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The AIH Transcript For January 11, 2021

[hosts]Carol Off, Chris Howden[/hosts]

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden, this is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

CO: Get the vax, or pay the tax. Quebec's premier warns unvaccinated residents that they'll soon pay a literal price. And our guest says it's a radical proposal to deal with "radicalized" people.

CH: Widening the circle. Glenda Simms was a trailblazing, Black feminist in Canada and beyond. And two of her longtime friends tell us she was determined to make the movement more inclusive.

CO: Seeking closure. Twenty years after he helped build the first prison camp at Guantanamo Bay, a retired U.S. Marine Corps Major General calls on President Biden to keep his promise to close the facility.

CH: Howls of protest: A conservationist says Montana hunters are killing a record number of Yellowstone National Park's gray wolves -- and tells us lax legislation is to blame.

CO: Getting down to buzzerness. Some fans think an explosion of winning streaks jeopardizes Jeopardy's integrity -- but our guest says contestants are just showing the game show who's boss.

CH: And… crime doesn’t play. A California court says the Los Angeles Police Department had every right to fire two beat patrol officers, who were caught catching Pokémon instead of criminals.

CH: As It Happens, the Tuesday edition. Radio with an off beat sensibility.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Quebec Vaccine Tax, Guantanamo 20th Anniversary, Jeopardy! Major Winners

Quebec Vaccine Tax

Guest: Patrick Lagacé

CH: It was a day of departures and arrivals in Quebec's fight against COVID-19. The big news this morning was the resignation of Horacio Arruda as the province's Public Health Director. Dr. Arruda had been the face of Quebec's response to the pandemic from the start. Then, this afternoon, Premier François Legault announced that a new health care tax would be implemented -- a tax to be paid by the unvaccinated, who, the premier said, are consuming more than their fair share of scarce hospital resources.

SOUNDCLIP

FRANÇOIS LEGAULT: Yes, it's a big deal. If you look at what's happening in other countries or other states, everybody is trying to find a solution, a question of equity. Because right now, these people, they put a very important burden on our health care network. And I think it's normal that the majority of the population is asking that there be a consequence. And, yes, we will continue to look at spreading the use of the vaccine passport, but I think we have to go further. And I think that right now, it's a question also of fairness for the 90 per cent of the population who made some sacrifices. I think we owe them this kind of measure.

[/sc]

ML: The first thing is the groups of detainees would arrive… my staff judge advocate and my intelligence officer would meet the… the folks at the plane and ensure that we had collected and properly secured with a chain of custody any evidence, evidentiary materials that we might have because there were beginning to be talks at that time that some of these people may be guilty of serious crimes. Much of the evidence that I saw was pretty thin gruel. Several weeks later, I allowed the International Community of the Red Cross -- the ICRC -- to come in. To give the ICRC the ability to interview each of the detainees. At that point, I’d meet with the ICRC at least once a week, more often if they asked for it. And they were telling me, for many of these people, there wasn't a lot of there there.

CO: And you had… at peak, you had 680 prisoners at Guantanamo. And what we were learning at that point was that a lot of them were just people that somebody had a grudge against and turned in in Pakistan or wherever?

ML: That's absolutely correct, Carol. But also, to be very accurate, I was there for about 96-98 days. And when I left, there were exactly 300 detainees. But you are absolutely correct that many of these individuals were picked up on a battlefield because we were paying bounties for them. And what better way for someone to settle an old score and get paid for it than to turn someone in with fabricated information?

CO: We should point out that by October 2002, you had a Canadian by the name of Omar Khadr there, a teenager.

ML: Yes.

CO: Among many. Among those hundreds that eventually ended up there. Why do you think it's so difficult for various presidents -- not including Mr. Trump, who opposed changing anything -- but those who have attempted to close this facility? Why… is there no political will to do so?

ML: It's hard for me to say why there seems to have been a lack of political will. In some cases, I think that there's a realpolitik assessment as to whether or not the juice is going to be worth the squeeze? You know, on this 20th anniversary, I've done four interviews. Yours is the fourth, and only one was from a U.S. news outlet. So it almost appears that our other… the other countries are more interested in closing Guantanamo than we are. And that's a shame.

CO: There also seems to be a number of people in Congress -- Republicans -- who are quite determined to see it stay open, to see those detainees remain where they are, who say that, well, such is the sacrifice the Americans made during the… that followed 9/11 makes it the reason why those men can't leave. What do you say to them?

ML: Yeah. Well, first off, the argument that they make is not particularly compelling. You know, the other reason that it's so hard to close them is that, let's face it, some of these individuals were tortured. And they were tortured in black sites. And some of them were tortured in Guantanamo after I left. I did not allow torture or even any type of enhanced interrogation while I was there. But I would say that of those that are left, [clears throat] only 12 have been charged in the commission system. There are 39 left. There's 27 that have never been even accused of participating in terrorism. Some of the problems with closing Guantanamo involve getting those that are not charged and move them… moving them to their country of origin. The difficulty in transferring those prisoners and putting them from one bad situation into another is… is a real challenge. So then you have to decide do you ask a third country to take them?

CO: among the numbers that you're giving, we know there are 10 who face trial by military commission, and have been in proceedings that have bogged down for years. And that includes Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, who is the self-proclaimed mastermind of September the 11th. What is happening with those trials, do you know?

ML: Well, first off, the commissions have been an abject failure. One of the the recommendations that I would make is that the U.S. Federal Court System has been quite successful in prosecuting terrorist cases. It's about time to decide that the military commissions have been a failure and to put these folks into the federal court system. You know, I don't want to leave any question in the minds of your Canadian listeners that there are some people down there who are very bad people. You mentioned Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, and there's others as well who need to be held accountable, not just for purposes of justice, but for closure for those individuals who were the victims and the relatives of victims of 9/11. But having said that, it needs to be done in the federal court system and in accordance with the constitution.

CO: What do you… when you think back on your contribution, your role in that, [ML clears throat] do you think that the good could you have warned them? Were there things that you… that if you had had the ear of the president -- of George Bush -- at the time, do you think you could have warned anybody off this course that has now… is now so difficult to… to end?

ML: Well, I had the ear of Secretary of Defence Rumsfeld, who has passed away now. I think what you… because he visited twice while I was down there, I think you'd have to assume that people were listening.

CO: And why didn't they heed you?

ML: I think I think many of them had a view of the world as they wanted it to be rather than as it was.

CO: Major General Lehnert, we will leave it there. And I appreciate, once again, speaking with you.

ML: All right. Thank you, Carol, and I thank your listeners for their interest.

CO: Bye-bye.

ML: Goodbye.

CH: That was retired U.S. Marine Corp Major General Michael Lehnert. He spoke to us from Traverse City, Michigan.

[Music: Indie rock]

Jeopardy! Major Winners

Guest: Andy Saunders

CH: Last Friday, Jeopardy! minted its latest millionaire. Amy Schneider became the fifth player in the game show's history to reach the milestone. And she's not done yet. Here is how Ms. Schneider reacted after she passed the million-dollar mark.

SOUNDCLIP

KEN JENNINGS: Amy Schneider is an engineering manager -- and now a millionaire -- from Oakland, California. It's a weird moment. It seems like imaginary money out here. Have you had time to process it? You're now a game show millionaire?

AMY SCHNEIDER: I guess not really. You know, it's not… a million is not a word I ever expected to be, like, associated with me at all, [KJ chuckles] you know? And I think that and just like I really, like, the whole time, I felt more, like, what’s felt more real is, like, being good at the game. Like, you know, I've loved this game my whole life. And to be here doing so well at it, I mean, that's… that's what is the great feeling right now.

CH: With Amy Schneider's latest streak, Jeopardy! watchers have noticed a trend. Players are getting much better at winning. In the last five years, players have been going on more and more winning streaks -- and a quarter of those winning 10 or more games have done it in the past year alone. Andy Saunders is trying to figure out why. He runs TheJeopardyFan.com. We reached him in Guelph, Ontario.

CO: Andy, what's it like for you to watch a superstar like Amy Schneider play Jeopardy!?

ANDY SAUNDERS: Watching Amy really reminds me of watching Ken Jennings’ run from back in 2004. They play a very similar style, working the board top to bottom, low-valued clues to high-valued clues, and slightly more conservative Daily Double bets compared to what we've seen with James Holzhauer and Matt Amodio.

CO: So… and we're learning with these players that it's not a matter just of how much you know, and these people know a lot, but it's their strategy, right? So what techniques are working for her, do you think?

AS: Well, she is incredibly quick in terms of getting in first on the signalling device. Once the contestants are allowed to signal. So basically, once the clue is done, there's a staff member backstage who allows contestants to ring in. And whomever gets in first after that, gets to respond to the clue. If you're early, you're locked out for a quarter of a second, so there's a big timing matter there. And Amy has got the timing down really, really well, and is doing really well on Jeopardy!

CO: So, you know, there is a lot of discussion now about Jeopardy! and why are these extraordinary winning streaks… first of all, people are allowed to have them, but they're getting longer and more pronounced, aren't they? So what are your theories there?

AS: Well, you know, there have been a few times now where over the last couple of years, contestants have been called to be on the show. But because of, you know, changes in COVID protocols or other issues, those contestants have had to be rescheduled and have been given more time to prepare. Both Matt and Amy were examples of this. Where they were given a little bit more time to prepare just out of circumstances beyond their control, and they were able to take that extra time. And, you know, just learn more things, sure up areas where they were weak. And it's really paid off for them on Jeopardy!

CO: But even before COVID, these winning streaks were happening. So what… is there… are people getting more strategic? Are they knowing more? Or what do you think?

AS: Well, I think the fact that the information is more publicly accessible to them. There's a website that catalogues… is trying to catalogue every Single Jeopardy! episode. And so, over the past nearly 20 years now, every single clue, all of the data, is available. And more and more contestants are realizing this and using that data to help them prepare for the show.

CO: There's a comment that Michael Davies, the show's executive producer made, is that they're… basically, the shows are getting harder, the questions are getting harder, and also more difficult because there was a time when everybody was watching the same TV programs and reading the same books and that it's so… it's so fragmented now, isn't it? So, do you think that they're… given that it's actually harder, the questions are harder, and you have to know far more. What does that say to you? Maybe the contestants are getting better?

AS: I think the contestants are absolutely getting better as well. But, I mean, I would also say that that's happening across the board. I mean, also you've got, you know, even compared to 20 years ago, you know, we have our iPhones or our Android devices at our fingertips with, you know, the world of information, places like Wikipedia, where you know, people can go down this Wikipedia rabbit hole and, you know, learn a whole bunch of different things over the course of an evening, just clicking between the different articles. Whereas before, it was, you know, a lot more difficult to learn large amounts of information.

CO: These winning streaks are going to continue. Is it popular with viewers? Is it more or less fun to watch?

AS: It depends on the viewer. There are a minority of viewers who do think it makes the show more boring. But there… I would say that judging by the ratings that the majority of viewers do enjoy seeing the long streaks.

CO: And they do like having these kinds of champions don't they? We talked to Matt Amodio, whom you know was a big… big winner. He won 38 games of Jeopardy! in a streak. Here's a bit of what he had to say to us.

SOUNDCLIP

MATT AMODIO: I had a lot of different strategies in mind that I thought I might want to try going in. One of the things I said I'm going to try is to go from one category to another. And I found I was pretty successful at context switching really quickly. And I think that that helped keep my challengers off their feet because that might have been harder for them. And so that was one thing where I definitely embraced that strategy.

CO: That was Matt Amodio. What was it like to watch him from your point of view?

AS: I thought it was very exciting to watch Matt because he obviously was very strong at keeping his opponents off balance.

CO: We heard from Matt that he’s something of a technocrat when it comes to these things, [chuckle] whereas Amy Schneider talks about just the love of information. She just loves knowledge, loves being able to play with… with her knowledge. And so, it's very different strategies, isn't it?

AS: Absolutely. This is just, you know, something that we're going to see again. Ken, when he had to play against James, obviously had to move out of his comfort zone in order to win, you know, the Greatest of All Time tournament a couple of years ago. But, you know, it'll be interesting to see if Amy chooses to do the same thing or whether she'll try to stick to her initial guns about wanting to not play the game the way Matt wants to play the game?

CO: Is there an equivalent to a four-minute mile in Jeopardy!? Is there some milestone that you would eventually like to see beaten?

AS: I would. One thing that I'm not aware has ever happened, a game where every single clue on the board is gotten correct by one of the contestants. And then, with no incorrect responses. So kind of that ultimate perfect game, where all 60-plus Final Jeopardy everyone gets correct. Nobody incorrect.

CO: And then they'll just cancel the game?

AS: [both chuckle] No, I don't… I don't think so. But it would be really exciting to see, for sure.

CO: All right, Andy, we'll leave it there. Thank you.

AS: Thank you.

CH: Andy Saunders runs TheJeopardyFan.com. And we reached him in Guelph, Ontario.

[Music: Indie rock “Rubber Ducky”]

Part 2: Glenda Simms Obit, Montana Wolves Killed

Glenda Simms Obit

Guests: Merle Walters, Ewart Simms

CH: Glenda Simms spent her career making feminism a little more welcoming -- and lot more diverse. The teacher, activist, trailblazing feminist, and first Black president of the Canadian Advisory Council on the Status of Women has died. She was 82 years old. Ms. Simms was born in Jamaica, came to Canada in 1966, and began working as a teacher. Thirty years later, she returned to Jamaica to head up that country's Bureau of Women's Affairs. At that time, the issues of racism, sexism, and immigration were especially tense subjects in Canada. But she met those subjects head-on, during a speech at Memorial University in St John's, Newfoundland and Labrador.

SOUNDCLIP

GLENDA SIMMS: All of us must question the prevailing assumptions that Canada was settled and built exclusively by white Europeans. We must confront and identify the legacy of racism. I call on the women of Canada to be more involved. For me, the issues arising from racism and sexism are inseparable. So from the point of view of women, I say to my white feminist sisters, there is still a need to re-examine these issues together in our search for equity. We have seen a backlash. A backlash that is nurtured not just by bigots, the uninformed, the reactionaries, the haters, the sexists, the racists and homophobic, but also by liberal men and women who call themselves decent.

CH: That was Glenda Simms speaking in 1997 at Memorial University in St John's. The first Black president of the Canadian Advisory Council on the Status of Women has died. She was 82. Merle Walters was Ms. Simms' speechwriter, and her husband Ewart was the longtime editor and publisher of Ottawa's Black community newspaper The Spectrum. We reached them in Ottawa.

CO: Merle and Ewart, first of all, I'm so sorry for your loss.

MERLE WALTERS: Thank you.

EWART WALTERS: Thank you very much.

CO: Merle, I know you have heard Glenda Simms speak many times before. What's it like to hear her in that powerful speech from 1997?

MW: That just brought back memories of how she used to tackle subjects. And how she used to command the attention of an audience. And how she would just say it the way she felt it.

CO: And we should remember this is 1997. This was a very important time when so many advances for women in Canada. And yet, she's asking our white… her white feminist sisters, to realize that not everyone benefited from those changes. What was the message she was… she tried to send in her time as… as a feminist and as an advocate for women's rights?

MW: Well, she… she really thought -- and she put that in many of her speeches -- that feminism was a unifying force. And it should involve women of colour, women… Aboriginal women, poor women, rich women, you know, it should involve… involve everybody. And this… this really was a lot of what she said in many of her speeches.

CO: Ewart, I want to ask you about Glenda Simms. You called her Hurricane Glenda. What was she like?

EW: She was indomitable. She was strong. She was regal. She was a bright light -- a leading light -- here in Ottawa and anywhere she went. We've been looking over some of her reports of her speeches across the country, and I am still amazed that what she was able to… to… to… to do, to say.

CO: And she was the first Black president of the Canadian Advisory Council on the Status of Women. That was in 1990. And this was… she was up against a lot, wasn't she? Merle, just tell us a bit about what challenges she faced in that role?

MW: Well, as we talk about sexism and racism here, you know, this is all part of it. She was ready for that job. And it was in a transition period, so to speak. You know, when things were being revised, shall we say? But she had a sort of a mantra about how things should be done. And the thing was widening the circle, that means how you get other people involved. And not only that, her presentations to the government or government bodies was about gender analysis. How do you enact laws? You should think about how it will affect women?

CO: And did she have the support she needed from her white feminist sisters, as she calls them?

MW: To a certain extent, yes. Yes, what… as usual with everything, the expectations are there and the detractors are there. So she had a way of just working around or through them, you know? That's… that's how she was.

CO: And, Ewart, when she talks about the backlash, what is she referring to? Can you tell us a bit about what she… that backlash she was up against?

EW: Well, there was. There has always been a backlash in Canada against racism and against speaking truth to power in certain areas. One of the things she did, there was a police shooting and killing of an unarmed black man, Vincent Gardner, early in the ‘90s. The chief of police in Ottawa asked Glenda Simms to do the report. It is called Beyond Fear. But the point about it is that she had made herself the kind of person that the police chief thought should… was… was important enough to do this… this report on… on that, on the events around that killing. It speaks to the fact that there has always been resistance against acknowledging racism, and acknowledging wrong, and acknowledging that women have been suppressed. There has always been that. And she was here to make sure that everybody knew that that was the state of affairs. And also, presenting ways to deal with it.

CO: Can I just… before I let you go, can I ask both of you if there is a… how you will remember your friend, Glenda Simms? Is there a particular memory, Ewart, you have of her that you're going to cherish?

EW: Well, you know, we were frequent guests at her home. I mean, she invited us to dinner many times. We spent many hours with her. And Merle was her speechwriter, so Merle spent a lot of time with her professionally.

MW: What I remember most and cherish most. I was there when her first grandchild was born. That was something special.

CO: How many grandchildren does she have?

MW: I think she has seven now? [chuckle] They're all over the place. [chuckling again] I think she has seven now. But I remember the first one, yes.

CO: And she… and she was raising her own children while she was trailblazing, while she was getting a doctorate. She did all that and… and raised three children, I guess?

MW: Yes. Yes. Yes. That was it. That was the kind of person she was, you know, strong and… and motivated person.

CO: Merle and Ewart. Thank you both so much for talking about Glenda Simms with us. Thank you.

EW: You're welcome. Take care. Bye.

MW: You're welcome. Bye-bye.

CO: Bye-bye.

CH: Merle Walters was a speechwriter for Glenda Simms. Her husband Ewart was the editor and publisher of Ottawa's Black community newspaper The Spectrum. They were in Ottawa. Their friend, trailblazing feminist Glenda Simms, has died. She was 82.

[Music: Glassy guitar]

Interruptions To Dr. Fauci

CH: The hearing was meant to look at the big picture: how the U.S. is handling the Omicron variant. But as the daily infection rate hit a new record in the States, the discussion turned very, very personal. Kentucky Senator Rand Paul and President Biden's chief medical advisor Dr. Anthony Fauci have had several public run-ins before. And today, when Senator Paul repeatedly pushed Dr. Fauci about his contacts with other scientists, Dr. Fauci asked for uninterrupted time to respond.

SOUNDCLIP

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI: The last time we had a committee or the time before, he was accusing me of being responsible for the death of four to five million people, which is really irresponsible. And I say, why is he doing that? There are two reasons why that's really bad. The first is it distracts from what we're all trying to do here today, is get our arms around the epidemic and the pandemic that we're dealing with. Not something imaginary. Number two, what happens when he gets out and accuses me of things that are completely untrue is that all of a sudden that kindles the crazies out there, and I have threats upon my life, harassments of my family. Now… now, I guess you could say, well, that's the way it goes. I can take the hit. Well, it makes a difference. Just about three or four weeks ago, on December 21st, a person was arrested at a speed stop in Iowa. And they asked… the police to ask him where he was going? And he was going to Washington, D.C., to kill Dr. Fauci. And they found in his car an AR 15 and multiple magazines of ammunition because he thinks that maybe I'm killing people. So I ask myself, why would Senator want to do this? So go to Rand Paul website, and you see Fire Dr. Fauci with a little box that says, “contribute here”. You can do $5, $10, $20, $100. So you are making a catastrophic epidemic for your political gain.

CH: That was Dr. Anthony Fauci, speaking before a Senate committee hearing today in Washington, DC.

[Music: Horns!!!]

Montana Wolves Killed

Guest: Marc Cooke

CH: Yellowstone National park has become a rare haven for the gray wolf. Over the past two decades, conservationists have managed to re-introduce over a hundred of the animals to the park. But when the wolves wander outside the park boundaries, all bets are off. In recent months, a record 20 of the gray wolves have been killed -- after they've roamed out of the park. In Montana, the state has loosened hunting and trapping rules on the animals. Marc Cooke is the president of the advocacy group Wolves of the Rockies. We reached him in Stevensville, Montana.

CO: Marc, how did you react when you learnt that 20 gray wolves had been killed by hunters just in the last few months?

MARC COOKE: There's a lot of things going on that, you know, runs through your head. First of all, you're thinking about there was no need for this. Second of all, the reason that they're killing them is more they’ve been… when I say they, I mean the hunting community, unethical hunting community and outfitters that call that area home. They just… they've been waiting for this day, a long, long time.

CO: What do you mean waiting for this day? What is that? What are you referring to?

MC: Well, we had quotas. We managed to work with the commissions over the last 10 years, and they realized the value of these animals. And they realized the value of science and the revenue that these animals bring to the state of Montana. And the outfitters have been complaining for a long time that they want to get their hands on these animals. And with this new administration -- the Gianforte administration -- that has no value in science, he appointed, you know, two outfitters on the commission. He actually appointed five commissioners. Three of them don't have a clue, and then two of them are outfitters, so it's all about money.

CO: When you say Gianforte, this is Greg Gianforte, who is the governor of Montana and himself an avid hunter and trapper. And so, what are some of the new rules? What is he allowing to do in terms of allowing trappers to… to do in order to get the animals?

MC: Okay. They're allowing snaring. And, you know, it doesn't sound like a big thing, but it is because snares cost about $5, and you can literally put hundreds of them. There's no limit on how many you can put out. And with the snow on the ground, you can actually follow the paths that these animals take. So you have snaring, which is bad, to begin with. And second, you have baiting. In the areas close to the park. The outfitters would once again kill animals in that area legally like elk. And what they do is when they gut these animals, they leave the gut piles. That's a dinner bell for a… for a wolf or a grizzly bear. So what happens is, you know, they… they killing elk today, they come back tomorrow and the wolves are, you know, are hungry, Obviously. It's winter time. It's an easy meal. They have snares in there. They can sit over the gut piles and then kill these animals. And now, to make matters worse, they can use night observation equipment on their rifles. So where is the fair chase there? Where's the science there? This is pathetic. This man, the governor we currently have, doesn't believe in science.

CO: And we should point out that the governor, Gianforte himself, has received a warning from Montana Game Wardens about his own practices. He's trapping and shooting radio-collared wolves just outside. The park, right?

MC: Right. Yeah, that's true. And he took pleasure in doing so and communicating to his constituents in Montana and elsewhere in the world that love Yellowstone wolves that he did this and he just doesn't care.

CO: But the argument is that the ranchers and the elk hunters who are… they're blaming the wolves for killing big game herds or killing their livestock.

MC: Right.

CO: Is there a truth to those claims?

MC: There is truth to it. But here's the thing. There's an exaggeration here. You know, these wolves have… were here originally, to begin with. And then, because of the livestock industry, we killed them off. And then, to sit… to right a wrong and bring balance back to the system, the ecosystem, we reintroduced these animals. And then, practically the ink isn't dry on the reintroduction and we're killing these animals. So, yes, last year we lost about 50 cattle to, you know, depredation of wolves. But keep in mind, there's 2.6 million cattle in Montana. So when you do the math, it just… it isn't.. it isn't right.

CO: Just a question. Canada, I think, contributed a wolf pack to the park 25 years ago. Are these are descendants of those… of those animals.

MC: Yes. Yeah, you're absolutely right. Yup, that's… that's… that's for sure.

CO: And how many numbers have they increased by? What… what… what's the size of the pack now, or packs?

MC: Currently in the park, there’s… well, at the beginning of the season, there were around 125 wolves. But now we're down to from what I'm hearing that we know of, we're down to 95 wolves in the whole park.

CO: When you say that, it's a source of revenue in the park, what does that mean? Are they… because of the tourists who are attracted to the park because of the wolves?

MC: Right. That's what's going on. People are now going to the park to see wolves in the wintertime. It's some of the best viewing of wolves in the park. They're going in the mating season. Their behaviour changes. And it's really a fun, interesting time.

CO: If you could speak to Governor Gianforte, what would you say to him?

MC: Oh my gosh, what a great question! Why? Why are you doing this? Why are you allowing this to happen? Why are you unravelling, you know, almost 100 years of wildlife science? We used to be the… one of the pinnacles of the, you know, science-based management in research for all wildlife in the United States, and especially the park, in the world. And you have derailed all that. Why? Over money? Is it about money? And that's what I tend to think it is. I think they're commercializing wildlife. And what I mean by that is they want bigger elk. The outfitters want bigger elk. They want more elk. Even though we're over objective for elk in the entire state, they want more elk. And they don't want wolves killing bull elk. So the easiest thing to do is kill wolves. And I'm telling you, I was at a hearing the other day. Fish, Wildlife and Parks now turns its sights on killing more predators. They’re going to start killing more lions, and they're going to kill more black bears. And it's just a matter of time… if the Feds delist grizzly bears, grizzly bears are going to get hammered. And it's all over money.

CO: Marc, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

MC: Thanks. Take care.

CO: You too.

CH: Marc Cooke is president of the advocacy group Wolves of the Rockies. We reached him in Stevensville, Montana.

[Music: Fuzzy guitar]

LAPD Pokemon Don’t Go To Jail

SOUNDCLIP

[Music: “ Original Pokemon Theme” By Jason Paige]

JASON PAIGE: [singing] I want to be the very best. Like no one ever was. To catch them is my real test. To train them is my cause. I will travelled across the land, searching far and wide to understand the power that’s inside.

GOUP: Pokemon!!! Gotta catch ‘em all.

CH: Replace "Pokémon" with "bad guys" and the story might make more sense. After all, Los Angeles police Louis Lozano and Eric Mitchell did indeed travel across the land, searching far and wide. And they were determined to catch 'em all. One suspect in particular: a shady character said to weigh an astonishing one thousand pounds and known for pulverizing its enemies. When it's awake that is. Which Snorlax usually isn't. Snorlax is one of the cutest pocket monsters. And it often takes Pokémon Go users three Pokéballs to catch it. But the officers had all the balls required to repeatedly ignore radio calls about a robbery-in-progress while searching for a Snorlax while playing Pokémon Go, on duty, in 2017. Which is why they were fired. Now, a California appeals court has ruled that their sacking was altogether justified. The court filing includes damning details about the 20 minutes the pair spent pursuing Pokémon goals instead of multiple suspects fleeing a Macy's -- all while a nearby Police Captain picked up the slack. Unfortunately, the officers' dashcam recorded their conversations -- which confirmed that they rejected calls to help, in favour of trying to apprehend Snorlax, and discussing Pokémon. And no one wants employees who just talk a good game.

[Music: Jazz]

Part 3: World's Deepest Squid, Encore: B.C. Horse Rescue

Denver Pond Rescue

CH: For a lot of people, Sunday is a day of rest and reflection. But it was the most stressful day in recent memory for several people in a neighbourhood in Denver, Colorado -- including Dusti Talavera. Ms. Talavera was in her apartment when she saw three children, aged 4 to 11, fall into a frozen pond. She was among those who sprinted to their rescue. Here she is, telling reporters what happened.

SOUNDCLIP

DUSTI TALAVERA: I was just looking out my window and saw a couple of kids just walking on the ice pond. And I just… like a few seconds later, I just saw them fall in. And so I mean, like, instinct was to go outside and help them and stuff like that. And so, I just before I even realized it, I was out there on the middle of the pond, pulling two kids out. And that's when I fell in the pond for the third kid, and I tried to, like, hold her head up. I tried to hold my head up. The pond was really deep, but there was a… there was a young man who threw us a rope, and he pulled us out. It was just kind of like, save the kids, you know? Like they're just children. So I was just worried about them. There was screaming, there's a little bit of screaming. And, I mean, it was kind of chaotic. There was kids running, trying to get help and stuff like that. So it was kind of… it was kind of scary. I tried… I tried to crawl out, but it was too slippery and I just ended up falling back in. And I just… I just kind of put some shoes on and ran out. I just knew that nobody, you know, nobody was really outside. So I mean, I was going to… it was me, you know? I just knew it was me that had to do it.

CH: That was Dusti Talavera, talking about her role in the rescue of three children who fell through the ice on a pond in a neighbourhood just outside Denver, Colorado. Two of the children are home and well, but a six-year-old girl is in serious condition in hospital. She is expected to survive.

[Music: Vocalization]

World's Deepest Squid

Guest: Mike Vecchione

CH: They were looking for cold, hard cash -- but they found something much squishier. Last year, while searching for a shipwreck, an expedition of explorers happened upon something that had never been seen before: a Squid more than 6,000 metres below the surface. That's about a kilometre-and-a-half deeper than any squid had ever been seen before. Zoologist Mike Vecchione of Smithsonian Ocean analyzed the footage of the Big Fin Squid captured by a two-person submersible in the Philippine Trench. We reached him in King George, Virginia.

CO: Mike, I know this was an expedition looking for a shipwreck. So how did you and your colleagues come to realize that you had made a completely different discovery?

MIKE VECCHIONE: Well, fortunately, the expedition included a scientist on board, Alan Jamieson. And he was reviewing the videos from the dives looking for the shipwreck, even the ones that didn't find the shipwreck. And in reviewing the videos for biological information, he saw what looked like a squid. And he knew me from a previous paper that we had worked on together and contacted me about the squid to find out what kind it was.

CO: And so what was that moment like when you realized that you were looking at something that was very deep and no one knew it had been there before?

MV: Well, it was exciting for me because I've been looking for cephalopods from these really ultra-deep environments for quite a long time. And the first really reliable records were the previous project that Alan and I had worked on together, where we saw some Dumbo octopods. But this was the first squid, and that… that indicated that there are other kinds of cephalopods present in these trenches.

CO: So tell us what this… this creature, the Big Fin Squid, what does it look like?

MV: As you might guess from the name, it's got a really big fin compared to the size of its body. But, really, the most remarkable thing about it is, you know, squids have eight arms plus two tentacles, which are modified arms. But in Big Fin Squids, the tentacles look very much like the other arms. And all 10 of these appendages have long spaghetti-like extensions at the tips of them, in the adults. Now, the… the video from that dive did not show these extensions. But they are typical of the… the family, actually.

CO: And this was… we're talking about 6,000… more than 6,000 metres deep, right? And so, was this a squid that just took a wrong turn and ended up someplace where he shouldn't be? [chuckling] Or what does that tell you about what might be down there?

MV: Well, these are the deepest living squids. And the deepest report of one of them before it was around 4,700 metres. So this is much deeper than… than what was known before. But they… they have a really broad depth range, so it's not terribly surprising that they would extend down into this we call it the pelagic environment of the trenches.

CO: So if they're down there, there's food down there, right?

MV: Yeah, it must be. And as you might know, squids are important predators within the ecosystems that they belong in. So there must be quite a bit of food in order to support these squids down there.

CO: Okay. So what does that tell you about the ecosystem at that depth?

MV: Well, before this, we didn't know a whole lot about the swimming animals of these trenches. Because previous studies had focussed on the animals that are on the bottom or animals that might be attracted to bait. So this tells us that in the pelagic environment of the trenches, there's a robust food web, and that squids probably are an important part of it.

CO: Does that make you worry about the kinds of activities that we're starting to do on those sea beds? I mean, we're talking about some exploration for fossil fuels and mining. What does that say about those developments?

MV: Well, to be honest, for these, these ultra-deep environments of the trenches, the biggest human impact that I'm aware of is that they're… they’re a place where trash sort of gathers. It sort of funnels into these areas, including plastic trash. And that's… that's been documented now in several of the trenches. And actually, plastic has been found in the stomachs of some of the animals that live down there. So I worry about the… the impact of that in… in terms of the entire ecosystem, since it's working its way through the food web.

CO: So you think that way down, 6,000 metres below sea level, creatures like the Big Fin Squid, they might be consuming microplastics and getting the plastics… the garbage into their systems?

MV: Yeah, I think they might be consuming animals that consume the microplastics. That would… concentrated in… in their... their bodies. And if other things are down there eating the squids, it would work it even further up the food web.

CO: And what about the other kinds of human activity, like mining?

MV: Well, mining is a big deal for deep-sea biology in general, but most of the mining proposals that I'm aware of are not targeting these… these trench areas, specifically. They're targeting areas where there are abundant minerals. The thing that worries me most about human impact on the trenches is this funnelling of trash, basically, into them. But also, climate change is affecting the deep sea as well. And that signal is spreading throughout the deep sea, and will get down into the trenches, I'm sure.

CO: This expedition was to look for the USS Johnston, which was a ship that went down some 77 years ago. And so… and some of the discoveries there is that there is very little growth. There's very little anything that's redeveloped where that groove is, where they where the ship went down. Does that tell you something about how hard it is for anything to recover if… if the ecosystem is damaged down there?

MV: Yes, things happen very slowly in the deep sea, in general. And the deeper you go, the slower the recovery would be, probably. So the… the fact that when they looked at the... the impact of that ship on the bottom and saw very little indication of recovery since World War Two, that indicates that if… if there is damage to… human-caused damage to the environment down there, it would take a very long time for it to recover.

CO: All right, we'll leave it there. Mike, thank you.

MV: You're welcome. I appreciate your interest.

CH: Mike Vecchione is a zoologist with the Smithsonian Institution. We reached him in King George, Virginia.

[Music: Folk]

Amanda Asay Obit

CH: There's no doubt that Amanda Asay was incredibly talented on the baseball diamond. But today, her coach, teammates, and loved ones are remembering her for more than her athleticism. Ms. Asay died on Friday, after a skiing accident in Nelson, British Columbia. She was 33. She was the longest-serving member of the Canadian women's baseball team program. She helped the team win four World Cup medals from 2006 to 2018. All while earning her PhD in forestry, and playing hockey for the University of British Columbia. Andre Lachance is the general manager of the Canadian women's national baseball team.

SOUNDCLIP

ANDRE LACHANCE: Oh my God. The best teammate. The best team member you can ever imagine. Always smiling. Always ready to play, wanting to compete for Canada, wanting to represent Canada well wherever we were, whether it’s Asia or… or South America, wherever we travel with the team. Super proud of wearing the Maple Leaf and representing our great country. And, you know, like, she… like I said to other people earlier, like, she was raised with… raised with great values, great family. And those values were… were… were shared among our team members and our coaching staff. So she made everyone around her better. There's no doubt about that.

SARAH PENTON: And she was on the team for a long time. Can you just speak to me about just her athletic abilities, too?

AL: Yeah, totally. Like, she… she started… we started the team in 2004, so our program is still very young. And she joined the program in 2005. We were on a trip to Cuba that year. And she's still there today. Like, she was… like, 2018… like, she was… she was our top pitcher in 2019. She was still pitching for us and she was just getting ready to represent Canada again with our team this… this coming summer. So she started as a catcher. She was one of the best. She moved to… you know, to first base. She became after that, like our top pitcher, one of the best in the world as well. So that speaks a lot about her athletic ability. She was not only a good baseball player, a great hockey player as well. So, yeah, multi-sport athlete, multi-position athlete as well, a really powerful athlete. And you can always count on her on challenging times on the baseball diamonds. When when the game was on the line, you can always count on Amanda to perform.

SP: And pretty darn smart too. She earned a PhD, isn't that right?

AL: Exactly.

SP: Yeah.

AL: We had a year… a year or two… in 2016, we had three PhD candidates on our team. And she was… she was one of them. And she earned a PhD forestry, and she was working on that… in that field also. So really smart, always curious, always trying to get an edge. Always trying to understand the opponent, the other team a little bit better, so… so we can win ball games. So, yeah, like what you know with curiosity comes innovation, creativity and also performance. So that describes Amanda very well.

CH: That was the general manager of the Canadian women's national baseball team, Andre Lachance, speaking with Sarah Penton, host of Radio West in Kelowna, BC. Amanda Asay died on Friday. She was 33.

[Music: Uke!!!]

Encore: B.C. Horse Rescue

CH: Fires levelled communities, leaving little more than charred rubble. Deadly winter storms plunged millions into darkness. And floods left previously dry patches of land completely submerged. In 2021, we watched extreme weather and natural disasters wreak havoc around the world. But we also watched people come together to help each other. Last November, following deadly mudslides and floods in British Columbia, we spoke with Henry Chillihitzia -- a machine loader-operator and former bull rider. He used a boat to help rescue dozens of horses trapped in water in the Merritt area -- and shot a video, which sounded like this.

SOUNDCLIP

MAN: You going to go in there with 'em?

MAN#2: Yeah! Going in there with them!

[A man whoops]

MAN: Go, go, go! Go girls, go girls, go girls!

[A man whoops]

CH: We've been re-airing some of your favourite interviews from last year, and Mr. Chillihitzia's story was one of them. So here's an encore presentation of his conversation with Carol, in November.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: Henry, this is radio. And so, even though that was quite dramatic to listen to, can you just describe what we would be seeing in that amazing video that you shot?

HENRY CHILLIHITZIA: What happened was overnight, the horses were all kind of pushed back, right? So what you see there is all hayfield. So overnight, that water from where we were standing on dry land to where the main river was, was probably another 500 to 700 yards away.

CO: Wow! We're just going to say what we're seeing. I'm not seeing a hayfield. I'm seeing a raging river, a flooded. Yeah, like almost a lake of brown water.

HC: Yeah. So underneath that water was actually all fenced off hay fields. And water... the main Coldwater River water rose overnight and probably 10-15 feet high... higher. So then, once the Coldwater River flooded, and it flooded so quick that all the horses got trapped and no one knew.

CO: I can see about 30 horses. What... what were you trying to get the horses to do?

HC: So what they didn't like? There was a dip right there by the gate, and they didn't want to go down that little hill because it gets really deep in that area, like. So if I was standing in there, it would be well over my head. And I'm about 5'10, so we just tried our best to push them through that gate. So that was the easiest route for them to go was right there. We couldn't go anywhere else because it was too fast.

CO: If you weren't able to convince those horses to take that plunge, what would have happened to them?

HC: I'd say within four hours, they all probably would have died. Yeah, just exhausted and cold, yeah.

CO: And how long did it take you to convince them to... to do that?

HC: Probably four hours. It took us five tries. It took us five tries to finally... to get them to actually move. That's all... before, that's all they were doing was just moving in circles because they didn't want to go anywhere, right?

CO: We could hear a lot of energy going into trying to get them to move. Just can you just tell us a bit about how you managed... how you go about convincing a horse to go in water that might be over its head?

HC: Instead of trying to go in right away, we went around them with our boat. Once we got them all turning towards the gate, and then we kind of just went in sideways with our boat, and then once we started pushing the horses that were in the back over, and then that's when the lead... whatever lead horse was upfront had no choice because it pretty much got pushed... pushed downwards, right? And then once the first one started swimming, then the rest just followed. The baby and the mom were right upfront.

CO: Did you think a few times while you were doing that that you weren't going to be successful?

HC: Well, I knew if we didn't do anything, then, yeah, my heart probably would have shattered into a billion pieces. So I did… we did whatever we could. Like, we were all tired. And at one point, yeah, we did say, I don't think these horses are going to move, but I'm not going to give up until at least we keep trying, and we're exhausted. Standing in that rain yesterday, I was soaked from head to toe within five minutes. But they were in the water overnight, right? So I said, well, they stood in water overnight, so can't give up now. We've got to keep trying until we get them in?

CO: What were your emotions when you succeeded in getting them to cross?

HC: Oh, I was... had a lump in my throat the whole time. So, I was... my emotions were pretty high. And I own horses myself, so they're kind of like my kids, right? So, yeah, it was... it was a relief for sure, getting them and getting them to higher ground and dry and getting them some feed. Yeah, and it was overwhelming for sure with all the help and a lot of people on shore just in case a boat broke. Like, our first attempt, the motor broke while we're right in the middle of everything. So... so, yeah, things got tougher and tougher after that because we were soaked from head to toe, right? And I wasn't even warm at all the whole time.

CO: Have you ever had to round up animals in a boat before?

HC: No. [laughing] I can say that's my first time doing that in a boat. Usually, we just have our horses, and then it usually works. But with the water being so high, and got so high quick, and by the minute, it was getting higher and faster. So I bet that water was moving at least 60 kilometres an hour well, we're out in that boat trying to get those horses in.

CO: I understand that horses aren't the only animals you saved yesterday? Also, some cows?

HC: Yes. So before we went over to the horse, we didn't even know the horses were trapped out in the middle as well. So we went over to the neighbour there. They have... I don't know how many head of cattle. But got those ones in. They moved a lot better for sure because it was shallower where they were, and they didn't have to swim. They just walked the whole time. They just didn't want to move.

CO: And had they been out in the water all night too?

HC: Yeah, those cows are out in the water all night because this flood just happened. So when everyone woke up in the morning, they're just like, holy smokes! There's a lake in our hayfield.

CO: How are the horses doing now?

HC: They're doing good now. They're all huddled around that shed, and whatever else. Some were out grazing and stuff like that. They did get some good feed last night. And they seem to be all fine.

CO: And what's it like for you to see your community... to have this happen in Merritt?

HC: Oh yeah, it's just... first, we had the fires, right? There's three major fires surrounding Merritt. And then, just all of a sudden overnight, just boom. I'm sure everyone's just... they're all feeling it because they had to evacuate this city twice, right?

CO: Are you able to get out if you have to? Are you... are you... can you escape if... if it comes to that?

HC: Oh, yes, yes. Because, well, the water is dropping. So eventually, people will start coming back. Just don't know when, right?

CO: Well, Henry, I'm glad you were there for those animals. That was quite the rescue mission.

HC: Thank you.

CO: All right. Thank you.

HC: Yes, it took... took some team work, for sure. So we weren't all going to give up. We needed to get those horses in.

CO: Yeah, well, now you're all high and dry, so that's good.

HC: Yeah. Yeah, [laughing] thank you, God. [both laughing]

CO: Take care, Henry.

HC: Thank you, you too.

CO: Bye.

HC: Bye.

CH: An encore of Carol's conversation with Henry Chillihitzia last November after he helped rescue dozens of animals during flooding in British Columbia. And you can find that story on our webpage at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient]

Calvin Simon Obit

CH: A typical Parliament-Funkadelic song sounds like a party that's almost out of control. And Calvin Simon knew what it was like to be on the verge of losing control. But he found himself, and found religion, before that could happen. Calvin Simon -- a singer and founding member of Parliament-Funkadelic -- died last week. He was 79. In the mid-'60s, he joined a doo-wop group called The Parliaments, led by a kid named George Clinton. They were just getting started when Mr. Simon was drafted, and went to Vietnam. When he returned in 1968, he rejoined the band, which quickly became two funk bands -- Parliament, which leaned toward R&B, and Funkadelic, which leaned toward rock. Both bands were enormously influential. And no matter who else came through the rotating lineups, Calvin Simon was always part of the party. But in the midst of all that partying, he was struggling. On his website, he wrote, "the thing that means the most to me is how I handled the PTSD from my service in the Vietnam War. I was able to keep the genie in the bottle, so to speak, and did not allow the evil thoughts to break through and manifest into actions. Instead, I found my faith and relied on the higher power to see me through."

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January 11, 2022 Episode Transcript

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