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The AIH Transcript For October 26, 2021

[hosts]Carol Off, Chris Howden[/hosts]

PETER ARMSTRONG: Hello, I'm Peter Armstrong, sitting in for Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[music: theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

CO: Changing tack. Two decades ago, Steven Guilbeault was arrested for protesting against Canada's contribution to climate change. But he’ll speak to us tonight as the country's new environment minister.

CH: Posts mortem. An Ethiopian human rights researcher says internal Facebook documents confirm what she's known for years: posts on the site are fanning the flames of ethnic violence in her country.

CO: Not without a fight. Sudan's military has thrown out the country's civilian government, but an activist on the ground in Khartoum says people will not give up their democratic rights.

CH: Cooler heads must prevail. One of the authors of a new climate report explains what countries need to do to reduce overall carbon emissions -- and prevent more disastrous warming.

CO: Making pinhead lines. New research shows the poppyseed-sized brain of a fruit fly contains surprising complexity, and our guest says understanding that tiny mind is a giant leap forward.

CH: And... a call from help. A hiker ends up spending a frigid night lost on a Colorado mountain -- after ignoring a series of calls from a suspicious, unknown number that turned out to be the search and rescue team.

CH: As It Happens, the Tuesday edition. Radio that knows even when you pick up and go, you still have to pick up.

[music: theme]

Part 1: Cabinet Shuffle: Guilbeault, Sudan Unrest, Mapping Fruit Fly Brains

Cabinet Shuffle: Guilbeault

Guest: Steven Guilbeault

CH: Today, Justin Trudeau rolled out his new cabinet. The Prime Minister welcomed new faces and announced surprise departures. And while he won't be governing with the majority he'd been hoping for. The PM wasn't scaling back expectations for his new ministerial team.

SOUNDCLIP

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: Canadians are expecting big things to be done by parliament and by this government. Whether it's continuing to step up even more and faster on the fight against climate change. Whether it's moving forward in even more concrete and tangible ways on the path of reconciliation. Or whether it's looking at what it really means to build back better and ensure that as we grow our economy, everyone gets included. These are no small tasks. These are the things that Canadians expect us to do. And with a refreshed and reinvigorated team around me, I'm really excited about what we're going to be able to accomplish for Canadians, and I know that this team is raring to go.

CH: Steven Guilbeault certainly better be ready to go. The new Environment Minister is due to fly to Glasgow to represent Canada at the COP26 climate conference. It's a far cry from 20 years ago when Mr. Guilbeault was a young environmental activist who was arrested after scaling Toronto's CN Tower and unfurling a banner calling Canada a climate killer. We reached Minister Steven Guilbeault in Ottawa.

CO: Minister Guilbeault, is this the job you went into public office in order to have one day?

STEVEN GUILBEAULT: Listen, I won't deny that after working all of my adult life on climate change, it is a real honour and a privilege first to be elected again and to make it to cabinet again, but certainly to be nominated Environment and Climate Change Minister is a... I mean, it is truly wonderful for me. But... but... but beyond my little person, I mean for... for me to be able to serve Canadians on... on this... on such an important file.

CO: All right. But lots of people are looking at you remembering this is... this is the guy who climbed the CN Tower and put a big banner out saying climate killer about Canada. You have campaigned against the oil and gas production for decades. You have been the poster boy in Quebec for... you were called the "Green Jesus of Montreal", I think, at one point. And then here you are, the environment minister in a government that owns a pipeline and invests billions of dollars in the industry that you protested against for decades. How do you reconcile that?

SG: I've... I've always said we needed to do more in the fight against climate change. And in 2019, when I... when I joined the Liberal Party, it was because clearly, this is... this was between 2015 and 2019, the government that has done... that had done the most to fight climate change. Put in place a price on carbon, which is now celebrated internationally by organizations such as the International Monetary Fund, saying that if all G20 countries put in place the same type of carbon pricing system Canada has, we... globally, we would be two-thirds of the way towards meeting our Paris targets. So we have... we have done a lot of things, but there are still lots of things to be done. And I... and I, like many Canadians out there, I've heard people ask from their governments, certainly the federal government, provincial governments from their municipalities, they... they want their leaders to do more in the fight against climate change. That's true of a great number of Canadians. That is certainly true of our youth, who in many cases feel a bit desperate. They want to see action, and they want to see it now. And that's why... that's why I'm here.

CO: And where do you see that that action is actually going to happen? I mean, you've joined a government that bought a pipeline. Your government has made many commitments, but has fallen well short of the goals of those commitments. And depending on whose reports you read it, it's up to $18 billion last year that the federal government invested in the oil and gas industry. So where do you... what do you point to when you want to tell these young Canadians that Canada's doing its part?

SG: Firstly, we haven't missed any of our targets. The target that we have is for 2030. And two new reports came out by independent organization in the last two weeks, saying that between the measures and the laws and regulations we've already adopted, plus what... what was announced in our campaign platform, Canada is well on its way to meet its target in terms of reducing greenhouse gas pollution. Second, we are investing. We are... we are an oil-producing nation. There's, you know, there's no way of denying it. What we need to do is..., and we've committed to phasing out investment in fossil fuels. And we've committed to do that two years sooner than our G20 partners. So the G20 agreed to do that by 2025. We've now agreed to do that by 2023. And, in fact, over the last two years, fossil fuel subsidies in Canada have gone down by $3 billion a year. So, again, it's not perfect. There's more that needs to be done, which is why we've committed to do more during the last election, and that will be my job to implement those… those new campaign promises that we made during... during the election.

CO: Are you committed to seeing the end of fossil fuel production in Canada?

SG: We... we have a target to... to be carbon neutral by 2050. So what this means... and this is why during... during the election, we... so the federal government doesn't control production of natural resources. We... we've... we've committed to putting a cap, a ceiling, on... on the emission from the oil and gas sector. And why specifically that sector? Because that sector, although represents about two per cent of our economy, represents about 25 per cent of our greenhouse gas emissions. So we recognize that there is something specific that needs to be done. And frankly, major oil companies agree with us. Most of them have already committed to being net-zero by... by 2050. And if you look at some of the changes that are happening in Canada, it's very interesting. Of all renewable energy production, where do we find the most development in renewable energy production in Canada? Is it Quebec? It's not Quebec. Is it Ontario? It's not Ontario, it's not B.C. Guess what? It's Alberta. So those transformations are already starting to happen all across the country, not just out east or on the West Coast, but throughout the country. And our role as a government is to work with municipalities, with communities, with provincial government and with companies to see how we can accelerate those transformations.

CO: And just correct me if I'm wrong on this, but that net-zero by 2050 commitment from the oil and gas sector. This is not... this is about the emissions from the production of fossil fuels. It's not about a commitment to reduce the output of oil and gas, right?

SG: That is correct. It's about... it's about the pollution. It's not about the production of those natural resources.

CO: And so those resources can continue at the same rate to be produced if they can use yet unproven technologies and planting trees in order to offset that. And by 2050, they can continue to produce what they're doing in this country, right?

SG: Well, I think there is a global recognition that we will consume less and less fossil fuels going forward. As our buildings become more efficient and use more and more renewable energy, as we're moving towards a more electrical transportation system, as investments are moving away from fossil fuels into clean technologies, into renewable energies. We... we will be needing less fossil fuels going forward, and this transformation has already started to happen.

CO: Minister Guilbeault, I appreciate speaking with you and good luck with your new job. We'll be watching. Thank you.

SG: Thank you very much.

CH: Steven Guilbeault is Canada's new Minister of Environment and Climate Change. We reached him in Ottawa.

[Music: Jazz]

Sudan Unrest

Guest: Ahmed

CH: A lot of people put their lives on the line during protests in 2019 to put Sudan on the path to democracy. Now they're watching an attempt to take that hard-fought victory away. Sudan's military says it staged a coup to ensure the country's stability. Today, Lieutenant General Abdel Fattah al-Burhan also said that the country's prime minister was detained for his own safety. People in Khartoum and elsewhere reacted by protesting and calling for civil disobedience. There are reports that security forces in the capital fired on demonstrators, killing several people. Many schools and shops remain shuttered today. Ahmed is one of the protesters in Khartoum. We are not using his last name because he fears for his safety.

CO: Ahmed, what is the scene on the streets right now in Khartoum in relation to the protests?

AHMED: Millions of Sudanese went out to the streets, refusing the military coup that have been done by the criminals, General Burhan and his vice, Mohammed Hamdan Dagalo, the leader of the Janjaweed militias that have all of the massacres in Darfur. Nobody in Khartoum or around Sudan is accepting this kind of behaviour.

CO: Well, we'll just clarify that when you mention that the general who is in charge of the Janjaweed, this is... these are the militias that massacred people in Darfur. Canadians will remember that. So how are... we know that the military shot protesters who are on the streets yesterday. They were shot. And so, how are the authorities responding to all of you who are out in the streets today?

A: Today still, the shooting is still going on. This moment I'm speaking to you, there are mass shooting going down the streets of Khartoum and other cities of Sudan. They've murdered lots of innocent, unarmed civilians. In less than 24 hours, just in Khartoum, the numbers that we manage only because of the loss of connectivity and everything here, six has been... have been shot with live ammunition straight to the head. We have more than 160 injuries in Khartoum around the hospitals. And they closed down the blood bank -- the central blood bank -- last night closed by the military. Actually, the thing happening in Khartoum is you can describe it in only as crimes against humanity.

CO: At the same time, this is the first time we have seen these kinds of demonstrations in the streets of Sudan in Khartoum since 2019, when protesters successfully were able to get change, to get rid of... of President al-Bashir, to get a civilian government in place, to begin the road to democracy. So this... since this coup, people have returned to the streets again. And what do you hope you can do? Do you think you can stop this coup?

A: We will never accept another military government. We want our civilian-led government back. This is our only hope for a better Sudan. Sudan has been ruled by the military since our independence, so there is no way back. They've tried to kill us back in the days in the massacre next to their buildings back in the 3rd of June of 2019, and we responded. All of the streets were full of people refusing that act. We want the civil-led government.

CO: And Sudan was on the road toward that civil government and that democracy that you are talking about until this coup on the early hours of Monday. Do you know where the prime minister is? He has been removed from power by the generals. Where is the prime minister?

A: Actually, he's been kidnapped. And today, earlier, we were surprised by the criminal Burhan in a press conference saying that he have the Prime Minister, Mr. Hamdok, at his house, at Burhan's house. And in either cases, he's detained against his will. This is another crime to be added to the list of the crimes that have been committed by General Burhan.

CO: And when you mention General Burhan, this is Lieutenant General Abdel Fattah al-Burhan, who is the leader of this coup. And so does he have the complete support of the military? Or are there cracks within the military itself in Sudan?

A: We're not sure about this. We're hoping the low-ranked to have actions against those criminals.

CO: the people who are leading the coup, General Burhan, he says that he will restore civilian rule. He'll have elections in 2023. What do you say to that?

A: This is a lie. This is one more lie of his lies. He lied to the civilian government. He lied to us. He lied to the people.

CO: And so I understand that in addition to protesting in the streets, there has been a general strike, that people in all walks of life have stopped working. They've closed their shops. They... doctors are not working in military hospitals. Everything is just work-to-rule at this point. Is that the case?

A: Yes, we announced civil disobedience. We will not work under these coup leaders. That's the case.

CO: It's been 30 years that your country has been struggling back to democracy. You've had military rule for so much of that. There was hope in 2019 that... that you might be able to finally have a civilian government. Do you think that these coup leaders, do you think General Bourhan, will be successful in his coup?

A: No, the people will make sure that the scoop will not succeed. Sudan has suffered enough from this kind of irresponsible behaviours. The whole world knows what happened during the previous dictatorship of Omar al-Bashir. The crimes that have been committed to the people of Sudan. We lost millions of lives because of the irresponsibility of the army leaders. So there is no other option than the democracy and a government… a government to be chosen by the people themselves.

CO: Ahmad, we will leave it there. It's good to get you on this line since I know that all the local phone lines, the internet, the mobile service has all… is all down in Sudan. So glad we could have this satellite phone connection with you today, and please stay safe.

A: Thank you.

CO: Goodnight.

A: Bye.

CH: We reached Ahmed, a pro-democracy activist in Khartoum. We're withholding his last name for his safety.

[Music: Indie rock]

Mapping Fruit Fly Brains

Guest: Vivek Jayaraman

CH: When you shoo a fruit fly away from your blackening bananas, do you ever spare a thought for what's going on inside its head? Because what is swimming through the poppy-seed-sized brain of a fruit fly could fill a book. Or a 360-page scientific report anyway. That's exactly what dropped today on eLife -- the deepest dive ever into the neural network of these tiny insects. It's the product of years of data-crunching, and it gives us the most complete map of a fruit fly's brain to date. We reached lead scientist Vivek Jayaraman in Ashburn, Virginia.

CO: Vivek, many people listen to this programme in their kitchens, and they may at this point even be looking at a fruit fly around their bananas. So, just how busy is that fly's brain? Can you tell them?

VIVEK JAYARAMAN: Yeah, I mean, it's one of those things that people maybe don't realize when they're trying to swat a fly. But firstly, the way that fly even found its way to that banana is kind of interesting because it could be kind of doing its thing outside and then it catches a whiff of something and then has to make its way, you know, through whatever little opening, there is all the way to that kitchen and the particular pile of trash or whatever that the banana is sitting in. But even after that, let's say that the fly is sitting on that banana, it's eaten its fill, and it's kind of moving around now. It's not hungry anymore, but its brain is still active. Let's say the lights go off; its brain is still active. The fly doesn't lose track of where it is in its surroundings. It still has mental processes enough to tell it where it is. So there's a lot going on in that little brain.

CO: [chuckle] OK. And it's a really little brain, isn't it? The size of a poppy seed.

VJ: Correct.

CO: And you have determined there are about 100,000 neurons and millions of connections going on within that little poppy seed?

VJ: Yes, there are. And, I mean, that's work done by many people. But yes, I mean, we've... we've looked at just one tiny piece of that poppy seed. Just the part that, among other things, controls how the fly navigates. And so it's capable of more flexible navigation than you might think. So, you know, if the odour smell isn't there, it can use something else to get by. And so, the flexibility and navigation is something that we're curious about, and that's something that circuits that we study specialize in.

CO: And so you've actually been able to figure out why and how a fruit fly decides that this banana isn't going anywhere. And so let's... let's look for some tomatoes there on the other counter, right?

VJ: Something like that. Yeah, I mean, so essentially this... this flexibility in picking a different set of behaviours to go after depending on the context is something that we think we have a better understanding of now at a mechanistic level, at the understanding... an understanding at the level of a wiring diagram. So just knowing exactly which neurons talk to which other neurons that carry different kinds of information gives you insights into just how that process even works in the brain.

CO: So you and the others who studied these fruit fly brains, you actually had to slice it, slice it into tiny little slices and look at each little slice, right?

VJ: Yes. Luckily, I had these fabulous collaborators, physicist Harold Hess and Sean Xu, who got up this thing into slabs and then did something called focussed ion beam scanning electron microscopy. I know that's a mouthful, but essentially they were able to image these really tiny pieces of brain tissue and simultaneously or right after slice it, look at the next layer and so on down the line of this tiny poppy seed. But it's actually harder than you might think to do this flawlessly for four hours.

CO: [laughing] Yes.

VJ: And so that's... that's kind of what they did.

CO: No, you don't have to convince me this would be hard to do. And so... and so we have just a little tiny, tiny knife? And it's like... what if the knife slips and you don't cut the slice of the poppy seed, right?

VJ: Well, yeah, there's that. And then once you're doing this electron microscopy thing, you're bombarding this thing with electrons. And, again, you know, you can introduce all kinds of errors and suddenly you see things you shouldn't see. So keeping it just right was, I think, I don't know, an amazing challenge. And then there's a whole challenge of you have a set of images, and now you want to piece together what all the connections look like from that. So from tons of slices, how do you picture which neurones are there? How do they go from one slice to the next to the next all the way up, and the processes are tiny. We're talking tens of nanometres. So it's extremely difficult to keep it all in register. And so that requires computational work. And so this is the effort of a lot of people.

CO: So this report that you... a lot of people worked on -- this 350 pages of it's not a study, it's a book, right? [both chuckle] So you are looking at this tiny little brain, all of you poring over it. So what do we know now that we didn't know before?

VJ: Several things. So, for example, this compass. There's a little compass in the fly brain that tells it which direction it's pointed. We can sort of track where things go, where information travels from that compass downstream to centres where we think flies compute other things like where they want to go next and how they get there. And so you can actually see the wiring diagram for all that as well. And so there's lots to test with further experiments. I mean, these are just wiring diagrams at the end of the day, which tell you how it might be done. But you know, that's going to be the work of many labs testing it. But just having a blueprint for how it might be carried out is, you know, it's... yeah, it's pretty cool to have that sort of industrial espionage.

CO: How does this conversation go at dinner parties, I'm wondering? [both laughing] And when you tell people that you study this?

VJ: Well, I mean, look, all I do at dinner parties, if someone asks me about this work, I... I ask them to shut their eyes and then, you know, with their forks, like, let's say, put whatever morsel of food they have on their fork into their mouths, and they do it effortlessly. And then I ask them how they did that? And they clearly use some kind of internal model to do that. They knew where the hands would be. They knew where their mouth was. They could connect the dots and, you know, the right muscles would move, and you do it without seeing anything, right? And so... and usually without poking yourself in the eye [CO chuckles] if you're anywhere near coordinated. And so, how do you do that? That's the kind of process that a fruit fly brain needs as well. I mean, maybe not with the forks involved, but otherwise, just having the ability to kind of navigate without necessarily getting direct cues of where you are and where your pointed, flies do that. And so understanding how you use internal models of that sort of the environment of your relationship to it to achieve fairly sophisticated goals is a pretty... pretty, you know, it's an easy conversation.

CO: And do people get a new appreciation of fruit flies by the end of the dinner party?

VJ: Yeah, insects more broadly. But yes, fruit flies as well, I hope. I mean, they better.

CO: OK. So again, going back to our listener in the kitchen right now who had just considered killing that fruit fly. Are they having... are they having doubts? Are they having second thoughts, do you think?

VJ: Well, at the end of the day, I mean, if an insect seems like a pest because it's competing with you for food, I understand why you may feel, you know, the need to do what you do. But that said, I hope you at least do it with greater appreciation for the creature, the marvel that is that fly.

CO: Wonderful. It's great to talk to you, Vivek. Thank you.

VJ: It's been a pleasure.

CO: Bye-bye.

VJ: Bye-bye.

CH: Vivek Jayaraman is a neuroscientist at the Janelia Research Centre at the Howard Hughes Medical Institute. He's in Ashburn, Virginia.

[Music: Surf rock]

Hiker Misses Rescue Call

[Sound: A chilling wind]

CH: This is a bit embarrassing. I'm a little turned around here. I just… I just left the studio to get some water, and got lost trying to get back. Now, I'm… now, I’m somewhere windy, as you can hear. I just hope that somehow, someone will contact me and --

[Sound: iPhone ringtone]

CH: Uh, "unknown caller", [scoff] I don't think so. I do not need my ducts cleaned, thanks. Actually, my current terrifying predicament is very similar to one experienced by a hiker who was exploring Mount Elbert in Colorado last week. When this unnamed person failed to return as planned, people started panicking. They called a local search-and-rescue team, who immediately started to --

[Sound: iPhone ringtone]

CH: Not now, "unknown caller", I'm talking. OK, as... as I was saying, the team immediately started calling the missing hiker. No answer. Over and over the rescue team called. No one picked up. So the search began. But they turned up no one. Things seemed bleak. Until a full 24 hours after the hiker had set off, when the team was informed that the unnamed person had safely returned to their vehicle. Turned out the hiker had become disoriented, and then struggled to find their way back. But despite their desperate need for help, they had failed to answer any of the search-and-rescue team's phone calls -- because they were coming from an unknown number. In other words, the unnamed hiker had been totally lost, and scared they'd never find civilization again. But had ignored the device that could have led them to safety because they were afraid of getting scammed.

[Sound: iPhone ringtone]

CH: You know what? I better get this.

[Music: Hip-hop beat]

Part 2: Facebook Ethiopia Violence, UN Emissions Report

Facebook Ethiopia Violence

Guest: Berhan Taye

CH: In the brutal conflict in Ethiopia, Facebook is being used to make enemies, not friends. As the fighting raged in the northern Tigray region, posts on the platform were inciting hate, violence, and human rights abuses. And leaked documents show that the social network knew there was a problem -- but, critics say, didn't do enough to stop it. Berhan Taye is an Ethiopian technology and human rights researcher who has been pushing Facebook for years to remove content that ha incited violence in the country. We reached her in Nairobi, Kenya.

CO: Berhan, what did you think when you saw how much Facebook knew internally about the posts that were inciting violence in Ethiopia?

BERHAN TAYE: It was mixed feelings. You know, I was glad that they were seeing what we were seeing, but also was a bit sad because, you know, in some of our conversations with them, they made it seem as though we were crazy. That, you know, we were... you know, these things were just visible to us. So it was really mixed feelings for me.

CO: We know that Facebook knew, and we know only because of a whistleblower who revealed that they knew. So are you saying that while they knew, they were denying to you that the posts on Facebook were inciting this violence?

BT: So whenever we're on calls, civil society or activists or researchers on Ethiopia or other things, you know, they never really... like employees that work, you know, within Facebook and the human rights team, they never come out to you and admit, oh yeah, we see so much violence, but there's nothing that we can do about it, right? Like that's admitting their culpability and liability there. So they never do that. But they just listen, listen and nod and nod. And then they say, OK, so you know, they don't... they... they never tell you that the system that you're reporting to doesn't work. They just, you know, sort of try to figure out what is the solution that can make you happy, but you know, you won't continue to bother them.

CO: Can you actually give us examples of when you saw that there were posts on Facebook that led to militia violence or violence inside Ethiopia?

BT: So I would really want to be very careful about... so linking, you know, online organized violence or the calls for violence to actual violence on the ground because we need a lot of research to sort of really understand, you know, which came first. But what is very clear is that we... now, if we start from Facebook-owned research and, you know, the document that was leaked a few weeks back, the Fano militia, you know, it's affiliated with a certain ethnic group has been... you know, has been using Facebook to organize for violence, to arm militias, you know, and they've been accused of many egregious crimes in the Tigray conflict, for instance. If you look at, you know, some other groups that are organizing out of Egypt and other places, they've been directly linked with political figures in the country not necessarily affiliated with government, but opposition figures that are currently in prison and that there are calling for violence. That are calling for, you know, the assassination of government employees. But then, of course, from our own research and from the work that I've been doing for the past few years, we see so much content like so it can go from someone live streaming on Facebook. And you know this... these accounts, you know, no one in Ethiopia has the time or the money or the data bandwidth to stream for like three hours. So most of these accounts are diaspora accounts. There'll be a bit of music, a bit of contested history, and then there will be like, you know, 30 minutes of, you know, telling people how to kill. There's one particular video I'll never forget where a lady sitting out of London is explaining, you know, she's like, forget... forget the old men. Don't even go killing the old man. You should kill the kids of a certain ethnic group. So there's… so it's very many content that's like this. There are some that, you know, would teach people how to make Molotov cocktails. There are some that you know where the platform is being used for, you know, by certain armed groups where they would even post directions of how you can join their... their armed struggle. So it really is an open space for any and every very, very concerning ideas that one can have.

CO: In Ethiopia, I know there are dozens of languages. And so, how can Facebook keep track of all that is being exchanged, all of these things, if they're not in languages that they have?

BT: What we know for sure, and now that we have confirmation from this... from this document that has been leaked, is that what they call their A.I. or proactive technology is not working. And we know even in English, it can't, you know, it can't even differentiate between many basic things. So to assume that, you know, Facebook can rely on its technology to... to decrease the amount of hate speech and violence-inciting content is... is really a joke and is a myth for us. So that doesn't work. So what they need to do, though, is hire content moderators, actual individuals, human beings that know the context, that speak the language, that, you know, have preferably a bit of understanding about human rights, you know, freedom of expression. And then, you know, once content is being reported to them, they should be the one sort of deciding whether content should be taken down or not.

CO: But Facebook says that it's... Ethiopia is not its only country that is monitoring. It says they have tens of thousands of people working, reviewing and removing offensive content worldwide. What do you make of that response?

BT: [chuckle] That response is inadequate and is very problematic. We need to know how many content moderators per language. Because we know the majority of those content moderators are only for English speaking. And what we need to know is that, you know, more than 78 per cent of Facebook users are not in Europe, in Western Europe, or not in America and Canada. So they need to invest in language and content that, you know, the users of Facebook are using.

CO: I wonder if it's... the question is is that whether Facebook should be self-monitoring? And given that we saw in Rwanda of the genocide, that those who are on the radio airwaves and the media inciting violence and genocide, those people went before the international tribunal. They were convicted of crimes against humanity. Do you think at some point, it's some other organization outside of Facebook that should be investigating the effect that these posts are having?

BTO: yes, just because Facebook is a technology company, for me, doesn't mean much. We've seen over and over again in Myanmar and then now in Ethiopia, we're reliving, you know, the misery this... this platform is causing, right? So, like it should be investigated, and they should be held accountable. And what we've seen now is that they're not... they know actually that their platform is causing harm, and they're not doing much because they'd rather make money out of… you know, out of the system rather than sort out the problems it has. So they should be held accountable. But, unfortunately, I don't think the U.S. is in any way ready to do that, and the EU is not regulating even on data protection properly, let alone on issues that are poor people and Black people around the world. So we need to organize very differently around this topic to make sure that they're held liable for all of the terrible things that they're doing across the world. You know, in a few years, in the next 10 years, the next billion users are going to be, you know, people that are not in the northern hemisphere. And then, you know, we're going to be the source of money for them, right? So, like, we see them investing on submarine cables. We see them investing on satellites. We see them investing on connectivity across the continent and in other places as well. So they know that the next… in the next few years, we are the place where they're going to be making their money.

CO: Berhan, it's fascinating and troubling. I appreciate you explaining all this to us. Thank you.

BT: You're welcome. Have a good one.

CO: You too.

CH: Berhan Taye is an Ethiopian technology and human rights researcher. We reached her in Nairobi, Kenya.

[Music: Horns!!!]

UN Emissions Report

Guest: Taryn Fransen

CH: We've heard it before -- but today's report puts the numbers in stark focus. Our climate is changing. And without action, it's going to get worse and warmer. That's according to a new report released today, which includes projections on just how much warmer things could get. It's the latest annual Emissions Gap Report from the United Nations Environment Programme -- issued in advance of the UN Climate Change conference being held next week in Glasgow. Today's emissions report was compiled by 57 scientists across 25 countries. And it calls on governments to act immediately, as in within the next decade, to limit global warming. Taryn Fransen is one of the report's co-authors and a Senior Fellow at the World Resources Institute. We reached her in Oakland, California.

CO: Taryn, this report does contain a little bit of good news about what's possible. Can you give that to us first just so we can hang on?

TARYN FRANSEN: Sure! Well, to start with the good news, if countries that have set targets to reduce emissions to net-zero by mid-century succeed in reaching those targets, we have a likely chance of holding warming to 2.2 degrees Celsius. To clarify, net-zero means driving emissions down as far as possible and then making sure any emissions that remain are removed from the atmosphere by trees or by new technologies. So 2.2 degrees is not 1.5 degrees, but it's a lot better than the four degrees or more that we were on track for before the Paris Agreement was adopted. And even the three to 3.5 degrees that we were on track for a year ago today.

CO: Yikes! And that's the good news. I mean, 2.2 is still, as you point out, that is not what we were supposed to be getting to. It's more like 1.5 to avoid disaster. 2.2. It's still a big deal, isn't it? So even at 2.2, what are the effects that we're going to see inevitably with climate change?

TF: Well, we're already seeing effects today. We're seeing here in California wildfires, record wildfires like we've never seen before. Storm surges, hurricanes in other parts of North America. And that's just to name a few. So we're not getting off scot-free at 2.2 degrees by any means, but every fraction of a degree does matter. And I will take 2.2 over three or four.

CO: And even what you've described to get to 2.2, it means a very, very serious commitment, right? So how much of a commitment are we seeing among the country... the big polluters, especially?

TF: Well, a lot of the big polluters have now set these net-zero targets. A lot of the G20 countries have done so, and that will take a lot to get to net-zero by mid-century, and we need to get started today. But the problem is, and some of the bad news that comes out of this report is that countries' targets for 2030, which are the more near-term targets that they set under the Paris Agreement, aren't yet setting us on a path that we can reasonably expect to meet those mid-century net-zero targets. So some of what we're seeing as countries delaying action until after 2030. And we know that's not going to get us there.

CO: What countries are doing the best as far as you can see?

TF: Well, we're seeing a lot of progress from a lot of different countries, thankfully. The U.K. has set one of the most ambitious greenhouse gas reduction targets at a 68 per cent reduction. And that's relative to 1990 levels. And we also have seen improvements from a lot of the other G20 countries, including Canada and the United States. They're not yet where they need to be, but there are new targets are much better than their old targets. It's not just developed countries, either. There are a lot of major emerging economies that are making significant improvements on their targets, Argentina, Colombia, Chile, South Africa and others. Small island states and small developing countries are showing a lot of leadership, but of course, they're responsible for a very small share of global emissions.

CO: OK. And we've just spoken to Canada's incoming minister of the Environment and Climate Change. In Canada, yes, the... the commitments are there, but what we're seeing is… and Canada's not alone in this is that the commitment is one thing. Actually meeting those goals is quite another. So how would you rate Canada's record on meeting the goals that it set out for itself or being on target to meet those goals?

TF: Unfortunately, not very well or not very highly. Canada is not yet on track to even achieve its previous, less ambitious target. It's also not alone, unfortunately, in not being on track to meet its new target. That's a problem we have at the moment here in the United States as well. But I think it's important that countries understand where they need to head and that they actually set targets that are ambitious and that are in line with the problem that we're facing. And then, of course, they need to follow up and deliver on them.

CO: The big pushback that you'll hear in Canada about trying to bring these emissions down, first of all, because there's a big percentage of the GDP that's in the business of extracting oil and gas. But the claim that we are not a big polluter in the long run. It's only… it's less than two per cent of the world's emissions produced by count, even though we're very high per capita emitters. And so, if... if the big polluters like China's burning coal or the U.S. can't reduce its CO2, they say, what does it matter? We're not... we're not a big player in this emissions game. What do you say to that?

TF: Well, here's the deal. Very few countries are actually more than two per cent of global emissions. If every country that accounted for two per cent or less of emissions decided to do nothing, we would not solve this problem because that would be the majority of the world's countries sitting on the sidelines and doing nothing. So this is a situation where every country does need to act. Canada is responsible for a significant cumulative emissions as a developed country. Canada does have high per capita emissions. And Canada is a wealthy country. Canada can afford to make this transition, and it has to do so. It's also a fallacy to say that other major economies are not acting. China is investing hugely in renewable energy. They have the most renewable energy capacity in the world. They are moving strongly on this, and they are moving on coal as well. They've recently announced they will no longer be financing coal abroad. So it's not the case that other countries and that major emitters are not acting, but it is the case that everybody needs to step up and do more. And that includes Canada.

CO: OK, so we're heading to Glasgow on the weekend. And so, what do you need to hear? What do you want to hear that would actually make you think there's a chance that we can keep these emissions in line to at least... not the worst-case scenario?

TF: I think we are likely to see more commitments in the lead up to COP and at COP itself in Glasgow. China has said, for example, that they will submit their Paris Agreement commitment. There may be other countries that do so as well. And if we're lucky, that will help change this picture a little bit and help close the gap. But it is clear that... that COP26 itself is going to end with a significant gap still in place. And the question for me is whether leaders in Glasgow actually face that head-on and put in place measures that... that will facilitate closing that gap. So we'd like to see leaders at COP26 decide that there will be some kind of milestone soon where countries will need to come back to the table and make new commitments. Under the Paris Agreement right now, they wouldn't have to do so until 2025, and that's too late. We need an earlier moment, say in 2023 or even sooner, especially for those countries that haven't yet stepped up their commitments relative to the last round. They need to do that sooner rather than later.

CO: Taryn, thank you very much. We will, of course, be watching and have many more conversations about this, but I thank you for joining us today.

TF: Thank you.

CH: Taryn Fransen is one of the co-authors of the Emissions Gap Report report and a Senior Fellow at the World Resources Institute. We reached her in Oakland, California.

[Music: Ambient]

Lemurs Singing

CH: When you hear this sound.

[Sound: This sounds like a very sad call]

CH: You probably think of this sound.

[Sound Emergency siren]

CH: Or this sound.

[Sound: A crying baby]

CH: That first sound probably does not make you think of this sound.

[Music: “We Will Rock You” by Queen/classic rock]

CH: But there is a connection. And according to a new study, the connection is this.

[Sound: Just the stomping and clapping from “We Will Rock You” by Queen/classic rock]

CH: The study says that endangered Indri Indri lemurs -- who live only in Madagascar, and who made that first sound, which -- again -- is this…

[Sound: That not happy cry again, but not a baby crying]

CH: Have an innate sense of rhythm when they sing. Over 12 years, scientists recorded hundreds of indri songs. Then they analyzed the songs -- specifically, the intervals between the notes. And they found two kinds of rhythm: one-to-one, in which the spaces between the notes were the same length; and one-to-two, in which the second space between notes was twice the length of the first space. And according to the study's lead author, Chiara De Gregorio of the University of Turin, quote: "The two rhythmic categories we found [for the Indri indri], are exactly the same of the intro of 'We Will Rock You,' by the famous band Queen."

[Sound: A horrible whooping call from the monkeys and “We Will Rock You” by Queen/classic rock]

CH: Well... sort of. Anyway: up until now, we thought humans were the only species who understood and use what are called "categorical rhythms". Now we know these lemurs can too. Which may suggest that rhythm originated in our primate ancestors. The scientists hope their work will draw attention to the plight of the indri. And that, with extra protections, the species will carry on -- without missing a beat.

[Music: Bright piano]

Part 3: Creepiest Doll

Prince George Homeless Camp

CH: On an empty industrial lot in downtown Prince George, there's a large homeless encampment. For weeks, the city has been wanting to remove it. But on Friday, a B.C. Supreme Court judge ruled that the camp is allowed to stand -- because there are currently not enough spaces at shelters or affordable housing options in the city. Melanie Begalka and Darlene Kavka are lawyers with the First Nations Justice Council, who represented the people living at the camp. They spoke with the CBC about the ruling and what it could mean for other cities across the country. The first voice you'll hear is Ms. Begalka's.

SOUNDCLIP

MELANIE BEGALKA: We were happy to see that the court recognized that when people have nowhere to go when it's freezing, they have to be able to shelter somewhere. So we were... we were happy to see that.

CAROLINA DE RYK: Why else do you think the judge decided that this camp should be allowed to stay?

MB: I think the lack of alternatives, the lack of suitable housing, is... is the main point. The judge also recognized that there really is no evidence that there's an increased fire risk in this camp that wouldn't exist anywhere else in the city. There was no evidence of an increased crime. These residents really feel safer there. They're safer when they're together. They look out for each other. They've built community, and they support each other there. So in... in the absence of any good options, this is the best option for them.

CDR: Darlene, I want to bring you into the conversation. Winter is coming. We're starting to hit those below zero temperatures. Why do you think staying in a tent in a city loft is the best place for people to be?

DARLENE KAVKA: I'm so glad you asked that question because that's exactly what we don't believe. What we believe is that housing is what these people need. But in the absence of housing, how could it possibly help the vulnerable population we represent to displace them and to have them without their... without even the protection of their tents? It made no sense. The... the myth here is that there are options available. And that the people that we see on the streets actually can avail themselves of those options. And that was clearly demonstrated to be false. It's a complex situation resulting from trauma, disruption of family systems. You know, the reasons that people become homeless are complex, and the results of them are also complex. A lot of people could not qualify to get into, for example, some of the shelters. People could not qualify for some of the housing that is notionally available but practically is not available to our population that are living really in the most desperate of circumstances here.

CDR: Melanie, there are lots of communities across the north there, and in fact Canada, who are dealing with similar issues to what is happening in Prince George. What message do you think this ruling sends?

MB: I think it sends a message to municipalities that displacing people does not solve these problems. We really want to see the housing crisis addressed. We want to see options for people. We want to see investment in affordable, safe housing. And... and going to the courts to get an order to make them move doesn't fix any of these problems. It needs to be a community-based effort to get people the supports and the housing that they need.

CH: First Nations Justice Council lawyers Melanie Begalka and Darlene Kavka speaking with Daybreak North host Carolina de Ryk this morning -- about the B.C. Supreme Court's ruling to prevent the city of Prince George from tearing down a homeless encampment.

[Music: Sad piano]

Creepiest Doll

Guest: Wayne Gannaway

CH: They were once much-loved by the children who cared for them. Now, they bring nightmares to whoever is unlucky enough to see them at night. A Minnesota history museum that, in my opinion, has far too many creepy dolls, has just crowned one doll the creepiest. It's a part of an annual tradition at the History Center of Olmsted County. And competition is fierce. Wayne Gannaway is the executive director of the History Center of Olmsted County. We reached him in Rochester, Minnesota.

CO: Wayne, on a scale of one to 10, just how creepy is this year's winner?

WAYNE GANNAWAY: This year's winner is an 11.

CO: [both chuckle] OK, but you only had nine dolls. If you'd had 11, she'd still win?

WG: That's right. That's right. This... this doll is that creepy because, at first glance, it's lovable and innocuous. But if you look at it in the particular light, it has a menacing side glance.

CO: [chuckling] OK, maybe describe... this Gagool we're talking about, right?

WG: Yeah, that's right, Gagool, is... was the victorious doll. And this particular doll actually has a pretty well-known background. In other words, we have a pretty good written history on Gagool.

CO: Uh-huh. Well, first of all, just describe what the doll looks like?

WG: Well, it's like a plush doll. It's fabric. The entire thing is fabric. So unlike other dolls that have a porcelain face, this one has a fabric face. It's... it's like a little baby in a onesie and a hood. And the face has the eyes and the little pug-nose and the little, like, pursed lips for a mouth. They're all kind of drawn on there. And so... so it's pretty much all fabric. It's a little bit discoloured, and it's got a little tear in its right shoulder, but it's... it's one that you could definitely see in its better days snuggling up with.

CO: OK, maybe you have to be in the room with Gagool to really appreciate how creepy it is. Because in the photo I'm looking at, she looks kind of sweet. She looks kind of cuddly.

WG: Yeah. And... and I think that's where Gagool kind of snuck up and... and won people over. Because when I look at it, and particularly if you see it in-person, there's sort of... it's like throwing you shade. It's either... it's either ready to give you a nice snuggly hug, or it's ready to, like, pull the... the ladder out from under you and as you go toppling down the stairs. [CO chuckles] I mean, this is... this is what we're looking at here.

CO: OK now... but she has a story, right? All the dolls every year in this competition, they all have a background. What's her history?

WG: Yeah, that's... yeah, you're right. Every doll is an artefact of someone's life. And that's really the... the important lesson here we want people to understand. And so, of course, especially dolls, and I think this is what makes them a little unnerving after years go by. But dolls were someone's loving toy, you know, some of the most special moments for a child. And this one actually is from, of course, here in Olmsted County, in the township of Viola. And it was owned by Marylyn, who was born in 1928. And she lived in Viola Township here in Olmsted County. Before Gagool came to the History Center in 1976, she was actually living out her days in the attic of the farmhouse. So she was a farm doll. When Marilyn was cleaning out her house, she was elderly by this time, Gagool and probably other artifacts came to the history center.

CO: I wonder what she would think of her doll, her little cuddly thing, being the creepiest doll of the year?

WG: That is a really interesting question because, you know, either they may think it's horrific and how could future generations view it this way? Or maybe, wow, my doll is finally getting worldwide attention. [both chuckle]

CO: You have names for all these dolls in the competition, whether you know the... the original name or not, you have like Lizzie Borden and Ms. Abyss. How did this one get Gagool? Where did that name come from?

WG: You know, we have some staff who are millennials. I myself am a Generation X. And I think my gagool is from some Disney program or some... some kid's program from their generation.

CO: Well, our... some amongst our listeners will come and answer. I'm sure we'll be getting [chuckle] some kind of phones and mails about that. [WG chuckles] And so now, just finally, I mean, just explain to people why you hold a creepiest doll contest every year?

WG: Yeah, the way it came about is one of our volunteers was exploring our collections, looking to put something interesting on social media, and she came upon several boxes of dolls. And as her and the curator were going through them, they thought, wow, you know, these are… there's something a little off, something a little unnerving about these dolls. And so they decided to then put them up on social media to see what people thought. And so we have all these... these dolls, and people get a chance to react based on all of their cultural knowledge about... about dolls, including from watching Chucky and Annabelle and all those other scary, scary dolls.

CO: Well, we'll put the... post the pictures up on our media, and people can choose for themselves, which is the creepiest. I still think that Gagool is not creepy. [chuckle] But anyway, you've been in the room with her, so you know better. Wayne, it's good to talk to you. Thanks.

WG: Thank you, Carol.

CO: Bye.

WG: Bye-bye.

CH: Wayne Gannaway is the executive director of the History Center of Olmsted County. We reached him in Rochester, Minnesota.

[Music: Theremin]

2021 Wildlife Photographer of the Year

CH: In one photograph, taken from above, two polar bears are sitting in clear water, staring at each other. In another, a mother is pictured on vivid, green grass -- nursing two cubs. Those are two of the images that earned Martin Gregus the Rising Star Portfolio Award at the Natural History Museum's 2021 Wildlife Photographer of the Year competition. He took the photos over thirty-three summer days that he spent living alongside polar bears in northern Manitoba -- north of Churchill. He also had an assistant and a bear guard with him. Yesterday, the photographer spoke with the CBC about what that experience was like.

SOUNDCLIP

MARTIN GREGUS: Honestly, I felt a lot safer with the mums and cubs and other females. And they, I guess, did too because, ultimately, that's who we had around our camp. The males kind of stayed on the outskirts. Like, for instance, that picture with the mom and two cubs, that mom actually nursed her cubs. And then on a different occasion, not that one, and then she wandered off and left these two cubs a few feet away from her camp, just hanging out for about 45 minutes. [chuckling] And we just didn't know... we didn't believe our eyes because again, same thing, we're always taught, you know, don't approach moms and cubs and all of this. But she couldn't care less. She wandered off, left us with them and then came back to pick them up, and it felt like daycare. [chuckle]

GLORIA MACARENKO: OK, now there's another shot you have to describe. It looks like you're... you're taking a photo like... it looks like you're swimming with the bear. Frankly, you're right... the camera anyways, right down in the water. How did... how did you accomplish that?

MG: Yeah, so that picture actually first came to mind in 2015 during that first expedition when I saw these bears swimming. And ever since then, it was sort of feeding my imagination. I was trying to figure out how to get this picture. So we built this remote-controlled boat with... with my father in our backyard and tried to put a remote-controlled camera in front of it. And got it all working perfectly, ended up in Churchill, tried it in the river, everything worked fine, took it out on the bay, and the remote controller broke.

GM: Oh-no! [ both chuckling]

MG: That just happens. You know, you go out there, and things are just not going to go your way. And I had this bear swimming in the water and the six years of imagination, and I had to get this shot. So I put a camera at the end of a monopod and put an underwater housing at the end with the camera in it. Took a small boat, hunkered down in it and waited for this polar bear to swim right by me. And as he did, I stuck the camera in the water and managed to get that shot and the following shot, which was just the hind legs deep in the water. I was, you know, very close to the bear. I could hear him breathing. But, ultimately, I looked at my camera, I saw the picture, and my jaw just dropped.

CH: That was Vancouver wildlife photographer, Martin Gregus, speaking with Gloria Macarenko, host of On the Coast, yesterday.

[Music: Percusion]

Car Parade Homecoming

CH: It had been 231 days since Denver Genge was at home. Since March, the three-year-old has been in hospital for cancer treatments in both St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador, and Toronto. But last week, he and his family finally made the long car journey home, driving across the island from St. John's to Brig Bay. And on route, just as they were passing through the town of Port Saunders, Denver was greeted with this.

[Sound: Sirens]

CH: Courtney Genge is Denver's mother. Here she is talking about that special homecoming.

SOUNDCLIP

COURTNEY GENGE: Well, first, we... well, we saw the cop light, so we were assuming it was like a road check or something. And then we saw the firefighters, so we was like, oh no, I hope it’s not an accident. So we got closer and we saw the signs for Denver. So we were like, oh my God! We were beyond excited. Very emotional, obviously. It was very nice. It was very unexpected.

MARTIN JONES: So you think it's a police checkpoint at first? You realize then what exactly it is: people coming out to welcome you guys home. Walk us through your head when you see all that stuff.

CG: It kind of just drawed blank. Because first I saw my staff because I work at the hospital in Port Saunders. I saw the hospital staff first. And my husband works with the hydro, and some of their crowd was there. And the firefighters were there. It was the nursing crowd, hydro, Port Saunders fire fighters, the police, the Canadian Rangers. My husband and my mother are part of the Canadian Rangers. They were there to welcome us all home. It was amazing. A lot of the community... just community members who I've met through the hospital, more or less, were there to welcome us. And I guess they all know about Denver.

MJ: What did Denver think of the reception waiting for him there?

CG: [chuckle] He was very excited when he got out and he saw all the lights and everyone coming. The last few days in St. John's, it’s just been us there at the house. I think he was getting kind of bored. So then when he saw all the people, he was pretty excited.

MJ Is that him in the background?

CG: That's him.

MJ: Amazing. And how is he doing these days?

CG: He's very excited to be home. He's loving all his toys. He's loving his room. He’s loving it all.

MJ: When you see support like that, whether it's on the roadways, when you're returning home or anything else, what does it do to you to help you and your family get through it?

CG: This is a boost every day, obviously, all the thoughts, prayers, everything that everyone sent to us. They say in cancer, no one fights alone. Or in this family, no one fights alone. Well, we got a family that stretches for many kilometres. The welcome home was only at Port Saunders. And when we got home, at some point, they were waiting for us at the post office. All of our community members were there. And then when we actually got home, our family members were here, [chuckling] our immediate family, because everyone's family now.

CH: That is Courtney Genge speaking with Martin Jones, host of "Newfoundland Morning", about the car parade that greeted her family and her three-year-old son, after being away from home for 231 days.

[Music: Vocalization]

FOA: Dancing Pumpkin Guy

CH: Every October, it resurfaces. Like some zombie lurching toward us, a grainy 2006 video pulled from a local newcast out of Omaha, Nebraska makes the rounds online. Maybe this will jog your memory.

[Music: The “Ghostbusters” theme]

CH: This, of course, is the Ghostbusters theme. For some of you, it might conjure up images of the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man terrorizing New York City. But to the YouTube generation it conjures up something equally eerie and idiotic -- a man dancing in a skin-tight black unitard, with a pumpkin mask strapped to his face. It's quite possibly the greatest Halloween video on the internet. And in 2017, we were lucky enough to track down the man behind the mask. From our archives, here's Carol's conversation with Matt Geiler -- aka Dancing Pumpkin Man.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: Matt just for our listeners who haven't seen this or don't remember that they've seen this, what are you doing in this video?

MATT GEILER: I am joyously gyrating in a black unitard with a pumpkin on my face in a manic celebration of the spirit of Halloween.

CO: And the song — the piece of music?

MG: The song is The Ghost Busters theme.

CO: OK, let's go back the night when this began. How long ago, what year did you first do this video?

MG: This was two nights before Halloween 2006. At the time I was working as a news anchor, which is absolutely true but probably unbelievable. And we just had kind of gotten to the point in the evening where we were about to go live, but we had about seven minutes left before the show and the had to be stacked. So we were really scrambling to fill up a hole in the broadcast. And since our shows that week were Halloween themed just kind of out of desperation I did that.

[LAUGHTER]

CO: You did what? You ran out and put on a black unitard and a pumpkin head?

MG: Right. I said to my producer I said, “I want you to throw up a grave yard on the green screen. I'm just going to dance for like four minutes and then we can just put that into the block right before weather and it will eat up some time.”

CO: You did this live?

MG: We didn't do it live. The broadcast was live. It was probably about five or six minutes before we went live.

CO: But you were the anchor of the news?

[LAUGHTER]

MG: Right.

CO: Did anyone consider this inappropriate?

MG: You know, there was not a lot of oversight at the station. We were kind of left to our own devices, which was kind of inexplicable, but nobody at the time really had anything to say about it. I mean, I had a news director and also general manager there. They were kind of more concerned with the broadcast on our sister station to tell you the truth.

[LAUGHTER]

CO: Now had you had to cover this much air time before in some way?

MG: Oh yeah, I mean, we had a nightly broadcast that was 22 minutes every night seven-days-a-week. When I got hired the news director said “You'll have to borrow a camera people from the other station because there's not a designated photographer for this program.”So even from the get go like a lot of times I would just fill myself doing MOS pieces where you can literally see my arm up holding the camera on myself. I mean, it was crazy.

CO: It gives a new meaning to the word shoestring.

MG: Absolutely. Yeah it was beyond shoestring, it was like you just kind of had to fend for yourself. you know.

CO: After this video, which is I mean, it's kind of a staple of Halloween now, there's even versions that run for hours and that you can play at your Halloween parties. Was it an overnight sensation? Were you instantly famous for doing dancing Pumpkin Man?

MG: No, actually it was probably the day after we did it the guy who managed the YouTube channel the station threw it up on the YouTube channel. I think it sat there for about two years with maybe a couple hundred views and nothing happened with it until a guy at, I believe it was BuzzFeed, featured it in 2009. He was like “This is the greatest Halloween video the internet has ever produced” or something like that. And so that's when it first started to kind of gain its viral traction I guess.

CO: Do you have any idea how many people have seen it on YouTube?

MG: Right now I think the original is sitting at like six-and-a-half-million-views. But that's not counting — I mean, there's hundreds and hundreds of people who have mashed it up was different songs and stuff. So I think the last time anybody checked I think if you count all those it's probably closer to like 10.

CO: Now you're no longer a news anchor. You're no longer at that station and you don't even do the news anymore right?

MG: Right, right. Yeah.

[LAUGHTER]

CO: But is this still, I mean, do you still do Dancing Pumpkin Man or is that sort of in your past?

MG: It has been in my past for a while up until America's Got Talent called this year and was like “hey can we get to Dancing Pumpkin Man on? Really I had only ever done it that one time. It wasn't like a thing I toured around or anything. In my real life I'm an improvisational comedian and I tour a lot, I do a lot of colleges and clubs. So yeah, it's not something that I'm I do live really.

CO: And you have a costume for Halloween this year?

MG: I don't, it's weird. I do so much work in TV and live performance where I'm in costumes that I very rarely think about like the Halloween costume. I need to get on it because it's fast approaching.

CO: You do, it’s not much time to invent that. But and there's a lot of people who are going to be out there as Dancing Pumpkin Man.

MG: I know, I've had people trying to get in touch with me and asked how do you get the mask. The mask is the part that always hangs them up. They're always asking where I got the mask.

CO: What was it actually that you used as a mask?

MG: Yeah that's where I kind of can't help them because the original mask was just like a declaration from the lobby of the news station that I very quickly fashioned into a kind of a makeshift mask.

[LAUGHTER]

CO: All right Matt it's good to talk to you. Thanks.

MG: Thank you.

CH: From 2017, that was Carol speaking with Matt Geiler -- aka Dancing Pumpkin Man -- about his iconic Halloween video.

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October 26, 2021 Episode Transcript

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