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The Current Transcript for October 22, 2021

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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I do think that there are people who could maybe be more vetted or scrutinised who are abusing it, but to completely pull the rug out from under people who have bills do and who are already catching up. I think it's inhumane.

MATT GALLOWAY: Economic support programmes have been a lifeline for many Canadians as this pandemic has unfolded. Several of those benefits will end tomorrow, not a moment too soon for some business owners who blame them for staffing shortages and far too soon for others who wonder how they'll hang on without them. In an hour, turning off the taps in a rocky economy. In the meantime, the pandemic continues to rage, particularly in Alberta and Saskatchewan.

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I'm used to intensity. I'm used to seeing sick patients as a trauma surgeon. But what I've seen in the COVID floor, especially my past couple of shifts I'll never forget for the rest of my life.

MG: In 30 minutes in Alberta, doctor and nurse in their own words, on life, on the COVID ward, and a look at why Saskatchewan Premier Scott Moe is so reluctant to bring in the restrictions doctors in his province have been pleading for. We begin, though, with a new way to talk about and treat obesity. Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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These doctors are changing the conversation about weight loss, one patient at a time

Guests: Dr. Ali Zentner, Michael Vallis

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TERESA: Oh, it was always my fault. Who else's fault would it be? One of the very first things that Dr. Reardon said to me as I started to explain why I was so overweight was, it's not your fault. The obesity that you've been living with your entire life is not your fault. And it was hearing those words for the first time in my life that changed everything for me.

MG: For most of her life. Teresa Babb was fighting a battle she could not win. She was one of more than seven million Canadians who are considered obese. She tried everything, but she says she couldn't get help, even from doctors.

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TERESA: The bias that I came up against every single time was they either didn't want to talk about weight at all, or they would say fewer calories, more movement. And that was it. That was the cure all. And then, you know, I really pushed myself. I went through all the commercial programmes like Weight Watchers and Jenny Craig and oh, you know, I spent literally tens of thousands of dollars trying to lose weight all my life. All the while feeling like it is your fault that you're not succeeding because clearly they have people who have succeeded in the programme. I am a failure.

MG: Obesity is widely accepted to be a disease, and yet it's still often hard for many patients to get treatment, including medication for it. Two years ago, Teresa Babb went to a new doctor, the obesity expert Laura Reardon.

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DR. LAURA REARDON: So a lot of patients who come to see me probably have experiences like lots of the people out there, which is and they've tried everything, you know, every diet, every exercise. They've gone to, all these commercial weight loss programmes. They've hired personal trainers, they've gone to the gym. And of course, stemming from this is how our culture has looked at weight for many decades, which is that this is a maths problem, right? That this is about calories in and calories out. And this illusion, if you're living with extra weight, is to eat less and exercise more. And if that doesn't work, if that doesn't work for you, then you need to try harder. There is a better diet, there is more exercise, there is more commitment, there's more willpower, there's building character and more accountability. Unfortunately, this isn't how we works at all.

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TERESA: Not long before I met Dr. Reardon, actually, I met with a nurse practitioner who clearly was not comfortable talking about obesity. She said to me, Have you ever thought about losing weight? Which is probably one of the most offensive and ridiculous questions anyone could ask somebody who's overweight. So I said, of course, I've thought about losing weight my entire life I've thought about losing weight. I have lost weight. I've put it back on. I've lost it again. You've broached the subject, so let's talk about it. And she handed me this little piece of paper that was just a photocopy that was sort of like a photocopy of a business card for a weight loss programme at Dartmouth General Hospital. And she said, give them a call. Well, I didn't call. I don't understand why a health care professional would be afraid of talking to somebody or be uncomfortable about talking with a patient about health. We're talking about health.

DR. LAURA REARDON: When patients first come in and the very first thing we do in the office is hear patients stories. And this is something that I think is a very powerful thing to really listen to people. And for many people, it's the very first time they've been able to really describe what has been going on for them, and that's very emotional. And so I always say we have a big box of Kleenex on the desk, to help patients through that. The other time that the patients can get quite emotional is when we have the conversation about what weight is and really trying to destigmatize patients about that this is in fact not your fault, that this is something that is really a medical condition and that it's something very treatable. That's also a really emotional moment.

TERESA: Loving myself, not blaming myself. Those were things that were completely foreign to me, completely unfamiliar until Dr. Reardon liberated me by saying, This is your chemical makeup, this is your body, and we can help your body get healthy again. And that's exactly what we've done.

MG: That's Teresa Babb and Laura Reardon in Halifax. Teresa Babb has lost 150 pounds in the last couple of years. Dr. Ali Zentner is an internist who runs a public clinic specialising in obesity medication. She's in Vancouver. Doctor, good morning.

DR. ALI ZENTNER: Good morning. Thanks for having me. Thank you for being here.

MG: What do you make of what you've just heard?

DR. ALI ZENTNER: I am grinning from ear to ear, I mean, on the one hand, I think Theresa's story is so much so the norm of this idea that patients are literally shamed and blamed into isolation and can often go through their entire lives without meeting a doctor Reardon or coming to a clinic of any nature that in in her Teresa's words, liberates them and shows them the science and the sort of medical opportunities here. And then, on the other hand, I'm optimistic for conversations like this one where I know that enlightening people really can be empowering in terms of how we change culture. We're needing a reckoning on how we approach this patient population at all levels.

MG: I'll ask you about the reckoning in a moment, and I want to get down to the shaming part of this in a moment. But the blame is really interesting because both of those women said the phrase, It's not your fault. Why is that so important to hear?

DR. ALI ZENTNER: I will say this. I think medicine at its purest shouldn't really care how people come to us. And I should say when we say disease, let's be clear, we don't mean that patients are sick. We mean that the body is physiologically not performing its intended function, and that can affect how a person moves to the world. And in this case, we're talking about energy regulation. So there's, you know, a biological experience where the brain thinks it's starving and it stores fat inappropriately. And what's happened then, is that people feel that it's their responsibility. So that blaming experience that if it's my fault, then I got myself into this, so I had best get myself out of it. That's what's happening here is that you isolate people and further and further so that not only are they responsible for treating this, but every other, you know, medical experience that may result from this, whether it's, for example, we know that increased weight can predispose people in some cases to other diseases, so diabetes or high blood pressure. And if your weight gain is your fault, then your diabetes must be your fault or your heart disease, or what have you. And as a result, then you better retreating those, too. And so you never seek medical attention for anything. And wow, doesn't that become a huge responsibility to the individual who quite frankly, for a number of reasons, is already isolated in society and already stigmatised just by the nature of this idea of their physical appearance already pigeonholes them, if you will, into a specific category.

MG: Laura Reardon talked about understanding what weight is. You'll often hear people make reference to BMI Body Mass Index, for example. What's wrong with that?

DR. ALI ZENTNER: You know, we won't use profanity on the radio, but it's the whole medical index. The problem with BMI established in the eighteen hundreds by an astrologer who wanted to use it almost to sort of calculate the perfect average man. I use the Flemish and Scottish Army for it. It was never intended to be used in clinical practise. And now it's been adopted into mainstream sort of nomenclature. A BMI is purely just a calculation that's a reflection of height and weight. It doesn't account, for example, for gender, so it doesn't matter. They all have the same, quote, BMI criteria. It doesn't calculate for location of fat tissue, for muscle mass, for the metabolic nature of fat tissue, et cetera. It tells us nothing. The real challenge here is that already in medicine, the emperor has no clothes. We're using a standard that had no business being used. We've already made this sort of diagnostic criteria of you're in or you're out just based on a number that doesn't have scientific validity. You know, I think the other challenges the word obese.

MG: Was going to say, like the language really matters?

DR. ALI ZENTNER: Yeah. So obesity comes from the French and the Latin mean to eat oneself fat. Isn't that horrible?

MG: Why are we still using language like that?

DR. ALI ZENTNER: Thank you. And so the term we're using goes against everything that we now are really highlighting in terms of the science that we know. And, you know, in medicine, we're saying it's a disease and then there's the but. And so this idea of you're carrying increased weight, therefore you are fat, lazy. Not really smart. You don't know what you're doing. You don't understand. You're super unhealthy and you really don't care. And then on the medical side, well, you must have diabetes and you must have high blood pressure.

MG: Well, that's important because you said super unhealthy and I mean traditionally, but also, I mean, just in society, the assumption is that if somebody is living with obesity, carrying weight, that society and perhaps traditional medicine looks at as excessive, that that can lead to adverse health consequences.

DR. ALI ZENTNER: Agreed. And it can, but it's a risk factor. Right. Just like we know that other thing, you know, for example, inactivity and a sedentary lifestyle can lead to risk factors that every other area of medicine. We appreciate that for some reason here it's become this straight line.

MG: How do you treat patients differently?

DR. ALI ZENTNER: You know, telling people with weight to just eat less and move more is like telling people with depression to cheer up. And I watched people literally exhale like, Oh, thank God, this is not going to be the same kind of experience. And then we talk about the genetics involved. You know, where we put our weight, how much weight all of us lose and gain in our lifetimes. That's all genetics. This idea of the treatment, just like with any disease, when you go see the doctor, you say, What can you do for me? Not what am I going to do for myself? I better take care of this. In fact, I I'm baffled that this is the one area of medicine that we're as a profession somehow and not all of us, but sort of culturally in our profession. We're sort of comfortable with leaving it to the patients to treat. And yet every other area, we really want to be involved.

MG: What are the treatments that you offer?

DR. ALI ZENTNER: We offer medication. You know, I think most people would be shocked to know, for example, some of the current medication offers 20 percent body weight loss. In, you know, 30 to 50 percent of patients, we offer the option of bariatric surgery. And make no mistake. I'm not suggesting that everyone who carries weight needs to go on medication or needs to have surgery. But the fact that these options are available to those patients where their weight is impeding their quality of life, 10 percent body weight loss. 20 percent body weight loss makes a massive difference in then how they continue to move through the world.

MG: How much I want to bring in another voice that is involved in helping to teach people in the medical community some of what you've been talking about, but how much of what you're describing is covered in medical school today, do you think?

DR. ALI ZENTNER: You're talking to someone who's been banging on doors for the last decade? Unfortunately, and there's actually evidence to show this that in in North America, in general, in Canada in particular, it's very little is covered. We're not teaching the next generation of health care providers, period. This information, in fact, your listeners now know more than the average second or third year medical student.

MG: All right. Hang on with us because Michael Vallis has been listening in psychologist, associate professor of family medicine at Dalhousie University. He trains doctors in how to treat obesity, and he's a counsellor for people with the disease he is in. Halifax. Michael, good morning to you.

MICHAEL VALLIS: Good morning.

MG: The doctor was saying that you've been banging on doors in many ways for years. Why is it that medical students aren't learning more about this when this is not a rare disease?

MICHAEL VALLIS: Absolutely. I think the key that you've just said is that it's not a rare disease, but is it considered by health providers to be a disease or is it considered by health care providers to be moral failure on the individual's part. And I think that's the transition that is happening. And so I think that what we're currently seeing, I think and this is a great opportunity to make it public is a reframing or what I like to say, a retelling of the narrative and what we've learnt now over the last number of years. That's really reframing this conversation. And this is, I think, where the knocking on the doors, the doors are actually you need to be answered. And which is this is actually a medical condition. And one of the things that I really like to emphasise is weight is not a behaviour. You cannot control weight. BMI is not a measure of health. It's the measure of gravity. And so we need to shift this conversation. And in fact, I think we're beginning to see a revitalising of the medical school curriculum and also other health professionals. So I'm actually fairly optimistic that the voice of individuals like Teresa will be accepted and heard. And that's why I do believe there's some reason for optimism, but I believe that the. Telling of the narrative is critically important.

MG: What do you say to doctors because we heard, you know, just reluctance even to bring up this issue? So what do you say to doctors about how even just to start approaching this issue, how to start talking about this issue?

MICHAEL VALLIS: Yeah, that's a really great question. And you hear this quite commonly providers will say, I don't want to offend the person that I'm working with. I know that they're, you know, trying. I need to maintain my relationship, so I don't quite know what to say. And this is really a key aspect of shifting the conversation. We published a study in Canada just a couple of years ago in which we found that individuals living with obesity waited 11 years from the time they started to struggle to raising the issue with their provider

MG: because of what's going to happen when they raise the issue.

MICHAEL VALLIS: Exactly. They're afraid of judgement. And so what we're trying to do is is really give the health provider the obligation. So look at people living with obesity is a vulnerable population. They've been mistreated because of this 'eat less, move more, using willpower' narrative. And so therefore, we as health providers have the responsibility to ask permission to have the conversation. Would it be OK if we talked about your weight and help? Could I ask you some questions? But really, this whole idea of disconnecting weight from worth is extremely important. But one of the things that I'd like everyone to appreciate is that let's say you take 100 people and you put them in this effective treatment. Some people will lose nothing. And some people will lose a tremendous amount. So Teresa, working with Dr. Reid in Los 150 pounds, could Dr. Reardon predict that? No, absolutely not. And so we're trying to reframe that narrative so that we help people go from expectations. I'm hoping to lose all this weight to satisfaction. So it's not about losing weight, it's about gaining health, function and quality of life.

MG: Dr. Zentner, what would you say to somebody who is listening right now who is experiencing everything that you and Michael have been talking about in terms of the stigma, in terms of not knowing where to turn and who to turn to that they could trust?

DR. ALI ZENTNER: I would apologise. Actually, I would say, I'm really sorry. That's in the true spirit of being Canadian, but also that I would be sorry that the health profession has labelled you as unhealthy just because of a physical weight and to echo Michael's point of not every person needs to lose weight to be healthy. Often when we have these conversations or interviews, it's Oh, so-and-so lost one hundred and fifty pounds and so people hear and then go, Oh, OK, so I'm going to get that help. As we, you know, Laura's patient Teresa is this wonderful, you know, story, so to speak. But what if she didn't lose any weight? Would the story still be as optimistic? And I would argue yes, because, you know, we've changed this woman's mind and her sense of self and her understanding of this process. Would it shock you to know that, you know, for example, when we talk about treatments, none of these agents are covered under any pharmacare across the country. I mean, our government's talk about the importance of preventative health and yet our health care budgets never address that. Bariatric surgery is performed at a fraction of the rate that it should be in this country. We need to do better as a health care profession, but I would argue that the system that supports us needs to step up as well.

MG: I'm really glad to speak with you both about this. There's a lot to think about here. Thank you very much.

MICHAEL VALLIS: Thank you.

DR. ALI ZENTNER: You're welcome.

MG: Dr. Ali Zentner treats obesity in Vancouver. Michael Vallis is a psychologist and obesity specialist in Halifax. We'd love to hear your thoughts on this, particularly around the language we use and the treatment we as a society offer when we talk about obesity. You can email us at thecurrent@cbc.ca. We're on Twitter as well @TheCurrentCBC. You're CBC News is next. And then health care workers have been working themselves into the ground during this pandemic, and in some places there is still no end in sight to packed ICU use. In six minutes, we'll hear from a doctor and a nurse in Alberta about what their week has been like and how they do what they do every. Single day. My name is Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One.

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Redeployed front-line staff share what it’s like battling Alberta’s fourth wave of COVID-19

Guest: Murray Mandryk

MG: Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, the Canada recovery benefit is set to end this weekend. It's been a lifeline for some who found themselves out of work during the pandemic. Others have blamed the benefit for keeping people out of the workplace while businesses are desperate for extra hands. In about 30 minutes, we'll talk about what it means to see the CRB cut off. But first, let's spend a week on the COVID ward.

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MG: The fourth wave of COVID 19 is showing signs of improvement in Alberta. New case numbers are dropping, but that doesn't mean it's over just yet. Intensive care units would still be well over capacity if it weren't for emergency beds made available. The cancellation of thousands of elective surgeries and the redeployment of staff some nurses and doctors have volunteered to leave their usual roles and help their colleagues on the front lines of COVID units. We asked two of them to share their experiences with us by recording audio diaries after work. Here's what they sent.

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Dr. Debakanta Jena: This is Dr. Debakanta Jena. I am one of the orthopaedic surgeons, art medicine at the General Hospital in Alberta. I'm just finishing my fourth shift in the COVID floor today, just finishing up, going home. I found that today's shift was much better compared to my last three ones in terms of the volume in terms of the intensity, and the good thing was some of the bad stuff empty now compared to what I saw even last week. So that's the good news. The slightly worrying thing is we are still getting admissions, people are still getting admitted at a relatively young age, and it makes you even sad when you know that most of them are unvaccinated. And hopefully we do not see the bump. Last year, we saw a couple of weeks after the Thanksgiving holiday.

Cecilia Incze: My name is Cecilia Incze, and I'm a registered nurse. I have been nursing for 10 years in critical care and then in the last recent five years was at the Alberta Children's Hospital at the ICU. I volunteered at Foothills Medical Centre ICU in December, January and February of twenty one and I now have been mandatorily redeployed as of September until the end of October and have recently found out that now I will be redeployed until December. I just finished my five 12-hour night shifts in a row. Those shifts were very long and very busy. Our unit at Foothills ICU is almost at max capacity. Each room has been doubled. And there is one nurse per room, meaning one nurse per two patients and each one of these rooms requiring a helper R.N. such as myself, who have been redeployed just as I have been.

Dr. Debakanta Jena: As an orthopaedic surgeon, walking in COVID unit, was in the least [unintelligible] and definitely challenging. I'm used to intensity. I'm used to seeing sick patients as a trauma surgeon. But what I saw in the first couple of days in the COVID shift, during the COVID shift on the floor, I absolutely never forget that. The number of sick patients, the intensity, the ability of our nursing staff and colleagues and physicians to look after all of them talking to the patients, families quickly making decisions on the feet. And of course, when I admitted a couple of patients, I will never forget the fear in their eyes. I mean, it is definitely something that will stay with me for a long time.

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Cecilia Incze: I'm used to being exposed to tragedy related to children, and now it has doubled in regards to being with adults. Tragedy and loss of life, tragedy in people and patients who don't recover well. They don't come out as well as they have gone in. Their recovery is much longer and much harder, with a lot more consequences for long term. It's also hard to visually see these patients because I see them as family, I see them as. Someone who would be a father or mother or a grandparent or a sibling. They're much closer to my age.

Dr. Debakanta Jena: First day I was going through all my work and suddenly I had to speak to a patient who was not definitely was not a candidate who will survive in ICU, and I have to put it to him and put it to his family and. It is not easy to have those discussions, so but I guess that's out of it for what you have to explain the reality to the business. You do your best. Never give up on anybody. You don't get much chance to get emotional in this job, but. We are all humans at the end of the day, I mean, it's hard not to think about it. yy second [unintelligible] make second shift was much easier than the first one. I just felt much more confident going that day, but still I realised that it cannot be easy, especially when there are too many sick people, and we're just discussing about a particular precinct was relatively young that he may need to go to ICU and unfortunately he didn't make it. And I still, remember, a couple of nures just came out after the day and started crying, and they were taking tissues from a box, and there are sticky labels on that tissue box saying it's OK to cry. It is OK to cry for health care workers because you know the patients are not our family members, but they become someone who we look after, and if they don't make it, you know? You think that somehow you probably have failed? And if you are strong enough and mature enough to realise that you did your best, you still feel bad. Loss of human life under any circumstances is never easy and especially when a relatively young person dies.

Cecilia Incze: I haven't seen this many adult deaths. I've seen plenty of children pass away, but not in adults. And it's amazing how fast they decline and how fast they go. There isn't always a lot of opportunity for us to save them just because due to their co-morbidities and difficulty of taking care of them. Their bodies give out. And when their organs fail, there's nothing we can do. It's very sad knowing that how fragile the body is and how fast it is to decline and how little in some instances we're able to help. I have to say the worst shift out of my five was around shift number three, upon which I had been placed back to a room that I was already working with the previous nurse about two or three weeks ago. And the same patient was still there. It just goes to show how long it takes to recover and how slow we move patients through the ICU just because based on the severity of their illness.

Dr. Debakanta Jena: Almost 90 to 95 percent of patients admitted in the COVID unit, I'm not talking about ICU just in the COVID floor where I did my shifts, they were unvaccinated. And I mean, you don't have to even have any statistics after that if, say, 25 out of 27 patients were admitted are unvaccinated. You just know that vaccines had working and you feel really sad that some people are not taking it for whatever reason, not getting too sick.

Cecilia Incze: It's shocking is disappointing, especially when there are options out there to prevent this from happening. A lot of people are struggling who have plenty of other different illnesses that they need space for into the ICU. And it's difficult to find room right now. A lot of sicker patients are to be on the floor units much longer before they can get to ICU just because of capacity issues.

Dr. Debakanta Jena: You know, the moral and ethical debate about the healthcare system being stretched, for patients not taking the vaccine and getting sick and getting admitted in the hospital, the reality, the collateral damage we see as a surgeon, I have seen at least I myself have cancelled 20-25 patients who had in my elective operating list. And when I call them and telling them, I'm sorry, we have to cancel because you do not have the operating rooms available. I could understand their frustration. But when I walked into the unit, you know, that kind of [unintelligible] I thought, will be with me, just completely melted away. I absolutely had no anguish or hard feelings about people not taking the vaccine and getting sick and getting admitted. I just wish all of them, get better and go home soon. And I imagined why when you work with so many sick people, you absolutely cannot have that judgement to yourself, I guess. The biggest, biggest challenge and frustration and disappointment has been a small group of physicians and health care workers who have spoken out against the vaccines, against the health care majors to outright denial of this pandemic. And that has been one of the biggest frustrations and the vast majority. And, you know, look at the healthcare workers who are putting themselves in the line of danger of getting exposed every day and walking away to look after this people. And then you suddenly have that, that pride in this profession. And if I did not work in the COVID unit, you know, I probably would not have been exposed to that. So I'm very thankful that I took that leap and did what I did.

Cecilia Incze: There is a sense of duty to do, it is a job that I'm very passionate about. And if I didn't have any passion to help people, I wouldn't be here. But it isn't without cost. It is hard on everybody. Everybody individually and people as a team as well. And I look forward to this wave being over, a lot of nurses need a break. We've been going at it all summer long. We've been denied vacation. We don't have enough of a break and winter seasons coming and Christmas is coming and we all need a break. So let's hope that happens. Really.

Dr. Debakanta Jena: I see that today they have been giving flu shots, so like everyone else, I got mine, even got a sticker and a small candy. I am finishing off on a pretty lighter note today that patients are doing well. Numbers are coming down and I just hope that, fingers crossed, it continues. People keep taking their vaccines. Keep listening to the public health measures. And we'll all get to the other side sooner together. When things get bad, many people came together. We saw the best of our profession walking in the front line, and I could not be more prouder of this bunch of colleagues and health care workers we have amongst us.

Cecilia Incze: So all of the 78 nurses who have been redeployed were placed into a draw that was hosted to be hosted by the Calgary Flames home opener game tonight,

ANNOUNCER: Tonight we pay tribute to 24 frontline heroes, each representing a member...

Cecilia Incze: And I found out last week that I was one of the ones that won the draw. And so it was a huge surprise and a great honour to be one of the nurses to represent Alberta health services who are all struggling during these last two years. And so we were brought out onto the ice and we got to walk down a beautiful red carpet.

ANNOUNCER: For Alberta [unintelligible], Cecilia.

[Cheers and applause]

Cecilia Incze: Then everyone did one massive clap and it was actually a standing ovation. Everyone stood up and just- that brought- I had to fight tears of joy and relief. It was- it was amazing.

MG: Dr. Debakanta Jena is an orthopaedic surgeon in Medicine Hat. Cecilia Incze is a critical care paediatric nurse in Calgary. Both were redeployed to help in the COVID wards this fall and thanks to them for sharing what they have been through over the last several weeks. Next door in Saskatchewan. COVID cases are skyrocketing and the pressure on ICUs has become unsustainable for the health care system there. In a technical briefing on Wednesday, the province's medical officer of health, Dr. Saqib Shahab, broke down.

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In the past. I've been there's mention that, you know, Dr. Shahab just pleads to the public and he doesn't direct an order. But I have no shame and pleading to the public that, you know, we've gone so far and, you know, we just have to pull along for the next few weeks and months. And you know, it is distressing to see what is happening in schools and hospitals. And I'm sorry, I know it's a very challenging time.

MG: Murray Madryk is a political columnist with the Regina Leader. Post Murray. Good morning!

MURRAY MANDRYK: Good morning.

MG: What did you think of that moment listening to Dr. Shahab? He was incredibly emotional, given everything that he and folks in the province have gone through

MURRAY MANDRYK: here and again, I'm getting the same reaction as coming after that very moving piece you, you guys did from Alberta. That makes you sad, but. And initially, that's your reaction with Dr. Shahab's comments. But then you get really mad. And I think the whole entire province right now is getting really mad at the government and its refusal to listen to doctors refusal to move on certain issues. Dr. Shahab has put up with all kinds of abuses here, Matt, that you couldn't possibly imagine people accosting him as he's leaving scrums in front of the Legislature. People are costing him in front of his home because that's what it's like in terms of having to deal with some of the numbskulls. They're denying masks, denying vaccinations the same as everywhere. But on top of that, he's a really sweetheart of a guy, just a really nice, decent man. You could tell that from your dealings with him, and we've been dealing with him for years over things like, you know, the lesser of lesser consequence. And now you see him suffering like that and he could only be mad and you can only be mad for the situation. And I think that's in essence really how the province feels right now. There is the government.

MG: Well, there's some confusion. I want to ask about the government here, but there's been some confusion because there are now what nine people being sent to Ontario for ICU treatment and there's been confused messaging about all of this. What does that tell you that the numbers themselves are a bit fuzzy?

MURRAY MANDRYK: Well, the numbers are fuzzy because the government will provide the clarity that they need and they want to so control the message and so control the narrative that that they're at odds with doctors. And this is making the doctor's incredibly angry. There was doctors on Facebook posts last night, in essence, calling the premier and health officials working under the premier. Everything in this province, by the way, has been handed over to the Emergency Response Organisation as opposed to sort of the medical channel. But there is doctors right now basically calling the Premier a liar simply because of these numbers, because they're in dispute. They are saying that their patients are being transferred or their patient transfers are being cancelled because of government and the government is at this point disputing the numbers of people said not exactly the conversation you want to be getting into in the middle of a health crisis.

MG: A lot of that anger, as you mentioned, is directed at the Premier. My CBC colleague Stephani Langenegger spoke with Premier Scott Moe earlier this week about the crisis in the ICU. Take a listen.

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VOICE 1: This is obviously a last resort. Why didn't you avoid this by acting sooner?

VOICE 2: Well, there you know, that's a fair question. And I said that yesterday, you know, sure, the government acted, you know, seven or 10 days sooner.

VOICE 1: For two months.

VOICE 2: Well, with the public health measures that we had put in place that are proving to be lowering our case trajectory here today. And so...

VOICE 1: We're not really talking a week or 10 days. We're not really talking a week or 10 days. Doctors were flagging you months in advance. And in fact, every medical health officer you have signed a letter August 26, then you didn't do anything for 22 days afterwards.

VOICE 2: I mean, we most certainly are in the middle of September did, take measures...

VOICE 1: Yeah. September 17th, you took that measure, but August 26, they told you, Please do it right now. We're in big trouble. August 26. They said that

VOICE 2: Right. And we had discussions through our health minister through our the leadership at this discussion. Health Authority.

MG: CBC Stephani Langenegger speaking with the Premier Scott Moe Maori Madryk. Help me understand this. What is motivating the premier to handle the pandemic in the way that he is?

MURRAY MANDRYK: I think he was in so determined to be amongst the first to reopen in the summer because his narrative has been more about how the pandemic has been bad for the economy and bad for the province as a whole, as opposed to bad for the people's health. The other driving factor, I think bad is they were ill prepared for this fourth wave and by ill prepared, I mean, not prepared at all. I don't think they actually anticipated it happening here, at least not in terms of the numbers that we're seeing right now. There are more per capita people in ICU in Saskatchewan than anywhere in Canada at any time during the pandemic. They had no idea that this was going to happen, but I don't think they even had had a plan for something of a quarter or half that volume of ICU patients. And I think that's where the problem lies. Why the Premier can't acknowledge right now that he was wrong is stunning.

MG: But also, why isn't he not immune to Stephani's point? I mean, people signed the letter. Doctor signed a letter in August calling for. For stronger methods to help prevent the situation that the province is in right now. I mean, ideologically, what is this about if you say it's about the economy, but is there something else that's going on there?

MURRAY MANDRYK: Well, it is ideological. It is the economy. You have to remember that we were right in the middle of a provincial election of a federal election at the time in which a provincial premier is highly supportive of the federal Tories. And I think they were very concerned about driving votes to Maxime Bernier and the PPC. By no small coincidence, Maxime Bernier and the PPC held their election night rally in Saskatchewan of all places simply because the rules were more lax. There is pressure from the right here and in Alberta in particular, less so obviously in Manitoba, but here in Alberta to open up to not have restrictions. The anti-mask anti-vax lobby here is at least more vocal, I think, than it is up proportionally elsewhere in the country. They have the premier's ear in the sense of of the premier fearing their influence. And that has been the case for more than a year now, and I think that's really driving the issue right now. That he won't apologise is so off brand for Scott. And this is what none of us can really figure out here, Matt, is that he's the humble everyday guy premier that's come from the farm and goes and combines on the weekend during the fall, like all good farm boys do. And so it would seem to be effective if he would basically sit back and say, Well, I made a mistake here, and I'm going to get. I'm going to. I'm going to do better. He's you have to do that. He's had to apologise to the families that are moving out. And this is for now, as you said before, with the doctors, they sent out a press release basically saying, don't believe doctors postings on the internet when they're telling you about patient transfers that we're talking about.

MG: We just we have about a minute left. You wrote a column yesterday in the last line was that people in the province shouldn't be said. You should be damn mad. Do you expect the government to change its position given the anger in your province?

MURRAY MANDRYK: No, I don't think so. And that's the problem right now. They're just not getting it, and they have a very large majority and they see no threat from the NDP opposition here. So they have no political reason or political motivation to change. And I think that's sadly the driving factor. And I think we're just going to be in a difficult time. This is Saskatchewan. There was a very popular government that was in for 20 years, and it lost in 1964 because they got the doctors mad. And I don't know if this is a great formula for Scott Moe.

MG: Muuray Mandryk, good to speak with you. Take good care of yourself.

MURRAY MANDRYK: Thank you. Take care.

MG: Murray Mandryk is a political columnist with the Regina Leader post. Well, coming up after your regional update.

SOUNDCLIP

Since the COVID business has just completely changed, there's not enough work without the CRB I won't be able to pay rent, and I'm not even the kind [unintelligible] people in similar situations.

MG: Billions of dollars has been flowing from the federal government over the course of this pandemic, and now that government is calling time in particular on the Canada Recovery Benefit. We'll talk about what that means for people who relied on it, who still rely on it. That's coming up in 90 seconds. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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What the end of some pandemic supports mean for the economy

Guests: Vick Singh, Jordan Sorenti, Armine Yalnizyan, Sri Thanabalasingam,

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. The Canada recovery benefit was never meant to be permanent, neither were the wage and rent supports for businesses that the federal government rolled out during the pandemic to help keep the Canadian economy afloat. And now those programmes will end on Saturday.

SOUNDCLIP

We are moving from the very broad based support that was appropriate at the height of our lockdowns to more targeted measures that will provide help where it is needed while prudently managing government finances.

MG: That's the Finance Minister Chrystia Freeland speaking earlier this week. There will still be some support for certain businesses, including the tourism and hospitality sectors. The Canada Sickness Benefit and the Canada Caregiver Benefit are also being extended, but the end of the CRB has serious consequences for some. Vick Singh has a business called the Canadian Education Hub. It helps newcomers prepare for English proficiency tests and other exams. We reached him in Surrey, British Columbia. Vick Singh. Good morning.

VICK SINGH: Good morning, Matt.

MG: Tell me about your business. How were you making a living before COVID arrived?

VICK SINGH: I've been doing helping the people for English language skills and helping them to pass the exams so that they can become permanent residency in Canada. And also, when the nurses are coming from India, Fiji and Philippines, then I'm helping them to prostate exams so that they can become nurses in Canada again.

MG: How busy were things before COVID?

VICK SINGH: Always having 20 students every month, mostly from India, Fiji, Philippines, Korea, Japan, even Russia. I thought from every country I talked to my students.

MG: When did troubles begin for you when it came to the business?

VICK SINGH: For me, the trouble was the in the 2020 for the two to three months when there was a lockdown. But after that, yes, I was doing good in the 2020s till the people were coming. And still, I mean, there were a lot of people still in Canada who were looking to become PR, but the real trouble came to me now, in the last three months, four months when the flights were stopped and there were no immigration from India especially, and that was [unintelligible] travel time. I applied for CRB, I never applied for the CERB, but I applied for CRB in the last three months. And that's a real. I appreciate the help from the government that I'm getting your help.

MG: You had, as you mentioned, 20 students or so a month when those flights were locked down in the last few months or so. How many students did that dropped to?

VICK SINGH: Just one or two.

MG: Just one or two?

VICK SINGH: Yeah, sometimes none, because otherwise also the people who are already in Canada, the government reduced the planes and all of them that just got their PR by scoring less points, also in the English language exams. So there are no people left out.

MG: You mentioned that you applied for the CRB. What difference did that make for you?

VICK SINGH: I'm able to help myself in the hard thing and I'm able to pay my rent and I'm able to take care of my basic amenities with the help of the CRB.

MG: If you didn't have access to that benefit, what would have happened, do you think in the last few months?

VICK SINGH: Then I would have relied on my savings accounts to guard that. Yes, I have a habit of saving and that would have been. The other thing I would have started looking for the job, that was the only option.

MG: Did you really worry about making ends meet? I mean, savings can only last for so long.

VICK SINGH: Now, I'm really scared that what is happening now and I started communicating, is alot busy. I'm getting still having to go back to maybe find some job. But on the business side, I'm thinking then to start teaching the kids going to the school. But even it will take a lot of time for me to change my business better and go going to the school tutoring rather than teaching the immigrants so everything new to buying what I may be going back to the job. But that will also take one or two months. Or I'm only requesting the government to give it a case-by-case reference and talk to us for one minute or two minutes and to know our real situation. I don't want the free money to be just to be given without any reason, but talk to us just like when we are calling for EI and the government, the people to talk to us, they know our situations. So that's what I'm requesting for.

MG: And do you feel I mean, these benefits are going to end now, they're going to be replaced with other targeted benefits. But do you feel as though you haven't been listened to because they're ending so quickly?

VICK SINGH: I'm only requesting that all the people cannot fall in one same category. I just started getting from the last three months and all 18 months and 15 months before that, I never requested for any help. I was good. So please, I need help now. Please help me now.

MG: So without this help, what is this going to mean for the business?

VICK SINGH: Nothing. Then I just compare myself to the other hundreds of the businesses which have been closed. So, okay, so I'm going to close for a while, maybe six months or eight months, I don't know.

MG: And in that time, you talked about perhaps thinking you might have to look for another job as well.

VICK SINGH: Yeah, I already started looking, but it's not going to come right away. But I'm looking forward to going into production. I'll be going for these jobs or maybe going into customer service or in a call centre, medical transcription. So I'm looking for these type of jobs and I'm already working with the work we see. Yes.

MG: How are you holding up through all of this? It's been a really difficult 18 months in small businesses like yours have been hit hard. How are you holding up?

VICK SINGH: From the last four months, I can say it is. I'm really holding very difficult. Before that, it is one of the lucky person in my business, I like that 13-14 months I was still able to have the students online and the people were- they're connecting with me from Toronto, Saskatchewan. And back then I was feeling lucky that, oh my god, I'm still a lucky one, but not from the last four months. No, they oh my god. I'm also now in the pool of the unlucky ones.

MG: And do you think that your business will be restarted that in six months time you'll be able to get things going again with this company?

VICK SINGH: Yes. Yes.

MG: I hope you're right, and I wish you the best of luck. It's good to talk to you. Thank you very much.

VICK SINGH: Thank you, sir.

MG: Vick Singh runs a business called the Canadian Education Hub. It helps newcomers prepare for English proficiency tests and other exams. The Canada Recovery Benefit Programme expires on Saturday. The CRB has been viewed differently by some business owners, especially those who are struggling to find workers to hire. Jordan Sorenti is the owner of Paddy's Barbecue and brewery in Calgary, Jordan. Good morning to you.

JORDAN SORENTI: Good morning, Matt.

MG: What's it been like trying to hire workers over the last year and a half?

JORDAN SORENTI: Oh, it's been crazy, it's funny when you contacted, when your show contacted me yesterday, I was in the midst of interviews. I just won another ad, you know, I got about 22 applicants in about three hours. Of those 22 applicants, I drilled down to about eight people to interview of the eight people I wanted to interview, four showed up. And I managed to hire two. Now of the two that I hired, if both of them show up. I'm lucky, but I have my serious doubts they're going to actually show up. It's been very, very difficult and this has been, probably this year, you know, I was listening to Mr. Singh, and he's talking about how last year was not that bad. This year is quite horrible.

MG: Well, we've heard from some business groups and some politicians as well who have blamed the federal benefits for businesses like yours, having a difficult time finding employees and hanging on to employees. Is that something that you subscribe to?

JORDAN SORENTI: I am not going to point a finger, necessarily, but I think if there is a part of it, that can possibly be the problem. I think in the early days, more so than in the latter part of the days, the early days people were isolating with, and they got the sniffles and then collecting back then, CERB. And I think in the early days, it was a very real problem and we did have much more problems in the early days trying to staff. At one point we were just down to my wife and I and one employee. Now I think the benefit is is is there for people who need it. I don't really believe it is what's affecting our labour problem right now.

MG: What is affecting your labour problem, do you think?

JORDAN SORENTI: Oh, I can't say for certain. I think people are getting tired of the pandemic. You know, we're more than 18 months, 20 months and people are getting angry. People are getting frustrated. I don't know. I think some people are just giving up. In our industry, for instance, I noticed that I'm looking at applications where people last worked in the service industry back in March of 2020, when they went into its first shutdown, a lot of them went into manufacturing jobs. They went to work for, you know, Amazon, any any job that they could get. Now they're looking at trying to come back into the service industry, but we've got a very, very real shortage. And I know that there's other other businesses. You know, I get I get people coming in for for lunch and they're talking about trying to hire people and they just can't find them. I don't know. I don't know.

MG: What does it mean for your business? I mean, the government announced that this benefit, the CRB is going to be wound down as of tomorrow, but there are new wage subsidies. There's rent supports for the tourism industry, including restaurants like yours. Is that going to help, do you think, keep the business afloat?

JORDAN SORENTI: Well, you know, actually, Matt, it really sounds wonderful. But let me just drill down some stats for you. Last year's September 2020, I ended up with almost $10000 in wage subsidies, which really helped. This year, September. Same month, I have 20 percent less in sales and my wage subsidy was $2000. So when you listen to Chrystia Freeland talking about maximums, OK, the government gets really free and easy with their calculations. So how is it that I have 20 percent less in sales and 80 percent less in subsidies, so more of us are hurting now? Now, with the new subsidies coming out, there's a threshold so apparently for the tourism industry, which would include us in the restaurants, we have to be able to prove a 40 percent reduction overall over the year, as well as the current month. What happens here, at 39 percent, you don't qualify. So I don't know. It sounds wonderful, but I don't think it's actually going to work for a lot of businesses.

MG: Just before I let you go, I mean, how long can can something like this go on before it becomes kind of an existential crisis for the existence of the business itself?

JORDAN SORENTI: Well, like, for instance, right now, my wife and I are we're at retirement age less than that, and we're dipping into our savings right now to keep the business afloat. How long can we do that? You know, I don't know. How long do I want to do that? I don't want to do it anymore. And myself, I'm getting tired of doing it. But you know what? I'm going to persevere and we're going to try to get through this.

MG: I wish you the best of luck as well, Jordan. Take care of yourself.

JORDAN SORENTI: Thanks, Matt.

MG: Jordan Sorenti is the owner of Paddy's Barbecue and Brewery. He was in Calgary since this pandemic began. The federal government has paid out $289 billion in support to businesses and individuals over the next few months. Those taps, as we heard, won't be turned off completely, but they will be turned down. Armine Yalnizyan is an economist and Atkinson fellow on the future of Workers. Sri Thanabanasingam is and a senior economist at TD Bank, and they both join us now to talk about the state of the economy, these benefits and who perhaps is being left behind as the taps are being turned off. Good morning to you both.

SRI THANABALASINGAM: Good morning.

ARMINE YALNIZYAN: Good morning.

MG: What did you make of what Chrystia Freeland was saying yesterday that the broad supports that we have seen over the course of this pandemic are now going to be replaced by more targeted measures? Is it the time for that?

SRI THANABALASINGAM: Well, the the economy is in a very different place now than what it was at the beginning of the pandemic. We were seeing a stronger economic growth. The labour market in terms of employment levels is back where it was prior to the pandemic. So if you look at those those factors, it would argue for less fiscal support than what we had seen at the height of the pandemic. So in that regard, in that regard, it does seem like the right step forward as we move to this next phase of the economic recovery.

MG: Armine, what about from your perspective, is now the time to, as I say, turn the taps down a little bit and cut back on some of those pandemic benefits?

ARMINE YALNIZYAN: I don't know, Matt, that's why I'm not in politics. I think no politician can do. I don't think any politician can do the right thing right now because we're all walking on a tightrope. The pandemic isn't over. There are people like Mr. Singh and Jordan in Calgary that are hanging on by their finger fingertips. That number of people is probably well over a million people in the country. Will they survive when the taps are turned off, which, by the way, was not done overnight? We were surprised they didn't extend it. But we've been told for a very long time that the end date is October the 23rd, so they did it. They didn't turn the taps all the way off. However, should all the money disappear, we are looking at something like a quarter of a million dollars every month, every week being pulled out of the economy. That might lead to a giant sucking sound of purchasing power that leads to another recession, which is what the Americans are on the brink of. On the other hand, it could well be, as she has said, that we have been seeing for every period that either businesses or individuals can apply for help. The numbers have been like plunging in the last few months. So maybe we were on the way out and maybe some people will get caught. But there is no system you can design that. Absolutely nobody gets caught. I really like Mr. Singh's idea that people should talk to them like E-I, but we don't have enough public servants for that.

MG: Sri, where are the supports still needed, do you think, when you take a look at the health of the Canadian economy?

SRI THANABALASINGAM: Yeah, it's really those struggling sectors, the ones that are still impacted by the pandemic. There are still ongoing restrictions that's not allowing them to operate at their full capacity. So tourism and hospitality and no, those definitely support is required. You look at other hard hit businesses that that, you know, continue to feel the ramifications of the health crisis. They continue to require support. And with with people, a lot of self-employed gig economy workers, many of them were relying on CRB. And with the benefit expiring, it's going to be a trouble. It's going to cause them pain. And so I definitely agree with with our men there. But the supports that we were providing through the pandemic, there were very broad based. So they're definitely needed some narrowing. And so you know that that step was taken, but it is going to cause some pain in the short term.

MG: And yet there is a narrative. And I mean, neither of you are politicians, but it's a political narrative that these benefits need to end in part because of the cost of the benefits. So there was an Angus Reid poll done earlier this week, 41 percent of those surveyed thought it was time to end the CRB now. How worried should be should Canadians be about deficits and the costs of these programmes?

SRI THANABALASINGAM: Well, they were very expensive, right? We listed that out at the beginning of this programme. But the thing is, it's not just Canada that took out much of these fiscal supports. We saw that around the world, all the countries really spent a lot to support their economies, their citizens. And so we did see a debt burdens rise across the world. Canada came into this pandemic on fairly good standing and so did have the fiscal space to really increase its spending. And even when you look at Canada's fiscal standing now compared to other countries, it's really not that bad. And rating agencies after the budget reaffirmed Canada's standard in its in its debt or its debt rating itself. So in that regard, I don't think we're in a terrible, terrible spot right now.

MG: Armine, the other narrative that has emerged in terms of winding down these benefits is that you'll hear from some business owners and some organisations that represent business owners who say that they can't find workers because of the CERB and the CRB. What do you make of that narrative?

ARMINE YALNIZYAN: Well. You heard it from Jordan. You heard it from the horse's mouth. In the United States we have had a natural experiment where 25, like half of the states, 25 states cut income supports and 25 states kept them during the pandemic. Job growth was not appreciably different in either group. So it wasn't because of the income supports. In fact, job growth was slightly faster in states where they maintained purchasing power. And that really is the flip side of a focus on deficits and costs of programmes. Just a gentle reminder to our listeners that Canada's job headcount is back to where it was in February of 2020. Same number of jobs as we had before because we maintained purchasing power. We maintained the supply of money to keep businesses and households as whole as possible. In the United States, their five million jobs short of the February February 2020 level. Of course, there are bigger job market, but we actually kept the money the lifeblood of the economy flowing. So I think that really where it comes down to is this idea about what kind of systems do we have to stabilise purchasing power in extraordinary times.

MG: What's what's going on with the fact that people can't find workers? I mean, you'll see signs, you see signs in windows of stores saying, you know, employees wanted. People are offering paid sick leave when they would never would have, perhaps in past. What's going on there, really, then?

ARMINE YALNIZYAN: Okay. 80 percent of the job market is in the service sector, and the service sector got hardest hit when you open the door. You can mostly squeeze two people abreast through the door. We're trying to get 100 people through the door. At the same time, there's going to be some choke factor there. But the other thing is, just before the pandemic hit, in the months preceding the pandemic, we were seeing unemployment rates that we have not seen since 1972 in this country. Welcome to population ageing that was not put on pause during the pandemic. We are looking at more people exiting the labour market aged 55 and over than entering it aged 25 and under. And we are not bringing in as many immigrants because of the pandemic is a global pandemic, fewer people are travelling. So right now we have labour shortages. But if you think it's going to be over when the pandemic is finally fully over, think again. We are looking at- You talked about narratives, Matt. We've had a narrative for the last 40 years where there have been essentially too many people for every job, a narrative that is found founded on labour surpluses and that people are disposable. You can get a worker if you need a worker. The next 40 years is going to be the entire global north, not just Canada, but all the rich countries dealing with the fact that we all had a baby boom. And we're always going to be going through this process and we're all going to be competing for immigrants. We're going through 40 years of labour surpluses to at least 25, maybe 30 years of labour shortages. Get used to the idea that you can't find good help anymore.

MG: Sheree, there are a lot of people who are losing benefits. At the same time, we are seeing the cost of living, going up grocery prices up by something like, you know, four percent or even more than that. How difficult do you think this winter is going to be?

SRI THANABALASINGAM: Yeah, for people who lost out on those benefits and are going to see a decline in their income, it's going to be difficult. And if they're able to secure employment in one of these areas that are hiring, they'll replace some of that income. And so that could sustain their their living standards, too to through the winter. And that would that would take time even finding a new job if you had lost out or an old one or you've been unemployed for a very long time. It would take time. But during those months where that job search is taking place, as well as lost out on these, these benefits and you have inflation taking off where groceries are now becoming more expensive, it's going to cause some pain. There's no doubt about that.

MG: I mean, final narrative point on this. There are a lot of people way back when when this pandemic seemed to really get rolling that were hoping that something like the CERB would be one step along the path toward something like a universal basic income with a CRB now being wound down, is that dream dead?

ARMINE YALNIZYAN: No, I think what it does is really put the pressure on the government to do an easy review, which it has promised since 2008 and 16 when it first came to power and which has not been reviewed since the early 1990s when we saw four rounds of cuts absolutely decimate our only programme with automatic stabilisation. And that's what CERB was helping is the people that would not have qualified for EI, under any circumstance. Look, I think it's possible to snatch defeat out of the jaws of potential triumphs because I actually think in the wake of every plague, we see the economy razed, but that clears the ground for something new. We are poised on the brink of something new. And if I was a betting girl, I'd say we could expect an economic renaissance.

MG: What do you mean, an economic renaissance?

ARMINE YALNIZYAN: Well, if for no other reason, more people are valued. And so we build the economy from the bottom up because we understand the value of labour. And I think you know that plus the idea that the old model of globalisation has choked on the pandemic and we are now looking for more localised solutions, less just in time inventory, which is incredibly efficient but incredibly brittle. The idea that more people can work from home and more people can get health care and education services because of technology. I just think it's time to queue away is of greater wellness, innovation and collaboration that is going to spur untold good things. And of course, we can step in it. We wanted to, but I think the possibility is there.

MG: Dare I say, that almost sounds, almost, optimistic. We will leave it there because optimism is a good thing on a Friday. Thank you very much, both of you.

ARMINE YALNIZYAN: Thank you.

SRI THANABALASINGAM: Thank you.

MG: Armine Yalnizyan is and Atkinson fellow on the future of workers. She's an economist. She's also a columnist at the Toronto Star. Sri Thanabalasingam, is a senior economist at TD Bank. And your thoughts on this welcome. If those benefits have helped you and you're losing them this weekend, we'd love to hear from you. You can email us The Current at CBC.ca. That's it for The Current for this Friday, Q is up next on CBC Radio one. We're back on Monday and we will tell the story of Yusef Salaam. He was one of the so-called Central Park five wrongly convicted for a rape and assault in New York in 1989. In an interview that I did for the Vancouver Writers Festival this Sunday, we will hear about his time in prison and his exoneration. And again, you'll hear that Monday on The Current. Earlier in today's programme, we spoke about the persistent stigma around obesity. Stevey Hunter turned a very personal experience with that stigma into a play. It's called Fat Juliet, and it opens today in Dartmouth, Nova Scotia. It's the story of Romeo and Juliet, retold. Stevey Hunter, who also plays Juliet, gets our last word today. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. Have a great weekend and we'll see you again on Monday.

SOUNDCLIP

STEVEY HUNTER: I started writing this while I was in theatre school where I was really geared towards playing the funny sidekick, just smaller characters because I was being told that as long as I was a certain weight, people didn't want to see me fall in love on stage. So I started exploring OK, if I was to be Juliet, she'd be fat. What does that look like?

STEVEY HUNTER - AS JULIET: Nobody will love you if you're fat. You know, my mom told me that I always think about what my life would be like if I had a different body. Maybe then my life would be actually something worth writing about. Can anybody? Find me somebody to. Love from a young age, I was very active as a kid, but I would go to my doctor and they would be like, OK, we have to focus on you losing weight. And the only time I actually lost weight is I got really, really sick when I was a teen and was in the hospital for months and I lost 40 to 50 pounds. And then I had all of a sudden people complimenting me on my body, saying how good I looked when in reality I was almost dying. And when I started eating again, I put that weight back on. And so then there was also this next level of shame. It's just this really dysphoric way of looking at ourselves.

STEVEY HUNTER - AS JULIET: I hate wearing a bathing suit in public. My strategy is to just get in the water as quickly as possible so nobody can get a good look at me. My mom told me that if I lost 40 pounds, then I'd have boys lining up around the corner. I've never had a boyfriend before, so she's probably right. Oh, but I don't want to.

STEVEY HUNTER: So in this version, we're really seeing only the story from Juliet's lens, and we get to see every angle of her falling in love for the first time. And honestly, it has helped me fall in love with myself and accept my body for what it is. And yeah, it's a play that I wish my mom could have taken me to see when I was 16.

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