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The AIH Transcript For January 19, 2021

[hosts]Carol Off, Chris Howden[/hosts]

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden, this is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

CO: Tale of the red tape. As Canada's former Afghan allies flee from the Taliban, we ask the Minister for Refugee Policy why he can't simplify the process of getting them out.

CH: Too close for comfort. A Black lawmaker in Florida tells us a bill backed by the state's Republican governor may not explicitly ban teaching about race -- but by emphasizing the prevention of anyone's "discomfort" -- it's doing just that.

CO: Raising the bars. Rappers like Jay-Z and Meek Mill say prosecutors shouldn't be allowed to use rap lyrics as evidence -- and the man who wrote an open letter signed by both artists say their involvement is evidence of change.

CH: For crying out loud. Like so many of you, I'm still weepily processing the news that Carroll is moving on to other projects. So we figured we'd process together by taking to Talkback.

CO: Beauty, no Beast. A new vegan violin is free from animal parts, and it's also far from free -- but when its creator explains all the work that went into it -- its $13,000 price tag starts to seem sound.

CH: And flush with cash. Italy's Supreme Court orders some apartment owners to compensate their neighbours and remove the noisy toilet that's been keeping them awake -- saying it's nothing short of a human rights violation.

CH: As It Happens, the Wednesday edition. Radio that guesses there's no restroom for the wicked.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Afghan Refugees: Minister, Rap Lyrics In Court

Afghan Refugees: Minister

Guest: Sean Fraser

CH: Sean Fraser had some good news to share on Twitter this morning. Last night, a flight with more than 200 Afghan refugees aboard landed in Vancouver. Canada's Minister of Immigration, Refugees, and Citizenship wanted us to know that "many put themselves at risk to help Canada before, during, and after our mission in Afghanistan." But many of Canada's other Afghan colleagues are still at risk. And, whether they're dodging the Taliban in Afghanistan or scraping by as refugees in Pakistan or Iran, they're desperate for Canada to deliver on its promise of a safe haven. We reached Canada's Minister of Immigration, Refugees, and Citizenship, Sean Fraser, in New Glasgow, Nova Scotia.

CO: Minister Fraser, it was great to see the photo you tweeted of Canada's Afghan allies arriving in Vancouver, but we know that Canada identified thousands who needed that kind of assistance, who were targeted by the Taliban for working with us, and we were going to help them, and that was in the summer. Why is it taking so long to get them out?

SEAN FRASER: Well, look, let me start by saying how pleased I was to see that flight arrive last night. But more importantly, we're starting to see a regular pacing of arrivals. We saw, obviously, the 200 just… just yesterday evening, but last week, 250, including 170 human rights defenders. But to answer your question, the challenges in Afghanistan are extraordinary. We had an influx of just shy of 4,000 in the immediate evacuation. But then, of course, when Canada lost its diplomatic presence after the fall of Kabul, getting access to the people who may have made an application facilitating their safe passage from Kabul to Canada is extraordinarily challenging in a way that most people who've not been to a war zone could appreciate.

CO: Right, I'll have to make a full disclosure here that I've been working with Journalists for Human Rights, one of the agencies who is helping to get Afghans out of the country. And so… but that's given me a pretty good sense of what's going on. You say that they've applied, many of them were identified, we're told by Canada that they would get this assistance, but then they were told that they'd have to find their own way out of Afghanistan first. And we know… we know that many of them have disappeared since then. Their houses have been burned down. We know that some are killed. We know there's a 10-year-old girl who was shot dead by the Taliban as they drove around trying to get the paperwork. All the just red tape they have to go through in order to do what your government says they must do. So what are you doing to help them get out of the country?

SF: Look, one of the things that I think is a really helpful comparator is a lot of Canadians are looking at the government's effort in Syria and the pace at which we moved people in the early days of that effort. The situation in Afghanistan is nothing like the effort to resettle Syrian refugees. In Syria, we were dealing with people who were three years removed from the outbreak of the civil war, and hundreds of thousands or millions made it out of the country into refugee camps that were being centrally managed by the UNHCR that had processed people for security reasons, that had access to an airstrip that was functioning, who had no trouble accessing travel documents. In Afghanistan, none of those advantages are present. We're dealing with months since the fall of Kabul. We do not have a diplomatic presence to facilitate the safe passage of people through Afghanistan or outside of Afghanistan. If the Taliban wanted to help us, which they don't, they wouldn't be very good at it. Without a presence in Afghanistan, we're dealing with a situation where the Taliban is controlling which travel documents people need to exit the country, to potentially pass through checkpoints within the country. And the documents that are being required of the third countries that are being used as a lily pad before people travel onwards to Canada, Those documents change based on where you're going and how you're getting them. There are conversations happening every day between our partners in the region to help facilitate the safe travel of… of these vulnerable human beings to their final destination in Canada. But make no mistake, despite these immense challenges, we are not wavering on our commitment to bring 40,000 Afghan refugees to Canada, including some of the groups that you've mentioned that we're working very hard to bring here every day.

CO: Okay, the 40,000 over you've said it might take two years to get those refugees to Canada. I'm talking about the smaller group that you identified -- Canada identified -- as those who had helped us, helped people like myself as a journalist. I couldn't have done my… my work without them. Canada couldn't have done its job without them. They risked their lives every day to work with us. But when you talk about the Syrian refugees, we brought 100… in 100 days, we brought 25,000 Syrians into Canada. And part of it was because you had agreements with countries in place that was going to help with that. So you said you're in conversations now with them? These people are about to be deported from countries like Pakistan and Tajikistan and… and from Qatar. So why don't you have those agreements in place already?

SF: On the issue of expired documents, we know that this is an issue. We are having conversations with the folks where people currently are that would like to come onward to Canada. I have confidence that the people who've been approved for onward travel to Canada will be able to… to find their new homes here. There are going to be conversations that we will have to have because we need to… not everyone is at the exact same stage in their processing. So when there are particularly troublesome cases or cohorts of individuals who are facing a potential expiry of the travel documents, we reach out to the… our partners in the region to help ensure that those people, which Canada has a responsibility to, will not be sent back to Afghanistan, where they may face persecution or torture or worse. For the other groups, and you raised this sort of indirectly, the people who've helped us, those people are largely not exclusively, but largely still in Afghanistan. The last time I'd seen an update on the numbers, there was 9,500 people who'd already been approved to come to Canada that are within Afghanistan. When we don't have the means to facilitate their travel inside Afghanistan because we don't have presence there, it makes it extremely difficult for those families. Notwithstanding the difficulty, we still intend to make good on a commitment to make space for them to come to Canada. And we work every day to try to facilitate new ways to ensure their safe passage out of the country. It's not going to be easy. It's been difficult to do, but we are starting to see people who fall into those categories arrived here in Canada, including as recently as last night with that flight in Vancouver.

CO: Okay, you say that you are trying to prevent people from being deported. We spoke with a woman in Nova Scotia last night, Nicole Wood, who's helping a family to come to Canada. She is quite concerned that he… his visa means that… in Pakistan means he has to go back to Afghanistan every month to get it reprocessed. And every time he does that, which is going to be in a few days now, he risks his life. He could be… he could be disappeared. So it sounds like there are those who are not being protected by Canada as… as they work through the process to come here?

SF: Well, look, I think that the one… one exception I would take is that the idea that there are people who are not being protected by Canada. We are literally making space for the purpose of giving protection to some of these people. I can't offer comment on individual cases without having all of the details at hand, and I need to respect the privacy, as well, of individuals who are going through the process. But the entire reason that we've made a commitment to bring 40,000 Afghan refugees with a specific focus on those who've helped Canada in our time of need is because we believe that we have a moral obligation to help those who helped us. There are going to be bumps along the road. There are going to be challenges. But this has got my full attention and is the file I've spent more time on than any other since I was appointed because it's a top priority for the government of Canada.

CO: Minister Fraser, we will leave it there. And I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

SF: Pleasure, as always. And thank you for your interest in this… this portfolio and your work to help with Journalists for Human Rights.

CO: Thank you. Bye-bye.

SF: Bye-bye.

CH: Sean Fraser is Canada's Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship. We reached him in New Glasgow, Nova Scotia. And you can find more on this story on our webpage at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient]

Rap Lyrics In Court

Guest: Erik Nielson

CH: Johnny Cash once sang that he "shot a man in Reno just to watch him die." But no one ever actually believed that he'd shot anyone in cold blood -- in Reno or anywhere else. When it comes to violent rap lyrics, though, some prosecutors in the U.S. have proven extremely literal -- believing they prove a real crime has been committed. And now, major stars including Jay-Z, Fat Joe, Big Sean, and Meek Mill are calling for that to end. They've signed an open letter backing New York state legislation that would make it harder for prosecutors to use rap lyrics as evidence in court. Erik Nielson co-wrote that open letter. He's a professor at the University of Richmond and the author of the book Rap on Trial. We reached him in Brooklyn, New York.

CO: Erik, what does it mean to have stars like Jay-Z and Meek Mill show their support behind this bill?

ERIK NIELSON: Well, it means that we are getting some much-needed visibility for an issue that we've been working on for a number of years. And hopefully, it means we're going to see some real change, certainly in New York. And then, if that happens, hopefully in states across the U.S.

CO: There are some really outstanding examples of this, right? Can you give us a rundown of some of the most… the most famous or infamous?

EN: It would almost be difficult for me to pick an exemplar. I mean, we've identified hundreds of these cases. I mean, I can give you one. It was a New Jersey case where a man named Vonte Skinner was accused of shooting somebody else. It wasn't murder. I think it was manslaughter. And there was not much evidence. The state did not have much evidence connecting him to that. So what they did was they found some violent rap lyrics that he had written months, even years before the crime, which made no mention of the victim or, you know, which had no details that specifically connected it to the crime. And they read uninterrupted page after page of those lyrics in front of a jury. And he was found guilty and sentenced to, I believe, 30 years. That was ultimately reversed at the highest court in New Jersey. But that kind of reversal is… is incredibly rare. What we see far more often is that that type of tactic used by prosecutors works, and is not reversed.

CO: there's another example that maybe you can explain to us? The Los Angeles rapper, Drakeo the Ruler. Can you tell us what happened there?

EN: Yeah, that was a very unfortunate case. The Los Angeles County Police clearly had it in for him. And essentially, alleged that Drakeo orchestrated… attempted to orchestrate a hit on a rival rapper. And their evidence that he was involved was that he had a line in a rap song that said something to the effect that he had that rival rapper, you know, tied up in the trunk of his car, which nobody actually alleges ever happened. Nevertheless, they used his rap music and his rap lyrics to try to convince a jury that he orchestrated… attempted to orchestrate a hit that went wrong and resulted in the death of an innocent bystander.

CO: Now, the rap lyrics, though, do have details in them, right? That… victims, names of people, events. So is it… is it… are there cases when there… there could be evidence within rap songs?

EN: Well, I think hypothetically, certainly there could be. I've worked… I've probably worked on close to 100 of these cases, either as an expert witness or as a consultant. And I have yet to find an example of a rap song that actually chronicles in some way an actual crime. Most of these young men, and it's almost exclusively young, Black and Hispanic men, most of these men are using rap music… at least the ones that I've interacted with, are using rap music to elevate themselves for, you know, to… to… to… to escape the kinds of conditions that they often detail or describe in their lyrics. It would not make a whole lot of sense for them to publicly confess to crimes in detail. And I really have not come across a situation where I believe that that happened.

CO: We were… in… in the introduction, we mentioned how Johnny Cash once saying that I shot a man in Reno just to watch him die, and no one took that as evidence that he'd killed somebody. Is there… is… hip-hop and rap seem to be the only art forms that this is… that are taken literally in this way and used as evidence. Why do you think that's the case?

EN: Well, you are correct that rap music is the only fictional form -- musical or otherwise -- that is treated this way in the courts. You know, and I will say this is a practice that we see that's pervasive in the United States, but it's also… it's also happening in Canada. It's also happening in the U.K., and it's not hard to connect the dots. I mean, what prosecutors are doing is they are using rap music -- violent rap music -- in my view, to play upon and perpetuate enduring stereotypes about young, Black and Brown men. And it's very effective. There's lots of research telling us that people often find rap to be frightening, threatening in need of regulation, and so if you trot that out in front of a jury. You're more likely to get a conviction, even though you may not have sufficient evidence otherwise. It's a pernicious tactic.

CO: So what might change with this legislation? What are stars like Jay-Z asking to change with it?

EN: So essentially, what this is is… is it's not an outright ban on introducing creative expression as evidence. It really just shifts the burden to the state to show that, first of all, this… these lyrics are meant or are literal, not figurative. That it has a strong factual connection to the alleged crime. So it's not just sort of vague, you know, it's a song about shooting, and there was a shooting. That there are stronger factual connections between them. And that there isn't any other way to make their case. That… that this really is the most… the best and most probative evidence that they have. They have to meet that burden before it can be allowed. Again, that's if this were to become law.

CO: And it's already passed through the Senate Codes Committee, right, on Tuesday?

EN: Yes.

CO: So how hopeful are you that this will become law?

EN: I'm… I'm… I'm going to… I'm cautiously optimistic. If not, we're not going to stop. We're just going to use this effort as a building block for future efforts,,, both here and in other states across the country.

CO: Erik, we'll leave it there. I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

EN: Thank you. And I will say that I saw on… I don't know, on Twitter or something, that you're leaving the show after a long time.

CO: Yeah, it's true. [both chuckle]

EN: For good things, I hope.

CO: I… yeah, I hope. Yes. Well, this is a great show. So yes, it's hard to top it. But yes, that's… that's my hope.

EN: Well, best of luck, and I really appreciate you having me on.

CO: Thank you, Eric. Bye-bye.

EN: Okay, take care.

CH: Erik Nielson co-wrote an open letter signed by Jay-Z and other rap artists, calling for rules that would make it harder for prosecutors to use rap lyrics as evidence. We reached him Brooklyn, New York.

[Music: Folk]

Talkback: CO Leaving

CH: I don't know about you, but I'm suffering from a bit of an emotional hangover this evening. It's mostly just an emotional one. Last night, Carol broke the news that, after almost 16 years as host of this show, she's decided to move on. She'll hang up her headphones in the As It Happens studio for the last time at the end of February. We're all still coming to terms with that. And judging by your responses, it hit you hard too. Here's just a small fraction of the anguished feedback. Seth Levinson in Nova Scotia writes: "I'm gobsmacked by the news that Carol is leaving ... Holy crap." And from Shannon Purves-Smith in Elmira, Ontario: "Carol Off is leaving my life. It is the same as losing a member of my family ... Go, Carol, but remember we all will miss you forever." We heard this from Pat Cotman: "What I'm going to miss the most is the way you make me feel. Your sweet giggle, because when I hear it I always smile. And your way of offering your condolences ... because when I hear your authentic offering I find tears in my eyes." Arthur Blaxley writes: "I have been listening to As it Happens since I was 20 years old. I'm now 36. It is my favourite show ... and I am always disappointed when I turn the radio on at 6:30 and then realize it is the weekend." And from Chris Magnus, an invitation: "When ... travel becomes an acceptable option, please come to the parts of Canada you have influenced, including Crescent Beach, B.C. You would not know how much you have helped all of the listeners through the news ... unless you meet them." And here are some of your calls:

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: Message machine beep]

FRANK HUTCHINGAME: Hi, it's Frank Hutchingame calling from Gracefield, Quebec. And choosing your favourite segment would be impossible, but both my wife and I remember her interview with Brian… I think it was Borowski, a witness to a shooting in Colorado, who ultimately broke down and grappled with survivor's guilt, I guess, wishing he could have done more. Carol reached out to Brian and explained to him that it was not his fault. We had to pull off the road as our eyes welled up, listening to her… her humanity. So from Frank and Kim, at our cottage in Gracefield, Quebec, goodbye, and good luck. And for those long-time listeners, Gracefield Quebec, is 5,280 kilometres from Reading.

[Sound: Message machine beep]

BOO WATSON: My name is Boo Watson. I'm on Manitoulin Island, in Tehkummah Township. Carol, my heart is breaking. About a year into this pandemic, I said, okay, the one thing I am going to do, I am promise myself, is to go meet some of my favourite CBC hosts whenever we get to do that again. And then, if I ever get to do it, you won't be there. Oh! This isn't an ask. This is a wolf in pain. [expertly intimidates a wolf in pain]

[Sound: Message machine beep]

MARIA: Hello, this is Maria from Belmont, British Columbia. My family, we immigrated to Canada in 1995 from Austria. And As It Happens, was kind of with me all the time. This is the time where I cook supper for my large family. My English improved by listening to your show all the time, and it always felt like I'm travelling the world every… every evening, without having to go anywhere. So listening to all those talks you had, I cried with you, I smiled with you, and I laughed out loud.

CH: That’s just a few of the many, many, many calls and messages after you shared your news, Carol. I think it might be the only wolf howl, though. [both laugh]

CO: I love that!

CH: What's it like hearing all that?

CO: Embarrassing. Yeah, I… it's a bit like that joke. It's like, okay, enough about me. What do you think about me? [both chuckle]

CH: Yeah.

CO: So anyway, it's… I… I… yeah, it's lovely to hear. It makes me weepy, too. Thinking about that… some of those very stories. And so, yeah, I thank everyone who responded. It's just been overwhelming.

CH: And I'm sure it's just the beginning. We're going to hear lots more from our listeners in the coming days and weeks. Perhaps more people that you influenced, like Maria in B.C., whose English improved because of listening to you. In fact, actually, I'm going to do a shout out right now. How has Carl touched your life? You can let us know by calling Talkback and leaving a message: 416-205-5687. You can also send an audio message, a voice memo, to our email: aih@cbc.ca. We're on Twitter and Facebook: @cbcasithappens. And you can send an old fashioned card or letter to As It Happens. Box 500 Station A. M5W 1E6.

[Music: Folk]

Italy Toilet Battle

CH: And now, tonight's financial news. The global PMI is sitting at a comfortable 54.2. That’s up .1 from last July, but down 1.8 points…

[Sound: A powerful toilet flush]

CH: From… sorry, just a second.

[Sound: Flush continues]

CH: [clears throat] From last May's high of 56. Meanwhile, pork belly futures have risen 15.18 per cent over the past, um…

[Sound: A powerful toilet flush]

CH: The past five… the past five days, to… Look, look, I know Carol and I have to be in separate studios. What I don't know is why my studio is right next to a bathroom. It's a violation of my human rights. And if that seems melodramatic, you should know that Italy's Supreme Court disagrees. In 2003, a couple living near La Spezia, Italy took their neighbours to court, citing "intolerable noises" from a newly-installed toilet. It turned out the neighbours had built the water tank into a shared wall -- right behind the couple's headboard. So it woke them every time the neighbours flushed it. An issue -- according to court documents -- "aggravated by frequent night use." Well, now -- yes, 19 years of sleepless nights later -- Italy's Supreme Court has ruled that the toilet's disruption of the couple's sleep amounts to a violation of their human rights. It ordered the neighbours to pay the couple more than 10,000 euros, and to move that water tank. Which means… which means… I know someone is going to flush. Okay, fine, which means it's the end of the slumber potty.

[Sound: A powerful toilet flush]

CH: Ummmmmm…. Potty. The end of the slumber potty.

[Music: Funky guitar riffs]

Part 2: Florida Training Discrimination Bill, Vegan Violin

Florida Training Discrimination Bill

Guest: Shevrin Jones

CH: A new Florida law aims to ensure that white people don't feel "uncomfortable" or "guilty" when they are taught about discrimination. It's the latest Republican salvo against critical race theory and issues of systemic racism being taught in schools. The bill is called "Individual Freedom" -- and states that no one should be made to feel anguish or psychological distress on account of their race. Shevrin Jones is a Florida state senator. We reached him in Tallahassee.

CO: Senator Jones, what worries you most about this law and how it might be applied in classrooms?

SHEVRIN JONES: What worries me the most is us not telling the truth in American history -- Black history at that. And shielding students from the civil rights movement, from slavery, from redlining and things that happen. And to ensure that we don't go back to those times. And if we don't teach it, we're bound to go back to those days.

CO: So this law says that individuals in schools or businesses should not be made to feel discomfort. I think that the word they use, or guilty on account of… of their race. In this case, it's the white race, right?

SJ: Right. Correct.

CO: What is behind it? What's… what's… what do you think is really behind all this?

SJ: Well, it all stems from Donald Trump and his rhetoric that he spewed two years ago when it came to banning critical race theory in diversity, equity and inclusion training. And so, because the Republicans in Florida saw how it riled up the base, they continued on… on that in that same fight. It's a non-issue here in the state of Florida. It's a non-issue that's happening across the… across the country because critical race theory is not even taught in our classes. There are other issues that we need to be dealing with in Florida and in the other 10 states that this type of legislation has been introduced in.

CO: And just for people who might not know, critical race theory is… it's a way of thinking about America's history through the lens of racism. And centres on the idea that racism is systemic in your nation's and other nation's institutions. And they function to maintain the dominance of white people in society, right?

SJ: That's correct. And also makes it clear that race is a… is a social… social construct. It's not scientific or anything. America is one of the only places that… that does things based off of race.

CO: The law says that you should not be made to feel uncomfortable. Under this law, let's say, for instance, a white student claims that the topic of racism discussing the racist history of the United States is making them uncomfortable. And then, what happens? What… what might happen to the teacher who has run afoul of this law?

SJ: Well… well, according to… according to the… to the bill that's going forward, there's a provision that will allow parents to be able to sue school districts, which again, is not… is not the way that we should be putting forth policies, especially given parents a blank cheque to be able to... to sue if they feel that their child is uncomfortable. Let's be clear. History, there's nothing comfortable about history. There's nothing comfortable about Black history. There's nothing comfortable about Jewish-American history. There's nothing comfortable about Indigenous history. There's nothing comfortable about it. Of course, individuals will be uncomfortable about how these things have happened in the past. But the only way we're going to be able to move forward is we have to have these uncomfortable conversations.

CO: The bill is called Individual Freedom, and it says in part that an individual does not bear responsibility for actions committed in the past by other members of the same race or sex. And individuals should not be made to feel discomfort, guilt, anguish or any other form of psychological distress on account of his or her race. Is this law racist?

SJ: Yes. Period.

CO: Do you want to expand a bit?

SJ: [chuckling] Absolutely. I don't mind expanding. And the reason I did that is because one would know, especially someone like myself who is an African-American male, who… who know what critical race theory is, who have been taught critical race theory because I was taught it in my education masters program, is speaking about the history of Black America and the laws in America that affected Black Americans, that has gotten us to this point. Is this bill racist on the surface? Yes, it is. And I'm not one to throw the word racist out like that. I'm just not. But when I see it, I call it out because it's facts and its truth towards it. Because when you create policies that's based on whitewashing history, history of a group of people who have been oppressed in this country for over 400 years. But yet, still, you don't want to teach the truth behind it. That is racist on its surface.

CO: It's interesting what Governor… Governor Ron DeSantis, Florida's governor, says about this law. He says it's about combating racism, and he even quotes Martin Luther King Jr., and this is what he said. You think about what MLK stood for. He said he didn't want people judged on the colour of their skin, but on the content of their character. And that's why this law, he says, is not racist but against racism. What do you say to Governor DeSantis?

SJ: I tell Governor DeSantis to go look at Martin Luther King's speech when he was in college and then come back and talk to me about what the… what Martin Luther King spoke about in his his "I Have a Dream" speech. They are two different speeches. Everyone, they want to quote what's convenient, but they don't want to quote what challenges challenges them.

CO: Do you think that Governor DeSantis is racist?

SJ: I think the governor's policies are.

CO: And why do you think… why do you think they're doing this? What is behind this, do you think, this Individual Freedom law, so-called?

SJ: The governor is… he has a national agenda that he's pushing in Florida to show nationally that he is the one who is carrying the water for the Republican Party. That's why the governor is doing this.

CO: And who do you think this law will be popular with?

SJ: His base.

CO: And that's what… this is about… this is politics, then?

SJ: Yes, it is. All politics. It's always… it has always been about politics.

CO: Senator Jones. We'll leave it there, and I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

SJ: I appreciate talking to you.

CH: Shevrin Jones is a Florida state senator. We reached him in Tallahassee. And you can find more on that story on our webpage at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Horns!!!]

Tilbury Times Revived

CH: When residents of the small Ontario town of Tilbury learned that their local paper was shutting down in 2020, after 136 years, they took it pretty hard.

SOUNDCLIP

HUMPHREY ROGERS: People say, well, there was a car show out there on Saturday, how come you didn't go to it? I said I didn't know about it. Well, it was on Facebook. It doesn't make me feel very good. I don't know exactly what the word is for it. It's just, you're not on the in-group, to me. Because I hear it every day, didn't you see it on Facebook? You know, we got a meeting coming next week. I'll email you. I'm sorry, I don't have that.

CH: That was 87-year-old Tilbury resident Humphrey Rogers speaking about what the end of the Tilbury Times meant for him, during a CBC Radio holiday special in December. But it turns out it was just the beginning. Because when Mohsin Abbas heard that, he decided to take a drive to Tilbury, which is in southwestern Ontario. Mr. Abbas is a journalist who came to Canada from Pakistan as a refugee in the early 2000s. And now, he's the new publisher of the Tilbury Times.

SOUNDCLIP

MOHSIN ABBAS: I first read a letter last year, 2020, when the paper shut down. And it was owned by Postmedia, as you guys know more than anybody. And then, over Christmas, you guys ran a piece. Thank you for doing that. And I call it, you guys ruined my New Year because I kept thinking about the publication. And then, I went to Tilbury and met people. And I think within a matter of a week, we had a website up. We rebranded it. We call it For The Times We Live In. And because I came to Canada as a refugee years ago. And I think I know a lot about the importance of a small-town publication. And then, luckily, when I came to Canada, I worked in small towns, so I know how important it is. So I spend my New Year around that community, driving around, meeting people, and I see a lot of potential. People from the community are very motivated, very supportive. And it's all happening because of their support. And we will… we are a website, and we are bringing a print, not a weekly one, but a limited once a month, a print magazine format publication as well. Because seniors and community members, it's a very small community, they love reading something in their hand. So we will have something in print soon. We are working on it.

HAYDN WATTERS: And that's just so incredible. Like, I mean, you read about Tilbury and this happening there, and you're willing to use your personal finances to make sure the community has news. Like, I'm still trying to wrap my head around why you would do something like that? [laughing]

MA: Just imagine a guy who's in this prison, sitting in this Third World country and waiting to be killed in a police encounter. And then he leave that place, enter Canada and still alive and happy with a beautiful family 20 years later. It's a priceless. So what I'm doing is nothing.

CH: That was Mohsin Abbas, the new publisher of the Tilbury Times, speaking with CBC reporter Haydn Watters.

[Music: Jazz]

Vegan Violin

Guest: Padraig O'Dubhloaidh

CH: It takes talent, precision, and years of training to be a great craftsman. And Padraig O'Dubhloaidh has all of the above. For more than 40 years, he's been making and restoring violins. And now, once again, he has outdone himself. After years of research and trial and error, Mr. O'Dubhloaidh has finally finished what's being described as the world's first vegan violin. And he did it using berries and pears. We reached Padraig O'Dubhloaidh in Worcestershire, England.

CO: Padraig, when you look at this finished violin, which I understand you have with you right now, what kind of a sense of accomplishment does it give you?

PADRAIG O'DUBHLOAIDH: Well, you've asked me the most difficult question. Unbeknown to you, really, because violin makers are never really satisfied. You know, we're always trying to get absolute perfection. It's even a little bit more complicated in my case because I'm also a conservator of musical instruments, which means I work for museums and so on where what we're trying to do there is we're trying to stop time. We're trying to preserve cultural artifacts forever, really. We want to do as little as possible. We're trying to conserve not just the physical material, but the qualities that it possesses, the information it contains, the historical, cultural information, even sometimes religious, you know, and spiritual sort of connotations. So my sense of achievement, it sort of… it comes back, it's reflected to me in a way, you know, because my job is really to make a tool for the musician.

CO: So a violin is… many, many things go into making a violin, but what are… what are the animal parts? What did the… what do… what parts of animals get used in the production of a violin?

PO: Wow. It's surprising how many parts there are because a violin is a pre-industrial instrument, really. So most of the animal parts, I would say, are involved in the varnish. Now, when I say varnish, what you might call a varnish is really… is the topcoat on top of many other layers of wood treatments and sealers and wood treatments and so on. The other part that many people will also be aware of is the adhesive that holds the whole instrument together, which is the sort of gelatine, it's collagen, from animal waste products, really. When I say waste products, it's an awful term, but hooves and skin and bones and things like that.

CO: I understand you also ended up using some of your dyes also have traditionally used animal products and that you found other vegetable-based dyes to… in order to work with the wood inlays and… and the colours around it. Is that right?

PO: Yeah. One of the very, very few subassemblies that most violin makers are reasonably happy to use is the inlay, which we call purfling, which the inlays sort of black, white, black sort of stripe around the edge. And these come pre-prepared from factories, one presumes. And the reason I make this myself is that it's been very difficult for me to establish the adhesive that used to… to glue these parts together. So the easiest alternative was to make it myself.

CO: Wow!

PO: It is a bit more laborious, but it means I can guarantee that every part is… is free of animal products.

CO: What was the… the demand for vegan violins? Did you… was that… was that something people asked you to do?

PO: Exactly, yes. Yeah, I was asked to do it. And, you know, as I say, it's my job to provide the tools that the people wish. And when I attempted it, I found a lot of difficulties, really. I made my first prototype some years ago, four or five years ago, but it was okay. It was a vegan violin, but you know, I wasn't entirely happy. So my research continued until I reached a stage where I can absolutely guarantee that this is as good as I can make it and 100 per cent vegan.

CO: Are you going to sell it? Are you going to sell it? Are you going to provide it for somebody?

PO: Oh, yes, yeah. I mean, my belief is that we're sort of at the same stage with craft-making of all sorts, really, as we were some years ago with the petrol and diesel cars. And, really, I think the days of very intensive animal farming are numbered.

CO: But just on the subject of bows and strings, are they still made of animal products? Is that… isn't that horsehair?

PO: There's a great, great number of problems with bows. And I'm not a bowmaker, so I've kind of left that, I'm afraid, for others to… to… to sort of do the pioneering work. There are already substitutes for horsehair, and I've tried them, and they're pretty unsatisfactory from a maker's point of view. And in speaking to vegan violinists like Rachel Barton Pine, and she… she finds it unsatisfactory from the player's point of view. But it's a step. You know, it's probably some progress.

CO: I understand you have the violin with you there. So, can you --

PO: I do.

CO: Can you play just a little bit for us?

PO: Yeah, sure. I'll preface this by saying that I'm not a professional musician, but as you'll discover. So I'll just put my phone on speaker. Just a moment.

[Sound: A deeply resonant violin]

CO: Padraig, I don't think that our phone line does justice to your playing, but I get a sense of what it's like.

PO: [chuckling] Thank you very much.

CO: Padraig, thank you for telling us about the violin and for playing for us.

PO: Ooh, you're very welcome. I've been playing this violin myself quite a lot recently, and people I've played with, it's the first time, I've been complimented on my tone. [CO chuckles] So it's a fascinating little scientific experiment. But again, it's… this is how I take my satisfaction from other people's judgements.

CO: All right. It's good to hear. Padraig, thanks for speaking with us.

PO: Thank you for calling.

CO: All right. Bye-bye.

PO: Thank you. Bye-bye.

CH: Padraig O'Dubhloaidh is the creator of what The Vegan Society organization says is the world's first vegan violin. We reached him in Worcestershire, England.

[Music: Instrumental]

B.C. Meteor Update

CH: Back in October, Ruth Hamilton got the rudest possible awakening. You may remember hearing her story. The woman in Golden, B.C., was sleeping when her dog started barking, there was a huge explosion, and debris was thrown in her face. Soon thereafter, she found a meteorite between her pillows, which had come through the roof. Since then, Professor Phil McCausland has been leading research on that meteorite. Here's some of what he has to say about the investigation so far -- and about how he connected with Ms. Hamilton.

SOUNDCLIP

PHIL MCCAUSLAND: What she did was she got in contact with us through a website and a web form and an email address that anybody who has a possible meteorite can get in contact with us. So she did that. She followed that route. And I’m at the other end… the receiving end of those, and as a meteorite researcher at Western. And so I got her report that basically said a meteorite came through my roof and landed on my bed. [SP laughs] That's it! You know, so that's fairly direct and to the point. And then she sent an email that had images, and I looked at the three pictures and I said, yes, this is the real deal. Okay, I'm going to get in contact with her. And I did.

SARAH PENTON: So let's talk about that meteorite. What did you… so you had it in your possession to study. What did you find out?

PM: The basic things that we're doing when we have it, basically on loan, it belongs to her, so she has it back. Basically, what we're looking to do is we're seeking to establish what kind of meteorite it is. I mean, there's no doubt it's a meteorite. [both chuckling] From its arrival, that's what it did. But, you know, what… we have to report it to the Meteoritical Society, to the meteoritical bulletin, and it becomes an official meteorite that way. So we have to establish the case for that as to what kind of meteorite it is. So that's… that's… thus far, the main research we've done is to establish what… that it is.. So it's a meteorite, one of, you know, the 70 or 80 per cent of meteorites that fall to the Earth over time. They're really interesting meteorites because they represent a slice from the very early Solar System history before we had planets, really. This is material that was orbiting around the Sun. And so it's kind of a grabbag sample of things that existed 4.5 billion years ago. So we did some X-ray CT scans -- like a… like a cat scan kind of thing so you can see inside and see if there's anything, you know, interesting or different about it. And we also, with her agreement, we now have a small-type specimen that we can use and send off internationally to other researchers to help with the consortium study on this.

CH: That was Phil McCausland, an adjunct professor at Western University in Ontario, speaking with Sarah Penton, host of CBC's Radio West.

[Music: Ambient]

Part 3: Seagull Study + Archive: Seagull Hotel

B.C. Rancher

CH: Two months ago, when floods devastated British Columbia, Rhonda Macdonald watched her entire life's work float down the Nicola River. She and her husband own a ranch along Highway 8 in Merritt, B.C. And when the water receded, the province promised it would help them to rebuild and take care of their animals. But they're still waiting. And in the meantime, desperately trying to make ends meet.

SOUNDCLIP

RHONDA MACDONALD: We were guaranteed by the government that they would be rolling out their agri recovery program before Christmas this year. And to date, we haven't heard anything. And we are close… actually, tomorrow it will be 60 days since the flood. We have lost everything except five corrals. Our cows are going to start calving February 1st, so we're just living in limbo and day-to-day and trying to do what we can to get ready for the flood. You know, sadly, part of the problem is that nobody has come forward with funding for rip-rap or any idea of what we're doing moving forward. So chances of another flood happening are… are great. And as I speak, we have an ice jam building, you know, right in front of our house. So [laughing] it's a little nerve-wracking, to say the least.

SHELLEY JOYCE: That's… that's incredible. Have you reached out to the government at all?

RM: Yes, we have. I actually have a very close friend who has connections. She's been doing a lot of the legwork to help all of the ranchers and farmers and the Nicola Valley, and really hasn't received much of a response from anybody. It's just hurry up and wait.

SJ: That sounds very frustrating. How are your animals right now?

RM: The animals are fine. We're lucky enough that we had access to one of our hay sheds full of hay. Sadly, we lost close to 300 tons of hay. That's not 300 bales. That's 300 tons of hay. It left me scrambling to find hay, especially after we were promised by somebody high up in the government ranks that they would get hay for us. Then they just went quiet. And, you know, unfortunately, we waited on that promise for, you know, three or four weeks until we finally got confirmation just through silence that there was no hay coming. So it's really not an ideal time of year to be hay shopping. And now we're just hoping that there is going to be a program out there that will refund us some of that money from the government because that… that calf money needs to go to expenses accrued throughout the year.

SJ: Yeah. How strapped are you for cash at this point in time or for money?

RM: Oh, I think that everybody is. Personally, we're looking at approximately $450,000 of fencing that we lost. And $300,000 of irrigation equipment. Plus, none of our hay fields are usable at this point. The largest one is covered in three feet of silt and debris, so not even too sure how we're going to feed our herd come next year, other than will be in the same position. Except, I sure as heck won't be waiting for any government official to, you know, come through with a promise to buying hay for me. [laughing]

CH: Rhonda MacDonald owns the Bar FX Ranch along Highway 8 in Merritt, B.C. She was speaking with Shelley Joyce, host of Daybreak Kelowna. The CBC asked the BC Ministry of Agriculture when financial assistance might arrive and received this statement: "The governments of B.C. and Canada are working with industry on a program that will work for the various commodity growers in the different disaster areas. The two governments are working towards opening the program to applications in the coming weeks."

[Music: Ambient]

Seagull Study + Archive: Seagull Hotel

Guest: Jessika Lammare

CH: If you've ever watched seagulls screech at each other while fighting over a discarded pizza crust, it's unlikely that your first thought was "they're brilliant!" But a recent study suggests seagulls might actually be brilliant. Or at least, way smarter than we thought. Jessika Lammare is a researcher at Memorial University and the author of a new study that's published in the journal, the Royal Society Open Science. We reached her in St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador.

CO: Jessika, what made you think that seagulls might be smarter than we give credit for?

JESSIKA LAMMARE: So we started exploring seagulls because they have such a change in their diet because of human intervention, right? Like habitat destruction, overfishing and everything. And we just see them in different pockets of population across Canada, and their different populations within the same species are so good at adapting to their… in their current environment and exploiting all kinds of different types of food. And really, their numbers are exploding. I'm sure you see them all over Toronto. They were everywhere in Quebec as well and they’re here in Newfoundland, too. So that tells us right away that they are very adaptable, which usually means that they're very good problem-solvers, and they can figure out how to use all different types of food to thrive.

CO: Well, I guess anybody who's had their lunch stolen by a seagull knows [chuckling] that they're pretty clever. They can be intrepid and very good at getting what they want, right? But you decided to set out to test it?

JL: Yes, exactly. We looked in the literature, actually, and saw that there was barely any studies on the water birds in general, actually, and seabirds definitely, looking at their problem-solving skills because most of these kinds of studies are done in parrots and corvids , because, you know, you can study them in captivity, it's a bit easier. But we thought gulls are very tolerant of human disturbance, so they’re a great species to start this study on.

CO: And we… we know that there's been all kinds of studies on crows and parrots to see how clever they are at being able to… to use tools, to get what they want in order to adapt. All kinds of ways that they have really impressed us. So why is it that seagulls have this reputation for being stupid?

JL: That's such a good question. I can't… I'm not sure exactly. The only way I can tell you is that they're very hard to study because you can't just keep them as a pet in captivity. But also, their brain size, which usually correlates with intelligence is not that impressive compared to crows that have a massive brain size for their tiny body size. So I guess the assumption looking at their not that impressive brain size is that they're not that smart or they're not really impressively smart. But we're trying to prove that wrong. I'm really showing that they do have problem-solving skills.

CO: What did you do? Tell us about the tests that you ran them through.

JL: So we ran a test that's been used multiple times across different species of mammals and birds. So it's called the string-pull test, and it's a transparent box where we put a sausage inside a petri dish inside the box. And the only way that birds can get at that sausage is by pulling on a string that is tied to the sausage dish to the outside of the box. But usually, they wouldn't necessarily pull on the string. There's no apparent reason for them to be pulling on the string, so they have to figure out that the string is attached to the sausage, and by pulling on the string, they will get to that sausage.

CO: And how did the seagulls do?

JL: Very good. So most of them were only present for one of the three trials because we deployed that test in the field on wild birds. Twenty-five per cent of our sample size were able to get it right away. They just pulled on the string, ate the sausage and went about their day. So we were very impressed with that because studying wild birds in wild settings like that, usually the success rate is not that good because they're distracted by all other things around them. So a 25 per cent rate on the first trial is excellent.

CO: And then, how did they compare then with crows and parrots?

JL: Pretty similar. Unfortunately, there's not that many studies done on wild crows and parrots in wild settings. Lots of them are done in captivity and captive populations as well. But I would say that if we're comparing wild populations, wild populations are pretty equivalent to crows. Maybe a little bit not a good, but otherwise, pretty comparable.

CO: We did a story that's very well-known [chuckling] at As It Happens -- a man who had sausages in his hotel room, and he returned to find seagulls filling his hotel room, who had somehow got into a window because they knew sausage was in there. [chuckling] so if they can get into a hotel room, I'm sure they can get into this petri dish?

JL: Absolutely. Well, what's been fascinating, though, is that we studied them while they were incubating at their nests, and they’re are a lot less interested in food when their eggs are intubating. So I guess they're very and, you know, they're focussing on the incubation process. Whereas when we deployed it in this… in the foraging situation, they were even better. So I’d say if we were testing that test on foraging goals, probably our success rate would be like 95 per cent.

CO: Are you going to do any more tests?

JL: Yes, absolutely. We're going to deploy it actually on a wider range of species. So more water birds to replicate our results, first of all, but also to test other types of species. Because again, water birds are just neglected in the literature. So we want to show that, you know, whether they do have the ability to solve problem-solving tests or maybe they don't.

CO: And we know that we… we are fascinated with birds being able to do things. It's… it's fascinating. It's it's interesting. It's amusing. But at the same time, from the point of view of the birds, it's important, isn't it? Given that there is so much changing in their habitats?

JL: Exactly. There's very good evidence that the birds that are the most intelligent or the better ones at problem-solving are the ones that tend to thrive in novel environments or are able to start exploiting novel types of food. If you know the natural food that they were exploiting before becomes extinct or whatever it might be. So yes, the ones that are more intelligent do tend to thrive better and especially in human environments, compared to the ones that are not as smart.

CO: So do you think next time that you're getting your french fries stolen by a seagull, you should have admiration and not anger for that bird?

JL: Absolutely. They are cunning, too. So, [laughing] the more you will look at them and observe them, the more you will see how smart they are and that they are also observing you in return.

CO: chuckles] All right, because we're being studied for how we behave.

JL: Oh, well, they’re definitely studying how they can get your food out of your hands. [both chuckle] So you worry about that.

CO: Jessika, it's great to talk to you. Thank you.

JL: Thank you for having me.

CH: Jessika Lammare led a recent study on the intelligence of seagulls. She's a researcher in the Cognitive and Behavioural Ecology program at Memorial University. We reached her in St. John's. And, as Carol mentioned, we already had some inkling that seagulls were cunning, at least -- especially when it comes to getting their beaks on sausages. Back in 2018, we called up Nick Burchill. The Dartmouth, Nova Scotia man told us the story of how he got banned from the posh Fairmont Empress hotel in Victoria 17 years earlier, when a flock of seagulls invaded his room. Here is that conversation, from our archives.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: Nick, your story has gone around the world and back but you wouldn't do interviews. Why now? Why are you willing to talk to us?

NICK BURCHILL: More peer pressure than anything else. My friends are telling me I'm crazy, you know, if you get a chance to talk to as it happens go ahead and do it. My wife doesn't know I'm talking to you yet. I'll break that to her later.

CO: Oh, does she listen to the show? She might find out.

NB: Oh, she will.

CO: All right let's go to the Empress Hotel in Victoria, B.C. 17 years ago, and a story about what happened to you when you went back to your hotel room where you had left a whole bunch of Brothers pepperoni by an open window. What did you find when you got back?

NB: Not what I expected. I put the pepperoni out just to keep it cool. It was in the fridge of my room and I was gone for number of hours, like probably four or five hours. I opened the door, I was tired, I wasn't really paying too much attention, I just kind of walked into the room and shut the door behind me. It was just sort of an explosion of everything in the room. There were a lot of gulls. They'd come through a very small opening in the window.

CO: How many seagulls are in your room at that point?

NB: My guess would be somewhere between 20 and 40.

CO: And what were they doing?

NB: They'd been eating Brothers TNT pepperoni — I’m specific with the TNT because it's hot — they'd been eating that for about five hours and you can imagine what the room looked like.

CO: No I can't imagine, what did the room look like?

NB: They were carrying on their life processes in there for about five hours. So there were feathers, there was guano, there was everything. The shocking thing for me was the saliva. I didn't know that seagulls drooled. This slime was covering everything and they were whipping it up into the air and they were flying around. It was like a tornado. They were knocking things down — the curtains, the lamps, everything in the room was covered with feathers or one form of excretion or another. It was not pretty and the smell was pretty overwhelming.

CO: Why did you decide you should take this on? Why didn't you immediately call for hotel security or something to deal with it?

NB: To tell you the truth I thought that I could handle it. I opened the remainder of the windows and most of them left immediately. I had problems with a couple.

CO: A few of them were left, and so tell us how you managed to lose your shoe?

NB: Well, first I lost my temper and then I lost my shoe. I threw a shoe at one that was kind of bouncing around the windowsill — both the seagull and the shoe went out the window. What I didn't know they have this great thing in the afternoon called high tea at the Empress, and a lot of people line up to get in there and they pay a lot of money to go to this thing. Apparently there was a line of tourists directly below my front-facing window. Apparently I struck one of them with the shoe.

CO: But wasn't there also a hotel towel you heaved out the window?

NB: That was the last seagull, yes. I was trying to catch it. It had a piece of pepperoni and it was jumping around the room and it was a fairly large room. I went into the washroom, I grabbed a large bath towel and I jumped the seagull and I threw it out the window. The only thing is seagulls can't fly if they're wrapped in a towel. And it also plummeted into this group of tourists. So, I didn't know about the tourists at the time. I'm just trying to you know regain control of the room. So that was the last seagull.

CO: But it wasn't the end of your story because you were there at the hotel to start a new job and you had to get ready to go. How did you finally get this cleaned up, and, I guess, get your shoe back?

NB: Yes, I was trying to make a good impression during all this and I'd only be with my company for three months. And I only had one pair of shoes, I had to go to dinner, they were kind of a light brown leather shoe. I went out, I retrieved my shoe and the towel and I went back to my room. Now the shoe had become dirty, it had fallen into the garden down there so I cleaned it off with some water. But now I had one dark shoe and one light shoe, one of the shoes was wet. In retrospect I should have just got the other shoe wet, but I tried to dry the wet shoe using the little hairdryer. And the phone rang went into the next room to answer the phone, when I was in there the power went out and I realized that the hairdryer had vibrated free of the shoe and fallen into the sink full of water. And I don't know how much of the hotel's power knocked out. But yeah, at that point, sitting there with all that the mess from the seagulls and no power, I realized I needed help.

CO: A cleaning person arrived. How did she respond when she came to the room?

NB: It was just kind of a look of shock really. She was really underprepared for what she saw. I didn't even know what to tell her. And when I came back The Empress had moved me to a different, much smaller room, and I didn't get to go back to that room to see how well she made out.

CO: And you didn't get to go back to the hotel for 17 years because you were banished. You were banned from the hotel all the years.

NB: That's right. We were hosting the event that was taking place at the hotel and I had a bunch of customers there. So I think that's probably why I didn't get turfed immediately. When the event was over my employer did receive a letter requesting that I not stay at the empress ever again.

CO: And your request to return to that hotel, you drafted a letter, you were in your hotel across the street. You sent them a letter. Tell us what you asked the hotel?

NB: I just explained to them I would like to either have a pardon or at least have my 17 years considered as time served. Two days later I was at dinner and I got a phone call, and it was Ryan, the manager that I'd been speaking with at The Empress, and he was laughing and he said that they had reviewed my request and that I was no longer banned from me from The Empress. My ban had been lifted.

CO: So you can now return. Maybe they should give you — maybe that room doesn't even exist anymore. Maybe they had to shut it down Alfred Hitchcock style forever. But would you want to go back and relive any of this experience?

NB: I don't know what reliving it. I'm still kind of dealing with the scars from that first incident. But I was actually just at a restaurant up the street from The Empress when I got the call so I immediately went down and I gave them a peace offering of a pound of Brothers TNT pepperoni.

[LAUGHTER]

CO: All right Nick, it's great to have this story from the horse's mouth as it travels around the world.

NB: Thank you, Carol. Nice talking to you.

CO: You too. Bye-bye.

NB: Bye. We reached Nick Burchill, the seagull peperoni guy, in Dartmouth.

CH: From our archives, that was Carol talking to Nick Burchill -- who, in 2018, wrote an apology to the Fairmont Empress hotel in Victoria, BC -- 17 years after a flock of seagulls absolutely trashed his room.

[Music: Hip-hop]

Snowmobile Repair Guy

CH: A lot of hobbies have been picking up pandemic steam once again this winter. The sourdough starters of yore have been revived. At-home workouts are back in style. And if you ask Gaeten Mayer, now's the perfect time to take up vintage snowmobile repair. Well actually, if you ask Mr. Mayer, any time is the perfect time for his favourite pastime. But he says a growing number of aficionados now share his enthusiasm for sledding. And he's more than happy to introduce them to his lifelong passion.

SOUNDCLIP

GAETEN MAYER: As a child, snowmobiles were everywhere around me. You know, earlier on in the 70s, everybody was making them. In 64, there were only 12 manufacturers. By the 70s, it was over 250. And I was drawn to them like a moth to a flame. [JH laughs] They were ugly, they were loud, they were colourful and cantankerous, and I was just drawn to them.

JULIANNE HAZLEWOOD: What was… what was it about them? You say they're ugly, but you were drawn to them? What… what drew you in?

GM: Well, the more we go, the more they resemble… they resemble motorcycles. They're extremely high-tech as well. Computerization has taken over the… the engine component of the snowmobile. Not everybody can work on them anymore. You need specific knowledge. You need some training. Where as the vintage sleds are a very basic internal combustion engine with a lot of things that I find appealing, like gears and clutches and belts and tracks. And, you know, it's things you can see, things you can repair and easier to diagnose because they're so mechanical. And the vintage sled community, you start to know other people who have them, who need something. They would come over, would you have this? And we would trade and barter. And after a while, my… my collection started… started growing quite… [both chuckling] quite large. And it started being a regular thing. People would drop by. And in the beginning, I used to dismantle everything I would get for a few reasons. One, it takes a lot of room to keep a complete snowmobile. But what I started doing now that I have room is I would keep the completes. So I will sell a complete snowmobile, 99 per cent of the time, it's not running. There's something wrong with it. And it's… it's not a project. But I do have a very extensive collection of parts as well, so it kind of goes hand in hand. I'll sell a snowmobile and then kind of get a customer for life. They keep coming back to keep it going or to see what else has come through the doors over the last few months.

CH: Gaeten Mayer is the owner of Retro Sledz near Brockville, Ontario. He recently spoke with the CBC's Julianne Hazlewood.

[Music: Folk]

Equity Study

CH: There's a famous graphic that shows the difference between equality and equity. In one picture, three kids stand on wooden boxes, which are all the same height, to watch a baseball game over a fence. The caption beneath reads "equality." One kid is a giant. And appears to be balding. Probably a man, now that I think about it. Anyway, he's… he’s tall and doesn't need a box. The middle kid can see by standing on his box. But even with the box, the smallest kid can't see over the fence. But in the next panel, the tall balding kid -- the man, I mean -- has given up his box altogether. The middle kid still has his. And the small kid is now standing on two boxes, so he can see. All three spectators can spectate. Behold, equity! Actual equity. But not private equity. If there were a picture of that, there would be no boxes at all. According to new research out of France, that's essentially the approach private equity firms take after a takeover. The thing is, the research suggests that pay equity improves after a buyout. Except that's because higher-paid workers leave -- and cheaper ones are hired. As the researchers put it, "Investors reduce wage inequalities ... by separating from employees that might have been excessively paid." Okay. Or they're just separating from employees they'd rather pay less. Now, the researchers say the companies are just "searching for value". Which sounds less appealing than workers being valued. But, you know, maybe, it's an acquired taste.

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January 19, 2022 Episode Transcript

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