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The AIH Transcript For November 11, 2021

[hosts]Carol Off, Chris Howden[/hosts]

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[music: theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

CO: Valiant efforts. Jesse Larochelle saved lives when the Taliban attacked his platoon's outpost in Afghanistan in 2006 -- and now, his comrades are pushing for him to be awarded Canada's highest military honour.

CH: Doubting the hands that feed. The World Food Programme's Afghanistan director warns that international donors will have to get past the politics of sending aid to a country governed by the Taliban -- or millions of people will starve.

CO: Rough justice. The trial of three men charged with killing a young Black man who was out for a jog in Georgia continues -- and Ahmaud Arbery's aunt says the proceedings have left the family sad, angry, and frustrated.

CH: Stained legacy. A former anti-apartheid activist gives the late F.W. de Klerk credit for helping dismantle the racist political system in South Africa -- but says the former prime minister didn't do enough to denounce it.

CO: Hive minding. When Asian honeybees realize murder hornets have shown up, they really get themselves in their bonnets -- and you'll hear the sound they make when they replace their regular business with panicky buzziness.

CH: And… the short end of the joystick. Since the '80s, anyone who's stepped out of line at one New Jersey video arcade has been banned for life -- meaning decades later, it's still game over.

CO: As It Happens, the Thursday edition. Radio that warns: even if you show up with quarters, you'll be given no quarter.

[music: theme]

Part 1: Canadian Victoria Cross, Ahmaud Arbery's Aunt, New Jersey old Arcade Ban

Canadian Victoria Cross

Guest: Bruce Moncur

CH: The two-decade-long war in Afghanistan is over. But many people are still paying the consequences, including the Canadian soldiers who served there. One of them is Jess Larochelle. He was a private in the Canadian army in 2006 stationed in the Panjwaii district. The Taliban attacked his platoon's outpost -- which was underequipped. Two soldiers died in the attack, but Private Larochelle single-handedly saved many of his comrades' lives. And he never really recovered. Now a group of veterans and others want to see him awarded the Canadian Victoria Cross. It's the country's highest military honour. And it's never been given to anyone. Bruce Moncur is a retired corporal who served with Jesse Larochelle. We reached him in Thompson, Manitoba.

CO: Bruce, how would you characterize what your friend Jess did on that day in October 2006?

BRUCE MONCUR: I would say a movie script, superhuman. What he did is truly something that if Jess was an American, you'd expect them to make a movie with Bradley Cooper playing him.

CO: This is an extremely difficult time, 2006 in the Panjwai district, it was under attack all the time. We lost a number of Canadians during that same stretch. And so, he was there, and he had a very difficult job to do. Can you tell us... can you describe what he did there?

BM: Well, Jess was manning an operation post, so he was observing. And basically, was a little bit removed from everyone. He was the first line of defence. In doing so, he volunteered to go because they were already shorthanded. They had hit... one of the vehicles had hit a landmine and had to be taken back to Kandahar airfield. So when he went to the operation post, the op, and there are two C6 machine guns in that... in that operation post and to properly man a C6 machine gun, you need two people. So... and with two guns there, you need for people to properly man that position. But he was there by himself. And when the attack happened, a rocket hit his position, knocking him unconscious, but also breaking vertebrae in his neck and his back, detaching his... one of his retinas and blowing the eardrum out of his right side. So he was deaf, and still is to this day, deaf in his right side, right ear. And when he came to, he fought off the attack of over 40 Taliban fighters that were about to overcome their position. And once he fought them off, and had he had not engaged the enemy, they would have been overwhelmed. And they credit him with saving probably the lives of 30 Canadians, and it prevented hand-to-hand combat. His actions were basically superhuman, especially given the injuries that he sustained. And the other element to this, too, is that two of the LAVS, light-armoured vehicles, that were posted to that position, both of them had stoppages at the time of the attack, so he was the only sustained fighter combating the... the attack of the Taliban. Another element to this as well is while firing those rockets, he ended up using about 15 M72 rocket launchers, firing them. And I know the kick of those rockets, and I could just imagine how excruciating each of those would have been firing them with broken vertebrae and a broken neck.

CO: How much cover did he have? What was protecting him?

BM: Nothing, that was it. He did not have any sort of support. It was just him versus the Taliban. So he was essentially laying down fire to protect those that were injured and protect them from being overwhelmed.

CO: You lost two of your colleagues in that battle, Sergeant Darcy Tedford and Private Blake Williamson, and lots of wounded. But as you say, lots who survived because of what he did. And how did it mark Jess? What effect did all this have on him?

BM: So Jess is a really private guy. He is, you know, I've been lucky enough now to have a few conversations with him and talk to him in the last few months over this initiative. And he likes hunting and fishing. He likes going trout fishing. But the thing that he really has had a problem with is his health has really started deteriorating over the last couple of years. So the bad days are vastly outnumbering the good days. And there was a time there in September where we didn't know if we would have Jess for much longer. He'd been in the hospital for about 12 times. He'd lost 100 pounds. And they couldn't figure out what was wrong.

CO: His father, Randy, told the National Post, he said it's as though a part of Jess never came back from Afghanistan. And as you know, that's something we've heard so many times that the same soldier didn't return. How difficult is that for him, do you think? And for those who have to care for him?

BM: Jessi has had a rough go since coming home. And... and the health issues are just part of it, you know? The memory issues and the PTSD. He paid so much, he paid such a high price, and he's still paying for... for that day, mentally and physically, you know, every day, and it's only gotten worse.

CO: He was... Jess was given the Star of Military Valour the following year for his actions. A number of the soldiers who were in what they called Operation Medusa were honoured in that way. But you and others want to see another military honour, that military honour, upgraded to the Canadian Victoria Cross, which has never been awarded to anyone. You want to see Jess get that. And what does it mean for Jess? Have you spoken to him about your efforts to get him the Canadian Victoria Cross?

BM: I have. He's very humbled. He's very appreciative of the efforts that we've gone through. And his health started getting better. And then, before you know it, all sudden, his family has noticed that the quality of health care started getting better. It actually helped. You know, I think the morale boost helped. And that's what we really want to do. Frankly, Jess's story was starting to become almost like a tall tale in the military, where guys would be cleaning their weapons and tell, oh, I heard about this one guy that did this. And he's slowly becoming forgotten. And we... it'd be such a crime for Jess's story to be forgotten because it's so incredible.

CO: The military has to recommend awarding the Canadian Victoria Cross to the Governor-General. If you could make the pitch for Jess, what would you say?

BM: I would say that Jess Larochelle checks all of the criteria for the Victoria Cross. And to not give it to him would be a crying shame. What he did that day was absolutely above and beyond the call of duty. What he did that day was a truly a herculean task. And from such an unassuming private that, you know, was always quiet and not really, you know, loquacious. It's incredible. I cannot say enough adjectives to describe just what he did that day. And the more I find out about that day, the more I'm stunned that he doesn't have the Victoria Cross.

CO: What a worthy man for that award. And, Bruce, I appreciate you telling us about Jess. Thank you.

BM: Thank you for having me. All the best.

CO: You bet! Bye-bye.

CH: Bruce Moncur is a retired corporal who served with Jess Larochelle in Afghanistan. He is part of the non-profit group, Valour in the Presence of the Enemy. He was in Thompson, Manitoba. Mr. Moncur is married to NDP MP Niki Ashton, one of the sponsors of the petition to the House of Commons, pushing for Jess Larochelle to be awarded the Canadian Victoria Cross. You can find more on this story on our webpage at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: The mini update theme]

Ahmaud Arbery's Aunt

Guest: Thea Brooks

CH: The trial of the men facing murder charges in the killing of Ahmaud Arbery continues in Georgia this week. In February of last year, the 25-year-old Black man was chased by three white men in pickup trucks, shot and killed. Videos of the shooting have sparked outcry and calls for racial justice across the U.S. Mr, Arbery's family says he was out for a jog. They've called it a "modern-day lynching". The McMichaels -- the father and son charged -- as well as the other man who filmed what happened from his truck have pleaded not guilty. Their lawyers have argued that they acted in self-defence and were making a citizen's arrest because they suspected Mr. Arbery of a break-in. Thea Brooks is Ahmaud Arbery's aunt. We reached her in Brunswick, Georgia, at the beginning of day five of the trial.

CO: Thea, how are you? How's your family coping with this trial?

THEA BROOKS: Well, it's day-by-day. It's been rough -- the images, the conversations that were had. There has been frustration. There has been sad moments. There have been angry moments. And there have been moments of confusion. But overall, we're coping.

CO: Ahmad's dad, Marcus, is your brother. And how is he doing?

TB: He's not OK. He's strong in most parts, but there are several grey areas. But for the most part, he's pushing. But emotionally, he's distraught.

CO: Are you all in the courtroom? Are you all watching this from the inside?

TB: We are. There are two rooms. There's a main courtroom where the parents and their attorneys sit. Due to COVID, there is limited seating. And then there's an overflow room for any of us extras who want to sit and be a part of what's going on in the proceedings.

CO: Have you seen... have you been in the room with these three white men who were in the pickup trucks and who are accused of murdering your nephew?

TB: I have been in the room previously, but not since the court proceedings have started. But I have had my opportunity to be in the courtroom with them at one point.

CO: How difficult is that?

TB: It was rough. When they came out, this was actually doing the federal... where they were actually assigning the charges over to them for their federal charges. They walked out. Mr. McMichael, Greg McMichael, just kind of stared at us all the way to his feet. No look of remorse. They just looked like what they done. They feel like they should get an award for it. Their facial expressions say a lot, and I felt no remorse the day that I sat in the room with them.

CO: These men are... their defence attorneys are making the case that they were attempting a citizen's arrest on the day that your nephew was killed. And this is a law that has been largely dismantled because of what happened to your nephew, but it was in place at the time. So what's it like for you to hear this defence?

TB: There's no way with all the evidence that we've seen, heard up until this point, which is day five, that they were attempting any citizen's arrest. During none of the investigations where they spoke to any of the officers or investigators during their interviews that they stated that they were attempting a citizen's arrest or anything to that degree. They only told that to the lawyers that are representing them. There was one time where he said he was trying to stop him to I.D. him. But at any rate, if you tell someone that you're going to blow their [expletive] head off if they don't stop and listen to what you have to say, I'm not sure how that's a form of citizen's arrest? I don't know how that even can be used as a defence?

CO: One of those men also said that they had him, quote, trapped like a rat.

TB: Right. They said they cornered him, they angled at him, they ran him off into a ditch. That, to me, is a hunt. I don't know if anybody's ever hunted before, but I mean, they hunted him. They chased him for five minutes through a neighbourhood on foot while they used vehicles, and he ran. I'm just... I'm not understanding what kind of defence that they even think they have?

CO: That video is what has led to this trial, and it was very late in coming out. Anyone and everyone who saw it would share that sense that this... they were chasing him down. And have you tried to imagine what was going on in Ahmaud's head, in his soul when he was on that road?

TB: Absolutely. I've thought about it every day. What was he thinking? I'm sure he was afraid. And I know that at the end, when the incident occurred, that he ran so he couldn't run anymore. It's scientific logic that it's fight or flight. So you've already ran for five minutes. That's your flight. And now, you can't get out. Behind you, you have a truck that has someone in it. And then in front of you, there's a truck with two men in it, and you're the only one. They're armed, and you're not. The last thing for you to do, because at this point, you probably feel like you're going to die anyway, is to at least try to fight. And that's what he did.

CO: You've had to watch that video many times, I would imagine, over these days?

TB: Yes, ma'am, from start to finish, in bits and pieces. Start and stop it. Rewind it. See this part. Slow it down. Watch this part. Yes, for five days now. And then there were photos that we had never seen until Monday of him laying in a street deceased. Just, you know, the memories that you don't want, but that's all you have left.

CO: I just want to ask you one question about the jury selection process, which is for a jury that is in a... about the killing of a black man in Georgia that is made up of 11 white people and one Black person. It's obviously been very controversial. What do you make of that? Do you... do you feel that that is a jury that could actually deliver the verdict that you seek?

TB: At first, I was upset about it. And then, when you think about it, if you had to put mostly African-Americans on there, this fair trial that they were looking for, to be honest, they probably wouldn't have got. But I also feel OK with it because there are a lot of people that are not African-American that hurt and have the same sentiment that we do. That actually feel our pain, that live in our city, that wants to bring closure to this city, that wants the city to get back to the way it used to be and try to unite and make things like this not occur again. So, I'm OK with the fact that there are mothers on that jury. There are fathers on that jury. Grandparents on that jury. And all of these people, they're not a sequestered jury. So at night, they go home, they have the opportunity to think. They can't discuss but think about being able to walk in to see little Andy and hug him. What would it be like not to? What would it be like to miss him at Thanksgiving and Christmas? What would it be like not to have him present because he was killed by something senseless as being in a house under construction that didn't even belong to the people who killed him. I feel like, honestly, they'll make the right decision. I say that the one African-American that's on there, Jesus was one man, and he was followed by 12. All we need is one.

CO: Before I let you go, can you tell us a little bit about your nephew, about Ahmaud?

TB: Ahmaud was a humble young man. Ahmaud was athletic. He played football. Ahmaud was very smart. He graduated from high school. He did a little while in college. Ahmaud was family-oriented. All around, he was a great young man with an amazing smile. He was humble. He was a giver. Ahmaud would give you whatever he had if you asked for it. And those are the things that you don't get to hear people say. You want to, you know, in situations like that, they always want to bring up what you used to do, what happened in your past. But the Ahmaud Arbrey that we knew was a very great, humble young man.

CO: Thea, I am sorry for your loss of Ahmaud. I'm sorry for what you're going through now with this trial, but I really appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

TB: Yes, Ma'am. Thank you so much, and you have a great day.

CO: You, too, bye.

CH: Thea Brooks is Ahmaud Arbery's aunt. She's in Brunswick, Georgia.

[Music: Glassy guitar]

SOD: Asian Honeybees

CH: The sound might make you put your guard up, and that is exactly the point. For the first time, researchers have recorded and analyzed the distress signal made by Asian honeybees when their hive is attacked by murder hornets. And they sound as freaked out as you'd expect.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: A constant buzzing with occasional louder and faster buzzing]

CH: When Asian honeybees hear their colleagues making those sounds, it's go time. They know that danger has arrived and to be on the defensive. Hundreds of them may swarm a hornet until it suffocates, or their collective body heat kills it. They might also resort to a practice called "fecal spotting" -- in which they collect animal poop to plaster around their nest's entrance.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: A constant buzzing with occasional louder and faster buzzing]

CH: The warning signal made by Asian honeybees. Our sound of the day. And listen to Quirks and Quarks on Saturday when Bob McDonald will interview researcher Heather Mattila to hear about how she braved bees and murder hornets to collect that recording.

[Music: Surf rock]

New Jersey Old Arcade Ban

Guest: Chris Cotty

CH: If you're of the generation that first played Pac-Man in a video arcade, you dreaded hearing this.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: The wonderful chiptune hum of Pac-Man dying]

CH: Game over! But imagine if that meant game over for life. No more Pac-Man forever. No Centipede, no Galaga, and no Defender, either. That's what happened if you stepped out of line one too many times at the Eight on The Break Arcade in Dunellen, New Jersey. From the 1980s until today, the arcade has maintained what it calls the "Extreme Exiles" list. Once your name is on it, it's almost impossible to get it off. So if you broke the rules as a pimple-faced teen, you may be a law-abiding citizen in your 50s now -- but you're still an Extreme Exile as far as Chris Cotty is concerned. He's the owner of Eight on The Break arcade. We reached him in Dunellen, New Jersey.

CO: Chris, what mischief would I have to get up to back in the day to have landed on the Extreme Exiles list at your arcade?

CHRIS COTTY: Well, [chuckle] many different things, anything from fighting, to smoking cigarettes inside, to stealing or to harassing any of the other customers. Just basic mischief.

CO: But this is a ban for life, right?

CC: Yes. Well, it actually had a three-star program. So the first time you did something wrong, you got one star. And, of course, the second time, two. And then three, you were gone for good. And the place is rather special. It's basically, oh, you pretty much walk in there. You feel like you're in your own living room with your friends and family. So it's rather self-policing because if people misbehave, the other people there, they want a safe place for themselves, so they call it out to my attention. Hey, this person's doing this wrong or that wrong, and we keep an eye on them. And, you know, when they don't know how to act properly, we get rid of them for good.

CO: You know, everybody is at home playing their games now and in the privacy of their own little room with their screen. But at the time, just maybe remind people, or tell those who weren't around at that time, what an arcade represented for young people?

CC: Well, that was a big issue at the time because the founding fathers of the town saw it as a dark place where kids would go to misbehave, and they would say there were drugs and things like that, but it wasn't the case at all. We knew that we had to create a very safe and clean environment so that children could feel at home and find a safe place for themselves. And because we were able to provide that, the business has been successful for many years. This is... while the business has been there since 1973, I've owned it since 1985.

CO: And just how important was it to the kids just to have that place to go? What... what was... what did it represent in their lives, that arcade?

CC: Home, a refuge, a place to go and meet your friends, a place to enjoy yourself that was yours, you know, distinctly yours. And I don't know if that exists so much anymore. But you know, the pandemic taught everyone a real big lesson. Because as you mentioned, the children nowadays will play their Xbox at home and... and be isolated by themselves. And I think they found out over the pandemic that they really want to be with other people. And since we were... we were closed for nine months, and once we opened up again, we're seeing some very busy days where things are going back to normal again, and the kids are coming back, and the families are coming back, and it's a wonderful thing.

CO: to go back to this Extreme Exiles list. [chuckle] So, given how important it was, kind of central to the lives of a lot of young people, what did it mean if you got on that list? I mean, that must have been devastating?

CC: Yeah. I mean, it meant you couldn't hang out with your friends any longer. I… [chuckling] we... we also sell cheesesteaks, which everyone very much loves. And I've seen people stand outside and hand money off to another kid to go inside to get food for them because they know they can't come inside. And they're sitting outside [chuckle] with this look of shame on their face because they're not allowed in the business any longer. It's, you know, it's sad, but in some ways, a lot of people learned some valuable lessons in life. And I've had a lot of people come back as they've been adults and say to me, you know, that was the best thing you ever did to me. And they come in with their children now, and I get a kick out of it. I see the young kids come up and look at the board, say, hey, there's Mommy. [chuckling] Or there's Daddy! I'm like, oh boy, that makes me feel old real fast! [CO chuckles] But it's... it's amazing, though, because you see wonderfully behaving children, and then you see the parents turned out great. It's just great. It really makes me feel good to see that we've made a difference in people's lives. And it's funny, there's a young man that got married last week. We were invited to the wedding as a matter of fact. And when he was maybe 13, he was playing in a Street Fighter tournament. And he lost, and he was so upset, and he started crying and getting mad at everybody. He went next door to the Chinese restaurant, bought a quart of white rice and put it in the person who beat him's gas tank. So that got him kicked out, you know, for about six months at that time. And so when he wrote this, this is what he wrote. He sent me a text a couple of weeks ago. He said, I've done a lot... plenty of silliness in my life, but stepping foot into The Break, that's the nickname of my business, The Break, was a salvation in many ways. He said, Thank you for making my child in a safe environment and always keeping the spirit of arcades alive. Not many people will understand that nowadays, but I know you do. That was one of the nicest texts I received in a long time.

CO: Wow! But you've made it a point that you have... we have to emphasise here. This… the names of all these people that have been on this exiles list for decades, and they've grown up, and have their own kids, and they're coming back, those names are still there. They're still written down on the board, right?

CC: Yes, they are. And, I mean, the long-running story is the only way to be removed is by passing away. [CO chuckles] And, honestly, the names even stay then, to be honest with you. But there are a lot of people on that board that are very successful business people now, people I've dealt with in business, and they've looked at me sideways and out of the blue said, you kicked me out. And I was like, what?! [chuckle] And it turns out it was somebody I kicked out of the arcade 20 years prior, you know?

CO: But they are coming back in. As you mentioned, they do get to come in or with their kids and show them their name on that board. So, who do you forgive at this point?

CC: Well, put it this way. The people that were originally kicked out on the board were kicked out for very good reasons. Because they weren't doing good things or weren't great people, and if they come in now and they... they're behaving properly, and they've got children with them and, you know, they're great people, we're not going to say anything because we want their business and we... and we're very happy they turned out great. And in some ways, it's wonderful if we could have helped them.

CO: Do they tell their kids, and do they tell you the story of how they got kicked out?

CC: Oh yes, [chuckle] I… I hear these all the time. You can't imagine. The kids say, Mommy, what did you do?! [laughing] Sometimes, it's embarrassing. Sometimes, it's rather funny. But, you know, that's part of growing up, I guess, right?

CO: What are some of the stories?

CC: Oh, anything from stealing sodas from behind the counter, to sneaking into the bathroom with your boyfriend or girlfriend and things like that? You know, lots of things were harmless, but some things weren't. Life happens.

CO: I think you should invent a game called Extreme Exiles, [both chuckle] and the trick to find... to find your way back into the arcade at the end, right?

CC: That's a great idea. And you get a free cheesesteak if you win.

CO: [laughing] Chris, it's great to talk to you. Thanks.

CC: Absolutely. Thank you.

CH: Chris Cotty is the owner of the Eight on The Break arcade. We reached him in Dunellen, New Jersey.

[Music Electronic]

Part 2: Afghan Emergency, F.W. De Klerk Obit

Afghan Emergency

Guest: Mary Ellen McGroarty

CH: Mary Ellen McGroarty is caught between a harsh regime and the plight of millions in desperate need. Ms. McGroarty is the World Food Programme's Afghanistan Director. Earlier this week, her organization warned that nearly 10 million Afghans are facing starvation and that many more are going without enough to eat. To make matters worse, the Afghan winter is coming on fast -- and foreign donors have been slow to contribute aid that might end up in the hands of the Taliban. We reached Mary Ellen McGroarty in Kabul.

CO: Mary Ellen, the food crisis in Afghanistan is being described as the worst humanitarian crisis our world is now facing, which is saying quite a lot, isn't it? What does it look like firsthand on the ground?

MARY ELLEN MCGROARTY: It's devastating on the ground here in Afghanistan. Over 22 million people, in fact, almost 23 million people, in desperate food insecurity situation. And 8.7 million of them just one step away from famine-like conditions. And that is manifesting itself across the country in children becoming severely malnourished, families, particularly women, reducing hugely the amount of food that they eat so that their children can eat, many of them going without food for many days. Many, many families and many men are unable to put a meal on the table every single day because they don't have work. You know, the combination of factors, the drought, the impact of the conflict, and also now the economic fragility the country is facing. All those factors are coming together just to push the people to the very brink.

CO: Is there a place, a moment that... a scene that you can describe for us? A picture that can... that you think is emblematic of what you're seeing in Afghanistan right now?

MEM: Well, I have many of them. I have been out across the country. I've been in Mazar, I've been in Herat, I've been in Kandahar, I've been out around Kabul. And... and each time, I see something, and I'm like, oh my goodness, you know, I've been over 20 years with the World Food Programme, and it's the scale, and the pace of the crisis has... has just astounded me. For example, I was in Herat a couple of weeks ago. You know, I met women who had walked kilometres to bring their malnourished children to the health centre. And I said way back a couple of weeks ago, I said, I'm terrified for this country because these are images I've only seen coming out of Yemen. A couple of weeks later, and, you know, they're just multiplying across the country. I spoke to women in Kandahar, women who never had to come to WFP before. They told me this is the first time they've had to come to us because the factories where the man worked are closed. The jobs that they had cleaning and doing laundry are also gone. The price of fuel and the price of food has gone up. So I'm hearing it every single time I go out and meet the people on the streets and the people at our distribution sites.

CO: And this is not our first interview about the situation. Each time, the… it seems what's needed is that the aid begins to flow once again to Afghanistan. As you know, there is tremendous political infighting about that as to whether the aid can go because the Taliban could access that... its assets. And so, how frustrating is that when you do see that... that what you're seeing around you and you see this intransigence, this inability to move this to the point where you can open the door and get the aid in?

MEM: Yeah, I mean, I think I've said it numerous times now on different... in different fora. We need to separate the political discussions from the humanitarian imperative. And I appreciate there our difficult discussions to be had, and there are huge concerns. But at this juncture and where we see the innocent people in Afghanistan today, the innocent children, the innocent families, whose lives have been upended through no fault of their own, they need our support. They need the support of the international community now. Not in six months' time because then it's going to be far too late, and not in six weeks' time because it's going to be far too late. Winter is upon us. There are families, millions of families across this country who are terrified and how they're going to be able to keep their children warm and how they're going to keep their children fed over the next months of winter?

CO: If you could run things, if you could be the one to make decisions, what would you start with at this point?

MEM: I think I would start on two tracks that scale up massively the humanitarian response, which is required. You know, response now that meets the level, the depth, of... of the need that we are facing. And then also we need creative and brave solutions to be able to resuscitate the economy again, to incentivize the private sector to get businesses reopened. So the people, I mean, can fend for themselves because the humanitarian response is only part of the solution and will only be a solution for a short time. And, I mean, if we do not resuscitate the economy and don't get that moving again, the economy in any country is the lifeblood. You know, find a way to keep the health service, find a way to keep the education service going, find a way to keep the workers paid. Then, you know, this crisis is just going to go on indefinitely and will get worse.

CO: Again, those politics step in, don't they? In answer to what you're saying, we've heard from the United States. They said that under no circumstances would the Taliban be able to access its frozen funds. It says that it would just... to give aid and financing would be an opportunity for terrorists. We spoke with Raya Rahmani, Afghanistan's former ambassador to Washington. She says that aid money would just perpetuate the rule of the Taliban. What do you say to all these concerns that somehow, if anything goes into Afghanistan in the way of assistance, it will just end up fuelling the Taliban?

MEM: No, I mean, there's ways to get assistance, particularly the humanitarian assistance. It could come to organizations directly -- to organizations like the World Food Programme and the other UN agencies. And there's many ways to bring it in. You know, what I mean? To fund agencies directly, to be able to... you know, and get the assistance out to the communities. I mean, we all... we work directly with the communities, we work directly with the people on the... people on the ground. So there are ways of doing this with a bit of... a bit of creative thinking.

CO: Mary Ellen, I appreciate the work that you're doing in Afghanistan. And I appreciate speaking with you tonight. Thank you.

MEM: Thank you very much. Thank you.

CH: Mary Ellen McGroarty is the World Food Programme's Afghanistan Director. We reached her in Kabul.

[Music: Glassy guitar]

F.W. De Klerk Obit

Guest: Alan Michael Lapsley

CH: First, he was the leader of the racist apartheid South African goverment. But then F.W. de Klerk helped dismantle it. The former South African president died today at the age of 85. In 1990, Mr. de Klerk had Nelson Mandela released from prison -- and the two later shared the Nobel Peace Prize. But debate still rages over whether the former president truly had a change of heart about the apartheid system -- or was simply acting in his own political self-interest? Back in 1989, As It Happens host Michael Enright spoke with F.W. de Klerk after he announced the release of some ANC leaders. Here is part of that interview from our archives.

SOUNDCLIP

F.W.DE KLERK: Well, one will have to handle, like any head of state, the problems as they come. I have a mandate, and I'm implementing that mandate. I believe in what I'm doing, and I'm not worried that I'm unleashing forces which can't be controlled. I'm sure that the overwhelming majority of all South Africans are sick and tired of confrontation.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: You speak of a dispensation, but are you not, in fact, trying to change an entire society, an entire way of thinking, an entire culture? I can think of no other politician trying to do that but Mikhail Gorbachev.

FDK: Yes, I think the changes that we are advocating and that we are working to implement are fundamental. And it makes a great demand on... on the people of South Africa. It needs a lot of... a lot of guts to... to really conform towards such fundamental changes. But I have faith in the people of South Africa. We're going to do it.

ME: But in those... in those areas where the support is not overwhelming, how do you address that part of your constituency, which is by any definition, racist?

FDK: by being honest, by being forthright, by trying to win people over, by getting them to accept the the necessity... the necessity for orderly change, for change, not uncontrolled change, not change of a sort which will... which will destabilize the country, but change step by step as fast as possible towards a situation where on the basis that everyone has a fair deal, the threat of confrontation will diminish. So, we... we stand by what we believe, and... and we're doing our utmost to convince people that we are right.

CH: From our archives, that was F.W. de Klerk speaking to Michael Enright in 1989. The last apartheid-era president of South Africa died today. He was 85. Alan Michael Lapsley is a South African Anglican priest and former anti-apartheid activist who was also later a member of the African National Congress. We reached him in Cape Town, South Africa.

CO: Father Lapsley, when you heard that F.W. de Klerk was dead, what were your first thoughts and feelings?

ALAN MICHAEL LAPSLEY: Well, of course, when somebody passes away, you feel sadness for the family. And you want to express your condolences to them. But, of course, at the same time, there are other feelings. F.W. de Klerk never made himself accountable for particularly his involvement with the death squads and with the violence that took place in the early ‘90s. Even though he is correctly credited with having had the guts to negotiate, he wasn't able then to help the white community face its own complicity with evil and death and suffering.

CO: Of course, he is credited with having helped to dismantle the apartheid system in South Africa. He freed Nelson Mandela. They shared the Nobel Peace Prize. But it's always the question as to whether or not he actually had any kind of change of heart about a system that his family had gone to great lengths to build, or if he just simply saw the writing on the wall at that point? What's your sense?

AML: He has said that it was his conscience. Conscience was a long time coming. And I think, in the end, it was a response to pressure, the pressure of the people of South Africa, the pressure of the people of the world was overwhelming. And so he was smart enough to say, I need to negotiate as good a deal as possible for white people. And I think that's what... what he did. And so, in that sense, he was smarter than the previous apartheid rulers. He was never able to say it was fundamentally evil and that death and dying was on his plate. Even during his years during the transition, the death squads was still rampant. And he knew about them and had done nothing to dismantle them.

CO: Is it your sense that he opened up these gates, but he thought he could control it? He thought it would be measured and that he would somehow, in the course of his efforts, be able to maintain this space and... and have control to some degree for white people in South Africa?

AML: Yeah, I think... I think in a sense that I think his on racism, thought that he could outmanoeuvre the majority of the nation. Whereas the nation was clearly totally determined to have democracy. The sad thing, in a way, is that in one sense, he was successful because a disproportionate amount of wealth still remains in white hands.

CO: After the Truth and Reconciliation Commission hearings, it was Mr de Klerk... he was accused of having, quote, his hands soaked in blood. So it wasn't just that his regime or that's what he had been part of, his family been part of, but he was directly accused of having been an accomplice in those... in those murders and in those death squads. Isn't that the case?

AML: That is true. He... He presided over the State Security Council, of which decisions were made as to which activists would be killed. And that is precisely what some of the families have been crying out for him to account for that. And that is... that has not happened. And even as he was receiving the Nobel Prize, there were... the military and the police were continuing to act with great violence against activists. And violence... while they negotiated in the day, they continued to kill at night.

CO: Nelson Mandela kept Mr de Klerk on as his deputy president. Years later, on Mr. de Klerk’s 70th birthday, Mr. Mandela said You and I have had our differences, some of them very public. Our basic respect for one another has, however, never diminished. What was truly the relationship between Nelson Mandela and F.W. de Klerk?

AML: Well, I think in a way, that showed Madiba's -- Nelson Mandela's -- magnanimity. I think it was as far as I could see, it was a complicated kind of relationship, but it was typical of Mandela that on de Klerk’s 70th birthday, he would speak with such generosity. Because I think what it showed was just how deeply committed Nelson Mandela was to building one united South Africa. And that, I think, is the way we can understand the generosity of those comments.

CO: I'm sure you're seeing today that many South Africans, especially young people, refuse to accept that Mr de Klerk should be... should have any kind of a state funeral or be celebrated or recognized even in his death. What do you think?

AML: That’s a complicated question. You see, it's interesting. When he denied over the last two years that apartheid was a crime against humanity, President Ramaphosa referred to him as a former deputy president. Because he was deputy president of Democratic South Africa, and for that, he should be recognized, and he should be recognized for his role, albeit under huge pressure to free Nelson Mandela to dismantle apartheid. So we need to recognize him for that, but also recognize that he also, historically while he was president, was complicit with evil and death and torture. That that's also part of his legacy, and we shouldn't romanticize that. And that he never recounted for that complicity.

CO: Father Lapsley, we'll leave it there. And I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

AML: Thank you very much indeed. Goodnight.

CO: Goodnight.

CH: Alan Michael Lapsley is a South African Anglican priest and a former anti-apartheid activist. We reached him in Cape Town, South Africa.

[Music: Horns!!!]

Late Train Lawsuit

CH: The people who make the trains run, like those of us who work in radio, understand one thing very well: the fundamental importance of precision, execution and --

[Sound: A train horn and the dinging bells of safety gates]

CH: OK, you kind of stepped on my point there. I was going to say "the fundamental importance of precision and timing". Especially in Japan. Where, you might remember, one rail company apologized in 2018 for the "great inconvenience" to passengers when one of its trains left the station 25 seconds early. Sorry I was just waiting for a train sound effect. Never mind. OK. In Japan, the trains are famously always ex --

[Sound: A train horn and the dinging bells of safety gates]

CH: Famously always exactly on time. So every train company employee has to be always exactly on time. And if they're not, there's hell to pay. Or, in this case, 61 cents Canadian to pay. That's how much the company JR West docked one unnamed employee's pay, after his train ran two minutes late last June because of a minor error. Now, the fine’s more of a symbolic gesture than anything. But the employee didn't appreciate the symbolism. He argues that the train was empty, and he wasn't picking up passengers. Therefore, service wasn't delayed, and no one was inconvenienced. So he's suing JR West for around 24,000 dollars Canadian, claiming mental anguish. All of this over a train that was two minutes late to pick up no one. And I'm not taking sides, but it really seems like the company's decision --

[Sound: A steam train chugs right along]

CH: Was a little premature. That was a steam train, that's not even the right kind of... you know what? Forget it.

[Music: Acoustic guitar]

Part 3: Oklahoma Opioid Payout Ruling, Encore: Lee Maracle Obit

Oklahoma Opioid Payout Ruling

Guest: Brad Beckworth

CH: If Oklahoma was counting on the payout ordered, it is nearly half-a-billion dollars short now. This week, the state's Supreme Court overturned a ruling requiring the drug maker Johnson & Johnson to pay Oklahoma for its role in the opioid crisis there. The original ruling had found that company created a deadly public nuisance by providing ready access to its highly addictive painkillers. But now, the appeal court has agreed with the company's argument that nuisance laws aren't meant to deal with big policy questions like this. Brad Beckworth was one of the lawyers who helped Oklahoma win its case in 2019. We reached him in Austin, Texas.

CO: Mr. Beckworth, how big a blow is this decision for people who want to hold drug companies to account for this opioid crisis?

BRAD BECKWORTH: The decision if the Oklahoma court is definitely one that hurts. We have been and will continue to be a strong voice and advocate for all the moms and daughters and fathers and sons who have lost because of the greed of these opioid manufacturers and distributors. So, the state Supreme Court throwing out this recovery for those people definitely is something that hurts, but we've had a good strategy to help them. So far, that's worked very well, and we're going to continue to fight for them.

CO: This was, as you point out, the highest court in Oklahoma has thrown out this 2019 ruling that required Johnson & Johnson to pay half a billion... almost a half a billion dollars for its role in the opioid epidemic. And you had said that the ruling was a first step in undoing the damage that the opioids have done in that state. Can you just remind us of what the damage has been?

BB: You bet. Oklahoma has been one of the most dramatically impacted by the pharmaceutical-driven opioid crisis. We've had several thousand people die. We've had tens of thousands who are reported to have opioid use disorder. And we have a lot of children that have been placed into foster homes or adoptions or orphanages because their parents have been left either dead or unable to provide for their families or take care of anyone else. And so, this has been a tremendous drain on the state. And we proved at trial that in order to get the state back in a condition that it was in prior to 1995, which is the time when Johnson & Johnson and Perdue and others started this, you know, false marketing campaign, that it would take somewhere between 10 and $20 billion and programs, re-education and treatment to get the state back on all fours.

CO: There are thousands of lawsuits against the drug companies for these pharmaceuticals. You mentioned Purdue Pharma. They settled a number of them, and they're against the company and the owners of the company, the Sacklers. In this case, you were using the public nuisance laws. What were the arguments you were using under the public nuisance laws in Oklahoma?

BB: So Oklahoma's public nuisance law has been on the books for over a century, and it basically holds that if you engage in unlawful conduct, and that can be false and misleading statements that render people unsafe or cause a problem to public health or even offend decency, that you can force them to abate the harm they've caused and they pay what it takes to remediate the harm they cause, clean up their own mess. And so what we did is we... we started out and phase one of this litigation by going after the manufacturers of opioids who really drove the public health crisis we had in Oklahoma. And it's important to remember that this trial and judgement was actually just a small part of what we've accomplished here. The state of Oklahoma, through its public nuisance strategy, has put in the bank $370 million to date.

CO: But now that the appeal court, though, has ruled that public nuisance laws are not meant to be used in this way, in cases like this with pharmaceutical companies, that Oklahoma is not the only state that was using this argument, right? So what happens to these other cases in the United States?

BB: Well, it depends. So there's been a global settlement with the three primary distributors and with Johnson & Johnson. So let's break that down. Purdue's gone. They're in bankruptcy. So anyone that didn't push them to trial like we did will get pennies on the dollar, maybe out of the bankruptcy. We beat that problem. We've been paid. We also settled with Teva Pharmaceuticals for $85 million. We already have that money. Endo for $9.5 million. McKinsey for nine million. So, the remaining states haven't pushed litigation to trial like we did. Most of those states have settled, so I don't think the public nuisance issue is going to be that big a deal because there's not going to be many states going to trial. Now, there are a few states, Washington state being one of them, that has opted not to participate in these global settlements. They will start trial here in a week or two against the distributors. They're asserting a public nuisance theory there. We, my firm, has represent the state of Washington in a case against Johnson & Johnson and Jensen on behalf of the state, and we'll start trial there in May.

CO: I'm getting the impression that this is not over for Johnson & Johnson and the state of Oklahoma?

BB: Well, the attorney general has several avenues here to deal with Johnson & Johnson, and that'll be a decision that he and his office will make. And depending on what they choose, the lawyers here are committed to fighting for the victims of Oklahoma until we have no more breath. This group of lawyers will continue to fight and in Washington as well. And I think for your listeners and for anyone following this, it's very important to know that the Supreme Court of Oklahoma did not disagree with the factual findings of this court. It made its decision on a legal issue about whether the claim allowed us to recover money. But the trial court here found that this company engaged in a 20-year-long campaign of lies that killed people. And the trial court's exact finding was that they created a menace to the state of Oklahoma and its public health. That finding, while we won't be able to use it to recover, that finding will never go away. The public learnt the truth about this company and what it did, and its role in the public crisis we have here. They... they marketed these drugs, and they killed a lot of people.

CO: Mr. Beckworth, we will leave it there. And I appreciate speaking with you today. Thank you.

BB: Hey, thank you.

CH: Brad Beckworth is one of the lawyers representing Oklahoma in its case against Johnson & Johnson. We reached Mr. Beckworth in Austin, Texas.

[Music: Uke!!]

Encore: Lee Maracle Obit

CH: Lee Maracle was a mentor to many. You need only turn to Twitter today to find ample evidence of that. Indigenous writers including Cherie Dimaline, Katherena Vermette and Billy-Ray Belcourt cite her not just among their influences -- but among the people who have kept them grounded, and kept them going. In the wake of Lee Maracle's death this morning, Terese Marie Mailhot -- an author from Seabird Island Band -- wrote, "She gave me safety when I needed it." And Joshua Whitehead, a two-spirit, Oji-nêhiyaw writer from Peguis First Nation said, "She raised me into a space where I could partake in ceremony and community. She gifted me the rock I needed." It's the kind of gift the late Sto:lo writer gave freely -- including to her own children, one of whom is inter-disciplinary artist Sid Bobb.

SOUNDCLIP

SID BOBB: She was a tremendous educator and mentor. She mentored so many writers. She wanted the full literary Indigenous voice to... to, you know, continue to blossom. And she, you know, she mentored my daughter as a writer. Her daughters, Columpa and Tania, wrote a poetry book, Hope Matters. She also mentored. She never... she rarely refused mentorship, you know? She mentored so many... so many people. First Nations, you know, Indigenous, Metis. And those barriers didn't exist. You know, she had lots of... lots of work. She was a fantastic gardener, community member and she was committed to big things. And all the love that she put out, you know, across this country and throughout the world. You know, it was for humanity. And, yeah, she... she was a tremendous person full of integrity, and she demanded integrity anywhere she went. And I hope one day that Canada can move towards that integrity that my mum carried.

CH: Sid Bobb, speaking with CBC Vancouver about his mother, Lee Maracle. Ms. Maracle died this morning. She was 71. Two years ago, she was Carol's guest here on As It Happens, shortly after her novel Celia's Song earned her a nomination for the prestigious Neustadt International Prize for Literature. From our archives, here's part of that conversation.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: Lee Maracle, first of all, big welcome to As It Happens, what a pleasure to have you in the studio.

LEE MARACLE: Oh, thank very much for inviting me.

CO: Now we are going to talk about what you are shortlisted for — a finalist for — which is this prize, a Neustadt Prize. The American Nobel as they call it. And congratulations on that first of all.

LM: Oh, thank you very much.

CO: Celia's Song has been on every list in Canada. It's been lauded, celebrated, and yet, where is the recognition for this novel here in this country?

LM: I think that Canada has a difficult time with Indigenous women writers generally. And I think that Marilyn Dumont said it best: If you're a woman, you’ll have a hard time. I'm not the only one that's gone unrecognized. Some of our really fine poets like Marilyn Dumont — and there's quite a number of Indigenous women writers that have not been recognized, Katherena Vermette…

CO: Katherena Vermette, who was the one who nominated you for this Neustadt Prize.

LM: Yes, shes got American awards before. She’s got Canadian awards for The Break.

CO: Why is that? Why do you think that because women writers are very well regarded in Canada, why do you think that Indigenous women writers aren’t?

LM: I don't know the answer that. Some white person that's figured it out has to tell us that.

CO: So it’s not just sexism, it's racism?

LM: Yeah.

CO: This book — Celia’s Song — is a story that's been incubating in you for a long time, isn't it? I mean Celia, this character was in Ravensong.

LM: Yes, she was. [slight chuckle] She was seven in Ravensong.

CO: Yeah.

LM: And it wasn't really incubating. Quite a number of Indigenous people asked me why I disappeared her first novel? And I said well, I wanted to create a strong character that was a child that disappeared, so people knew how it felt for us to have our children disappear. And I achieved that with Ravensong, but people kept telling me I should tell the story of Celia. And she's a seer, in fact. And she grows up without elders, and so she thinks she's crazy, and half the village does too. And it turns out that she's a seer, and her nephew is as well. And she discovers that during the course of the novel, so there's a number of threads to Celia's Song that originate in Ravensong. They get resolved through the healing period, and that happened in my life, in fact. I grew up in the 50s, and the 50s and the and the 80s up to 89 were very different periods in our life. I wanted to capture both those periods through these two women. And I think I also wanted to create a village.

CO: And this is a this is the Coast Salish village that you have created. And we meet Celia as she's in her 40s. she's known tremendous tragedy and heartbreak before we even meet her. And well, and then there's of course the voice of Mink — the shapeshifter who’s tell the story.

LM: Yes, I like our little trickster.

CO: The little trickster. And so we think of though the Raven has been the trickster traditionally. Why mink.

LM: No, not traditionally for us. Traditionally for white people. Raven’s name means “the transformer”. A trickster does not create heaven and earth and the sun and that sort of thing. Raven's jobs big job. If anything, he's a super-sociologist that's I think of Raven. But the Trickster is a child figure. I don't know why we picked a mink [CO laughs] because Minks are awful beasts.

CO: [CO and LM laugh] they are nasty little creatures.

LM: Nasty little creatures they find out.

CO: Absolutely. But at the same time, Mink is bearing witness. This is this is all about witnessing what happens when, as you point out, children are taken away from communities repeatedly, generation after generation, what that does.

LM: And it continues.

CO: And it continues. And there's one… I don't know how you manage to bring humour into something as dark as these stories, but there is just one that I just want to refer to — which is this missionary who's trying to convince a man to give his daughters Christian names so they can sit in the lap of Jesus.

LM: [laughing] Yeah, how big is this guy?

CO: Honestly. But humour is very important. Your laugh, of course, which makes everyone laugh along with you. But humour is a big part of your work, isn't it?

LM: Yeah, it is.

CO: Despite the darkness of these stories.

LM: Yeah, I want to get through it, and get past it. And humour is like a push. When you want to sit down, humour stands you up and pushes you forward so that you can get through it. And we can't get through it by dodging the dark. That's like having no night. You have to have a night. So getting through the dark, you need that motivating force — which is a little bit of a push every now and then. And that's what humour serves in all of our stories.

CO: You are a storyteller. Because it's a big deal to take on that role, isn't it? I mean people are always saying I got a book on me. But to actually do, to actually become a storyteller, to actually take on that role, how much trepidation did you approach that?

LM: I think my grandmother said that I was very lucky because I didn't go to residential school. I had the comfort and the boost of family. And my grandfather was instrumental in getting me to keep the imagination alive. And it started with me lying to him. [CO laughs] And I do recall him staring at me going through all these emotional shifts. Then all of a sudden, he laughs and says that's a pretty good story. Now I'm going to tell you one, and you tell it back different but the same. So he tells me a story, I tell it back what I think is different but the same, until he finally says to me now you're going to go to school and learn to write. And those white people, they really like that stuff. You can make a lot of money writing books like that. But don't you ever lie to me again. [CO and LM laugh]

CO: But you say you say in this book, and you say it elsewhere, that all of this is true even if it didn’t happen. What do you mean by that?

LM: The original story's true. Because of the lessons that are contained in it. That's where the truth lies. And if you tell it back different but the same, and apply it to today, you can create fiction from it, but it's still true. And it happened even if it didn't. You may not have witnessed this, but somewhere in this country this actually happened. And that's true of Celia's Song.

CO: But at the same time, we have experience where people decide that they are going to imagine the experiences of others, and write those experiences, and write those stories. And you have had great issue with that. It has to be your story. It has to come from you, right?

LM: Yeah, it has to come from your experience. You have to know something about that. Just making crap up, you sound stupid after a while.

CO: I want to get back to Celia’s Song, and I'd like it very much if you would read a passage that well, we’ve chosen from it if that’s all right with you. And it's bookmarked. I can pass that on to you.

LM: Okay All right.

CO: And maybe set it up before you.

LM: Oh yes. Okay. So I know a lot of people talk about how you know Europeans did a lot of things to us which you know destroyed our communities, and that's true. But I was having a chat with a pair of young girls, and one of them said you know we didn't need these people to come along and wreck our lives. We did it once before. And so we started talking about our stories of implosion that occurred before, and the stories that came out of them to keep from falling into the pit again. But residential schools separated us from those stories. And, of course, the songs and the culture that would have prevented us from falling in the pit.

CO: All of which was forbidden to the students — even when they were home.

LM: Exactly, yeah. So that made it impossible. But now that we've been released from that since I think 62 or so, and we started telling the stories again. And so I decided that I wanted to write from those stories. And I wanted to do that with the double-headed serpent — what we call the split mind. So that's the beginning is the actual story of the double-headed serpent. The serpent has two heads. When they go to war, no good can come of it. That's what the old folks say. Anyway, they were talking about the vote. The government gave them the vote and took away other things. Nothing had been solved by the vote. Before the vote, families talked to each other through their men — From men to women, from women to women, between children who overheard the women, back to the men, then back to the chief. By the time a decision was made, it was clear what needed to be done because much talk had already occurred. Many sides had been seen. Much had changed, and much value had been added. The decision was obvious. Everyone knew what part they were going to play when the plan was finally unfurled. If every family sent someone to make the decision happen, it flew. If there was a missing family, the chief turned over the dirt he stood on, shrugged, and went home. That was it. Mama had hit the nail on the head. The chatter died with the vote. Celia thinks about the healing circle she belongs to. They talk to each other, but it was limited to disclosing certain trauma or rage. That kind of talk feels narrow and tiring. She knows they need it, but now she wants it peppered between the other kinds of conversations they never seem to have any more. I smile. Celia is on her way. She doesn't know she shifted direction, but there it is. She's on her way home to the old ways. The vote was silent — ominous in its lack of community and collaboration. It stood between them and the ordinary conversations they needed to have to make decisions about their lives. The vote was powerful in its ability to silence the village and isolate each from the other. It was like the white men; all-powerful and silencing, except it was invisible.

CO: That is Lee Maracle, reading from her extraordinary novel Celia's Song. Snd she is with me here in the As It Happens studio, and we're talking about that book. And this idea of talking about the vote because we are now headed into another…

LM: Election.

CO: In the last election, that brought us the Trudeau government, you encouraged Indigenous people to vote — to get out to vote.

LM: I did. And I did because of the body bags that Harper sent us instead of medicine during that flu when so many young people in the north died.

CO: Just to give context, that is exactly what happened. Instead that they sent them gloves, masks, and body bags — and not the medicine.

LM: And so we decided that was enough. And there was these gals that started the Rock the Vote movement because they wanted Harper out as well. And so I hooked up with them actually. I just joined that group, and it became a powerful movement via the Internet. Because the death was too much — outright killing us was too much. They don't send us body bags now.

CO: How important was it to you that Jody Wilson-Raybould became the justice minister?

LM: I thought it was a coup for her. I've known Jody's father all my life. Both of us share an uncle. And so we’re connected. Jody is the same age as one one of my daughters, and her and her sister wanted to be prime minister one day.

CO: That’s what her father has said to Trudeau, in fact. That yeah, maybe one day that maybe my daughter wants to be prime minister, and she'll be there.

LM: Yes. Yes. And I think she was heading in that direction. But they came to a set over Lavalin, and she felt she had to stand by her principles.

CO: What we've gone through in these past four years we have seen more developments on many fronts. We've seen the Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls Commission report, we have seen more developments and within the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, we have seen an awareness among Canadians, I believe, that didn't exist before. Have you seen progress?

LM: Progress lies in this. It's in one of the calls for action, which is financial equality. That's where progress will be seen. I know that in the 70s and 80s, they trained an awful lot of peacekeepers in our communities and then didn't hire them because there's don't budget for it. Now Canadians have a budget for peacekeeping, or cops, or policing, or whatever you want to call it. We don't. We have programs, and they change year to year. So there's no possibility of any individual as a family person gaining an income and gaining a long-term plan for the family, for college, for retirement, for whatever the case is so that they can survive as a family as Canadians do. You know people can plan, they can do financial planning. We cannot because we have programs instead of budgets. We also don't have our trust funds. They take took our money, put it in this trust fund, and then we can't access it. And, of course, we can't develop a budget from it. They won't give us something permanent on which we can build. That's a choice. That's a choice they're making. You see, if they chose to say okay, we're going to hand the money over to you and you're going to build on it or not, then that would be different. It would be a whole different can of worms.

CO: Why do you think they don't do it? Why do you think they — the government — does not do that?

LM: I don't know. I told you, I'm not racist in charge. I’m really not. I wouldn't do that to another human being. I haven't got a clue what someone would do that to us. Canadians have to figure that out.

CO: And you have said the Canadians have to come to terms, they have to accept the responsibility for what…

LM: They do — for what their government does.

CO: And say not the Canadian state, but the Canadian people have to take this responsibility. How would they do that? Because as people say ok, well, that was pretty bad what happened. Let's move on. That's not what you're talking about.

LM: No.

CO: What do Canadian people have to do to take responsibility for what happened to First Nations Indigenous people in this country?

LM: I think if a Canadian sat down and thought about that genuinely, they'd figure it out.

CO: Well, they haven't at this point, have they?

LM: No. But they do have to. Why is it that we are five to seven per cent of the population, and get point-nine-eight per cent of the gross national product? Why is the inequity that sharp? Why is it that we're killed four times more? A Canadian could say well, I'm going to try and figure this out. Like that Canadian who discovered the experimentation with starvation of Indigenous children during residential school, he decided to look at something.

CO: That was supposed to come out of the truth and reconciliation process. It didn't, did it?

LM: We haven't reconciled with anyone that I know of. When those calls to action are met then we can reconcile. But until those calls to action are answered, there's nothing to reconcile over because nothing's changed.

CO: So there hasn't been any progress?

LM: I didn't say that. I just said that until they're all satisfied — 94 calls to action. Things are happening, but it takes all 94 calls for us to reconcile. All of them have to be met, and many of them have to be met by government.

CO: I am speaking with Lee Maracle, she’s in the As It Happens studio with me. She's an author. She is an artist. She's a poet. She's a mentor of many. And just there's a quote from Jeremy Dutcher during the Polaris Music Prize last year. He said that Canada, you you're in the midst of an Indigenous renaissance. Would you agree with that?

LM: I think the vice is off, and we're showing what we were always capable of. A renaissance was always going on. In 1948, for instance, the poles started being sold all over the world. And a single woman who lived at Stanley Park asked all the Indigenous artists to hold back on selling their poles until we got a fair price. That was the first renaissance that was in my lifetime. Again, our stories came back in the 60s. And we started telling them again. And we started talking about them again. This had no effect on Canadians, so Canadians did not see the renaissance. But that is the renaissance that started everything else that exists right now. And then the human rights legislation in 1968 led to a number of changes — including us going to school. That's another renaissance. There's been many different renaissance movements among us. And I think that this is the one they paid attention to because this is the one with a lot of young boys at the head of it. [CO and LM laugh]

CO: Do you feel optimistic? Do you feel positive? Do you feel there's something I guess good developing because there's been as we talked about the beginning so much darkness? Do you do see light?

LM: I’m never not optimistic. I’m a very optimistic person. Some people say groundlessly so. Transformation is a multi-stage process. The transformation began in 1492, when the Europeans first came. They were illiterate, unwashed, unclean, and sick, and violent — very, very violent. And over the centuries, they have become less violent, much cleaner, and more human, and democracy's been brought to them. The first democracy in the world was in North America, and it was a thousand years ago. And it was the first democracy where women actually had the same power as men. And it took till 1962 to bring that home to Europeans. So Europeans have been undergoing transformation since they first arrived. They behave as though they brought all this civilization. But, in fact, they brought no civilization. They came here uncivilized and ill-disciplined — and acquired through cultural collision and cultural interaction a human way to be. And we are coming closer and closer to one another in terms of how we are. But that doesn't mean we're necessarily going to like each other — because we're not the same.

CO: How did you get to be so wise, Lee Maracle? I’ve watched you on stage. I've seen rooms full of people riveted, listening, hanging on every word, trying to learn from that. You just you are worldly wise. You have a depth, a knowledge.

LM: Yeah, I think my elders did. This is the first time I say this to Europeans. But Grandpa Thomas was 108 when he died. And I was in the room, and he was holding my hand. And he said stay with me till I'm gone. I said okay; I was four. So he dies, and then the people believe that everything he knows I now know. Then they took me around to all the elders that they do all over Salish territory, and everyone told me stories and taught me things. And it took about till I was about nine or ten for that education to be completed. And then I had conversations with my grandfather right until he died. And with my taha until she passed on. And with a tremendously powerful intellectual among us, until he died. And out of that came my propensity toward wisdom. I just had this happen to me the other day this fellow says what about vengeance and this sort of thing? You know why aren't you angry? And I said well, that's not my culture. It's not who I am. I'm the great, great granddaughter of the princess of peace. And the peace is more important than anything — the peace that's inside. If you're quarrelling with yourself then you haven't made the right decision. And I learned that as a small child. So whatever wisdom I have comes from that. The piece inside is more important than being alive.

CO: Lee Maracle, thank you for your wisdom, for your books, and for being here today.

LM: Yeah, thank you for having me. It's good. Thank you very much.

CH: Sto:lo writer, poet, scholar and activist Lee Maracle, speaking with Carol on As It Happens in September, 2019. Ms. Maracle died early this morning. For more highlights from her conversation with Carol, visit our website at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

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November 11, 2021 Episode Transcript

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