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The AIH Transcript For December 15, 2021

[hosts]Carol Off, Chris Howden[/hosts]

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

SAMIRA MOHYEDDIN: Good evening, I'm Samira Mohyeddin, sitting in for Chris Howden, this is As It Happens.

[music: theme]

Prologue

SM: Tonight:

CO: Taken by storm. A worker at a Kentucky candle factory who was trapped in the wreckage after the weekend's tornado says the business should have done more, or anything, to keep its people safe.

CH: Survivors' Quilt. Her brother is one of dozens depicted on a memorial quilt for Black victims of racial violence -- and our guest tells us it's an image that will stay with her forever.

CO: Trail blazer. It's been 50 years since the bestselling video game The Oregon Trail was created -- and while it earned the respect of Grade 8 students, it earned its co-creators very little money.

CH: Bovine intervention. A new bison ranger is brimming with excitement over a project to reintroduce wild bison to a British woodland -- a move he says will help the whole ecosystem.

CO: Conspicuous consumption. If you're on the Berlin subway and you see other passengers eating their tickets, do not worry -- they are edible for anyone who wants to develop a literal taste for travel.

CH: And... home extremely sweet home. A Utah interior designer has turned the exterior of her house into an immaculate imitation of a gingerbread home -- and her neighbours are eating it up.

CH: As It Happens, the Tuesday edition. Radio that values candied conversation.

[music: theme]

Part 1: Ontario Booster Doses, NS Rapid Tests, Brain Surgeons Vs Rocket Scientists

Ontario Booster Doses

Guest: Dr. Andrew Morris

SM: Omicron -- the fast-moving variant -- is pushing governments across Canada into rapid action. Today, Ottawa warned people not to travel abroad unless the trip is essential. And several provinces brought in new measures to try to slow the spread of the new Covid variant. Alberta expanded its vaccine booster program, as well as access to covid rapid tests. Ontario, where cases are rising rapidly, did the same, announcing more access to rapid tests that anyone 18 or older could book their third dose starting on Monday. Here's Premier Doug Ford this afternoon.

SOUNDCLIP

DOUG FORD: I'm issuing a call to arms. Hospitals, public health units, doctors, nurses, dentists, paramedics, businesses, union workers, first responders and most importantly, you. Everyone has a role to play in the next phase of our provincial COVID response. It's all hands on deck. And it starts with booster shots. Nothing matters more than getting these third shots into arms.

SM: Ontario Premier Doug Ford. Dr. Andrew Morris is an infectious diseases specialist. We reached him in Toronto.

CO: Dr. Morris, we just heard Premier Ford issuing a call to arms to people in Ontario. Is that call coming a bit late, in your view?

DR ANDREW MORRIS: Well, it's certainly too late, but I guess there's no better time than starting right now. Hopefully, we'll see some benefit from this.

CO: You've been urging authorities to roll out this third shot, this booster shot, more broadly. You've been doing it for months. Why? What was the warning you were putting out?

DAM: Well, I think we had several pieces of information that told us that we needed to get third doses into arms. The first one was information we gleaned from Israel that taught us about waning immunity and the benefits of getting third doses to restore that immunity. And then, on top of that, we saw waves moving from northern Europe all the way through to Western Europe of aggressive growth in Delta that coincided with that waning immunity. And I think it was fairly obvious that it was only a matter of time before we were going to face a similar wave.

CO: So why do you think no one listened to that call to get boosters?

DAM: I think it was a combination of factors. One was a bit of wishful thinking. We hadn't seen evidence that our vaccine effectiveness had waned. Possibly that was due to our vaccine strategy when we were trying to preserve doses by spreading as the first and second dose. And so there was this hope that perhaps we wouldn't even need a third dose. And I think there's also this ongoing hope that we have that maybe there's something different that we're observing here in Canada or at least parts of Canada that makes us different than what others are experiencing in other countries around the world.

CO: But why do you think that's the case? We're the same species, right? So why wouldn't it apply to us if it happened… it’s already happening elsewhere?

DAM: [chuckling] You know what? I wish I could answer that question. I really don't know. There is, I guess, this inherent hope. Many of us refer to the term “hopium” that people consume, this desire to believe the most hopeful outcomes. And I think there is some benefit to maintaining hope for sure. But failing to prepare for the worst possible outcomes isn't necessarily abandoning hope, but I think there's this sense by many that it does. And I think that's been our fault all along.

CO: But now, we have Omicron is upon us. And are you saying that if people who have had two doses, they won't be immune to it? What level of immunity can you still rely on if you've been double vaccinated?

DAM: Yeah, well, first of all, I think we're learning quite a bit right now. We don't know exactly everything about Omicron because it's so new, right? We only learned about this a few weeks ago. I think what we can feel fairly comfortable in knowing is that if you have received your first two doses of vaccine, you're likely going to be fairly well-protected from severe disease, but you won't be perfectly protected. Of course, you were never really perfectly protected. You were always relatively well-protected. I think what's happened, though, is that whereas you may have been early on upwards of 90 or 95 per cent protected, you're probably down to, you know, as little as 30 per cent protected. And if you get a second dose, that may go up to about 75 per cent. But it's important to recognize that vaccines aren't the only way that you're being protected. It's all the other public health measures that may protect you from becoming infected.

CO: OK, but what our understanding was is that the vaccine wasn't going to prevent us completely from getting sick, but it was going to quite likely prevent us from going to the hospital or dying. And so that was a large part of this effort, right, was to not to see the health care system be overburdened and collapsed. And so is this a crisis in the general population with Omicron, or is it a crisis with the unvaccinated?

DAM: To be honest, I don't think we know. What I think is likely is that the people who are unvaccinated remain at risk. That hasn't changed. What has changed is the numbers that will be involved and the speed of all this. So it's highly likely that most of those people who were not vaccinated, who are interacting in society, they will get infected quite soon. And all of them will get infected over the next several weeks or months. And what we'll see is a very small percentage developing severe disease, but it will be the sheer numbers. So we're talking about numbers that we didn't experience previously. So whereas there were maybe, you know, a few thousand people at peaks becoming infected and a small percentage of them being hospitalized, we can multiply those numbers by 10 or even 100.

CO: But just finally, as far as being able to get the booster shot, especially quickly, as the Premier said immediately to get the booster. He gave a 1-800 number to call. I called the number immediately, and it… it directs you to a website, and the website said there are appointments available in January. So are we likely to see, as we saw in the first round of vaccines, that it's a rather… a shambolic rollout for this booster shot?

DAM: Yeah, you know, I think the government has found themselves in a situation where they're very ill-prepared to respond. I anticipate that there will be many missteps, but hopefully, there will be a lot of correct steps as well. And if we're lucky, we will meet even somewhere close to the target that the Premier offered, and we'll be in good position if that does happen.

CO: If we're lucky.

DAM: Yes, [both chuckle] if we're lucky with a lot of elbow grease.

CO: Is that the optimist in you coming out here finally? [both laugh]

DAM: Yeah, you know, I think you have to laugh a little bit and be a bit optimistic. Otherwise, you know, you're not going to be able to make it through this next mile. I do think we have dark days ahead, but smart and clear thinking without panicking will certainly give us a greater likelihood of success.

CO: And without taking hopium.

DAM: Absolutely.

CO: [chuckling] Dr. Morris is good to talk to you. Thank you.

DAM: Thanks for having me.

SM: Dr. Andrew Morris is an infectious diseases specialist. He was in Toronto.

[Music: Ambient]

NS Rapid Tests

Guest: Åsa Kachan

SM: They're called rapid tests. But until today, the act of getting the tests to people who would really like to use them has been slow. As we just heard, Ontario and Alberta are now making rapid tests more available. But even though Public Services and Procurement Canada says 81 million tests have been delivered across the country, only 15.5 million have been used. But there hasn't been any delay in Nova Scotia. That province has been a rapid-test deployment success story. All this week, any Nova Scotian could walk into a public library and come out with a box of rapid tests -- without even showing their library card. Åsa Kachan is Chief Librarian and CEO for Halifax Public Libraries. We reached her in Halifax.

CO: Åsa, what was it like to see your libraries turned into rapid test delivery centres?

ASA KACHAN: Oh, Carol, it filled my heart. Over the past two years, we have been reinventing our public libraries in Nova Scotia to respond to the demand. To, you know, work arm-in-arm with our public health officials. And that's taken a few different iterations over time. And when they called us two weeks ago and said we've got a strategy to help keep Nova Scotians safe over the holidays, can you help? My colleagues and I in the library world in Nova Scotia, we didn't hesitate.

CO: What does it look like? Just give us a description of the giveaways and what they look like at the branches?

AK: Within our branches and Halifax Public Libraries, we have 14 branches. We hand out tests. They're a box, a small box that has five rapid tests for people to take home. We have those available at our information desks. You know, it takes five minutes for the word to spread in Nova Scotia about what's going on. So people knew very quickly they were available and began, you know, heading to the 80 public libraries across this province to pick up rapid tests. And within Halifax, you know, this week we're handing out 150,000.

CO: Is there a limit to the numbers people can take?

AK: Well, our objective in conversation with public health has been really to spread these tests out as widely as we can. So, we don't want people to stockpile. We're encouraging them to pick up a box of five and to use those over the holidays before they're about to gather with friends or neighbours or after they've been out just to check that they haven't become infected.

CO: What an idea. [laughing brightly] What… what an idea whose time came a long time ago, right?

AK: Well, Nova Scotia has adopted rapid testing as part of the strategy to keep Nova Scotians healthy. And certainly, at the Public Library. We've cooperated with Public Health in many ways. While our branches were closed during periods of closure, some of our branches were turned into rapid testing centres. So in those days, people would come into the building, they'd do a rapid test, have their results of their tests available to them within 15 minutes. And… and that's been a really important part of… of keeping Nova Scotians healthy over the last two years.

CO: And Nova Scotia has been the envy of this country as far as controlling the spread of the disease. I mean, so what role do you think the testing has played in the fact that your numbers are so low?

AK: Well, the testing and making tests available to people and encouraging people to use that as part of their personal commitment to caring for others. That's been so much of the conversation in Nova Scotia. You know, we just… we feel proud on the part of the libraries to be working with Public Health in reaching communities. When we think about a strategy like this. You know, one of the great challenges the provincial public health office may have is getting, you know, it's a great strategy. But now how do we get the tests in the hands of people in small communities like Ingonish, Yarmouth, Digby, you know, Nova Scotia is well spread out. And… and I love the fact that Public Health turned to Public Libraries because, of course, we are those anchor tenants in our communities and in our neighbourhoods. And the community knows where we are. Our doors are open. We welcome everyone. It doesn't cost anything. There are some assumptions and acknowledgements that people have around the public library that make us just a natural vehicle for getting these into the hands of people.

CO: What difference will it make if people have these tests? How might it change their ability or their willingness to take part in Christmas festivities?

AK: Well, I believe that we all want to care for one another. I believe that that's a part of how... how Canadians have by and large responded to COVID. So this, to me, feels like another tool in the toolbox. If I'm meeting with a neighbour or if I'm concerned because I've been out doing my… my shopping and want to make sure that, you know, I haven't been exposed, this is… this is a way of caring for one another.

CO: And what are those… maybe some other stories of how people receive the kits?

AK: Well, generally, they're there on task when they come in. So they know what to do, they heard about it, they're grabbing it, and they're hanging on tight to what they get. So, people have been happy. You know, we've had.,.. we've had… we've run out in some of our locations, and there have been momentary frustrations, but I would say, overall, our library staff have been showered with… with love and gratitude from our communities. And, you know, we're just so grateful to be available to help them. It's what we come to work to do every day.

CO: Will you get more? Do you know?

AK: We are hoping, yeah. We have a little bit of a second wave to distribute out in the next couple of days within our branches here in Halifax. And we've got…. we're anticipating another shipment next week. So as long as they are coming, we are here… we are here to get them in the hands of our community.

CO: Well, there are tens of millions of these tests in other warehouses across the country. [cuckling] If you just put out the word that they're going to end up in someone's hands, and they go to Nova Scotia.

AK: Libraries have a… have distribution networks already. We already have our vans moving books between branches. We had a great team. We got notice of this not very long ago. And I watched my team roll up their sleeves and, you know, get these boxes out to branches. And the branches handed them out to their communities. So it's a network that exists. And, you know, it's just great to use it for this purpose too.

CO: Now, Nova Scotia is the envy of the country for how it has responded to COVID and treated it. So, does that give you… [laughing] does that make you happy and at all knowing how green we are with envy?

AK: Well, I do love Nova Scotia. I have to say. I'm so proud that Public Health, you know, connects with libraries and allows us to be part of providing care to our communities in different ways.

CO: Well, prepare yourself for another wave of people wanting to move to Nova Scotia as they keep wanting to during this pandemic. [both chuckle] Åsa, it's great to talk to you. Appreciate it. Thank you.

AK: Thank you, Carol.

CO: Bye-bye.

AK: Bye.

SM: Åsa Kachan is Chief Librarian and CEO for Halifax Public Libraries.

[Music: Vocalization]

Brain Surgeons Vs Rocket Scientists

Guest: Inga Usher

SM: When you want to tell someone that a task is simple - what phrase do you reach for? Are you a "It's not rocket science" person - or a "it's not brain surgery" type? And does it make a difference? In fact, which does take more brainpower: neurosurgery or aerospace engineering? A research team in England set out to answer that burning question and more in a new study published yesterday in The British Medical Journal, also known as The BMJ. We reached lead researcher and Neuroscience PHD candidate Inga Usher in London, England.

CO: What have you concluded? Brain surgeons are smarter than rocket scientists?

INGA USHER: It's a surprising conclusion. And unfortunately, does not support the reason we wanted to do the study. Of course, as neurosurgeons, we were hoping to have some evidence on which to base our smugness [CO laughs] in the company of the other party. [chuckling] But in the first analysis, when we pitted the two groups against each other, we found brain surgeons are better at semantic problem-solving, so to do with rare word analogies or etymology type problems. Whereas the rocket scientists came out on top with mental rotation and manipulation. And then actually overall, there was a broad range of cognitive abilities in all three groups. So 18,000 of the general population and the rocket scientists and the brain surgeons all displayed a range. And the only significant differences were between the brain surgeons compared to the general population, which is that brain surgeons are a bit faster at problem-solving but actually a bit slower at word problem-solving. So, pretty equally balanced in the end. [CO chuckles]

CO: So… but in the end, neither group is significantly smarter or more intelligent than the general population, right?

IU: Yeah, I think exactly. So basically, what we showed was that if you look at the individual data points, there is a range of cognitive abilities. And, of course, we tested quite a few different things, which is what we wanted to do. And there wasn't a single score as there is some… out of some IQ test. We wanted really to see the range of abilities. But yeah, overall, not really a difference.

CO: You didn't see that rocket scientists are better at mental manipulations. What does that mean?

IU: Yes. I think that's quite reassuring as a sort of sanity check. I think that makes quite a lot of sense. I would reason given that in some engineering courses, my understanding is that this is taught. So it's a skill that's actively nurtured by training, but it's also something that perhaps people have a flair for. If you go into engineering, it's probably quite a useful skill. And similarly, for the brain surgeons, the semantic sort of word solving tests really, I think, speak to what we do at medical school. Learning lots of really long Latin and Greek words and recalling these words is pretty central to learning medicine. It's basically saying things to a patient are more complicated, but you're really saying something simple, but you're saying in Greek or Latin.

CO: All right, so do not play Scrabble with a neuroscientist then?

IU: [laughing] Yeah, it's the worst! [both laughing]

CO: But you're a… you're a neuroscientist, right? Don't you have a dog in this fight?

IU: [chuckle] So, I… full disclosure, I'm not. I'm an aspiring neurosurgeon. I'm making my applications at the moment. And, you know, who knows? Maybe with… with the media furor that's come from this and saying that neurosurgeons aren't smarter, perhaps I won't get my place in neurosurgery. [both chuckle] But yes, we are a little biased. And also, out of the team that ran the study. While we had collaborators that were rocket scientists, none of us are rocket scientists, so that was a deficiency in the study team, I guess you could say. But yeah, we were hoping to come out on top. And we weren't able to demonstrate that.

CO: But now, do people… brain surgeons, do they say, well, do they use the phrase, well, it's not exactly brain surgery? [IU chuckles] I mean… or do… do they… do rocket science to say, well, it's not exactly rocket science, right? I mean, do they actually throw those things around? Do you think?

IU: This was the hilarious thing. When we wrote to the Society of British Neurological Surgeons to which we are affiliated, it was amazing the number of responses that came back from brain surgeons who said I have literally stood in brain surgery and said, at least it's not rocket science, you know? [both laugh] And I think one of my… one of the supervisors at the hospital I'm affiliated with, he has said that. And there was someone who used to be… was training to be an astrophysicist or rocket scientist, and was then training to be a brain surgeon and had had experience of both fields. So I guess they would really be the group to study.

CO: Did you conclude, though, that the neuroscientist or the rocket scientist that they have particular skills because they were drawn to that profession because their brains work that way? Or did brain… did their minds develop that way because of the profession?

IU: I think this is a really interesting question. And one that we… we weren't able to answer with what we've done in the study. But I think that that's particularly interesting. Are we drawn to something because we show some flair or affinity for it? Or are we trained to be that way? I suspect, as with most of these nature-nurture things, it's probably a combination of both, rather boringly.

CO: Now, you obviously had some fun…. you had some fun with this study, but anything serious we should take away from it?

IU: Yes, I think… I think the conclusion that we've drawn and looking into the research around this area is that I… I guess I hope one of the messages is that science is for everyone and that these stereotypes should be questioned. Obviously, we often say this in jest, but these… these phrases do link to quite durable stereotypes, and we know that kids who are aged 12 or 13, lots of kids are interested in STEM -- in science, technology, engineering and mathematics. And actually, the number of those who go on to pursue it. You know, there's a huge attrition rate. And disproportionately, this affects non-white groups, and this disproportionately affects women. So I think it's important to question these stereotypes for that purpose, to try and encourage some of these, you know, disadvantaged groups to... to continue considering a career in these specialties. The… the problems we face are complex, and we're going to need diverse workforces to deal with them.

CO: You, though, in your paper, you suggest that other phrases like it's a walk in the park or it's a piece of cake. I mean, so does… isn't that stereotyping dog walkers and cake makers?

IU: I mean, potentially, that might be the beginning of yet another study. I think we could go a long way with this.

CO: I think you could actually say, here's my suggestion say, well, it's not exactly journalism. It's not exactly radio interviewing.

IU: [chuckling] I agree, and having done a couple of these, you know, it is something. [CO chuckles] Yeah, we did… we had a psychiatrist review the paper, and he said, surely, you know, you would say it's not psychiatry? [laughing] Maybe we could have certain months of the year where we appreciate different professions with these phrases.

CO: Well, we'll put it to our listeners. I'm sure they will have some opinions, and it's great to talk to you. Thank you.

IU: Thank you so much, Carol. It's been a pleasure.

CO: Bye.

IU: Cheers.

SM: Inga Usher is the lead researcher of It's not rocket science, and It's not brain surgery It's a walk in the park: a prospective comparative study, published this week in The British Medical Journal. We reached her in London, England. Now, you can find more on this story on our webpage at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Folk]

Snake In Christmas Tree

SM: If you decorate a Christmas tree every year, you may at some point have found a mystery ornament among the branches. It's alarming, when you can't remember where it came from. And much more alarming when it's alive.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: grunt’s]

MAN: What a beauty! Oh, it’s a male with a black back and a bright yellow-green tummy.

MAN #2: Wow stunning!

MAN: And this one’s got fangs just behind the eyes. Many people believe that the boomslang have to bite you in a small area because they can’t open their mouth big, but these one’s open their mouths like 170 degrees, and can bite you full on your chest.

SM: That's the sound of a highly venomous snake called a "boomslang", being removed from Rob and Marcela Wild's Christmas tree in Robertson, South Africa the other day. The family noticed something odd shortly after they finished decorating. Mr. Wild told CNN, quote, "The cats were peering into the tree and my wife said 'there's probably a mouse in there somewhere.'" Well, that would have been fun. Unfortunately, it wasn't a mouse -- it was one of the deadliest snakes in Sub-Saharan Africa. The family quickly reached out to a professional snake catcher, who advised them to stay away from the tree, but to "keep their eyes on the snake" until his arrival. Good advice! If unnecessary. They kept their eyes on it over the nearly two hours it took him to arrive. And they kept their eyes on it when the snake catcher removed it with his snake tongs. He later said, "A scary moment turned into an exciting moment for the children." Which, if that's true, suggests the Wild children may come to prefer all their Christmas presents with a boa on top.

[Music: Indie Rock]

Part 2: Dead Giraffes Photo, Man Eats At Chinese Restaurants

Dead Giraffes Photo

Guest: Ed Ram

SM: An image of a one small moment can often speak volumes about a larger problem. Ed Ram is a photojournalist based in Kenya who tells stories about conflict and humanitarian crises. And an image he took of several giraffes captured one aspect of the suffering caused by the ongoing drought there. The group of animals are dead, lying on the parched ground. We reached Mr. Ram in Nairobi.

CO: Ed, can you just, first of all, describe what we can see in this photo?

ED RAM: Yeah, sure. So the photo shows six giraffes which are dead in a town called Eyrib - in Wajir, which is in the northeast of Kenya and borders Somalia. The giraffes, they’re kind of laid down in sort of a constellation together, in sort of a kind of unnatural poses. And it's an image where you can see that eye quite far down the line in times of dehydration.

CO: Dehydration. Yeah, they're quite… they're emaciated, aren't they? How did you come to take the photo?

ER: So I was up in the region doing some reporting about the ongoing drought that's happening. I was going from town to town and in [a] wildlife conservancy and meeting people who had been impacted by the drought. And… and I knew that 10, actually, giraffes had got stuck in the reservoir, which is about 400 metres from where you see them in the picture. And seven of them got stuck on the same day. And these six were taken from the reservoir where they died and put in this location because the drought's been so severe. They were trying to get water from the reservoir, which is meant for the people in the town. They got stuck in the mud and died. And they were stuck in the mud and got taken to this location to prevent the water getting contaminated.

CO: Well, do you have a sense as to just what happened to them? They arrived… they're here because they were brought to this location where you took the picture. But they… how close did they get to being able to get a drink of water, do you think?

ER: I'm not completely sure, but I think I've seen some images of where they were when they died. And I think they're probably a matter of a matter of metres away from the remaining water, which is now… which is now gone in the reservoir.

CO: But… so, they got stuck in the in the mud before they could get someplace where they could get a drink?

ER: Yes. Because the giraffes are so weak. There's no water in their natural habitats, and they hadn't had enough food.

CO: And so you're talking about this particular area that it borders… there's Somalia, Ethiopia, this part of… of Kenya that's been experiencing just a horrific drought, right? So what… what's happening to the people who live in that area?

ER: We're actually at end of a… supposed to be the end of a rainy season here in Kenya, which normally starts in September. Some places have received a very small amount of rain, and some places have received no rain at all. And the people there are in a really serious condition. Seventy per cent of the livestock have died. When you approach many of the villages in the region, there’s dead cows that line the sand tracks as you get… you get to the village. And they’re in various states of decomposition. And when we were there, and I was reporting there, you could see cows being dragged out of the village. And the cows that were remaining were very emaciated. And the livestock for people is incredibly important because people use their animals for food and sustenance, but they also use them for trade. So people sell their livestock and use the money to pay for children's… their children's education. Children are dropping out of school. People have sent their kids to university, and they’re no longer able to go to university and pay for that. So, the local business are closing down. One town I went to, all of the small businesses were shut. Seventy per cent of the population is left.

CO: And so, just to go back to your photograph of the giraffes, which is… it’s emblematic of all the other things that you're talking about. It's an incredibly tragic picture. And so what are we hearing about the possibility of rain? Is this going to be the rainy season, basically, that… that doesn't arrive?

ER: Yeah. I mean, the rainy season has come to an end. I spoke to the governor of Wajir yesterday on the phone, and he… he said it would be a miracle if areas he’s worried about got more rain. We're again entering the dry season now, so it’s going to be dry until… until March.

CO: It's incredibly sad, all of it, for the animals and for the people and for the region. But I thank you for taking the picture and bringing it to our attention. Thank you.

ER: Thanks so much, and thanks for speaking to me so much.

CO: Bye-bye.

SM: Ed Ram is a photojournalist in Kenya. We reached him in Nairobi. You can learn more and see his photos on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient]

Too Many Bulldozers Guy

SM: Do you ever worry you might have too many bulldozers? It's not a problem many of us face - but for one Albertan farmer, collecting the dozens of the big machines is his passion. So when Dennis Pregoda of Rimbey decided it was time to scale back, he knew just who would give them a good home: his old pal Albert Jensen from Drumheller - who has an even bigger collection. Mr. Pregoda explained how his 'dozer collection began.

SOUNDCLIP

DENNIS PREGODA: The first one I ever bought was a TD24C, and we still own it.

DOUG DIRKS: [chuckling] And where did you go from there as far as your collection is concerned?

DP: Well, then I started building the leases, and the farmer would say, I've got one in the shed. I said, what are you going to do with it? Well, he said, I'm going to sell it for scrap. I said, does it run? Oh yeah. He said it runs. He said, I drove it in there three years ago. [both chuckle] That kind of started it. And then I’d find more, and the guys would tell me the same thing, oh, they’re going for scrap. And I’d hate to see him them go for scrap.

DD: So how many do you… how many did you wind up with in your collection?

DP: Well, I think I've got about 50, but I've got about 30.

DD: Right.

DP: I sold Albert, I think, eight or nine of them, and I still got, I think, 20 left. Like the wife said, I've got to be 300 years old to get them all running. [DD chuckles] So I don't think I'll make it.

DD: Well, with a little luck, maybe you will. So Albert… Albert, you bought some of Dennis's collection. What did you pick up from Dennis?

ALBERT JENSEN: Five crawlers. We bought TD24 from Dennis before.

DD: And Dennis, what was it like for you to... to part with that equipment?

DP: It was hard. And this is why I kind of picked on Albert. Him and I have been good friends for years now.

DD: RIght.

DP: And I know I've been down to his place, and he has everything inside, where mine were… the ones that I sold, most of them were sitting in the sheds.

DD: And Albert, do you feel a little extra pressure to look after, you know, these machines that Dennis gave up that… that he was so attached to?

AJ: Oh, for sure. Like the last five we got are in… in our shop right now, getting serviced and running.

DD: Did you ever think of donating them to a museum or establishing a museum because you have so many of them yourself?

AJ: No, they'll stay here. And I guess we kind of do have three buildings full of them. So we have a museum, but it's not… it's not open or whatever.

DD: Right.

AJ: Anybody's kind of welcome to come.

SM: Bulldozer collectors Albert Jensen of Drumheller, Alberta, and Dennis Pregoda of nearby Rimbey speaking with Doug Dirks on CBC's The Homestretch.

[Music: Ambient]

Man Eats At Chinese Restaurants

Guest: David R. Chan

SM: David R. Chan has eaten chow mein in Clarksdale, Mississippi. Dim Sum in San Francisco. And some unfortunate fried rice in Fargo, North Dakota. Mr. Chan is a retired tax lawyer from Los Angeles. And for the past four decades, he has made it his mission to go to every Chinese restaurant he can. Overall, he's eaten at nearly 8,000 -- from the southern US to Canada to Asia. And he documents it all on his Instagram, blog and Twitter -- where he has thousands of followers. We reached Mr. Chan in LA.

CO: David, did you ever think that thousands of people would be paying attention to what you have for lunch on any given day?

DAVID R. CHAN: Never in my wildest dreams, particularly since I never considered myself a foodie. And for the longest time, we ate very little Chinese food. So all this is kind of baffling to me. [CO chuckles] And even though I did go through many years of going to all these Chinese restaurants, I really didn't think anybody would care about it. I was just doing this anonymously. This, you know, basically in a way, a search for identity, but also being a, you know, a collector of things that, you know, once I started rolling, I decided, well, you know? Let me see if I can try all the good Chinese restaurants as they open up.

CO: Right. So you travelled to so many different places across your country. I know you've been in Canada. You've been in China. Forty-five years you've been doing this. I know this is probably impossible to figure out, but what were your favourites? Can you give us some highlights?

DRC: Well, actually, the highlights were in Hong Kong. And really, when you think about it’s no surprise because that's, you know, one of the top culinary centres of the world, particularly eating at the… the Chinese restaurant in the Four Seasons Hotel in Hong Kong, which I understand was the first three-star Michelin rated restaurant ever.

CO: What about in Canada? Any experiences here?

DRC: Yes, I’ve been to Vancouver several times. I've been to Toronto three times. And for a period, I would say from the late 1980s until maybe 10 years ago, Vancouver’s Chinese food, or actually primarily in Richmond, was so far ahead of anything else in the United States that people… Chinese in the United States who, you know, took their Chinese food seriously, all they talked about was going to Vancouver to eat. You know, back then being my friends, we just talked about, you know? You know, when you're going the next time to Vancouver, you know, what's… what's the latest great restaurant there? But Cantonese food in Vancouver is probably still better than at any place in the United States.

CO: Yeah, there were for so many years the Chinese food in so many places was so bad, right? And I know you had a particularly bad experience in Fargo, North Dakota.

DRC: Um-hmm. Yes, that was a long time ago. I'm sure the Chinese food there is much better now. But the one thing about Chinese food is that the ingredients are important. And what I discovered later, and I’m sure this was happening in Fargo, was that the Chinese restaurant would serve food out of canned Chinese food. The United States, La Choi and Chongqing. So we were just eating stuff, you know, it was like going to a restaurant and getting Campbell’s soup. [CO laughs] You get that. And then, any dish that they did prepare, like Fargo had fried rice, which was basically just steamed rice with soy sauce poured on it.

CO: So you didn't grow up eating Chinese food. You were born in United States, you were raised and you came to it late. What is it? What brought you to start researching and… and getting into Chinese cuisine in the United States?

DRC: Well, it's the confluence of two different things. I was in college in my senior year and the… the ethnic pride, ethnic awareness movement sweeping the colleges. And the school I was at, UCLA, offered a class on Asian-American history. And I was totally fascinated by the fact that, you know, Chinese people in the United States had their own history. And it was something that really stuck with me. At the same time, that's when the immigration laws changed. Chinese were once again permitted to migrate to the United States after, you know, 70 years. And the new migrants brought an entirely different brand of Chinese food to the United States. And where the Chinese food I grew up with was pretty terrible, I must say. [CO chuckles] The old saying throw Chinese food under the bus, that's probably true because it wasn't that good. And you had changing Chinese food by growing awareness of being Chinese-American. And I sort of traveled around the country and I thought, gee, wouldn't be great when I’m travelling, why don't I drop by Chinese restaurant? See what it’s like being Chinese in Memphis or something like that? And, at the same time, back here in L.A., in San Francisco and New York, we had all this great new Chinese food being introduced. I said, hey, this is good stuff, you know? You know, it's part of my interest in things Chinese-American. I just started to eat more and more at these Chinese restaurants.

CO: And so, 8,000 Chinese restaurants later, [[chuckling] you now have thousands of people wanting to know where to go to eat?

DRC: Yeah, I never dreamed anything like that would happen.

CO: Now, who does the cooking in your house?

DRC: My wife.

CO: Uh-huh.

DRC: As a matter of fact, she’s very skeptical of the attention I’m getting. Because my wife was born in China. She migrated to the United States when she was five years old. And she learned how to cook from her mother. Meanwhile, my mom was American born. She knew very little about Chinese cuisine. And whereas my wife is a very skilled Chinese cook. So, to think that people are asking me for advice about Chinese food she finds, let's say, amusing.

CO: [laughing] All right. Well, David, I will leave you with this and thank you so much for speaking with us, all right?

DRC: OK. Thank you very much.

CO: Take care bye-bye.

DRC: Bye.

SM: David R. Chan has spent the last 45 years travelling to nearly 8,000 Chinese food restaurants. We reached him in Los Angeles. That interview reminded us of another about a Chinese restaurant. Specifically about the owner’s honest reviews -- of his own menu. He was so honest that he wrote that his orange beef is "not that good." Feygang Fei, the owner of Aunt Dai, in Montreal, and he spoke with Carol in January about why honesty is his only policy.

SOUNDCLIP

FF: Because I don't want to get people disappointed, like a lot of people want to say "we're the best" -- we are simply not the best. That's a fact, it that we just try to be better every day. And that's how I see it.

CO: That's so refreshing.

CO: [Chuckles] Okay so the descriptions, just so people know what you've written about your food, you write about your satay sauce beef "According to a lot of customers, this one is very popular. I haven't had a chance to taste it yet. Looks like I should spend more time eating in my own restaurant." And you've said about your sweet and spicy pork "Since I have such high expectations for this dish, I am not a huge fan of our version, to be honest."

FF: Yes, both of them are very true. [Laughter] It's very true. When the restaurant started, I had a full-time I.T. job, so that's a reality. I did not spend enough time in the restaurant. So some dishes, I even did not have a chance to try it myself. And the second one, the sweet spicy pork strips, it's super super popular. Like when I was in college, I kind of just loved it. It's amazing. And when I met my wife in the college, I had a lot of them and it's amazing. So I always like that version and could not find it anywhere. And unfortunately, our chefs do not cook it that way. So I cannot offer too much, to be honest. [Chuckles]

SM: From January, that was Feygang Fei, the owner of Aunt Dai in Montreal, speaking with Carol.

[Music: Folk]

Part 3: Encore Texas Power, Plastic Eating Bacteria

Bison Reintroduction

SM: To hear Donovan Wright talk about bisons is to hear passion. Passion for the massive animals. About their near extinction. And about the power of nature to heal itself. We heard from Mr. Wright on the program last night about how he is preparing for the return of the first wild herd of bison to the U.K. in thousands of years. Apart from the benefits to conservation, bisons hold a special significance for Indigenous communities here in Canada as well. This week, the Cote First Nation in Saskatchewan released 24 bison back onto their territory after a 150-year absence. The community held a ceremony to commemorate the historic event.

SOUNDCLIP

[SOUND: A ceremonial drum and chant]

SM: Chief George Cote says the First Nation community is setting up a breeding program, and hopes that once the herd is large enough, the community can donate bison to other First Nations.

SOUNDCLIP

GEORGE COTE: It was over four years we were… we've been working on this. And it finally came to reality where the buffalo finally returned to our community after 150 years of being non-existent in our land. So it was a very exciting time for our community. It was our historic event, you know? And we were very happy to have the buffalo back in Cote First Nation. Well, the buffalo used to be our source of sustenance. It provided food. It provided shelter. You know, it provided the spiritual well-being of our… of our… of ourselves. You know, the kinds of buffalo are very resilient, you know? They can survive in the harshest winters. And all these years, their ancestors that lived on the prairies, you know, they followed the buffalo because it was their food source. As they got deleted in numbers, you know, it kind of took away the sustenance that the First Nations people or the Anishinabe people needed. You know, it kind of broke their spirit as well, you know? Because, you know, if something is going to go into extinction that you always relied on, you know, it also jeopardizes your Nation as well. You know, just being around them, you know, you feel a sense of security. You know that the Creator provided for us. You know, and the children, which are our future, you know, we want to ensure that we have something in place for them that they can go on. You know, since we had them out there also with the elders and leadership and we just wanted to share with them that we are looking… we are looking after their future.

SM: Chief George Cote on CBC Radio in Saskatchewan today, talking about why the return of bison is so important to his community.

[Music: Folk]

Encore Texas Power

SM: It can feel impossible to find consensus these days. On anything. But if there's one thing that could bring us together, it might be a hatred of high home energy bills. That became clear this year, when hundreds of you reached out to share your thoughts on our interview with Scott Willoughby. In fact, Carol's conversation with Mr Willoughby was one of the most popular this year -- the ones that you listened to, read, and shared the most. Back in February, the Dallas-area army veteran thought he was one of the lucky ones -- when a deadly winter storm hit Texas. While others lost power, his stayed on. But then his luck changed. Mr Willoughby was charged the equivalent of more than 20,000 dollars Canadian, by his variable rate electricity company. So as we look back at 2021, here's an encore.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: Scott, first of all, give us the grand total. How much have you paid for electricity over the last week?

SCOTT WILLOUGHBY: 16,847.35. When you say it real fast it doesn't sound too bad.

CO: But I mean, does this automatically go on your credit card? Is it a bill that you can refuse to pay or anything like that?

SW: No. The way it works is you set the amount that you want it to what they call refresh. But I had it set at 200 dollars. So every time my electricity usage got -- my account got below 25 dollars, they would automatically charge my credit card another 200 dollars. On the 12th of February, they recharged it for 200 dollars, and I didn't think much about it. The next day they did it three times. The next day they did five times. The next day they did it 15 times. So every time they did it, I get a notification from the bank saying, "Hey, your card has been charged another 200 dollars." And I'm thinking, "Oh my God, this could be 30,000 if this goes on another 10 days."

CO: It's something that most of us don't have because we don't have what you have in Texas, this market driven, unregulated system, this energy market that allows this to happen. When it's good, it's very good, right? You get cheap rates. Obviously, when it's bad, it's really bad.

SW: When it's good, it's okay. You might save 100 dollars a month. Nobody in their right mind would ever sign up to save two or three cents a kilowatt. No one would think they would charged 900 a kilowatt in something like this. There was no disclaimers. There was no warnings. There was only, switch your electricity and we will save you 100 dollars a month. Nobody that I know of anyway would gamble to save 100 dollars a month when you could have 17,000 over.

CO: What does it mean to you to have that 16,800 dollar electric bill?

SW: Oh, it's devastating. It is devastating to me. But fortunately I had 17,000 dollars in the bank that they could take out. What about the 29,000 other Griddy customers and the 200,000-300,000 Reliant Energy customers that had the same thing happen to them -- and I think the average bill for the Texas market for unregulated or the non-fixed rate customers was about 7,500 dollars for those ten days. Most people don't have 7,500 dollars.

CO: When you say Griddy, there are just hundreds of these little retailers in your state, right. And they provide wholesale prices, which they say can quickly change based on supply and demand. But didn't Griddy actually send a message to its customers that they should actually change their company in the middle of this? They said that this is going to happen.

SW: Absolutely. And once it started, they sent an email, actually three or four emails and three or four texts, saying you need to find another company. And they even provided some links to some other companies that were fixed rate. The problem is, is that those companies were having to pay a lot higher for their electricity that they were buying to provide to their customers. So they didn't want new customers and they put 7 to 10 day waiting periods on switching. So when Griddy says, "Hey, you need to find a new provider," then I immediately went and put in a request to switch. I started at TXU because they said 1 to 7 days. And once I got a confirmation that we're going to switch my account, the effective date was going to be the 21st. And I'm thinking, that's 7-8 days from now. So I went back out and looked again and I found Champion and they got me in five days. So I did change, but it took me 5 to 4 more days. And by then I paid 16,847 dollars.

CO: Now you were one of the lucky ones to actually have electricity when others were losing it. But were you tempted at all to maybe shut down your electricity yourself, to turn off your own lights?

SW: Well we did in that, we turned off the furnaces. We unplugged everything. It was plugged into the walls, we kept one TV on and a coffee pot, and that was about it. We used a little golf cart type propane heaters and flashlight.

CO: I mean, do you think that this is maybe a system that has to be rethought? I mean, Texas has a unique energy system, energy market. Do you think that has to be revisited?

SW: Absolutely. And I think the legislature is looking at it right now. They convened some type of a panel on Friday -- Governor Abbott did. And they're looking at the whole market. But at the very least, there needs to be some type of a warning, some type of a waiver that you signed that said, 'Hey, you know, I understand the risk and I'm willing to accept the risk.' But like I said, I can't imagine anybody that would choose to potentially save 100 dollars a month and get hit with this kind of a bill. I know I wouldn't have. If I had any inkling whatsoever that it could have ever been this, I wouldn't have done it.

CO: Well, some of your consumer organisations are saying that it shouldn't even be allowed, that there should be a contract that could allow for those prices to happen to anyone, that this is just something that has to be regulated.

SW: I agree.

CO: And about these skyrocketing energy bills, Governor Abbott said that he wants to make sure that people don't get stuck with them. Will there be any way to get compensated?

SW: I certainly hope so. I don't know the answer to that, but I'm certainly hopeful that that's the end result of that statement.

CO: We'll leave it there. Scott it's good to talk to you. Thank you.

SW: Thanks Carol. I appreciate it.

SM: Carol's conversation with Scott Willoughby in Royse City, Texas from February -- after a massive winter storm left him with a massive electricity bill. Griddy was the power company. It filed for bankruptcy in March. And after the state sued Griddy, it agreed to forgive outstanding bills from the storm. But today, when we reached out to Mr. Willoughby, he told us he had already paid his bill, so he wasn't affected by the settlement and he does not plan to pursue the matter in bankruptcy court. In the coming days, listen for more encores of our most popular interviews.

[Music: Ambient]

Goyce Kakegamic Obit

SM: He was a prominent artist, educator, and leader from Sandy Lake First Nation in northwestern Ontario. And yesterday, crowds gathered yesterday in Thunder Bay, Ontario, to honour the life of Goyce Kakegamic, who died earlier this month. His family was joined by many friends, admirers and other community leaders who worked alongside Goyce Kakegamic throughout his 73 years of life. Thunder Bay Mayor, and former MP, Ken Boshcoff, remembered Mr. Kakegamic for his role in bringing the Northern Ontario School of Medicine to life.

SOUNDCLIP

KEN BOSHCOFF: My name is Ken Boshcoff. I've been a friend of Goyce for several decades and have known him in many roles. We both had broad reach because Goyce was also connected across the province within Indigenous organizations. So his willingness to come forward in a leadership way to speak for a fully equal, dual medical school. There was one particular time watching Goyce speak to the need for the municipalities and the First Nation organizations to stand together to send the message to the province. And I remember looking up at the dais and seeing him there and then going, man, he's just bringing people together. The province isn't going to be able to resist this. And more importantly, he brought Indigenous and municipal people together in a way that is singular in the importance and history of Ontario. I also had the privilege of serving with him on the med school board. And he was intrinsic in ensuring that the med school did the outreach that was really necessary so that the students were going to get a firsthand education. And for us to expand our capacity for four doctors in the North who will stay here. Really, Goyce’s fingerprints are all over that. So those are the kinds of things that leaders do.

[Music: A folk song]

SM: Thunder Bay Mayor Ken Boshcoff at the funeral of Goyce Kakegamic in Thunder Bay, in northwestern Ontario. He was speaking to CBC’s Olivia Levesque.

[Music: Industrial]

House Of Commons Holiday Break Reading

SM: You know the House of Commons is getting ready for the holiday break when MPs start swapping their cat calls and chirps for rhyming couplets. It's traditional for an MP at the end to the parliamentary year to poke a little fun by way of a poem that borrows, small 'L', liberally from Clement Clarke Moore's classic poem A Visit from St. Nicholas. That's the one that begins, "'Twas the night before Christmas," except when it's been adapted by the Liberal MP Anthony Housefather.

SOUNDCLIP

ANTHONY HOUSEFATHER: Twas the last sitting week before Christmas, and because of Omicron and playing to a half empty house. So instead of hearing riotous laughter, I'm afraid it may be quiet as a mouse. We just had an election. Spending in effort galore. Yet, when it ended, the House of Commons was the same as before. [laughing and clapping] Nobody got what they wanted. For the Libs, hopes of a majority dashed. And for the opposition, its chances of forming a government trashed. [more laughter] Each party wondering just what to change in order to ensure that its dreams come into range. The Conservative caucus with its leader, true blue, asked to meet Santa in person to hear what he thought they should do. Unfortunately, the meeting was refused due to one complication: for in person meetings, Santa requires proof of vaccination.

[Sound: Laughing and clapping]

AF: I'm a very old man, said Saint Nick. And COVID, I fear, after all, I was already 500 when Shakespeare wrote King Lear. But by email to the leader, Mr. Claus made three points. The far right of your caucus just do not coddle. Outhouse videos are nothing but twaddle. And please don't try to be a mental health model. For the Bloc… for the Bloc, Santa’s advice was very clear. If the party ever finds itself in dire straits, speak to the network consortium and demand more English debates. The Greens… the Greens tried to reach Santa, but they completely failed as the ship carrying their leader headed north, their entire caucus membership bailed. For the PM, Chris Cringle gave this sage counsel. Please find someone to manage your travel, both location and date, or your government can unravel. And finally, the NDP, who did not need centrist advice, why try to form a government when 25 seats would suffice?

AF: [Speaking French]

SM: That was Liberal MP Anthony Housefather in the House of Commons this afternoon.

[Music: Folk]

Plastic Eating Bacteria

Guest: Aleksej Zelezniak

SM: Plastic pollution is a huge problem. And Aleksej Zelezniak's new research underscores that. But it also hints at the remarkable speed with which nature is evolving to cope. According to his new study, bacteria around the world now possess as many as 30,000 enzymes with the potential to degrade at least ten different types of plastic. Mr. Zelezniak is an associate Professor at the Chalmers University of Technology in Gothenburg, Sweden. We reached him today in Vilnius, Lithuania.

CO: Aleksej, just how common has the ability to degrade plastic actually become?

ALEKSEJ ZELEZNIAK: So basically, we analyzed the DNA that is present in the samples sampled all over the world. And we found that virtually basically in every single sample, you find something that looks like that we know that…. that degrades plastic. So this seems to be that it is quite widespread all over the world.

CO: And are these… do you think this is new or this is actually microbes that have evolved? Or do you think they were there all the time and you just didn't see it?

AZ: Well, the microbes were all the time. The thing is that what was fascinating to find is that actually, the diversity of these plastic degrading enzyme is also correlating with pollution… local pollution levels that those… where the samples are taken from, meaning that basically the more… the more pollution you have, plastic pollution you have, the more diverse enzyme. So this actually also suggests that there is some sort of like evolution.

CO: Where did you take these samples from?

AZ: So these samples were obtained from previous studies. That is, findings in different places around the planet. So… so from oceans, seas and soils to all sorts of type of soil terrains and so on. We also contacted an organization called Adventure Scientists, and they have actually data with… with precise coordinates of calculation of microplastics. So, a nearly kind of quite in the near areas where the samples were. And then we matched the samples where the DNA was taken from, and we could see those quite strong correlation between that amount of plastic particles and also, the diversity of enzymes there.

CO: And you found this in highly polluted places like the Mediterranean Sea and the South Pacific Ocean, right?

AZ: Yes, exactly.

CO: Were you able to confirm that the bacteria actually do degrade the plastic or that their DNA makes them likely that they could do that?

AZ: Well, we can only kind of speculate, but the potential, of course it can, because we basically can see that there are known enzymes that degrade plastics are quite similar to those would be found.

CO: If they can degrade plastics, then what becomes of the product? What is… what is the byproduct of of what the bacteria and the enzymes are doing?

AZ: Right. So the plastic is a polymer, and sometimes it can degrade it to the monomers, so basically those building blocks that the plastic is built on. And if one can find that good, economically viable process, how can you revitalize them so that then we don't need to actually produce a new plastic if we could just recycle the old one?

CO: But OK, [chuckle] so is this… is this good news? I mean, it’s feeling like good news. Is this something that… can you see that this… that these microbes, these enzymes can be put to work?

AZ: Well, [chuckle] so… so… so this is actually what we're kind of doing. Basically, you can actually take that DNA from nature and you can put it into the bacteria and grow it in the lab and see how it works. Then, if you can find something that can, you know, do the plastics degradation, which is… which is, for instance, fast and then economically feasible, then it can be basically moved to industry. From that perspective, I believe that's the good news. The only kind of bad news that's, actually, the plastic is all over the world. And that affects everything, not only just the animals, but also bacteria.

CO: What… what you're saying is that it degrades to the point where it could be recycled into new plastic?

AZ: This is one of the scenarios, yes. But one thing, but you can also take the same chemicals and make a bacteria that instead of, you know, plastic you can produce other compounds that is also valuable, like a car fuel.

CO: Lots of potential here, but we know that this was… this kind of research was already going on, right? Because we spoke about a year ago with the U.S. team working to produce this naturally occurring enzyme discovered at a recycling centre and just trying to find ways to accelerate the process of… of the work of that enzyme. It’s still a pretty slow process. Can you… do you think you can speed it up?

AZ: Well, so… so that's… this, of course, there are lots of challenges to do that. And generally, it's like, you know, enzyme engineering, the whole field. But we at least can find something that is quite substantially different from what is known, and it has some activity. So this is also another starting point to do the same.

CO: We know having spoken to many recyclers that… that it's still cheaper and faster to make virgin plastic, no matter what you come up with in the way of recycling. So is it possible to get to the place where it's cheaper and faster to actually use recycled plastic?

AZ: That's kind of the problem of the whole problem of plastic waste. The economy is a very big driver also in this regard of pollution. If we can find a way to go around this, maybe we could also reduce that raw plastic production from the oil. But… but rather kind of use this, this this other means like biodegradation.

CO: We also know that people, once they believe that plastic can be recycled or they think that it can be, then they're inclined to use it. And so, it… it defeats the efforts to try and get people to reduce their plastic because they think, well, you know, it's… it's going to just be recycled and used someplace else. Do you think that's a danger of your research?

AZ: Oh, I don't think it's a danger, but people don't know actually how the plastic recycled? If we can find actually and introduce these processes in that to recycling to make recycling a more circular economy, then I don't think that this is just a synergy.

CO: All right. Aleksej, we'll leave it there and I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

AZ: Thanks so much.

SM: Aleksej Zelezniak is an Associate Professor of Biology and Biological Engineering at the Chalmers University of Technology. His research is published in the journal, Microbial Ecology. We reached him in Vilnius, Lithuania.

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December 15, 2021 Episode Transcript

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