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The AIH Transcript For November 10, 2021

[hosts]Carol Off, Chris Howden[/hosts]

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[music: theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

CO: A rising tide does not lift all boats. The first draft of the COP26 climate agreement is out -- our guest says it needs a lot of work if the world's most vulnerable nations are going to stay afloat.

CH: Patently unreasonable. A dispute between Moderna and the U.S. government over who invented a key component in a COVID-19 vaccine is less about bragging rights -- and more about profits and control.

CO: Lost to the sands of time. In the dunes of a Utah ghost town, archeologists recover the remnants of a home once occupied by Chinese rail workers -- and help unlock a neglected history.

CH: A walk all over the wild side. We'll talk to the 83-year-old who's just become the oldest man to hike all 3,500 kilometres of the Appalachian Trail.

CO: Well, at least they safely completed one splashdown. A broken toilet aboard their ride home meant astronauts returning to Earth after 200 days in space this week had to resort to Plan D: diapers.

CH: And... heel-bent. Former pro wrestling villain Raymond Rougeau wins the mayoral race in a small Quebec town -- and while he appreciates the political cheers, he says there was something special about wrestling fans' jeers.

CH: As It Happens the Wednesday edition. Radio that's glad we were able to schedule an interview. He… he’s a tough guy to pin down.

[music: theme]

Part 1: COP26: Draft Deal, Utah Ghost Town Dig, Oldest Appalachian Trail Hiker

COP26: Draft Deal

Guest: Mark Lynas

CH: A week-and-a-half into the COP26 Conference in Glasgow, there's a first draft of a climate agreement. The language is supposed to build on the 2015 Paris agreement, and bind the nations of the world to limit global warming to 1.5 degrees. But environmental activists are joining with vulnerable small island nations to warn that the text so far won't come anywhere close to that crucial target. Mark Lynas is an environment writer who's advising the Maldives -- a nation of islands in the Indian Ocean -- at COP26. We reached him in Shrewsbury, U.K.

CO: Mark, what's at stake for the Maldives if this first draft isn't changed?

MARK LYNAS: Well, the Maldives is one of those countries that, for its survival, depends on the 1.5-degree goal not being dropped. It's only a metre or so above sea level. And unless we can agree internationally to keep to 1.5 degrees, the Maldives and all of the other small island states are likely to be flooded. And there'll be catastrophic climate impacts across all of the other vulnerable countries. And, of course, including the rest of us, wildfires and droughts and floods and other kinds of climate impacts that we've become familiar with will become that much worse. So that's why one 1.5 was agreed at Paris as the crucial goal for the international community, and that's what we're trying to still salvage here in Glasgow.

CO: And we know that slogan "1.5 to Stay Alive". That has been what we've heard for now years from, especially island nations. What we're hearing in these past few days is that, well, maybe two degrees is good enough. Maybe we're not going to get to where we want. Maybe that we're not… according to Climate Action Tracker, it might not even get lower than 2.4 Celsius. So what has to change in the next few days to make that any different?

ML: Well, it's not just what has to happen... what has to happen in these next few days. It's... the difference between the 2.4 degrees in the Climate Action Tracker and the more hopeful outlooks to 1.8, 1.7, which were mooted earlier last week, is the difference between short-term and long-term goals essentially. Depends on whether you believe that all of the big emitting countries are going to meet their zero-carbon targets. You know, even China and even India now have... have zero carbon targets. So most of the world's, you know, big... big economies are covered by net-zero, but they don't have the policies in place to actually reach them in the short to medium term. So if you're more pessimistic about that and you don't believe that governments will change their course, then 2.4 looks more realistic. Of course, that's a death sentence for the climate-vulnerable countries. So the issue now is really to the island states and for the Climate Vulnerable Forum, which is the most climate-vulnerable nations, is to try and get an outcome in Glasgow, which means that countries have to come back every single year to increase the ambition of their emissions cuts. That's what's really what they're looking for as an outcome from this COP.

CO: What we've seen just in recent hours is that some kind of a framework agreement between China and the United States for methane emissions, forestry, for coal. But are you seeing anything else that might very well make a breakthrough at this point?

ML: Yeah. Well, the methane stuff was... was last week, same with forestry. There's also a sort of side agreement on coal and on cars as well and on phasing out the internal combustion engine. So in some ways, the side agreements have been more important of this COP than the actual text of the negotiations. But what the vulnerable countries are calling for now is for a kind of what they call the Glasgow Emergency Pact. So that, you know, whatever we come out with at the end of this week isn't the last word. We have to keep on coming back every single year and making sure that we can increase the ambition so that countries actually start to take the measures they'll need to get to where we need to be in 2030. And after that, towards meeting their net-zero targets. Because, at the moment, the policies the governments actually have are still a very long way off 1.5.

CO: And so, how much hope do you have that... that you'll get at least that agreement to keep working on this and every year have to have established those targets and commitments?

ML: I don't know? I mean, I've been on this beat for quite a long time. I mean, I started working on climate change support, [chuckle] well, 20 years ago, believe it or not. And you know, at that point, we were looking at four, five, you know, even six degrees. I wrote a book called Six Degrees, which stuck to those worst-case outcomes. And I think those are now pretty much off the table. Even 2.7 or whatever it was we were starting with is a lot better than four or five degrees, which is pretty much like, you know, making most of the planet uninhabitable. So let's at least bank the successes that we've got, try to continue increasing ambition, try to keep the 1.5-degree goal. And, you know, I think we really are seeing a transformation, a tipping point now of the global economy. Were moving definitively away from the age of fossil fuels. And, you know, that's something to celebrate, and it's... it's important that everyone understands that we are... we will not be burning oil, coal and gas in a fairly short space of time, a matter of two or three decades. So we're going to see this huge transformation. I think it's now unstoppable, but the question is whether it can happen in time to save the island nations?

CO: Well, on those commitments, Australia, Russia, Saudi Arabia are not showing much openness to this idea that we're going to not have fossil fuel emissions anywhere in the near future. So if we don't get them to sign on, where does this go?

ML: Well, the three countries you named, Australia, Russia and Saudi Arabia, are the three big fossil fuel producers. So they, of course, will be the last to sign onto any agreement. But the important thing is that the other countries in the world stop buying their products. You know, they can… the oil will stay in the ground, then the coal will stay unmined if nobody's burning coal or putting oil into car engines. So the issue is that we've got to transform towards a clean technology economy in terms of power, in terms of our transport, our industry, all the rest of it. And we've got to stop buying the coal and the oil and the gas from the countries that produce it. And then those countries will also change. So, I think that's the direction we've got to go in if we're going to look really at this... this enormous transformation that we need.

CO: One of those fossil fuel exporters is, of course, Canada, which has had a net-zero carbon commitment for 2050. But at the same time, we see in the Climate Action Tracker, they have given Canada a highly insufficient grade. And so, even countries like Canada that make these declarations? Do you think there's a lot of greenwashing going on here?

ML: Well, I mean, what happens in 2050 is still a long way off. So it's important to hold Justin Trudeau's feet to the fire and try and get the shorter-term goals, which are consistent with making that trajectory down to zero carbon in 2050. I mean, the U.K. is actually, you know, [chuckle] I'm not being British here. But we have a Climate Change Act in the U.K., which actually mandates carbon budgets, which steadily decline towards the net-zero target in 2050. So at least we can see what the pathway is and check that we're still on it all the time. I don't think that that exists in Canada. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong. But it's important that we... you know, that you can see the pathway and you can see that you're keeping to the... to the goals that you need in the short to medium term to meet that long-term goal. Otherwise, you know, potentially you carry on producing oil from the oilsands and all the rest of it. And, you know, the 2050 goal just seems a long way off, and nothing really changes. So, you know, I think that's... that's the difference really here between the worst-case outcome and something which is... which is actually much more positive.

CO: Well, Mark, you sound cautiously optimistic. I don't know how many people share that with you, but we'll be watching the next couple of days. Thank you.

ML: OK. Me too. Thanks very much.

CH: Mark Lynas is an environment writer who's advising the Maldives at the COP26 Climate Change Conference. He's in Shrewsbury, England.

[Music: Glassy guitar]

Utah Ghost Town Dig

Guest: Chris Merritt

CH: Their labour was indispensable to the building and maintenance of the trans-continental railroad. But the history of how they really lived has been largely lost. So when the remains of a home once occupied by Chinese immigrant railroad workers was discovered in the ghost town of Terrace, Utah -- it was a very big deal to the likes of archeologist Chris Merritt. And it may be an even bigger deal to the descendants of workers like the ones who once made their home in Terrace. We reached archeologist and State Historic Preservation Officer Chris Merritt in St. George, Utah.

CO: Chris, I know you have studied how Chinese workers lived in Utah for a long time, but what stories does this house -- the discovery of this latest structure -- what does it tell you?

CHRIS MERRITT: Yeah, the... the beauty of this excavation that we've been able to do is it's the first fully-excavated Chinese railroad workers’ home on the trans-continental railroad in the United States. And while it is a very small piece of a very big story, this house can give us a much clearer picture of the life of a worker during that mid-19th century period. The artifacts that were recovered really provide a window to the past that we do not get through historical records because of the... the Chinese treatment in historic records. It largely excluded them systematically from being documented or their stories or their perspective. So the archaeology in this case -- this one house -- is actually able to help us convey that lived experience of 150 years ago.

CO: How many people do you think maybe lived in this house?

CM: Great question! The house is modest. You know, we think of house scales and 2021 terms, but this one was about seven feet by about 12 feet, so it’s about three metres wide by about two-and-a-half metres long. And that probably was two to four men. So being able to share the space, communally cook, was able to spread their low wages further by having this larger community within even their small home. Stacked in bunk beds, but pretty tight, but also kept you warm in the winter.

CO: This structure is… it’s more than just the building, the timbers you found. You found all kinds of artifacts, you're saying. So, what sort of picture does it begin to paint?

CM: Yeah. The... the starting from the structure is that everything, all the wood was probably salvaged timber from the railroad. And then, the artifacts that we found within that home really tell us the personal lives of these folks. And some of the most exciting things that we find are some of the most mundane to others. But if you put it in perspective, it helps us reconstruct the past. A good example of that is we actually uncovered a lot of evidence of their foodways ways. And so we found peanut shells. We found coconut shell. We found melon seeds from Chinese melon, sort of a cantaloupe. And also, even Chinese pitted dates. In nearby units, we found cuttlefish, the little squid. And all of these were being imported from China and then being consumed in this house in a traditional Cantonese food way, a South China food way. And that, to me, is dramatic. You think about how far removed these immigrants were from their home, but being able to practice traditional food was able that way to connect to their... their home country while they were in this very rural and remote part of Utah.

CO: We’re talking 150 years ago, right?

CM: Yeah, yeah! So, you know, the trans-continental railroad down here in the United States was finished in 1869. And 13,000 Chinese workers helped build that railroad. And this town of Terrace, which was established in 1869, had the third-largest Chinatown in the state of Utah in 1870. And even though they were getting horrifically low wages, it still was an opportunity for them to support themselves and their families back home in China. And yeah, they lived there from the 1870s into the early part of the 20th century. So this house was probably built 151, 152 years ago and lived in for 30 years by various railroad workers over the course of their lives there.

CO: And was this a single structure? Because there was a community there, so were there other buildings? Were there any... any places where they could commune? Like where there... was there a place to go and get a drink or to buy anything?

CM: Yes. The... because of the size of the Chinese community here, we excavated one house. But in this sand dune on the edge of the Great Salt Lake desert, there does look to be at least 20, 30 additional homes that probably were in this area for the Chinese workers. And through the archaeology we actually discovered, surprisingly, there's a Chinese business on Main Street. So the Chinatown in Terrace is actually across the tracks, behind the industrial works and a far distance from the white side of town, the Main Street and the residential part where the European-Americans would have been living. And so that spatial segregation is important. But we did find through the archaeology a cluster of materials on Main Street in Terrace that never shows up in historic records. So was that a store, a laundry, a restaurant? We're not sure yet, but hopefully, future projects will help us uncover more of the dynamics of this Chinese community.

CO: But you have had close contact with the descendants of these workers, and so what can they contribute about the story of the lives of their relatives?

CM: Everything, including checking the archaeologist that's doing the work by making sure that we're not looking through the lens of a middle-class white American. And so yes, we built a very strong relationship with the Chinese Railroad Workers Descendant Association. And this was a really important facet for us as archaeologists is to make sure that descendant community is engaged, they're supportive, and really, we're taking their... our orders from them. They're the ones that pushed us to go out and do this excavation because they saw their history being removed by looters and vandals. And then, also living the experience of having their historical contributions to the railroad be largely omitted from most mainstream histories of the trans-continental. So this was a way for them to recapture that history. And even cooler is to have those community members out there in the middle of nowhere helping us excavate. And some of the members of the Chinese community camped with us all week, worked side by side with us. State Representative Karen Kwan was supportive of the project, and she came out multiple days to help support it. And that, to me, is meaningful archaeology. And it's because we're working directly with the descendant community and working in collaboration, not dictation.

CO: It's a great story, Chris. And I'm glad you're able to start piecing some of it together. And thanks for speaking with us.

CM: Oh, thank you so much. And I appreciate having the opportunity.

CT: Chris Merritt is an archeologist and State Historic Preservation Officer with Utah's Division of State History. We reached him outside Salt Lake City, Utah. And you can find more on that story on our webpage: www.cbc.ca/AIH.

[Music: Electronic]

Oldest Appalachian Trail Hiker

Guest: Sunny "Nimblewill" Eberhart

CH: With his long white locks and unkempt beard, Sunny Eberhart really looks the part of the central-casting mountain-man. And now, the 83-year-old has the record to back-up his rugged appearance. The hiker, who prefers to go by "Nimblewill", has become the oldest man ever to complete the 3,500 kilometre Appalachian Trail, which runs from Georgia to Maine. He's been working on the trail in sections, coming back to knock off parts of it in good weather. Nimblewill finished the feat on Sunday. We reached him today in Weogufka, Alabama.

CO: Nimblewill, what did it feel like the moment you completed your Appalachian Trail hike on Sunday?

SUNNY NIMBLEWILL EBERHART: Oh, a great feeling of relief and satisfaction. Started it with great expectations, a lot of good energy and just a bright, bright feeling and attitude about it. But, oh, Carol, after 261 days of ricocheting around in the rocks and the roots and climbing, and all that was involved with that, it just got the wearing on me. And I've got to be honest with you, I was... I was very relieved. And thank the Lord, I was able to complete it, but I was very, very relieved that the journey was completed.

CO: You're 83 years old. There must have been times when you... when you wanted to throw in the towel on this trail?

SNE: How about every day, Carol? Yeah. How about every day? [CO chuckles] It's just... that's how intense this thing was. You start out in the morning with good energy and great expectations. And fortunately, in my case, most every day, I had acceptable and quite often beautiful weather. But by the end of the day, it wears you down. And most people would think a trek of months and months and climbing up and down over the mountains, and through the valleys of 14, in this case, 15 states, would be the ultimate challenge. That would be the physical aspect of it. But the biggest factor involved in the whole thing that would create a successful ending or a failure in the ending is the mental aspect of it. And so, at the end of the day, the little voice in me is telling me, you dumb jerk. Go home. [CO chuckles] And then in the morning, you got the energy and the desire to go again. So, I'm honest with you. It isn't uncommon... it wasn't uncommon on any given day to feel like I really just needed to quit.

CO: You did take a fall in New Hampshire, and you’re companion with you there asked you if you wanted to just take a break from all this? What did you say at that time?

SNE: I just told him I really need to keep going, put this behind me. I was coming down off of South Kinsman. Kinsman is nothing but a pile of boulders, and most of it is... most of them are oriented vertically, so it's similar to coming down off of a really rugged, irregular bluff or cliff, is what it was. And I tripped and did a head-over-flip completely over. Fortunately, I landed on my pack, bruised my back real bad. Of course, you can imagine how that would shake me up, and it shook me up really bad. That was Odie that was with me. Dear, dear friend. And I just told him, we can't stop and dwell on this. I'm OK. I can move. I'm just going to keep going. We ricocheted on down through the boulders and rocks and got off South Kinsman that day.

CO: You know that there are many Canadians, many people in Quebec, who go to Florida for their winters. You actually walked from Florida to Quebec. Not just... from... from the Florida Keys, you hiked all the way to northern Quebec, right?

SNE: Yes. And in my southbound journey, I had gone around shooting my mouth off about... I was just telling folks, I'm the first person to have hiked the entire Appalachian mountain range on the North American continent. And I had a couple of friends, [chuckle] they quietly got me in the corner knowing a little better geography than I knew and brought to my attention that there are Appalachians in a place called Newfoundland. I went, and I completed Newfoundland. Beautiful, beautiful people. Just startlingly fantastic and unbelievable terrain. There were fjords and Newfoundland. And when folks asked me, Nimblewill, where have you been? What have you been doing? I tell them, well, I’ve been up hiking the Appalachian fjords. My journey was from Key West Florida, picked up the Appalachian Mountains at Flagg Mountain, Alabama, hiked it all the way through the Bell Island, Newfoundland. But Canada, I just… I have a special place in my heart. Just the happy, joyful people along the trail. The Gaspé. Oh my goodness. And I just took great joy in meeting them and spending time with your fellow countrymen.

CO: Well, we would agree with what you're saying. In fact, we just spoke with someone in Bell Island just a few weeks ago. And yeah, it's very impressive, very beautiful. And so, but you have now done this... this walk, this hike. I'm sure it was very exhausting. And maybe it's difficult to think of this now, but what's next? What's your next hike? What’s your next trail?

SNE: [chuckling] OK, Carol. Well, you get to it, don't you? Yeah, and that's a good question. After I finished Route 66, which was a road walk all the way from Chicago to Los Angeles, I just told folks, I said, this is... this is my last hike. I was an old man. Then that was four years ago. So this hike was... was labelled and dubbed “The Last Last Hike”. So, I'm returning to Flagg Mountain tomorrow. It's the southernmost mountain in the Appalachian Mountain range here in Alabama. I caretake the mountain, and I wouldn't say absolutely, definitely, there isn't another hike in my future. But, Carol, I'm 83 years old. [CO chuckles] I've lost my reflexes. My balance are bad. That's why I was falling so much. I just need not to push my luck, I guess. So, I think I'm going to be at least the near short-term and whatever days the good Lord still has planned for me on this... this Earth, I think I'll be content just caretaking Flagg Mountain, and that'll be it. I think that is going to have to be my last hurrah, the last last hike.

CO: Congratulations on that.

SNE: Oh, you're very kind. And I appreciate. It gives me goosebumps.

CO: [chuckling] It's good to talk to you. I think you're an inspiration for many people of all ages to think that they can do the same thing. And Nimblewill, it's good to talk to you. Thank you.

SNE: Yes, ma'am. And to all you great folks in Canada, love you. Bye-bye.

CO: Bye-bye.

CH: Sunny "Nimblewill" Eberhart just set the record for oldest person to hike the Appalachian Trail. We reached him in Weogufka, Alabama.

[Music: Banjo!!!]

Space Diapers

CH: On Monday night, the astronauts of SpaceX's Crew-2 mission splashed down in the Gulf of Mexico -- after 200 majestic and awe-inspiring days in space. John, Reynold, can we get some majestic and awe-inspiring music going here?

[Music: Awe-inspiring, vast movie music]

CH: Yeah, yeah, perfect! Because they were in space. An expanse as vast and mysterious as the universe itself. Literally. So it's no wonder that we revere those brave souls willing to launch themselves into the great airless unknown. In their time aboard the International Space Station, the crew of four conducted numerous important-sounding scientific experiments, and even grew space chili peppers for the first time. Which they ate. A decision that, in hindsight, may have been a… a miscalculation. Because it turned out that there was a problem with the -- actually, Reynold, maybe this is a little too majestic for this part of the… the… yeah, OK. [music fades]

CH: See, there was a problem with the majestic space toilet on their space capsule. Leaving the crew with no choice but to suit up accordingly for the too-long-to-hold it trip back home. In certain custom-made undergarments. Because, trapped as they were, they had nowhere else to go. Even when you're floating in the firmament, things can come crashing down to Earth. And in that moment you might just have to find your own way to imbue it with a diaper sense of purpose.

[Music: Elevator]

Part 2: Moderna U.S. Patent Fight, Raymond Rougeau Mayor

Moderna U.S. Patent Fight

Guest: John Moore

CH: The Moderna vaccine for COVID-19 was hailed as a victory for modern science. But now, the pharmaceutical company is in an ugly dispute with the U.S. government over who exactly deserves credit for inventing it. The vaccine came out of a collaboration between Moderna and the U.S. National Institutes of Health. That agency says its scientists were key -- helping to develop the genetic sequence that prompts the shot to produce an immune response. But Moderna disputes that claim. And it's filed a patent application saying its own employees are the sole inventors. The argument is not just about giving credit where it's due. A lot of money and control are at stake. John Moore is a professor of microbiology and immunology at Cornell University. We reached him in New York.

CO: Professor Moore, what do you make of this move by Moderna to claim its employees are the sole inventors of this key component of the vaccine?

JOHN MOORE: Well, I was saddened and surprised to read the media reports and be told by journalists what appears to be the case. Based on what I've read about, I'm surprised and shocked by it.

CO: What shocks you?

JM: Well, for the past five or six years, Moderna and the Vaccine Research Center at the NIH have been working together on multiple vaccine projects. Initially, Zika and Ebola. But in 2020, they started working together on the COVID vaccines. And last year, we saw what seemed to be a very successful collaborative effort where both parties contributed skill sets to a successful vaccine program. And now we're seeing a dispute that seems to me to be rooted in money.

CO: This is a company, Moderna, was not a household name before COVID-19 and before this vaccine. It was a company that apparently had never brought a product to market. It got $10 billion in U.S. taxpayer funding to develop the vaccine and worked with these government scientists. To your knowledge, what role did the government scientists play in developing the vaccine?

JM: Well, before the spring of 2020, even insiders in the academic and vaccine communities were not terribly familiar with the name Moderna and what their technology was. I mean, so they have credibility because they were interacting with the scientists at the Vaccine Research Center. That was the basis of the company's vaccine development programs. And the scientists at the Vaccine Research Center had clearly been working on immunogen design. Not necessarily the mRNA delivery component, but the immunogen design for well over a decade. They've been taking information in the scientific literature on how to produce the relevant spike proteins for coronavirus but the corresponding proteins for other virus vaccines. So they had a lot of knowledge, and they were applying it and were able to apply that knowledge very quickly in the spring of 2020, when the pandemic struck and there needed to be a rapid response by designing new vaccines. So I mean, to my mind, and I think we generally felt in the academic community, the intellectual drivers behind these key components of the coronavirus vaccine came from the Vaccine Research Center science staff.

CO: Is this just about ego? Is this about people wanting to have their name on the patent? Or what's at stake here?

JM: I think it has to be about money. To get into a dispute like this with the federal government, there has to be a major driver for a company to take that step. And just something that is ego-driven, that would not seem to me to be the driver. You can imagine that happening in disputes over authorship on scientific publications. And happens all the time in academia. But for a company and the federal government, it just smells of money. And that the company sees a way to maximize its control over the technology, its ability to sell the vaccines at whatever prices to whom it wants. So I think this is money-rooted, and we should bear in mind that, as you mentioned, Moderna received $10 billion from the federal government during 2020 to co-develop this vaccine. The federal government underpinned the risk of developing this vaccine by essentially paying the development costs. So that has to give them, the federal government, very, very substantial rights.

CO: And it seems that the federal government, the US federal government, wants some control, not just in order to make it available to citizens in its own country, but to establish the price for distribution and sale in countries that are less able to afford this vaccine. Is that a major concern? Being able to make Moderna and this technology available to other countries?

JM: I think it's going to turn out to be a factor in all of this. Global equity, global distribution of vaccines it's a major, major issue now because the pandemic won't be fully controlled worldwide until vaccines are rolled out where they're most needed. So academic and government scientists have that fully on their radar screens as... as an important priority, both a moral priority and also a practical priority. Now, whether companies with their emphasis on the bottom line are seeing it in the same way is another question entirely. It may be that companies are reverting to type and are simply saying we will sell this product to the highest bidder because that is what maximizes our profits. And this patent dispute may be part of that dynamic.

CO: But this... this vaccine, just from Moderna, has brought in an estimated $18 billion in revenue for this year, another $20 billion for next year. And this is a young company. Again, never brought a product to market before. And suddenly, it's this... is a household name. And so, if they don't have a legal obligation, surely they have a moral one?

JM: Oh, I believe there's a very strong moral obligation to do the right thing. You know, they could not have done this without the involvement of the U.S. government. That is absolutely clear. And nobody in the company is now on the breadline. They're all reaping the financial rewards of what was unquestionably their hard work over multiple years. But they didn't do it alone. And to get into an argument with the federal government, at the very least, is tarnishing their reputation. And, in the end, it's quite possibly a no-win fight.

CO: And will go on for a long time, probably?

JM: Well, the lawyers will get rich out of it because they always do when you have this kind of dispute, but it's sad to see this happening. Last year was all about everyone working together, pulling in harmony to defeat a common enemy, which was a virus pandemic. And now, different factions of a collaboration are fighting each other. That's sad.

CO: Professor Moore, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

JM: You're welcome.

CH: John Moore is a professor of microbiology and immunology at Cornell University. He was in New York.

[Acoustic Guitar]

LR: NY Bridge

CH: Even with all the signs warning drivers in advance, it always seems like a low blow. Yesterday, we told you about the truck-eating monster that is the Canadian Pacific Railroad bridge in Glenville, New York. Over 100 vehicles have smashed into the low overpass over the years -- three of them on Monday alone. That story made an impact on some of you.

CO: Gwendolyn Schulman writes: "Some 20 years ago, I worked at a community centre in Montréal that was right up [against] some railway tracks, with a road that swooped below them. On a sadly regular basis, a truck driver, tears in his eyes, would enter the centre and ask to use my office phone. Yes, this was the pre-cell era. He would call in the fact that the top of the truck had been peeled off like a sardine can. He'd get fired on the spot, the tears would spill over, and he would leave. It was always heartbreak hotel for me. "I biked past that spot this summer, and the infrastructure is the same. Surely, the only thing that has changed is that those drivers get sacked privately now, on their cell phones. Not even a sympathetic look from the office gal with the landline."

CH: Ugh! And apparently this is a problem in Boston, too. Catherine DeLorey wrote: "It happens so often that it even has its own name: Storrowing. The name derives from a roadway -- Storrow Drive -- that has notices everywhere, but it still happens regularly." Thanks, Catherine and Gwendolyn. And anyone driving a truck right now: keep your eyes peeled. Or the wrong kind of bridge might peel your vehicle. Talkback always wants to hear what you think of what you hear on As It Happens. Call Talkback at 416-205-5687. Or email us at: aih@cbc.ca.

[Music: Acoustic guitar]

Raymond Rougeau Mayor

Guest: Raymond Rougeau

CH: If you were a fan of professional wrestling in the 1980s -- and frankly, who wasn't -- you probably remember Raymond Rougeau, one half of the real-life brother duo The Fabulous Rougeaus.

SOUNDCLIP

[Music: The very really 80's theme for The Fabulous Rougeaus by Jimmy Hart and JJ Maguire ]

SINGERS: From Montreal to Memphis. Parlez vous Francais? Tell all the girls The Rougeaus are on their way. Don't call us pretty boys. We're not a musclehead. We hate that long-haired look. We like the preppie look instead. We're all-American boys. All-American boys. We're all-American boys. All-American boys.

CH: The theme song for The Fabulous Rougeaus, which deftly taunted their American audiences with snide claims of American national pride. The Rougeaus, who hailed from Quebec, accentuated the schtick by emblazoning their spandex with fleurs-de-lys. When Raymond Rougeau stepped out of the ring for the last time, he returned to his home province, settling in picturesque Rawdon, about an hour's drive north of Montreal. And on Sunday, the voters in his adopted town elected him mayor. We reached Raymond Rougeau in Rawdon.

CO: Congratulations, Mayor Rougeau.

RAYMOND ROUGEAU: [chuckling] Thank you very much. Thank you.

CO: How does that sound to you?

RR: Oh, it sounds great. Sounds great. Like, you know, the ending of the electoral campaign is very hard. It's a long... you know, it's a long journey. It's a lot of work. But the reward of winning, I mean, is worth it. So I'm very, very pleased.

CO: Now, I don't know if you had a campaign theme song, but I sure hope it was the one we just heard?

RR: [laughing] I guess it would have been catchy, right?

CO: Yeah, well, sure.

RR: It would have put me back in the mood for sure. Maybe I would have wanted to put my tights back on and my boots.

CO: [both laugh] When you hear that, just… just what does that bring back for you when you hear your old song?

RR: Oh, it brings back great memories. I remember when we recorded that, actually. We flew down to Memphis to do that. We recorded that in one afternoon and flew out to the next city to go and wrestle.

CO: Does it remind you of getting into the ring? Does that… does it come back to you, those moments of getting into the wrestling ring?

RR: Oh yeah. Actually, you know, anytime I hear that song, all of a sudden, I'm... I'm standing back in the ring with my... the yellow and turquoise cape on, and those old American flags, and we're The Fabulous Rougeau brothers again. Yeah, it's very vivid in my mind.

CO: OK, so you're not wearing a cape as mayor. But does it actually feel like you're getting into the ring and wrestling each time you're playing politics?

RR: You know, the wrestling ring was a lot -- a lot of wear and tear on the body. Where in politics, your body is OK, [chuckle] but it's, you know, you get attacked on the different levels, you know? You have to have a layer of protection to protect yourself. Like in the ring, It's physical. But out of the ring, it's emotional and personal. People tend to attack you more on. But basically, it's been... it's been great. Like, I've been a city councillor for the last 19 years. I've been deputy mayor for the last eight years. And the mayor that was in place decided he was retiring. And that's where I decided, well, either go big or go home, so I'm going for mayor, or I'm going home. And so basically, well, now I'm the mayor. [laughing]

CO: You did take some bruising, though out on the campaign trail, just when you talk about the emotions of this. And so what happened out there?

RR: Well, basically, the campaign trail is fine. You know... you know what the funny thing is? You'll meet, let's say, 2,000 people. And out of 2,000 people, 1,995 are going to be very nice and great. Five are not so great, but it's the five that you remember.

CO: There were some personal attacks, though, weren't there? I mean, that must have been hurtful. What... what was some of the things you encountered?

RR: Well, basically, we live in a city where people... like, personally, I came here because of the beauty of the nature. We have lakes, forests, mountains and all that. And it's been developing rapidly, especially since this COVID pandemic. A lot of people have left the... Montreal and are going towards the outskirts. So, you know, anytime there's change, a lot of people get scared. And, you know, they don't want things to change. A lot of people were saying, Oh, Mr. Rougeau, he bought up the whole mountain and, you know, three kilometres of land. He wants to develop apartment buildings, and that's why he wants to run it, which is completely false. Like on the lake where I live, they spread a rumour at the other end of the lake. They said, oh, Rougeau bought all that. And he wants... he wants to open a big marina, and it's going to bring a lot of people here. We have to stop that. They have the principle... instead of trying to get people to vote for something, it's easier to get people to vote against something. So instead of vote for me, no, vote against him. He wants to do this. That's... that's the part that I don't particularly enjoy.

CO: OK, but in the... when you were a wrestler, when you and your brother were the… [chuckle] the... the brothers Rougeau, I mean --

RR: The Rougeau brothers.

CO: Yeah, the Rougeau brothers, there were a lot... there was this good guy, bad guy thing too, right? But that's part of the theatre of what you're doing. So what was... what was easier to be? The good guys or the bad guys in the... in the wrestling arena?

RR: When we joined the WWE… well, WWF back then, which is now WWE, we were, let's say, the good guys. But the thing was, we wrestled a lot in the United States. And the American public... you know, the Americans are very patriotic. And it was difficult for them to want to cheer for Canadians, and even more, French Canadians. So it was difficult for them to... to really cheer for us. And the worst place you want to be is, like, in a grey zone. In between, where half the crowd cheers for you and half the crowd will boo you. Because you want to either be hated or loved. Because if you're hated, you're going to create interest. It's going to sell tickets. If you're hated, they want to pay to see the good guys come and beat you up. But when you're caught in between, well, it's like nobody really cares. [CO laughs] And at one point, that's where we were caught. So eventually, Vince McMahon saw it also. You know, he says, hey guys, what would you think about turning heel? My brother and I looked at each other, and we laughed because the week before, my brother and I were talking exactly about that, you know, perspective, maybe that would be the best thing if we turned heel.

CO: Wait a second! Turning heel means... turning heel means becoming a villain, right? Becoming the bad guys?

RR: That's correct. Yes. Yes, becoming the bad guys, yes.

CO: And you had been… you had been babyfaces before of the sport.

RR: Absolutely, yeah.

CO: And then, so you become heels in this pro wrestling thing?

RR: Well, absolutely. Yeah, because the American public was basically looking for reasons to hate us because we came from Quebec. I mean, it... we did it over a couple of months slowly. And basically, what we did, is we came out with the little American flags, and we were saying on interviews how we love the United States of America so much. We even plan on moving here. And, you know, and we laid it on so thick like the people were like, look, you know, these guys are full of it. They can't like us that much. So, they started, you know, saying that we were being hypocritical about it and this and that. And within a couple of months, we became the most hated team in the WWE back then.

CO: So you didn't mind being the most hated team [laughing] in the WWF, but you don't want that in politics, right? You don't want to be that when you're they mayor.

RR: No, absolutely. No. In wrestling, it was great. And actually, you know what? It was the most fun I had in my whole career. It just felt creatively you could be a lot freer. Where basically, in politics, well, you do not want to be. And fortunately, you know, it's... this is my sixth consecutive election that I've won. So, you know, I guess I must have done something right.

CO Well, congratulations on your success, Mayor Rougeau. [RR chuckles] And maybe you should get the spandex and the cape back on. [chuckling] And maybe we'll take you... treat you differently.

RR: There you go! When we have our public meetings once a month, and the crowd, I can come up dressed as The fabulous Raymond Rougeau again. [CO chuckles] See how that will get over. [chuckle]

CO: Sounds like a plan. Great to --

RR: I'll play the music when we come in! That'll be good, huh?

CO: You should go back to that theme. I'm... I'm telling you. That... that's very catchy. The all-American boys.

RR: [chuckle] Oh, thank you very much. I appreciate it. It was a lot of fun. It was a lot of fun.

CO: Take care. Bye-bye.

RR: Thank you. Bye-bye.

CH: Former pro wrestler Raymond Rougeau was elected mayor of Rawdon, Quebec, earlier this week. We reached him in Rawdon. And you can see pictures of Mayor Rougeau now -- and in his fleurs-de-ly shorts in the '80s -- on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Indie rock]

SK Movember Woman

CH: A Saskatchewan woman has decided that "Movember" shouldn't just be for those who can grow facial hair. MJ Deans-Benham is getting in on the prostate and testicular cancer fundraiser by drawing and sticking-on her own 'stache. And raising lots of money in the process. She really drew on reserves of creativity. She also drew on her face. Here she is talking to the CBC.

SOUNDCLIP

MJ DEANS-BENHAM: It was just kind of a spur of the moment thing. My dad is fighting prostate cancer currently, and beating it, I might add. And so my husband didn't even hesitate when November 1st came around to get all of his male staff members to all shave their moustaches off. So I walked into his office, and all of a sudden, he went from this very hairy man to just very naked face. [SL chuckles] So, I was like, OK, what are you doing? And he says, well, it's November 1st, I'm doing Movember. And I was like, oh my gosh! I totally forgot about that. You know what? I need to do that because it's... like, my dad is one that would benefit from more cancer research and more cancer awareness and stuff. So he's like, yeah, you can help me raise money. I'm like, I'm not going to help you raise money, I'm going to raise more money than you. He's like, how? And so I said, um, I'm going to grow my own moustache. Money just started rolling in. So I was like, oh man! I got to start putting on a moustache. So I started drawing a moustache on with some eyebrow pencil. But because of COVID, sometimes we have to wear a mask. So it was kind of rubbing off and just making a big, smeary mess on my face. [both chuckle] Sharpie permanent marker it is. And so I started doing that, but then I started making more funds and needed more of a hairy lip. So yeah, now I wear a... like a stick-on fuzzy one [chuckling] that you would wear at Halloween.

STEFANI LANGENEGGER: All the time?!

MDB: I wear it 24-7. I wear it all the time. Sometimes I'll be alone in my car, and I don't wear a mask when I'm alone in my car, [chuckling] and the looks I get from the cars inside me is hilarious. So, yeah, I wear it all the time for the whole month of Movember.

SL: [chuckle] What's your dad think?

MDB: [chuckling] You know what? He was... he liked it. He was surprised that I was actually going to wear. He's like, just... just raise the money and you don't have to wear the moustache. I'm like, no way! I'm totally wearing the moustache. It makes a bigger statement, makes a bigger deal. And it's a huge deal. So, yeah, he's pretty proud.

CH: That was MJ Deans-Benham speaking to Stefani Langenegger, host of Morning Edition in Regina, about her extremely successful participation in Movember.

[Music: Disco?]

Part 3: Auto Industry Whistleblower, Malawi Albinism Politician

FOA: Q-Anon Shaman

CH: The United States government is coming down hard on the "Q-Anon Shaman". Jacob Chansley stood out among the Capitol Hill rioters for his unique attire: animal furs, horns and a spear. In a sentencing request, prosecutors are requesting he get more than four years in prison when he is sentenced next Wednesday. That’s the longest sentence requested so far for anyone convicted of taking part in the storming of the Capitol. The prosecutors have called him, "quite literally, [the] flagbearer" of the mob on January 6th. Back in January, we spoke to Mr. Chansley's lawyer, Albert Watkins. Here is part of that interview, from our archives.

AW: So, my client was not shrouding his face in secrecy. He's a long standing and committed follower of the Shaman faith. This is his attire. It is something that he wears and has worn not just at Trump rallies, but over the course of his adult life. This is a man who was not wearing a bullet-proof vest. He didn't have a pipe bomb on him or a gun on him. He wasn't violent. He didn't overcome police. He didn't force himself on others. He didn't assault people. He did not destroy property.

CO: Right. Your client is seen carrying a spear approximately six feet in length with an American flag on it. He is seen looking for Mike Pence. He leaves a note saying 'It's only a matter of time. Justice is coming.' Surely this appears to be a menacing person, does it not?

AW: No, actually, it doesn't. You have to get to know the man behind the horn and the fur. First of all, the spear is not a functional spear, and it was a flagpole -- it's part of his attire, which may admittedly fall outside the bell curve of normalcy. But my client, if you look at the note and you read the words of the note and you superimpose them on the words spoken by the president just minutes earlier behind the White House, that's exactly what the president said, 'Justice is coming.'

CO: You say that he admits that he's done something wrong. He is a grown up, he must have known at some point whatever he heard from Mr. Trump that he was storming a building. He was there. People were vandalizing it. Some of them were looking to harm others. And so, didn't he know that this was wrong?

AW: No, no. In fact, he didn't. And I'm going to suggest you take a look back at 1978, and you look what happened with a bunch of college graduates, husbands, wives, and children in San Francisco who followed their nondenominational Christian leader, who had given... given accolades by many around our country...

CO: What are you referring to? We don't know.

AW: ...went to Guyana and ended up drinking the Kool-Aid, and they are dead. And I'm not trying to compare Trump to Jim Jones. I'm trying to compare my client and many many others in like position who were vulnerable and easily exploitable.

CO: Just finally, does your client still believe in the Q-Anon conspiracy theory that Democrats are Satan-worshipping paedophiles who plotted against Mr. Trump while operating a global child sex trafficking ring?

AW: I can tell you that my client’s process of deprogramming is not one which is complete.

CO: He's being deprogrammed?

AW: Well, we all deprogrammed. When we're betrayed, whether it's the first love of our life. Or whether it's the mailman with our significant other, it doesn't matter. The betrayal is something that requires a process. My client is in the middle of that process. He's a bright man, a soft spoken-man, a gentle man. And he's getting it better and faster than many of the recalcitrant, extraordinarily wealthy white-collar crime defendants that you'll see across the country.

CH: From January, that was Carol speaking to Albert Watkins, the lawyer for the so-called "Q-Anon Shaman". The man, whose real name is Jacob Chansley, will be sentenced for his role in the storming of the Capitol next Wednesday. Prosecutors are asking for him to be imprisoned for more than four years.

[Music: International]

Auto Industry Whistleblower

Guest: Ari Yampolsky

CH: Being a whistleblower comes with a lot of risks. And, often, a clear conscience is the only reward. But now, for the first time ever, the U.S. government has awarded a pay-out to an auto industry whistleblower. The 24 million dollars is going to a former Hyundai engineer named Kim Gwang-ho. Mr. Kim went to American regulators in 2016 to tell them that Hyundai was not addressing a design flaw in an engine -- a flaw that made it prone to seizing up, and even catching fire. Last year, Hyundai and its Kia subsidiary agreed to pay a record penalty for its delay in recalling vehicles with the engine. We were not able to speak with Mr. Kim, who lives in Seoul. But we reached his lawyer, Ari Yampolsky, in Berkeley, California.

CO: Mr. Yampolsky, what does this award mean to Kim Gwang-ho?

ARI YAMPOLSKY: This award is a validation of the extraordinary risks that Mr. Kim took to protect the American driving public, the Canadian driving public and the driving public everywhere where Hyundai and Kia sell dangerous vehicles. It means that his efforts were recognized, he was protected and, in the end, his moral clarity and his courage were rewarded.

CO: He didn't know he would be protected and rewarded, did he at the beginning? What pushed him to go to the U.S. regulators about what he knew about this engine?

AY: You know, it was really disbelief that his managers and other corporate leaders could perpetuate the kind of deception and misconduct that they were involved in that really had as the victims consumers whose safety was threatened. And he went forward because he, after having spent a quarter of a century, his entire career at Hyundai, one of the most powerful and largest employers in Korea, could not abide by the decision to conceal the safety dangers.

CO: So these cars were flawed. He... these engines were flawed. What was he worried might happen to people who owned them?

AY: The nature of the defect in the vehicles that Hyundai and Kia discovered, that Mr. Kim's team was responsible for studying and figuring out how to remedy, was that the engines would seize up. That sounds kind of benign. But what that means is that you as a driver would be on the road, on a highway, on a bridge. You would hear a knocking noise, and then your car would suddenly stop and lose motive force. And in some circumstances, cars caught fire as well because of the enormous amount of energy that was transferred when the parts... when the metal parts froze together, they seized. People got into car accidents. People got stranded, people could get burned. Those were the kinds of things that he was worried about, and that Hyundai and Kia knew were happening in the field at the time that he came forward to report.

CO: But what efforts did he make to raise this... these concerns inside the company before he became a whistleblower?

AY: Mr Kim, he and his team discovered the root causes of the issue and recommended different courses of action to remedy it. His and his team's reports were considered by the management. And then, it was decided that they would be ignored and that a fairy tale would instead be told to U.S. regulators who were asking questions of Hyundai and Kia about the engine's failure, about their reasons for the engine's failures. He complained mightily about that internally before what I characterize as a fairy tale was told. And afterward, repeatedly, he complained to his managers, his former managers, and went up the chain at Hyundai and Kia and was not heard and was, in fact, ignored and then retaliated against.

CO: But how did he actually do the whistleblowing? What, did he make phone calls? How did he let U.S. regulators know that this was going on?

AY: Mr. Kim did something extraordinary and something that sometimes feels like it's out of a movie. Paying his own way, he bought a airplane ticket for himself and for his college-aged daughter, who was serving as his translator to fly from Seoul to Washington, D.C. He carried with him a cache of internal company records that exposed the truth about what the company knew about the failures, the engine failures and the sources of those failures. And he delivered those records to the United States Department of Transportation, the regulators for road safety in the U.S. And that began an investigation, which rolled out and unfurled over the course of four years.

CO: And what became of Mr. Kim?

AY: Hyundai retaliated against him very significantly. They fired him. They filed criminal charges against him, misusing the Korean legal process, accusing him of stealing corporate records for his own pecuniary gain. Mr. Kim has been unemployed since that time. He was just three years short of retirement when all of this occurred. He has suffered very significantly through it all. The charges, of course, were dropped. A Korean legal body found him to be innocent. And I think that with yesterday's award, he has truly been vindicated for the risks that he took.

CO: And this... this pay-out is $24 million, and this is the first time this whistleblower award has been given to anyone within the auto industry for doing what Mr. Kim did. Of course, it helps, I'm sure, after everything he has been through. But I've spoken to whistleblowers before, and it takes an enormous toll, mental toll, doesn't it? How is he doing?

AY: It has taken a significant toll on him and on his family. It has been years of enduring a wait. It has been years of enduring some level of, you know, social ostracism because it has been public knowledge in Korea that he was a whistleblower. And it has, you know, it has been difficult. I say all of that. He's a very, very strong individual. He's very resolute. And he has the kind of moral clarity that I think that all of us hope to have, but hopefully, more of us do.

CO: Extraordinary story. Mr. Yampolsky, thank you.

AY: Thank you.

CH: Ari Yampolsky is the lawyer for former Hyundai engineer Kim Gwang-ho. He was in Berkeley, California.

[Music: Indie rock]

Winnipeg Homeless Woman Winter Camping

CH: A Manitoba winter is already brutal enough. But for those without proper shelter, it can be deadly. During the pandemic, there's been a sharp increase in people experiencing homelessness and living in tents. And Winnipeg is no exception. Lauren Munro is living in a camp along the Red River, and with the first winter storm of the year approaching, she described what worries her about her living situation.

SOUNDCLIP

LAUREN MUNRO: We've all been here for about two months now.

AUSTIN GRABISH: OK.

LM: Yeah. They kicked everybody out under the bridge, and they also kicked the people out of the campsites. Like, mostly just the bridges. And now, they're kicking everybody out of the bus shacks.

AG: So, how are you feeling about the looming winter storm? We're expecting maybe a foot of snow tomorrow... by tomorrow night.

LM: Um, I'm getting, like, kind of worried about people. Hopefully, everybody stays safe and no... nothing really bad happens, anybody freezes. That's pretty much it. And I hope everybody's stocked up and, like, warm. That's a... that's a hard part, too, especially because they don't want fires. The fire department comes here lots. And I have a fire in my... in my tent, but I have to keep... always watch it. It's easily... last year, somebody died from a fire. People made it out. One person didn't. That's pretty much what I worry about.

AG: How did you end up without a home, if you don't mind sharing?

[Sound: shifting fabric sounds]

LM: I guess it would be, like, me and my mom. I moved here just to take care of my mom. I had my own home. I had my own job. I was teacher, TA, at a school in Brandon. I had my own car and everything when I moved here. And I left all that behind to take care of my mom. She was in a car accident. So she's in a wheelchair now. But I started getting back into my addictions, I guess. That's pretty much how I ended up where I am. It's all because of my own choices. Otherwise, I wouldn't have... my mom asked me to leave, right?

AG: It must be hard to stay clean, though, Lauren? Because just outside your... your home, there's needles everywhere.

LM: Everywhere, everywhere. I actually asked them. Like, I started making a big deal about that because I was staying in the shack because I don't have... I do have family around here, but I don't go and try to be in their lives because of my own, right? I don't choose to be homeless. I don't think anybody really does at the beginning and just how it works out eventually. And again, everyone always comes back.

CH: That was Lauren Munro, who is living without proper shelter in Winnipeg, speaking with CBC reporter Austin Grabish.

[Music: Horns!!!]

Malawi Albinism Politician

Guest: Overstone Kondowe

CH: For much of his life, Overstone Kondowe has been a champion for people living with albinism in Malawi. Now, he is taking his fight to the country's national assembly and doing something no one in his country has done before. Mr. Kondowe made history last week when he became the first Malawian with albinism to be elected a member of parliament. We reached Mr. Kondowe in Lilongwe.

CO: Mr. Kondowe, first of all, congratulations.

OVERSTONE KONDOWE: Thank you very much.

CO: You have been an activist for people with albinism in your country for some time, but why did you want to go into parliament?

OK: There were some gaps in our national assembly in Lilongwe. We were not part of the machinery that makes this issue up. So it was my dream that one day I'll find my way in so that we can bring forth a national conversation about persons with albinism. Looking at some policy programs on legislation that would warrant the protection of the rights of persons with albinism in the country. Not only this country, but also other countries within the region and even beyond.

CO: Can you just... can you give us a sense of what it's like to be a person with albinism in Malawi? Just... maybe just growing up, what was it like for you when you live in a country where you're... there's so many superstitions around albinism. What was it like as a kid?

OK: Life has not been easy. I've experienced discrimination from peers. I've also seen people being murdered with my own eyes, a person being murdered simply because I was born with albinism. Not only that, a number of us have failed to go up high with education simply because of a lack of information about albinism. That is from teachers and also even health care workers who were failing to provide support.

CO: Going back to this growing up, though, I mean a lot of parents of children with albinism, they were afraid to let the children go to school because of how dangerous it could be. I mean they’re... because they, as you pointed out, people would be murdered, people would be killed and attacked for having the condition. So how did... how did your parents feel? I mean, how did they arrange for you to go to school safely?

OK: A good thing about me was my father was a primary school teacher. So we used to stay close to the school. Besides that, we were born seven men, so wherever I go, I was not alone. I was with my brothers around me, which also offered some kind of protection and even during my time at school.

CO: One of the biggest dangers is that there are these superstitions, these beliefs that somehow the body parts of people with albinism have special powers. People, I understand, would be killed for their bodies, parts that would be used in witchcraft. Did you ever encounter anybody who was doing things like that?

OK: In fact, I've had myself, somebody quoting me money, and probably saying, I've found the market for you already. People are speaking directly to my face. So these were happening, especially from 2014, ‘15, ‘16 and ‘17, these cases were happening each week. That made life to be very hard.

CO: And so people... because they saw you as a source of money. The Red Cross says that sometimes people with albinism, their bodies would bring $75,000 for people who were able to kill them. And so, did government, did the police do anything to protect you? Did you have any... any authority that could protect you?

OK: I'm happy to report that cases now have gone down, and this has not happened without any effort and without any division from government. As you may recall, soon after the UN expert on abinism proposed Malawi was the first country to adopt it, to domesticate it and to come up with a national action plan on on albinism. And we just got some ideas like prosecution awareness-raising of justice. So all these interventions are done by government and also non-governmental organizations have really helped, which was not the case in the years 2016 -2014. We have each and every day, our media houses would carry stories of attacks, of people missing, trafficking, found with body parts. All of these were happening before the coming in of government.

CO: And yet, as late as 2019, just a few years ago, you were assaulted by police for holding a vigil demanding the government take action to stop these abductions and killings. So what... how much has changed in these recent years?

OK By then, Government was very reluctant to release funding so that the activities which we have proposed in the National Action Plan translated into action. So that demonstration, that vigil at the State House brought in the commitment of government to release some funds from the National Assembly for their protection, awareness, prosecution of cases related to persons with albinism. So, to me, I take that as a big step that Malawi has taken so that at least now we should be talking about peace. We are able to live freely without being attacked the way it used to be before 2019.

CO: Well, and probably the biggest change or a sign that things have changed is the fact that you were elected and that the... what signal do you hope it sends to other Malawians who have albinism when they see that you have been elected?

OK: For sure, and I'm happy to be elected in that highest office. I was born brave. And I'm well... I'm a focused. And I always say that the skin colour itself has nothing to do with one’s character. So it’s a breakthrough And it’s the start of a new page, where persons with albinism will be accommodated and it will be accepted by their society. Or will be appointed or be tested with higher positions where decisions will be made.

CO: Well, again, congratulations to you, Mr. Kondowe. Thanks for speaking with us.

OK: Thank you very much.

CO: Bye-bye.

OK: Bye.

CH: Overstone Kondowe is a new member of parliament in Malawi and the first-ever person with albinism to be elected to the national assembly in his country. We reached him in Lilongwe.

[Music: Folk]

TSO is back

CH: When the pandemic hit in 2020, orchestral musicians were forced into their homes like everyone else -- and away from their colleagues. To rehearse together, they had to meet up on Zoom. It was a way to stay connected, musically and personally -- but it doesn't compare to what's happening tonight. For the first time since March 2020, the Toronto Symphony Orchestra will be playing at Roy Thomson Hall to a live audience of present human people. It's a milestone. And it also marks the pandemic-delayed in-person debut of Gustavo Gimeno as music director. Here he is, speaking with CBC Toronto ahead of tonight's performance.

SOUNDCLIP

GUSTAVO GIMENO: When I'm conducting, I don't see most of the audience, but the musicians the audience. They are facing the audience. I am facing the musicians. So, according to what I see in the eyes of the musicians, I realize the collective spirit. So that's something I feel the audience, most of them in my back, but I especially also feel the eyes and the aura and the energy from the musicians in front of me. So it's quite a peculiar combination of, you know, of... of feelings.

ISMAILA ALFA: Now, like many organizations, you've been working online with your musicians. Were there any lessons that you learned from that experience that you will, you know, carry forward as, you know, the new TSO conductor?

GG: Well, the most important, I will say, one... I learned several things, but one is not to take things for granted, which is something very human, and it's very easy to say. But I really mean it. Not to take for granted how fortunate we are to have the music of great composers daily, to be performing with one another and to have an audience, which is something we, of course, we like the presence of the audience and the applause and the recognition. But we were never so aware of it as we are now. So that's, I think, an important lesson for me to enjoy every single day and to realize how fortunate we are to have great music and to have one another.

CH: That was Toronto Symphony Orchestra music director, Gustavo Gimeno, speaking with Ismaila Alfa, host of Metro Morning in Toronto, ahead of tonight's concert before an audience at Roy Thomson Hall -- the first in 20 months.

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November 10, 2021 Episode Transcript

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