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The AIH Transcript For October 14, 2021

[hosts]Carol Off, Chris Howden[/hosts]

CAROL Off: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[music: theme]

Prologue

CO: Tonight:

CO: Unimaginable, but undeniable. A man with a bow and arrow killed five people in Kongsberg, Norway, yesterday -- our guest can't believe his neighbour died in the attack, steps from his own front door.

CH: Trial and errors. Thirty-four years after the man known as "Africa's Che Guevara" was assassinated, a longtime advocate for justice tells us he hopes the trial that began this week will be different from its predecessors.

CO: One-track mind. Investigators say there's no evidence that a train sparked the fire that all but wiped out the village of Lytton, BC -- but a woman whose house burned says she's not convinced.

CH: Tug of warlock. Christchurch City Council announces it will no longer pay an honorarium to the Wizard of New Zealand -- but our previous interviews with him suggest that may not be enough to break his spell.

CO: She's got a short fuse. And during her pandemic, downtime at chemist with a cannon had a blast, using it over and over again to determine which mediaeval gunpowder recipe produces the most bang for your buck.

CH: And... end of the rainbow. The sugar has hit the fan for a baker in the U.K. -- after the authorities inform him he can no longer serve his beloved cookies and cakes with illegal sprinkles.

CH: As It Happens, the Thursday edition. Radio that assumes he and his baked goods are now wearing a glazed expression.

[music: theme]

Part 1: Norway Bow And Arrow Attack, Lytton Fire Report, U.K. Bakery Illegal Sprinkles

Norway Bow And Arrow Attack

Guest: Thomas Nilsen

CH: The town of Kongsberg, Norway, is living through a nightmare. Yesterday, a man attacked people, seemingly at random, with a bow and arrow and other weapons. Five people are dead, and two others are seriously injured. Norwegian authorities say the attack appears to be, quote, "an act of terror". A Danish resident of the city has been arrested and has confessed, according to the police. The attack is the deadliest since the Utoya Island massacre a decade ago. Thomas Nilsen lives close to where the attack occurred. We reached him in Kongsberg, Norway.

CO: Thomas, how did you realize that something terrible was happening nearby?

THOMAS NILSEN: I was sitting indoors, and my front porch was open; the door was open. And, all of a sudden, I heard this yelling and screaming from a couple, and all of a sudden, I heard a gunshot. Not real gunshots, but like fireworks. And I thought that was strange. And then it got quiet for a bit. And then five minutes later, the same sound appeared around my house corner, like 25 yards away from my... my apartment. And this time, there was a lady, and she was, like, yelling and screaming like I have never, ever heard before. I mean, you see any movie or TV show. This was way beyond that.

CO: In what way? How would you describe the screaming?

TN: I would describe it as a desperate, anguished. It was like a death shriek of some sort. You know, my brain knew instantly that this person is going down. It was so piercing and gruelling. I mean, it was out of this world.

CO: What have you come to know was the source and the reason for that screaming?

TN: Oh, the thing is that shrieking lasted for like 30 seconds, 45 seconds, then it died off. And I thought, in my mind, this person is gone. I peeped around the corner because I was afraid there were, you know, guns and violence, and lots of people were trying to revive her. And then police was arriving. We are talking heavily weaponed police. Military was there, helicopters in the air, which you would never, ever believe could happen in peaceful Norway. I mean, come on, this place is about trolls and elves and rivers and beautiful scenery and all those things. It's not on our radar whatsoever.

CO: Kongsberg, you're... where you live is a small place, 26,000 people, right? So this is... you all know each other. And so, you... do you know the woman because she's... she's... she's one of the five people that was killed.

TN: I mean, I met her the same day. We had a chat. She was a bit bohemian. She was artistie. She was into ceramics. She was a butterfly in our street, and she was spreading love all over the place. I mean, this person, God, she was so warm and outgoing and caring. And it was really hard because there was big blood pool of her. And I thought in my mind, is this real? Is this person who I spoke to earlier this morning, and she was among us. And now, she's not. It's incomprehensible, you know?

CO: And she's now identified as one of the five people who were murdered yesterday.

TN: Yes, she is.

CO: And so, did you see anything? Did you see this man who was shooting arrows at people? Because I understand he went into people's houses and killed them?

TN: He killed altogether five people. And this first one was on my street or my corner. And then he went and broke into other people's homes and just killed them. It's incomprehensible, I tell you. I tell you, it's incomprehensible.

CO: Do you know this man? Do you know of him?

TN: Well, he was sort of... you know, there are always elements in a society which are a bit odd. And he was never threatening towards me or... some people say he was threatening, but on a low scale, I would say, you know? So he was a ticking bomb, in my view. He was a ticking, wandering bomb.

CO: But you say that this is strange to happen in Norway, a place of peace. And yet, you had an extremely deadly attack in Norway at the youth camp in Utoya, where there were 70... more than 70 people, young people --

TN: Seventy-seven, yes.

CO: Seventy-seven who were murdered and many others wounded. Because I know that it was extremely traumatic for Norwegians, is that bringing that period back for people?

TN: Of course it does. Of course it does. The thing is, we think that the police here are very professional. They are acting and trying to learn. But still, there seems to be a bit to go, OK? To put it that way. Because the way Norway operates is like everybody's trusting each other here. There's a very high level of trust, so we tend to forget that there could be elements in the society which could harm us. Give it one year or something like that. We'll be back to the same mentality that no, everybody is nice and everybody says hello, and happy go lucky. So we are not really able to take in that there are elements, like in the U.S. and Canada and other places, that are not just good forces.

CO: How are people in Kongsberg? How are they coping today?

TN: Oh, we're talking tons of flowers on the main mall. We are talking open churches. Lots of support. And I would say also disbelief... disbelief.

CO: Well, Thomas, I'm sorry that it's happened. I do appreciate, though, that you would tell us what you saw and heard. Thank you and goodnight to you.

TN: Goodnight to you as well. OK, take care, Carol.

CO: You too. Bye-bye.

TN: Bye-bye.

CH: Thomas Nilsen lives in Kongsberg, Norway, near where yesterday's deadly bow-and-arrow attack took place.

[music: industrial]

Lytton Fire Report

Guest: Edith Loring Kuhanga

CH: Former residents of Lytton, B.C. are still searching for answers about what started the fire that destroyed their village. And today, Canada's Transportation Safety Board poured cold water on one theory: that it was caused by a freight train. After an extensive investigation, the TSB said it couldn't find any links between railway operations and the fire -- and will not look into it any further unless new evidence comes to light. Edith Loring Kuhanga's home was destroyed in the fire. We reached her in Victoria, B.C.

CO: Edith, do you accept the TSB's conclusions that there just isn't any evidence that the fire was sparked by a train?

EDITH LORING KUHANGA: Not at all. Not at all. You know, where the fire started down on the end of Fraser Street. I live, on the other end, and… or I lived on the other end. it was right down at the train tracks. And where the fire spread along the train tracks and on that side of the side of the street before it started jumping across, and then carried on on the train tracks across the two rivers. How can they not say that CN was responsible?

CO: OK, what the TSB investigation says that they inspected the trains. They interviewed the crews. They pulled video footage from the train that was passing, and they're not able to find evidence of that ignition. So what do you think that they failed to look at?

ELK: I think that they failed to look at, like, sort of the history behind it. You know, talking to residents. I mean, there are a lot of people that have worked with the rails over the years. And they... they can tell you lots of stories where sparks have started from fires, and where they used to have water in front of the trains and after the trains during hot weather. So... so they failed to talk to the residents who've lived there for... for hundreds of years. And know, you know, what... what the situation is like in hot, hot weather. And that was... that was extremely hot weather, as we all know, three days leading up to the fire.

CO: In fact, it was the hottest day on record. It was 49 degrees, extraordinarily hot. And there were fires all over the place, right? To the north of you. So, couldn't there have been any number of ways the fire could have started other than the train?

ELK: I don't believe so. Not where the fire actually started. And the thing is that it was so hot, like you say, that it was like gas, right? That's why... that's why we lost our town in less than 25 minutes. Because it was like... it was like gasoline. No, I still feel that CN is... is partially responsible, if not totally responsible. I wasn't shocked that... that the report would come out in that way. You know, saying that there was no link between the railway operations and the fire. I wonder about... because they say that they will continue to participate in further investigations. And there is an investigation still be done by BC Wild Fire Service and the RCMP. But one thing I do know is that we're all still displaced out of Lytton 106 days later. Nobody is accepting the responsibility. And... and we have no end in sight.

CO: The images of Lytton after the fire, these are pictures seen around the world. It's just extraordinary to look at that, and just for anybody. I can't imagine what it was like to have your own house lost there. What's left now? When you've visited, what can you actually see in Lytton?

ELK: Um, so there's still a lot of rubble. You know, there's still a lot of the like say, you know, cement structures that are there, that are still standing. And the house that I lived in, there's the oil tank. Part of the fence is still there. Some of the trees are regrowing, but nothing, really. I mean, you know, all of it is basic rubble. What we want to do is we really want to get in there. We want to have access to our properties. And we still don't have the freedom to be able to get into the properties. And we want to get started on rebuilding. We want to be involved. We asked mayor and council last night to please involve the residents. There's four of them sitting at the table. They have a couple hundred people that want to get involved, and we're sitting on the sidelines. And they have to get some action happening.

CO: Why do you think they haven't at this point?

ELK: I think they're are waiting for the report to be released to see whether or not it was a corporate responsibility or whether it was going to be a provincial and federal government responsibility. And now that the report has been released, hopefully, they'll realize that they need to get involved.

CO: And that would make a difference to you, right? You mentioned how they're still investigating, and they believe the fire was human-caused. There could be criminal charges coming from that. So what difference would it make to actually say that it was the… that it was a train? I mean, if you want to just get on with it, someone's got to get this going, right?

ELK: Well, I think making a difference as to who would be accountable and who would be responsible for footing the bill, and in terms of rebuilding Lytton. And now that TSB is saying that the rail is not involved and has no linkage. We'll see what the court case, you know, the civil actions, the litigation coming forward actually happens, but that could drag on for years and years, right? And so time is of the essence, especially for our seniors. And I just want to see some action happening.

CO: Does it worry you that without knowing the effects of trains going through communities, given how we're going to have hot days like this, we're going to have these kinds of conditions, that there isn't a more thorough study as to what the trains might... might do? That this... Lytton might not be the first and last?

ELK: Yeah, I agree. It may not be the first and the last. However, you know, TSB, did you know the Ministry of Transportation and that all came out early on after the fire and... and made some recommendations or some policy changes about the way that trains should be acting in hot weather. And so hopefully, that'll make some procedural changes during really hot days. But, yes, we are not going to be the last community, unfortunately, in this unless there are some drastic changes with the way that rail operates, and as we move forward with climate change.

CO: Edith, we will leave it there, and I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

ELK: Thank you.

CH: We reached Edith Loring Kuhanga in Victoria. And you can find more on this story on our webpage at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[music: uke!!!]

U.K. Bakery Illegal Sprinkles

Guest: Rich Myers

CH: Seems like a safe assumption that there's nothing more innocent and universally delightful than brightly coloured sprinkles on a cupcake. But in the U.K., that would actually be a very dangerous assumption -- because in the UK, certain forms of that pleasing decoration are, in fact, illegal. A local bakery owner in Leeds found that out the hard way. And now, he can no longer sell his famous cookies and cakes -- leading to the kinds of scandalized headlines that inevitably include the word "Sprinklegate". Rich Myers is the owner of Get Baked. He joined us from Manchester, U.K.

Speaker 1: Rich, what are your customers saying about Sprinklegate?

RICH MYERS: Well, they're certainly supporting us. And the vast majority are very supportive. Obviously, there's… there's a couple of, I suppose, non-customers that are choosing to pick a fight with us. But on the whole, it's been overwhelmingly positive, and we're lucky to have a very, very loyal customer base.

CO: Well, tell us what happened? Because you put on Facebook, this is what you wrote, that no one can deny the turmoil that has ensued ever since that fateful visit from the man in a boring tie. So what is it that led to you being told that you had illegal sprinkles on your cookies?

RM: Well, like I said, we just... exactly what I wrote. We got a visit one day. We were open as normal. And along came a man from Trading Standards, which is the people that tell you when you've been naughty. And he said you're being investigated because you're selling illegal sprinkles, and that's the first we knew about it, the day he came in.

CO: These are sprinkles that are red, right? So it's not the sprinkles, it's the colour of the sprinkles that's the... that's the issue?

RM: I believe it's one of the e numbers that's in the sprinkles, which is allowed in the U.K., but I think it's only allowed inside candied cherries. So cocktail cherries, not allowed inside sprinkles.

CO: OK, so this is erythrosine or something. That sounds awful.

RM: Yeah.

CO: And it's in... so they... so you're allowed to have it in your... your cocktail cherries, in your candied cherries, but you can't have it on your sprinkles?

RM: Yeah. Which to me is a bit silly because a cocktail cherry to me is what you put on top of an ice cream sundae. You know, a classic banana split or a knickerbocker glory is topped with a glossy cherry, which is often eaten by kids -- so kind of the same thing to me. But, yeah, that's... that's the case.

CO: What are they saying is the problem with the red colour?

RM: Well, the EU regulations say that it's been found to cause hyperactivity in children.

CO: Ugh-huh. Is this the first you've heard of it?

RM: That is the first I've heard of it. And I'm not... listen, I'm not a scientist. And if that's what they say, then I believe them. I think the only argument I would have, and as I said, you know, I don't come from an educated background in this regard. But the only thing I would say is, I think there's lots of things that, you know, result in hyperactivity in kids that are legal, such as a lot of global corporations that sell lots of fizzy drinks and soda that contains caffeine and a lot of e numbers. And I think that's probably more of a problem than the sprinkles, to be fair. But, you know, that's just my opinion.

CO: OK, so now are these contraband sprinkles that you bought on the black market?

RM: No, absolutely not. So they're imported from America, but we didn't even import them. We just buy them from England. You can buy them... you can buy them in loads of places. We buy them from London. We just buy them from an American food store. So, you know, they're being let into the country. We didn't buy them on the black market at all. You can buy them very easily.

CO: So how did they trace this to you? How did the man with the boring tie discover that you had this?

RM: I have no idea. Somebody... somebody reported us.

CO: [chuckling] Somebody snitched on you for your sprinkles?!

RM: Yeah, somebody snitched on us for the sprinkles. Yeah.

CO: What do you think of that? I mean, really?

RM: I thought it was a little bit pathetic. But in hindsight, they've done me a massive favour because I'm currently speaking to a Canadian radio station. And I've also spoken to New Zealand, Australia, America and pretty much every city in the U.K. So I guess really, you know, it's kind of backfired for them, hasn't it?

CO: So... so the man in the boring tie, did he tell you where you could get sprinkles that were legal?

RM: Well, you can buy sprinkles all over the country, but they're not very good. There's a big difference between American sprinkles and the sprinkles that are readily available in supermarkets over here. That the ones you get over here aren't very good. The colours run, they're not vibrant, they don't bake well. And this is why a lot of bakers use... I mean, we're not the only people using these sprinkles. There's large bakeries that have got a much bigger business than me with many outlets that use these sprinkles, and they have been for years.

CO: So you think the sprinkle police are going to be busy?

RM: I think the sprinkle police are going to be very busy, and it's a shame that we've been the first to feel the wrath of the sprinkle police, but we've certainly felt the wrath, that's for sure.

CO: What do you put these sprinkles on? What kind of treats?

RM: We put them on, so we put them on a cookie, which we call a raspberry glazed doughnut cookie. And the idea of the cookie is that it's like a doughnut. So, it's meant to be like a classic American-style doughnut with the vibrant sprinkles that you would see on a cartoon. And obviously, it's difficult to sell that cookie without the sprinkles, but it's our best-selling cookie. So it's kind of difficult because we've got a business with only a few items. We do a few things, but we do them very well. So when you only sell four cookies and one of them, you can't sell anymore, it's kind of difficult.

CO: And you have something called a "Birthday Bruce".

RM: Yeah. So we sell a chocolate cake called Bruce, which is very well-known. It's... it's a 24-layer chocolate cake. It's very large. And we do a birthday version of Bruce where if it's your birthday, we will put Sprinkles on... on Bruce for free. But obviously, we won't be able to do that anymore.

CO: [chuckling] A 24-layer cake. I think the least of your problems with this are the sprinkles [chuckling] when it comes to kids and sugar.

RM: Well, I mean, that's... that's obvious. I think that that's... that's a great point. I mean, that's exactly right. If you... if you…. if you're buying a 24-layer cake, and I'm not saying you should have all that cake every day because obviously you shouldn't, but if you buy a 24-layer cake, then I think the sprinkles are definitely the least of... the least concerning aspect of that if it's going to be eaten by a child, that's for sure. Because it takes most adults three days to eat one slice. So, yeah.

CO: So will Birthday Bruce be sprinkleless in the future?

RM: Birthday Bruce is going to be... unless we can find a replacement, which is looking doubtful, Birthday Bruce is going to be a thing of the past. I think we might have to think of something else to adorn Bruce with, but it doesn't look like it's going to be with sprinkles at the minute.

CO: All right. OK, Rich, we'll leave it there. It's good to talk to you. Thanks.

RM: Thank you very much.

CO: Bye.

CH: Rich Myers is the owner of Get Baked in Leeds, U.K. He joined us from Manchester, which -- for helpful reference -- is about 48,398,000 cupcake sprinkles laid end-to-end northwest of Reading. And you can find more on that story on our website: www.cbc.ca/asithappens.

[music: tango waltz]

FOA: Wizard of New Zealand

CH: Last time we spoke with the Wizard of New Zealand, he informed us he wasn't going anywhere. At the time, reports of his retirement were swirling. False ones, it turned out. But it appears no amount of wizardry can best bureaucracy. And now, Christchurch City Council says it has decided to stop paying Ian Brackenbury Channell to provide public acts of wizardry. The Wizard's final cheque will be forthcoming in December. But if you're assuming that means Mr. Channell will shave the beard and stash the staff, we'd like to dis-spell that notion. Our most recent interview made it pretty clear he's unlikely to do either any time soon. Here's what he told As It Happens last year -- about where the rumours of his retirement had come from.

SOUNDCLIP

IAN BRACKENBURY CHANNELL: It's put out by all of my enemies, of which I have millions, and they're all bureaucrats.

PETER ARMSTRONG: What?!

IBC: For me to retire because they can't stand the fact they’ve got a wizard here because nobody ever wanted a wizard in authority. People like the Wizards. But I can assure you, scientists, priests, academics, bureaucrats all hate wizards unless they’re on film or in a book, then they’re OK.

PA: And yet, the city of Christchurch pays you money to be a wizard every year, so not the entire bureaucratic institution.

IBC: A long time ago, they made it pretty clear that they wanted it because I brought the tourists in great numbers.

PA: Sure!

IBC: So they wanted to keep me in the city, so they gave me an honorarium. So it's not a payment. It's like an artist in residence or a pirate in residence. I’m in residence, not exactly not exactly on a payroll.

PA: For Canadian listeners, I just want to go through... because you say the institutions don't like you, Wizard. But you've received the Queen's Service Medal for your wizarding duties.

IBC: Ah! Now the monarchy does like us, you see.

PA: Well --

IBC The monarchy is different. The monarchy and the church, those institutions, the old ones, they like wizards. They’ve always enjoyed magic. [PA chuckles] There's also magic in the monarchy and in the church, you know? The official church, not the born-agains. The big stuff, the top stuff.

PA: So, hold on a second. The news is international. Everybody's talking about the great wizard is finally retiring. How has... how has this... this story hatched itself and travelled around the world?

IBC: Ah, the last 20... for 20 years now, the City Council has been telling people that I've been tired because they're so embarrassed by my presence. No, he’s not here. He’s retired. No, he’s gone to live somewhere else. [PA chuckles] All the bureaucrats are telling people I’ve retired or left. It's because they didn't want to admit I exist because I'm so popular everywhere. People come and see me from all over the world. They wave and even the trams. I’m mobbed by tourists in the summertime. They come together like flies. But the Council being bureaucrats! No, no, no, no. Nothing to see here. No, no, he's disappeared. In fact, I've been cancelled by the bureaucrats, but I'm still here.

CH: The Wizard of New Zealand, speaking with guest host Peter Armstrong in August, 2020. This month, Christchurch City Council upped the ante and decided to remove Ian Brackenbury Channell from its payroll.

CO: [chuckle] A cancelled wizard.

CH: Ah, yeah, and I can imagine that when he got that news, he did a lot of cursing, and I don't mean swearing. [CO chuckles]

[music: indie rock “Rubber Duckie”]

Part 2: Thomas Sankara Trial, Pandemic Cannon Testing

Thomas Sankara Trial

Guest: Aziz Fall

CH: He promoted land reforms, literacy and vaccinations -- and outlawed female genital mutilation. But his critics accused him of detaining political opponents and suppressing dissent. Thirty-four years ago this week, the man known as "Africa's Che Guevara" was assassinated -- along with 12 others. And now, more than three decades later, 14 men are on trial in Burkina Faso for the murder of Thomas Sankara. It's not the first time there's been a trial. But advocates for justice hope this time might be different. Because this time, the man accused of orchestrating Mr. Sankara's killing is no longer running the country. Aziz Fall is the Coordinator of the International Campaign for Justice for Sankara. We reached him in Montreal.

CO: Mr. Fall, what answers are you hoping this new trial of those who are accused of assassinating Thomas Sankara? What do you hope it might yield?

AZIZ FALL: Well, you know, first, we are not accustomed to have such trials in Africa. But with the overthrow of the Compaoré regime, you know, a new political regime has allowed the case to be investigated. And we are hoping that these people, even if they are tried in absentia, we hope that all these people will reveal the truth about the size of this plot and why it was done. And then, that justice will be pronounced.

CO: But given that the main defendant, Blaise Compaoré, is not there, in fact, he is boycotting this trial. He's in Ivory Coast. What can... what do you think is the best that can come out of this, given that you don't have him in at the trial?

AF: Myself, I have said that as long as he is not in this trial room, I will not attend. This has been why I'm not in Ouagadougou, but all my lawyers are there. But this is nothing. I mean, he will be judged in absentia, and if he's found guilty, he will be condemned. Today, there is a warrant of extradition against him and many of his followers. So if he's condemned, his situation is just going worse. I think he has a great chance to show before the history that he's not coward, as we used to call him, and that he can, at least at the last minute, come.

CO: Just a bit of background for people who don't know this... his part of the history of Burkina Faso. This is... this man who was assassinated along with a dozen others, that he was called Africa's Che Guevara. He was somebody that was changing things in your country, and... and he, this person who is... we were just talking about, who became the president, Blaise Compaoré, he was a very close friend of Mr. Sankara. And so what do you think happened? What's the theory as to how this mass assassination actually happened?

AF: Well, it happened because the building of this kind of revolutionary process was actually going counter-clock with the whole neoliberal agenda with the World Bank and the IMF and, you know, the revamping of the sovereign state in the whole African region. So, you know, Sankara was going against the tide. He was with the peasantry, he was with women. Managed to do in three years, amazing things in terms of food sufficiency, you know, be a self-reliant economy. He gives immense power to the peasantry and the women. And he was actually disturbing the neocolonial path of France in the subregion. And so, you know, your listeners need to know this is not a local plot. It’s something that had been masterminded and supported internationally and regionally. That's why these people have chosen Blaise Compaoré’s and Charles Taylor’s and all these folks to destabilize. So they managed to stay for more than 20 years in power, until a new generation who had learned about Sankara came and managed to overthrow Blaise Compaoré by this revolutionary upheaval. He was saved by France and sent in Ivory Coast. And in Ivory Coast, you know, the people in charge are in power because of his help. And that's how he managed to be near Burkina Faso and and controlling and helping destabilizing the country.

CO: Just... as this trial itself is to take place in Burkina Faso. It's extraordinary, isn't it, that 14 men are on trial for Thomas Sankara's murder and for the others who were murdered at the same time. There are those who worry that this in itself, this trial, could be destabilizing for Burkina Faso. Do you worry about that?

AF: No, to the contrary. This is actually the thing that will really help healing the wounds, that will help reconciliation in that country. Because, you know, these are vestiges of the 20th century. And this is why, you know, I attended just yesterday and the day before, the counter summit in France, where President Macron has called some of our African leaders and young folks, you know, to... to revamp his foreign policy. And we had to held a counter summit to say, well, bilateral relations should not be discussed in such manner. It should be discussed by sovereign African states. And I trust that... that the issue of this trial will be an immense, immense relief for the whole region. France did actually... was based on Macron, and we have to thank him in a way, he has released and declassified and submitted documents related to the case. Clearly, many, many things have been withdrawn from those boxes, unfortunately. So we are still calling for France to be more open and to release fully the document. Even though it is something that is upsetting for everyone, but it will be very refreshing for a new France and a new foreign policy of France.

CO: These are events that are going to take you back 34 years in your country, Burkina Faso. And there, though he was as you... we've talked about much-celebrated, President Sankara was also accused of... of committing crimes, of... Amnesty International said that he had his political prisoners tortured. And so, how is he... how is he regarded? There’s a whole generation that's grown up without him. How is he regarded in Burkina Faso?

AF: Well, they’re real trial. They were popular trails where convicted people have been condemned, indeed. There were also some abuse from the CDR, which are, you know, an example of soldiers, you know, trying to play the Cuban scenario in our countries. But truly, this was really marginal compared to the scope of the Sankara regime. And this is why he's an icon for most of the Africans, Sankara is, you know, Che Guevara of Africa. he’s renowned because of the fact he was a man of integrity. He has never touched any money from his state. You know, he died as a poor man, and he died young. And this may be also very helpful when you die a martyr. You know, you're kind of an iconic figure. So we are not in a position of embellishing what he has done. I think what he has done is enough without having to embellish him. He had an immense service to Africans.

CO: Mr. Fall, we will leave it there. And we'll be following what happens in this trial. I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

AF: Thank you very much.

CH: Aziz Fall is the Coordinator of the International Campaign for Justice for Sankara. He taught political science and international development at McGill University. We reached him in Montreal.

[music: vocalization]

Edmonton Confectionery Robbed

CH: On the sign outside Kathy Prosser's Edmonton candy store, "Be-a-Bella", it says it's a place full of "delicious and wonderful things." But things haven't been very wonderful there lately. Multiple break-ins have resulted in thousands of dollars in damage. Yesterday, Ms. Prosser explained what's been going on.

SOUNDCLIP

KATHY PROSSER: It sort of started for us at the end of July. Somebody broke our candy window and the front door window, so we replaced that probably three weeks ago. And then, it started. It was insane. Somebody broke the replaced door window, and they... and they shattered the front gift store window. We blocked that off. They broke two of our side windows. They... they kicked in our door. They tried to kick in our door, and I can show you the footprints on the door. They tried using five rocks to smash the door open. They've... then they came back. And every time they'd come in before, they've stolen something. But this last time, they just broke the candy window again with two giant rocks. [a phone rings] It's just utter destruction, and we just can't keep up with it. There have been six in total, five in the last 12 days. Five... I'm calling them attacks because that's what they are. Five in 12 days. So in the beginning, it's always been, like, he's taken our float. He's taken our... our speaker. He's taken iPads. He's taken tools like, you know, like a drill or something. He's taken our cash box, our extra float that we have. And this last time, we found he shattered the window for two jars of candy. We just... we just finished calculating all the stuff that's missing. Two jars of candy. That window behind me is like a $2,000 window by the time you fix the... we have a special covering to protect the candy. And the candy… oh, all the destruction of the candy on the ground. When you add up all the windows, all the extra stuff we've had to do, the stuff that he's destroyed, like when he shattered the gift store window, that glass, I don't know if you've seen it? It explodes. This last time, the glass shattered all over the chocolate bars, so we've had to throw away tons of chocolate bars. And then you add in all the bars, and the security and the just the repairs, like the locksmith guy has been here a number of times repairing the lock. We had to fortify the door because he's nearly kicked through the door. We haven't kept exact total, but it's just like money is flowing out of here. It's... it's got to be over $10,000... $10,000 to $15,000. Yeah, we've had a number of pictures of this guy coming in, and... but he's always covered, like he's always got a hat on or a hood on or something, or he... he's... it's not his first rodeo. He's done this kind of stuff before. Well, we've had... we've had how many officers, 15 different officers come in to investigate each crime. We've had CSI people. On his first break-in, we got blood. We have fingerprints. We have... we have another set of fingerprints. We've got a shoe print. We've got extra thing... like, we've got all kinds of stuff. You know, it's in processing. All of those things take long. And they're looking. But... but they do keep coming in and telling us to basically reinforce our security, which I mean, the other day, it was nuts in here. We don't want to be a fortress. We're... we're a candy store.

CH: That was Kathy Prosser speaking with CBC Edmonton yesterday about the rash of break-ins at her candy store.

[music: jazz]

Pandemic Cannon Testing

Guest: Dawn Riegner

CH: Some recipes are forgiving. A little more, a little less. Maybe a substitution. It's fine. Others require a bit more precision. And a fair bit of protective equipment. And maybe some medics on standby. That's the kind of recipe Dawn Riegner started trying her hand at when the pandemic slowdown freed up some time in her schedule. While others were working on their sourdough, Professor Riegner was mixing up small-batch gunpowders -- the kind used to fire a cannon -- with only medieval recipes as her guide. Professor Riegner teaches chemistry at the U.S. Military Academy at West Point. She and her colleagues on the gunpowder project recently published their findings. We reached her in West Point, New York.

CO: Dawn, what's it like to be up close and personal with a cannon shooting projectiles?

DAWN RIEGNER: [laughing] Well, it's very exciting, I must say. It's something you can experience visually and audibly, and you can feel it in your gut. It's one of those kind of adventures.

CO: but this isn't your usual area of study, right? How did you come to be experimenting with medieval gunpowder?

DR: Yeah, my background is in analytical chemistry, and I am mostly a person who looks at looking to develop detection for explosives. So I've always been interested in explosives and finding them to help our soldiers, of course. But my friend over in history, Cliff Rogers, he's professor of history there. He is the one who has been looking at different armaments from the medieval time period. And he had a couple of questions come up upon his own research, and he was trying to find out why it is that the gunners or the master gunners from that time period changed the recipe so often with the gunpowder. And he asked me, he said, do you think this is something we can look at using chemistry? And I said, we sure can. You know, let's do it! Let's... let's test all of them. So… [chuckling] we've gotten a start, but we haven't quite finished all of our analysis yet.

CO: And you had some time because of COVID.

DR: Yes.

CO: And... and you had this great big place at West Point to experiment with, right?

DR: Exactly. That was a huge benefit. It sounds like maybe the only benefit of COVID was the time that we had to get out and do this kind of work. And I was lucky enough that my daughter was doing online classes, so she was home. And she's a chemical engineer and was very interested in studying the thermodynamics of the gunpowders as well. So that was great we could work together and not have to mask up as much as, you know, when other folks around. So that really helped a lot.

CO: So you and your daughter started to cook up explosives?

DR: That's correct. All gunpowder, and then a variety of ingredients. So there's the three main ingredients, and then the gunners from the medieval period put these interesting things into their recipes like vinegar and varnish and brandy and several other things. And we wanted to know, to help Professor Rogers answer his questions. You know, we wanted to know, did they add these things to increase the amount of energy? Or was it some of the reason? Was there a preservative idea in mind or something to help them be more transportable, you know, without disintegrating? There were several things we wanted to look at.

CO: Well, there must have been a good reason. Otherwise, why would you waste a good brandy?

DR: Oh, exactly! [laughing] That's right. We didn't have to use too much of it. But as with any chemical that we bring in the lab, once it's opened in the lab, it's non-edible, non-drinkable, so [chuckle] it quickly became one of those items.

CO: [laughs] OK, so... so you weren't --

DR: Not usable. [laughing]

CO: Right. So you weren't just mixing up batches of very interesting drinks, but you were actually firing projectiles, right?

DR: Correct. Correct. Yes. Yes. So some of the work was done in the lab. A lot... the majority of the work was done in the lab where we were trying to get a hold on how much energy is potentially available from the recipes. But then, there was another cadet. Actually, he became a lieutenant during this whole process. He had a canon of medieval canon diagram. And he had a foundry down in North Carolina recreate that canon from the... from the specs of the canon. And they were able to drill a canon that mimicked this one from that time period. So we... with the... all of us, all five of us, we all agreed what better thing to do than to go out into the field, put our gunpowder recipes in this cannon that was made and test it on real cannonballs? So that's what we did next.

CO: [chuckling] OK, so test it and then, like, stand back while... while finding out if this works?

DR: Absolutely, but we were all wearing our flak jackets and our helmets. And we, you know, we had safety people who are armour officers out there on the field as well as, you know, emergency people just in case. But none of us were injured, thankfully. And the cannon fired just beautifully. I mean, for something you know, that had never been seen, you know, as far as I know, you know, since... since the 15th century. So it's very exciting.

CO: What did you... what did you... what did you learn as to what was the most effective kind of gunpowder to use in this gun?

DR: There are several different ways gun powders are mixed. Sometimes they're... they're pressed in a press and formed into a disc. Other times, they're broken up and pushed through a scene, you know, to try to get different-sized particles. But we really found that when it was just a powder crushed up, we crushed it up in a mortar and pestle. So the powder form seemed to give us the higher energies. And we found that the ratio of saltpetre to charcoal was really important. And then, the sulphur needed to be about three times less than the saltpetre. So that gave us the most powerful, but that... that's not necessarily what these gunners wanted. Because the more powerful it is, actually, the more dangerous it is for them to handle and to transport and to use in their weapons. So they had to tweak it. They had to tweak their ratios. And... and we see, as we looked at our study over the time period, that they honed in on a particular ratio, and it was able to still give them pretty good power. But they had to use less of the most expensive ingredient, which was not the brandy. [chuckle] It was actually the saltpetre or the potassium nitrate.

CO: But you also answer the question, the burning question, as to what chemists would do with… if they had time on their hands?

DR: Well, yes, get out there and fire a cannon! [laughing] It is the best thing when you have time on your hands!

CO: It's not all Breaking Bad.

DR: Correct! [CO chuckles] Oh, you got that right! I can't tell you how many times I've had cadets ask me that. You know, hey, do you know how to make drugs? Nope! [chuckle]

CO: OK.

DR: I'd much rather blow things up. Yeah.

CO: [both chuckle] Dawn, it's good to talk to you. Thanks.

DR: Nice talking with you too, Carol.

CO: Bye.

DR: Bye-bye.

CH: Dawn Riegner is a professor of chemistry at the U.S. Military Academy at West Point. She was in West Point, New York. And you can find more on this story on our webpage at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[music: hip-hop beat]

Barkley Five-Hole

CH: Inside the NBA is a lot of things. Frequently hilarious. Sometimes informative. Occasionally offensive. Never boring. The postgame show for basketball broadcasts on TNT features host Ernie Johnson with former NBA-ers Kenny Smith, Charles Barkley, and Shaquille O'Neal. They analyze basketball. Some of the time. But they also hurl wild insults at each other, make outrageous bets, and routinely engage in such chaotic exchanges that viewers could be forgiven for feeling bewildered. Kind of how Charles Barkley must've felt when he appeared as a guest on last night's inaugural broadcast of NHL on TNT -- and discovered he'd be taking shots from the Great One himself.

SOUNDCLIP

LIAM MCHUGH : Let's get the pads here for Barkley. You're going to be putting these on.

CHARLES BARKLEY: OK.

LM: If you can figure… yep, there you go!

CB: This is something I've never done before.

LM: You have the glove, the blocker.

WAYNE GRETZKY: I honestly don't even know how you put those pads on. [CB chuckles]

CB: OK. Don't I have to put the skates on before I put the pads on?

LM: I think we're going to probably go without the skates.

WG: I don’t think we need the pads.

LM: We’ll get this. No, no, it’s all going on.

WG: OK, but its going to take 15 minutes.

CB: How do you hold a stick with these things, though? [laughing all around]

LM: Turn that blocker around! We’re going to figure all this out. There it is!

CB: Well, how do you hold it, though? Hey, Rick, what's the five-hole?

RICK TOCCET: He'll show you.

LM: I hope he doesn't go too high on the five-hole.

RT: I need to stick.

CB: Now I got I got advice today from Derick Payne.

WG: That's the five-hole.

CB: He told me to show you the five-hole being taken away.

LM: Wow! You got to stretch out though.

CB: But I didn’t know what the five-hole was.

LM: Between the legs. There you go!

CB: Oh, between the legs?

LM: Here we go, shot one.

RT: Oooo! Top cheese.

CH: Former NBA star Charles Barkley, taking shots from Wayne Gretzky during last night's NHL on TNT broadcast -- and learning about five-holes the hard way.

[music: surf rock]

Part 3: Austrian Cave Poop, Myriam Sarachik Obit

CBS Gay Blood Donations

CH: Glenndl Miguel had mixed feelings about his recent blood donation. As a gay man, Canadian Blood Services has barred him from giving blood for years -- a policy criticized as discriminatory. But now, the organization is taking its first steps toward allowing gay and bisexual men who have sex with men to donate -- opening up blood plasma donations in London, Ontario and Calgary. Here's what Mr. Miguel -- who's a paramedic -- told CBC Calgary about his decision to take part in the project.

SOUNDCLIP

GLENNDL MIGUEL: On one level, it was a bit of a personal goal and triumph for me as a gay man who's been unable to donate since I came out. And it balanced with the values that I had of trying to move towards more equity in the donation process while trying not to be a part of a system that continued to discriminate towards members of the LGBTQ2+ community. At a professional level, it was nice to be a part of a system again that is helping out people like my patients who need these kinds of products from plasma and blood. And it was a pleasure to see that there was progress being made, so... so unexpectedly from CBS about this sort of work. And it provides hope for people like myself who have been wanting to donate for a long time but haven't been able to. It's not going as far as many of us would want, and we understand that CBS is trying to make up a proposal to Health Canada by the end of the year for a full-on behaviour-based screening for everyone and for every blood product, which is a very good goal to go for. But it still brings up the... the histories of discrimination towards LGBTQ2+ communities, and especially now with this and... and figuring out how we can move forward to include individuals who have maybe more complex situations in terms of their identity, especially those who are trans and what the definition for trans is for CBS would be. It'll be interesting to see how they proceed with that.

CH: Paramedic and blood donor Glenndl Miguel speaking to CBC Calgary.

[music: glassy guitar]

Austrian Cave Poop

Guest: Frank Maixner

CH: If I asked you to think about what you and a European salt miner living more than 2,500 years ago might have in common, a love of cheese and alcohol might not be the first thing to pop into your mind. But in a new study this week, researchers say they have found "the first molecular evidence" that people in Iron Age Europe were consuming blue cheese and beer. And the methodology behind this discovery was as fascinating as the study's conclusions: researchers made the finding by looking at very old human poop, preserved in an Austrian salt mine. Microbiologist Frank Maixner is the lead author of the paper published yesterday in "Current Biology." We reached him in Bolzano, Italy.

CO: Frank, we know that archeologists have found many things in these old salt mines in the Alps. It’s a very famous site. But did you know that there were going to be interesting toilets in there as well?

FRANK MAIXNER: I was not aware of this before we started this project, actually. I knew from the site. But, yeah, this paleofeces, how we call them, they went… so far, not very much investigated.

CO: And so... OK, this paleofeces, [chuckling] the poop that you found from…. that’s thousands of years old. How has it come to be so preserved?

FM: It's a very particular site. Since we have these high salt concentrations, all organic material gets rapidly desiccated, so all water gets removed. In addition, then there's really all the year, a constant temperature of eight degrees in this mining workings, and this preserves organic material perfectly. And in addition, other biomolecules like DNA or proteins as we use them are also well preserved. And this over millennia.

CO: And so you and your colleagues are discovering that there are these feces in this cave, was this... I mean, not many people get excited finding poop. [FM chuckles] Was this... was this a great discovery for you?

FM: Definitely, this... for me, it's very surprising how much information is kept in such specimens. Of course, it's an archeological... it's a cultural heritage also. All what is mummified there or what is... what is found there belongs to this site. And for me, it's very surprising how much information you can still extract from such a simple.

CO: among the information you've extracted from these feces [ both chuckling] is a knowledge that they... they were eating something... well, had a diet quite similar to us, possibly something like cheese and beer?

FM: Mm-Hmm. Yeah, that’s true. That... that was in addition... so we had four samples in total. And... and one of them, we were quite lucky, so there was indications, molecular indications for the consumption of blue cheese and beer. We had here this kind of indirect, let's say, evidence since we saw high amount of fungal DNA or fungis, which are currently still used for food fermentation. And they could... they looked quite similar to those ones. And... and we could, out of this finding, then conclude that they ate cheese and they drank beer.

CO: Is this the first evidence you have or anyone has that this... this kind of a diet was consumed in this part of... of Europe in prehistory?

FM: There were other evidence already. So, archeologists found, for example, vessels which they assumed that they were used for maybe beer production, then maybe grains, malted grains. And so, there were evidences already that this was done. But what was more surprising was also the cheese. So it is not... the cheese was not present at the time. But for us, surprising was that there was a fungi used, which is more for flavouring the cheese. So it was not only to ferment it, but it's also to flavour it. And this was quite a sophisticated, let's say, way of making... making this... this food product even better. And this... this is something I wouldn't have assumed that this was already present at the time.

CO: How similar would their Roquefort cheese have been to what we have today?

FM: Hmmm. [chuckle] That's a very difficult question. Maybe here it's important to understand... so there's this Roquefort cheese we know also from France, but ours is a little bit more similar... also, the strain we found to the ones used... which are used also for the gorgonzola, for example. This is also famous Italian cheese. So it's a little bit different to the actual Roquefort cheese, but still a blue cheese and still salty and has a particular flavour.

CO: This is also…. these salt mines… these are... this is the oldest known salt mine in the world, isn't it?

FM: Yeah, together with one in Iran, which is also used, it one of the oldest. And it is for sure the oldest which are still continuously used. So it's still nowadays in use, so they still harvest salt out of this mine. And this was... this is definitely exceptional.

CO: And so, what else? Because they would have access to a tremendous... tremendous amount of salt. They also had probably very good fermentation and preservation of foods, right? Were they using... were they using the same kinds of methods to... to preserve foods and make foods with the salt as we have now?

FM: Yeah, this is what we assume also. So, they not only dig out the salt and then they maybe traded the salt. They definitely did also. But they used this also and close by to... to use this for... for fermentation in this case. Also, to use it for preservation. So there's other excavations showing that there were really meat industries outside the entrance of these mains where they preserved hams, where they preserved those sorts of meat and by salting the meat. And this... this was also nearly already in an industrial scale, so we assume that this was not only produced for them, maybe they also traded these products.

CO: I'm just trying to imagine this salt miner 3,000 years ago who is having a bowel movement in the back of the cave. If he had known that 3,000 years later, you would be fascinated with his feces. [both laughing] I wonder if he could have imagined that?

FM: Yeah, luckily he didn't know it. I'm not sure. Finally, it's something which... which is also, for me, initially, it sounded weird, let's say. But I see it more really like an information source which can give us insights into the dietary history, but also can give us insight into the gut microbiome, something which is very also discussed currently in medical sciences. So we can see here and we can reconstruct those microbiome structures of these ancient people and compare them to modern, for example, microbiomes. And this is also very... it has also relevance, let’s say, for medical science.

CO: Little... little did he know that he was an open book back there in the cave, [laughing] leaving you all that information.

FM: [laughing] That's true. That's true.

CO: Frank, it's good to talk to you. Thank you.

FM: Thanks to you and all the best.

CO: Thank you.

CH: Frank Maixner is coordinator at the Eurac Research Institute for Mummy Studies in Bolzano, Italy.

[music: ambient]

MMIWG Mother COVID

CH: Willie Starr is the son of Bernice Catcheway. He spoke with CBC Manitoba's Erin Brohman about his mother's ongoing battle with COVID-19.

[music: world music]

Myriam Sarachik Obit

Guest: Eugene Chudnovsky

CH: Myriam Sarachik devoted her career to understanding nature. Specifically molecular magnetism. And maybe she was drawn to the work because of her own magnetism. She had the kind of charisma one doesn't always find among fundamental physicists. And she maintained it despite facing decades of adversity in a field dominated by men. Myriam Sarachik died last week. She was 88 years old. She spent her career studying things most of us couldn't begin to understand, but she was convinced that the principle of trying to understand was universal.

SOUNDCLIP

MYRIAM SARACHIK: People have been fascinated by how the world is put together, how the universe is put together, how much... how well... you know, the whole concept of electrons is... is one... I mean, electrons were actually not found specifically until not so long ago. And now we can look at things atom by atom. Now, that's fascinating. But the other aspect, of course, is that it's changed our lives. I mean, I'm interested because of the fundamental aspects of it. I find them fascinating. But this is the... the core of knowledge that ultimately leads to controlling things in order to do things for you. Everything you use, I mean transistors, radios, televisions, MRIs, it all comes from that knowledge base that has been amassed little by little, and which makes us understand how nature works.

CH: The late physicist Myriam Sarachik, speaking with fellow City University of New York professor Frances Degen Horowitz in 2005. Eugene Chudnovsky was another of Ms. Sarachik's colleagues at CUNY and her longtime friend. He's a Distinguished Professor of Physics there, and we reached him in Westchester County, New York.

CO: Professor Chudnovsky, first of all, I'm sorry for the loss of your friend.

EUGENE CHUDNOVSKY: Thank you.

CO: When you hear her, when you hear Myriam Sarachik talk about that, and so clearly about things, she was so excited about the nature of electrons. What comes to your mind?

EC: Well, this is the Myriam that I knew. Myriam was never interested in the applications of science, even though she understood, of course, the importance of application. But her interest has always been in fundamental science. She was fascinated with the secrets of nature, and she wanted to uncover them.

CO: And what was she like to work with?

EC: Well, Myriam was one of the most intelligent people I ever met in my life, and I have met many people, scientists, some of them Nobel laureates, very famous people. And I should say that Myriam was one of the wisest and most intelligent people ever.

MS: She, as a girl, she survived the Holocaust. It's an extraordinary story she's written about of her own escape with her family. And she found success in a male-dominated field. And it wasn't that they made an opening for her, right? She fought her way into the field of physics against resistance. And I just wanted to play a bit of what she had to say back in 2005. She talked about the things that she had overcome. And we'll just listen to Myriam once again.

SOUNDCLIP

MS: I didn't fit anyway because I had been a refugee when I first arrived in Cuba. And then, when I came to the United States, I wasn't really a refugee anymore. But... but I was different. And I think what made it possible for me, at least, partly because I'm sure there are many more factors than one, is that I was already different, and I was never going to quite fit in anyway. So I might as well be different in more ways than one.

CO: Did she talk to you about how difficult it was for her to get into the profession? Because her... her mentors and colleagues were saying that you should be a housewife. You should stay home or teach or something like that, right?

EC: Yes, we spoke about that a few times. Myriam had a very untypical biography for a physicist. But she was a very talented person. When she was, you know, in that state of sadness after her daughter was kidnapped and killed, she didn't work in science for maybe as long as 10 years. She stayed at home, but she produced many pieces of art. I've been in Myriam's apartment in midtown Manhattan many times, and I was always amazed by that… those pieces of art on the walls. This was very unusual. It was a very talented person.

CO: You just touched on something that was a terrible tragedy in her adult life, when one of her two daughters was abducted and killed. And she, by all accounts… well, she's talked about that it was... it was shattering. And so how did you... how do you think she overcame that? How was she able to come back into her field after that horrible tragedy?

EC: Um, well, I was not with Miriam during these 10 years when she mourned her daughter. I came to the City University of New York in '88, and this was about the time when Myriam was restarting her career in research. And the Myriam I knew was not a sad person. The Myriam I knew was a happy person. And she radiated happiness, and she was making everyone happy. This is the Myriam I remember.

CO: And so you talk about that she was doing all of this extraordinary research in her field, but also interested in the arts. And I understand that her past, that what happened to her as a child, was something, that... that you, the both of you, turned to the human rights related work together. Can you tell us a bit about the experiences of her childhood?

EC: Yes, Myriam had a very difficult childhood. She was running from Nazis. And all these memories definitely made a great impact on Myriam. She was very much interested in human rights. And she understood the plight of people in countries like Iran, Russia, China, where people were oppressed, where they were running from authorities like Myriam did when she was a child. She understood what was happening, and she kind of connected with these people.

CO: It's so extraordinary. And I understand for her students as well that she was just fiercely loyal and helpful. And how are her students remembering her today?

EC: Well, Myriam was like a mother to her students. I observed it many times when she published with her students a very famous paper. Then, soon after that, a group from France wanted to publish a similar paper in Nature without any reference to Myriam's work. And she called the editor of Nature, and mostly she was concerned about her students, not about herself, she told me that. Because her students were so proud that they did that great work in physics, and she didn't want her students to lose any part of that pride. So she talked to the editor of Nature, and the editor of Nature then spoke with the French researchers, and they were forced to admit in their paper that they only corroborated the results that were already published by Myriam's group.

CO: Just in so many ways, she sounds so extraordinary. How are you going to remember her?

EC: Well, I'm going to remember Myriam as my soulmate because we discussed so many topics during 30 years that I knew her, in physics, on human rights, some, you know, personal topics. And we were always on the same page. Myriam was very wise. Not only myself, but all other people were coming to her for advice. And this is how I would remember her. I don't have any other person of that kind that I know.

CO: Extraordinary. Professor Chudnovsky, I really appreciate you telling us about her. Thank you.

EC: Thank you.

CO: All right. Bye-bye.

EC: Bye-bye.

CH: Eugene Chudnovsky is a Distinguished Professor of Physics at the City University of New York. We reached him in Westchester County, New York.

[music: somber]

Coldplay Green Tour

CH: Nobody said it was easy. No one ever said it would be so hard. But Coldplay thinks they've finally come up with a plan to make their tour more environmentally friendly. Today, the British band announced a 2022 world tour. It will be their first tour since frontman Chris Martin made headlines in 2019 -- when he pledged the band would stop touring, until they could do it in a more sustainable way. Mr. Martin spoke with the BBC about making that commitment, and whether the new tour lives up to that promise.

SOUNDCLIP

CHRIS MARTIN: It sort of became a headline, and then we thought, well, that's actually really… that is actually what we really feel. And so what happened after that last piece is that so many people started getting in touch with us to say, oh, we do this, and we do that, and we build this, and we're inventing this. And so then we employed a couple of people to just be full-time on looking at all of this stuff, how to make touring a bit cleaner or a lot cleaner. And I would say we're probably about 50 per cent of where we would want to get to eventually. But in terms of the show itself, the whole show is powered from renewable energy, which is amazing. And then in terms of offsetting people being there, we're able to plant a tree for every ticket sold.

COLIN PATERSON: You've been working with BMW to try and develop new technology. I've got visions of you in a lab coat now.

CM: With BMW, they said they could build us these batteries. The solar power comes from panels. We've met these people who build flooring that is kinetic, so two areas of the audience are on kinetic flooring. And so when they move, they power the concept. I think one thing that I feel really excited about is being transparent because I want to know where too, like, where are all these trees? Because this is all of us doing it. It's not just the band, it's... it's anyone that comes.

CP: When rock stars speak about the environment, there are always cries of hypocrisy, especially when private jets are being used yet. Are you ready for the inevitable backlash?

CM: Yeah, I don't mind any backlash at all. We're trying our best, and we haven't got it perfect. And... and the people that give us backlash for that kind of thing, for flying, that they're right.

CP: What's your ultimate goal for this tour?

CM: That's a great question. I think the first goal is to try and see if we can help anyone to have a nice time. People singing together seems to create a feeling that is hard to find anywhere else. And then, in terms of the stuff we're talking about, the sustainability side, the goal for it is in a few years time, when this tour finishes, to have slightly shifted the status quo of how it all works.

CH: Coldplay leader Chris Martin speaking with BBC entertainment correspondent Colin Paterson about planning the band's new eco-friendly tour.

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October 14, 2021 Episode Transcript

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