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The AIH Transcript For November 08, 2021

[hosts]Carol Off, Chris Howden[/hosts]

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[music: theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

CO: A night out becomes a nightmare. Eight people are dead after the crowd rushed the stage at a Houston festival on Friday -- and one concert goer tells us she's lucky to be alive.

CH: Not just the usual ups and downs. Canadian flags on Parliament Hill were raised, then lowered, for Indigenous Veterans Day today -- and the National Chief of the Assembly of First Nations says that's a powerful symbol, but it must be followed by action.

CH: And... identity crisis. Josh Allen had a lousy game yesterday while Josh Allen excelled -- and when Josh Allen sacked Josh Allen, it was the first time in NFL history one player sacked another player with the same exact name.

CH: As It Happens, the Monday edition. Radio that puts the ache in namesake.

[music: theme]

Part 1: Texas Concert Deaths, U.S. Border Reopening, Manitoba Press Gallery Voice

Texas Concert Deaths

Guest: Diana Amira

CH: It was supposed to be a weekend of dancing, moshpits, and music. It turned into one of the deadliest live music events in U.S. history. Eight people are dead and dozens injured after a crowd rushed the stage at the Astroworld festival in Houston on Friday, where Travis Scott was performing. The victims range from 14 to 27 years old. More than a dozen civil lawsuit has now been filed against the rapper and Live Nation Entertainment, and police say they are investigating. Diana Amira was one of the 50,000 people in the crowd. We reached her in Houston, Texas.

CO: Diana has what happened on Friday night... has it fully sunk in yet?

DIANA AMIRA: It... it's slowly starting to hit me. It hits me at random moments. I just find myself crying all of a sudden because I'm just so thankful of how lucky I am.

CO: What are the moments that keep coming back to you?

DA: I can't listen to music the same. Every time I hear a bass, I just get the flashbacks from, like, drowning in the crowds and no one being able to hear me scream because of the music.

CO: How loud were you screaming to be heard?

DA: I have never heard myself scream that loud in my life. I was shrieking for my life.

CO: And no one could hear you?

DA: No one could hear me until one of the guys that was helping me stay above the crowd, he looked back and saw me on the ground.

CO: And what did he do?

DA: He... at that moment, I was starting to see stars. I felt myself getting light-headed. And there was no room for me to faint. So I just went limp and put my head back because I knew I was going to pass out. And a random guy that I don't know stepped on my calves because my knees were bent and started climbing me to see a better view of Travis Scott. And I dropped to the ground, and I remember the last thing was, I remember... the last thing I remember was locking eyes with that guy who helped me. And I heard him screaming. Next thing I remember is just being on top of the crowd getting carried out.

CO: [deep sigh] Can you just... let’s just go back and tell us at the moment you realized when you were in that crowd, the Travis Scott concert, when did you realize something had seriously gone wrong?

DA: About an hour-and-a-half before the show started is where things began to get chaotic. And breathing became harder. The crowd was smushed together. And I knew something was wrong as soon as I heard people screaming, people screaming saying, he's down, he's down. People were fainting, and I knew something was wrong when I heard screams.

CO: Where were you in the crowd? Where... in what position?

DA: I was second row.

CO: And did it appear that those on stage, and then eventually Travis Scott himself, did they seem to know what was going on?

DA: The security knew exactly what was going on.

CO: And they did not stop it?

DA: They did not stop the show. There was one point where Travis was on stage and saw someone faint, and he paused the show for 10 seconds and then continued it.

CO: Apparently, he did stop a few times but then continued. And that there were people getting up on the stage trying to say, Please, you have to do something. There's... something's gone seriously wrong. Did you see that?

DA: Yes, ma’am. People were getting on... not on the stage of Travis Scott, but on the platform where the cameraman was. People were climbing on top of that, begging the cameraman to stop the show, do anything in his power to help.

CO: [deep breath out] And if you hadn't been lifted up. If you had... no one had helped you, what do you think would have happened to you?

DA: If it was not for the two guys who were helping me the whole time during the concert, I would not have made it out of there alive. And I know that for a fact.

CO: And when you reflect on that, when you... what do your parents say? What do you... what do you... what does your family, think of all this?

DA: The whole day, at NRG Park, we had no service at all to contact our families, friends, text anyone. I was receiving messages from my mom asking, like, if I was OK? Like, what’s up? Update me. But I just couldn't send messages back. And it wasn't until 11:00 p.m., where I finally left the park, where I could get a hold of my mom, and I just started crying at her and telling her everything that happened. And then my dad didn't know. He woke up and watched the news and called me at 5:00 in the morning because he didn't know whether I was dead or alive.

CO: They must have been so relieved to hear from you?

DA: Yes, ma'am, it was, and I'm very thankful to be alive.

CO: And now you know that eight people are dead from that concert. Dozens injured in that surge of the crowd. And so, do you think that... when you think about it, could anything have been done to prevent it? Do you think that they... it was the fault of those who were organizing this event?

DA: I think the people at fault are the ones organizing the event and the fans. I feel like there is... they're both at fault. Because, one, the show could have been stopped for like 30 minutes just so everyone could get situated, everyone that needed help could get out. And I think that some of the fans are at fault too. Because, again, the guy who stepped on these issues just didn't care about anyone’s life but his own. And I actually want to backtrack and say that about 30 minutes before Travis Scott came on, people were dropping to the floor. I... there was no room for me to move my head. I can only move it up to breathe or down. I couldn't move it side to side. And when you look down, there is a girl face down on the floor next to me, and I scream, I scream, there's a girl, there's a girl on the ground. And I try everything in my power to bend down. And I lift up her head, her hair, I mean. And I let it go, and she just drops [claps hands together] like her head drops back to the ground.

CO: So, do you know if she was saved? Is she OK?

DA: She, unfortunately, did not make it. She was one of the victims.

CO: And you were right there?

DA: I was right next to her.

CO: You're 19-years-old.

DA: Yes, ma’am

CO: Do you think... can you imagine going to a concert again?

DA: I... I don't think... I think just right now, I need to lay low. I learned that... that it could have been anyone dead. Again, it could have been me. The... the fact that I was starting to accept the fact that I was going to die, no one should have to go through that. It’s... like, I'm so young. I don't deserve to see any of this. No one deserves to see any of this. And after this concert, I realized that anything could happen anywhere and that I need to be careful.

CO: [sigh] Diana, I'm so happy that you're OK from all of that. What a horrible experience for you to go through. You just wanted to go and have a concert and have some fun, and all of that happened. So I'm glad you're safe. And I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

DA: Thank you so much.

CO: Take care.

DA: Thank you so much. Thank you.

CH: Diana Amira survived the chaos at the Astroworld Festival on Friday, where eight people died. We reached her in Houston. More than a dozen lawsuits have been filed related to the concert disaster. So far, Ms. Amira has not signed on.

[Music: Indie rock]

U.S. Border Reopening

Guest: Brian Higgins

CH: Pop the duty-free champagne. Today, the Canada/U.S. land border officially reopened to vaccinated, non-essential travellers. But there is still a COVID rule that some lawmakers in Canada and the U.S. say is putting a damper on celebrations. The Canadian government still requires a negative PCR test to come back into the country. That kind of test can be expensive, and it takes time. Brian Higgins is a U.S. Congressman who wants Canada to drop its requirement for the test. We reached him in Buffalo, New York.

CO: Congressman Higgins, what was it like for you today to see travellers from Canada finally crossing that border again?

BRIAN HIGGINS: Happy to welcome our Canadian borders to Buffalo and western New York and into the United States. It's been 19 months, and things are changing for the better. We still have some issues remaining. That said, it's a celebration of the reunification of people who have been separated for 19 months. People who, you know, just want to visit the United States coming in from Canada. We have two economies that are deeply integrated. It's another step toward normalcy, which is very welcomed here in Buffalo and in western New York.

CO: Now, though, as you said, there are a few things. And one of them is the fact that travellers returning to Canada have to show a negative PCR test -- this is like the gold standard of testing. And you have an issue with that. Can you tell us why you think that we should not do that?

BH: Well, I do, because you know, vaccines reduce the spread and severity of COVID. Vaccines are widely available and free. And I think that the testing requirement for Canadians when they re-enter Canada is a major obstacle to... to realizing the full potential of a border opening.

CO: And just so people know, this negative PCR test that needs to be done for anyone returning to Canada or coming to Canada, so it’s like Americans coming to Canada or Canadians returning. And this... and the only people allowed to cross are fully vaccinated people. So that is the situation before this PCR test. But this is, like, again, we said it’s the gold standard -- better than rapid testing. Don't you see that... that given the fact that there is still a pandemic, that this is a reliable thing to have?

BH: Well, it's reliable, but it's unnecessary. If you are fully vaccinated, you have a very powerful protection against giving and getting COVID. It certainly is not 100 per cent, but the U.S. President Joe Biden has made very clear that today, this is a pandemic of the unvaccinated. Keep in mind, you know, the United States is opening the border to our Canadian neighbours who are fully vaccinated, and we do not require from our Canadian neighbours a…. a test. So I think there's a recognition from our Centers for Disease Control and Prevention that just being smart about this, being fully vaccinated, wearing a mask when necessary, obviates the need to have a testing requirement. And I just think that today, this very day, there are people over in Canada who were probably contemplating a trip across the border to Buffalo and western New York and aren't doing it because of this additional requirement.

CO: There's this antigen test, which is less reliable. It's about 80 per cent as reliable as this... this PCR test. The antigen test is much, much cheaper. Would you accept that, or do you think that the whole testing thing should just be scrubbed?

BH: Well, it's not what I would accept. I mean, it's not my call. I'm just suggesting and arguing that when you follow the science, when you follow the data, when you follow the facts, that if you're fully vaccinated, again, you have powerful immunity against getting or giving COVID. And it's serving as an obstacle, again, to realizing the full potential of the border reopening. And I think the United States, in opening the... the northern border and the southern border to our Canadian and Mexican neighbours, are recognizing that because there is not a requirement for testing. COVID is not going away. It's not going to be eradicated. What we have to do is manage it in a practical, safe and successful way.

CO: I just want to just return just to that antigen test because doctors are arguing that that rapid test might even be better than the... the PCR test because you do it right away at the border, you know the results, and it's not 72 hours before where someone could actually have become infected during that period. And many people come and go in 72 hours from the United States. So is there… do you see any logic at all in having an antigen test?

BH: I don't. I mean, look, people will make smart decisions about what they need. And if you come into contact with somebody with COVID, and you... you know you don't wear a mask. Then that is reason for people on their own to decide whether or not to get a test. I just think, and I think, the... the U.S. policy as it relates to Canadians entering the United States and Mexicans entering the United States, are recognizing that vaccines exclusively are the requirement and there's no testing. But they're still, you know, regardless of what the test is, there's still a cost associated with it. There is still an inconvenience issue. There is still issues of intrusiveness. [chuckle] It's not a pleasant experience. And if it's not essential as it relates to the guidance that we're receiving from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, why are we making people endure that?

CO: We're seeing line-ups of people wanting to get into the U.S. today across the border. So are you actually seeing an effect? Do you think there are people who aren't crossing because of this test requirement? Are you... are your businesses or your constituents saying they're not seeing the customers they would expect? And do you think it's because of this test?

BH: Well, it's early yet. And I do believe that that... that is an additional obstacle, a requirement that will deter people from crossing the border. The fact of the matter is, you know, Ontario, which borders the United States at Buffalo, is the... it's 14-and-a-half million people. As I mentioned, our economies are deeply integrated. And, you know, the bottom line is there's a human nature aspect to this. You know, we're all economic actors. When we're confident, we move. When we're not, we don't. And when there are additional obstacles in the way that will serve to discourage people from making that cross-border trip. Where if the testing requirement, the cost associated with it, the inconvenience of it and the unpleasantness of it, you remove that, you're going to have more cross-border movement.

CO: Congressman Higgins, thanks for speaking with us.

BH: Thank you so much.

CH: Brian Higgins is a U.S. Congressman. We reached him in Buffalo, New York. And you can find more on that story on our webpage: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient]

COP 26 Obama

CH: At COP26 today, Barack Obama made an appeal to the frustrated. The former U.S. president kicked off the final week of the climate summit with a speech that acknowledged that world leaders haven't always delivered on their big climate talk. Barack Obama concluded with call to action -- even if the first step might sound like a painful compromise.

SOUNDCLIP

BARACK OBAMA: Existing political institutions move slowly, even when leaders are well-intentioned. International cooperation has always been difficult. It's made more difficult by all the misinformation and propaganda that can flood out through social media these days. Business leaders, let's face it, are typically rewarded for boosting short-term profits, not addressing major social issues. Getting people to work together on a global scale takes time. And right now, that's time we don't have. So if we're honest with ourselves, yes, this is going to be really hard. The thing we have going for us. Is that humanity has done hard things before? I believe we can do hard things again. Yes, the process will be messy. I guarantee you every victory will be incomplete. We will face more setbacks. Sometimes we will be forced to settle for imperfect compromises because even if they don't achieve everything we want, at least they advance the cause, at least they move the ball down the field. But if we work hard enough for long enough. Those partial victories add up. If we push hard enough, stay focused enough and are smart about it, those victories accelerate. If we listen to those who are resistant, and we take their concerns seriously, and we work with them, and we organize, and we mobilize, and we get our hands dirty in the difficulties of changing political dynamics in our countries. Those victories start happening a little bit more frequently. If we stay with it, we will get this done.

CH: That was former U.S. president Barack Obama speaking at the COP26 climate summit in Glasgow.

[Music: Vocalization]

Manitoba Press Gallery Voice

Guest: Paul White

CH: I have a confession to make: when I'm here at work, before the show goes to air, I have the TV on. It's usually tuned to CBC News Network, naturally. And most of the time, the subtitles are on and the sound is off. So as not to disturb my colleagues. But the other day, I turned up the volume as the new premier of Manitoba, Heather Stefanson, was holding a press conference.

SOUNDCLIP

HEATHER STEFANSON: And, obviously, getting our economy back up and running. These are the things that manitobains want us to be focused on. And I will be focused on those things.

WOMAN: OK. We’ll go to the phone, guys.

PAUL WHITE: Thank you. A reminder to our reporters on the phone. You will have one preliminary and one follow-up question. Up first, from The Brandon Sun, Drew.

CH: Whoa! I mean, if I was Drew from The Brandon Sun, I'd feel pretty magnificent, with an introduction like that. But Paul White -- the government media manager who calls on reporters at press conferences -- has a way of making everyone seem like the most important person in the room. Here's another example.

SOUNDCLIP

PW: From the CJOB, Skyler.

CH: Go, Skyler! I definitely want to hear your question for the premier now!

SOUNDCLIP

PW: From the City News, Mike.

CH: Mike! Bring it on! Well, look, we're not the first people to notice Paul White's voice. But we certainly wanted to hear more of it. So we rang him up in Winnipeg.

CO: Hello, Paul?

PW: Hello, Carol.

CO: [chuckling] We have just been hearing you at this government press conference, upstaging the premier. Obviously, people are paying more attention to you calling out their names [chuckling] than what she's got to say. These are supposed to be dull, these press conferences! Don't you know that?

PW: No one upstages the premier. Let me make that very clear. But I... I thank you [chuckling] for that. We went to this in our government press room at the height of the pandemic, where we had to clear out the reporters from the actual room. And so to bring a little order to the chaos of a typical scrum, we started doing moderation. So that's how I ended up doing this.

CO: But now, when they call out reporters’ names, and I've been at these online press conferences, and somebody in a very monotone voice will say, Carol. [chuckle] And it’s like you don't feel terribly important. How did the reporters respond when you give their names with such grace?

PW: I think some may get a kick out of it. I know of a couple that have used that as a new ringtone on their wireless device. So they... they must be OK with that.

CO: What? When... when you introduce them, they actually take their name... you introducing them and put that on the phone as their ringtone?

PW: So I am told. So I'm told.

CO: What do you make of that?

PW: Well, that's fine. There's no royalties involved. And, yeah, we're OK with that.

CO Is this your voice like all the time, or is this just one that you have for the press conferences?

PW: No, this is pretty much it all the time. I have an older brother who is often mistaken for me on the phone. He dabbled in university radio. But, yeah, this is pretty much it.

CO: And how did you develop your broadcast voice?

PW: It's something my father left me. [laughing] The boys in the family all had fairly boomy voices, even my son's got a fairly boomy voice, but not quite like that. Anyway, he's... yeah, he sounds a bit like me if he wants to mock me a little bit.

CO: [chuckling] Your dad or your son?

PW: My son.

CO: What.. hopefully he's older than four. If he sounds like you and he’s a child [laughing] then you have to worry about where he's going at school.

PW: [chuckling] No, he's a bit older than four. Yes. [chuckling]

CO: And your dad, was he a broadcaster?

PW: No. No. He just had a big, boomy voice. And if any of the boys misbehaved, we knew about it from a distance.

CO: And so did the neighbours.

PW: Probably.

CO: [chuckling] OK. When people here at the show, we first heard your voice and we didn't know that you... people in Manitoba, reporters there, have known this all during the pandemic. But we... we had quite a reaction to it. And one producer said I want him to narrate my life. He sounds like a movie trailer voice. I want to know what he looks like. Do you get that a lot?

PW: Well, people have asked. My friends tell me through social media, some people are wondering. And my standard response is, yes, I have a voice for radio, but not a face for radio. So, although I was in television at one time, I was an anchorman here in town after my training at Red River College. But, yeah, it's just what comes out. And that's the way it comes out.

CO: You know, a few years ago, we spoke to a young man named Trevor Henderson, who worked on the B.C. ferries. He had a very remarkable voice. We talked to him about that. And he did the... the PA announcements. And here he is doing a PA announcement for the gift shop, for us.

SOUNDCLIP

TREVOR HENDERSON: When you purchase two mint body lotions, you can receive one at our gift shop half price.

PW: Wow!

CO: There you go. See, there's something for you to fall back on if this press gallery stuff doesn't work out for you.

PW: Absolutely. Absolutely.

CO: Now, Trevor's voice changed twice. Once it when he was 13 and then again when he was 16, he told us. [chuckle] So, were like this when you were a kid, or did your voice slowly become like your dad's?

PW: I would say slowly. Slowly, yeah. I wasn't yelling at the doctor after he slapped me. No, I wasn't doing that.

CO: [laughing] OK, so we're going to get you to do the opening of As It Happens with me, OK? So here, we're going to do it. Here we go. Hello, I'm Carol Off.

PW: Good evening. I'm Paul White. And this is As It Happens.

CO: [chuckling] That's my ringtone now. [PW chuckles] Paul is great to talk to you. Thanks.

PW: Pleasure. Thanks for your time.

CO: Bye.

PW: Bye-bye.

CH: I'm right here! [CO chuckles] Paul White does media relations for the Manitoba government. [Chris is upset] He was in Winnipeg. [Schminipege]

CO: OK, so do you sound like your dad? I mean, do you have a voice that commands attention and authority like Paul does?

CH: Yeah. [both laugh] I sound somewhat like my dad. I also sound like my grandfather who was a minister.

CO: OK?

CH: He had… he had a much... yeah, I don't know. He had more resonance than I have. But I don't think Paul sounded very good at the beginning. I just… I don't think he sounded great doing the As It Happens intro. Just... that was just me.

CO: He just... he’s a take charge guy. I have to tell you.

CH: I know! [chuckling]

CO: I’d be worried if I were you.

[music: Hip-hop beat]

Part 2: Veterans Flags Assembly of First Nations, Steller's Sea Eagle Nova Scotia

Veterans Flags Assembly of First Nations

Guest: RoseAnne Archibald

CH: Right now -- just as they have been every day since May 30th -- the flags on Parliament Hill are at half-staff. What's different now is that the flags were raised last week and then lowered for Indigenous Veterans Day. And tomorrow, they will be raised again in anticipation of Remembrance Day. The flags had been flying at half-staff in response to the discovery of hundreds of unmarked graves at the former Kamloops Indian Residential School in British Columbia. But the government says that after November 11th, the flags will return to the tops of their poles. RoseAnne Archibald is the National Chief of the Assembly of First Nations. She is in Ottawa.

CO Chief Archibald, what does it mean to you to see the flag on Parliament Hill lowered for Indigenous Veterans Day?

ROSEANNE ARCHIBALD: Well, it is historic. From what I'm told, it's the first time that the flag has been lowered to half-mast in honour of Indigenous veterans across Canada. So it feels very poignant, and I really feel that the veterans are being honoured today. And that feels really good.

CO: They will also be honoured on Remembrance Day on the 11th. But it... it was necessary to have a separate day to recognize Indigenous veterans. Can you say why that's the case?

RA: When veterans returned from the First and Second World Wars, they were entitled to veterans benefits as all veterans are, and they were not given those benefits. And that was really hurtful for the ones who did return home because we, of course, lost many veterans in those wars. Some of the most decorated veterans are Indigenous veterans such as Francis Pegahmagabow, Cameron Brant. Tommy Prince was another one. And, you know, they were hunters in their communities, and so that transferred into a skill that was very much needed. And I'm really glad that they do have a day that recognizes them and their contributions.

CO: The flag will be raised again after Indigenous Veterans Day and then lowered for Remembrance Day. And after that, it will be raised, and it will end the longest the flag has flown at half-mast in Canadian history, which was in recognition of the unmarked graves at residential schools, as we learned on May the 30th, that was when the flags were lowered. But they'll be raised again, and they will remain that way. What do you think of that decision?

RA: Well, first of all, it's not just unmarked graves. They're children. These are little... little, innocent human beings who died in what I call institutions of assimilation and genocide. And if anybody ever doubted genocide before these recoveries started, then they certainly cannot deny that any longer. And so, to me, when the flags were lowered on May 30th, it was in recognition of those children that they mattered. And so they did remain at half-mast because we continue to find and recover our little ones from these former institutions. And that process is going to take years. And raising it, it was something that the AFN Executive Committee discussed in detail and thought about and contemplated on how we could both honour those children and, at the same time, honour the respected veterans, all veterans. We also asked, unbeknownst to us, there are certain flag protocols that we weren't aware of when we passed the motion about getting the Every Child Matters flag raised on the Peace Tower. Not possible. We understand. But we were told that somewhere within Parliament Hill that the National Truth and Reconciliation flag, which was actually designed by survivors, would find a home, a permanent home. But more importantly, the government has agreed with our recommendation that the TRC calls 53, 54, 55 and 56, which have to do with the National Council on Truth and Reconciliation, that we do that work together, that we come up with a joint action plan, that we invest in that process to ensure that all 94 of the calls to action under the Truth and Reconciliation Commission are completed. And that, to me, is equally as important as gestures.

CO: Just that the protocol you mentioned that they're on the... the mast for the Canadian flag on Parliament Hill, there can be no other flag with it. And that's why they could not honour this request to have the Every Child Matters orange flag on the Peace Tower. But… and you point out, these symbols, these are... these are important symbols. But unless you see the action, it's meaningless, right?

RA: Mmm-hmmm. Exactly. And we... we certainly have a fair and reasonable expectation that more action will be taken. You know, before the election, 321 million was announced to assist in the process of finding our children. And also, there's some healing component to that funding, and we have presented the government with a draft document called the Healing Path Forward Accord, which could address the necessary actions we have to take together to continue to heal not only First Nations but to heal all of Canada. And I think that that's important because what I've heard from non-Indigenous Canadians is that they truly have been deeply impacted by the recovery of our children. And to know that we have such great allyship across Canada is something that, you know, hasn't been seen for a very long time. And I think we're in a new age that way where these allyships can really push for the changes that were long overdue changes that are needed to help us walk this healing path forward together so that everybody has a sense that we are healing and moving forward in Canada.

CO: I think you're so right about this. Chief Archibald, I think that there's been an enormous awakening for Canadians. And I appreciate hearing from you today. Thank you.

RA: Thank you, Carol.

CO: Bye.

RA: Bye.

CH: RoseAnne Archibald is the National Chief of the Assembly of First Nations. She was in Ottawa.

[Music: Glassy guitar]

SOD: Chorus Frog Protected

CH: Do you want to know what victory sounds like? Well, you might want to keep an ear out for the tell-tale call of a Western chorus frog.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: The chirping of a Western chorus frog. It sounds like rubbing a bamboo shoot on a harder wood]

CH: That's… that’s it. The tiny critters can fit on the tip of a human finger. But they've been at the centre of big legal battles south of Montreal. Municipal and private developers have wanted the little guys to scooch aside in the name of progress. But environmental groups have battled to protect the increasingly rare bits of swamp and field habitat that the Western chorus frog needs to survive. It was all supposed to come to a head with a court deadline set for today. But this morning, the Federal Environment Minister announced that he'd be exercising his power under the Species At Risk Act to issue an order protecting the Western chorus frog in and around the municipality of Longueuil, Quebec. Which brings us back to that sound of victory.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: The frog chip comes back up]

CH: That was a Western chorus frog, with our sound of the day.

[Music: Tuba and trombone!!]

Steller's Sea Eagle Nova Scotia

Guest: Diane LeBlanc

CH: Spotting a Steller's Sea Eagle is a feather in any birder's cap. They live in Asia and along the east coast of Russia -- and there are only a few thousand of them. So birdwatchers in Nova Scotia were extremely excited last week when one turned up there. And that Steller's Sea Eagle made headlines around the world for its trans-Atlantic tourism. But, despite being on top of every birder's "most wanted" list, it hasn't been seen in person since... in bird-person. Diane LeBlanc is the President of the Nova Scotia Bird Society. We reached her in Halifax.

CO: Diane, this Steller's Sea Eagle has not been seen in days. Where do you think he might be?

DIANE LEBLANC: Oh, that is a great question. I hope he's going to be in my backyard, but I suspect he may be far away. He could be anywhere. This is a bird that's gone from Alaska, probably went to Texas and then New Brunswick, Quebec and Nova Scotia. So it's capable of moving around.

CO: Is it fairly easy to identify?

DL: It is. It's a very large bird with a huge orange bill and a big white bar along its shoulder. Looks like an eagle, like our bald eagles, but it's larger. Our bald eagles are about nine pounds and maybe about three feet long. This bird's about 11 to 20 pounds and three-and-a-half feet long, so noticeably different. This is a bird that is probably capable of surviving a Nova Scotia winter. I think it's used to icy areas because it comes from eastern Russia and summers in Japan. So, you know, we want people to respect the bird, make sure the bird has space. But it's also a very large bird, very capable of moving around if it feels uncomfortable. So we think it will... you know, there's a chance that it will survive in North America for some time. We'll see.

CO: And you have seen this magnificent creature?

DL: Yes, I have. I'm one of the lucky ones.

CO: What strikes you most when you're in the presence of this creature?

DL: You know, it's hard to describe to people who are not birders. But when you hear about a bird like this being in your province, it is... your heart starts to pound. It's really difficult to focus on anything else. I just cancelled club meetings without any kind of permission and very abruptly. And drove maybe breaking a few laws as quickly as I could about an hour away to Falmouth. This bird is unbelievably magnificent. It is just like no other bird that you'd ever see. And because it's so... it's really as far as it could be from its home and such a rare visitor to our continent. You know, it's stunningly breathtaking. And, you know, you have a moment of just sheer joy and privilege in seeing this bird. And also, you're surrounded by people who are also really excited.

CO: So, an awesome experience from another hemisphere, right? Because this is an eagle that... whose native range is China or Japan or Korea, the east coast of Russia. Then, the first sighting of this magnificent creature in Alaska, as you mentioned. And then, a belief that it may have shown up in Texas then identified in Quebec, New Brunswick and now in Nova Scotia. But how... how can you be sure it's the same eagle?

DL: Well, luckily, we have photographs of this bird with its wings outstretched, and we can see that there is a white spot that... on its foliage, on its left wing, just behind its elbow that is particular to this particular bird. So we can tell, we're very confident that it is exactly the same bird. And it would be extremely rare to have two in the continent. So, you know, any sighting of this bird, you know, people would start to suspect that it's actually the same individual.

CO: What are the theories as to why he is so off course?

DL: You know, it's really hard to say how these birds go off course, but they do sometimes lose their ability to navigate. It's whatever internal mechanisms that they use to be able to know which direction to go to. Sometimes they get off track, and they end up just navigating the world in a different way than they... than the rest of the birds in their species.

CO: But how exhausting must this be for this creature?

DL: It's amazing. It doesn't look exhausted. I can tell you it looks really healthy. And I would suspect the most exhausting part was getting from Russia to Alaska or from Japan to Alaska. So it's probably, hopefully, been eating well and surviving well around Quebec and New Brunswick and Nova Scotia, as you said.

CO: At the same time, though, I mean, [chuckling] it's just… I mean, these are not lone wolves, are they, these birds? [chuckling] I mean, they... is it... what chances are this bird getting back to someplace where he might meet his soulmate?

DL: Yeah, I'd love to see that happen. And maybe we'll get pictures of it in Japan with that same spot on its wing. It is possible that it somehow will find its way back. And certainly, being away from its own species is a risk. And, you know, certainly, it has an effect, a negative effect on the bird.

CO: But then it would have to… to get back to its species,. to get back to its territory, it would be crossing the Atlantic and then another continent, right? I mean, it's a long way from home, isn't it?

DL: It is. It is. It's possible that it could go north and cross over the Arctic or even go west again. And, you know, it's hard to predict how these birds that are off track will go. So, you know, it's possible, but I don't think it's likely.

CO: So how far would he have to go in order to meet up with another bird of his species? If he came across the Atlantic?

DL: Well, it's about 7,500 kilometres from home. And I suspect it's about the same distance either way now over the Atlantic or over the Pacific.

CO: I would imagine the Nova Scotia birding community is... is all a-twitter about this?

DL: Yes, they... we all are. Everybody who was there and saw it, we're all excited. And everybody is kind of watching and asking other people to watch for this bird to see if we can find it again. I'm sure that there are a lot of researchers who would love to be able to know more about this bird. It's... it's hard to study, and seeing this individual in North America gives us a chance to maybe learn more about it.

CO: And no way of helping the bird get back to where it should be?

DL: If the bird were ill and were less mobile, we could capture it and maybe bring it back to its more native areas. It... that has been done with pelicans in the past, so it's possible to do that. But right now, there would be no way of catching this bird. You know, if you were to go within probably 100 metres or more, you know, that close to it, it would probably just fly off. And it's such a strong flyer. So there'd be really no way of helping at this point. But if it does become ill and it is captured, I think there'd be a lot of effort to try to help it.

CO: Diane, it's good to talk to you. Thank you.

DL: Thank you, Carol.

CH: Diane LeBlanc is the President of the Nova Scotia Bird Society. We reached her in Halifax.

[Music: Uke!]

NFL Same Name Sack

CH: After yesterday's game, Josh Allen was quietly exultant.

SOUNDCLIP

REPORTER: What sort of statement does this send to the rest of the league about you and about this team?

JOSH ALLEN: We're not going nowhere. You know, we are on our stuff. You know what I’m saying? We can be a really great defence.

CH: Whereas Josh Allen was despondent.

SOUNDCLIP

JOSH ALLEN: Credit to them. They came out, they wanted it more. And I put the ball in danger too... too often. Nipped us in the bud.

CH: It's true that Josh Allen had a tough game. And a big part of what made it so tough was Josh Allen. Yesterday, the Buffalo Bills played the Jacksonville Jaguars. The Bills were favoured to win by at least 14 points. Instead, they lost by the dispiriting score of 9 to 6, after their offence fizzled -- partly because of a disastrous performance by quarterback Josh Allen. And the Jaguars defense shone -- partly because of a tremendous performance by defensive end Josh Allen. Going into the game, both Joshes received a lot of good-natured teasing -- or "joshing" -- about having the same name. But when the two players met physically, things went very badly for Josh Allen, and phenomenally well for Josh Allen.

SOUNDCLIP

CHRIS COLINGSWORTH : Allen, hit from behind. And there it is! A sack for Josh Allen against Josh Allen. First time in NFL history that a player with the same name as the opposing quarterback has recorded a sack.

CH: Yes, Josh Allen of the Jaguars made history by sacking Josh Allen of the Bills. But Josh wasn't done ruining Josh's day.

SOUNDCLIP

CC: Bills trying to pick it up. They can’t Allen throws, intercepted! It’s Josh Allen intercepting Josh Allen.

CH: That was Josh Allen of the Jaguars making history again -- this time, by intercepting a player of the same name. And one quarter later, he would complete the same-name trifecta of shame, when the Bills' Josh Allen fumbled.

SOUNDCLIP

CC: The Jaguars come away with it. All indications were that Josh Allen was down. And now the other Josh Allen has the football.

CH: Ultimately, Josh Allen was his own worst enemy -- but Josh Allen didn't help. Both men have the same handle in that situation, but one had a better handle on the situation.

[Music: Surf rock]

Part 3: Temporary Hockey Statue, Condors Asexual Chicks, Vietnamese Singer Phuong Tâm

Temporary Hockey Statue

Guest: Jayna Hefford

CH: It's an exciting time for women's hockey in Canada. The national team is fresh off its first World Championship gold since 2012 and gearing up for the Beijing Olympics. Three-time Olympic gold medallist Kim St. Pierre is being inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame this week. And in Toronto, a new statue of an unidentified female player sits outside the Hall of Fame itself. The words beneath that statue are a reminder that despite the undeniable achievements of women in hockey, recognition -- and welcome -- haven't always followed. They read: "This Game is For Us All." And Jayna Hefford hopes it can be. She's a five-time Olympic hockey player and operations consultant for the Professional Women's Hockey Players Association. We reached her in Toronto.

CO Jayna, first of all, just describe this statue for me.

JAYNA HEFFORD: Well, the statue that was revealed today is a female hockey player who's leaning over the boards and looking as though she's, you know, cheering on her teammates or watching her team play. And it has a plaque on it that talks about the mission of the PWHPA and in partnership with Budweiser. And it's called "This Game is For Us All. So it's really about increasing visibility for women in hockey.

CO: And it can't be lost on anybody walking along that stretch of Front Street that it's right across the street from the Hockey Hall of Fame, where a very similar statue has been there for a long time. People love to go down and see it and get... and pose and have their pictures taken, which is about five boys climbing the boards trying to get on the ice. And so… and so that's... and this is a very, very similar kind of... of... of an image, right. So what's the message there?

JH: Well, I think the message is that we have one of the biggest weekends in the hockey schedule coming up with the Hockey Hall of Fame Weekend. You know, the hockey world comes to Toronto. And we're excited to see Kim St. Pierre be inducted as the eighth woman in the Hockey Hall of Fame. And it's always an amazing opportunity to put a spotlight on the women's game when they do induct a female player. So, we are also passionate about the sport, and we want to see it remain strong and growing and have it evolve and be, you know, really successful for years to come. And I think we're all starting to see that we need to find a way to include everyone in the future of hockey.

CO: And one of the places where it's not inclusive and where there's not much of a place is making a decent living as a female hockey player, right? Just maybe remind people why it's so difficult to do that?

JH: Yeah, I mean, women's hockey, we've never had a professional league for women or a professional opportunity where the women can be hockey players and can support themselves as hockey players. And even the women that we all cheer on so passionately every four years at the Olympic Games. And, you know, they bring our country such pride, and they provide so much inspiration for young girls and boys across this country. Then, we sort of often forget about them for the years in between. And, you know, we always say that if you can see it, you can be it. So that more girls feel like they can have a place in the game. And when women start to make a living in a sport, it's going to only help the sport grow.

CO: So it's not for want of trying, is it? I mean, there have been attempts to create a viable women's league. You... you yourself headed up the now-defunct Canadian Women's Hockey League. And now, you run the players association, which has been at odds with the six-team Premier Hockey Federation. So what stands in the way of getting more collaboration and getting that league together?

JH: Well, you know, starting a professional league is not easy, let alone starting a female professional league. We've seen it across numerous leagues in all different sports that it often takes a number of tries to get it right. And I think what... where we find optimism is looking at the success of the WNBA and the success of the NWSL. And what's... what that's going to take is, you know, some real work at building a strong foundation, putting a real business case in place. It can't be charitable. It can't be because people think it's the right thing to do. It has to be a business proposition. So, you know, we're putting the work in to try to make sure we build that foundation. Then, of course, it takes an investment. So we're looking for investors that see the value in this in the long-term and want to invest in this strong foundation so that we can change the culture and really change the trajectory of our sport for future generations.

CO: We talked to Hayley Wickenheiser just a... just a few weeks ago about this very thing and about all the excitement that we see, as you say, around the Olympics and then it sort of disappears. And so there are those who argue that, well, there just isn't enough interest from audiences in women's hockey. What do you say to them?

JH: Well, you know, there's never been an investment made in women's hockey. You know, when we hear the data and the research all the time. But less than four per cent of media coverage goes to women. So, if we're not going to promote them and we're not going to invest in them, it's pretty hard for people to find them and see where they are. But I will say, you know, when we look at the success again of other sports and even women, you know, in betting and gaming, I heard an interesting fact that 60 per cent of betting on the Olympics was on women and female sports. So the game is changing, and we're just trying to... to build that strong case and that strong foundation for future growth.

CO: Maybe one of the big differences, I mean, what we've been hearing so much is... especially covering the case of the abuse that Kyle Beach went through, and we're covering that for many days on this program. And what we hear sort of over and over again is the... the clubby old boys network nature of the culture of hockey. And so, I'm just wondering if what... what you need to see happen is part of... of a big piece? That the culture of professional hockey needs to change?

JH: Yeah, I think we've... we've all been talking now for quite some time about making hockey more inclusive. And I think the unique opportunity for us is that we're a players association, so we are looking to put this together with a players-first mentality. And, you know, as you mentioned, we've seen professional athletes, both male and female, speak out a lot lately about various types of abuse all across the sporting world. And, you know, obviously, we hope that those allegations are addressed properly, and steps are taken at an institutional level to help protect athletes. But for us, we have athletes front of mind.

CO: And just finally, this statue with the... with the female player, This Game is For Us All, I understand it's just temporary, though. Why is that the case?

JH: Well, this was a campaign and part of our partnership with Budweiser and the PWHPA, and it was really, again, it was meant to be bold and be creative and get people's attention and get people to start talking. And so, you know, it certainly isn't a permanent thing at this point. But what we're really looking to do is have people have the conversation. And that's a first step. And then, you know, we'll see after that.

CO: You got to make it permanent, Jayna!

JH: [Chuckle] We'll see about that. [CO chuckles] But we'd love to.

CO: All right. Thank you.

JH: Thank you so much.

CO: Bye.

JH: Bye.

CH: Jayna Hefford is the operations consultant for the Professional Women's Hockey Players Association and a five-time Olympic medalist. We reached her in Toronto.

[Music: Pop beat]

The Pas Viral Dance

CH: At a performance in San Francisco last week, Lizzo took a moment during her set to record a TikTok dance challenge with thousands of fans in the crowd. They were all doing the same move, to the beat of a Russian rap song, where you hold one hand in front of your torso and raise and lower the other while flicking it at the wrist. It looks kind of goofy, which is exactly why John McGinnis from The Pas, Manitoba -- about six hours north of Winnipeg -- started doing it in the first place. The 52-year-old didn't invent it, but he's credited with making it blow up. He's become hugely popular for doing it after taking a bite from a steaming hot plate of food. He now has nearly six million followers -- and he spoke to the CBC about his newfound fame.

MARCY MARKUSA: We have to describe this to their radio listeners. I've looked at a lot of your TikToks. You often are pouring melted cheese or gravy over fries, and you smile, you do a signature dance move.

JOHN MCGINNIS: Oh yeah. And then, yeah, that's my... I think I'm the first person to ever be happy for eating hot food. [MM laughs] Yeah, 'cause… and then they ask, do you burn your tongue? Or the roof of your mouth must be raw and all that. But I don't burn. I don't ever burn myself, yeah.

MM: I wondered that too! You got hot gravy. At one point, you pour it on a chicken sandwich, and it goes right in your mouth with no delay, so.

JM: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm just used to that, I guess, eating hot food like that. Yes.

MM: Tell me... tell me, how does it feel for you to have generated so many followers so fast?

JM: Oh yes, it's amazing, I guess. Yeah, it's not just in Canada. You're connecting with, like, people from England, then Greece and then the States and Thailand. And I think it's 'cause I smile, and it's all for fun, and I'm having fun. That's... that's what it's about, you know?

MM: I understand people in The Pas are now calling you famous.

JM: Oh yeah. But I'm just a regular guy from Manitoba. Yeah, I don't think I'm famous. I don't feel famous, no.

MM: Did you ever imagine, as you said, I'm around your age, so I didn't grow up with any of this either. Did you ever imagine you'd be a TikTok star?

JM: No, no. I just did it for fun just to get my mind off stuff. And, yeah, and then, I didn't realize how it'd blow up like this.

CH: That was John McGinnis of The Pas, Manitoba, speaking with Marcy Markusa, host of Information Radio in Winnipeg.

[Music: Jazz]

Condors Asexual Chicks

Guest: Cynthia Steiner

CH: In 2001, a California condor chick hatched. And in 2009, another one was born. And on both occasions, no one knew those two weird-looking little birds were special. Because it would later be confirmed that they were the first California condor chicks to be born from unfertilized eggs. That finding, and more about asexual condor reproduction, has just been published in The Journal of Heredity. Cynthia Steiner is with the San Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance, and is one of the authors of the paper. We reached her in San Diego, California.

CO: Cynthia, your colleague said your team wasn't looking for evidence of this, and it just, quote, hit us in the face. So when you first heard these two birds might have been born from unfertilized eggs, could you believe it?

CYNTHIA STEINER: Yeah, I was... I was very surprised, to be honest. And it was kind of like looking for more evidence to validate that. So I was surprised in the sense that this asexual reproduction that is going on in condors is well known in other species, but not super well known in birds. But after the appropriate analysis and… you know, and validating validating some of the genetic data, I was super excited to see that we were able to, you know, to find this as... as a very neutral process in California condors.

CO: OK, this is called parthenogenesis, right? So what exactly happened? How did these... how did these birds get born without being fertilized? What… just tell us... just a bit, [chuckling] and in layman's terms, what that means?

CS: Everybody knows about sexual reproduction, right? So you have an egg and sperm and you combine that and generate an embryo. So their sexual reproduction is a different process. So it's not about having a sperm fertilizing an egg. In this case, it's going to be a female that is going to contribute twice to the genetic information of that individuals. So it's going to be only the contribution of the female, and the double contribution coming from the female, that is going to create an embryo. And this embryo is going to reproduce into... is going to... is going to generate an individual.

CO: And so in this case, this is... the female produced these eggs, these chicks on her own, I guess, in two cases, and two different cases. And they produced... and are they male or female chicks?

CS: They have to be males, actually. So that's one of the... the evidence as well that is suggesting that these individuals were generated through parthenogenesis.

CO: OK, now is it... now, I know that condors are extremely rare. And that they are… there’s only some hundreds of them left, but it... was there... were there no males around for the female condors to breed with? Is that what happened?

CS: No, actually, it's not the case at all. So these females, they were actually paired with other males in the past, and they were able to reproduce sexually. So that's one of the unique features about this study. It’s not because the females were not able to find males for reproduction. So it was actually kind of like a spontaneous phenomenon. These females were producing eggs that were fertilized by males in the past, but they were also able to reproduce in this asexual way at some point in their lives.

CO: Now is it possible... I mean, given the fact that they are so close to being extinct and how challenging the environment is now, is it possible that this is a kind of biological response to the environment? To just how stressed these birds are?

CS: You know, this is... this is what some scientists they say. That this might be something that is actually helping some of these population, some of these species that are in very low abundance to create a new populations in the absence, for example, of one of the... the... the sexes. But it's just, in my opinion, interpretations of what might be ther reasons. We don't really understand fully parthenogenesis and the origin of parthenogenesis in some of the species. But it's true that a lot of people, they have suggest that as a way to explain why parthenogenesis happens in some of these populations that we know are really small in size. Or they are... they are creating, like, a new populations with a small number of individuals.

CO: is it something that perhaps it's happened in the past that there has been this parthenogenesis? And you just didn't have them as captive animals to be able to find out that they were having asexual reproduction?

CS: So we know that these individuals are the only ones so far since the establishment of the captive population in the 1980s. We know this is the only two individuals that we have that have been produced via parthenogenesis. Because, actually, we have the genetic data from all the individuals that were generated since that moment, since the 1980s, in our... in our databases here. So we know that so far, you know, only two individuals coming from two separate family groups were the ones that were able to be generated via parthenogenesis. What we don't really know is whether parthenogenesis is going to happen again. And, in my opinion, that's one of the most interesting questions here as well. Now that the population of California condors is bigger, so we're talking about more than 500 individuals, about 300 individuals in the wild. Now, the question is whether this phenomenon is going to happen again in... in individuals of the…. the live-in population since now we know that the population is doing much better in expanding.

CO: And are they these birds, the ones who have been asexually produced, are they healthy?

CS: So they both died, actually. So, in... one of them, one of the individuals was able to live up to two years. This individual was born in captivity but released back into the wild. And this individual was a little bit unfit in terms of not, like, integrating properly to the wild population, not eating well. So he died because he was kind of like underweight and not in a very good body condition. So, again, we don't know if that was something related to the parthenogenesis by itself? Or it was just, like, an ecological phenomenon of these individuals not being totally fit into the wild population. The other individual stayed in captivity, and he was able to live up to eight years. So we knew about these individuals, again, that was showing some physical... physical traits that were pretty much unique. So malformations in the back. This individual was underweight as well and is small in size. And in terms of behaviour, so we know that this individual was a very docile individual. It was a male, but it was not behaving as a... as a male in terms of like the regular courtship. It was put with some females, but he never actually mated with any females. So there are some traits that might be indicating that…. so the fact that these individuals, what we call parthenoindividuals, individuals that were generated via parthenogenesis, they were showing some unique physical traits.

CO: It's all very interesting. Cynthia, I appreciate you telling us about it. Thank you.

CS: No, thank you so much for your interest. This is very interesting for me as well.

CO: All right. Bye-bye.

CS: Bye.

CH: Cynthia Steiner is the associate director of conservation genetics at the San Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance. We reached her in San Diego. And you can find more on that story on our webpage at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: International]

Vietnamese Singer Phuong Tâm

Guests: Hannah Hà, Phuong Tâm

CH: Hannah Hà has always known her mother could sing. Whether it was around the house, at family gatherings, or on the karaoke stage -- she's always had an incredible voice and presence. But the traditional Vietnamese songs her mom used to sing never resonated with Ms. Hà. And she never really knew how her mom became such a talented singer. Until she heard this.

[Music: "Remember the Night" by Phuong Tâm]

CH: That's "Remember the Night" by Phuong Tâm. It's the first track off a new album called: "Magical Nights: Saigon Surf, Twist, and Soul." Phuong Tâm is the stage name of Ms. Hà's mom, Tâm. A name she never knew until recently. But over the past two years, Ms. Hà has slowly uncovered a musical past her mother kept secret for decades. During a brief period in the mid '60s, Phuong Tâm became one of the first singers to perform and record rock and roll in Vietnam. We reached Hannah Hà, and her mother, Tâm, in San Jose, California.

CO: Tam, we just heard a bit of you singing “Remember the Night”. So when you close your eyes and you listen to that recording, where does it take you?

PHUONG TAM: The song is... the music, “Có Nhớ Đêm Nào”, is mean remember the night, Yeah. I don't remember after I quit, you know, in 1966, when I married with my husband, you know, and I go to that night and I forget everything. I let it go behind me.

CO: But you wer such a phenomenon. You were a very big act on stage, and you had these recordings and everything you had. And you were famous in Saigon for your rock and roll.

PT: Yes, I know. But when I married, you know, I forget about it, yeah.

CO: You married and you had kids, and those kids are now grown up. And one of them is there. Hannah, hello.

HANNAH HA: Hi, Carol, how are you?

CO: I'm OK. [chuckling] When you hear your mum singing in the mid-1960s, rock and roll, what do you make of that?

HH: I grew up not really appreciating Vietnamese music. It was too slow for me. And a lot of it was traditional slow ballads, bolero. And I didn't have the ear for Vietnamese music. It was not until I heard my mom singing where it connected me to that culture that was lost. I started looking and searching, and was able to uncover almost 30 tracks that my mom sang. And most of them were rock and roll, which I didn't even know that Saigon had rock and roll music.

CO: [cuckle] But you didn't even know your mum was a rock and roll star in Vietnam, did you? You didn't know your mum had had this career before she got married and had you?

HH: I knew that she was a singer because a lot of Vietnamese people that lived in Saigon, they made a great living, singing and entertaining for the American soldiers and the businessmen. But they were all doing covers. They were doing covers of American music. Elvis Presley, The Beatles. So it was a complete surprise to hear Vietnamese rock and twist and blues. And my mother was the first to... one of the first to record those types of music.

CO: And these were original tracks, as you point out. These weren't covers. These were songs your mum created, composed and performed in Saigon in the 1960s, right?

HH: Yes. She rarely performed them live. The patrons, the listeners, the music-goers wanted her to sing American songs. So that's what we heard growing up. And completely had forgotten that she recorded these great Saigon rock music. The first song that you heard, “Có Nhớ Đêm Nào”, was a song that was written by a famous musician, Khánh Băng. He knew that my mother could sing rock and roll... American rock and roll music. And so he wrote this song and said, I want you to record this song with me. He came over to my mother's house. She was 18 at the time. And she was, of course, living in her parent's home. With the guitar slung on his back, and sat down and taught her the music. Within a day, they met at a studio and recorded that first track.

CO: Tam, do you remember that? You said you... you just left it all behind. You forgot about it when you got married. But do you remember doing these recordings of the songs?

PT: Yes. You know, since I was a teenager, I love American music, yeah.

CO: But you went on... you went on to do so many recordings. And, Hannah, you have found these recordings? Is that right?

HH: [chuckling] If I have to tell you. I have to give a shout out to everyone. And it was an international collaborative effort, Carol. We had a hard time finding the rest of the album. I had in my collection an eBay purchase of one album with three tracks. And so we had to cast a wider net and just had so many generous collectors helping us.

CO: Tam, when you hear the songs that you sang all those years ago, the songs that Hannah is finding, these recordings. What's it like for you to listen to those?

PT: Yeah. Well, she send the link to me, and I always cry. I always cry, you know? But it surprised with me.

CO: Why did you cry?

PT: Yeah, because I don't... I don't... I don't understand why I have that album, you know? I don't remember anything when I was in the singer, yeah.

CO: But your years of singing, you're recording in the mid-60s. It was a time of war. Your family had to finally leave in the 1970s. A lot of trauma at that time, right, Tam? It was a really difficult time. Do you think... do you think that was part of it?

PT: At that time, you know, very sad and wanted to entertain the G.I.

CO: They didn't know you had these wonderful rock and roll Vietnamese songs then?

PT: [chuckling] No, they didn’t. No. Yeah.

CO: You have a great voice. It's just listening to that is really something. And... and, Hannah, you’re really keen about sharing this music with a new generation of Vietnamese?

HH: I think this is going to serve as a springboard for what's to come. As I was doing the research, I felt that the culture of Vietnam before 1975 has been shattered by not only the destruction of the war, the physical destruction of the war, but... but also the erasure of culture, the erasure of anything that was produced before 1975 is gone. Forbidden, destroyed, burned, buried. The Phuong Tâm story is just one of those little pieces. And so, I'm hoping that this will serve as a springboard for other people to come forth and do projects like this so that we can learn a little bit more about what was lost. I am doing this for my kids and my grandkids, and so many people that want to cling on to Vietnam's culture before 1975, that didn't connect with the music of that time.

CO: Tam, we're going to play another song from your recordings. Do you have a favourite? Is there something that you'd like us to play?

PT: Yeah. The second song I love is Nếu Có Xa Nhau. It mean “If We’re Far Apart”

CO: “If We’re Far Apart”.

PT: Yeah.

CO: All right. We will play that for our listeners. Tam and Hannah, it's really delightful to speak with both of you. Thank you.

HH: Thank you so much, Carol.

PT: Thank you so much, Carol.

CO: Bye.

PT: Yeah. Bye.

HH: Bye-bye.

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November 8, 2021

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