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The Current Transcript for January 20, 2022

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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Matthew Cardinal on living with COVID-19’s lasting impact

Guest: Matthew Cardinal

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It has been very difficult for my family, especially when I have children at home. And what comes in my mind is how we like with feeding my children.

MATT GALLOWAY: School is back in many parts of this country and resuming along with in-person learning at recess. Our school meal programmes that are vital for low income families and their kids in an hour. How communities have stepped up to fill the food gap while learning has been remote and why some are saying now is the time for Canada to implement a national school lunch programme. Also this morning. Why a pharmacist in Montreal is opening his pharmacy on Saturdays specifically to vaccinate immunocompromised people. Plus.

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How can you reconcile being a person who has suffered at the hands of these wicked people? And now you're part of that, and I understand the outrage. I'm not stupid. I appreciate where that comes from.

MG: When Cristino Bouvette was becoming a Catholic priest, one conversation he dreaded was telling his grandmother a residential school survivor. This morning, Alison Dempster brings us his story and how it shaped his path toward reconciliation. We begin, though, with a COVID survival story. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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It got so bad that finally, we had to phone an ambulance. He was gasping, gasping for air, like how much coughing he was doing. He was just gasping for air and so weak. So weak. I've never seen my son like that. It was come and go, and I have to. I have to be honest with that. Like, we didn't know if he was going to actually pull through this, how, how weak he was, how sick he was.

MG: That's Diane Desjarlais, cardinal from Regina. We spoke with her last April when her son, Matthew Cardinal, had just come off a ventilator after catching COVID at work. It was, as you heard, a very scary time and Matthew was lucky to pull through, but that wasn't the end of his ordeal. For some people, life after COVID can mean ongoing exhaustion, brain fog and breathing problems. As part of our series work in progress, we're looking at how long COVID is affecting Canadian workers and their workplaces. And so today we'll start by catching up with Matthew Cardinal. He's now back at work as a server at a family run restaurant where he has worked for the last 12 years. Matthew, good morning.

MATTHEW CARDINAL: Good morning.

MG: What's it like hearing your mom talk about how sick you are?

MATTHEW CARDINAL: I'll be honest, it just breaks my heart a little bit. It's never good to hear her upset, but she's a very strong lady and it sucks that she witnessed me getting so sick and being taken away by paramedics like that.

MG: You were. You were really sick when when I talked to your mom, she talked about you being put on the ventilator and then, as we heard, just coming off of it. What do you remember about that? What do you remember about when doctors said you had to go on a ventilator to save your life?

MATTHEW CARDINAL: Well, when I was admitted to the hospital on March 22nd, that was the morning that I was taken away from my house. My mom basically said her goodbye in the living room to far away like they had to put me on oxygen. They brought me to the hospital and the days leading up to the 25th. That was my day I got admitted to the ICU ward. I was getting progressively worse. It was brutal. So leading up to the ICU, I had a 10 minute warning. The nurses came up, doctor came up and they check me out and they said, We have to move into the ICU. We're moving you there in 10 minutes. So I literally panicked. I'm like, I want to call people. I don't know who to call. I didn't know what to do. So I just posted a really sad Facebook status. If I don't make it friends and family, this is goodbye because most people I know don't see that and it's very rare. So it was a really scary time.

MG: That sounds terrifying. They put you in a medically induced coma to save your life.

MATTHEW CARDINAL: Yeah, they wheeled me down and there was about six to eight people dressed in a yellow gown all around my bed and being wheeled down to the unit. I was terrified. I was literally shaking because I was like, Oh my God, I was like, Am I going to make it? Am I going to be alive? What's going to happen to me? What's how long am I going to be out? I had no idea. It was really scary.

MG: How are you doing now?

MATTHEW CARDINAL: Now I'm doing a lot, lot better. Each morning I wake up like I have to deal being fatigued. I'm still dealing with shortness of breath. And it's amazing because it's like 10 months later or nine months later. I have to push myself to get up each day and go to work. I've never been a lazy person and it kills me some days where I have to just lay there and push myself to get up out of bed and make some money or so.

MG: And this is this is considered to be part of the impact of having what's known as long COVID.

MATTHEW CARDINAL: Yeah. And what's scary about this long COVID is there's little they know about it, like lots of other governments are not really looking at that right now, like they're just looking at treating the current patients now, but they're not looking at long COVID and it's it's almost like we're being pushed to the side right now. The scary thing. Like, there's there's people that have worse long, long COVID symptoms than me, and it terrifies me like

MG: you've been able to go back to work. Tell me about that. How did it feel to to take that step, to go back to work at first?

MATTHEW CARDINAL: It took a lot out of me to push myself to go to work because I had to look at it this way. I had to balance out my EI premiums, like what I would be getting on EI. or going back to work. And I, my doctor, explained to me, Here's what we can do for you. Here's what I can write for you, but what do you want to do? And I said, I want to go back to work. He thought I was crazy. My bosses thought I was crazy. Everyone thought I was crazy. And I'm like, You know what? I'm going to do it. I do what I love. I love interacting with people, so I push myself to do it, and so my employer told me, Well, we're going to give you three or four hour shifts and we're just going to ease you into it. And I said, that's totally fine. I said, and I'll rebuild my stamina. I'll try to build as best I can my coordination. So I started off very casual part time and I worked my way to full time.

MG: Did you have anxiety about going back into a public space, having gone through what you'd gone through where you were? You worried at all that you might catch COVID again?

MATTHEW CARDINAL: Absolutely. And I still do. Yeah, when someone coughs around me like, you know, even though they're wearing a mask, if someone. It is looking a little rundown because, you know, a lot of my regulars, I see them, I've been seeing them for many, many years. And I can tell if something's off, so I'm always paranoid of catching COVID again. And it's it's it's crippling anxiety sometimes, but at the same time, I have to. I'm like, OK, I'm here to do my job. Serve them. Make their day. They'll make my day. I'll be happy with that. But it's but sometimes I have to go to the back and I have a little cry because I have to try to get through my anxiety of this.

MG: Just to deal with everything that's coming at you,

MATTHEW CARDINAL: just to deal with everything coming at me. And trust me. Working through a delta wave like the variant after I had was scary, but I still do. I still showed up to work.

MG: What sort of reactions were you getting from people in the restaurant when they saw that you were the server there?

MATTHEW CARDINAL: Most of the reactions have been fairly pleasant and good because a lot of my customers, I treat them like family, like they love me. But there's a lot of people that will come in and they'll recognise me from the news. Or they know me that I have had COVID and they treat me like I have a permanent disease, like I'm still infected. Some of them will want to stay in a different section or they'll come in on days. I don't even work like sometimes they'll even call the restaurant and ask who is working? And if they hear my voice, they hang up.

MG: So they don't want to be served by you.

MATTHEW CARDINAL: Yeah, and sometimes, you know, I'll be sitting like, I'll just be walking by, some people will even grab their masks from us on the table and pull it quickly to their face like I've been dealing with that too. But, you know, like. I have to look at it this way. There is so much misinformation out there, so much uncertainty that I cannot take it personally, like if I take things personally, I'm in the wrong business, right?

MG: But what about I know that there are because as you said, you were on the news, people knew about you and knew about your story, in part because of what your mother had said and the work that she had done in supporting you, that you were being. Targeted by anti-vaxxers as well.

MATTHEW CARDINAL: Oh, yes. That's the reason why I don't want to mention where exactly where I work is because like I've attended a few of I've attended a few gatherings like, oh of course, like safe gatherings like outdoors and response to health care workers, COVID patients and whatnot, you know, like just trying to build support for myself and whatnot and others. And we've had anti-vaxxers show up, throw things at us. And yet all these things saying it's saying it's all a sham and it's like, Oh, my goodness. Like even leaving the hospital, we had to go through anti-masker protests. And after I'd been discharged and I was so mad.

MG: How do you react to that? You nearly died. You were on a ventilator in the intensive care unit and then you have people who were outside yelling at you saying that this is all a hoax.

MATTHEW CARDINAL: It was very, very, very frustrating, but. I wanted to yell, but you know, my my voice is still recovering, I couldn't really yell, but I was like, really? It's frustrating. Very, very, very frustrating. And it still frightens me. It frustrates me to this day. But. Right now, I'm just at the point where you know what? Those people will always have their stance against this. It's I just wish them well. Like, like it's time to make peace. Time to, it's just time to start showing some love in this world. This is what we need.

MG: How how's your workplace and your employer reacting to everything that you've gone through and what you talked about in terms of the way people have responded, some people have responded to you at work.

MATTHEW CARDINAL: I work has been very, very, very, very, very accommodating to me, like they've been very kind to me and accommodating. And luckily, it's kind of like a bigger restaurant, so I can just go to a different side of the restaurant and some people will just put me in someone else's section. My work has been very accommodating for me, and they've been very kind and caring, so it's I'm grateful for it.

MG: And you're still comfortable going. I mean, we're in the middle of this Omicron wave. You're still comfortable going back to work now.

MATTHEW CARDINAL: Always a little uncomfortable, but I'm taking extra precautions. I've upgraded my masks. I make sure they're sealed on my face and washing my hands like, you know, like, I've always been doing those washing my hands and being extra careful. I mean, and yeah, so. That's how I'm taking it head on, like, do I know this is super infectious? Like, I follow a bunch of doctors and nurses and whatnot online, and then they told me to be careful. Like, so I listen to the doctors. It's scary, but I'm doing my job. I'm working. I got my booster. So.

MG: And what are you doing aside from you getting your booster? What are you doing when it comes to the symptoms of long COVID are the things that you that you can do to try and ease those symptoms that can get you completely on the road to recovery?

MATTHEW CARDINAL: Um yes. The university here contacted me and. I've been part of doing some of the research studies there because because they're studying COVID and one of the faculty members mentioned that there's a cardiac concurrent disease, gym, and she said she's going to go ask them if they can include COVID like recovered COVID patients on there. And so they classified it there that day as a chronic disease. So I got a doctor referral and. So I've been going to this gym, it's a monitored gym and there's a doctor there, there's certified trainers there. They have extra trainers, how to use defibrillators. So at the monitor gym for an hour, it's three days a week. It's been helping me tremendously. If everything like I've been, I've been finding I'm my breathing is getting a lot better. I'm getting my stamina. It's helping me tremendously. The reason why I'm doing this, Jim, is because, like with my symptoms after the hospital, my heart rate would sometimes go to one, 90, one 80 and I would just be doing little tasks like I was trying to do the dishes one day. And also then I felt like I'm going to have a heart attack. My heart was pounding and I'm like, Something's wrong. So it took five minutes for my heart rate to go down. But so, so, so, so doing that. I don't want to go to a normal gym because I just feel like going to normal gym there's more risk there, and I feel like you won't get as much medical help until it's too late. So at least with this gym, as a doctor, they're in there watching what you're doing for that hour and there's a set preset workouts and they kind of what you kind of watch your heart rate as you go along and make sure things are OK. So it's it's tremendous like it helps me a lot.

MG: How old are you?

MATTHEW CARDINAL: 35, now.

MG: 35. You've you've had this crazy year. You've been through so much. And even, I mean, as we talk about it, I can hear it in your voice that the emotional weight and strain that this has put on you. Are you optimistic that that you'll get through this to the other side that that you will recover fully eventually?

MATTHEW CARDINAL: I am. Very optimistic that I've made it to the other side. Trust me, almost dying, surviving intubation, all this in a hospital has given me a great perspective of life to try to be try to be as optimistic as possible, make someone's day, you know, rebuild friendships, rebuild family friendships like rebuild family. And but for symptom wise, I don't know. I can't say, I can't say what's going to happen because this virus, like I've heard it, it affects blood vessels. Like How do you fix blood vessels, right? Like I've heard, it affects many things of your body, and they don't know how they're going to fix that. There's there's some studies going on now with long COVID, but. Everything is literally up in the air like. It's a it's scary, but at the same time, I have to be optimistic, like I have a second lease that life like I'm grateful every day that I wake up and I'm alive, and so I try to spread as much positivity as I can to dark times like this.

MG: I'm grateful that you're alive as well, and I'm really glad to talk to you. The conversation that I had with your mother last year was was a really jarring one, and I'm glad that you're on your way to the other side of this. Take care of yourself and thanks, Matthew.

MATTHEW CARDINAL: Thank you, Matt.

MG: Be well. Bye bye.

MATTHEW CARDINAL: Bye bye.

MG: Matthew Cardinal works as a restaurant server in Regina. He was on a ventilator last year. He's still recovering, as you heard from long COVID. There are many people like Matthew still trying to recover from symptoms that have lasted for months. Tomorrow on the programme, we'll hear from Jessica Sewell. She works as an administrative assistant in Vancouver.

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My long COVID started out with an unexplained rashes and I was having rashes to hot water. So at first I thought it was kind of funny. I was like, Oh, now what? I'm allergic to water, haha. But then it started to progress into having near anaphylactic reactions to everything I would eat. It was very bizarre. I had no explanation for this. Then my heart rate started to get affected where my heart rate would just go up to astronomical amounts just by standing, it would go up to like 200 beats per minute, which is very dangerous. I found out I was having dizzy spells, fainting spells. The littlest things would make me feel completely drained. Tremors. Waking up in the middle of the night with a pounding heart that was caused by an adrenaline dump. Yeah, I was just I was basically felt like The Walking Dead. And my work is very supportive. They kept saying, You know, if you need to be asked yourself and I kept thinking, No, I had COVID. I don't have COVID anymore. I can't be off. What am I off for? Like I had COVID two months ago, you know? So I kept pushing through and then I actually went to a an appointment at the long haul COVID clinic. I went right from that appointment to the hospital where I had a seven day stay. And at that point, I accepted that I needed to be off work. That's how I've always lived. My life is there's an obstacle in my way, and if I just keep pushing and pushing, I will surpass this obstacle. So for me, going off work felt like defeat or when I'd have a really bad day. Even taking a nap feels like defeat. And it was like, if I go off work, I'm letting this disease win. So I kept going at it as how I go about everything else in life. If I just keep pushing, it will go away. And what I've learnt is this disease doesn't work like that. The more you push, the more it pushes back and and it always wins.

MG: That's Jessica Sewell. You'll hear her full story tomorrow on The Current as we continue our series work in progress. In the meantime, would love to hear from you if you are still experiencing symptoms of COVID lingering symptoms if you have been going through what's known as long COVID. How has that impacted your ability to go back to work? We heard from Jessica, we heard from Matthew as well. We'd love to hear from you, so get in touch. You can email us. And what would be great is to hear your voice. So grab the phone and record a voice memo and then send it to us. You can email it to us at thecurrent@cbc.ca. You can just send us a note as well. The Current at CBC.ca or tweet us @ThCurrentCBC. Your CBC News is up next. And then.

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VOICE 1: I'm here today because it's the only place I could get my booster shot safely. There're never zero risk, but it's as close as we can get. I drove 30 minutes to get here and I would have driven Howard.

VOICE 2: Why? Why would one want to stand in line if you are possibly going to be contaminated? So I've been very pleased and I must say I think this this particular pharmacist is doing everyone a great service.

MG: One Quebec pharmacist is making a big difference to some of the province's most vulnerable. In six minutes, we'll hear his plan to provide booster shots specifically for the immunocompromised. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One. Stay with us.

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Montreal pharmacist sets up vaccine clinic for immunocompromised; why an Indigenous man dreaded telling his grandma he’s a priest

Guests: Daroon Basmadjian, Father Cristino Bouvette

MG: Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway, and you're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, keeping kids out of the classroom creates more than just an education problem. Some parents rely on school breakfast and lunch programmes to keep their kids fed and healthy. And when school is not in-person, those families can struggle. In just under 30 minutes, we'll hear from one of those families and from others calling for a national solution. But first, the difference that one pharmacist can make. Montreal pharmacist Daron Basmadjian's mission began with a tweet, and the tweet was written in all caps. Attention immunocompromised patients in the Montreal area looking for their third or fourth doses of vaccine. He went on to say that his pharmacy would open on Saturdays to offer vaccines to immunocompromised Montrealers and their family members. No other prescriptions, no otherclients, just him and one by one them. The first clinic was on Saturday.

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VOICE 1: I'm here today because it's the only place I could get my booster shot safely there. Never zero risk, but it's as close as we can get. I just don't understand why we couldn't get these kind of measures everywhere. Well, not everywhere. I mean, from the government in some vaccination places dedicated from immunocompromised people and drove 30 minutes to get here, and I would have driven an hour to get it.

VOICE 2: Why? Why would one want to stand in line if you are possibly going to be contaminated? So I've been very pleased and I must say I think just this particular pharmacist is doing everyone a great service, and I'm very grateful to him.

MG: Daron Basmadjian, is the pharmacist who came up with the idea. He is at the Proxima Arto Best Magee and Pharmacy in Montreal. That is where we have reached him this morning. Daryn, good morning.

DARON BASMADJIAN: Good morning.

MG: This is a great idea. Why are you doing this?

DARON BASMADJIAN: First and foremost, the idea came to me as a person who has a family member who is immunocompromised. My father is a liver transplant patients who had his transplant in 2003. Obviously, since the pandemic has begun, we've all been on pins and needles and very worried about his health and knowing what challenges he's faced and what the community immunocompromised community at large has faced. We came to this time now, or it was time to update their boosters and give them a fourth dose. As as we know that the vaccine regimen for immunocompromised people is for three is three doses as opposed to two for everybody else. And so, so three months had passed. Quebec authorised booster doses for them and I wanted to get it firm, but I had nowhere, no idea where to send them. And he had gotten his third dose, which is when the delta wave was was speaking in September or was beginning at least, and I had gotten it for him in a drive thru clinic. Obviously, that's not feasible right now with the weather being what it is. And so this was an option that I came to. I said the only option, really, because otherwise it's just waiting. And that's what most of my immunocompromised patients have been telling me is that I've been I was resigned to it. But having this option has has made it a little bit more possible for them to get their booster that they sorely need.

MG: That's for your dad. I mean, talk more broadly about the other patients. You're not you're not just giving your dad the vaccine and then going back to business as usual and taking Saturdays off. Why would you think that you would? What was the impetus to extend it beyond your in your family?

DARON BASMADJIAN: Well, first and foremost, obviously logistically, you know, you can't order a vial and just use it on one person. I mean, first of all, ethically and morally, it's it's not acceptable. And also, obviously being a person who related to someone in the situation, my heart goes out to these people. You know, these are people who for the past two years have been have been staying home, not leaving. They have family members who have been essentially handcuffed to them and they've been being careful. Everything the government has asked them to do, they've done. And now they're being forced into a situation where they're saying, Well, you've got to go get boosted, but you can't do it anywhere. That's really safe. So obviously, my heart goes out to these people and I said to myself, If I'm going to offer this for my father, he's not the only one in this boat. There's lots of other people who may be. And I just want to make sure that he's that. He's not the only one I'm helping. And really, the feedback has been has been wonderful.

MG: How are you creating the conditions so that it is safe for those immunocompromised patients to come to your clinic?

DARON BASMADJIAN: So the bare minimum, what I was originally doing four four, when I was vaccinated for first and second doses, I was I was using a CO2 monitor to make sure that the ventilation levels were were adequate in the vaccination room, and I always had an air purifier running in the vaccination room as well. So these are things that I was doing from day one last last March when we began vaccinating, and that's something that we're obviously continuing to do now. Beyond that, because my pharmacy is a small pharmacy located in a medical building. We are not open on weekends, which is a rarity for many pharmacies. Obviously, most are open seven days. And so because I had that flexibility of opening at a time when we're normally closed, I said to myself, Well, I'll open it when there's nobody else in the building where I can get these people and see only them. I'm staggering the appointments by 10 minutes so that they don't have to wait in line or have other people. At the same time, I rapid test myself before each shift to make sure that I'm not possibly asymptomatically carrying the virus. Obviously, we know it's not foolproof, but I figure each. Layer of protection I can give these people is better than nothing. Beyond that, we also allow them to wait outside in their car for the mandatory 15 minute post-vaccine observation period as long as they're accompanied. Otherwise, if they are waiting in here while we have a separate waiting area where there is another air purifier installed. So we're really trying to do everything we can to keep these people safe.

MG: I could hear the phone ringing in the background and I can imagine that a lot of people have been trying to get one of these appointments. What's the response been like?

DARON BASMADJIAN: Incredible. Early on when I just put out the tweets that you you referenced? It was. It was. It started for sure, and I knew I wasn't going to get everybody that way. It was really just to kind of get the word out and hopefully reach a few people who are advocates in the community to refer other people who may be looking for this type of service. Truthfully, I never thought that we would get the response that we did. And then once the media jumped on to it as we've had interviews, you know, I've had interviews, many other media outlets. It's if each time it's either an article or an interview, I get another day or two of phone calls or emails. And so basically, yesterday was the first day in a week where I haven't where I finished my day without any emails to return or phone calls to return or messages to return. And so really, it's been it's been overwhelming. We filled up all the slots that we originally planned, which takes us into early February, and we're going to have to see if things continue. I don't know if there are many more people who still need the appointments or the doses, but in some cases some people had already gotten them in some cases. People said, Well, you know, I feel comfortable enough going and I said, good, more power to you or they're going to go to their local pharmacy or whatever. And I say, great, I'm not telling them that I'm the only game in town. I'm just telling them that if they are concerned about the safety of these larger public areas, I can offer them a space that is much safer.

MG: You talked about how many people in the immunocompromised community have, as this wave has continued, you know, been forced to stay home because they worry about their own safety going out into public spaces. What more? Just briefly, what more have you heard from them if you as you've spoken to them on the phone to take their appointments?

DARON BASMADJIAN: Absolutely. These are people who who by and large have been telling me that they felt absolutely forgotten by the government. And I, you know, I know this is national, so I'm sure people will identify from many other provinces as well. And I've had comments from people. Not only people have taken appointments with me, but people who have reached out, whether by Twitter, by email, just to congratulate us on the initiative, but also said that they feel absolutely forgotten and not cared for. And the reality is that there are precious few services put in place for these people. There are precious few opportunities given for these people to have something even remotely resembling a normal life. There are people that we've basically told to shelter in place forever, and there are. There are there are very few opportunities beyond the vaccines for them to live a safe life. And we know for many of these people, the vaccines will have very limited effect. And so the question is, what can we do to allow these people to live a normal or at least something remotely resembling normal again? And they just totally feel forgotten, whether it's questions like the official, the, you know, protective antibody pre-exposure prophylaxis that has been authorised in the United States since December. There was an application made for Health Canada in November, and we haven't heard anything since. That's something that could greatly improve the quality of these people's lives and protect them a lot better against COVID 19. Whether it's the just now has been announced tax levied, which is the treatment for COVID 19 that finally was authorised by Health Canada. To have access to this, it's the people are going to be jumping through hoops. There's going to be limited quantities. It's going to they're going to have to be have a confirmed infection, which is not easy to confirm an infection right now here in Quebec, as PCR testing is very limited as access to rapid tests is very difficult. And so these these are people that from the beginning have felt neglected and forgotten. And now that we're moving into this next phase of the pandemic, feel even more, more forgotten. And so I think what's important is that not just as a pharmacy myself, but you know, businesses, governments, everyone has to kind of say that. All right. Well, if we're going to move on, we have to do something for these people. We can't just say, Well, if you get COVID, that's your luck, then. And we can't tell them to stay at home forever, either. So we need to kind of put things in place, offer them scenarios or situations which can be safer, like what I'm doing here. Yeah. And and I think that's something that they will greatly appreciate. And I think the first person to jump on board with that. I've had comments from people saying if this guy was anywhere near me, I would be coming to see him, you know, and this from people in Alberta. So it's it's not. It's I'm not the only one who's thought of these things. I'm, I guess the only one who is in the unique situation that I was independent enough to be able to do something. I have a small pharmacy. I'm able to be more flexible. I have a family member who is affected. So obviously I know what's going on in that community, and I think this is something that really needs to be brought to the attention of the of the government more than anybody else because when we're talking. About the COVID vaccine. This is something where we're forcing people to go into enclosed areas in long line-ups. Wait, possibly for half an hour to an hour. We're here in Quebec. They often force people to take off their masks, their superior quality masks and replace them with the blue surgical mask, which is better than a cloth mask. But it's still not as good as a well fitted or even not as well fitted. Can 95 and ninety five any of these types of things? So there's lots of things that we can do to make these people's lives better. We're just not doing that.

MG: I'm going to let you go. But just before you go to answer the phone, I want to go back to your dad. He is the Aarto in our home as Majid. That's right. What was it like for him to come back into the pharmacy? Just briefly tell us that.

DARON BASMADJIAN: It was a very emotional moment for him. My dad bought this pharmacy in 1976 and spent most of his life here, and I took over 11 years ago when I graduated from pharmacy school here in Montreal. And as he came in, it had been one of the first times he had been in in over two years. And it was a very emotional moment for him and knowing that it was to be able to get his vaccine knowing that it was his son giving it to him. Knowing this whole thing that I'm putting together to help people in his type of situation is a very emotional moment for him and truthfully for me as well.

MG: You're doing great work. We'll let you get to the phones because I know people probably want to get in touch, but thanks for telling us about what you're doing and just thanks for what you're doing, Daron.

DARON BASMADJIAN: Thank you very much and thanks for getting the word out. And please, the journalists are as much a part of this process as I am and can even be more so. And the more that people talk about the immunocompromised situation, what's going on with these people, the more chance we have to help them. So it's a lot of good that can be done with interviews like this.

MG: Daron, take care.

DARON BASMADJIAN: Take care. Thank you.

MG: Daron Basmadjian, is a pharmacist at the proximal robust margin pharmacy in Montreal, and that is where we reached him.

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MG: You're listening to the current on CBC Radio One. I'm Matt Galloway when Cristino Bouvette was considering becoming a priest, there was one conversation he dreaded. He wasn't sure how his grandmother, a residential school survivor from the Saddle Lake Cree Nation in Alberta, would take that news. As he discovered reconciliation takes many forms. It's something that Father Bouvette has been doing a lot of thinking about. As residential school survivors wait for word on when Pope Francis will make his promised visit to Canada, one that many hope will bring a long awaited apology. We met up with Father Bouvette at St. Mary's Cathedral in Calgary.

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[Sound: Bells ringing]

FATHER CROSTINO BOUVETTE: My name is Father Cristino Bouvette. I am a Catholic priest of the Diocese of Calgary in Alberta. You might have noticed from my name that I probably am a strange combination of things, and it may only seem strange to others, but in fact, I am a person of Italian heritage. My grandparents immigrated to Canada in 1958 from Italy, and they are my mother's parents. So that is where the Italian sounding name Cristino comes from. And on my father's side, I very proudly a man of indigenous heritage. My grandmother was a Cree woman who was born on the Saddle Lake Indian Reserve west of Edmonton. So I grew up very blessed by a very rich blend of cultures and experiences.

FATHER CROSTINO BOUVETTE: So here's the suitcase that my great grandfather left my grandmother. Pretty old shape here, but it's full of lots of little treasures. Obviously, of all of the treasures in this satchel, I think my favourite is this Cree book. But as you can see, they're all transliterated and transcribed into the Cree language. My grandfather himself, my great grandfather, was involved in some translation work, despite himself having gone all through the residential school system. He did obviously manage to learn and retain his language, and his name was James Steiner. He was the descendant of two previous generations of Steiners. My Great Great Great Grandfather, who was a Methodist missionary. He was one of the first ordained Christian ministers of indigenous descent in Canada. The Reverend Henry Byrd. This picture was taken in the 50s, so certainly I wasn't there, but someone had the idea that Michael Cohen should get all dressed up in some traditional garb. So I'm so grateful to whoever thought to take this picture of her and. But also, you can see her very warm, soft smile. She was such a pleasant and loving and cheerful woman. Kokum is the Cree word for grandmother. She really loved that we would call her kokum in order for us to try and retain some of those traditional elements of our culture. She herself spent 12 years in the Edmonton Indian Residential School, and she suffered immensely. Her mother died while she was away at residential school and she didn't get to go home to be with her family. Her brother died in- my understanding was it was an adjacent building. He had scarlet fever. It was her brother, Arthur, and I think he was about, I think she said something like 11 or 12 when she would have been nine. So she was just a little girl. We know that disease just ran rampant through those institutions, and so he fell prey to that. I don't think she was allowed to even participate in the funeral that was observed for him when he was buried. Those were the sorts of, I think, things that she just could not understand what goes into thinking that this is OK and her eyes would still there with tears, and she should close her eyes and just look away and say, Oh, I don't think I want to talk about this. So there is no question that the trauma she suffered lasted her whole life. I was nervous about how would she feel about her grandson becoming a Catholic priest, because I'm ashamed to admit that growing up, I didn't realise the extent to which the Catholic Church had played such a prominent role in the residential school system. And my mother, being this Italian immigrant, was obviously a very devout Catholic, and my father had moved away from home and met my mother in medicine hat and found a home for himself in the Catholic Church. And so he also had become a Catholic, even though my kokum was never a Catholic. And so I wondered, or maybe she'd have bad feelings towards her grandson going this direction. I almost felt like I needed to apologise to her that I thought that maybe I was dishonouring her somehow, but she could not have been more supportive of me. And she she insisted that in her life, she had come to see that although she was a staunch advocate for justice, that there needed to be justice for those who suffered as a consequence of the residential school system. I think she made a conscious decision that she needed, if she wanted to be free, she needed to dig deep within the riches of her Christian tradition, to find the grace to forgive. For her sake. That was something that was important to her and I think she just struck a marvellous balance between saying, No, we will work towards justice and we will work towards holding those accountable who need to acknowledge the wrongs that have been done. At the same time to choose freedom for herself. And that was a conscious decision that she made.

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VOICE 1: Tonight after years of pressure from indigenous peoples and Catholics. The pope is coming to Canada.

VOICE 2: We are looking forward to meeting Pope Francis on the traditional lands here on Turtle Island when he does decide to come and visit.

VOICE 3: It is part of the process of reconciliation for the decades of abuse and forced assimilation suffered by indigenous children who were forced to attend residential school. So many of them run by the Catholic Church.

VOICE 4: The Pope has to come in and apologise. Will he accept responsibility for residential schools?

FATHER CROSTINO BOUVETTE: I think he's saying, Let's talk. I want to listen to you. I want to learn from you. So I'm already grateful that that just that that willingness is being presented. This man is approaching his 90s and to even be open to saying, I'll fly across the Atlantic Ocean to come to your country and and meet with your people on their land and talk to them there. I think that there's a vulnerability that would be shown by that. So my hope is that, however, all of this goes about that the pope is successful in conveying that sentiment. I can only hope that people don't interpret how I live my life and how I seek to advance the mission that I have undertaken to somehow be manipulative or condescending or dismissive. I hear that those kinds of comments and how dare you use your indigenous heritage to try and make the church sound good? Or how how can you reconcile being a person who has suffered at the hands of these wicked people? And now you're part of that? And I understand the outrage that prompts such an opinion. I'm not stupid. I appreciate where that comes from. These are not the suffering of strangers. This is the suffering of my own flesh and blood. So I'm certainly not dismissive of that. If I don't find a way to harmonise those identities that comprise who I am, I will be of no help to anyone. And so that's why I have following my Qualcomm's lead. Decided I need to make that exist peacefully within my heart so that I can be available to those I'm called to serve. People who come and confess their sins to us priests, we call that the sacrament of reconciliation. So all this talk about truth and reconciliation. As a Catholic priest, I think to myself that's my as my as my students to say, that's my jam. That's what I do. That's how I live. That's how I exist. Is to seek to foster reconciliation between people themselves and between individuals and God, to hope to try and be that bridge. The origins of the word reconciliation in the it's a Latin compound word, and it involves in there the word Celia's eyelashes. And someone once described it to me as sort of saying reconciliation is being able to come back together again, eyelash to eyelash. That's what the hope of reconciliation is, that we could be looking into each other's eyes and see the other as other and share in the intimacy and the love that reconciliation makes possible.

MG: Father Cristino Bouvette at St Mary's Cathedral in Calgary, an indigenous delegation was supposed to travel to Rome last month to meet with Pope Francis and lay the groundwork for his trip to Canada, which has not yet been scheduled. That delegation postponed their trip because of the Omicron wave of COVID 19. No new date has been set for that visit, thanks to the CBC's Alison Dempster for bringing us that story. Well, coming up after a regional update, staying home from school means missing a lot when it comes to kids across this country, and that includes missing a meal for some children in Canada. In 90 seconds, we'll hear from people working to change that and why people are calling even louder now for a national school lunch programme. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current more to come. So stay with us.

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Advocates urge federal government to commit to a national school lunch program

Guests: Debbie Field, Amanda Rouse, Marlene Evans

MG: Hello, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. Students in four provinces return to in-person learning this week. It was a relief to many parents for any number of reasons, one of which is that many parents depend on their school's meal programme to make sure their kids are fed and healthy. Parents like Carolyn Kanja, a mother of six in Mississauga, Ontario,

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During this time for pandemic, especially this time it has been very difficult for my family, especially when I have children at home, because one thing we are not accessing to the programme for breakfast programmes and what comes in my mind is how will I be feeding my children? You know, especially with this thing endemic, including providing a healthy snacks. You know, like when we have Breakfast Club, they usually provide us with healthy snacks.

MG: The school closures during the pandemic have prompted calls for a national school food programme. Canada is currently the only G7 country without one of those programmes. Instead, we have a bit of a patchwork model, which advocates say leaves some students hungry. Marlene Evans is an education assistant who coordinated the food programme at St. Pardon Me, a James Nesbitt community school for over a decade, and she joins us this morning from Winnipeg, where schools opened on Monday. Amanda Rouse runs a local volunteer lunch delivery programme while schools are closed. She's in the of cases valley outside St. John in New Brunswick. Good morning to you both.

GUESTS: Good morning. Thank you for having me.

MG: Thanks for being with us, Marlene. It's your first week back after the winter break. Tell us, given what you're back involved in, how your school food programme works.

MARLENE EVANS: Our food programme basically runs. We have a balanced school day, so that means we have two nutrition breaks the morning one usually where they will pick up cereal. There's juice boxes, there's milk. There's yoghurt. We have a variety of food. We have a lot of kids come off our buses in the morning that come for a breakfast programme. Pre-pandemic, we were able to provide where they would sit down and have breakfast with me. But now, since COVID to come, we do a brown bag lunch where they will take their milk and their cereal and four or five other food items that they need for their new to nutrition breaks. And that will sort of get them through and any child that doesn't maybe have enough in their lunch and they're more than welcome to come to our our multipurpose room where our staff will provide them with anything that they just need that little extra to get them through the day.

MG: How important are these programmes for the kids who use it? You mentioned that they step off the bus often and come straight to you for breakfast.

MARLENE EVANS: Absolutely. Those those families come every single day for us, and we know where our families, we know our children. They look forward to coming in the morning. I look forward to having them and they just know that they're provided every day with a nutrition, a nutritious breakfast and a nutrition, a nutritious lunch..

MG: Amanda, tell us what you are up to a few weeks back, you posted a note on Facebook. This was an offer to help a family with groceries, and that's turned into something much more than that. Tell me what you're doing right now.

AMANDA ROUSE: Yeah, certainly this has grown beyond my wildest dreams. So right now I've been working with the local schools, with their administration and their teachers, and also really working with our local police department in our high risk neighbourhoods. And we've identified a group of kids who were relying on their schools to provide them with healthy food. And so basically, I put out the rally cry out in the community and they've come forward with an absolutely amazing amount of support. And together we're feeding approximately 60 kids lunch every day 60 kids.

MG: 60 kids?

AMANDA ROUSE: Yes.

MG: Who's funding this?

AMANDA ROUSE: It's all volunteer and it's all through donation.

MG: And is that the volunteers are also coordinating the deliveries as well.

AMANDA ROUSE: So what's happening is the community has really rallied round to drop off items in true maritime fashion to my front step and I bring it in my house and manufacture it out. Basically have a little assembly line in my basement, my home office and I use my kids as my my helpers to carry stuff back and forth and I package it out. The 60 lunches every day and the local police officers come by my house and pick it up, and they're actually doing the deliveries in the community every day.

MG: What is the Home Office look like these days?

AMANDA ROUSE: It's definitely chaotic. There's there's food everywhere and there's boxes everywhere, but I wouldn't have it any other way.

MG: Marlene, you said that you have kids that are coming every single day for the lunches that you're offering in the breakfasts that you're offering. So when schools are closed, is the province or the city offering up a stopgap to make sure that these families get the help that they would otherwise rely on the school programmes for.

MARLENE EVANS: Well, for us, I'm not quite sure, but I do know that if a child or a parent calls to our administrator say during COVID time when we were off school and we had stuff available, he would gladly make packages up and drop them off at their homes for them. During this time, we've had parents call just they're just short till the end of the month or something. So if we always seem to have extra items, they'll definitely go and he will drop them off for them. We're very fortunate that this year we've gotten grants from them. One was the Child Nutrition Council of Manitoba, and also they've given us a three thousand fifty dollars and this is our first year through the PC Child charity, where we've gotten $1100 in the last couple of years at Breakfast. Club of Canada has provided us with money to buy these foods. At that we need to, you know, help our children out every day to have a healthy and nutritious lunch and breakfast.

MG: Have you seen a bump in terms of the number of kids who are relying on your food over the course of this pandemic?

MARLENE EVANS: Yes, we have. And families that normally wouldn't need us, their lunch breaks just aren't full, so we always recommend that they, you know, come down to our room. We have a multipurpose room. We have everything laid out on the counter, and they're welcome to choose four to five items to put in just to add to their lunch, to give them something to get to the day.

MG: How do you create the environment so that kids feel welcome to come down and get that food without being embarrassed? We know that there's stigma that surrounds any number of things and that this applies here as well. So how do you create that space so that the kids feel welcome and they don't feel embarrassed at all?

MARLENE EVANS: Oh, I just think our Nesbitt family, our staff as a whole does that for every child. We've had children and families that have- they're nervous to come in. They don't want you to know that they don't have a backpack, that they don't have a lunch bag. And now it just seems they just know they come to our multipurpose room. I'm there every morning to greet them. They love to choose, you know, four or five items and off they go, I tell them to have a wonderful day and that and they'll turn around and they say you too, Mrs. Evans. And I mean, it just brings a smile on my face every morning. I absolutely love doing this programme.

MG: Amanda, New Brunswick is in another lockdown. Schools are shut. What are you hearing from parents there?

AMANDA ROUSE: Certainly, this lockdown seems to be adding an additional level of stress on our parents. We are in a full lockdown here in New Brunswick. So much too much to reiterate what was just said. You know, a lot of families who maybe weren't struggling before are now struggling because they can't work. And so we're just seeing it a lot more and families are just really grateful for any bit of support that they can get at this time.

MG: Can I ask you just personally, you know what this is like? You know what this is like to go through? How does that inform the work that you're doing, Amanda?

AMANDA ROUSE: Well, absolutely. It's it's part of my story. I grew up experiencing child poverty. I grew up in a very small fishing community and in southern New Brunswick and and we were all poor and we all struggled. And through that, I watched my community rally around each other. And so if one family had extra, they shared it with their neighbours. And I think that really impacted me as a person. And it's something that I've carried with me my entire life. And I've come to realise that there is power in just one family helping another family. And at the end of the day, we only get one shot. You only get one life and we can all do something small that can make a huge impact for someone else.

MG: How are you making sure that people feel comfortable in asking for help?

AMANDA ROUSE: So for us, I think it's really important in our community, especially, poverty isn't something that's, you know, readily discussed. So for me, it's about really we are engaging the kids. And so for our lunch programme, we have some little helpers in the community who are actually helping the police officers deliver the lunch. So it's more like a friend sharing their lunch with each other. And I've had some some parents reach out to me outside of the lunch programme to just say, You know, I don't know if you have any additional items, but if you were really struggling and I always take the time just to share my own personal story with them and say to them, You know, I know, I know how hard it is to reach out for help, and I know that you have your kids best interests at heart. And how can I help you? And and I've, you know, it really makes my whole day to be able to help those families.

MG: It's just like a friend sharing lunch. I mean, which is what kids do all the time?

AMANDA ROUSE: Absolutely.

MG: Marlene, you talked about how you piece together funding for this. We're going to be speaking in just a moment about a national school lunch. How would something like that help you? If there was if the responsibility was taken off of your shoulders to help piece this together and the volunteers and that government was funding this, that we had a policy to make sure that kids were going to school and that healthy food was there? How would that help you?

MARLENE EVANS: Oh, absolutely. I mean, it would just I mean, sometimes when those grants run out, we have to look for many other places in our budget. So our principle is very good about that. And this way, I mean, we would just have we could even offer more more like more food, different varieties. Even we run during Christmas. We do 20 some hampers for our families every year. And that and we would just have extra money and extra items available to support families that they need during this time.

MG: Amanda, for you, what would a national programme mean if government were to step up the federal government and say, we're going to, like other G7 countries, make sure the kids aren't going to school hungry

AMANDA ROUSE: at the end of the day, this is about the kids and any Brunswick. You know, one in four kids in New Brunswick live in poverty. And I think that it's time for us to have that conversation and to take away that stigma from those kids. They should be able to have dignity. They should be able to have a full belly and not have to worry about whether they're going to have supper or whether you know, whether they can concentrate to get a good education. If we can have a national programme, then we can give those kids a better opportunity for their future.

MG: I love hearing about the good work that people are doing across this country, and you too are a big part of that. Thanks for what you're doing and thanks for telling us about it.

GUESTS: Thank you, have a great day.

MG: And you, too. Marlene Evans is an education assistant who coordinates the food programme at her Winnipeg elementary school. Amanda Rouse runs the local volunteer lunch delivery programme and the kind of a case valley in New Brunswick while schools are closed. As you heard, advocates say that this is the time for the federal government to implement a national school food programme. For more on what that programme might look like, I'm joined by Debbie Field, coordinator for the Coalition for Healthy School Food. This is made up of 180 organisations across this country. She joins us from Toronto. Debbie, good morning.

DEBBIE FIELD: Good morning.

MG: You heard Amanda and Marlene there. What do you make of just briefly what they're going through to make sure that that, as Amanda was saying, kids don't come to school with an empty belly and they're not worrying about whether they're going to get supper at night.

DEBBIE FIELD: Well, I'm I'm tremendously proud of them, but I want to bring us back to the very end of their conversation, which is how could their life be easier? How could the children's lives be easier with a national school food programme? And that's why it's very exciting to be talking to you today, Matt, because for the first time, this is actually going to happen in Canada, hopefully in March 2022.

MG: Why don't we have a national school food programme? There was a report that came out from UNICEF in 2017 that ranked Canada 37 out of 41 wealthy nations when it comes to kids access to healthy food. Why don't we have this programme?

DEBBIE FIELD: Mostly for an interesting historic reason, which is most of the other G7 countries began their school food programmes during an earlier phase? Actually, it's interesting. It's actually 1850 to 1950 is phase one of school food, and that's the welfare phase. And that's when it was looked at as a poverty initiative. And that's interesting. I want to come back to this because I am afraid still in our conversation this morning, reframing it a bit as a problem around poverty instead of where it's coming in the world to look at school food as health for all children. But anyway, the historic reason in Canada is in the cabinet table and forty 1948 in a good way, the government said we will give families adequate income instead of go. The US and UK targeted poor kids school food programme. So we didn't have one then, but as I'm sure every listener knows, we have a very different food system. And in the evolution of school food programmes, there's Phase two, which was starting to look at healthy food in the 70s and where we are now, which is phase three. Looking at food system approach, food literacy, local procurement, healthy food for all children. And we're really hoping our government will listen clearly to the global research and join this conversation. Not about it being a welfare programme, but it being a health programme for all children of all income levels.

MG: What's the distinction between the two? Because, as you said, I mean, the focus can be on poverty. In many ways. That's at the root of why kids are going to school hungry, but you're broadening it beyond that.

DEBBIE FIELD: Well, I don't think it is. I mean, again, we did a great study in Scarborough. It's one of the only Canadian studies of its kind Scarborough Hunger Coalition years ago, and it was a study of people in a couple of neighbourhoods in Scarborough. And it interviewed people at community centre, at the food banks, at the schools. And what it found was that breakfast skipping was not related to income. And I'm pretty sure people who are out there listening know that kids in Canada who get on a bus early and don't feel like eating at home, double income parents, kids who are looking at television wanting fruit loops for breakfast. There's a variety of reasons why kids don't eat healthy food in the morning. And for sure, income is and I don't want to in any way downplay the amazing and complicated stories of the three fabulous women you interviewed earlier. So, for sure, income can be a component. But the real crisis is we live in a society which promotes the least healthy food, and it's only through a universal school food programme that all of us parents of all incomes can ensure that our kids will a access healthy school food and b learn about healthy school food, liquor and food literacy, learn how to cook and grow food and eat food, and have on a different approach to their health for the rest of their lives.

MG: So what would that programme look like then, in the best case scenario in this country?

DEBBIE FIELD: Well, we're just about there. I mean, right now in Canada, moving into this federal negotiation, we have great news. $93 million a year comes from every province, including the two provinces that you mentioned, New Brunswick, the last province in. But every province is doing something. Some cities, our city, Toronto is the leader, probably in North America, in terms of also being cost shared with the province to have an amazing mid-morning snack programme here in the city and throughout this whole of Ontario. So the good news is all of this grassroots stuff that we've done, that lots of us have developed these great programmes, lunch programmes, snack programmes, breakfast programmes that are did their best with limited funds, and that's the amazing resilience of the three women you heard from. But now it's time to up our game on this and make sure that it's quality food and that their staff and their kitchens, and that all children can participate, which can happen in March 2022. Budget Just yet, the federal liberals in their election platform committed $1 billion, which is great news the largest food policy commitment actually in Canadian history, one billion over five years to launch a school food programme. And so two hundred million hopefully will roll out in budget 2022. Hopefully, that'll be accepted by the provinces. My coalition is doing a lot of work to make sure the provinces say yes in the same way that they have to child care, and hopefully Ontario will say yes to and we will then have a shared beginning of something.

MG: And is that you need the cost share part of this. But is that about providing funding? And then the individual school boards and community groups helped design what the programme is going to look like so that it suits their community in this sprawling, diverse nation of ours?

DEBBIE FIELD: Yeah, I know, and it's it's interesting that you bring us back to that because in a way, we're lucky. In a way, Canada has an opportunity to design the best school food programme in the world without a kind of top-down cookie cutter model, which you know, the U.S. you know, we've all heard so much, you know Jamie Oliver complaining about the school food programme in England. I mean, a lot of what the U.S. and the U.K. have done is not been exemplary because it was that top down. Rather than bottom up approach in our school food programme in Canada, we will have whole in one community. We will have the ability to serve caribou and local foods, indigenous communities. And I just want to take a moment for that because one of our big recommendations to the federal government is they need to negotiate a separate arrangement with indigenous leaders and nations. This 200 million dollars is, first of all, not enough money to spread to the indigenous schools, which are completely under control of the federal government and also given the history of residential schools and the history of relations with indigenous nations, we're really urging the government to do a separate negotiations. But this other money, yes, will allow for the community based approach that you're talking about

MG: is, is there a model that we can base this on? I mean, whether that's in this country already or somewhere else?

DEBBIE FIELD: There's a couple of great models. You know, it's actually interesting. P.E.I., our smallest province, did an amazing thing during COVID. They have implemented a universal lunch programme. Pay what you can. Healthy lunch programme. And there's a great software that can help us with stigma and all the kind of conversations you had again with the panellists before. So in P.E.I., the P.E.I. Home and School Federation, which is a member of our coalition, went lobbied for years in their government and convinced their provincial government. They also convinced them to create a new, not for profit organisation that could manage this new lunch programme. And then Matt and Debbie and all the different Amanda, different people could sign up. I could. Maybe, maybe I can only afford a quarter a day for my lunch, and maybe Matt can afford $5 a day for his child's lunch, and all of our kids would eat the same. No one would know the difference, and the P.E.I. not for profit organisation can control the menus, the quality of the food and can actually, in some communities, use local chefs in other communities, use local not for profits or school board providers. So it's a very exciting model.

MG: You said no one would know the difference that goes back to the stigma piece of this. You've seen this firsthand in terms of what this can mean. Can you tell me about that briefly?

DEBBIE FIELD: Sure. So I grew up. It may be that I work on school food because of this experience, so I grew up in a low income family. My father was a died when I was young. My mother worked minimum wage jobs and when we lived in New York. So I was born in Illinois, and then we moved to New York. I was able to benefit from a free hot lunch programme. But it also was a stigmatised programme, and I would line up with my little girlfriend, whose parents could afford to pack her own lunch. And then I at one point we split and I was going to the quote poor kids cafeteria and eat this great meal, which I still adore, you know, meatloaf and mashed potatoes and frozen peas. US Department of Agriculture surplus product. I love to lunch, but I also remember the stigma. But more importantly, I want to bring it back to something you talked about in the very beginning of the interview. My mother worked minimum wage jobs. We were low income and that. School lunch programme did not make my mother any less poor. So it is school food is not an exchange for welfare reform. Adequate minimum wage. Adequate welfare rates. But my mother also talked endlessly about how it took the pressure off the family budget, and she was able often we would have meals and cottage cheese for dinner because I had a good lunch, and she talked about the reassurance of that. So this is not a silver bullet. School food is not deal with income issues, but it is a support to low income women and it has to not be stigmatised or it'll backfire. Nobody wants to raise their hand and go into the poor kids cafeteria.

MG: Just finally, we're just about at a time, but you've talked to a couple of times about the potential of this in the budget promises and not to get into politics too deeply. But promises are made and sometimes they aren't fulfilled. In the immediate future, you're quite optimistic that now is the time and that politicians will seise on this opportunity.

DEBBIE FIELD: 100 percent Minister Bibeau, Minister of Agriculture and Agriculture Minister, Coold, Minister of Families, Children and Social Development. They are talking as we speak. We're meeting with senior policy people and politicians of all parties because this is non-partisan. This is going to happen, and I hope you invite me back and celebrate it in March 2022.

MG: I look forward to doing that. Debbie, great to talk to you, as always. Thank you.

DEBBIE FIELD: Thank you. Take care.

MG: And you, Debbie Field, coordinator for the Coalition for Healthy School Food. Your thoughts on this? One of the neat things is just the work that people are doing across this country, as we heard earlier. To help fill that gap and fill those bellies, if you know of similar work, maybe you're involved in it. Maybe you have been the recipient and the beneficiary of some of that good work. We'd love to hear from you. Email us thecurrent@cbc.ca. That's The Current for this. Thursday comes up next on CBC Radio One. Earlier this week, we wanted to end with some music. This is a really sad story coming out of Quebec. Quebec lost this brilliant musician Karim Ouellet found dead on Monday in Quebec City, just 37 years old. He was an amazing force, won a Juno for his second album, Fox, in 2014. Known for fusing pop soul and hip hop and being a voice for the African diaspora in Quebec will leave you this morning with carrying wallet. This is L'Amour. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current and we'll see you tomorrow.

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