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The AIH Transcript For November 25, 2021

[hosts]Carol Off, Chris Howden[/hosts]

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[music: theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

CO: The path of most resistance. Twenty-seven people have drowned in the English Channel; a volunteer who helps rescue migrants says their deaths were all but inevitable -- because the British government has blocked off routes that would allow safe passage.

CH: Your money or their lives. An official with the Red Cross says sanctions against the Taliban are driving Afghans to starvation -- and that the international community is responsible for a man-made catastrophe.

CO: About face. Cosmetics company Lush is about to reverse course and shut down many of its social media accounts -- saying customers' mental health is more important than follows, likes, and retweets.

CH: State of the reunion. When Betty Grebenschikoff and her family fled the Nazis in the 1930s, she was separated from her childhood friend. Now, eight decades later, the two women have reunited in person.

CO Pros and conifers. Last night, our guest was overjoyed at the return of Woody the talking Christmas tree -- but for one Talkback caller, that name brought back memories of a traumatic trip to a Nova Scotia chopping mall... sorry, shopping mall.

CH: And... something like a venomenon. A reptile park in Australia is thrilled to receive an anonymous gift of a deadly funnel web spider -- and our guest attempts to explain the cult of poisonality around it.

CH: As It Happens, the Thursday edition. Radio that doesn't trust anyone who's toxin out of both sides of their mouths.

[music: theme]

Part 1: Channel Drownings, Lush Cosmetics No Social,Berlin WWII Friends

Channel Drownings

Guest: Simon Blunt

CH: They were trying to make their way to a better life. And they died trying to get there. At least 27 people have drowned in the English Channel. An inflatable boat carrying the migrants capsized off the coast of France. French authorities say three children were among the dead. Today, people held vigils in several cities in Britain. Meanwhile, the British government blamed the deaths on the people smugglers who put the asylum seekers on the flimsy dinghy. And it pointed fingers at the French government for not doing more to stop people from attempting the crossing. Simon Blunt is a volunteer with the aid group Channel Rescue. We reached Nottingham, England.

CO: Simon, at this point, what do you know about the people who died in this tragedy?

SIMON BLUNT: Details are actually still emerging. They've not been released by the authorities. Do know it was either one or two small boats that capsized. Hopefully, the death toll isn't going to climb any higher than's already been recorded.

CO: We're reporting that there are, at this point, 27 who perished, including 17 men, seven women, one of whom is pregnant and three children. That's from the Interior Minister of France. And so what... do you know anything about their nationalities?

SB: No, I don't, no.

CO: We have to are who are in hospital with hypothermia. They are... one's from Iraq, one's from Somalia is that what likely the others are as well.

SB: Um, there's obviously a lot of people in Calais. They do typically come from certain regions, so we see a lot of Iraqis, Libyans, Syrians from central Africa. Afghans now, of course. A lot of Afghans, a lot of Kurds, they may well be mixed up within the boat. So that's kind of one not really commenting until I actually know. But these are the people you would see represented there.

CO: We do know what the boat looked like, what's left of it. It was a rubber dinghy, now deflated, floating in the water. Sky News published a photo of that. And it's hard to imagine that a group of maybe more than 30 people with children were on that craft. How typical is that?

SB: That is very typical. And I think what we're seeing increasingly is large numbers of people on these boats. And sometimes, these boats look as if they've been purpose-built solely for crossing the channel. So maybe a year ago, we'd be looking at boats that have been stolen from marinas in Europe or even been bought. Now we're looking at boats that are… they're effectively just rafts. And I think this is something that's given us huge cause for concern because tragic as this event was, it's something we've been saying is an inevitability for months. Because people cross in majorly flimsy boats, eventually this was going to happen.

CO: And how often do you see people who actually make it to shore?

SB: Oh, regularly. I mean, 25,000 people have crossed this year.

CO: And what did they tell you? What is it like when you meet them? What are... what are their stories?

SB: I mean, obviously, we have people who've uprooted themselves completely from their lives to flee war and conflict and try and find some way, some place of safety where they've got some prospect of a future. And it's important to remember. It's not just strictly a place of safety. It's somewhere where life might be able to begin again. Yes, it's a long and arduous journey, which I think few of us could really imagine.

CO: And many of them were already in Calais. They were in France before they crossed. What were the conditions for them? Why did they not stay in Calais?

SB: The conditions in Calais are abominable. There's a deliberate program of repression conducted by the French authorities to break up any fragments of comfort people might need to find, destroy shelters, pick people up and drop them miles away from Calais, so they have to walk back, regular police patrols. So, life in Calais is deliberately made extraordinarily uncomfortable for people who are waiting to cross.

CO: And so I guess these are conditions that also make it very lucrative for the smugglers who want to put these people onto boats to cross the channel?

SB: Potentially, yeah. Although, this whole situation could be completely avoided if we had safe routes. That's what we're asking for, safe, legal routes for people to be at transit from where they're being oppressed into the U.K. asylum system. Or at the very least, from northern France. They shouldn't be having to pay people sums of money to cross this 26-mile stretch of water.

CO: And Prime Minister Boris Johnson said the French authorities should be doing more to stop the people crossing. What do you say to that?

SB: I'm not sure quite how the French authorities would… would stop people given the miles of coastline there are? There's actually less people transferring themselves from northern France to the U.K. then there have been in previous years. In previous years, people used to smuggle themselves on board lorries and then across on the ferries into lorries. Now, what the French government have done at the behest of the British government is effectively fortify the road network around Calais and make their way of crossing almost impossible. So that's kind of an enforcement effort that's been put in there, which has pushed people onto the route of coming across some boats, which is just, I think, simply far more visible. So we're not talking about increased numbers. Actually, numbers of asylum claims in the U.K. are down this year. We're talking about a much more visible route.

CO: You said a moment ago that you had anticipated this, that... that you were all bracing yourselves for this disaster, which is the largest single loss of life of one of these crossings that we've seen. So do you expect more of this?

SB: I think unless somebody budges, somebody sees common sense and creates safe passage, then I think we will. Yeah, inevitably.

CO: You say that the answer is to make it possible for people to get to the U.K. safely, but do you see any change in your government's attitude toward people trying to get to their shores? Is it possible that this disaster might change anything?

SB: Hopefully, I think if I was going to be very, very optimistic. I would hope that it provoke a reconsideration. However, what we're seeing is this kind of rhetoric trotted out about increased enforcement, which is going nowhere. It's impossible, and it's effectively utilizing these people as tools in a culture war. That's what... that's what we're seeing.

CO: What do you mean by that?

SB: It's an easy target to act tough on, to sound tough on, and that's what we're seeing from the government. It's not actually real solutions, but tough rhetoric aimed at pleasing a certain section of the domestic audience. And it's not really a practical solution.

CO: Simon, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

SB: Great stuff. Thanks very much.

CH: Simon Blunt is a volunteer with the aid group Channel Rescue. He was in Nottingham, England.

[Music: Ambient]

Lush Cosmetics No Social

Guest: Hilary Jones

CH: The cosmetics brand Lush is known for its multi-coloured bath bombs that fizz when you throw them in water, its range of uniquely named cruelty-free shower gels and its stores at the mall -- which you can often smell before you see. Maybe you connect with its philosophy and product line. But tomorrow, you'll have fewer ways to connect with the company itself. Lush has announced that it is deactivating its Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, and Snapchat pages across all 48 countries it operates in. Hilary Jones is the global ethics director for Lush. We reached her in Dorset, England.

CO: Hillary, why has Lush decided to quit these social media platforms, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok and Snapchat?

HILLARY JONES: It's been a long journey, us quitting, to be honest. It might seem sudden to others, but we've had our concerns for a long time. And we've tried to come off social before. We did for a while back in 2019. But obviously, then the pandemic hit, and everyone was sort of leaning quite heavily on... on social media to communicate. So we started posting again. But during lockdown, we also worked with a group called "I Am Whole" On the very first Digital Detox Day. What we found was that young people were joining in with us, and our customers and their followers were... were trying to join in on that Digital Detox Day. But actually, most of them failed. Lots of them failed. And we realized that there's this compulsion that young people can't switch off because they're afraid that everything else is on there and they're the only thing that isn't. So there was that worry of ours. And then, the Facebook files hit. You know, when you read that Facebook themselves have seen this harm and seen these problems, have investigated what it is that they're doing that causes that and have found solutions of what they need to do to stop that happening and to change and to make it more user friendly, but chose not to because they realized that those changes would mean less advertising revenue. And, you know, when you see that, you know, childhood suicide rates are up, it's causing massive mental health problems all fed by this constant stream.

CO: Yes, and just... and what you're referring to is what we have been covering. That this revelation from this whistleblower, Francis Haugen, who in her testimony in Washington, and she also released documents to show that Facebook was aware of the effect that Instagram was having on... on young girls, especially. But when you talk about this sort of social media detox that you took part in. I mean, yes, people, individuals do that because they just got to for their mental health. But as a business, don't you lose out? What does this do to your business?

HJ: We don't know. We'll have to see. But the point is that once you know those things, you can't just carry on. When you're inviting your young customers to meet you somewhere, you want to know that's safe. You know, we wouldn't open a shop in a dangerous area of town and expect our customers to come to that. And online is starting to feel like that. You know, social media is starting to feel like it's not a safe place for young people. And so, if we're on there, we're part of the problem, not part of the solution.

CO: But you are staying on Twitter, which can be very toxic, very vile at times. And you're also... also staying on YouTube, which has... is often accused of luring people into lots of QAnon conspiracies, white supremacy propaganda. We've seen some very vile things on YouTube and how it affects people and how it lures people in. So why stay on those platforms?

HJ: Yeah, no, we totally accept that. But, you know, what we're saying is that Facebook know the harms and have chosen not to change. Twitter, on the other hand, very publicly, I have said that they are putting a lot of effort and really boosting their teams and putting it centre of what they do, the ethics of... of their algorithms, which is obviously the algorithms are where the problem lies. So, you know, some of these organizations are catching up. You know, they're trying to put right the harms, but others aren't. And we're left in a situation where, you know, we are having to judge, and everyone's having to judge because it's so not transparent. You know, how these... it... it's unregulated. The whole internet and the whole of social media has run ahead of the regulators because it's such a... such a technical subject that all of us just think is a magic box of tricks. And we don't understand how it works, and therefore it hasn't been regulated in the way that other products are for the safety of their users.

CO: I just wanna go back to YouTube because they are... YouTube is aware of the algorithms and... and quite deliberately so knows what it does, knows who it draws in, and that they're taken to places where we see a lot of this hate. And so why stay on YouTube?

HJ: They're saying they're going to change. As I said, we're... we're poised to jump off all of them if we have to. We're waiting to see change. We're waiting to see regulation. But where the harm is proved, and the companies have proved that they're not willing to change, then... then there's no choice for us but to get off. So, you know, we're not saying we're perfect. We're not saying that we've got all the answers because we don't know the answers. But what we do know is that. We are desperately uncomfortable asking our customers to come on to some of these channels where we know that there's no desire at the centre of those companies to do anything about it.

CO: But I wonder how effective you think this can be? We... we saw about a year ago, really big corporations took part in a boycott of paid Facebook ads as part of the Stop Hate for Profit campaign, you might remember, but it's gone away, and Facebook hasn't met those demands at all. So what do you think you can really accomplish here?

HJ : I don't think we set out to... with this as a campaigning issue. We… we literally all looked at the Facebook files and, as a company felt that it was an ingredient we couldn't have in our mix anymore. And it was more that than... I mean, I don't think we're big enough to affect Facebook. It would be lovely if companies like us could come off and affect them. But I suspect they're too big for that. It's the regulators and its governments, and it's, you know, it's international bodies that need to get control of this. And all any of us can do is just choose how we use it ourselves. In the meanwhile, while we wait for our lawmakers to catch up?

CO: Hillary, we'll leave it there, and I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

HJ: OK, thank you.

CH: Hilary Jones is the global ethics director for the cosmetics company Lush. She's in Dorset, England.

[Music: Ambient]

Berlin WWII Friends

Guest: Betty Grebenschikoff

CH: This month, Betty Grebenschikoff and Ana Maria Wahrenberg finally saw each other in person again and gave each other a long-awaited hug. They hadn't only been apart since the pandemic started. They'd been apart since 1939. The two women, who are in their 90, were friends as children in Berlin. They were separated when their families fled the Nazis -- and never knew what happened to each other. Then the USC Shoah Foundation -- which gathers oral testimony from Holocaust survivors -- reconnected them. And this month, after talking on the phone several times, they finally reunited. We reached Betty Grebenschikoff in St. Petersburg, Florida.

CO: Betty, what was that moment like when you were able to wrap your arms around your friend and give her a hug after so many decades?

BETTY GREBENSCHIKOFF: It was quite unbelievable. It was unreal. It was such a wonderful feeling to have my friend from childhood right there with me. [chuckle] I mean, we've both changed tremendously, of course, but it was just so, so right for both of us. And we were both so happy, and I think it shows in some of the pictures that you have there.

CO: The photos are wonderful. The both of you... I... it's hard to believe that either of you is in her early 90s [BG chuckles] because you both look terrific.

BG: [chuckle] Thank you. Thank you.

CO: Now, you last saw your friend in 1939 in Berlin. Can you just take us back? What do you remember about the last time you spent time with your friend, Ana Maria?

BG: The very last time was when we said farewell to each other in the school playground. At that point, it wasn't safe for us to be out on the streets by ourselves. So our fathers brought us there, and we said goodbye to each other, and we hugged each other, and we cried. This was my best girlfriend, my... my one and only girlfriend that I had as a child. I think she felt the same way, and we both promised each other to stay in touch and get back together again and all. But I... I didn't happen for 80… [chuckle] 82 years.

CO: As Jews, as Jewish children in Berlin in the 1930s, you would have very limited ability, activities, which you could do so. How did... how would you play? How were you and Ana Maria able to have your friendship and do things together?

BG: For one thing, we went to the same school. We went to Jewish school together, and we always sat together, and then we would play at each other's homes because we couldn't go to playgrounds or swimming pools or anywhere else anymore. Jews were not allowed to go there. So we didn't understand that at the time. Her parents, as well as mine, tried to shield us from all the bad things that were going on. So we just played in each other's homes. And we thought that was just fine because we weren't used to running around outside anymore. So we just stayed with each other, and we managed even to get in trouble in each other's homes. [CO chuckles] Eating too much candy and, you know, playing tricks on our mothers and so on, you know? [chuckling]

CO: but... but you were aware of things like Kristallnacht and the horrors that were beginning in Germany for Jews?

BG: Crystal Night was the turning point for everyone, even for eight-year-olds. We were eight years old at the time. We knew things were terrible because my family and... and I, we sat on the floor in our apartment and switched off the lights, and we were told to be very quiet so the neighbours would think we were not home so they wouldn't denounce us to the mobs out there and saying, yeah, there are Jews over here. They could have come in and hurt us. As far Ana Maria was concerned, she was Ana Marie. Her father was taken away that day to a concentration camp, so her memories are very vivid of that also.

CO: Your family then knew you... you had to leave. And so, what happened to you? Where did you go?

BG Well, we realized after Crystal Night that things were bad for... really terrible, and it was probably going to get worse. So we had no papers. My father was born in Czechoslovakia, and he didn't have German papers or Czechoslovakian papers, so we were kind of in a grey zone there. We had no one in another country to sponsor us to emigrate. So then we heard that you could go to Shanghai if you could get yourself over there and get yourself out of Germany. You did not need a visa to go to Shanghai at that point.

CO: And what did you know about your friend Ana Maria, Ana Marie at that time? What did you know about where she and her family were?

BG: Nothing. I knew absolutely nothing. I wrote her a letter when I got to Shanghai, which I believe she still has. And I told her where I was and that we would stay in touch. But I never heard from her. I never heard another word. And just eventually figured that she might be dead because I did not know that they were able to get out. But every time I gave a talk to groups of children or schools or universities, I always mentioned her name. And, of course, I never heard another word until the Shoah came to the rescue of that.

CO: Right. And this is what they do. Well, one of the things they do. USC... USC Shoah Foundation, they're always raking through these testimonies, conversations, everything to... and they find these connections. And so, they put the two of you together, right?

BG: Well, not exactly. Because Ana Marie didn't give testimony to the Shoah. She was giving talks in South America and Chile. And this... this one researcher, Ita Gordon, she for some reason picked up a website where she heard this lady in Santiago talk about being in Berlin during Crystal Night, and she thought that sounded just familiar to something she had heard on my testimony. So she sat down, and she researched for quite a long time, and she pulled this together.

CO: How did you react when you were told that they may have found your friend, Ana Marie or Ana Maria?

BG: I didn't react at all because I was so stunned by it. I didn't know what to say. [chuckling] I just said, Oh, really? And then it sunk in that this was really my girlfriend. This was the one that I was always talking about. And then, of course, they put this Zoom program together with all of us, and I could see this was real, and it was just overwhelming.

CO: What have you learned about her family? Did they all get out safely?

BG: Well, she and her parents got out. I don't know about the others. I think some of them made it, some of them didn't. But she made a new life for herself in Chile, and I'm in a new life for myself... well, after... after China, in Australia and then America.

CO: And so, now you have this friendship back. And so, do you remember things together? Are lots of memories coming back as you talk?

BG: Yes, we talked about the old days, how when we were kids, what we did. I said I was very shy. But she said she was very shy. I don't remember that, but I remember that she was the only one that I was really happy with always in school. So we talked about what we... how we played and so which teachers we liked and which teachers we didn't like and... and the old things. And then we got into our lives after that. She also wrote a book, as I did. And we exchanged those by mail. It's amazing that we were both on the same path as we got older teaching, the Holocaust, particularly to children and to grown-ups as well, and explaining what happened there. That six million Jews really did perish in the Holocaust because people think that maybe that's overblown, but it isn't, as we know.

CO: But this must have been a very special friendship between two nine-year-old girls? What happens when you tell this story to... to other nine-year-old girls in the United States? How did they react?

BG: Well, I haven't had much of a chance since I... we found each other to speak because of COVID. But I'll tell you, the children, particularly children, from 10 to maybe 14-15, they really understand when I talk to them about feelings and how lonely things can be. But then when you have one good friend that you're very fortunate. And there was one little girl at one of my talks who said after I mentioned Ana Marie's name and I did not know at that time that she was alive. And she said, don't worry if you don't fund your Ana Marie. When you go to heaven, you'll find her there. And I thought that was such a sweet, sensitive thing to say for a little girl, don't you?

CO: Absolutely sweet. But I'm much happier to know that you have found your Ana Marie.

BG: [bright laughter] Yes, here on Earth. Absolutely.

CO: Yes. Betty, it's just delightful to speak with you. And what a great story. Thank you.

BG: Thank you so much. And thanks for calling me.

CO: Bye, Betty.

BG: Bye-bye.

CH: Betty Grebenschikoff saw her childhood friend from Berlin in person again this month, after eight decades. We reached her in St. Petersburg, Florida. And we've posted some pictures of Ms. Grebenschikoff and Ana Maria Wahrenberg on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Music box tune]

LR: Woody The Talking Tree

CH: Some people like to ask it questions. Others would like to axe it, no question. Yesterday, Carol talked to Tamitha Oakley, the general manager of the Mic Mac Mall in Dartmouth, who told us about the return of a seasonal attraction called "Woody". A towering Christmas tree that talks out of a big, rosy-cheeked face -- with lips that move when he speaks. And he uses those lips to talk, in real time, with kids at the mall. Keith Freeman was once one of those kids. He called Talkback to share his memory of Woody.

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[Sound: Our message machine beeps]

KEITH FREEMAN: Hi, there, my name is Keith Freeman, living in Vancouver, B.C. I was luckily enough to hear about your Woody talking Christmas tree. I moved to Vancouver probably about 15 years ago, mainly for the hiking, and the sushi, and the skiing. But I swear, I think I probably moved partly to get away from Woodie the talking Christmas tree. My God! That is one crazy tree. When you're a kid, you come up to that, it must be 30 feet tall. It looks at you, eyes are moving. You don't know where the voice is coming from. So I don't know, Woody’s back, I guess, to scare... to scare another generation of children. But I'm happy and safe on the West Coast right now, and far away from Woody.

CH: Thanks for calling, Keith. I… I’m… we’re sorry. Maybe you think Keith overreacted, or maybe you fully understand moving 4,500 kilometres to get away from Woody. If you're not sure, you see photos of Woody on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih. And if you have any thoughts about anything you hear on As It Happens, call Talkback at 416-205-5687 -- or find us on Twitter: @CBCAsItHappens.

[Music: Carnival]

Part 2: Taliban 100 Days, Australia Funnel Web Spider

Taliban 100 Days

Guest: Dominik Stillhart

CH: It has now been more than 100 days since NATO forces withdrew from Afghanistan -- relinquishing the country to Taliban control. But a top aid worker says, right now, another kind of withdrawal is more urgent: the withdrawal of financial, medical and humanitarian support. Without outside help, the Afghan economy has collapsed, sending millions of Afghans toward the brink of starvation. Dominik Stillhart is the operators director for the International Committee of the Red Cross. We reached him in Geneva.

CO: Mr. Stillhart, you have just returned from your trip to Afghanistan. What was the most striking about what you found there?

DOMINIK STILLHART: Well, what really hit me and disturbed me a lot is what I saw in Mirwais Hospital in Kandahar in the south of Afghanistan, where the admission of malnourished children has doubled since August. And in every single bed, there were malnourished children with anxious parents next to them, and that picture is really still in my head. And it's just... it's so sad to see that.

CO: Did... did you hear some of their stories? How... how they're coping? What is happening in their villages and homes?

DS: Well, basically, they are… they all say we are running out of resources. The economy in Afghanistan has shrunk by a staggering 40 per cent since August. These are the estimations. There is zero liquidity in the whole system. And people just don't have the money to put food on the plates of their families, let alone heat their homes. And, you know, this winter in Afghanistan is extremely harsh. The temperatures drop below freezing, and you can just imagine how hard that is for families and communities to... to survive in these conditions.

CO: Now, hospitals are the final receiving place of this crisis, right? Because you haven't got enough money, you haven't got enough food, you haven't got the medicine, you haven't got all these things. And eventually, you end up with your children or yourself in the hospital. So before we even get there, this crisis is just compounded by so many things. Who do you blame?

DS: Well, I think it is really a collective failure. And, as usual, you have many drivers of... of the crisis. You have a country that has seen nothing else than war, violence and conflict for four decades. The last few months before August were particularly violent. You have climate change that has led to a drought and a very bad harvest last year. And now, you have the international community that basically left in August, turned off the generator and threw the key away. And there is, therefore, really also a responsibility of the international community to continue supporting the provision of these essential services that are so badly required, especially right now.

CO: When you mention Kandahar, this was the centre of Canada's operations in the final years in Afghanistan. What do you say to Canada? What do you say to the Canadian government about its responsibility facing this winter, where we're going to see millions of people possibly starve to death if something is not done?

DS: Well, my message is, please do not let down the Afghans in what is perhaps one of the most difficult moments in their history. And please think about all the investments that you have done, especially in the south of Afghanistan. The soldiers that have died there, do... you know, now it is really important to help safeguarding some of that investment by channelling funds into the non-security sector to maintain these very basic services in health, education, where by the way, a majority of teachers are women and of course, also everything that has to do with water, sanitation and the municipal work.

CO: But what do you say to the world leaders and the donors who have pulled that support? They pulled it because they don't want to be seen legitimizing the Taliban?

DS: Yes, I do understand that there is a political legitimacy crisis, but can we really take the entire Afghan population hostage because of that political legitimacy crisis? There are solutions, and we have a blueprint for these type of solutions with the hospital support program that we've now started, whereby money is going directly into the hands of the 5,100 employees of these hospitals, directly to the hospital administrations for running costs, without being channelled through the ministries. So, there are solutions. What is required is a little bit less risk adversity, making sure that at least from a humanitarian point of view, we can avoid the looming disaster. And the disaster is going to be huge if there is no action right now.

CO: We have had this interview before. I don't mind telling you that... that we have spoken with others who've said exactly what you're saying over these weeks and months now. So why is no one listening?

DS: Well, that is why I'm so upset because it is not as if there wasn't a solution. The solution is there. And it's not just about funding agencies such as the International Committee of the Red Cross, and I'm really grateful to our donors for supporting us. The fact is that humanitarian aid alone is not going to save the Afghans. What is really necessary is a step further and recognize that the very health system that the international community has heavily invested over the past two decades needs to be saved, supported in order to deliver these essential services. And there are ways that you can channel money into that system without necessarily having to recognize the new leadership in... in Afghanistan.

CO: Mr. Stillhart, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

DS: Thank you very much.

CH: Dominik Stillhart is the operations director for the International Committee of the Red Cross. We reached him in Geneva.

[Music: International]

Ian Fishback Obit

CH: When U.S. Army Major Ian Fishback was serving in Iraq, he was horrified to see his fellow American soldiers routinely beating and abusing prisoners. He told his superiors. They did nothing. So he wrote to Republican Senators John Warner and John McCain -- who did something: they introduced anti-torture legislation. Ian Fishback died last week. He was 42. He went on to earn a master's degree in philosophy and political science, writing his thesis on the morality of war. After his death, his family issued a statement saying he had been living in an adult foster care facility -- and suffering from neurological damage or post-traumatic stress disorder as a result of his combat tours in Iraq and Afghanistan. In 2017, Ian Fishback was part of a panel on "the intersection of national security and human rights" at The Ford School for Public Policy at the University of Michigan.

SOUNDCLIP

IAN FISHBACK: Well, it might be an effective policy for an autocracy to institute a torture regime because an autocracy relies on terrorism of its own people to maintain order. If you use a mechanism like torture, it can actually enhance the stability of the regime. But if you're trying to instil a liberal regime, then you can't rely on those types of tactics to instil terror. You'll fail to achieve order in that manner, and you won't be able to achieve order in the manner in which the liberal institutions normally do, which is they have a credible promise of respecting human rights. Liberal regimes have the opportunity to... to issue a credible promise that they're going to respect those values, human rights, et cetera, and build those types of institutions. So, it's not a feasible long-term solution for us to use these terroristic methods. In the long run, we have to support human rights and the types of institutions that are going to undermine those types of seedbeds for international terrorism. The problem is, I think, people have a hard time understanding that you can't really beat someone into submission. I used to tell my cadets at West Point. I used to… the very first day of class, I look at them and say, so how many of you think that you can get someone to do your will through the use of force? And they'd all raise their hands. And I said, OK, now think about it in this way. If I punch you in the nose, what are you going to do? I punch you in the nose and tell you to do something, what are you going to do? And all of them respond, well, I'm going to punch you back. And I'd say, well, exactly. And actually, a lot of human rights rules are like that. There are not restrictions that undermine your military capability. They're an acknowledgement of the psychological pressures that exist in war and tend to exert themselves on soldiers and... and civilians on the battlefield and lead them to do stupid things that cause a lot of harm. And human rights are designed to prevent you from doing unnecessary harm. They're not designed to keep you from accomplishing your mission. Sometimes, there seems to be this tension between mission effectiveness and human rights. But in actuality, most of the time, that tension is false. It's just... it's just a chimera.

CH: Iraq War whistleblower Ian Fishback spoke at The Ford School in 2017. He died last week, at the age of 42.

[Music: Sombre instrumental]

Australia Funnel Web Spider

Guest: Jake Meney

CH: This month, the Australian Reptile Park received an anonymous gift. A gift that, if you or I opened it, would make us scream, slam the box shut, throw it into a hedge, run into the house, lock the door, run into the bathroom, lock that door, and collapse, weeping, in the bathtub. But a gift the park found wildly exciting. So much so that it put out a call for the mysterious donor to come forward. Jake Meney is a keeper at Australian Reptile Park. We reached him in Somersby, Australia.

CO Jake, what exactly was this nightmarish creature that arrived at the Australian Reptile Park?

JAKE MENEY: Yeah, so the arrival to the Reptile Park here was actually one of the largest funnel web spiders that we've ever seen, a very, very large female, quite scary.

CO: And you've dubbed it "Mega Spider". And described it as what nightmares are made of. Just describe it for us, if you would?

JM: Yeah. So, funnel web spiders are relatively common in our local area and throughout New South Wales. But this spider is probably about twice to three times the size of the normal funnel webs that we typically see. So it's a very large individual and quite formidable.

CO: And this is... this is an anonymous gift. If this was a horror movie or a thriller, when you get an anonymous package of this nature, it's a warning of some kind that this a message [chuckling]. But you were actually solicited this. You wanted someone to send you this spider, right?

JM: Yeah. So, here at the Australian Reptile Park, we actually collect funnel web spiders in order to milk their venom for the production of the anti-venom. So, the majority of our funnel web spiders within our collection actually come to us from members of the public donating them to us.

CO: [chuckling] OK, so somebody captured this creature? And how did they get it to you?

JM: Yeah. [laughing] So, they... they actually managed to catch it up and get it into a small plastic container. And then, it was carefully delivered to us. And, yeah, we've since moved it into a larger enclosure, and it's living here now amongst probably another 200 or 300 of its friends. We have a very large collection of funnel webs here.

CO: OK, you got an eight-centimetre-long deadly spider that arrived in a Tupperware container, basically?

JM: [chuckling] Yes, exactly. Yes.

CO: How does one go about catching one of these things?

JM: [laughing] Well, the obvious answer is very carefully. But they do have to basically just kind of scoop the spider into the jar. Whilst these funnel web spiders that we work with are so dangerous and potentially quite large like this individual, they're actually quite a slow spider, and they can't jump, and they can't climb. So it is actually quite easy to encourage one into a Tupperware and get it to us here.

CO: And how deadly is this spider?

JM: Certainly the most deadly spider in Australia. Here in Australia, we've only ever had two spiders which have caused deaths in humans. And the funnel web spider certainly is one of those prior to the anti-venom being available, and it became available about 40 or so years ago. There was quite a number of funnel web spider deaths.

CO: And you make the anti-venom from the milk. You have to milk this thing. What do you... how do you milk it for its venom?

JM: Yeah. [chuckling] So, we basically encourage the spider to get defensive, and it will basically almost stand up and raise its front legs and expose its fangs. And then they're actually so grumpy that they'll begin to produce venom just on the tip of the fang that we can visibly... visibly see the drops, and then we will go along with a small glass pipette and move those drops of venom into the pipette. And then we've... we've collected it safely, and then the spider will go away and... and we will give it a feed. But that venom that we collect, we then send away, and then the process of the anti-venom production begins.

CO: All right, everyone who's listening to this, including the people I'm with right now, are just going crazy, cringing at the thought of this thing. [JM chuckles] And they don't know that the... what you know, [chuckle] which is that these fangs, how big are these fangs that you are milking?

JM: Yeah, the fangs on this particular one are about two centimetres long. Typically, the funnel web spider fangs are about one centimetre long. So even on an average-sized one, the fangs are very, very large and scary.

CO: [chuckle] Yeah, right. And so, what do you now do with that milk that you got from the fangs?

JM: Yes. The venom that we collect, we send it to... it to another state in Australia, and then they will take that venom that we've supplied, and they will actually inject a very, very tiny amount of it into a rabbit. And the rabbit isn't overly affected by the venom. But what it does is it actually starts to slowly produce antibodies within its body. And then they will actually draw some blood from the the rabbit and separate out those antibodies, and they'll process those antibodies into a form, a drug that can be given to... to humans if they're bitten by a funnel web.

CO: how often, say, in a year, would you need to use that anti-venom in Australia?

JM: Yeah. So I mentioned before that the funnel web spiders are quite common, particularly along the East Coast, which is our most populated region of Australia. So each year, we might see between 20 and 30 funnel web spider bites. Many of those would have proven fatal without the... the anti-venom. In fact, if you're bitten by a male funnel web spider, which is the more toxic of the two, it's almost a 100 per cent fatality rate without the anti-venom being administered. So it is very, very important to save lives.

CO: So whoever delivered the spider to you, this mega spider, anonymously, that... that person may have saved some lives, probably saved some lives?

JM: Yeah. Yeah, correct. Any... anyone that donates a spider to us is directly contributing to that anti-venom program, and we've been involved with that right from the very beginning. So, over 40 years now, we've been milking this on web spiders here at the Australian Reptile Park.

CO: Well, they may save the life of somebody who's trying to catch a mega spider with a Tupperware container. It's very useful! [both laugh]

JM: Yes, potentially.

CO: [chuckle] And would... you have put out a call for the mysterious donor, the anonymous collector, so any luck there?

JM: Yeah, we have actually... we have actually had them reach out, and we now know where the spider comes from. And, yeah, we're able to... to thank them for that donation. So it's a very wanted addition to the venom program.

CO: And they lived to tell you that they were the ones who had collected the spider?

JM: [laughing] Yes, correct. Fortunately.

CO: Jake, it's good to talk to you. Thanks.

JM: Likewise. Thank you.

CO: [chuckle] Bye.

CH: Jake Meney is the reptiles supervisor at Australian Reptile Park in Somersby, Australia. That's where we reached him. You can find more on that story on our webpage, at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: international]

Soul Train Record

CH: It's 1976. You've had a long day at work. You're ready to hit the couch and veg out in front of the TV.

SOUNDCLIP

[A tube TV warms up and switches channels]

CH: Ughh... nothing's on. Just the same old boring reruns and terrible game shows. But then, you find it -- and suddenly you're transported to the world's greatest dance party.

SOUNDCLIP

[Music: “Soul Train” theme song]

ANNOUNCER: Soul Train, the hippest trip in America! Sixty non-stop minutes…

[fades down]

CH: A clip of the opening theme from "Soul Train." The syndicated TV show ran from 1971 to 2006. And it featured a who's who of R&B, funk, and soul. CH: On any given episode, the show would feature musicians like Curtis Mayfield, Tina Turner, Patti LaBelle, and Earth, Wind, and Fire -- just to name a very few. People may have tuned in to hear the stars perform. But they stayed tuned in to watch the in-studio dancers who shimmied and shook non-stop throughout the 60-minute episodes. On Sunday, a similar scene unfolded in Marcus Garvey Park in Harlem, New York. Ahead of BET's Soul Train Awards show, hundreds of people gathered to dance, and attempt to break the world record for longest soul train line. Dancers from the original TV show, and members of the 40-plus Double Dutch Club, joined local residents and officially broke the record -- forming a soul train line that was 536 dancers strong.

[Music: Electronic]

Part 3: Reimagining Sir John A. Macdonald Statue, Estate Sale Find

Owl Saviour

CH: You may have heard that the collective noun for crows is a "murder" -- as in, "that murder of crows just stole my pizza". But you may not know that a crowd of their cousins has an almost equally sinister title. A group of ravens is known as an "unkindness". And there may be some good reasons for that. Exhibit A: last week, Billy Gauthier was out kayaking in Labrador when saw a huge snowy owl set upon by an unkindess of ravens. A particularly unkind unkindness at that. It was not looking good for the owl -- until Billy countered with some timely kindness.

SOUNDCLIP

BILLY GAUTHIER: He landed up ahead of us in a tree. And as he landed, there was a few ravens that came over and started dive-bombing him in the tree. And the owl took off again. And eventually, the owl, I guess, was pushed down so close to the water that it fell in. From the tip of the head to the... to the tail was probably, I'm guessing close to two feet long. And the wingspan was huge. I mean, I really couldn't even tell you what the wingspan was. It was so beautiful looking. But yet, I was thinking this poor animal is not even struggling. She's going to... she's going to drown. So as we got close enough, I thought maybe I could lift it up slightly with my paddle, so I put my paddle underneath her and started lifting up. Then she got a little nervous, I think. And her... her wings stretched out. You could see she was... she was quite nervous, but she couldn't fly away. So I brought her back down into the water and just slowly edged her towards the bow of my boat. And she just then grabbed a hold of the grab lines and hauled herself onto the bow of my kayak, and she stayed there. And I thought, OK, well, she's going to fly off within a minute or two. But, of course, she was completely, like, waterlogged. Her wings were just totally saturated. So she just sat there in front of me for about 15 minutes, and we just kept making eye contact. And I'll never forget those incredible yellow eyes staring right at me. It was unbelievable. Man, I'll just... I'll never forget those eyes. The eyes are the most incredible thing on that bird. And it's just amazing to watch her moving around her head. Like, it was so robotic. Yeah, and she'd spin it almost 360, like a full 360. It was… it was incredible. So I think she did realize that we were there to help rescue her, not to harm her in any way.

CH: Billy Gauthier of Happy Valley-Goose Bay speaking with Gavin Simms on The St. John's Morning Show.

[Music: Elevator]

Reimagining Sir John A. Macdonald Statue

Guest: Patrick Reid Stewart

CH: By now, the scene has been replicated over and over in cities all over: a statue of a historical figure, toppled because of the legacy of the person it depicts.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: Cheering and a chant of “abolish the police”. The cheering intensifies as a loud thud rings out]

CH: From August of 2020, that's the sound of Montreal protestors pulling down a statue of John A. Macdonald -- father of Confederation and of the country's residential school system. In the months since that demonstration, the platform where the first Canadian Prime Minister's statue once stood has remained empty. But last week, the Canadian Centre for Architecture invited students to share their visions for the pedestal. Now, the Centre has announced a winning entry. Patrick Reid Stewart is a Nisga'a architect and was one of the jurors who picked the new design. We reached him in West Vancouver.

CO: Patrick, first of all, do you want to describe this space where the statue of John A. MacDonald stood for 126 years before it got pulled down? What's the actual... the canvas that these competitors were working with?

PATRICK REID STEWART: Well, that's a good question. It was on a quite high plinth. And he stood in between a colonnade of I don't know how many columns. And had plaques around the base of it. And he stood upon, like, a granite block above the plinth of the statue. And people that decided that he didn't... they didn't want to see him anymore pulled him down. And that's what they pulled down.

CO: Right. So they put that down. So that plinth has been empty. It's just... it's quite a grand stage that he was standing on there in this beautiful square that's around that plinth. And so the idea was for architects to reimagine what that space should be, what that should say. And so just tell us about what those students who came up with ideas, what was the winning contribution?

PRS: Well, the winning submission was an orange swing. Basically, that’s sat not on the plinth but off the plinth, but gave you a perspective so you could sit there and look back at it. And it was orange because they wanted to reference the Indigenous children that didn't come home from residential schools. And it references, you know, Orange Shirt Day that is now an event across the country in memoriam.

CO: And so this swing that’s there facing... the person who sits in this swing looks at that empty plinth. What's the story that those who designed it want to tell with that?

PRS: It's a space for reflection, for remembrance. And that can be taken so many different ways, right? Because the statue was of John A. MacDonald, who, you know, in current eyes right now is not being looked upon very favourably. But I think people didn't like the idea that he's standing up there, you know, sort of quote-unquote lording it over people that are walking by. So they just wanted to remove him.

CO: But it's not just that he's gone, it's this... put this swing that's there for someone to sit and reflect looking at this empty place where John A MacDonald once stood, right?

PRS: Yes, right. And these are temporary installations. So the idea is that there were 18 submissions, and, you know, the installations could be changed out because there were other entries.

CO: Yeah, this… so there were these other shortlisted... this was... we're talking with the winner here. There were others that were shortlisted on that runners up. And so, what were the stories? Tell us the story is that those installations would tell? Maybe some of the ones that really stood out for you?

PRS: Well, there was one again talking about what is it that you... what is it that you see? What do you think about when you see that empty plinth? And then we had one honourable mention, and it was titled “I Own You”. And all these installations, all these submissions, were attempting to make the viewer think, You know, what is this space now? And who was this? You know, who… who got taken down? You know, you're thinking about the things that he did. And, you know, it... it makes people think like, why was this there in the first place, right? So, I mean, that's what the statue really does. It tries to provide, I guess, a bonding with the viewer, right? So, John A. MacDonald standing up there saying how grand he is and so, you know, when I saw the empty plinth, it's like, what does that mean to see that, you know? The monument’s been removed. And what are people saying about that? You know, what are they saying about the country? You know, they're looking at the country as a colonial construction and wanting to have a say about that.

CO: It was not... this was not an official competition for redesigning that space. It was something that... that architecture students were doing in order to reimagine it. Do you think it's possible the city of Montreal will allow for that? Will actually have, as you say, a rotating exhibition of these ideas?

PRS: Well, [chuckling] that's a very good question because maybe that's a potential next step, talking to the city and saying, what about this space? And this was a Canadian Centre for Architecture student competition. And, you know, there was a thought that, you know, we should take it to the next step. And, you know, that's going to take some dollars. So, you know, we have to find funding. So it'd be amazing if we could actually have them all built and have them in place on a rotating system. And, you know, that just keeps the conversation going, and it keeps it current, right? So the conversation about what to do about the statue and what to do about the legacy of John A. MacDonald in this country?

CO: Well, there's... will be a lot of conversations to be had if these… these installations were actually in that square. They're really quite provocative, aren't they? And --

PRS: That's true.

CO: Patrick, it's good to talk to you. Thank you.

PRS: Appreciate your time. Thank you.

CO: Bye.

PRS: Bye-bye.

CH: Patrick Reid Stewart is a Nisga'a architect and one of the jurors for a competition to reimagine the spot where a John A. Macdonald statue once stood in Montreal. We reached him in West Vancouver.

[Music: Banjo!!!]

Nunavut Water Problems

CH: The city of Iqaluit isn't the only place in Nunavut with water problems. Clyde River's water treatment plant broke down nearly two weeks ago. Ever since, the community of about 1,000 people has been getting its water directly from a river -- and then boiling it. And the hamlet of Grise Fiord -- the northernmost community in Canada -- is having to conserve its water after one of two water tanks started leaking. Daryl Dibblee, the hamlet's senior administrative officer, says the problem appears to be shifting permafrost.

SOUNDCLIP

DARYL DIBBLEE: We are conserving the water. We're... we're... we're on the radio on a continuous basis as well as Facebook. We, as I say, we are measuring the level of usage every second day. And we work with community government services to… to ensure that those levels are... right now, we have what we projected is that with the usage that we're doing now, we will have enough water to maintain the community until mid-July, 1st of August. And at that point, that's when... when the tanks would refill anyway. And we... and the repair will be done. We're looking at... we're doing the assessment on the other tank that's... that's not... that has the leak now, and then the repair will be done as soon as the spring can be done.

CINDY ALORUT: How does the community of Grise Fiord feel about this conserving water for the whole winter?

DD: We're concerned. We've had that discussion with government as to it's one thing to conserve water for a short period of time. It's another thing to conserve water for... for 10-11 months. We are looking at some other options of reverse osmosis, to put a reverse osmosis machine in here that... in case we need to... need to supplement the tank that's there. But there's no question it's a concern. And the community is aware of it and have been excellent in the way we've been conserving water. But you're correct, it's 11 months or 10 months is a long time to be conserving water.

CH: That was Daryl Dibblee speaking with Qulliq host Cindy Alorut about how the hamlet of Grise Fiord is relying on just one water tank this winter.

[Music: Ambient]

Atwood On A Stamp

CH: Over a 60-plus year career, Margaret Atwood has put her personal stamp on Canadian literature. Now, she can put her personal stamp on a postcard. Ms. Atwood is getting her own official Canada Post stamp. And at today's ceremony unveiling the design, the 82-year-old writer took the opportunity to remind the audience that, despite this commemoration of her life and work, she is, in fact, still alive.

SOUNDCLIP

MARGARET ATWOOD: Being on a stamp is an unexpected honour. So unexpected that it has already caused a rush of stamp envy in my peer group. [crowd laughs] Indeed, the first phone call I received on the subject was from a friend of my age, 1,002, who exclaimed with a shocked horror that was only partly jocular. But you're not even dead yet. [more laughing] To which the only possible reply is: how can you tell? [Man, this audience loves this!] I could have said lots of people have stamps without being dead. Olympic athletes, cartoonists, Buffy Sainte-Marie, the Queen. But this protest would have been to no avail. My lack of deadness is just the latest outrage perpetrated on the right-thinking Canadian public. And of course, there will be a price to pay. On a stamp, really?! The nerve! How ever will I live it down? My country is very good at sticking pins into heads it deems to have become too swelled up. Be prepared for a bunch of jokes about licking and sticking. [audience found that very funny] Not to mention cancellation. [more laughter] And especially not to mention philately, but we won't go there. You may not know what that word means, but it has a suspicious ring to it. [lots of laughing] She’s a philatelist, it will be whispered. I always thought there was something funny going on there.

[,sc]

CH: Margaret Atwood, speaking at a ceremony unveiling the design of a new commemorative stamp in her honour today. Oh, and a philatelist is one who collects or studies stamps. In case it seemed like she might really be pushing the envelope there.

[Music: bright piano]

Estate Sale Find

Guest: Anthony Crichton-Stuart

CH: One day five years ago, someone was sifting through furniture, books and clothing at an estate sale in Massachusetts. He found a drawing of a woman holding a baby, and he bought it for 30 dollars U.S. Now, just a caveat that it's not always the case that, when you buy an old drawing for a pittance, it turns out to be worth tens of millions of dollars. But it is in this case. Because that is by Albrecht Dürer, the man Encyclopedia Britannica calls "the greatest German Renaissance artist." The 500-year-old Dürer drawing now belongs to the Agnews art gallery in London, where it's on display. Anthony Crichton-Stuart is the director of the gallery. That's where we've reached him.

CO: Anthony, what's it like to actually look at this drawing, this work on paper, and know what it really is?

ANTHONY CRICHTON-STUART: It's enormously exciting, and it is also the fruits of a considerable amount of research. So, we feel justified in presenting it as it is, for what it is. And it's, as I say, enormously exciting. It's a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.

CO: Can you just describe... this is the... this work on paper is called The Virgin and Child With a Flower on a Grassy Bank. Can you tell us what it looks like?

ACS: What you have is, I mean, the paper has been trimmed from a... from an earlier date. So it's a square... it's effectively a square image. And you have the virgin and child sitting on a grassy bench. And the virgin is wearing a rather beautiful gown, which clearly has fur trimming around the bottom of the edges. There's the Albrecht Dürer monogram in the centre lower level. And she is holding the Christ child who is standing on her lap, and it's a remarkably naturalistic, realistic depiction of a mother and child because the Christ child has his back to us. But he has holding in his left proper hand some flowers that he's plucked from the grassy bench. And she's looking with her head slightly cocked to one side, smiling. It's a very moving devotional but also a naturalistic piece of drawing.

CO: It really is beautiful. It could be any mother and child. And yet, it's... it's... it's... it's Mary and the Christ child. So that's the significance of it. It's very powerful, isn't it?

ACS: That's correct.

CO: Now, this... this turned up in a house sale in 2016 and with a price tag of $30. Who was selling it? Tell us about who has had this drawing for all those years?

ACS: So what we know is that around 1919, it was purchased by Maison Carlhian. Now, Maison Carlhian, their specialty was in supplying lavish interiors to America's super-rich during the Gilded Age, decorative art dealers, the decorative art dealers of the highest quality. So it then goes by descent to Andre Carlhian. And then, sometime after 1939, it goes by descent to his son, Jean-Paul Carlhain, who lived in Concord, Massachusetts, and died in 2012. Then in 2017, it was spotted by a Massachusetts picker. A picker is a dealer at a shop who goes around and just finds things and sells them, finds and sells. And that's the nature of their business. And he bought it at an estate yard sale from the Carlhian family. And he didn't really know what it was. I mean, he didn't know whether it was a reproduction, a print, but he liked it. He'd noticed the A.D. monogram. And he and he most of all liked it for his frame, which appeared... there was a frame, which appeared to go with it.

CO: Wow! And he paid... and he paid $30 for it.

ACS: [chuckling] Apparently so, yes.

CO: Now, but the family... the family... the family was selling at this yard sale. This... this is... you're describing a family that... people who should know the value of such a work. Did they not know what they had in their hands?

ACS: I mean, you would be surprised at how often in families, well-to-do families, families of collectors, you know, things do lose their attributions and they suddenly become misunderstood. It's not uncommon. It's happened in many of the great country houses in this country, in the U.K. And, you know, sometimes things just get... attributions get lost, and people lose sight of what it is they have. In this case, it had been rather than dressed up. It had a mount that was meant to look like an 18th-century mount. And they had put additions on the drawing, which gave it a rather sort of… I'm trying not to use the word false. But it gave it a reading that was not correct for what it is. And I think that probably aided in it being misunderstood.

CO: So the work itself now is identified as a legitimate, a real Albrecht Dürer. Based on principle, you mentioned the monogram that is found and a watermark. Those are the two key things, right?

ACS: That's correct. Dürer was incredibly conscientious about his paper, where it came from, both for his drawings and for his engravings. And there are some €200 drawings which have this watermark. And then the other thing was that the A.D. monogram turned out to be exactly the same ink as the ink that was used for the rest of the drawing. So armed with that, which proved a lot, but not everything, we then took the drawing to Dr. Christoph Metzger, who's the chief curator at the Albertina Museum in Vienna. He looked at it. We took it to him so he could see it in the original. And he said, yes, this is absolutely by the artist. Quite remarkable that this has materialized from nowhere. It's fabulous quality it. It's a Dürer.

CO: And what do you think it's worth?

ACS: [chuckle] So, we've had to sort of look at a range. The highest price now for an old master drawing at auction is for two works, independent works, by Rafael: Head of Muse and Head of an Apostle. They both made -- in 2009, 2012 -- around 29 million pounds each, which is about $48 million.

CO: So you think it's worth... what's been reported is it's probably worth about $50 million.

ACS: Well, I mean, look, yes, because people love to guess. I mean, what I would say to you is willing buyer, willing seller. We know that we have something on consignment of enormous importance, something which is probably never going to come up again or almost certainly never going to come up again. And it's by an artist who is one of the most important artists of the whole Renaissance, not just the northern Renaissance. All of the Renaissance.

CO: Well, I guess in general, a bit more than $30?

ACS: I would say yes, definitely. [both chuckle]

CO: OK, well, it's a fascinating story, and I appreciate you telling it to us, Anthony. Thank you.

ACS: You're very welcome. Thank you so much.

CH: Anthony Crichton-Stuart is the director of the Agnews gallery. He was in London.

[Music: Folk]

Q/UQ: Jesus Christ Superstar Insurrection

CH: And now, Quote/Unquote.

[Music: “Quote/Unquote Theme]

CH: Next week, a travelling 50th-anniversary production of Andrew Lloyd Webber's Jesus Christ Superstar will roll into Toronto. But it looks like one cast member won't be making the trip. On Tuesday, actor James Beeks was arrested for his alleged role in the January 6th U.S. Capitol attack. Mr. Beeks plays Judas -- who, in case you forgot, is the disciple who betrayed Jesus, and whose name is synonymous with treason. Not surprisingly, Mr. Beeks had a more forgiving view of his character. As he told the website, "Equality 365", quote, "[Judas] was a human, and he had to make choices. Technically, Judas should be celebrated instead of booed. I fell in love with the character and feel he has been given a bad turn." Unquote. Speaking of bad turns, after some digging, prosecutors discovered the 49-year-old is a paying member of the far-right extremist group, the Oath Keepers. And FBI agents found that, to finance such causes, Mr. Beeks also moonlights as a moon-walking Michael Jackson impersonator. His YouTube page describes him as, quote, "one of the top Michael Jackson tribute artists in the United States." Unquote. According to the Washington Post, it was the Michael Jackson "BAD" album tour jacket Mr. Beeks decided to wear that fateful day at the Capitol that helped prosecutors identify him in photo and video evidence. A bad BAD, BAD turn, indeed.

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November 25, 2021 Episode Transcript

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