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The AIH Transcript For November 15, 2021

[hosts]Carol Off, Chris Howden[/hosts]

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

SAMIRA MOHYEDDIN: Good evening, I'm Samira Mohyeddin, sitting in for Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[music: theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

CO: Clouds with no silver lining. After living through a firestorm last summer, the interior of B.C. is now being hit with torrential rain.

CH: We'll talk to one of thousands of people forced to hit the road and leave the city of Merritt -- and to another who's been forced to hit the brakes, after a highway was cut off by mudslides.

CO: Rewriting history. An Indian environmentalist reacts to her country's last-minute change to the COP26 deal -- which replaced a commitment to "phase out" coal with one to "phase [it] down" instead.

CH: Inviting criticism. As the EU announces new sanctions against Belarus, Finland's minister of foreign affairs says that if President Lukashenko is going to encourage migrants to come to his country, he has to take care of them.

CO: He came, he sawed, he got conquered. A scientist with the U.S. Forest Service tells us how tree DNA evidence was used to send the leader of an illegal logging operation to prison.

CH: And... it's all about who you don't know. Most of us believe it's awkward to talk about something important with a stranger. But new research suggests we don't know what we're talking about.

CH: As It Happens, the Monday edition. Radio that prefers to do friend things, but stranger things have happened.

[music: theme]

Part 1: B.C. Mudslides Trapped And Merritt Evacuation, Tree DNA Evidence

B.C. Mudslides Trapped

Guest: Julia Murray

CH: Last summer, many parts of B.C. were tested by fire. Now, parts of the province are facing a trial by water. Water -- torrents of it -- is forcing evacuations and trapping people in parts of British Columbia. As we went to air, about 275 people, including 50 children, were still trapped in their cars on a stretch of highway a hundred kilometres east of Vancouver. The highway was cut off by mudslides last night. Julia Murray is one of those people. We reached her earlier today in her car on Highway 7.

CO: Julia, I know you have spent the night where you are, and you are just... it's now light out. You can see what's around you. Can you describe it for us?

JULIA MURRAY: Yeah. So there is a lot of cars parked on Highway 7 here. I can see some waterfalls to our left. And then to our right, we can see the swamp and the river where a couple of cars actually got swept into. Luckily, the people were already rescued. Then there's a mountainside beside us, and this landslide is right behind us. We're facing Hope. [chuckle]

CO: OK, so [chuckle] you're facing Hope, which is... I hope... hope, that's the case.

JM: Yeah!

CO: And so you were at the beginning, at the front, and part of there's two landslides, right? One in front, one behind. So you're closer to the front part of it?

JM: Yeah. So we were on our way towards Vancouver, but I think a traffic control person who happened to get stuck on this side directed us to come and park facing Hope and up close to the median that blocks us from the swamp and whatnot, and just to kind of stay parked and close together.

CO: When you say that the people were rescued, did... what did you see of that? The ones whose cars got swept over, what happened with them and what did you see and hear from them?

JM: So I think there was about three vehicles that got swept in. I only... I saw about six search and rescue people who had to physically climb down with all of their spotlights, and they had a big spotlight on shining over the swamp. And I could hear the people last night yelling for help, just like help, so they could hear where they were. And then, about an hour later, I think they had managed to get them all out. I don't know if everyone is OK, though?

CO: Are you worried at all where the road... where you are sitting, is it safe? Is there any possibility that that is an insecure roadway as well?

JM: Yeah. So I'm not entirely sure. We did get moved down to lower down the mountain because there were two pretty heavy waterfalls that they said was a possible danger to us. So they moved us down closer to the slide. We're kind of in front of a rock hill. But at this point, you know, like we lost sleep last night because obviously there... you never know. There could have been another slide. We had to kind of be half-awake, and they told us to just be alert. [chuckle]

CO: When you talk about waterfalls, these are waterfalls that are not supposed to be there, right?

JM: Yeah, no. They're just probably not supposed to be there. They're probably supposed to be streams. [chuckle]

CO: Oh dear! And is it still raining?

JM: Yeah, it's raining. Probably just as hard as it was last night. Maybe a tiny bit better.

CO: Can we just go back to last night? When did you realize that there is something bad happening?

JM: So basically, I think we got stopped at 7:30, and then we waited about a half-hour, and the car started going forward a little bit. And once we got to the bottom, a traffic control person basically said there was another slide. You should turn around and go back to Hope. So we tried to turn around and go back to Hope, and then everyone was stopped as well because a second slide had hit us basically the same time. B asically, no way out for us. So there's a mountain beside us Essentially, we're surrounded by water and two slides and a huge mountain. So, it's becoming a really long day, especially for people that don't have water or food.

CO: And what do you have in the way of supplies?

JM: We just have a little bit of food, we have some juice, and we're just filling our water up on the roof right now, as are a lot of other people.

CO: Like with rainwater?

JM: Yeah, just rainwater. Yeah.

CO: Going through this night, you say this... this has been a pretty awful 12 hours for you. What was the... what were the worst parts of it during the night for you?

JM: Honestly, probably just when the rain was getting a lot harder, and we... I was just hearing noises outside, especially when they were trying to rescue the people and kind of jolting away, feeling like there was going to be a slide that was going to take us out, too. It was not a nice feeling. I was… I was pretty anxious all night long.

CO: It seems inevitable, though, to you that you're going to be leaving your car behind and getting out, right? If you get out by some kind of a lift?

JM: Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, the... both of the slides looked so, so deep and long. Like, we actually got stuck in the slide that was on the Highway 5. And I think it was at 11 a.m. And we had to go all the way around from that one, and that one was not nearly as bad as this one. This one is like so much longer, so much more road space is gone.

CO: Other reports are that there are people with babies with children in that group. Are you seeing... have you been able to talk to others to see what the situation is for other people in other cars?

JM: mostly just people who are in front of us and behind us. We just kind of briefly are just like, have you heard any updates? Or how are you doing? And everyone seems to be doing OK. I haven't seen any children or babies because we're way at the bottom. Everyone is mostly at the top, which is where it's a little bit more dangerous. So I'm not sure. There's just way too many cars for us all to be down at the bottom here.

CO: What are you hearing from rescue officials? What sense do you have of when you'll be rescued?

JM: Nothing. Nothing. Nobody knows anything up here. It's kind of a mystery to us, and it's... we're starting to get really antsy, which is why we're reaching out to everyone to find out information for us or if there's going to be somebody that comes and gets us out of here slowly.

CO: And you're still getting that pounding rain?

JM: Yeah, it's not going to go away, I don't think.

CO: Are you thinking about how it's going to feel when you get out of this?

JM: Oh, it's going to be feeling really nice. I just want to get home. [both chuckle]

CO: When you think about getting home, what's…. what do you... what image do you have?

JM: I am probably going to have a nice warm shower or something. [both chuckle] Because it's pretty chilly out here, especially when we have to hop out of the car and use the washroom or something.

CO Julia, I hope that you get rescued soon. And… but you sound like you're keeping your spirits up. You sound tired, but I think you are.

JM: Yeah, I didn't get a lot of sleep. Yeah, so we're facing towards Hope right now. And I... honestly, we don't know what's going to happen. So we're just hoping... hoping we hear some news soon and some positive feedback from authorities.

CO: Well, Julia, I hope it all works out. Thank you very much.

JM: Thank you.

CO: Bye.

JM: Have a good day. Bye.

CH: Julia Murray is one of 275 people trapped on a B.C. highway because of mudslides. We reached her earlier today.

[Cold in to new story]

Merritt Evacuation

Guest: Theresa Fournier

CH: After our interview, officials announced that military helicopters have begun a rescue effort -- airlifting stuck motorists to safety. And you can find more on this story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih. Just north of that mudslide, in the province's southern interior, the town of Merritt ordered a full-scale evacuation, after floodwater poured into neighbourhoods and shut down the sewage treatment plant. The city's 7,000-plus residents have been forced to hit the road, mostly finding places to stay in Kamloops and Kelowna, B.C. Theresa Fournier and her family were ordered to leave Merritt this morning. We reached her in Kamloops, BC.

CO: Theresa, how does it feel to finally be high and dry and safe?

THERESA FOURNIER: It's good! We are hanging out here at the mall, waiting for our hotel room to be available. There is quite a process to getting the support put in place, so we just went ahead and booked a hotel on our own.

CO: OK. You got a rude awakening this morning, though, didn't you?

TF: Yes. We knew that the storm was coming, but we didn't have any idea that it would be so bad. Four a.m., the cops were at our door asking us to pack our things to leave.

CO: So the 4:00 a.m. call from the police, what did you... what was it like at that point? What did you know about the water levels at that point?

TF: We didn't really know anything. The cop just said the water's approaching. Get your stuff. And so, of course, we got on the internet, and that's when we saw how bad it was. It's one street away from our home currently. The bridge by our home is completely taken out. There... we had to try three different routes to leave because they were all flooded. But we did make it out.

CO: And there are three bridges out, right? So two bridges were already gone. And so, there's only one bridge that people in Merritt could leave by?

TF: That's right.

CO: Wow! And so just describe... because by the time you were sort of just getting out, it was getting light. What did you see? What did it look like?

TF: Yeah, there was a rushing water over the edge of the river in multiple spots, and the river was so treacherous-looking that the current from it was basically jumping five feet, 10 feet out of the air on its way by.

CO: And we're talking about your street here?

TF: Yes, we are in the Collettville side of that. So the river runs quite close to our community. So, yes, all the roads that we typically take out of town were blocked. So we had to go up behind the community and through the mountains by the clean energy plant. And once we got up onto the hill over there, then you could really see how much the river was coming into the town, making its own path. It's terrifying.

CO: And what... what were you able to pack up and take with you?

TF: Just the basics, like clothing for a few days, a playpen for the baby, the dog food. That's about it.

CO: OK, [chuckle] so you've given me a hint as to my next question: who are... who's we? Who are you taking with you?

TF: So I have me, my husband and three of our daughters and our dog.

CO: How old are the kids?

TF: 13, 11, four and one.

CO: Oh gosh! And how are they feeling about all this?

TF: I'm trying to keep it together, so they don't get so upset. They seem to be handling it OK. You know, just keep reassuring them that they're safe and we'll be able to go back eventually.

CO: When they saw those water levels, how did they respond?

TF: They were definitely worried. And we were all shocked. We've never seen anything like this before.

CO: Tell me a bit more about what you did see? How... because we haven't got... we can't show the pictures on radio. Just maybe paint a picture of what Merritt looks like at this point?

TF: The water is up to the bottom of the vehicles and most of the town, and if not deeper. All the mobile home parks along the river have been completely flooded. The river is just raging and creating its own new path. All the ditches are full. Big puddles everywhere.

CO: The mayor had been warning people in Merritt not to turn on water or flush because, basically, it was just going to back up if you did, right?

TF: Yeah, so the sewage treatment plant is actually really close to my home. My husband does work for the city of Merritt, and it is underwater, and it's no longer functioning. So, yeah, we have no access to clean water in our town and we can't flush or anything. So the whole town has been evacuated. No one is supposed to stay in their homes.

CO: And have they given you any sense of when you will be able to return?

TF: No.

CO: And what's your expectation of what it would be like when you do?

TF: I'm expecting my basement will have a significant amount of water in it, and that our yards are going to be destroyed because we already saw big debris like floating down the road, essentially, by our house. Garbage cans, logs, you name it, right?

CO: Have you started to process just how bad this is?

TF: Not really. I'm still kind of in denial.

CO: I understand your daughter is affected by the mudslides on the roads, the highways, that are in near Hope. Can you tell us about that?

TF: So, I share custody of her with her father, and he lives in Chilliwack. And he was on his way to drop her in Hope, thinking that I would be able to go get her this morning if the Coq opened back up. So he got her to Hope, dropped her off with my friends there, and then he turned around to go back home, and he was taking the Mission Highway home, and then he got caught in between the slide. So my daughter is safe and dry at my friend's house, but there's no power or water. And her father has run out of supplies since. So I'm not sure what they're going to be doing for those people stuck there?

CO: Is it still raining where you are?

TF: Yes, for the next 24 hours at the last I checked.

CO: Now, just for people with knowledge of the geography, Merritt is, well, right in the middle of the area we were covering just last... last April, last summer. And... and that was when wildfires were surrounding your city. And I think the neighbouring town of Lytton was actually the one that burned, only about 100 kilometres away. So, what's it like to be threatened by nature yet again?

TF: Yeah, it's crazy. We were on evacuation alert with the fires as well, and we could see the fires on the horizon from our back deck. And it was terrifying because fires move quickly, and it just kind of brought back all those feelings of having to pack everything up, and the anxiety, and, you know, thinking you're going to forget something important. I feel like fire is worse than [chuckle] flood just because everything will be gone. At least if our house floods, most of the things upstairs will hopefully be OK. For the kids, you know, they've had some of these things for their entire lives, so it's going to be hard for them to have to lose their things.

CO: Well, at least everyone is safe.

TF: Exactly, yes.

CO: Well, Theresa, I know you got things to do, so I'll go. And thank you for speaking with us.

TF: Yes, thank you.

CO: All right. Take care.

TF: You, too. Bye.

CH: Theresa Fournier was forced to evacuate her home in Merritt, B.C. We reached her in Kamloops.

[Music: Folk]

Tree DNA Evidence

Guest: Richard Cronn

CH: Last week, a timber poacher who ran an illegal logging operation in Washington was sentenced to 20 months in prison. And he might not have been convicted at all if it wasn't for a key piece of evidence -- the DNA from bigleaf maple trees in the state's Olympic National Forest. It's the first time that kind of evidence was used in a federal criminal trial. Richard Cronn is a research geneticist with the U.S. Forest Service's Pacific Northwest Research Station. He testified at the trial. We reached him in Corvallis, Oregon.

CO: Richard, what did Tree DNA reveal to you about this illegal logging operation?

RICHARD CRONN: What the tree DNA reveals to us is the identity of individual trees. We can use the DNA markers to identify, you know, every unique tree. And in this case, it's... it's big leaf maple. The question that was asked to us by law enforcement was whether blocks of wood that had been harvested and taken to a mill came from a legally harvested source on someone's private property, or whether they actually came from illegally harvested trees that were in the Olympic National Forest in western Washington. And what we were able to do is to determine DNA profiles from all of these trees, compare them and then show that these wood blocks most likely came from the Olympic National Forest.

CO: Right. And from not just from the forest, but from specific trees?

RC: From specific trees that were illegally harvested. And the belief is that these trees were illegally harvested and that that led to a fire that spread out of control and ended up burning about 3,000 acres.

CO: The fire itself, they... the conviction didn't end up being for that, but for the poaching. They couldn't prove that the people who were poaching had actually started the fire. So it came down to determining whether this poaching had happened with these specific trees. What were they harvesting this wood for? Tell us a bit about this kind of a tree?

RC: Big leaf maple is like many hard maples. The wood can be used for things like furniture. It could be used for things like cabinetry. But a small number of the trees, maybe five to 10 per cent of them, make a really spectacular figure to grain. And it has a real, shimmering appearance. It's really amazing to look at. And this wood is real high value, and it's specifically used in musical instruments. So things like electric guitars, violins, cellos. And so, whereas typical big leaf maple might sell for about $5 a board foot, this wood sells for about 100 to $400 a board foot.

CO: Wow! This is, I guess, pretty tempting for poachers to get in there. And so, if not for the DNA, would you... would they have been able to determine that this came from those trees? That these poachers, that the wood that they were selling was actually from these trees?

RC: In this specific case, it really took the DNA to be able to make that connection. The information that the loggers had presented was basically a legal permit from the state of Washington that said that they were allowed to cut trees from a private residence, and their claim was that... that all of the wood came from that private residence. And so, if we hadn't had these DNA markers and been able to show the identification and really the match between the wood and the illegally-harvested trees, there wouldn't have been any way to to prove it. And very likely, there would not have been a conviction on the illegal logging.

CO: So every one of the trees in this stand of maples had…. you already had... already had a DNA marker? You already knew the genome of that tree?

RC: Actually, we didn't. The way that we were able to make the connection between the blocks in the mill and the trees in the forest really was through just good old shoe leather investigation by Forest Service law enforcement. They had investigated this fire in particular, and then they discovered, investigating the fire, these illegally logged trees. And so they were the ones that put the connection together between the trees in the forest and these blogs that were sitting in a mill. In this particular case, we analyzed them after the fact.

CO: Right. So you took... you had the milled wood, wood in the mill. And the trees that had been damaged and destroyed. And you put that together.

RC: Yes.

CO: And so how close was the match? Was there... what were the chances that it wasn't a match?

RC: Well, it's a perfect match. We held these to a very high criteria. We said that there had to be a perfect match. And this was done at 120 genetic markers. And just for comparison, human forensic analyses that go on typically use 20 genetic markers. So this is a very large and powerful test. Our estimate is that it's... it's probably about a trillion times more powerful than the test that's used in human forensics. So that allows us to come up with match probabilities that are on the order of one in 100 undecillion. I know this is a not a word people usually think about it, but that would be one in 100... and then the 100 is followed by 36 zeroes. [CO chuckles] That's a very, very low chance. You wouldn't want to buy a lottery ticket had that kind of a chance.

COL But I'll remember the word next time I'm in some sort of a crossword, [both laugh] where I have to try and figure that one out. But now, you mentioned human forensics. And so this is, of course, technology that is used in crime-busting when it involves humans. And so, do you see this now as developing a kind of forensics, a kind of area for... for crime in illegal timbering?

RC: Oh yeah, the technology is here. It's... it's relatively easy for us now to generate these types of databases for different trees. When we develop a database for big leaf maple, it really only works for big leaf maple. So we have to take these kinds of species by species, but it's easy to do this. We can pick the priority species that are being targeted. And we've been able to have a lot of success at this. We've teamed up with a group called Adventure Scientists who enlist citizen scientists, volunteers going out, collecting samples across the U.S. for us, I should say U.S. and Canada. And they're helping us develop these sample databases that we're turning into a genetic database for these high-profile species.

CO: In fact, you did this for certain kinds of pine trees in the Lake Louise area of Canada, the white bark pine trees, and that was also used in a law enforcement investigation, wasn't it?

RC: Yeah, that particular study was collaborative work between myself and Oregon State University, where we were looking at actually all the pines on the planet. And in that particular case, someone called me on the phone and said, is it possible to tell the difference between white bark, which is protected, and limber pine, which is not? And so we simply were able to look it up in our database and say, yeah, these are the genetic tests that you want to run, and here's how to do it. And that particular case resulted in a conviction.

CO: Wow! Do you think that as trees become regarded as far more valuable, we start to appreciate what we have and how necessary they are for survival, that we start looking at crimes against trees and forests and timber as something that has to be investigated at this level? Needs this kind of forensic work?

RC: Yeah. Well, laws that can't be enforced are just simply suggestions. And so, being able to have these kinds of enforcement mechanisms, it's essential to be able to provide support for the timber theft laws that we have around the world.

CO: Richard, it's fascinating and really important work, and I appreciate speaking with you about it. Thank you.

RC: Great. Thanks, Carol.

CH: Richard Cronn is a research geneticist at the Pacific Northwest Research Station with the U.S. Forest Service. We reached him in Corvallis, Oregon.

[Music: Folk jig]

Talking To Strangers Study

CH: And now, our daily segment on celebrity birthdays. Look at this photograph: it's of Nickelback singer Chad Kroeger, who's celebrating his 46th -- uh, why are those people in lab coats looking at us? Do you know them? I don't know them. Oh no: they're coming over. I don't want to talk to them; this is going to be so awkward. Quick, pretend you're telling me… ah, too late! Hi.

[Sound: The voice of a teacher or adult from Charlie Brown and the Peanuts?]

CH: Oh, yeah. You're scientists. Uh-huh. Yes, I am uncomfortable talking to strangers. It's just... pardon? Well, that's very insightful. Oh, you did some research? That's fascinating! [awkward laugh] Exactly! OK, bye. Wow. That is not what I was expecting at all. Those scientists told me they've just published a study in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology on the subject of talking to strangers. They did a number of experiments, they said, in which people talked to people they'd never met. Broadly speaking, before each conversation, everyone said they wouldn't be interested in the stranger, and the stranger wouldn't be interested in them. That they would have no connection, and that the whole thing would be hopelessly awkward. But afterwards, they all said they'd overestimated how uncomfortable the experience would be. And that they'd underestimated their mutual interest, and how connected they would feel. So, if you're nervous about talking to a perfect stranger, just remember: they might actually be perfect.

[Sound: The voice again]

CH: Oh, yeah: the bathroom is down the hall and to the left.

[Music: Elevator]

Part 2: COP26 India, Belarus Sanctions

COP26 India

Guest: Srestha Banerjee

CH: In many ways, the Glasgow Climate Pact is historic. But like all world-changing documents, it had to go through multiple drafts before all 157 countries would sign on. One of those drafts promised to completely "phase out" the use of coal. But China and India said they wanted the wording changed to "phase down." That significant edit happened late in the negotiations and pushed the conference into Saturday night. Alok Sharma, president of the COP26 climate summit, fought back tears when he announced the changes.

SOUNDCLIP

ALOK SHARMA: May I just say to all delegates, I apologize for the way this process has unfolded. And I'm deeply sorry. I also understand the deep disappointment. But I think, as you have noted, it's also vital that we protect this package.

[Sound: clapping]

CH: That was Alok Sharma, president of the COP26 climate summit, announcing a change to the final Glasgow Climate Pact this weekend. Srestha Banerjee is the director of the India Just Transition Centre, an independent non-profit environmental organization. She is in New Delhi, India.

CO: Srestha, we just heard the head of COP26 talking about how deeply sorry he is. He's apologizing, basically, for the changes -- last-minute changes -- that India made to the deal. What do you say to him? Is the deal a deep disappointment because of those changes?

SRESTHA BANERJEE: I would say it is. I mean, having a word of phase out who might have given better confidence on doing away with coal. But from India's standpoint, I don't think that phase down is also such a huge disappointment. Particularly, you know, if we see the way renewable energies is becoming competitive. In fact, there is no right now deadline on when this fizzle out will happen. But if you look at the 2030 pledges that the Prime Minister of India had made in the... in the first day of the COP itself, in fact, that there will be a huge renewable energy target that will be met by 2030. Fifty per cent of the electricity will come from our resources. And if those are to be true, and then there will be lesser and lesser investments in coal-based power in the country anyway, which is already happening.

CO: Right. And so do you think that so... just maybe let's talk about why India wanted this language changed? Because obviously, the reaction in the audience was that they cheered on... they cheered on Mr. Sharma. And India turns out to be the villain in this story. So just talk... let's talk a bit about why India wanted this... this change in language?

SB: Yeah, so... so basically, India, you know, the entire thing to do away with coal is an extremely controversial issue in India. It's still India... 70 per cent, more than 70 per cent electricity, comes from coal. And while India is making the progress on renewable energy, but at the same time, there are still issues with how well our grids is. Do we have the battery storage? Factories and storage at the two main barriers right now for renewable reliability and supply. So there is kind of a sense of discomfort around whether we can commit to a coal phaseout. And an automatic coal power phaseout will also have a huge bearing on coal mining itself.

CO: Can I ask you about the coal mining? So we're talking about a largely unregulated mining industry that employs lots of people in rather precarious jobs. So what... what does that sector of the workforce in India face as they... if they even phase down coal?

SB: This is the challenge India has to deal with in terms of phasing out of coal. Coal-based power phaseout automatically means going down in coal mining itself. Now, India does not have a clear position on that yet because of this employment. There are two local political economy issues of these regions because some of this coal regions are mono-coal districts. So basically, coal is the only industry. And all the industry which is going around it, jobs around it, are coal-centric. So essentially, a coal phase down or phase out will entail a systemic transition of not just the energy system, but also of people's livelihood, providing job, redesigning the economy and all of it. So it will require much broad-based transformative change rather than just a phase-out of coal power means.

CO: And other countries who… that did support this, the original wording who thought this is a great victory for the accord, for the agreement that that coal would be phased out. These are largely countries that have alternative sources of energy for their electricity, right? The United States has natural gas, Canada does, other places do. What does... what... what does India have? If you have to phase out coal, what alternatives for energy does your country have?

SB: So right now, the thing about India is that the biggest opportunity for India is right now that India is making huge progress in renewable energy. In fact, in some cases, you know, solar and solar, along with storage, is as competitive as coal and cheaper than coal in some places. Now, the question problem right now with India, the obstacle we have, is that we do not have the storage technology so scaled up to make it reliable 100 per cent. And also the grid system. The grids are not stable enough. We need smart grids. Now, these are the two investments that we need. The technology is already there. India is one of the pioneering ones. So if we can bridge this, then India is in a win-win position to make this energy transition.

CO: But at the same time, you know, delegates to the Cop26, the... the island nations spoke of being doomed because of what China and India have decided with coal. They spoke of the monumental failure, and that they believe with... with a lot of evidence that they are in a lot of trouble if they can't get to 1.5-degree target much more quickly. And so, is India... India is regarded as a kind of pariah at this point for this decision among those nations. What do you say to them? What do you say to people in the Marshall Islands right now?

SB: Right. No, I personally believe that, you know, having spelled out coal phase-out would have not really hurt India. So India has actually negotiated somewhere… somewhat on a term, which somewhat it will have to do. So, in fact, it could have been better for India if it had stuck to the word coal phase-out. And not just phase down. Because coal... as I'm saying, coal fire phase-out will happen wether we say it or not. I feel the main challenge with this is right now the symbolism and the confidence it has given out. It has given out the sense that, you know, we are not comfortable with phasing out coal, which is definitely disappointing for people. In fact, I would say it is more challenging for the people of India, the poorer people because they… they are some of the people who will be worst affected by the climate change, Right? We already have floods. We have drought. We are having even wildfires. We are suffering from all of this. So it is also in India's own interest to phase it out.

CO: Srestha, thank you very much.

SB: Thank you. Thank you.

CO: All right. Goodnight.

SB: Yup, goodnight.

CH: Srestha Banerjee is the director of the India Just Transition Centre. She's in New Delhi. And we have more on this story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Acoustic guitar]

Malala Marriage

CH: Malala Yousafzai has always been candid about her views on marriage. The Pakistani activist and Nobel Peace Prize winner has voiced concerns about the inherent patriarchy of the institution, and shared her doubts about whether she would ever consider getting married. But last week, Ms. Yousafzai married her partner Asser Malik, the high performance general manager of the Pakistan Cricket Board. Yesterday, she spoke with the BBC's Andrew Marr about her decision -- and the love of cricket she shares with her partner.

SOUNDCLIP

ANDREW MARR: So Malala, I should start by congratulating you on your marriage. You were… you were against marriage for a while. What's changed your mind?

MALALA YOUSAFZAI: I was not against marriage. I had concerns about marriage. And that is true for many girls around the world who have seen, you know, reports about child marriage and reports about forced marriage and --

AM: Imbalance of power in marriage is what you’re worried about?

MY: Imbalance of power and how, you know, girls and women make more compromises than men. And how a lot of these customs are influenced by patriarchy and misogyny. So you have to question the systems that we are living in and you have to question the status quo. But I am lucky that I found a person who understand my... my values and --

AM: A very good cricketer as well, I gather?

MY: Yes, [chuckle] he has passion for cricket, so that was another thing. And he... he understands my sense of humour and we have a lot in common.

CH: Pakistani activist Malala Yousafzai speaking with the BBC's Andrew Marr about her decision to get married.

[Music: The mini update theme]

Mini Update: Fenster Is Free

CH: Danny Fenster is free. On Friday, we told you how the American journalist had been sentenced to eleven years in prison with hard labour in Myanmar. That was the maximum the court could give. Mr. Fenster is one of dozens of media workers imprisoned since the military coup. But his was the harshest sentence yet. Now, though, he's on his way home. He was released with the help of former American diplomat Bill Richardson. The two arrived in Doha before heading back to the U.S. Danny Fenster spoke to Al Jazeera during his layover and said he was doing fine, but that he was still concerned about his colleagues, most of whom are citizens of Myanmar. He said, "We're gonna keep the focus on them as much as possible, and do everything we can to lobby on their behalf. We're still trying really hard and hoping we can get them out of there."

[Music swells]

Belarus Sanctions

Guest: Pekka Haavisto

CH: In recent months, thousands of people have arrived in Belarus -- hoping to cross into the European Union at the bloc's eastern border with Poland. The forest there is cold. There have been deaths. And migrants, predominantly from Iraq and Afghanistan, have almost nothing with them -- in some cases, not even shoes. Activists have criticized Poland's treatment of migrants there. And Belarus's President Alexander Lukashenko has been accused of encouraging migrants to come, as part of a so-called "hybrid war" he's launched in response to sanctions slapped on his country. And now, more of those measures are coming: today, EU foreign ministers met in Brussels and announced that they would increase sanctions on Belarus. Pekka Haavisto is Finland's minister of foreign affairs. We reached him in Brussels.

Speaker 1: Minister Haavisto, this will be the European Union's fifth round of sanctions on Belarus. Why do you believe the outcome will be any different this time?

PEKKA HAAVISTO: Well, I can see that the pressure towards Belarus has been mounting. And, of course, it's not only European Union, but the European Union has been taking the lead. And, first of all, it's important that we react together, so all the European countries together. And secondly, we are now able also to address those players who have been causing the hybrid... currently hybrid attack against Poland, Latvia, Lithuania. So that might include air companies or travel agencies and others who are... who are behind this.

CO: But what now? Mr Lukashenko, the president of Belarus, denies that he has anything to do with these migrants who are at his border, these refugees who are trying to get into Poland, into Europe. What is your evidence that he does have a responsibility for it?

PH: Well, if he wants to invite migrants to his country, of course, he has to take care of them, and he has to give them the asylum and so forth. But for us, it's obvious, and this is what all our sources are saying, that this is an organized travelling to Minsk, and then people are pushed by soldiers and police forces against the border. So the intention is, of course, to make a disturbance on the borders of European Union, and it's clear that people are paying for these trips. Travel agents, some travel agencies are behind it, and these flights are now coming from many sources. What is positive is that already many countries have been reacting to cancel these flights, Turkey, Iraq, among those countries who reacted first as said that they will not allow people off to travelling to Minsk for these purposes.

CO: Mr Lukashenko says that he is perfectly happy to send all these migrants, all these refugees, back to their home countries, but they don't want to go. So what's he to do if the refugees are not to go into Europe and he has them in Belarus? What are his responsibilities, then?

PH: His responsibilities? If he invites people to Belarus, his responsibility, of course, according to international agreements, is to offer them asylum. The processes should be handled in Minsk. Today, we have heard that from countries, for example, Iraq has offered to take their citizens back from Minsk. And of course, this is a very good offer. In this case, people have been fooled. They are very disappointed. They have got wrong information. This is part of the disinformation spread by Belarus. And it's, of course, it's not these people's fault, but unfortunately, this hybrid operation planned by Lukashenko himself.

CO: But this is not... the people's fault is key to this, isn't it? Because they are at the border, they are attempting to get into Poland. They're not going to turn back. Does not the European Union itself, does not Finland have obligations to these people to at least give them asylum hearings? I mean, they are stuck there. What are the European Union's obligations here?

PH: Of course, these people are stuck because there is soldiers and military trying to push them from the Belarus side. And now, of course, it's the Belarus responsibility to take care of these people and also offer them immediate humanitarian help. And this is what European Union has been offering and asking Belarus to do. That these people have cold or lack of medicine or... or some some support. There are children and so forth. We are, of course, ready to help them humanitarianly in Belarus. And then, of course, if needed for that trip back home. And it's important that this is not this kind of game over going with this fate of these people.

CO: But I appreciate that the European Union is attempting to make a point to Mr. Lukashenko that he can't get away with this. But we're talking about thousands of people, many of them women and small children, in the winter, the beginning of winter, with very little. Poland has 20,000 border guards there, preventing them from coming in along with water cannons. And these people have... have nothing. And so, at some point, yes, make the point, Mr. Lukashenko, but does not Poland have a responsibility? Does not the European Union have a responsibility to demand that Poland at least take some rudimentary care of these people?

PH: Well, of course, if this type of hybrid operations would be allowed on any borders, this will totally change the part that countries can attack over the borders, you know, putting... putting people first and then pushing by guns. This is totally irresponsible behaviour by Belarus. And, of course, we have to be very strict on that… that Belarus has a responsibility of these people. And if they want to keep these people, Belarus definitely for these people, could be a safe country, and the asylum process could be dealt there according to international law. But the whole operation is, of course, thwarted by this disinformation by... by Belarus. And I think it's very important that Europe stands united against also these kind of threats.

CO: OK, but you're standing united against these threats from Mr. Lukashenko. You're standing united against these thousands of people who are out there with nothing. So at some point, do you not have to insist that Poland deals with these people who are in a crisis?

PH: Well, at the moment, of course, these people are on Belarus territory. And it's very important that through the Red Cross and through the UN agencies, these people get help. And I have also today been in contact with the U.N. agencies working in Belarus, and all these organizations are ready to give their help. This is, of course, the responsibility of Belarus authorities to let the international organizations to help these people.

CO: They could come into Poland from where they are. They're at border crossings. So why... why not let them in and at least begin some kind of relief for the situation there in? Why don't you demand that since this is Europe, it's Poland, why not make some demands of Poland in the instance of these people and their needs?

PH: Well, of course, the similar demand that the people who have arrived to put to Poland is that the Red Cross and other organizations could treat these people. But on both sides of the border, of course, aid has to be given to people. That's clear.

CO: And is European Union going to provide that aid?

PH: The European Union, of course, is ready to provide aid on both sides of the border as well as international organizations.

CO: And so, at this point these people are just going to be sort of human ping-pong balls going back and forth between the European Union and Belarus then?

PH: But today, of course, the news is that, for example, Iraq is ready to take their citizens back from the region. I think it's very, very important that we organize a safe return for people who have been misled in this kind of situation.

CO: Minister Haavisto, thank you.

PH: Thank you. Bye-bye.

CO: Bye-bye.

CH: Pekka Haavisto is a Finnish Green League politician and the country's minister of foreign affairs. We reached him in Brussels.

[Music: Jazz]

Henry Woolf Obit

CH: People like Henry Woolf don't come along very often. And fellow actor Kent Allen says that, chances are, you'll never meet his like again. Mr. Woolf had a career in Britain before moving to Saskatchewan in the '80s -- where he ran Saskatoon's Shakespeare festival for a decade. Henry Woolf died on Friday. He was 91. He took theatre and acting seriously. But he had a strong sense of fun. He had small roles in The Rocky Horror Picture Show and Doctor Who. And back in 2008, you may have heard him on As It Happens.

CH: He took part in two CBC panels comparing the political leaders running in the Canadian and U.S. elections to Shakespearean characters. Here's his take on former Prime Minister Stephen Harper:

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HENRY WOOLF: I would cast him as Iago without the awful evil side to Iago. May I say, by the way, that I find the political campaign rather too over exciting? But Iago says this, he says, I would not wear my heart on my sleeve for daws to pick at. I am not what I am. That strikes me as very Harperish. You know, take away the evil and you've got a really clever politician.

SOUNDCLIP

CH: Here's how he assessed former Republican presidential candidate John McCain.

SOUNDCLIP

PW: I was reading Othello. There are some marvellous things that he says and the alteration of maybe just one or two they become kind of apropos. How about this from Othello, John McCain saying, I have done the state some service and they know it. I have seen the day that with this little arm and a good plane, I've made my way, Obama, through more impediments than 20 times your stop.

CH: And, finally, former President Barack Obama.

SOUNDCLIP

HW: He's Mark Anthony. He's a great orator and it's great about these quotations. You just have to change one word and it fits. How about this for Barack Obama? Mark Anthony saying, friends, patriots, countrymen, I come to bury Bushism. Not to praise it. The evil that men do lives after them. So let it be with Bush. How about that?

CH: Actor, director, playwright, and professor Henry Woolf taking part in a CBC Radio panel back in 2008. Mr. Woolf died late last week. He was 91.

[Music: Folk]

Part 3: Afghanistan: Jan Egeland, Austria COVID Lockdown Begins

Alberta Child Care

CH: Alberta is the latest province to strike a 10-dollar-a-day childcare deal with Ottawa. But don't mistake that collaboration for a cozy relationship. Prime Minister Justin Trudeau was in Edmonton today to announce the deal alongside Premier Jason Kenney. The agreement means that some 3.8 million dollars in taxes paid by Albertans to Ottawa will go toward early learning centres, training, and reducing the cost for parents by 2026. But it fell short of giving the province unconditional funding, which is what Premier Kenney wanted. At a press conference today with the Prime Minister, Premier Kenney was asked why Alberta's deal differs from Quebec's.

SOUNDCLIP

JASON KENNNEY: We certainly wanted the same flexibility as Quebec. Of course, Quebec has had their own program for many years. But they got, I understand, complete flexibility in their agreement with the federal government, which we would have preferred. But at the end of the day, this is the best deal that we could get, and the option was leaving nearly four billion tax dollars on the table. We believe that money belongs to Alberta taxpayers. They paid into the... their federal taxes. We want to see that those dollars come back to support Alberta families. I want to commend Minister Schulz for having driven a very hard bargain to get maximum flexibility to reflect the unique characteristics of child care in Alberta. But at the end of the day, it's not the only time where we see what appears to be a two-tier federation. And I think the basic aspiration of Albertans is to be treated equally, to have the same powers that Quebec exercises in the same treatment from the federal government, which includes unconditional funding when there are national policy goals.

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: Allow me to respond directly to that, and I don't want to get into a discussion around constitution or division of powers. But I will say that it is not a question of flexibility that we gave to Quebec on child care versus flexibility we wouldn't give to Ontario. The goal of these child care agreements, as stated in our budget of last year... of earlier this year, was ten-dollars-a-day child care within five years, and cutting fees in half over the next year. Quebec already has ten-dollars-a-day child care right across the country. Indeed, it's at eight dollars and fifty cents, so it made no sense for us to impose conditions that they have already surpassed. So it's not about treating one province differently. If Alberta already had a child care at eight-dollar-a-day across the province, we would have had an approach similar to Quebec. So let's not create constitutional conventions out of this. It's about looking at what families had, what families need and how we get to ten-dollars-a-day child care right across the country. And that's exactly what we did.

CH: That was Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, and before that Alberta Premier Jason Kenney, speaking today about a 10-dollar-a-day childcare agreement between the province and Ottawa.

[Music: Jazz]

Afghanistan: Jan Egeland

Guest: Jan Egland

CH: The food crisis facing Afghans is accelerating the refugee crisis for Afghanistan's neighbours. Nearly nine million people are on the brink of famine. The Afghan economy has collapsed amidst the withdrawal of foreign funds after the violent takeover by the Taliban earlier this year. Now hundreds of thousands of Afghans are fleeing their homes. Jan Egeland met some of them last week as they crossed into Iran. Mr. Egeland is the Secretary-General of the Norwegian Refugee Council. We reached him in Oslo.

CO: Mr. Egeland, what kinds of stories did you hear from those Afghans that you met at the border about why they're leaving their homes and what uncertainty they face in Iran?

JAN EGELAND: Well, the Afghans are unanimous about this economic freefall there is inside Afghanistan now. There is no economy. And people fear for their lives. This coming winter, it's going to be bitterly cold. It's cold in Afghanistan, as it is in many parts of Canada. But they will not have your heating, they will not have your housing, and they will not have the food.

CO: Iran has been accepting refugees from Afghanistan for decades. There are many people who have been there for so long. Now, these latest people are arriving. How many people? How many Afghans do you think will be crossing the border during this wintertime?

JE: Well, our estimate is that 4,5000 have crossed every single day now since the Taliban took over in Afghanistan. Three hundred and twenty thousand or so since August. And they come on top of the three and a half to four million Afghans that are already there in Iran. Iran has, as has Pakistan, hosted millions and millions over those last 40 years of conflict in Afghanistan. So we have this myth in... in the West and Europe that we are overwhelmed by refugees coming here. It's not true. Ninety percent of the Afghan refugees are in Iran and in Pakistan, and millions are not even getting out of Afghanistan because the borders are now closed, and it's very difficult to escape.

CO: Some of this is because of the drought. But this is a manmade crisis, isn't it? Who... who do you hold responsible for what's going on right now?

JE: Well, all of those who have been parties to this conflict, and it was the Taliban, as it has a responsibility because they fought for power and they took power. However, overnight this enormous aid program that was there from the NATO countries was switched off. Seventy per cent of all public payments, public salaries, teachers, doctors, nurses, water engineers, garbage collectors, they were paid from Western development donors, primarily from the World Bank. That money is now sitting in Washington, D.C. and elsewhere frozen. But it's the same doctors and nurses and teachers, of course. So... so, I also find it hard to understand why so many donors sit on the fence and are afraid in a way for committing themselves for the Afghans in Afghanistan when it's the same civilian population, and we have direct channels, not a penny to the Taliban. It goes through us as international organizations on the ground to Afghans in great need.

CO: We have had this same conversation so many times in these past few weeks, Mr. Egeland. And... and it's perplexing for everyone who is involved, why that aid money is not being released, why it's not flowing? I've heard the same commitment you have just made from other aid organizations that the money will go through them. They will ensure that the people are the recipients. What is preventing this from... from happening then?

JE: Well, it's beyond me, really. I think there are... there is a lot of compliance mechanisms now in international assistance, and there is a lot of risk aversion. So many say to us, well, we're pledging funding. We just need to have ABCDE and F in place. And then we say, listen, there is not even banks functioning now because of the freezing of assets of banks abroad and so on. How can we guarantee a maintaining a priori? What we guarantee is that we are the ones that... that deliver the assistance. So what we ask for is commitments and transfer of funding now, a fixing of the international financial transfers to Afghans. So we can have banks again running, so we can pay for our staff in the country and that they start with much more of what is already happening from some UN agencies direct payment of public salaries with the aid money which is already existing for that.

CO: But you say that risk aversion is what prevents this from happening. Are the risk-averse aware that there are 22 million people who are facing acute food insecurity in the coming months?

JE: I think they are, and I think they in the way sympathize, but I think they still wait for... for... for too many things. I mean, and a dilemma here is, for example, there is no girls education on secondary level, so they are also holding back money because of that. My point is it wouldn't be good if these girls starve to death before we are able to fix, as I'm sure we will, secondary education and all of... all of the provinces.

CO: As you know, Canada has spent billions of dollars in Afghanistan. What do you think Canada's responsibility is at this point? What would you urge our leaders in Canada to do about this situation?

JE: What I would ask of Canada and all of the other NATO countries, including my own country, Norway, that hold responsibility for what happened because we were there for 20 years. What I what I ask is to zoom in now on the civilian population, use the channels that are already there and understand that having spent billions on a failed military, political project doesn't preclude now giving the needed sums for the civilians that were left behind when the military and the diplomats and the others went for the door. They are still there. We are behind with them. We need your funding, please.

CO: Mr. Egeland, as always, it's good to have you on the program. Thank you.

JE: Thank you.

CH: Jan Egeland is the Secretary-General of the Norwegian Refugee Council. We reached him in Oslo.

[Music: Horns!]

FOA: Qatar Strip Search Lawsuit

CH: They suffered an indignity that still gives some of them nightmares. And the women who were strip-searched at an airport in Qatar say they want to make sure it never happens again. Last year, women on a flight at the Doha airport were ordered off the plane by armed guards, and given physical exams by nurses, to determine whether they had just given birth. It happened after a baby was found abandoned, and alive, in a garbage can at the airport. Now a group of women from Australia are suing authorities in Qatar, who they say have not done enough to address the trauma and intrusion they went through. In October 2020, we reached a passenger who was on that Qatar Airways flight. Wolfgang Babeck is also an international law expert. Here's part of what he told Carol.

SOUNDCLIP

WB: One of the women was crying and everybody was very upset and shell shocked. News dissipated slowly. You know, this is a moment which is very delicate, very private. You don't want to ask any question, but certainly something horrific had occurred.

CO: And they were looking for a woman who would appear to have recently given birth.

WB: Yeah, that is the case. So they wanted to assess with a medical examination that none of the women on the plane were the mother. And that is, of course, an extremely intrusive activity. And nobody had been asked to give permission or, you know, had been warned or anything. So I believe this is a blatant violation of human rights.

CO: Do you know what kind of examination the women had? Did they tell you much about how intrusive this was?

WB: Well, at the time, I told you how delicate it was. I was only aware they had to take off their clothes from bottom down, which is super shocking, and that they had been well touched on the abdomen to feel whether, you know, probably the belly is still ablated and whether they could be the mother. I understand now from two of the women who have now found the courage to speak out a bit more in detail that some of the assessment had even been more intrusive. Somebody mentioned class action. I don't know. But I think, of course, the main element for these women and they are very strong women among them, they are all admirable characters. It's not so much about their own personal gain, but rather they would like to, you know, assist women around the world that they are treated with dignity and respect as they should be.

CH: Wolfgang Babeck was a passenger on the plane in Qatar where women were removed and subjected to physical exams. He spoke with Carol in 2020.

[Music: Glassy guitar]

Austria COVID Lockdown Begins

Guest: Dr. Eva Schernhammer

CH: Now that some two million unvaccinated residents are confined to their homes, the streets of Austria were a bit quieter today. But in the lead-up to this week's lockdown on the unvaccinated, they were anything but quiet.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: Protest chants]

CH: The sound of anti-lockdown demonstrators in Austria, protesting against a controversial measure that came into effect today. The new rule requires unvaccinated residents aged 12 and up to remain in their homes -- with some exceptions. Break that rule and you could be fined up to 3,600 euros (the equivalent of 5,000 Canadian dollars.) It's a dramatic approach, designed to get a handle on the country's soaring COVID-19 case rate. Dr. Eva Schernhammer is a professor of epidemiology at the Medical University of Vienna, where she lives. Today, we reached her in Boston.

CO: Dr. Schernhammer, putting all unvaccinated residents of Austria on lockdown seems a bit extreme. Is it really necessary?

DR. EVA SCHERNHAMMER; Well, the unvaccinated population in Austria accounts for 35 per cent, so the goal here is to really bring down the acutely increasing new infection numbers. So it's one first step of potentially more. It depends on how these measures will impact the current pandemic dynamic.

CO: It’s been said in a number of places that the COVID pandemic is a pandemic for the unvaccinated. And you say 35 per cent of your population is unvaccinated. it's quite high compared to the rest of Europe. What effect is that having on Austria's hospitals and intensive care units?

DES: Yeah, I mean, that number is too high. That's the first important point. So it's really critical to get at least 80 per cent vaccinated. That would be really the goal. But the second point is also that we are seeing currently, and that's in part driving this new increase in cases, a decline of immunity among those who have received two vaccines. So you have these breakthrough infections that are essentially contributing to the high case numbers, although they don't translate to oftentimes severe disease, but nonetheless, there is a lot of infections going around in Austria and hurting the unvaccinated.

CO: You mentioned that this is a first step of potentially more government intervention. What more could the government of Austria do?

DES: With there’s sure what would be an easy thing would be to have widespread FB2 masks again obligatory. That used to be the case during past waves and could be easily reimplemented. And then if all of this doesn't help, then more measures perhaps also affecting the vaccinated may need to be implemented, but that needs to be seen.

CO: But this isn't a complete lockdown. These people are not under house arrest. What are they actually able to do?

DES: Well, they are able to go to work, but they have to bring a PCR test. They cannot go out to restaurants or theatres or any... any amusement. But that has also not been possible since over a week. So the addition now is that any other activities like going shopping except for absolutely necessary type shopping, they are no longer allowed to do. Basically, any outside activity that is not considered necessary. And I think the goal right now is to see whether this translates into some lower case numbers, and that has to be the case fairly soon.

CO: And if people violate this, the fine is quite high. It’s about $5,000 in Canadian dollars. And... but how is it policed? I mean, what... how do you manage to... how do you find out if people are vaccinated? How many police have to be assigned to this job and what does it take?

DES: Well, as far as I have understood it, the government has added police, you know, groups that will go and do random checks. And I suppose the randomness and these high fines will hopefully make it prohibitive for people to break those rules because you never know whether you might be checked and it's going to be very expensive.

CO: The BBC spoke with a retired person in Austria, a man who is unvaccinated. His wife has received the vaccine. And I just want to play a bit of what he has to say and get you to respond to what this gentleman had to say.

SOUNDCLIP

MAN: In my everyday life, I'm able to do almost nothing. We have no possibility to go to restaurants, to theatres, to cinemas.

HOST: So just... how do you feel then about this situation you are in now where you are not allowed to go out, apart from four essential things? Your wife is.

MAN: It’s psychological and social effects on society as a whole because we are divided into two groups. And the hate, what's going on here, is not describable. What's happening here?

HOST: Is this actually reinforcing skepticism about what you are being told? For you, for you, for example?

MAN: For me, it's... it's no change because it's a next step in an illogical chain.

CO: All right. That's what the gentleman has to say. It doesn't sound like he's going to give in and go and get vaccinated. So what happens if they just decide to stay home?

DES: Well, as far as I can see already, this is having an impact. So there are droves of people trying to get vaccinated now, especially the younger ones, because they do want to go out and it starts to become too much of a nuisance to constantly have to do testing and not being able to go anywhere. So I do think this will translate in more vaccination rates. And I do also want to perhaps add the perspective with since I am also an MD of the health care facility in Austria, which is really suffering at the moment. The numbers of new cases has filled up all hospital beds and these health care workers are at their limits. They don't understand why people don't get vaccinated, knowing that the vaccine can prevent almost all of this. I do agree with the gentleman, though, that the government will have to really try to get these two sides together at some point, and hopefully we can then move on and out of the pandemic.

CO: But in the end, we're speaking with you in Boston. You're travelling, you are free to come and go, to move, because you're vaccinated. And this gentleman we heard from is sitting in his house. At some point, do these two pictures have an effect of people moving around as you are and somebody who can't leave?

DES: Yeah, I mean, I would think so because, like you say, being vaccinated, my life is mostly back to normal were it not for the, you know, current wave, which does impact everybody's lives, but not to the degree that it certainly impacts you if you’re not vaccinated. You always have to worry about getting the disease, especially with such high case numbers are circulating in the population. So risk is really high also for the children, by the way, to to now catch COVID-19. And so I think, you know, it would make sense if they eventually come around and also see that that's the best way forward.

CO: It’d be interesting to speak with the gentleman's wife to see how she feels about this. [CO chuckles] She's doing all the shopping, I'm sure.

DES: Yeah, that's right.

CO: Dr. Schernhammer, it’s good to talk to you. Thank you.

DES: Yes. Have a nice evening.

CO: You, too. Bye-bye.

DES: Bye.

CH: Dr. Eva Schernhammer is a professor of epidemiology at the Medical University of Vienna. We reached her today in Boston.

[Music: Vocalization]

No James Corden

CH: If you know nothing else about James Corden, host of The Late Late Show, you probably know that he loves to sing. And that when he does... it sounds like this.

SOUNDCLIP

[Music: James Corden sings a medley of songs]

CH: James Corden's Carpool Karaoke. Which delighted audiences. Some audiences. For a while. But then, he went from singing in cars to singing in big-screen vehicles like Into the Woods and Cinderella and -- shudder -- Cats. Which left very few singing his praises. And in this context, fans of the Wizard of Oz-inspired musical Wicked have started a petition with the goal of cutting James Corden from the cast of a movie adaptation -- before he even joins it. Despite the stage musical's massive success, the film has been slow to take off. But now momentum is growing. The witches have been cast -- Ariana Grande as Glinda and Cynthia Erivo as Elphaba. And it seems a lot of fans don't want the filmmakers courting Corden. At last check, nearly a hundred thousand people had signed a Change.org petition to 'Keep James Corden Out of Wicked the Movie'. The explanation reads, quote, "James Corden in no way shape or form should be in or near the production of Wicked the movie…. that's pretty much it." Unquote. Ouch. It has to be a drag when your drive takes you somewhere exciting -- and everyone wants you to stay in the car.

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November 15, 2021 Episode Transcript

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