are we actually playing in the diplomatic talks? Is this between Washington and Moscow? Do we have any role at all in something that, obviously, we have a big stake in?

AA: Well, let's be clear, this is not a combat mission that I announced today. This is a mission to ensure that the Ukrainian troops have the access to training and training capabilities that the Canadian Armed Forces can so well offer. I will say that my colleague, Minister Joly, just concluded a trip to Ukraine, France and Belgium. And on her trip, she met with several of her European counterparts to reaffirm Canada's steadfast support for Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity. And continued to stress the importance of a diplomatic solution. She emphasized that Russia must de-escalate, show transparency in its military activities and engage in meaningful dialogue. So there is this work for dialogue, for negotiation, for diplomacy that is continuing. And our announcement today further supports the Ukrainian military by offering additional training resources and non-lethal aid.

CO: We've heard from President Zelensky in Ukraine that he is reassuring his own people that a Russian invasion is less likely than some sort of political unrest. He has talked about a possibility of a coup. He did that just months ago. Concerns that there is… there's going to be instability within the political structure. Is Canada responding actually to a security crisis in Ukraine? Or are we being drawn into a political crisis?

AA: Carol, as the prime minister has stated, any movement of Russian troops into Ukraine would be unacceptable and would be met with a clear response from the international community. And I have been clear that Canada is ironclad in its support of Ukraine's sovereignty, its territorial integrity, its independence. And I'm well aware of the concerning reports from the United Kingdom of Russian destabilization efforts in Ukraine. Every day, I am receiving updates on the situation and our Chief of Defence Staff, Wayne Eyre, and I are very, very engaged in terms of the situation in Ukraine on the ground. Russia has long attempted to destabilize Ukraine through a range of hybrid efforts. And as I mentioned, Russia essentially has two options here: they can engage in meaningful dialogue. Or be subject to swift and severe consequences, such as financial sanctions. And you can trust that I will continue to actively engage with our partners, with our allies as part of the coordinated efforts to push for de-escalation in the furtherance of the international rules-based order, which has been in place since the end of the Second World War, which has allowed countries to live in peace and security under democratic regimes. That's what's at stake here, that's what we're aiming to protect, and that's why diplomacy is so very important at this moment.

CO: We will leave it there. And, of course, we will be following these developments. Minister Anand, thank you.

AA: Thanks, Carol, and all the best.

CH: Anita Anand is the Minister of National Defence. We reached her in Ottawa.

[Music: Ambient]

Canadian Veteran Oilers Shirt

CH: Matthew Heneghan is a Canadian veteran whose best friend, a fellow medic named Colin Wilmot, died in Afghanistan. This Christmas, he received an unexpected gift that brought up memories of Mr. Wilmot -- who was 24 years old when he was killed by an explosive device. Mr. Wilmot was a huge Edmonton Oilers fan. The gift was one of his old Oilers shirts. Now, Mr. Heneghan is hoping the team will help him honour his late friend.

SOUNDCLIP

MATTHEW HENEGHAN: With a guy like Colin, right? Somebody that I really consider a very dear friend and somebody that I confided in with… with a lot of my problems and a lot of my demons. And even though he was a young guy, he had a kind of an old and experienced soul. And he was always very empathetic and kind and gave me a lot of advice. So his death really… it really struck hard, and it's something that, you know, on his passing anniversaries and things like that --

MARK CONNOLLY: Yeah.

MH: And on… on Remembrance Day and stuff that, yeah, it's… it's pretty difficult.

MC: Now, tell us about the gift you got this past Christmas?

MH: Yeah, so throughout my struggles, I ended up writing a book a couple of years ago. And unbeknown to me, another Canadian soldier who did deploy on a different rotation and didn't know Colin deployed and was actually subsequently assigned to Colin's bunk and… in Afghanistan. And in the… in the area in the bunk area was Colin's T-shirt -- and Edmonton Oilers shirt that he brought with him to Afghanistan. Because, like I said, he jumped in headfirst being an Oilers fan. So he brought it with him, and he used to wear it under his under his armour and stuff when he was on certain missions and when permitted. And so they left it there as sort of a sort of an homage to him. But this soldier knew that the base was going through some restructuring after the Edmonton-based soldiers left. So he didn't want it to get lost in the sands of time, so to speak. So he brought it home with him, with the intent of giving it to family. And his family had ultimately said, maybe hand it off to somebody else that might… might be able to find some better usage for it. And so he held on to it from 2009 to just this past Christmas. After reading my book, he learned that I had known Colin, and he decided to mail it to me with a letter about his story and about how he became in possession of the shirt. And then said that he thinks having it with me would be a better place.

CH: That was Matthew Heneghan, speaking with Mark Connolly, the host of Edmonton A.M.

[Music: Acoustic guitar]

California Wordle Class

Guest: Christina Nosek

CH: Last night, we were introduced to Josh Wardle -- a 30-year-old equipment salesman from Saskatchewan. He seemed like a nice guy. But not necessarily newsworthy, beyond the fact that his name is Josh Wardle. Josh Wardle of Regina has been getting attention because he shares a name Josh Wardle of Brooklyn -- the creator of the wildly popular online game Wordle. Everyone seems to be in on the Wordle craze these days, and that includes Christina Nosek's Grade 5 students. Recently, she posted a picture of a laminated poster she made for her classroom. Ms. Nosek is an author and teacher in California. And we reached her in Stanford.

CO: Christina, first of all, when did you start playing Wordle?

CHRISTINA NOSEK: So I actually started playing Wordle just a few days ago.

CO: [chuckling] Oh, really?

CN: Yes!

CO: So, did you know about it? Or did you just hear about it for the first time a few days ago?

CN: Well, it was interesting. I saw a bunch of my Twitter contacts posting these squares, and finally, I asked somebody, what is this game? And they told me. And I thought, wow, that sounds interesting. I'm… I'm going to give it a try myself.

CO: So now, what made you want to bring it to your fifth graders?

CN: Well, you noticed… I realized… I think it must have been maybe my second or third day playing; I realized, wow, I'm doing a lot of deep thinking about letter-sound combinations. I'm doing a lot of thinking about what letters work together and why and which ones don't. And I thought, okay, this is the type of thinking I want my students to be doing. We need to play this game! So that's exactly why I brought it to my fifth graders.

CO: But you didn't bring it online, right? What did you do?

CN: No! So I don't want to bring it online because I don't want to… after a pandemic learning and being online for so long, we try to do much of our learning offline. So I just decided to make exactly what it looked like on my phone onto a piece of chart paper. [chuckling] And that's what I did, and that's how we play each day.

CO: Wow! And so, they're up… they're playing it together, right? If you're on the screen, then they can… you disappear down that rabbit hole, don't you, of just looking at your own screen? Now, all the kids are watching it together or sharing their ideas?

CN: Exactly. So what we're doing is we're playing it together. I've been leading it so far. I'm actually going to turn it over to students to lead today. But the nice thing is because we're all playing it together, looking at the same board and the kids are actually writing down and playing with the words on paper and pencil that they have themselves, that they each have. After they're playing with the words and trying to figure out what some of the word combinations might be, we have these great discussions, these group discussions about which letters work together, which letters don't, why, what sounds do they make? Why does this work? Why doesn't that work? And it's just been so powerful.

CO: Okay, so you talk about what? Spelling and language or what?

[Sound: A school bell]

CO: Oh, is that your bell?

CN: Yeah. Sorry, that's our school bell.

CO: Okay. Are they --

CN: That bell's signalling kids they can go play now after eating. So, yes.

CO: Oh, okay. I was waiting for kids to come streaming into your class there.

CN: No, no. Nope. I'm still on my own for a bit.

CO: [chuckling] Okay.

CN: So, spelling, language, both. And also, what's really important is application. Because the thing about Wordle, it's words in isolation. So a lot of it, too, is how can we apply this to our writing? What do you know about this word? Can we use this word in sentences? Kids are even finding the words in books they're reading and talking about them with each other, which is the most important thing. That's what we want. We want them to use the words in application, in context, not just in isolation.

CO: Right. And I just… it just struck me that maybe there are still possibly one or two people out there who have not been told about Worlds. So maybe just tell them, tell people how you… how you play it?

CN: Oh, sure! Okay. So what Wordle is, is it's a blank board with six rows. And that you have six guesses to get a five-letter word. And when you guess your first word, if you have any correct letters in the correct place, that will light up green. If you have a correct letter, but in the wrong place, it'll light up yellow. And if you pick a word… or excuse me, you pick a letter that is not in the word, it will light up I think it's grey. And then you just keep playing until you get the word until you get it correct.

CO: Do your kids love words as much as you do?

CN: Um, I think they do. I think they do. They love words. They love reading. They love writing. Absolutely.

CO: It's interesting about Wordle that, In this New York Times interview with Josh Wardle, he says that… because you know that this is not… there are no ads or banners, no windows pop up asking you for money. And he had said that I think people have to appreciate this is… this is just for fun. It's not trying to do anything shady with your data or your eyeballs. [chuckle] It's just for fun. So what does that say to you that somebody would actually do something just in order to engage people and not to get something out of it?

CN: I mean, I love that. Isn't that what we should all be doing? Just doing something for fun, doing something to challenge us, doing something, to get us thinking, to get us talking. And I mean, he probably didn't realize it at the time, but doing something to bring us all together. So it's amazing. I wish we had more of that.

CO: Since you have posted your own game, the way you're doing it, with… with the board and the kids in the classroom, what reaction have you had?

CN: It's been unbelievable. I mean, my students love it. That's the most important reaction, right? The ones who were not yet playing with their families at home now are. But also, I mean, just this has really blown up on… on teacher social media. People love it. People are sharing it. People want to do it. You know, it's… it's been… it's been pretty, pretty amazing. And I just… I just hope it transfers over to student reading and writing because that really is the point of learning words.

CO: Now, I know the kids are going to come streaming in very, very soon.

CN: [chuckling] Yes.

CO: But what's today's word?

CN: I haven't even thought of it yet! [both chuckle] But… because we're going to play after lunch. But yesterday's word was fudge.

CO: Okay, well, that's lots of fun, isn't it?

CN: [chuckling] Yes.

CO: Christina, it's great to talk to you. Thank you.

CN: Thank you so much.

CO: Bye.

CN: Bye-bye.

CH: That's California Grade 5 teacher and author Christina Nosek. We reached her in Stanford, California.

[Music: Indie rock “Rubber Ducky”]

Part 3: Chernobyl Eagles, Gatineau Curling Rink

Un-Vax Family

CH: When Kelsey MacDonald was young, her parents taught her that medicine was not to be trusted -- that only God could heal. Growing up in Alberta, she knew her family was against vaccinations. And she watched as her parents opted not to vaccinate any of her younger siblings. Mistrust of vaccines -- and of the healthcare system in general -- is something she's since had to slowly unlearn. And Ms. MacDonald says that process began with a single conversation.

SOUNDCLIP

KELSEY MACDONALD: It was my third child, and I moved to Malfort, which was away from Alberta, where my parents are. And so, I kind of had to make my own choices a bit. And it was my third kid, and I was a single mom at the time. And so I had my hands full. And so I needed a little bit of help. I think it was my oldest two, I noticed some speech delays. And so, I wanted to get them in speech therapy. And Public Health nurses just noticed that I had a young daughter. And so they asked about, you know, is she booked in for her… her routine vaccinations. And I said, you know, I'm not, I'm not doing that. And she was the first person to ask, oh, you know, can I ask why? And so I explained, you know, growing up, we didn’t and we’re okay. And I heard things about autism. So I'm just… I'm not comfortable getting vaccinated. And, you know, in a very unjudgemental way, she just shared some papers with me, and she kind of continued sending things in the mail and reaching out to me and saying, hey, have you read what I sent you? And just, she continued, building that relationship of trust and giving me truth. And just very unjudgementally and very kindly, just sharing… sharing facts with me. And that ultimately changed my mind. And even though I was still pretty… pretty worried about it, I… I knew I needed to take that step. I kind of realized that growing up, what caused this all was misinformation, and the damage it did far more, you know, more than just just not being vaccinated. It did. It caused anxieties. It caused mistrust in our medical system, and that's not… not a way to live. So I wanted to kind of just, yeah, have a platform where I helped other people find the truth. Because even if ultimately, they don't choose to get vaccinated, they need to have the truth to make a choice. That's not fair for them to make a choice based on misinformation they're being given. Most of my siblings and stuff, they aren't vaccinated in like… in adulthood. But they… they accept that I am. But I know my parents have actually been able to avoid the topic a little bit. I know this summer when I went out for a visit with the kids, they were very vocal about this new vaccine and the sheep that were getting it. And how they were all going to die soon. And so I kind of… I didn't want to say, oh, by the way, I'm vaccinated after they said all this stuff. So I kind of just, you know, changed the topic, avoided it and eventually, it's going to come out. And I know… I know with that relationship because they're not just anti-vax, they're… they're anti-other people getting vaxxed. And that's a whole nother can of worms. So it will affect the relationship, for sure.

CH: Kelsey McDonald lives in Malfort, Saskatchewan. She spoke to Peter Mills of CBC Regina today.

[Music: Ambient]

Chernobyl Eagles

Guest: Adham Ashton-Butt

CH: Thirty-five years ago, it was the most inhospitable place on Earth. Now, the Ukrainian city of Chernobyl is seeing a resurgence of life. Researchers studying Chernobyl's exclusion zone have documented a thriving repopulation of wildlife. Animals that had gone extinct in the area are returning. Wetlands are forming. And Europe's endangered Greater Spotted Eagle is slowly making a comeback. All thanks to a process biologists call "rewilding". Adham Ashton-Butt co-authored a study on rewilding in Chernobyl. His findings are published in the journal Restoration Ecology. We reached him in Leeds, England.

CO: Adham, as an ecologist, how does it feel to see Chernobyl's exclusion zone flourish with wildlife?

ADHAM ASHTON-BUTT: It's an incredible place. It's a huge area, about 4,000 square kilometres, that's basically been given over to wildlife. And that's a massive area for Europe. We don't have the kind of expanses of wilderness left like you do in North America because most of it's been taken over by agricultural or cities or human activities. So it is an incredible place to go to. There's this real abundance of wildlife that has recovered from before the accident.

CO: It's interesting when you talk about Canada's expanses of wilderness, which are, of course, shrinking as well. But this is wilderness that hasn't been ever touched. These are places where this was heavily cultivated at one point, right? And is now being reclaimed by nature.

AAB: You're absolutely correct. So it was intensive farmland before the accident with large settlements and… and industry. And we've seen nature recover there, amazingly, which gives a lot of hope to ecologists that there isn't… there isn't a lot of hope and ecological science and conservation. So it's… it's nice to see that nature can return with a bit less human impact.

CO: It's still called.. it's still an exclusion zone because of the accident, because of radiations. So is it really a healthy place for the animals?

AAB: Well, the kind of jury is out on… on the impacts of radiation on the animals. But what we can say is that at population level, the radiation isn't having a negative effect. Wildlife populations there are flourishing that are doing not so well outside of the exclusion zone.

CO: And you're not seeing evidence of radiation poisoning in these animals?

AAB: There has been some studies that shows that there can be some negative effects on individuals. But not… yeah, as I said, at population level, they're doing really well.

CO: So tell us about the most extraordinary returns in the region, especially the eagles, right?

AAB: Yeah. So I guess that's one thing that our study found. There's a species of eagle that's endangered in Europe, the Greater Spotted Eagle, and that's a species that's gone extinct from a lot of Western Europe and wasn't in the exclusion zone before the accident. It had become extinct there. There is a healthy population in other areas of Belarus, but it's declining. And that species has actually colonized the exclusion zone just over a decade after the accident, and is flourishing now. So there's several pairs that are breeding successfully within the zone, as it's called. And this is kind of the only documented increase in population in the species globally.

CO: This is the Greater Spotted Eagle. Is that right?

AAB: That's correct.

CO: Well, what can they find to eat there? What's… what's the food chain like?

AAB: So, Greater Spotted Eagles are a wetland specialist, so that's what's seen massive decline throughout Europe because most of the wetlands in Europe have been drained for aquaculture. That's caused basically a habitat loss for the species. So they need kind of other wetland specialists to eat. So things like water voles and waders, wetland birds that are also struggling throughout Europe.

CO: And what are the wetlands made from? What… just describe… is there… I understand there are some reservoirs, dams that have deteriorated and broken. So is this kind of flooding, or is it swampy or what?

AAB: Yeah, it's quite swampy. So basically, there was these… the agricultural fields that used to be there, the drainage ditches that took out the water and made them cultivable, have become blocked either by people trying to stop the spread of radiation in the water, by beavers naturally blocking, or by vegetation over growing in these drainage ditches. And this has basically caused a lot of these fields to become flooded and turn back into the wetlands that these eagles and many other species need to survive.

CO: Of course, wetlands are now regarded as just crucial, and that they need to be preserved or recreated. And so we're seeing conservation efforts through… in different parts of Europe that are doing that. But is this different? I mean, this is rewilding, right? This isn't a conservation effort. What's the difference?

AAB: The key difference with rewilding is that there's a reduction in human interference. And there isn't necessarily a perceived conservation goal. As with many conservation projects that you know, they have an aim at the end to conserve the species or recreate this habitat. This was just left, and it did what nature did, and it's created these habitats that were lost kind of on its own.

CO: What does it say to you that… that animals can thrive in an area that's regarded as a… as contaminated with radiation, and they do better there than they do wherever we show up?

AAB: Yeah, it's a bit of a damning… damning sentence on the… on the human species that radioactive areas without humans are better than non-radioactives with humans. But it also does give us hope, I think, that if we reduce impacts on the planet, that nature can recover.

CO: And what are the possibilities that the exclusion zone will allow people back in and to reclaim it?

AAB: So that is one of the issues, especially in Ukraine. There is talk about cultivating certain areas. And that would, of course, be quite damaging for the wildlife. There's also an increase in tourism there. And that could be damaging. Or, if it's done right, it could be beneficial in terms of providing an income for the exclusion zone to carry on the protection of its wildlife. But I guess my hope for the exclusion zone is that it maintains its status as a wildlife haven. And that it's not given over to development that threatens that.

CO: Adham, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

AAB: Thank you very much.

CH: Adham Ashton-Butt is with the British Trust for Ornithology. He co-authored a study on rewilding in Chernobyl's exclusion zone. We reached him in Leeds, England.

[Music: Ambient]

B.C. Glaciers Research

CH: If you've never visited British Columbia's glaciers, you might want to make it a priority. New research using satellite imagery is mapping just how quickly the glaciers are melting due to climate change and related factors. And a hydrologist has discovered that it's happening faster than anyone thought. Here is Alex Bevington.

SOUNDCLIP

ALEX BEVINGTON: So for about a couple decades now, there's an openly and freely available archive of satellite imagery that goes all the way back to the mid-1980s. And it's available through NASA and the US Geological Survey. And those images are so good that we're able to kind of automate all kinds of mapping processes for, you know, some people to forest fires, some people do cut blocks, and I've been working on mapping glaciers over this 36-year period.

CHRIS WALKER: And what have you found? As you've automated this mapping, what have you discovered?

AB: Yeah. So the last time that we kind of systematically mapped glaciers in British Columbia and Alberta was in 2005, using the same imagery, but it was done sort of manually by tracing these out. And so what we did is we were able to write a computer program that just reads these satellite images and automatically maps everything. And what we found is that over time, because we were able to map every year since 1984, the trend in glacier retreat is actually accelerating over time. And it really took a sharp turn around 2010.

CW: Do we know why?

AB: Yeah. There's a lot of reasons why glaciers react to, you know, what's going on around them. Some of them are largely driven by climate, so air temperatures and snowpacks. But there's also other feedback loops that occur in glacier dynamics, where if a glacier is retreating, it will often break into pieces. And that introduces more heat into the glacier. And there's also other feedback mechanisms, such as… as a glacier kind of deflates, or you get wildfires, you get things like that. You get a darker glacier, so it absorbs more radiation from the sun. So it's a little bit complicated to give one reason. But if you compound all these things together, it's kind of bad news for the glaciers.

CW: And do… can we extrapolate into the future? Given what you knew… know that happened in 2010 with that acceleration really taking a turn, as you say, can you calculate what the feedback loops might be in the next 10 years?

AB: A lot of people have been working on this question, right? This question of how many years do we have for glaciers in B.C. and around the world? And overall, a lot of the consensus is around something like 100 years for British Columbia. But what we're showing is that if you just take the rates of change over the last 10 years, and it's a pretty sharp kind of drop in these glaciers, if you take that and extrapolate it through time, we're looking at more something like 70 years. Now, just extrapolating how they've changed over 10 years through time is not the most sophisticated way of… of predicting the future or modelling the future. But just to say that there's a bit of a range in these scenarios, but it's somewhere between 70 and 100 years.

CH: University of Northern BC PhD candidate Alex Bevington talking about B.C.'s melting glaciers with Chris Walker, the host of Daybreak Kelowna.

[Music: Vocalization]

Gatineau Curling Rink

Guest: Doug Taylor

CH: Over the past two years, hobbies have provided a nice break between the despairing and languishing. Some of those hobbies are pretty ordinary, like knitting or crying in the shower. Others are a little more involved -- like the food writer who opened up a restaurant for a backyard chipmunk, complete with a miniature picnic table. Or the Australian man who made an elaborate paper horse and cowboy outfit while in isolation. And then there is Doug Taylor's quintessentially Canadian pandemic hobby. We reached Mr. Taylor in Chelsea, Quebec.

CO: Doug, where are you right now?

DOUG TAYLOR: Well, I'm in Chelsea, Quebec. Standing on the Gatineau River.

CO: Right. And what are you doing out there?

DT: Well, myself and a few of my buddies are out here doing a little curling. We've got a rink going on… on the river and have some homemade curling stones. And we're having, I guess, we’re just short of a little bonspiel.

CO: [chuckling] How… how… how big is your curling rink?

DT Well, the… the rink itself is about 75 feet long and about 15 feet wide. And it's sitting in the middle of a skating rink that I have as well on the river. [CO chuckles] That's about 5,000 square feet. So it's… it's fairly large, and it does the job.

CO: How many people are out there curling with you on the Gatineau right now?

DT: There are four other… four friends here, yeah, and the numbers sort of come and go depending on who is going by and who's got the time and interest.

CO: Can we hear a little bit of… of the sport?

DT: Sure! Here comes the rocks now. Just a sec.

MAN: Okay, here it goes. Ohhhhhhhhh!

[cheering and shouting]

DT: I don't know if you could hear that?

CO: Yes, we could hear that. What are you doing for brooms?

DT: Well, this is an interesting variation because it's not really practical to sweep a rock going down, but there is sweeping involved. You have to clean the ice first, so you clean the ice off with a broom. And then you just throw using a push stick because getting a hack into the ice is a bit of a… [CO chuckles] haven't figured out that one yet.

CO: Okay, now you… you actually have your own DIY curling stones, right?

DT: I do. Yes, I found instructions on the internet. Some fellows had problem-solved and figured out that if you use stainless steel mixing bowls, fill them with concrete, bolt them together one on top of the other and put in galvanized pipe for handles and a piece of garden hose around the perimeter for a bumper, they actually work surprisingly well. And they weigh about the same as a regular curling stone. And they slide very nicely.

CO: Okay, so that's what we were hearing when you just were giving us some sound? That is a mixing bowl filled with concrete coming down the Gatineau?

DT: Exactly. [both chuckle] Yup.

CO: And when they… and so, are they effective? Does the garden hose act as a pretty good bumper?

DT: It does, yeah. You can actually do take-outs without breaking anything. [CO chuckles] So you can, you know, we haven't figured out how to do a double take out yet, but we’re working on that.

CO: Is there a take-out about to happen? Can we hear any… any… anybody close?

DT: Sure. Let's… let's see if we can get a take out here.

MAN: A take-out?

DT: Yep, here we go.

[Sound: A dense slide that sounds like a subway train wheel on the track]

DT: Well, close. [both laugh]

CO: You could have lied about this. You know, Doug, you could have told me, wow, brilliant.

DT: Yeah, I know. But you know, we're an honest group out here, so.

CO: All right, but just to tell… that is the sound of a mixing bowl filled with concrete sliding down the Gatineau and colliding… almost colliding with another stone. And so, are your ends marked?

DT: The ends aren't marked. So we kind of play it like… a bit like patonk or bocce. We use a puck as a target at either end. [CO chuckles] And it's closest to the puck.

CO: How often are you out there curling?

DT: Well, it's a recent… it’s a recent sport for me. I've only started about a week ago, so… and it's totally weather-dependent. So we had, you know, 30 or 40 centimetres of snow 10 days ago or so, and that took a little… a little bit of work to get that off the rink and then get it in shape. So we play when we can and shovel when we can, yeah.

CO: And do you have to flood --

[Sound: Cheers and such]

DT: We have to flood? [CO chuckles] Yes, I flood, but periodically only. And because it's river ice, it changes all the time. So it… it slopes. It sort of naturally floods, sometimes with overflow. It's challenging. It's a challenging game.

CO: Well, if you can play there, you can play anywhere, I would imagine?

DT: Yeah, yeah. And we're not too picky about it here. It's… it's a pretty… pretty relaxed group, as you can hear.

CO: Oh, they sound like they're having a great time.

DT: We are, you know, it's 22 below, but it's a beautiful day. And we're having a great time.

CO: Well, we'll leave you to it, Doug. And so, maybe just one more sound. Can we hear one more rock? one more mixing bowl?

[Sound: What a satisfying crunch]

DT: There you go.

CO: That’s perfect. [DT chuckles] Wonderful to talk to you, Doug. Have a good afternoon.

DT: Thanks. Nice to talk to you too, Carol. Bye-bye.

CO: Bye.

CH: Doug Taylor built a curling rink on the Gatineau River. We reached him on the rink in Chelsea, Quebec.

[Music: Folk jig]

FOA: Swan Delays Train

CH: Inclement weather. Track repair. Signalling problems. All legitimate and likely reasons for train delays. Then there are the less likely culprits. Like the one that stymied rush-hour traffic in west London on Monday evening. Hours after it was initially detected, it remained unyielding. Which is typical. Because swans, as we've established many times on this program, [scoffs] are jerks. It's unclear how the bird ended up on the tracks at South Acton station, but an engineer eventually managed to steered the bird to safety, before a London Wildlife Protection volunteer took him under her wing. Of course, given their famous stubbornness, it's no wonder a swan fowled things up. Take it from Stephen Legg. Last March, the Northampton man told us about a local swan named Cedric -- who just would not knock it off. Here's part of that interview, from our archives.

SOUNDCLIP

SL: It started off sort of looking at himself in the glass, but he now really rattles the door knocker. So it sounds like someone trying to get into the front door all the time. The knocker and the mail slot, as you say yes, it sounds as well, someone's putting letters through the letterbox all day.

CO: All day. Does this go on for a long time?

SL: He was doing it today at about 8:30 our time. He doesn't do it all the time because the girlfriend is lurking around as well. And so they disappear and have a swim in the lake. And then he comes back and does another 10 minutes of knocking on the door.

CO: What does he want, do you think?

SL: I don't know. I've no idea. I would find it difficult to ask him, but he's been doing it now for two or three years. So I don't think he's lonely or anything. I think he just likes the noise.

CO: And how about you? Do you like the noise?

SL: No, I find it a bit irritating after a couple of hours. Yes. And I usually sort of go out to one of the rooms out the back, so you can't hear it too much. But it's not a noise. No.

SL: Yes, exactly. That's right. I mean, he can do four or five hours in one go if he's having an off day. Yeah.

CO: I mean, do you think it's because he likes you or doesn't like you?

SL: I don't know, I'm not sure. Swans are personal like that. I don't know really. I honestly don't know.

CO: And people call him Cedric what do you call him? I mean, if you can say that on public radio?

SL: I wouldn't be able to say that on Canadian radio no. No definitely not. Not after four hours of that noise no,I don't think you'd want to know.

CO: Right. I can guess. I think.

CH: Stephen Legg is one of many Northampton residents who have been visited and revisited by Cedric the swan. He spoke with Carol last March.

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January 26, 2022

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