Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2021

The AIH Transcript For October 28, 2021

[hosts]Carol Off, Chris Howden[/hosts]

PETER ARMSTRONG: Hello, I'm Peter Armstrong, sitting in for Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[music: theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

CO: The duo and the do over. COP26 is yet another chance for the world to take bold action against climate change -- and tonight, the new minister of natural resources makes the case for why he and the new environment minister are the right team to represent Canada.

CH: The man who loved to hate. Former Canadian army reservist and neo-Nazi Patrik Mathews is going to prison for plotting violence in the U.S. -- and we'll speak to the reporter who went undercover to expose him.

CO: A life cut short. The story was that an Afghan volleyball player was targeted by militants -- but now, a BBC correspondent says it's a lot more complicated.

CH: Passing sentence for passing sentences off. The Prime Minister of Luxembourg may face discipline from his alma mater after it turns out he plagiarized 96 per cent of his university thesis.

CO: The bearer of bat news. If the current front-runner wins the New Zealand Bird of the Year competition, it'll be a real feather in its cap -- which will be its only feather, because it's a bat.

CH: And... someone came clean and others followed suit. For the first time in years, a scandal involving Trumps has nothing to do with the former U.S. president -- and everything to do with widespread cheating in the game of bridge during the pandemic.

CH: As It Happens, the Thursday edition. Radio the thinks card cheats are a real deal-breaker.

[music: theme]

Part 1: Wilkinson: Cop26, Taliban Killing Update, Bird Of The Year

Wilkinson: Cop26

Guest: Jonathan Wilkinson

CH: Jonathan Wilkinson is one-half of the Canadian government's new climate duo. On Tuesday, Mr. Wilkinson made the move from minister of the environment to minister of natural resources. His old job went to the former climate activist Steven Guilbeault. Now, with the COP26 climate summit set to begin on Sunday in Glasgow, Canadians are about to learn whether the new duo is actually dynamic. We reached the minister of natural resources, Jonathan Wilkinson, in Ottawa.

CO: Minister Wilkinson, the view from the oil patch is that you and your colleague, Steven Guilbeault, are a team assigned to put the blocks to Canada's fossil fuel industry. Is there possibly some truth to that?

JONATHAN WILKINSON: No, I think what... what I was charged with before the cabinet shuffle was putting together Canada's climate plan that would be ambitious and aligned with what the science tells us we need to do in terms of reductions. But, of course, there was also a focus on economic growth and opportunity. How do you actually ensure that the economy is going to thrive in a low-carbon universe? And I've now been asked to head up an economic ministry that's really focussed on finding pathways to do that that are going to create jobs. And, you know, I'm not sure who in the oil sector you're talking to. But I I talked to a number of folks yesterday about this, and I would say that the reception in terms of the appointment was actually quite positive.

CO: How closely will you be working with your colleague in the... in the Environment Ministry, Steven Guilbeault?

JW: Well, I think we're going to be working very closely together. It's kind of two sides of the same coin. At the end of the day, his mandate is to continue to move forward with a number of elements of the plan, particularly around regulatory matters, and to try to ensure that we're continuing to be ambitious alongside our partners in the international realm. And my... my job, by and large, is to implement elements of the plan and to focus on how we actually drive growth.

CO: And so what will you be taking to Glasgow? I mean, this is... this is... Prime Minister Trudeau is saying it's time to move faster on the fight against climate change. The signal that people are taking from the choice of you and Mr. Guilbeault in these two ministries is that that's what you're planning to do. You're focussed on the energy sector. So what are you going to take to COP26?

JW: Well, we're taking with our enhanced target, one of the most detailed climate plans in the world. Canada's commitment to double its international climate finance envelope. The work that I did with Germany to land the $100 billion for international climate finance for the developing countries around the world, which is a key part of a successful COP in Glasgow. And... and we're bringing essentially Canada's openness in collaborating on closing the Paris rulebook and finishing the final negotiations, but also encouraging other countries that have not yet raised their level of ambition to do so.

CO: I guess the criticism that comes from those in the environmental movement and those who you probably meet in Glasgow is that Canada continues to produce and increase its production of oil and gas, and that the report out today from Oil Change International says Canada's financial support for the oil and gas industry outpaces every other country in the G20. And so, investments in renewables, they say, are lagging far behind. So how do you square that with what you've just said? That your commitment to making this transition?

JW: Well, I would say, I guess a few things. I mean, the first is absolutely we do need to reduce emissions from all sectors of the economy, and that very much includes the oil and gas space. As you... as you will be aware, one of the commitments we made during the campaign was to cap emissions from oil and gas and to have five-year binding requirements in terms of reductions on a pathway to net-zero by 2050. But I mean, let's be clear, and this government has been enormously ambitious on climate. We have developed perhaps the most detailed climate plan that exists in the world. The international community has sat up and taken notice of Canada's work. And that is why the United Kingdom, as the chair of COP, asked Canada and Germany to co-lead on... on corralling $100 billion in climate finance. Canada is punching above its weight on the world stage with respect to climate change. We intend to continue to do so.

CO: But plans and actions are different things, aren't they? And when you talk about, first of all, let's talk about the net-zero by 2050 that you expect to have in the oil patch. You're not talking about... you're talking about the emissions that would come from producing oil and gas, right? You're not talking about reducing the amount of oil and gas that’s actually extracted. And, in fact, the projections are that Canada will be increasing its oil production by about a million barrels per day for the next 20 years. And so, we're not slowing down the oil and gas production, are we?

JW: Well, as I say, I mean, we made a commitment to cap emissions from the oil and gas sector as part of this transition that will happen over the coming years. There's only two ways that you can reduce emissions. One is through improvements in emissions intensity and the other is through declines in production. And certainly, part of the focus has to be on essentially displacing demand for oil, which is primarily a transportation fuel. In Canada, we are leading on that... on that in the sense that we've committed to 100 per cent of cars sold after 2035 will be zero-emission vehicles. They won't use oil. And Canada will continue to work with other parties around the world to collaborate, but also to try to encourage the same ambition on the part of other countries.

CO: But you're OK with the export of oil and gas, that these fossil fuels would go someplace else as long as Canada reduces the amount of emissions it puts out in producing the oil and gas that it exports?

JW: No, that's not what I said. What I said was that we clearly have to reduce the demand for the combustion of hydrocarbon fuels everywhere around the world. And Canada is going to be part of that domestically through the work that we do on regulations around zero-emission vehicles and internationally through helping others to do exactly the same thing.

CO: So how do you reduce that when Canada is continuing to supply billions of dollars in support to the oil and gas industry and the oil industry is committed to making more extractions every year for the next 20 years?

JW: Well, I mean, first of all, the first part of your... your... your... your question I'm not sure is entirely accurate --

CO: OK. What is... what is... what is the dollar figure then? OK. No, no. If you’re going to --

JW: We've made a commitment to... to eliminate fossil fuel subsidies initially by 2025, alongside our G20 partners. In the campaign, we actually agreed to accelerate that to 2023. So we're ahead of everybody else in the G20. We clearly need to continue to reduce fossil fuel subsidies, and we're on record as saying that we are going to eliminate them.

CO: OK. But you still providing not just subsidies. There’s other supports besides subsidies. And at the same time, the production of oil and gas is going to continue and increase every year, right? For the next 20 years.

JW: No, I'm not sure that's true. And there are various projections from various different agencies. As I say. At the end of the day, what we've said is we will cap emissions. There are only two ways to reduce emissions. One is emissions intensity reductions and the other is reductions in production. And, of course, we are going to be working towards achieving the net-zero number by 2050, which is aligned with what science says we have to do.

CO: All right. We'll leave it there. Minister Wilkinson. Thank you.

JW: All right. Thanks very much.

CH: Jonathan Wilkinson is Canada's minister of natural resources. We reached him in Ottawa. And you can find more on that story on our webpage at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient]

Taliban Killing Update

Guest: Lyse Doucet

CH: Many female athletes in Afghanistan are living in fear -- that they'll be targeted because of their involvement in sport. Last week, we highlighted the story of one athlete -- a member of the women's volleyball team -- who died. We told you about a report that Mahjabin Hakimi had been beheaded, likely by the Taliban. And we spoke to one of her coaches -- who is also a former player -- who said she believed her teammate had been killed by militants, although she was unsure of who exactly was responsible. Now, more information has been emerging about her death, raising questions about what really happened to Ms. Hakimi. To explain, we reached the BBC's chief international correspondent, Lyse Doucet.

CO: Lyse, how much more difficult is it to determine the facts in Afghanistan these days?

LYSE DOUCET: This is a problem of our time. Never have we had so much information literally on our fingertips. But at a time of unprecedented information, we have unprecedented misinformation, misunderstanding and manipulation, which makes our jobs as journalists all the tougher. And this recent tragic story of a 25-year-old volleyball player, Mahjabin Hakimi, is a very sad example of this.

CO: OK, so in this story, we reported last week that she died not long after the Taliban took over in Kabul. And then, now that seems to be wrong. So let's just try and get some facts about what actually happened to Mahjabin Hakimi. When did she actually die, as far as you know?

LD: What is known now is that she died on August the 6th. So that is nine days before the Taliban swept into power in Kabul. After that, it gets murky. I think on the balance of the reporting since the story first surfaced this month, it seems clear it wasn't the Taliban who beheaded her. The reporting by colleagues at the BBC, and also very good reporting by an Afghan women's organization, takes us through with much more investigation, which tells us that it wasn't likely the Taliban who beheaded her. Her body was found in the home of the parents of her fiance. The family say that she committed suicide in her fiancee, Majid, says this. But her friends, including a friend of hers, 23-year-old Zahra, who has left the country, believes that it is the family of her fiance who actually killed Mahjabin.

CO: Zahra, who is reported to have seen the body of her friend, is herself a trained police officer. So what did she observe? What were her concerns about the story that somehow this would have been a suicide in the part of Mahjabin Hakimi?

LD: Yes, we should underline that Mahjabin is not just a very good volleyball player. She was also a member of the special forces, so she too was part of the security establishment. Yes, Zahra reported that when she looked at the body, the photograph, which emerged on social media, showed her throat was slit, and this is how she had killed herself. But she said the body that she was shown, and it must have been so distressing for her, they were very close, it looked undisturbed as if there had been no sign of any kind of resistance. She also said that the one family member asked them to lie, to say that they had seen Mahjabin alive in the house before then the body was found. So that disturbed her. Evidence, if you like, at the crime scene, which she felt didn't add up. What we hear not just from her friend but also from relatives that my BBC colleagues have spoken with, was that there was a lot of tension in the family. Mahjabin's fiance wanted her to leave her job. He didn't like the fact that she was working... working at all, and in particular working in the special forces. She was talking about how she was trying to convince the family to allow her to go back. Also, she had applied for a visa to go to the United States, one of these special immigrant visas. Her fiance and his family members also didn't like that. So again, this was a very unhappy situation for Mahjabin in many different ways.

CO: The story about her being assassinated by the Taliban is wrong. What would be the reasons for putting that story out?

LD: These are life and death issues for many... for many Afghans. They want to weaponize the internet to attack the Taliban. And Taliban do much the same. And, of course, many are prepared to believe the worst about the Taliban because the Taliban are, it seems with some of the reports that the BBC and other news media have been able to verify, they have been carrying out some beheadings, some revenge attacks and retribution. So people are willing to believe every time a story emerges. And also, those who want to cover up crimes, it's very easy for them to say, ah, the Taliban did it. So that may be many of the reasons. Was it also that it comes at a time where so many Afghans are desperate to leave the country? And why members of the volleyball team are still saying only to members of our team have gotten refuge. Everyone has to be taken to safety. It is clear that the future of these volleyball players, these athletes, is threatened now. We've already seen that members of the... many of the football teams have successfully left the country. The Taliban haven't ruled on women's sport, although some members of the Taliban have said that women will not be allowed to wear their same uniforms. They won't be able to play in public because, you know, that's un-Islamic. There isn't an official ruling, but it seems clear that the kind of sporting lives that so many of this young generation had been able to enjoy is no longer possible. So it's not surprising that many of them want to leave the country. Some of them feel directly threatened. They say they have got threatening calls, threatening messages from the Taliban, but all of them to a person would feel that the future they dreamed of, the lives they loved, the sports they cherished is no longer possible.

CO: What we do know about this young woman is that from all accounts, she was a spirited, talented young woman who had a career, loved her sports, loved volleyball. And now, she's dead. And if she was murdered, if she was killed, did the killers do it with impunity? Will we ever know who killed her?

LD: It's the story of injustice, isn't it? This didn't begin with Taliban rule in Afghanistan, and it won't end with the Taliban coming to power. This was happening time and again. You know, in the last year in Afghanistan, we saw targeted killings, assassinations. People have been shot dead in broad daylight, schoolgirls being blown up. Their families are still looking for justice. They still really don't know who killed their sons, their daughters, their loved ones. It is sadly a story which happens all too often, and it's still happening. And for the family, her family is very distressed. Not knowing what happened. I mean, who listening to this program now wouldn't feel that something in their hearts. It's such a hard time in Afghanistan.

CO: Lyse, as always, your insights and your knowledge are very helpful to us. Thank you so much.

LD: It's always good to talk to you, Carol. Thank you.

CH: Lyse Doucet is the BBC's chief international correspondent. Today, we reached her in Bathurst, New Brunswick.

[Music: Acoustic guitar]

Bird Of The Year

Guest: Laura Keown

CH: New Zealand's Bird of the Year contest has been running for 16 years now. It's generally a fun competition: politicians get involved, memes get memed, and some people even create fake Tinder accounts on behalf of the birds to garner votes. But this seemingly harmless project to bring people together also tears people apart. There have been controversies in the past. And there's one now. Because this year, a rogue candidate was added to the list. And it's currently out in front, which is controversial because it's a bat. Which is not a bird at all. Laura Keown is the spokesperson for New Zealand's Bird of the Year. She joined us from Nelson, New Zealand.

CO: Laura, a bat is a mammal, right? So what is a bat doing on this year's Bird of the Year list?

LAURA KEOWN: It's true! There is a sneaky mammal who only comes out at night and has snuck its way into the bird list, but it is New Zealand's only native land mammal. So it's a pretty special little species. And it doesn't get much attention all on its own in its own category over there. Mammal of the Year was going to be a really boring competition. So we thought it was a great awareness-raising opportunity for our native bat. And people have been getting really excited about it.

CO: OK, and so it's actually leading the pack at this point, right?

LK: That's right. I guess it's been getting so much attention, such a unique species, that it's topping the leaderboard, our native bat. But I'm sure the other birds, you know, they're very feisty. The claws will come out, [CO chuckles] and they'll fight right to the end.

CO: People will be in a flap about this, I'm sure.

LK: Oh, it's definitely ruffled some feathers.

CO: [chuckling] All right. Can you... can you describe... [LK chuckles] because thinking of having no feathers, can you describe the New Zealand bat for us?

LK: Yes, it's only a little bat. And so its wingspan is about the size of your outstretched hand. And it's little furry body is only about the size of your thumb. And our bats live in tree roosts, so they look for those nooks and hollows in very old trees. So they need a really special habitat, that old-growth, native forest. And they come out at dusk. And they can fly up to 60 kilometres per hour, whipping around eating insects and mosquitoes at night. They're really great for controlling insects, providing a great service, and they're also really cute.

CO: And bats are controversial right now, aren't they? I mean, some... and some people think they've got a bad rap because they've been blamed for COVID and all kinds of diseases. But as you just point out, all those insects that it's eating. So, I mean, it's a bit of a balanced act, right?

LK: Yeah, it's... it's a bit of a shame that maybe the first thing people think of at the moment when they hear bat is that... is the global pandemic. But we're hoping to change that all around. So maybe, hopefully, if our bat kind of makes history by winning a bird contest, they can get famous for that instead.

CO: This bird contest in New Zealand is kind of a big deal, isn't it?

LK: Oh, it's huge, yes. Bird of the Year is a bit of a cultural phenomena. There are over 70 birds on our list, and that's not even all of our native birds, which people go online to www.birdoftheyear.org.nz, and they learn all about the birds, and they vote for their favourites, and then they'll jump online and make memes and videos to try to encourage other people to get involved in the voting and get excited about protecting nature. They love to celebrate our native birds.

CO: How strenuously do people campaign for their bird of choice?

LK: Oh, you wouldn't believe it, Carol. There's coalitions. So this year, we've got all the seabirds have banded together, and they're using the hashtag #seabirdsnottreebirds. [CO chuckles] There's a coalition between the bat and the New Zealand robin. So Batman and Robin, obviously, the dynamic duo. There are videos and animations. TikTok campaigns, like the little spotted Kiwi and the albatross, have TikTok accounts. And my personal favourite is one of our birds, the Mohua, has its own Tinder profile, so people who are swiping looking for love can fall in love with a native species.

CO: It must be very stiff competition. You have some spectacular birds in New Zealand, so how can these... these little fellows actually compete with things like the Kākāpō?

LK: Yes, we've got those famous flightless species like the Kiwi and the Kākāpō and the Tawaki. You know, these are really unique birds. We've got amazing parrots like the Kea and the Kākāriki. And I just want to shout out our seabirds as well. Because seabirds don't often win Bird of the year, but we've got incredible penguins like Hoiho and little penguin, the smallest penguin in the world. And, of course, our albatross. But there's this wee bat that actually a lot of people have never heard of and don't know much about, and I think that's why it's captured people's imaginations.

CO: Do you think that that's going to win?

LK: Well, I'm not sure what's going to happen in the last few days of voting, but it's got a pretty good head start. So for all the bird nerds who want to make sure that the avian democracy retains a bird leader, they should jump on [CO chuckles] and vote for birds while they still can. But I know the bat... the bat people are… [chuckle] the bat people are equally excited. And they're jumping in to ensure that their bat will win.

CO: All right, sounds quite batty. But you had some controversy in the past with the… in the Bird of the Year contest when you had suspected Russian meddling in the vote in 2018. Is that right?

LK: [chuckle] Yes, Bird of the Year is no stranger to controversy. We had, I think it was only about 100 or 150 votes from Russia in 2018, which some people wanted to flag as potential voter fraud or voter interference. But I need to clear the name of those Russian bird lovers because those were all legitimate votes. There was nothing wrong with those international votes. And we even share birds with Russia. We have a migratory bird called the bar-tailed godwit, who migrates all the way to Russia and all the way back to New Zealand every year. So, there's no reason to suspect that the voting has been fixed. And we do keep an eye on things to make sure that we have a free and fair bird election.

CO All right, so if Canadians, having listened to this interview, decide they're going to vote, you won't... you don't suspect us of some kind of conspiracy then?

LK: Oh, I... no, I can't imagine. And Canada, I think, is the... is the fourth most common country that we... that we get votes from. So, yeah, get involved!

CO: All right. It sounds like a lot of fun. Laura, it's great to talk to you. Thanks.

LK: Yeah. Thanks, Carol.

CO: Bye.

LK: Bye.

CH: Laura Keown is the spokesperson for New Zealand's Bird of the Year. She's in Nelson, New Zealand.

[Music: A jig]

Luxembourgish Prime Minister Plagerism

CH: Never let the fear of striking out keep you from playing the game. Words to live by. Not my words, mind you. They're Babe Ruth's. But I thought it might work to use them. You know what they say: "You miss 100 percent of the shots you don't take." And by they, I mean Wayne Gretzky. See, it's really not that hard. Quote. Attribute. Everyone wins. But Xavier Bettel seems to have disagreed. And now it turns out he missed 96 percent of the shots he did take. At least, that's what the Luxembourgish Prime Minister appears to have done in his university thesis, 22 years ago. According to an investigation by the online magazine reporter.lu, 54 of the 56 pages of that thesis contained plagiarized passages. That’s 96 per cent. And that's a lot of plagiarism. Prime Minister Bettel has subsequently said, with deeply moving contrition, that the work, quote, "could have -- yes, maybe should have -- been done differently." Unquote. That's the kind of eloquent admission that helps explain why the head of state might have been inclined to borrow from the heads of others. His alma mater, the University of Lorraine, is now investigating, and exploring possible sanctions. So at this point, the PM shouldn't stretch out the discomfort. It's time for him to rip off the Band-Aid. And after all, he seems comfortable ripping stuff off.

[Music: Surf rock]

Part 2: Patrik Mathews Sentenced, Bridge Cheating Drama

Patrik Mathews Sentenced

Guest: Ryan Thorpe

CH: A former Canadian army reservist is about to begin a lengthy stay in a U.S. prison. Today, Patrik Mathews was sentenced to nine years for what the FBI says was a neo-Nazi plot to start a race war in the United States. The plan involved attacking a gun-rights rally -- in order to set off a conflict between armed protesters and police. Mr. Mathews was also exposed as a recruiter for the white supremacist group The Base. Ryan Thorpe is a reporter for the Winnipeg Free Press who went undercover as a prospective member of The Base. He's been covering Patrik Mathews' trial. We reached him in Greenbelt, Maryland.

CO: Ryan, I understand Patrik Mathews spoke to the judge as at his sentencing hearing. What did he have to say to the judge?

RYAN THORPE: Patrik Mathews' statement to the court was... was a little bit all over the place, to tell you the truth. He definitely said that, you know, he regretted fleeing Canada after he was exposed as kind of engaging in a recruitment campaign for the neo-Nazi paramilitary group called The Base. He said that he had fallen in with the wrong group of people, and that, you know, when he was in the United States that there almost became a competition among members of this neo-Nazi organization in terms of who could be the most extreme. But one thing that the sentencing judge said in response to that statement was that he didn't hear an apology to the United States for having come to this country illegally with the intent to attack it and destabilize its democracy. And that he also didn't hear, you know, kind of a full-throated expression of contrition or remorse. And that Patrik kind of didn't really make clear whether or not he still holds the same views that ultimately led him into this violent neo-Nazi organization.

CO: You got a sense of those views up close and personal. When you went undercover to do the story on The Base, you met Patrik Mathews. You exposed him as a recruiter. The things he said to the judge that he got involved with the wrong people. He's not someone who hurts people. I'm not a mean person. How does that square with the man that you met in Manitoba?

RT: Yeah, Patrik’s statement in terms of his kind of personal character. And, you know, he kind of presented himself as someone who is incapable of hurting others, you know, and that he didn't have any sort of, you know, hatred in his heart and that he judged people as individuals. It didn't square at all with the individual that I met in Winnipeg, you know, about two years ago now, as I went undercover to infiltrate this organization. Because on an hour meeting in Winnipeg, he was... you know, when he thought that he was speaking to a like-minded Confederate, he was spewing racial hatred, and he was talking about committing acts of violence, and he, you know, was using violent, misogynistic language. And you know, Mathews’ presentation of himself today also doesn't square with the evidence in this case.

CO: This conviction and the sentence of nine years, this is for what he... the FBI found him doing. This is for what he did in United States. This is after he left Canada. After you had exposed him and the RCMP had... had raided his home. And... but then he fled to the states where he did all these things. So when you read the kinds of things that he was planning to do, he and his group, how alarmed are you that you expose this man in Manitoba? And yet, he went on to possibly commit some really heinous crimes in the U.S.?

RT: Yeah, I think it's very concerning. I think in some sense, everything that happened, you know, after I... my initial articles on this story back in August 2019, I think it vindicates the level of concern I had from the get-go. You know, I wouldn't have taken the steps I did in this story if I didn't think this individual and this organization posed a potential serious threat to my community in Winnipeg. So I felt the need to kind of chase this story as... as hard as I did. And you know, the fact that today Patrik Matthews and his co-conspirator, Brian Lemley Jr., are being sentenced in federal court in Greenbelt, Maryland, I think, you know, is testament to the fact that there was a cause for concern from the get-go.

CO: One of the things the judge said was that he was convinced that this was not just all talk, that these men, including Patrik Mathews, really intended to do what they were doing. What might he have done? What were they planning?

RT: The conversations that they were having ranged from, you know, everything as kind of far-fetched as breaking Dylann Roof out of, like, a maximum-security prison. Dylann Roof, of course, being the perpetrator of the Charleston church shooting. They discussed the possibility of going down to this pro-gun rights rally in Richmond, Virginia, and shooting a state politician with a sniper rifle. They discussed, you know, attacking law enforcement, killing federal police officers, killing state police officers. So they had a wide range of kind of plots that they were, you know, considering looking into, trying to gauge the feasibility of.

CO: You read the transcripts of these.... these... all these extraordinary conversations, what was going on among... in this group, The Base. Your name came up a number of times, didn't it? What was... what was Patrik Mathews saying about you?

RT: Well, I know that there was one point in time while he was under investigation by the FBI that he effectively said something like that, you know, what I had done exposing him as a member of this violent neo-Nazi group, who was also a member of the committee in the military, deserved the death penalty. You know, I remember when I was undercover in this organization, there was open talk about murdering journalists. You know, it's fair to say that this organization isn't fond of the press broadly. And, you know, certainly isn't a fan of me in particular.

CO: What was it like when you read that? When you're reading these transcripts and seeing your name, that you're being discussed as someone that one of... among all of the people that they say that they want to kill, that you're one of them?

RT: It wasn't surprising to me, to be honest. I mean, I knew... I didn't have any illusions about these people, right? And... and I wasn't cavalier about what I did when we moved forward on publication. And, you know, I kind of revealed not only to the world, obviously, but also to this organization that I had infiltrated them and that it wasn't a like-minded neo-Nazi or white supremacist. That I was a, you know, an investigative reporter. I kind of expected that there was going to be blowback, that there was going to be threats against me, that they would want to do me harm. And so when that came to pass, you know, it didn't come as a shock or surprise.

CO: Ryan, we'll leave it there. And it's good to speak with you again. Thank you.

RT: Yeah, thank you for having me on.

CH: Ryan Thorpe is a reporter for the Winnipeg Free Press. He’s in Greenbelt, Maryland. If you'd like to know much more about Ryan Thorpe's infiltration of The Base, you can find that in the CBC podcast, White Hot Hate. Find it in the CBC Listen app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Music: Ambient]

API

CH: By now, big oil executives are used to being compared to tobacco executives of yore. And today, the comparisons were apt. Just as the CEOs of largest tobacco companies in the United States were called to testify before Congress in 1994, the heads of Shell, ExxonMobil, BP America, and Chevron appeared before the House Oversight Committee today. The chair of that committee, Democratic Congresswoman Carolyn Maloney, accused their predecessors of, "obviously lying like the tobacco executives were." Today, all four oil company heads were careful to assert that they believe in climate change -- and that their industry contributes to it. But Committee member Ro Khanna argued part of the problem is that they fund groups that undermine those beliefs. Groups like the American Petroleum Institute -- or API.

SOUNDCLIP

RO KHANNA: Here's what's so frustrating, because I actually think... I don't think... I really don't think you're as bad as the CEOs of the past. I don't. I think you have tough jobs. You got there. You've got a horrible record on stuff. You're figuring out how you don't get into litigation trouble while really trying to tell the truth. It's a tough act. I mean, I don't envy you. And I don't believe you purposely want to be out there spreading climate disinformation. But you're funding these groups, and they're really having an impact. You know, they're spending millions of dollars in Congress to kill electric vehicles. And they're spending millions of dollars against the... the... the methane gas. And you can do something here. You can tell them to knock it off for the sake of the planet. You could end it. You could end that lobbying. Would any of you take the opportunity to look at API and say, stop it? Any of you? Will you commit to could… could you commit, any of you? Would... Ms. Watkins? Come on! I mean, will you do something here? Would you commit to saying you're not going to fund any group that's going to engage in climate disinformation, at least?

GRETCHEN WATKINS: Chairman Khanna, what I'll commit to is continuing to be an active member of the API. And we discuss many issues in the API, some of which have to do with climate policy. And I'm really pleased that we’ve…

RK: Let me ask this, would any of you commit to having an independent audit to verify that you're not funding... that none of your funds are going for climate denial? Let me ask this, all of you... raise your hand if you think the climate crisis is one of the most important crises that humanity faces? Just raise your hand. I think all of you do. It's important? Yes, that's right. And you know, I understand you fund things for a lot of reasons. You're the CEOs. You can't track all the details. But if your money is going to organizations that are against the fundamental values that you claim you stand for, don't you think you have some obligation to monitor where the money is going?

CH: Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna, questioning Shell Oil Company President Gretchen Watkins and other oil industry executives at a House Oversight Committee hearing today.

[Music: Piano]

Bridge Cheating Drama

Guest: AJ Stephani

CH: Bridge has a reputation as a mild-mannered, prim, and proper game. Sure, things might get a bit heated if someone doesn't keep their cards close to their chest or make good on their contract. But, at worst, someone gets called out for stealing all the chocolate-covered macadamia nuts in the Bridge Mix. But during the pandemic, the sordid underbelly of the professional bridge world has been exposed. And now, the game is embroiled in an ongoing scandal -- full of accusations of cheating, player suspensions, and forfeited six-figure paycheques from sponsors. AJ Stephani is the chair of the appeals and charges committee for the American Contract Bridge League, which is North America's biggest bridge federation. We reached him in Cincinnati, Ohio.

CO: AJ, what is happening to contract bridge? Is it in trouble?

AJ STEPHANI: Is it in trouble? I'm not sure I would use that term. It's certainly facing challenges that it hasn't faced before. We've had our share of scandals in the past, but this one is a little different.

CO: Why is it different? How much bigger is it?

AS: We don't know. We don't know how big it is. As I... as I mentioned, we've had some cheating scandals in the past, but they've almost always been at the highest levels of the game. This cheating scandal is a little different, in part because it does affect probably hundreds, if not thousands, of non-world-class players.

CO: But are they cheating... they're not cheating... then for reward. Are they cheating just because they can get away with it?

AS: Probably. You know, it's become, and I hate to... I hate to use the word easy that's what people seem to say. That it's so easy to cheat that bridge. You know, pre-COVID, the overwhelming majority of bridge was played in a face-to-face setting. So you were at the same table with your partner, but also with your opponent. And that meant that it was really difficult to cheat, right? You couldn't talk to your partner and tell your partner, hey, I have five spades in my hand, or I have the ace of diamonds. I want you to lead a particular suit. So the cheating in the past has been very… it's tended to be very premeditated. You know, they would orient their pen in a certain way on the table, or they would play a card in a certain direction. The more rough and ready signals were how many times you sneezed or coughed, right? Or... or foot-tapping. But now everybody's playing in their house. Nobody's there to listen in on you. So it... it's been, I'll say, very tempting.

CO: [laughing] OK. But at the same time, there seems to be, for those who play bridge, there's a culture around it. And you described, I mean, some, yes, there are those people who will take sips of their drink in a certain way and send a coded message. But for the most part, it's a genteel kind of activity, isn't it? It's something you picture rich people playing on their yachts. And so, does this contradict how we should look at the world of bridge?

AS: Not in a good way, right? I hope people don't get turned off by bridge. Bridge has lots of other challenges. As you noted, people think of it as, you know, something that the upper crust does that, you know, rich people do on their yachts. In fact, modern bridge traces back to 1925. It was basically created on a yacht by... by Harold Vanderbilt. But it's a terrific game. And you're right. There is a very strong ethical... set of ethical norms surrounding the play of the game. And when you first get into it, you're kind of brought into that culture of ethics where you don't communicate information to your partner, and you don't do certain things at the table that might lead your partner to think that you're bluffing or you have more cards than you think in a particular suit. This has kind of blown that wide open.

CO: Yikes! OK, so now you're with the American Contract Bridge League. You are the chair of the Appeals and Charges Committee, which is kind of like the Supreme Court of Bridge, right?

AS: Yes.

CO: So… so what kinds of cases are coming before you? What are you... what are some of the some of the stories that you're getting?

AS: Most of the cheating online is two partners communicating to each other about what is in their hands, right? Probably because they're on the phone or they're texting to each other, or they simply live in the same house, and they're talking to each other. Now, we don't have videotape, right? We can't tell definitively that people are on the phone with each other. We're not going into phone records or anything like that. So we have to look at their results. We have to look at how they are playing their hands, how they are making opening leads, what their quality of play is when they are declaring the hand, which is a little bit different than being on defence. And we're inferring the fact that they're communicating with each other from their results and from the way they played the hand.

CO: And what's... what's the punishment? Are you banished for life from bridge if... if you find them guilty?

AS: Most people aren't expelled from the organization. Now, in the American Contract Bridge, which covers Canada, the U.S., Mexico and also Bermuda. We don't have authority over players playing in Europe that are playing in European games. Of course, the European players can play in our game, and then we have authority to suspend them for a number of years. We have a probation that we put them on, so we're making sure that we're keeping our eyes on them. And there are a variety of other disciplines. Expulsion is really reserved for the worst offenders at the highest level of the game, who have been cheating for a long time and have caused, you know, kind of irreparable damage to the game.

CO: Yikes!

AS: But most people are suspended for some number of years, depending upon the factors.

CO: So, just in closing, can the world of bridge survive this scandal?

AS: Absolutely. I hope so. Whether... whether we can survive our other challenges is probably the bigger question. People still love bridge. And we still have a lot of work to do to clean it up even more. People need confidence that they're playing an honest game. We really need to reach out to younger people. We really need to do a great job evangelizing the game and showing people just what a great mind sport it really can be. It is a marathon for your mind. And once you get into it, you just can't leave it.

CO: But nobody wants dirty bridge.

AS: Right.

CO: So I guess you got your work to do. AJ, it's good to talk to you. Thanks.

AS: Thank you, Carol. Thanks so much.

CO: Bye.

AS: Bye-bye.

CH: AJ Stephani is the chair of the appeals and charges committee for the American Contract Bridge League. We reached him in Cincinnati, Ohio.

[Music: Jazz]

SOD: Dinosaur Jack Black

CH: The United Nations just called an unusual witness to testify about the dangers of fossil fuel. He's very big, he's very old, and he can't sit down due to his tail. But he knows how dangerous climate change can be firsthand. Well, first-claw. Yesterday, the UN released a video warning that humanity is at risk of wiping itself out, because of our reliance on burning fossil fuels. And to illustrate how scary that is, the video features a scary leading man: a CGI dinosaur, named Frankie, which clomps into the UN General Assembly hall in New York. At least, it's scary until the dinosaur opens its mouth -- and Jack Black's voice comes out. What he says is sobering, if also surreal. As one person asked on Twitter, "How high am I?" Here's Jack Black, as the voice of Frankie, with our sound of the day.

SOUNDCLIP

[Music: Tense orchestral]

FRANKIE: You OK? You need a minute? Cool. OK. [thundurus steps, a mic hums] Listen up, people. I know a thing or two about extinction. And let me tell you. And you kind of think this would be obvious: going extinct is a bad thing. And driving yourselves extinct! In 70 million years, that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard! At least we had an asteroid. What's your excuse? You're headed for a climate disaster. And yet, every year, governments spend hundreds of billions of public funds on fossil fuel subsidies. Imagine if we had spent hundreds of billions per year subsidising giant meteors? That's what you're doing right now. Think of all the other things you could do with that money. Around the world, people are living in poverty. Don't you think helping them would make more sense than, I don't know, paying for the demise of your entire species?! [frantic clacking on a keyboard of a stressed CNBC journalist] Let me be real for a second. You've got a huge opportunity right now as you rebuild your economies and bounce back from this pandemic. This is humanity's big chance. So here's my wild idea. Don't choose extinction. Save your species before it's too late. It's time for you humans to stop making excuses and start making changes. Thank you.

CH: That was a video made by the United Nations, in which a dinosaur voiced by Jack Black warns about the risks of burning fossil fuels. That was our sound of the day.

[Music: Hip-hop beat]

Part 3: Pope Visit, AB Time Change Referendum

NHL Assault

CH: Last night, Kyle Beach came forward as John Doe in the Chicago Blackhawks sexual assault investigation. The Canadian hockey player says that, 11 years ago, while he was playing with the NHL team, he was sexually assaulted by the team's video coach. He also says that Blackhawks leadership knew about the assault, and chose to do nothing. He says they put winning the Stanley Cup first. His experience is all too familiar for Greg Gilhooly. When he was a young goalie in Winnipeg, he was sexually assaulted by his hockey coach, Graham James. Mr. Gilhooly kept quiet about the assault for years. Today, he spoke about seeing Kyle Beach break his silence -- and who still needs to be held accountable.

SOUNDCLIP

ANDREW NICHOLS: What were you feeling when you saw Kyle Beech give that interview to TSN yesterday, where he identified himself as the victim of this alleged abuse?

GREG GILHOOLY: Well, I mean, how painful was that? And it was making me so sad. And yet, at the same time, it was incredibly chilling. I mean, what he was describing was exactly what I'd gone through a decade ago. And the self-destruction, the questioning, his sexuality, the fear that he was going to be ostracized and not believed. And that's the thing about sexual assault, right? Is you've got the initial action, but you've got all of these mental issues that just eat away at you after the fact. It's effectively the the murder or attempted murder of a soul. And you could see him dealing with that in real-time on national television yesterday. And I just wanted to put my arm around him and tell him, it's, you know, he's going to get through this. It's going to get better.

AN: I mean, one of the most striking moments of the interview, I think a lot of people would say was when when Beach recounted seeing his alleged abuser celebrate with the Stanley Cup after the Blackhawks win in 2010. He said it made him feel like nothing. And it made him feel like he didn't exist.

GG: It's incredibly difficult. And that's... I think that's one of the problems that the Chicago Blackhawks executives have right now. Now, no one knows what the people in the room knew back in the midst of their pursuit of the Stanley Cup. What is indisputable is that team policies weren't followed. And then in the years that followed, and especially this year when the litigation was made public, none of those people said, you know what? We made a mistake. We actually had a meeting about this guy before the Stanley Cup finals. Something clearly happened. We now know that this guy went off and was an abuser. We're going to support the victim. They didn't do that. They lawyered up. You know, Quenneville says that he didn't hear about it until he heard in the middle of the summer from the media. Cheveldayoff, when he was asked about it, he didn't say, You know what? We had a meeting about this. It turns out the guy was an offender. Sorry, let's focus on the victim. These guys are looking out for their own careers and doing whatever they can to try to preserve them. By failing to focus on the victim, these people have actually hurt the victim more. That's why these guys deserve to be punished.

CH: Greg Gilhooly speaking with CBC host Andrew Nichols. They were discussing Canadian hockey player Kyle Beach, who says he was assaulted while playing for the Chicago Blackhawks in 2010.

[Music: Industrial]

Pope Visit

Guest: Cadmus Delorme

CH: Indigenous people have been waiting to hear two simple words from Pope Francis: "I'm sorry." And many are now hoping they'll get that apology in person. The demand has become even more urgent since the discovery of unmarked graves at school sites across the country earlier this year. And yesterday, the Vatican indicated the Pope's "willingness" to visit Canada -- but didn't give a specific date for the trip. Cadmus Delorme is the chief of the Cowessess First Nation in Saskatchewan -- where, last June, 751 unmarked graves were found at a former residential school site. We reached him in Regina.

CO: Chief Delorme, given what your community has been through, are people willing to welcome the Pope to Canada?

CADMUS DELORME: Cowessess First Nation has been through a lot in the last few months, as well as the many years and decades. A part of our healing journey is to address the truth. And Cowessess First Nation is open to the apology and to actions that come with the apology from the Pope.

CO: OK, let's just take that apart a bit because the Pope has indicated he would come to Canada, but he is not saying that he is even going to apologize. So if he did come, and there wasn't an apology, how would that be received?

CD: Carol, that would be a step in the wrong direction. In this country, in the last five months since Kamloops, since Marieval, since others are telling their story of unmarked graves, this entire country is about to reset in a new direction between a better relationship with Indigenous people and Canada. And a part of that is an apology from the Pope on behalf of the Roman Catholic Church's role in residential schools.

CO: But we know that not only… there are two things you said that have to happen. One is that there has to be some... some compensation, some recognition in a more concrete way as to what happened to Indigenous people at the schools run by the Catholic Church. And so we know that already that landmark settlement that was supposed to have been provided by the church has fallen far short. So would he have to commit that they're going to compensate people properly for what happened?

CD: Carol, I kind of sense we get caught up on how to get to the end goal and agree to disagree with the compensations. Now, I just want to highlight what is the end goal of reconciliation? You know, the end goal for myself is I got a five-year-old daughter. She's indigenous. And because of the missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls call for justice. Because of what Indigenous people have to go through on a daily in this country because of what we inherited. My five-year-old daughter has a less chance of succeeding than other five-year-old daughters. We need investment. Intergenerational trauma is real. And it is in our communities. It's in our urban settings. And so, the Roman Catholic Church must invest. Because I only know 20 per cent of my language based on what I learnt in school and the little bit I learned in my community. Because, at one time, my grandparents were whipped, hit and beaten for speaking my language. And the Roman Catholic Church, even though we inherited this today, we must-have investment. Compensation so that my five-year-old daughter one day can be whatever she wants. That's why what is the end goal and how to get there? So when the Pope comes, I'm hopeful he will apologize. We will then start to work on our action plan so that we can get to the end goal in this country together.

CO: You mentioned how this would be a big setback if the Pope came and didn't apologize. And the setback you mean is that in Canada, there has been progress to the understanding you just alluded to. That people have come to know much of what happened in those schools and the shock of what we learnt at Kamloops, at Marieval, at Cowessess is... is changing the conversation in this country. But this is something that you've known. All indigenous people knew these kids didn't come home. How is this... how has it been these past months... how has it been for your community?

CD: Carol, I grew up on Cowessess. I graduated from Cowessess. I left to go to university and came back home to become the chief. And been there since. This is by far, you know, the worst timing when it comes to intergenerational trauma coming out. You know, the pandemic hasn't helped. The unmarked graves have triggered some of my more strongest advisors, residential school survivors, in many ways. And you know, in 2008, when the then-prime minister apologized for the role Canada played, residential school survivors had to open up and tell their story. That was tough. That was triggering. But the unmarked graves is the validation of the pain, the hurt, the frustration, the anger, the decades of treatment. And, you know, just because Indigenous people are Indigenous that there's less opportunity. It has triggered in ways I've never seen. And, you know, the investment needed for mental and emotional support in Indigenous communities with Indigenous people in urban settings is needed more than ever in this country today.

CO: And you're referring... in your community alone, 751 unmarked graves found at the former residential school in June. Do you.... do you want to see the Pope in your community? Do you want to see him at Cowessess First Nation, actually confronting the reality of what you now know is there?

CD: I would consult with survivors. But as of this hour, the conversations that we have had, Cowessess First Nation, the Marieval residential school, was in our community for 98 years. For 75 of those years, it was ran by the Roman Catholic Church. And so, we see it fitting that if the Pope was to come to a place of where the impact was felt, the Cowessess First Nation, you know, we would provide a moment of truth, a moment of conversation and a moment of action moving forward. And that is what Cowessess did with the prime minister, with the premier and with other guests who came to Cowessess is that we identified the truth because we cannot move to reconciliation without first accepting the truth. And then we had some time for the survivors to share. And then, we talked about actions moving forward that we all can do to help strengthen this country.

CO: Chief Delorme, I really appreciate speaking with you today. Thank you.

CD: Thank you, Carol.

CH: Cadmus Delorme is the chief of the Cowessess First Nation. We reached him in Regina. You can find more on this story on our webpage at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Country]

Bird Award Winner

CH: Kathy Martin has spent her life travelling up mountains looking for alpine birds. From Colorado, to British Columbia and even the high Arctic. She is Canada's leading ornithologist, and over the past five decades, she's published hundreds of articles and books about what she's found. This year, that lifetime of work paid off with a big honour -- the William Brewster Memorial Award from the American Ornithological Society. It's one of the top awards in the field. Now, Ms. Martin is back home on Prince Edward Island.

SOUNDCLIP

KATHY MARTIN: I grew up in nature, and when you grow up in a farm, there's always birds and mammals around, so you kind of get used to living in a place with lots of wildlife.

MITCH CORMIER: And what was it about the birds in particular?

KM: Ah, I think the thing that got me onto birds was that you can study them in the daytime, so you can follow them, and you don't have to really capture them in order to just see where they are. So it was their diurnal habit. I think that's what people like a lot about birdwatching is the fact that they're active during the day.

MC: And you've spent your entire life with these birds now.

KM: Mostly, yes, about 50 years of fieldwork. So... and still enjoying it. Now, mostly just writing it up, though, writing up publications.

MC: And I have to talk to you about the Brewster Award, which is one of the more recent ones that... that you've... you've been awarded.

KM: Yes, that's quite an honour. I'm very, very flattered and pleased to receive that. Recognition is one of the top awards that the society gives in North America. And for... for a meritorious body of work in the last decade on birds in the western hemisphere.

MC: When you're at a mountain top Colorado, or you're chasing ptarmigan in western Canada, and you tell people you're from P.E.I., do they go kind it's kind of flat out there, isn't it?

KM: I just tell them the highest point is 500 metres... 500 feet. [both laugh]

MC: And they must wonder?

KM: Right. But, you know, Prince Edward Island has some incredibly beautiful landscapes as well. The dune system. And the forest systems. And so, every place has its benefits. I love... I'm also, I would consider myself bi-coastal... or really tri-coastal. I've worked on... in the north and the west and the east. So that's another part of the fascination for… for ecosystems.

CH: That was P.E.I ornithologist Kathy Martin speaking with Island Morning host Mitch Cormier about a lifetime spent studying birds.

[Music: Folk]

Alta Grad

CH: Jonathan Giroux is overwhelmed with pride. Not only did he recently watch his daughter, Kyra, graduate from high school. But she earned her diploma in their community of Driftpile Cree Nation in Alberta -- where a diploma hasn't been given out in decades. That's because senior grades weren't offered in the community for years. But that changed after COVID-19 hit: students were able to stay closer to home, and learn about their own culture. The graduation ceremony for 17-year-old Kyra Giroux, and another student, happened this weekend. Her dad described what it meant to see it.

SOUNDCLIP

JONATHAN GIROUX: It was an awesome ceremony, so proud of our community and our leadership coming together and supporting the two girls. It's been 20-some years since Driftpile Mihtatakaw Sipiy School has had a graduation ceremony. Actually, the last time that we had one, I was in the graduating class. Yeah, as you know, that was 22 years ago. So that's how long [chuckle] it's been since we got to celebrate graduation ceremony like this here. Our school here has really made a remarkable turnaround. After I graduated, they no longer had high school. We didn't have the... the students to support a high school. And the last two years, we've had a tremendous surge in school attendance again. And, thankfully, my daughter decided to come back here and finish her Grade 12. And the school staff was absolutely amazing. Tedmann is our education director. He was the high school principal here at the time. And he was just unbelievable in pushing them to get it done, and realizing their potential, and keeping hands-on with... with the students and the parents, letting them know what needs to be done. And... and pushing them at their... at their pace. Meanwhile, they're… my daughter, for example, was just burning... she made like 52 credits in one year, which she was in a public school system the years before that, they didn't care. They didn't... they didn't give us a heads up when my daughter was struggling or, you know, she's falling behind. But to have her graduate from here, it just feels good in my heart. [beginning to sob] It's just what it is right there.

CH: That was Driftpile Cree Nation councillor, Jonathan Giroux, talking to the CBC's Jamie Malbeuf about his daughter's high school graduation in the Alberta community.

[Music: Folk]

AB Time Change Referendum

Guest: Michael Antle

CH: This week, the final numbers came in. And Alberta's referendum on daylight-saving time was about as close as you can get. Only 3,000 votes separated the two sides. And in the end, support for the status quo prevailed, with just 50.2% of the vote. That means the province will keep changing its clocks twice a year -- springing forward and falling back as always. Voters rejected a proposal to make daylight-saving time permanent. University of Calgary chrono-biologist Michael Antle says Alberta did the right thing. But only because the right option to fix things wasn't on the ballot at all. We reached Michael Antle in Calgary.

CO: Michael, you have said that Albertans have just dodged a bullet. If they had chosen to go with a permanent daylight-saving time, what damage do you think that would have done?

MICHAEL ANTLE: So that would have caused a big misalignment between our body clock, which follows the day, which would be really delayed. And our social clock, which tells us when to get up and go to work, go to school. And the consequence would have been Albertans would have been getting up an hour earlier in the winter over what we currently do during standard time, forcing us behind the wheel of a car really tired and going to work when we're tired and having tired students at school.

CO: OK, but you're not in favour of the status quo either, are you?

MA: No. In this case, the clock changes was the best of two bad choices. We know that there is harm that comes when we change our clocks. We have an increased rate of car accidents in the spring when that happens and heart attacks and strokes. And so that's not great, either. It would be really good to get rid of the time changes.

CO: What do you think is better if we had neither… [chuckle] neither the changing, constantly the falling back and springing forward, that's the better, then to do what Alberta might have done, which is stay in permanent daylight-saving time. So what's the third option?

MA: Right. So if we were to stay on the more natural standard time, that would align our social schedule, the clocks that we follow for work and school, with the solar time that our body clock follows. And that would give us an earlier dawn that would match what our body wants to do naturally. And give us an earlier sunset that would actually be healthier for us. We'd actually get more sleep at night, and we know that it lowers rates of chronic disease.

CO: And that would be mountain standard time for you, right?

MA: That's right. Yeah.

CO: If the referendum was to say, well, you wanted to stay with the time we've got or go back and forth, why didn't they put the referendum question to stay with mountain standard time? Why wasn't that an option?

MA: Yeah, it would have been a great option to have that. And when I talked to the government about it, they were saying that every other jurisdiction like B.C. and Ontario and then in the States, they've been talking about moving to daylight time. And I think people like this idea of having an extra hour of light in the evening. But the science tells us that actually, we'd be healthier as a society moving to standard time.

CO: Now the whole idea is that we should have more daylight time, does it actually... daylight-saving time, is that actually a misnomer?

MA: It is, yeah. So the day length is not what changes. What changes is our work schedule relative to the day. And in the summer, it's not that big of a problem. In Canada, we have these glorious long summers... summer days where lots of light so the body clock can adjust. But it's in the winter when we get squeezed down with these really short winter days where the misalignment between our work schedule and the solar time would actually cause big problems for us.

CO: We've heard this before about the more car accidents in the spring when the clocks change. And grouchiness. Kids have a hard time with it. But, I mean, it is an adjustment. People fly around all the time. They come back. They have to go through a bit of jet lag, and then a couple of days, you know, you're back to normal. So what's the big deal?

MA: Right. So it's a great point. So the thing is, if you think about it, it's not just losing an hour of sleep. That's what we talk about at Spring Forward. And most people have experience with a bad night's sleep. And like you said, you wake up grumpy the next day. But the following night, when you have a good night's sleep, you're all back to normal. So why is that Spring Forward change so bad? Because the malaise that goes with it lasts for like three weeks for many people. And it's because of the misalignment between our body clock and our work schedule. So we're off by an hour for a few weeks until dawn finally gets early enough to... to realign our body clock with the solar clock. But it takes that three weeks to do.

CO: But nature changes that dawn sunrise all the time, right? I mean, you just pointed it out. We have these really short days. The sun's rising much later in the winter, and it's rising much earlier and setting later in the summer. We adjust to the contraction and expansion of light that night Mother Nature gives us. So why can't we adjust to a clock changing?

MA: So, yeah, we can... we can follow the changing day length quite well. And our body clock does that quite nicely, especially from the equinox through to the summer solstice, we're OK. It's in the... the wintertime when there's very little light available. Our body clock really craves that morning light. It's the morning light that's most important to keep it on time. And that's why it's so critical to make sure that when the Sun is up, we can actually see it, and we're not missing that critical morning light.

CO: But obviously, enough people in Alberta decided that they like that afternoon light that they get with the daylight savings time, right?

MA: Well, almost enough because they came out slightly on the... on the lower side. So it was only 49.8 per cent that voted in favour of the permanent daylight time. So the majority that voted picked the... the keep the clock changes for now.

CO: Now, so the split was almost 50-50, and this debate seems it's not going to end all over the world. So what... do you think this is the end of it for Alberta? Or do you think that there will be some other considerations to come?

MA: They're going to have to come back and think about it, but we've got a little bit of time. B.C. said that they're going to move to permanent daylight time once the western states do this as well, like Oregon and Washington State and California. But in the States, they have to wait for Congress to approve that. So it's not going to happen any time soon. But once B.C. locks the clock, then I think Alberta's going to have to do the same since both of our neighbours don't change their clocks.

CO: So time, and only time, will tell?

MA: [both chuckle] That's right.

CO: All right. Thanks, Michael.

MA: Thank you.

CH: Michael Antle is a chrono-biologist and professor of psychology at the University of Calgary.

[Music: Folk]

Underwater Pumpkin Carving

CH: It's not easy to carve the perfect pumpkin. You have the ideal design in your head -- but executing it without accidentally cutting your hand off turns out to be more challenging than you expect. Now imagine you're underwater. A group of divers in Welland, Ontario don't have to imagine. They carved pumpkins underwater last night. Here's what it sounded like.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: A splash and sloshing]

MATT MANDZIUK: Hi, name is Matt Mandziuk, I'm the owner of Dan’s Dive Shop in St. Catharines, Ontario. We're here in the old Welland Canal, the Welland Scuba Park. Today we are going to be participating in our underwater pumpkin carving contest. We are going to take our pumpkins uncut, which makes them a lot more buoyant, which means they're going to require a little bit more effort to sink them. And then once they get them under water, they have to cut the pumpkins under the water. The guts will float up to the surface. If the seagulls could see the guts come up, the seagulls would be eating them. And then they get to make their beautiful patterns on them. I don't think anybody can really fully comprehend it having not done it before. Because you pick it up, you think, oh, it's heavy and they don't think of the air inside it and the positive buoyancy aspects of it. And, of course, the bigger the pumpkin, the harder it's going to be to sink, too.

HAYDN WATTERS: So you want a tiny pumpkin. Did you tell anyone to bring a tiny pumpkin.

MM: No! That makes it a little less fun for all of use.

DEE COMFORT: I’m Dee Comfort. I'm going to be going underwater and carving a pumpkin. I'm going to take the top off of it and do spiky hair. And then, just like a jovial face, just a happy face with one tooth. And then I'm going to try and shave off a little bit for his nose and then the pupils of his eyes. Hopefully, I have enough weight to get that pumpkin under the water. [laughing] Let’s see if he’s going to sink! Time will tell. Oh, I have a steak knife. And then I also have a pumpkin carving knife, too.

HW: What do we got here?

DC We had enough weight! So that's good. Came back with my steak knife. Didn't lose it. Oh yeah, he's going on the front porch. Definitely. He's got the spiky hair. Oh, he's got a big nose because I just took off the flesh for his nose and he's got, oh, he lost his tooth. He once had a tooth, but now it's gone. The fish fairy will have to find it. I think everybody should try it because it's fun. [laughing] It's fun trying to get it down there and then trying to hold it while you're cutting off the... the lid is the tricky part because a couple of times, he almost went up to the top.

CH: That was Dee Comfort and before that Matt Mandziuk speaking with the CBC's Haydn Watters about an underwater pumpkin-carving contest in Welland, Ontario. Dee Comfort went on to win the best all-around pumpkin.

Back To Top »

Provide Transcript Feedback

CBC would like to acknowledge the support of the Broadcasting Accessibility Fund.

October 28th, 2021 Episode Transcript

More Stories Like This