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The AIH Transcript For November 30, 2021

[hosts]Carol Off, Chris Howden[/hosts]

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[music: theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

CO: The doctor is out. A family physician in a northern Ontario town is packing up and leaving -- after false accusations that she was denying care to unvaccinated patients triggered an onslaught of online abuse.

CH: Royals flushed. Barbados drops Queen Elizabeth as its head of state and become the world's youngest republic -- but our guest says that without a public vote, some people wonder what self-determination really means?

CO: Business as usual. A Vermont parcel service owner welcomes a return to normal, and the return of his Canadian customers -- who are no longer waylaid by border closures and costly COVID-test requirements.

CH: Using his voice to heal and protect. The late Phil Saviano had the courage to speak out about the priest who abused him as a child -- and the even greater courage to take on the Catholic Church.

CO: Feeder frenzy. Ornithologists have decoded the subtle social cues of almost 200 bird species when they interact with each other -- and identified the seediest characters at the birdfeeder.

CH: And... Labour intensive. A New Zealand politician finds delivering her second child is just like riding a bike -- which, amazingly, is how she got to the hospital for both births.

CH: As It Happens, the Tuesday edition. Radio that's sure people told her she wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't, but she's clearly not stopped by contractions.

[music: theme]

Part 1: Doctor Anti-Vax Care, Border Testing Lifted, Birdfeeder Social Order, NZ Biking Birth

Doctor Anti-Vax Care

Guest: Dr. Gretchen Roedde

CH: Gretchen Roedde has had enough. Dr. Roedde is the only full-time family physician in the small Ontario town of Latchford. But a recent flood of online harassment and abuse has pushed her to leave her practice. The hostility came after a town councillor claimed on Facebook that Dr. Roedde was refusing to see unvaccinated patients -- a completely unfounded accusation. So now, she has decided to move on from Latchford, where she's practiced for years. We reached Dr. Gretchen Roedde in nearby Haileybury, Ontario.

CO: Dr. Roedde, how did it feel to be subjected to this hate mail in the community that you have dedicated yourself to serving?

DR. GRETCHEN ROEDDE: I think what I'm feeling is it's like, let's say you've got two patients and they're in the middle of a big divorce, and they're yelling at each other, and then they're yelling at you because, at the moment, everybody's attacking everybody. So I got a lot of abuse in the social media. So did some of the people that wrote those posts against me have now got their share of abuse back. So there's a lot of, I think, angry and frightened people on all sides of this crazy dispute.

CO: I want to get at how you felt to be subjected to that mail?

DGR: Horrible. Horrible. I mean, it was really nasty. [chuckling] And it was interesting, since I announced my resignation, like, there's been all sorts of messages of support and phone calls and patients. And, you know, Dr. Roedde, we love you. And you're thinking, well, that... that's nice now that I'm leaving. But yeah, it was... it was harsh. And, you know, I've been in difficult spots. I've been in war-torn countries. I've been in a lot of places where my personal safety was at risk. I have not felt as horrible as I did with us, and I'm trying to sort of figure that out. And part of it is like, this is home. And if home is not the place where you can rest and feel at peace, then it's really bad. I think that's hard on the heart.

CO: Yeah. What kinds of things were they saying about you?

DGR: You know, they were angry that I was trying to promote vaccination. Some of these messages were just Dr. Roedde's horrible. She treated my family horribly. She's horrible. She's mean.

CO: So you saw these various things about you. And among them, you were being accused of not seeing or treating patients who were unvaccinated. Is that right?

DGR: Yes. So what I had said is when somebody is not vaccinated, they are at risk. If they come into, let's say, a doctor's office that's potentially full of germs. The other medical clinics have, since beginning of the epidemic, have put sort of safeguards in place where most people were being dealt with by phone. Where you go to the outside of the clinic, and you have the ring, and you have to have a pre-booked appointment. So we're all in with that. And then I finally got the memo to myself, and I said, maybe I should do something like that here because my practice tends to be people will just kind of wander in.

CO: And so you had to put some protocols in place.

DGR: I Just… I thought, yeah, let's... let's just say, what are we going to do about the unvaccinated? Because you're... you're risking yourselves, and you're risking other people. Because if I have you come in and you're... you know, turn out to be positive, then I have to figure out, you know, what do I do about the people that are now sick? So it generated a lot of anger. And so, I have with my COVID unvaccinated patients. So one woman who had nearly died delivering her baby, obviously we saw her and her baby. We just saw them at the very end of the day. And we did everything cleaning, wiping down everything before and after. I've seen people in the parking lot. I still was doing house calls, which I do a lot of. So I was seeing people that are unvaccinated that you could not... I didn't want... not want to see in the office. I would see them at home.

CO: And you would do..., and you were seeing them at home on the weekends, right? You were using your weekends to see them?

DGR: Oh yeah, there is no week or weekend in a doctor's life. I had a COVID-positive patient that I was looking after at home, and I saw him every day. And then, as his lungs got worse and his oxygen saturations went down. Then I said, OK, time... well, let's get him into the hospital, call the ambulance. I got him dressed. You know, lots of close contact there. I would go in my little hazmat outfit. But anyway, he went to hospital, was in the intensive care unit for 10 days and has now come home. So I'll continue to see him. And so, you know, care kept going on. It just... everybody sort of misinterpreted or interpreted based on their own anger or fear or whatever.

CO: Not only were you continuing to see patients who were unvaccinated, going to their homes to take care of them or setting them off-hours, but you obviously put your own self at risk, your own health at risk by exposing yourself to this, right?

DGR: Yes. Yes. Luckily, you know, health care workers were on the frontline, so we got our doses quickly. So I was double vaccinated very early on. I'm now triple vaccinated. And I think that makes me feel better. So, you know, anything that you can do to make things safer, we should do. And in my judgement, somebody coming to the office for something non-essential. I do all... I do my prescriptions all by phone and fax. Whether you're vaccinated or not vaccinated, in terms of a use of my time of what I want to have in the office, that's something I can easily delegate to doing it by fax.

CO: And so you were able to clear things up with this... this councillor, Scott Green, who was saying false things about you and Facebook.

DGR: Yeah.

CO: But... but basically, was the damage done? Did it make any difference when he apologized?

DGR: I mean, he and I are completely good, totally good. And what's happened, though, is now the outpouring of anger against him. So he's getting hate mail. He's actually vaccinated. His family is vaccinated. Everybody... he's going to have his youngest child vaccinated this week. He's not an anti-vaxxer. He was just somebody who thought I was limiting care. And as I say, he should have called me and we would have discussed it and would have been sorted. So, you know, jumping to Facebook without thinking is not the best strategy. So we're all good. But now, he's getting all the vaxxer hate mail, all the, you know, yelling at him, calling him horrible names. Like he quoted some of the things people were saying to him. You know, lots of swear words and most of this and all... on and on.

CO: Now, despite all the fact that maybe people understand now through this what you've been doing, you've still decided to wrap up your practice and leave, right?

DGR: Yes. Because, you know, this came... I mean, I have a very tough practice. And, you know, when you're trying to promote your practice for somebody else, you shouldn't say it's one of the poorest, sickest and oldest in the province, but it's true. So it's a tough practice, and I have been there for nine years. And I'm 69, and I thought when this all happened, it was like a flashpoint. I said, OK, enough is enough. I'm announcing my resignation. I've been on the faculty, the Northern Ontario School of Medicine. I've had many students come through my practice. So I'm hoping that one of my former students will decide to come back. And, you know, as I say, when it all came to pass, I just thought, you know, I'm tired, and I don't want to do this anymore. You know, the practice is hard enough on its own without having this added stuff. And then, as I say, the added stuff, I think, it hurt because it was hitting you on your own home ground. It was just the last straw, and the last straw was enough to say, we're done.

CO: Well, Dr. Roedde, I hope that you're able to enjoy what comes next. And I do appreciate what you've done there and speaking with us today. Thank you.

DGR: Thank you so much for calling.

CO: Bye.

DGR: Bye.

CH: Dr. Gretchen Roedde is a family physician in Latchford, Ontario. She was in nearby Haileybury.

[Music: Banjo]

Border Testing Lifted

Guest: Ricky Hoy

CH: The doors have reopened to cross-border shopping. As of today, fully vaccinated Canadians are free to make day trips to the US without undergoing expensive COVID tests. That's hopeful news for U.S. business owners who catered to Canadian customers, until border restrictions put them out of reach. Ricky Hoy bought Pinnacle Parcels before the pandemic. We reached him at the shop in Richford, Vermont.

CO: Ricky, how is business today?

RICKY HOY: I've had a handful of customers, I think six or seven customers so far.

CO: And is that going to pick up?

RH: Yeah. So with the lifting of the PCR tests, they kind of worded it in a way where I think a couple of people got confused. Because they said that the restrictions were going to get lifted at midnight November 30th, and what they meant was yesterday to today, so the 29th to the 30th, that midnight, the restrictions would be lifted. So a lot of my customers keep saying they'll see me December 1st, thinking that it was the 30th midnight to December 1st. So.

CO: So, what does it mean for your business that this has been lifted?

RH: It means that any vaccinated customers can now come down and collect packages, so I will actually be able to have customers come down to pick up packages.

CO: Right. And so this is the service you run is that Canadians who have their... what they've ordered from the United States, they can go to your... your business and pick up those parcels, right?

RH: Yes.

CO: And so how many parcels have been backlogged since the... this business began that you had to have... well, first of all, the borders closed and then you had to pay for this very expensive test in order to cross the border?

RH: I have... I don't know. I've been shipping packages across the border for customers that were willing to pay the ridiculous shipping prices. But I would say my current inventory right now is double what it is normally at when the border was fully open. So I would say from the packages that I've shipped, I think I've had about three times the amount of inventory just waiting for the border to open.

CO: Wow! So how many parcels did you have at the peak of it?

RH: So I would consider right now to be the peak because people started shipping more once they heard the border is going to open. So with what I have in-house is between 1,300 to 1,400 packages right now.

CO: [chuckling] Oh dear! Wow! And so people now can... the change is is that people now can cross over from... make short trips to the United States, from Canada and come back without having to do a very expensive test to return, right? So that makes a big difference.

RH: Yeah, yeah. So they're able to cross within a 72 hour period. So if they're in the States for longer than 72 hours, that's when they have to test. So their little trips just down here to visit a few shops and go home in an hour, they don't have to pay, you know, that... that test price out of pocket.

CO: So this has been a good business for Canadians who want to buy things in the United States and not pay those... those costs. But where did you put all the parcels while you were waiting for the border to fully open and... and this test to drop?

RH: I've been able to fit every package... every package that was delivered just in... in my office space. I have a few stacks to the ceiling. But for the most part, I can still move freely around my office, so.

CO: And what's the oldest parcel you have there in your store?

RH: Well, I have some packages from 2019, and I don't know if that's because of the border being closed? Because the border closed, you know, a few months into 2020, so it could just be customers that ordered packages and forgot about them or ordered them, and they're not important, so they're just leaving them here. I don't really know, but I do have packages dated 2019 that have yet to be picked up.

CO: And what do your Canadian customers say to you since they've been cut off from their stuff?

RH: They've mainly... like, their main concerns for just storage costs, which I haven't been applying or charging anybody for storage because it's nobody's fault that the borders closed. They were worried that packages weren't going to get delivered or packages were going to get sent back, which I did not do. I held on to anything that was delivered. And they're just really making sure that their items were still here and that I was still here and open, which I am.

CO: But you bought this business just before the pandemic, right?

RH: Yeah, I bought the business in May of 2019.

CO: So most of your time in this business, almost all of it, has been under pandemic restrictions?

RH: Yeah, two-thirds. I owned the business open and operating for 10 months, and the border has been closed for 20 months now, I think somewhere around there.

CO: So how does it feel... how does it feel to know that you're soon going to be busy?

RH: It feels good. I mean, it was... it got a little tiring after hearing, you know, like the border is going to open next month and then next month and then next month, so I got a little discouraged. But now that everything is opening back up, and I'm actually going to start seeing business here for the next few weeks that hopefully, everything just goes back to normal.

CO: And presumably... presumably people, Canadians will… across the border, will start ordering things in the United States. So you will be getting more pork parcels pretty soon?

RH: Yeah, yeah. I've already started this last... this last week. I've been getting a lot more packages than I was before on the... on the daily basis.

CO: All right. Well, Ricky, we'll let you get back to work.

RH: All right. Well, thank you very much.

CO: Thank you. Bye.

RH: Bye.

CH: Ricky Hoy is the owner of Pinnacle Parcels. We reached him in Richford, Vermont.

[Music: Jazz]

Birdfeeder Social Order

Guest: Emma Greig

CH: For a lot of us, watching a birdfeeder is like watching a particularly chill nature documentary: adorable, gently humourous, ultimately calming. But if you really know what's going on out there, it's more like a violent action movie about a battle between a collection of nasty, no-holds-barred feathered thugs. A kind of avian fight club. There's a pecking order at your birdfeeder. In fact, a group of ornithologists at Cornell University have discovered it's pretty much the same pecking order across North America. And they have made a list. Emma Greig is the leader of Project FeederWatch, and an ornithologist at the Cornell Lab of Ornithology. We reached her in Ithaca, New York.

CO: Emma, how did you manage to create this organogram of bird power?

EMMA GREIG: Oh, well, this was certainly a collaborative effort between myself and other researchers, notably Elliot Miller. He realized that by using all of the observations that people were collecting through this citizen science program called Project FeederWatch, we could get a lot of information about how birds were interacting with each other and then do some real fancy math and create this big hierarchy.

CO: [chuckling] And this thing, Project FeederWatch, has been going on for decades. And so, these are people just watching, looking at their bird feeders and fascinated with them as people are with... when they've got this setup for themselves. And then what? Feeding this information into a databank?

EG: That's exactly right. And there is so much you can learn.

CO: OK, so collectively out there, what do people say? What have you learned about who is the cock of [chuckling] the walk when it comes to bird feeders?

EG: Well, one of the big take homes was that size really matters. The bigger the bird, the higher they tend to rank on this dominance hierarchy. So, the top bird that we were able to see at feeders was maybe surprisingly the wild turkey because they're enormous. [laughing] So, of course, they're at the top.

CO: So they... wild turkeys go to bird feeders?

EG: Well, not super often. But this again, is sort of the beauty of these huge citizen science efforts is you're able to actually get information about things that happen not super often.

CO: Most feeders, what they'll find is the bigger birds, I guess... well, I guess the crow is the big one that people will see at their feeders, right?

EG: Well, right. So if you kind of narrow down the list of birds to those that are more common at bird feeders, crows, exactly. American crows are the ones that tend to come out on top. But there are... there are a couple other ones that I think would be really intuitive to folk: grackles, so black birds, and blue jays, and some of the woodpeckers end up being real high-ranking. And I think that a lot of folks would say, oh, well, of course they are because you see them bossing around other birds all the time. So some of the results, it's... it's kind of nice how the data really match up with our, I think, our intuition about these hierarchies that we observe in our feeders.

CO: OK, what's interesting, though in your [chuckle] hierarchy at the feeder is that size doesn't always matter. It's what you... what your armament is, right? And so the woodpeckers are, in this case, smaller birds, but they're higher up the pecking order.

EG: That is true. Exactly. So some of these birds are more aggressive than you would expect for their body size. And woodpeckers are among them. That's exactly right.

CO: As we make our way down the list, of course, we would expect to see the woodpeckers, the cardinal, but when we get into the low end of things, what surprises you about some of the little birds and how they manage to get something at the birdfeeder?

EG: Well, I was surprised that chickadees were so low on the list because I think of them as being kind of feisty, but they just aren't big on the fights. They get out of the way when someone comes along.

CO: How dangerous is it, though, for birds at the birdfeeder? Let’s say, if they decide that they're just going to defy the odds and make a dash for the food, even though there's some cardinal or crow that's dominating it, will they pay for that? Is there... is there… what motivates them not to actually make a rush for the food?

EG: So these behaviours that we were recording are called displacement behaviours. So that means a bird is coming in and another bird is moving out of the way, but they're not actually fighting. And that's a real important piece of it. Nobody wants to get hurt. So because there are these predictable relationships between different species, the chickadee knows, hey, if the junco comes around, I'm moving out of the way. [CO laughs] And the junco knows, hey, if the cardinal’s at the feeder, maybe I'm not going to go. But if the chickadee is there, I know I can go and the chickadee will step aside and let me get my seed. So these are ways that birds actually, even though it sounds aggressive, they're actually ways that the birds coexist with each other kind of peacefully.

CO: OK, not a peaceful bird, the goldfinches, right? They are so aggressive, pushy, angry over things, but they're not very high up the food chain, are they?

EG: Well, they're just too tiny. So I think part of what makes them really feisty and aggressive is that they're... they show up and they hang out in big flocks. So there are always lots of them around, so they're interacting with a lot of the times other goldfinches and vying for spots on the feeder, which is kind of another interesting twist on things, which is that sometimes the birds that you're going to be fighting with the most are your closest relatives, which maybe won't come as a huge surprise to us.

CO: We hope... we feel that way too, sometimes as people don't we? Especially just after Thanksgiving, right?

EG: Yeah, exactly.

CO: OK, but one other... a different species altogether, which actually rules the roost when it comes to these things that so when anyone knows a bird feeder knows that when the squirrels show up, everybody leaves, right?

EG: Oh yeah, the squirrels are, I mean, they're just a different, different beast. Enormous. They have teeth, so some squirrels and chipmunks or even predators of young birds. [chuckling] So, the birds got to get out of the way when squirrels show up.

CO: A squirrel will eat a bird?!

EG: like, a young... a little bird, it is possible for squirrels to actually depredate birds. Yes, so keep away.

CO: Yikes!

EG: Keep away from a squirrel.

CO: They're not so cute, are they?

EG: No, no. [chuckle]

CO: OK, everyone is going to rush to look at their birdfeeder after they finish listening to you, Emma, and his observations, and probably send in some more data for the... for further studies. So it's great to talk to you. Thank you.

EG: Oh, you're so welcome. Thank you.

CH: Emma Greig is the leader of Project FeederWatch, and an ornithologist at the Cornell Lab of Ornithology. She was in Ithaca, New York.

[Music: Elevator]

Cycling To Deliver Baby

CH: Some politicians are driven. She prefers to cycle. But Julie Anne Genter, who's a Green MP in New Zealand, doesn't just talk the talk -- she bikes the bike. Even in circumstances where most people might not be super-into the idea of sweating and straining their way up a hill under constant threat of getting doored. Such as when they're about to give birth. But in 2018, Ms. Genter rode a bike to the hospital to deliver her first child. Granted, the ride was mostly downhill, and she wasn't experiencing contractions -- she was going to be induced. Nevertheless, it showed real dedication to her politics. And last weekend, she proved that that first delivery wasn't just a PR stunt. Early Sunday morning, Julie Anne Genter went into labour. As she later posted on Instagram, "I genuinely wasn't planning to cycle in labour, but it did end up happening. My contractions weren't that bad when we left at 2 AM to go to the hospital -- though they were 2-3 min apart and picking up in intensity by the time we arrived 10 minutes later." [chuckle] And at 3:04 a.m., her second child was born. That's dedication to cycling. And I have no idea whether Ms. Genter is this solid on all her party's policies. But in the case of her commitment to cycling, she obviously doesn't back-pedal.

[Music: Pop beat]

Part 2: Barbados Republic, Phil Saviano Obit

Barbados Republic

Guest: Verla De Peiza

[Music: A regal instrumental]

CH: It was a celebration marked by musical performances, fireworks, a military band, and Rihanna. On the eve of its 55th year of independence, Barbados officially ditched its ties to the monarchy of the United Kingdom and became a parliamentary republic. While the Caribbean nation has now removed Queen Elizabeth as head of state, the country will stay part of the Commonwealth. It's a historic moment, but Verla De Peiza isn't celebrating yet. She is the leader of the Democratic Labour Party. We reached her in Saint Thomas, Barbados.

CO: Verla, does Barbados feel like a new country today?

VERLA DE PEIZA: No, it feels like it did yesterday and the day before that.

CO: What does feel like it's changed, then?

VDP: Nothing fundamental has changed. It is the potential for change, I think, that has our people holding their breath.

CO: So what do you think that changing... becoming a republic can do? What... what do you hope that this begins as far as change in Barbados?

VDP: Tangibly, I do not think it will resonate with the average Barbadian because the issues of the day have nothing to do with the republic, nor can a republic cure them. And that is to say that we have some comprehensive response to COVID. That we have some comprehensive plan going forward in relation to revenue generation at a time when we have all indicators that tourism will remain fickle and influenced by COVID. We also have a daily struggle for our people in relation to the cost of living, which just keeps rising. And the other thing that is increasing is the gap between those earning at the bottom of the scale and those earning top of the scale. So we have these competing interests, which are of greater importance in the lives of our people, that going to a republic will not address. Because it is window dressing, in essence.

CO: But do you support the idea of becoming a republic?

VDP: I support the idea in principle, but I recognize that our people today have no idea what it is that they are getting. If you consider that we had to commission in relation to the republic before. The Cox Commission in 1979 said don't move to a republic. The Ford Commission in 1989 said yes, you can move to the republic. The people are with you. But it divided the country at the time, so no administration since then did it. In 1989, the Barbadian society was not what it is today. For starters, there are voters... voters who weren't even born then. So they have had no say. Their voice has not be heard. They have had no input. That is the first. The second thing is that there are several different models of republic, and we don't know which one we are getting because we have not had the in-depth constitutional conversation. We're promised that next year. So we're guessing a republic without knowing what type of republic we're guessing. And it sucks all of the joy and expectation because you don't know what you're getting.

CO: So then what exactly... as you point out, not much has changed. It's window dressing. That basically, you become a republic overnight. So now, this... this transition is happening. You wanted it to happen with a referendum, right?

VDP: My preference was with a referendum, but any manner of consultation with the people was preferred. So it could have been town hall meetings. Like, you know, anything that's all that engaged your population and crystallized positions before having the ceremony so that we would know what it is. Just... just by way of comparison, in 1966, when we became independent, thousands of Barbadians flocked to the garrison. Last night, the media was reckoning that scores of Barbadians turned up to witness.

CO: Why do you think that's the case?

VDP: Because the people were not involved in the process, so they're not engaged in it.

CO: You also said you don't know what kind of a system, what kind of republic, you have? What... what's your greatest concern there?

VDP: The greatest concern is that we have so many different models of republic in the world. We don't really know what we're getting. There's the American model. There's a French model. There's a Chinese model. There's a North Korean model. And there are variants in between. I'm just picking a few at random. We don't know which one we are getting? And also, the... the one change that has taken place so far is fundamentally different from what we were told was going to happen because we were told that it would just be a title change from Governor General to president. And we are used to Governors General who sit for life or until they choose to omit office. Whereas what went to Parliament and what has happened is that we now have a president for a four-year term. A president for a four-year term is

Essentially a political appointee, given that our electoral cycle is five years. So we're getting something fundamentally different from what we were told it was going to be. And that creates a nervousness for what other fundamental changes will be made, absent consultation.

CO: Do you fear that it will affect your democracy, people's democratic rights?

VDP: It has the potential to do so. And certainly because what has happened so far is happening without the voice of the people. There is that concern. Whether it transpires or not, it gives rise to that concern that we may well be governing from on high as opposed to serving the will of the people.

CO: Well, Verla, we will leave it there, and I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

VDP: No problem at all.

CH: Verla De Peiza is the leader of the Democratic Labour Party in Barbados. We reached her in Saint Thomas.

[Music: The Mini-Updates Theme]

Quebec Police Officer Video Response

CH: The video is difficult to watch. And must have been exponentially worse to go through. A Quebec City police officer can be seen pinning down a Black teenager, punching him repeatedly, and kicking snow in his face. The incident happened in the early hours of Saturday morning outside a bar, where a group of young people were gathered when police arrived. A lawyer for Pacifique Niyo-kwi-zera, the 18-year-old in the video, says his client was never charged. And after driving a couple of blocks away, the police officer released him. Quebec City's police department has launched an investigation, and five police officers have been suspended with pay. None of this comes as shock to Aly Ndiaye. He is a Quebec hip-hop artist who performs under the name Webster.

SOUNDCLIP

ALY NDIAYE: Well, I wasn't that surprised. The only difference with the last two decades is that it was filmed. Like, the whole public was able to see... to see it. So for almost the first time, you went outside the Black experience in Quebec City because this is something we knew about. This is something we've seen our whole lives. So the thing I'm happy with is that this is the first time like for this time now, the whole province is able to see what's going on with SPQ here in Quebec City.

PETER TARDIF: The chief of Quebec City Police has said that the video does not show what happened leading up to that intervention. The police fraternity has echoed the same message. Does that make any difference to you?

AN: No, because we know that’s what they'll say. They did it to protect themselves. It’s always been this way. But we don't know to... to... to see what was going on before. Like, when did they punch people in... in the face like that? When did they shove snow in the face of the people that they arrested? I've never seen no... no... no martyr, no white nationals being treated that way. Alexandre Bissonnette wasn't treated that way.

PT: How much does an incident like this affect the way that you see police?

AN: Well, to me, it has broken... my trust was broken long ago. I had to... to work hard to be able to differentiate and understand that not every... every policemen or women are acting this way, but they still condone. And by their non-action, they still condone what's going on. So we need to see action now. I've been pulled over a great number of time to... to give my IDs, walking down the street going to work, asking for my IDs while I'm going to work in the morning. I've been pulled over like three times in two days. And this is something we know about. And I've had some of my friends who were beaten up. I’ve had some of my friends who were during the night brought up north in the middle of the night and left there to fend for themselves. These are some things... this... this is nothing new.

CH: That was Aly Ndiaye -- aka Webster -- speaking with Quebec AM guest host Peter Tardif about a video of a Black teenager being punched by a Quebec City police officer.

[Music: Indie rock]

Phil Saviano Obit

Guest: Jim Saviano

CH: Phil Saviano knew what his parish priest did to him as a boy was wrong. He was 11 in the early 1960s when the priest in Massachusetts sexually molested him. But Mr. Saviano kept it a secret for decades. Then, he decided to break his silence -- a choice that would eventually rock the Catholic Church, bringing to light widespread sexual abuse by clergymen. In 2019, Phil Saviano spoke to a reporter outside the Vatican about that moment.

SOUNDCLIP

PHIL SAVIANO: When I turned 40 in 1992, there's a little story in the Boston newspaper about these two men in the state of New Mexico -- the other side of the country -- who said that in the 1970s, 10 years after my own experience, they too had been molested by a priest who is also from Massachusetts. And I sat there, and I read their story, and I realized it was the same priest as mine. And for me, that was a life-changing moment because I realized… and this still makes me emotional, but I realized that no one in the church would ever stop that priest. So I felt it was important to go public with my story.z

CH: The Boston Globe would eventually tell that story -- an investigation dramatized in the Academy Award-winning movie Spotlight. Phil Saviano died this week after dealing with several health crises. He was 69. His brother Jim cared for him at home until the end. We reached Jim Saviano in Douglas, Massachusetts.

CO: Jim, first of all, I'm so sorry for your loss.

JIM SAVIANO: Well, thank you, I appreciate that.

CO: What's it like to hear your brother, Phil, talking about that life-changing moment when he decided to speak out?

JS: [sniffle] Well, it's good to hear his voice again, [trying not to cry] makes me emotional. I'm sorry. He's a very, very good person, very thoughtful, very considerate of others. And I'm sure what crossed his mind at that moment was that this priest had been allowed to continue molesting young children and they just moved him around. And that is what provoked him to take some action.

CO: This is the 1990s, and he came forward to do that. How many people were willing to even listen to him when he started to talk about not just that priests were doing this... there are paedophile priests, but that they were being moved around? There they were being covered up by the church itself?

JS: [sniffle] Well, I know that he tried to get other friends of his in Douglas who had been abused by this priest to come forward. And I know that their parents were angry about that. They wanted to hide it. They called my father and told him to tell his son not to bother their children. I know that even years later, when he went to The Boston Globe the first time and told them what he had found, they thought he was a conspiracist. They... they didn't believe it. He was met with threat. He was met with admonishment. And he was not befriended. He might have been befriended by a few. But generally, he was shunned.

CO: And for you, as watching your brother go through that struggle to be heard, what was it like for you?

JS: Well, I have to say that probably not the answer you were expecting. I was 10 years older than Phil. For example, when he was eight, I went off to college, and I didn't look back. And that's not to say I didn't see Phil, but it wasn't like I was home with him every night. So although we loved each other, and we had good times when we were together, we were not together that often. So your question, what was it like for me at that time? He didn't open up to us until then… [clears throat] ‘92 or so. We knew nothing about his abuse. And when he opened up, I tried to be as supportive as I could, as did my brothers. But my father getting calls from his friends, saying, you know what's going on? Keep your son away from my son, reacted, as you would expect a second-generation Italian to act. And that is, why are you doing this? Just let sleeping dogs lie. Don't make a lot of noise. Let it go. [sniffle]

CO: Why did he not let it go? What gave him the courage that so few others had to talk about what had happened? Because he was very... he was very blunt about what had happened. What... what gave him that courage?

JS: What he said was, I cannot allow this to go forward. And he took it upon himself to do something about it, to stop the abuse of children. And to do that, he had to take down the church. So he began his research. You know, when he saw that Holley had been pushed around parish to parish, he figured out what was going on. That it wasn't just a local priest, that it was the hierarchy that was complicit.

CO: Will just say that David Holley is the priest who abused your brother and many others, and who died in prison, serving a very long sentence for what he had done.

JS: Yeah.

CO: But your brother was also... had been diagnosed with AIDS at that point.

JS: Yeah. [sniffle]

CO: And didn't feel he had a lot of time, right?

JS: Well, he has said that. He said the fact that I was dying gave me the courage to act. I find that hard to believe, to tell you the truth. Whether he had AIDS or not, when he saw that Holley had been moved in and that it was continuing and others were complicit. Knowing my brother, he would have acted, whether he was on his deathbed or not. If you knew my brother, he is just a wonderful, caring human being. He has been that way his whole life.

CO: And I would add brave and courageous to that because --

JS: Absolutely.

CO: He had so much resistance, even as you say, from some members of your family. But when he went to... anyone who has seen the movie, Spotlight, knows that eventually, The Boston Globe listened to what Phil had to say, not just what he had to say, what he had to show. He had documents. He had put things together. He had papers. He could show what was going on that people thought was sort of a conspiracy theory, and they dug deep and found out the true story, right?

JS: That's true.

CO: The effect of what your brother Phil started was enormous. Because he was able to show what became the story, which was that not just were there pedophile priests and abusive priests in the system, but that the church knew that they were there and knew what they were doing and covered it up and moved the priests around, and so many people were able then to come out and say, tes, this is what happened to me by the same priest as the others. So... and they considered him a hero. How did he see... did he see himself as a hero?

JS: I think when the Spotlight team called him back the second time and he had the impact with them and blew the case wide open, if you will, I think he began to feel that he was… that something special was happening. I won't use the word hero because I don't think that happened probably until the Spotlight film and the Academy Award. I think then, he... he saw the admiration from so many people. And I think then he began to understand it [deep breathe] that he was a hero.

CO: And because he was a hero. Because of his courage. The Massachusetts authorities eventually identified more than 1,000 children who had now grown up had been sexually abused by hundreds of priests in the Boston Archdiocese over decades. And that the cardinal, the Archbishop of Boston, who had known of the problems and covered it up was forced to resign. And that the archdiocese has 500 lawsuits and $100 million in damage claims. It's an extraordinary accomplishment for him. And did your father eventually come around to seeing the value>

JS: Yes. Yes, he did. He finally recognized the importance of what Phill was doing and embraced it. He embraced Phil and sent him on his way with give ‘em hell.

CO: Told him to give ‘em hell out there?

JS: Yes.

CO: What did it mean to Phil? And to hear his father say that and support him?

JS: Well, it was probably for Phil the most important validation of what he was doing to hear it from his father, who had only understood it in terms of the reputation of the family. In terms of Phil sullying the reputation of the family.

CO: Instead, he did your family proud, didn't he?

JS: Huh, I’ll say.

CO: I know you're planning a memorial for Phil. It’s to be at the same church where he suffered the abuse. Why is that?

JS: Well, as he told me and others, he wants to be buried in the cemetery with his family. And two, he wants to show the church they have not knocked him down.

CO: Jim, I hope that that day is special, as it will be for so many people who want to celebrate the life and work of your brother Phil. And I really appreciate you telling us about him and speaking with us. Thank you.

JS: Well, thank you for giving me the opportunity. Bye-bye.

CH: Jim Saviano is in Douglas, Massachusetts. His brother is the late Phil Saviano, who blew the whistle on sexual abuse by clergy in the Catholic Church. Phil Saviano died on Sunday. He was 69 years old. And you can find more about him on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Folk]

Part 3: Lucian Freud Painting, Wolf Tracking Story

Protesting Child Vaccinations

CH: Like many parents of children under 12, Abby Blaszczyk was excited to get her son vaccinated. But her elation soon gave way to fear and disgust -- because of the protesters outside the vaccine clinic. On Sunday, Ms. Blaszczyk took her seven-year-old son to the clinic in North Bay, in Ontario, where they live. As she told the CBC, the trouble started as soon as they arrived.

SOUNDCLIP

ABBY BLASZCZYK: We arrived for an afternoon appointment with my seven-year-old, who is... he's already quite nervous about getting any vaccine. When we arrived, there was roughly 10 protesters, and again, I use that term very loosely, on the sidewalk outside of One Kids Place, where the vaccine clinic was being held. They verbally assaulted our car as my mom, and I drove in with my four-year-old and seven-year-old inside. The clinic itself was really incredible. It ran so smoothly with just amazing nurses. They were so caring and sweet to my son. So, you know, kudos to the North Bay Health Unit. But when we left the clinic, the crowd on the sidewalk had at least doubled in size, if not tripled. And there were people screaming with megaphones as we exited the building. They yelled at me that I had just injected my son with poison. They were spewing just other foul misinformation.

MARKUS SCHWABE: Things like what?

AB: Well, you know, just I can't even really remember. It was... to me personally, they told me I had I was committing murder to my... I was murdering my son. I was committing genocide. Stuff like that. And then just misinformation about the vaccine itself.

MS: And... and what was your reaction to that?

AB: I was shocked. I was not in any way prepared for that situation. I had been to both of the adult clinics in Memorial Gardens in North Bay. I saw no sign of any protesting. It just was... I was speechless. I was in complete shock. I just wanted to protect my son and my daughter and get out of there as fast as I could.

MS: So, what do you think should be done or needs to be done here?

AB: I think there needs to be... there has to be protection for children who are just trying to seek health care. But there has to be stronger laws against these protests, in air quotes. There has to be strong, firm fines against this because this is not a protest. It is strong harassment, and it has strong intimidation.

CH: That was Abby Blaszczyk speaking with Markus Schwabe, host of Morning North, in Ontario, about encountering anti-vaccine demonstrators this past weekend with her son.

[Music: Ambient]

Lucian Freud Painting

Guest: Thierry Navarro

CH: It's common enough for art historians to discover an artist didn't paint something they'd been given credit for. It's a lot less common for the artist to insist he didn't paint it -- when he did. Nearly 25 years ago, an unnamed Swiss collector bought a large nude painting attributed to the artist Lucian Freud at an auction in Geneva. But subsequently, during a phone call, Mr. Freud was adamant that it wasn't his work at all -- and that he would refuse to publicly acknowledge it. Since then, the collector has been trying to figure out what the truth is. So he asked his friend, private investigator Thierry Navarro to do some digging. And over two decades later, Mr. Navarro says he's confident the painting is an authentic Lucian Freud. We reached Thierry Navarro in Geneva, Switzerland.

CO: Thierry, first of all, just tell us about this phone call that took place 25 years ago between your friend and Lucian Freud?

THIEERY NAVARRO: Well, the owner, after acquiring the painting, tried to... to sell the painting. And this came to the ears of Lucian Freud. And then, he got a call from the painter, who proposed to double the price that the order paid at the auction. And this was not enough for the owner. And then, Lucian Freud became quite aggressive in his words and said, well, in that case, you will never sell it.

CO: How did Lucian Freud manage to make this painting unsellable?

TN: Well, he denied… he said, this is not from me. And the estate from Lucian Freud basically said, well, it has been denied by the painter, so there is no way for us to recognize anything. And also, the owner tried to reach out to different relatives to Lucian Freud and experts. And each time someone was asking the painter, he said, It's not from me. So then no way to go further.

CO: So he wouldn't authenticate it. So it just, in the end, became a painting unknown as far as the markets, the world markets, were concerned?

TN: Yes, because as far as you want to sell, especially now, I had to... to dig into this story and to understand things that were not documented. So it's very difficult to... to... to... to track something that has been denied by the painter and nobody really knew about this.

CO: The painting is called Standing Nude Male. Can you describe it for us?

TN: Very well-painted. Not fully finished; 90 percent of the canva is well-painted. The rest is, I would say, unfinished. And interestingly is that when experts, most of the experts, when they see the painting, they quickly recognize. I would say within 10 seconds, they can say, well, this is a Lucian Freud. There is no question. You really feel the intensity and the way he painted this canva.

CO: I know that you have done a lot of research into this background in order to authenticate it, but just tell us the story, what you have come to understand is the subject of this painting and why it had such a... why it mattered so much to the artist himself?

TN: When I came into this painting, two... I would say two analyses were already done. He concluded this is also Lucian Freud, but he could not explain the model. And this was somehow triggering my mind why this painting would have been denied? What is so special? And we had this witness from living... someone living still in Geneva recognized the painting and explained it was in the flat. So the story about this flat used by Francis Bacon gave me, somehow, a direction to to look and to search more into the relationship with Francis Bacon. And then I came to this book that Francis Bacon was using where we have a lot of pictures of nude people in action. It's The Human Figure in Motion. And I was just trying to say, OK, is there a fit between this book and those images and this painting? And I recall clearly at a certain point, looking at plenty of images, suddenly I got the match. There was one... there is one perfect image that really well, you say, well, that's that's clear. That's... that's... that's the origin. And then, I search into the face to understand, OK, I got the match from the book, but who is this man? And then I search images of Lucian Freud. And then with a computer, by zooming, I was able to compare. And you clearly see... even kids, they can just by placing the image each to the other, you can clearly see that it matches also.

CO: And so, what you were able to... you connected the dots and you were able to figure out that the figure was... the nude came from or was inspired by a book of nude athletes owned by Francis Bacon. And then, you determined that the face on the nude was actually Lucian Freud himself. So this was a self-portrait that had a close connection with Francis Bacon. So, did we know about that before? Was this relationship between these two extraordinary artists... was it something people knew?

TN: We have plenty of stories about their relationship. But the fact is more, I think, about what was their relationship in Geneva, which is not really well-documented. Because at the time the gay community was using Geneva, they came to Geneva because there was so much secrecy about the way people could live their life. And then, if this painting remained in the flat and Lucian Freud left it there, I can imagine seeing this painting back on the market would be like, OK, I know I want to... to... to have this painting in my hands. That would probably be the... the emotion for Lucian Freud.

CO: So this is a very private, very intimate portrait that he... that was associated with this house in Geneva, with... where gay men... gay artists would assemble. That's... that's the story you've been able to put together. So what happens now with the painting that you have been able to authenticate it as the painting of Lucien Freud?

TN: So, now this has been established, and I don't know exactly what the market is going to... to consider from that. But for the owner, I think now he's somehow released about this pressure, these difficulties he had over more than 25 years trying to... to get his painting recognized. And also, to be able to share it with the public is definitely something that is already a good reward.

CO: Thierry, it's a fascinating story, and I appreciate you telling that to us. Thank you.

TN: Thank you very much. Goodnight.

CH: Thierry Navarro is a private investigator. And we reached him in Geneva, Switzerland.

[Music: Piano]

Windsor Ethiopian Man’s Father Dead

CH: Every day, Mulugeta Tedla becomes more and more desperate to make contact with his mother. He lives in Windsor, Ontario... and she's in war-torn Ethiopia. A month ago, Mr. Tedla learned that his father had died. But he still hasn't been able to get a call through to speak to his mother or his siblings about what happened.

SOUNDCLIP

MULUGETA TEDLA: It is very painful. I mean, I didn’t get a chance to support my mother. I want to send her money. I want to support her. And I want to also, you know, support her morally. And not only her, my brothers and my sisters. And it's just normally I would have gone and then, you know, attended the funeral. Most people do within tight a week time, but unfortunately, I have not even a chance to talk. And I was so disappointed, so depressed about it. My children never had a chance to call my mom still. It's been, like, for a year. There was a couple months that they opened the phones, but they disappeared immediately. Now, it's on the fourth month that there is no communication whatsoever. And not only that. Worse than the phones, there is no food whatsoever. They burned all the food that they had reserved. And then now, I mean, starvation is used as a mechanism of war. How... they’re playing chess. If the government of Tigray is trying to get help from the Sudan way, they block that way. And then they go to the neighbouring Afar region, and then they block. it’s like, let's block them so they can start to die. you know, to death. I just couldn't believe your own people you could do such a… I know war has some political impact. They started war because of political differences. But why the people? Why do they starve the people? My people, I mean, my... my brothers, my sisters, my... my nieces, nephews. I'm talking about myself. And there are so many people who I have relatives in the capital city. Even the Canadian government knows this. They are arresting like door-to-door, by... by checking their names on the I.D. If they are from Tigray, they are entitled to... to... to be imprisoned. I mean, this reminds me of the Nazi time. I couldn't... this is ethnic cleansing. There are a group of people who are going door-to-door to arrest any Tigrayan who is living in the capital city in the 21st century. Can you imagine?

CH: Mulugeta Tedla speaking with our colleagues at CBC Windsor. Mr. Tedla also serves as the chair of the association of Tigrayan Communities in Canada. Last week, the government of Canada advised all Canadians in Ethiopia to leave the country immediately as a result of the conflict.

[Music: Jazz]

Abbotsford Drone Footage

CH: Since flooding overwhelmed the Abbotsford area earlier this month, Harry Sidhu and his family haven't been able to get access to their farms. But they have been able to get some aerial video using a drone. And Mr. Sidhu says what he saw was "disturbing." In an interview this morning, the blueberry farmer described that footage -- and his concerns about the long-term effects.

SOUNDCLIP

HARRY SIDHU: Didn't see any blueberries. You know, some of these fields had eight to 10 feet of water in them.

STEPHEN QUINN: Gosh! And what impact would that have on those plants?

HS: Blueberry plants do not like to be underwater. This is something that is extreme that's happened, and it hasn't happened before in the past. And some of these plantings are going to be... have to be ripped and replaced.

SQ: Oh gosh!

HS: From the severity of the flooding.

SQ: And how many plants would we be talking about, then?

HS: [sigh] I couldn't give you a count on plants. This is going to be in tears, low impact, moderate impact, severe impact. And it that severely impacted group, you're looking at possibly 650 to 1,000 acres, at least.

SQ: Oh my gosh!

HS: To be ripped out and replaced.

SQ: And, of course, it would take time for new... new plants to bear fruit. Several years, I understand?

HS: It's putting back somebody 10 years.

SQ: Oh gosh! I'm so sorry to hear that. Harry, it wasn't long ago we were talking to blueberry farmers in Abbotsford about your plants being scorched in the heat dome. And now, here they are underwater. I mean, what is the long-term impact for blueberry farming in the area?

HS: It doesn't look good at this point in time. You know, that heat really hurt guys losing production, possibly damaged some canes, you know, production for the following year. But where we're at right now with this flooding, we don't even have words to describe. The fact that it's catastrophic or horrific is not the right word, even.

SQ: Yeah.

HS: It's something beyond belief.

CH: That was Abbotsford blueberry farmer Harry Sidhu speaking with Stephen Quinn, host of CBC Vancouver's The Early Edition this morning.

[Music: Sombre]

Wolf Tracking Story

Guest: Amaroq Weiss

CH: For months, conservationists cheered on the travels of OR-93 -- a gray wolf who made a record-breaking trek from Oregon to Southern California. The wolf had been tagged by scientists. And subsequently spotted in areas where his kind had been wiped out up to 200 years before. But last week came the news that his travels were over for good -- OR-93 was reportedly hit by a vehicle and left by a highway. Amaroq Weiss is the Senior West Coast Wolf Advocate for The Center for Biological Diversity. We reached her in Petaluma, California.

CO: Amaroq, what did it mean to you when you learnt this wolf was dead?

AMAROQ WEISS: I think the thing, Carol, is that we all look to nature for hope. And so when we hear about an amazing wolf that has made an incredible journey that the world has learned about has died, it's... it's... it's such a sad feeling. It's such a sad feeling. I know it struck me like a family member had died.

CO: Tell us a bit about this wolf, known as OR-93, from Oregon. What was so exceptional about him?

AW: OR-93 is, first of all, the very first wolf from his particular pack to come to California. He was born in the White River pack just south of Portland and came into California in early January. So that all by itself was great because we've not had any walls from his pack come here before. And we... we have very few wolves, to begin with, so any new genetic diversity is a great thing. And then secondly, he made this remarkable journey. In the first three months of the year, he travelled through 16 counties, all the way down to the southern Sierra. And then, even more remarkably, he turned west. He cut across the Central Valley of California and ended up in our coastal counties, making him the first wolf in those counties in 200 to 300 years. SO, Everything he did was pretty spectacular.

CO: What was he doing? What was he looking for?

AW: He is an animal that was just short of two years of age. And when wolves get to be about one and a half to two years old, that's when they typically leave their birth packs. Whether they're mates or they're looking for mates, they're looking for territories of their own. And both males and females do this. He was looking for love.

CO: And this happens, of course, as you mentioned. But do they... how unusual is it to be travelling so far looking for love?

AW: Well, here's the thing. We know how far he travelled because he had a radio collar on. But most wolves don't have radio collars. And so we don't know how typical it is for a wolf to make this kind of a journey. I can tell you that in most instances, wolves will often travel several hundred miles, at least, before they find a mate and then establish a territory. There have been some other wolves that have travelled thousands of miles, but they haven't really made this historic journey where the place they ended up was a place no wolf had been for... for three centuries.

CO: And what does that say to you?

AW: Well, it goes back to what I said at the beginning. It goes back to hope. We lost most of the wolves in this country, not because of habitat loss, but because we killed them all off. That's what European colonists and settlers did when they came to this country. So the idea of having wolves come back, oh, that... that... that... that's such immense hope to know that we can have wolves come back because legal protections have been put in place, and those are really important. When wolves lose legal protections, we have a lot to fear for them. But in California, we actually have a really protective state law here. So at least he came to the right state. We just wish his life had been longer.

CO: And you say that it's a sign of hope. It was a great thing. But of course, as you mentioned, the reason why the wolves are extinct in that part of... or wiped out in so many parts of... of Europe or this continent is because people don't want them. And so, what do you say to those who probably are possibly not happy and don't think it's a great thing or a sign of hope that the wolves are looking for love in your part of the country?

AW: Yeah, it's a great question. You know, the fact is, most of the population does want wolves back, but it's a very vocal minority of people who don't. And for those who don't, I urge them to think about the fact that we all share this one planet Earth. And that all the other critters on this planet are here to... that in such a way that actually makes our life better as well. They have their own intrinsic value, of course, but they each contribute to healthy, wild nature. So if you love deer and elk, you should love wolves because they actually help keep them healthy. And if you love fly fishing, you should love wolves because by keeping elk and deer on the move that keeps the vegetation growing, which provide shade over creeks and ponds that fish and frogs need to thrive. You know, just... just a few of the simplest things that we think of as our daily pleasure in nature, we have predators like wolves to thank for that. They're a really important part of the ecosystem. And... and they're just like us. You know, as I talked about before, he came from a family. Wolves are probably more like us than just about any other animal. That's what a wolf pack is. It's a mom and dad, their pups from this year, and their teenagers from the year before.

CO: It's interesting that we so often convince people or try to convince them to appreciate animals because of what benefit they might be to us. And it's so hard for us to see the intrinsic value of creatures, isn't it?

AW: It really is. And the thing is with wolves, when you start observing them, it's so, so obvious. One of my very favourite little stories came from a biologist in Alaska who watched a babysitter wolf teach the young puppies of the litter how to cross a stream that they were scared to cross. And literally, when I say a babysitter, I mean that when the adult parent wolves go off hunting, they leave the young pups with a teenage babysitter wolf. How much more like a human family is that? And how much more does that tell you that these animals have lives? They have feelings and emotions, and they think about the future. And they teach their young culture. Wolves have culture.

CO: Amaroq, it's really good to speak with you. Thank you.

AW: Thank you so much. Have a good rest of your day.

CO: You too.

CH: Amaroq Weiss is the Senior West Coast Wolf Advocate for The Center for Biological Diversity. She was in Petaluma, California.

[Music: Ambient]

Reproducing Xenobots

CH: When we last spoke with Doug Blackiston about how his team had created tiny living robots from frogs' skin cells, he had two pieces of comforting information. One: The so-called xenobots held plenty of promise. From potentially helping to rid waterways of microplastics, to one day delivering lifesaving medications into the bloodstream. Two: They could not reproduce. And thank goodness for that. I mean, living robots are one thing. But living robots that can make other living robots are another thing. And, unfortunately, it turns out they may be the thing the researchers made. In a new paper, published by Mr. Blackiston and his collaborators this week, the team describes a process they call "kinetic replication." Basically, the xenobots collect loose cells from their surroundings and turn them into new xenobots. Maybe fortunately, others in the scientific community have been quick to point out that this is far from efficient, and doesn't technically constitute reproduction. But it certainly reproduced some of the unease we felt when Doug Blackiston first described his team's creations to us. From April, here's part of his last conversation with Carol, about discovering that such organisms were even possible.

SOUNDCLIP

DB: I think the surprising thing isn't that it can be done, but that roboticists and biologists have never really had a good reason to talk. We think they work with artificial components. Roboticists think we biologists work with natural things. And the idea of putting them together was very novel. And now I think we've created something special that has a lot of really cool applications that we can use. So we've shown in the past that these are very good at collecting really small particles the size of the types of microplastics that pollute a lot of our waterways, for example.

CO: So you got them to behave in ways that you want to. [chuckling] are they in any way, taken on a my mind of their own? Is their behaviour sometimes not what you programmed them to do?

DB: There is a lot of debate about that. So, yes, sometimes the biology does things that are unanticipated. and a lot of what they do that's unanticipated comes from the fact that we use a computer simulation to try to understand what might happen. So sometimes the simulator is a bit lost in its assumptions. But on the other hand, I think the fact that we can predict and can build these is very powerful. It shows that we can control the system. And so a lot of this work is trying to understand what parts of the biology we control and what parts might be useful.

CO: Any concerns, any ethical or... or biological concerns you have about these creations?

DB [understanding chuckle] Yes, so that comes up. I think there's something inherently creepy about these microscopic living robots sort of crawling around in the water or getting on you. The two answers I have are from... from a strictly legal standpoint. This is a community-wide decision to do any of this research. So everything that I do with living cells, if it's making even just these small robots, this has to be approved by the university, our state level and the federal government oversight committees. And so everybody has to sign off that this is OK ethically. And on our local, even in our school, our committee that oversees my work is not just scientists, it's ethicists, it's veterinarians, and it's also members of the community that have no scientific background. And they all have to vote that this is OK. There's no ability to reproduce in this system. There's no, you know, sperm or egg or any way for these to break apart and form new organisms. They all fall apart naturally at the end of their lifespan.

CH: Doug Blackiston is a Senior Scientist in the Department of Biology at Tufts University. He spoke with Carol in April. This week, his team released a new paper claiming their xenobots are capable of "kinetic replication," which is -- I suppose -- one thing you could call it.

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November 30, 2021 Episode Transcript

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