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The Current Transcript for September 27, 2021

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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SOUNDCLIP

Actually seen walking through empty chairs everywhere, I felt it. I really felt like I missed it immensely because this is our home.

MATT GALLOWAY: One of the many disruptions of this pandemic has been an interruption of collective experience, weddings, graduations, sporting events with thousands of strangers all cheering on the same team slowly and despite a fourth wave. These are coming back in an hour. Toronto Raptors President Masai Ujiri, talks about the return home of his team, the tricky issue of vaccines in the NBA and why he sees his role as a black leader reaching well beyond basketball. Also this morning, embrace the great outdoors, we're told, sounds fun, unless it's not.

VOICE: I remember when I made it across and I finally landed on the beach, I went on my knees and I remember I screamed really loud to myself and it was euphoric kind of feeling to realise that fear is something that you can really conquer.

MG: Duncan McCue is here in 30 minutes with the final episode in his Back to the Land series, this time exploring a fear of nature. But first there home. What happens next? Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. And this is The Current.

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The two Michaels are free — what happens next?;

Guests: Lynette Ong, Dick Fadden

SOUNDCLIP

I just want to say thank you very much to all Canadians for the enormous support and all the effort that so many people have made to help bring Michael Spavor and me home. It was really moving and knowing that so many people knew about the situation and cared about the situation really helped us get through a very difficult time. I am immensely happy and thank you so much.

MG: That's Michael Kovrig speaking with Mercedes Stephensen of Global News this weekend. On Friday night, he and Michael Spavor finally arrived home after more than a thousand days in a Chinese prison. The minister of Foreign Affairs, Marc Garneau, was one of the people at the airport to meet the two men first.

SOUNDCLIP

We've been working on trying to get the release of the two Michaels, but to see them actually land and to get off the aeroplane and to touch down on Canadian social soil was, was very emotional. It was something that we had all been hoping for for a very long time. And I think, you know, you could sense a collective sigh of relief from Canada and Joy at seeing our two Michaels finally back on Canadian soil.

MG: China is still insisting that their detention had nothing to do with the arrest of Meng Wanzhou in Vancouver. The Huawei executive was facing charges of fraud and conspiracy in the United States. But when those legal issues were taken care of, she was allowed to board. And when she was allowed to board a plane back to China, Michael Spavor and Michael Kovrig were also sent home. Dick Fadden was national security adviser to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and Stephen Harper. He's also the former director of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service. Dick Fadden. Good morning.

DICK FADDEN: Good morning.

MG: What was your reaction when you learnt the news is dramatic as it was that Michael Spavor and Michael Kovrig were coming home?

DICK FADDEN: I think like most Canadians, I was absolutely ecstatic. But I was also astonished that their release was virtually simultaneous with Ms. Meng release. But as I think many people have been saying, I think this is pretty close to proof positive that the two cases were related and that the Chinese denial of this is utter and complete diplomatic buffoonery.

MG: What did it say to you about I mean, you say you were astonished. What did it say to you about what's actually going on for the past three years that this happened almost in concert?

DICK FADDEN: It's a good question. I think that for the longest time, we need the you know, the Chinese were just irritated at what was going on and they thought that they could bully us into releasing more money and they kept this up. I think they were pretty convinced that during the Trump administration and the United States, not a great deal would be undertaken by the Americans to help. And I think over, you know, despite everything that we may have done in terms of bringing together other countries to protest, I think it was pretty clear that the release of the two Michaels was within the control of the Chinese and nobody else. I suspect that at some point the lawyers got together and decided that, you know, enough was enough. And Ms. Meng, I think, had to admit some measure of guilt in dealing with the charge against the United States has put forward. And all of a sudden it all happened. And I suspect the Chinese are still rather irritated with us. And that will complicate, I believe, our relations with them over the next little while.

MG: Do you think Canada was used by the United States in this case?

DICK FADDEN: You know, I don't really think so. I have a great deal of respect for the U.S. Department of Justice. And, you know, maybe the general tone that existed at the time of the Trump administration didn't help. They were trying to deal with China in a new way and maybe that encouraged it. But fundamentally, I think if there had been nothing behind the U.S. charges and request for for extradition, I think our system would have seen that and we wouldn't have gone through the process, you know, culminating in the trial before the Supreme Court.

MG: What do you think the negotiations would have been like in terms of dealing with a country like China? Part of this is about Meng Wanzou and the deferred prosecution agreement that was reached, but also it's about releasing these two Canadians. So from the Canadian perspective, what would the conversations have been like behind the scenes, do you think?

DICK FADDEN: Well, I think I think in truth that the principles in this case were the U.S. Department of Justice and the lawyers for Whiteway with Canadians playing a secondary role. I think it was very clear on the part of the Americans that, you know, they wanted for us the release of the two Michaels. So I think we would have been there to encourage the, you know, a link between the two cases, much as we've been doing over the course of the last two or three years. But it seems to me, without knowing any of the details of that. Lawyers for Huawei and the U.S. Department of Justice were principally involved because we weren't principles. You know, we were trying to deal with an extradition request, not with the fundamental charge.

MG: In the meantime, at the end of this, China gets the CFO of one of its star companies back, she returns to a hero's welcome. Do you think that the China will be emboldened by this? Because for people, a lot of people looking from the outside, it would appear that that hostage diplomacy worked for China.

DICK FADDEN: I absolutely think so. I think we need to remember that China's diplomacy and interpretation of international law and practise over the last few years has changed. Under President Xi, they've become much more assertive, much more aggressive, and they have pursued their interests with considerable amount of vigour and disregard for what the rest of the planet thinks. This from their perspective, I think is a success story. I think in particular in dealing with middle powers, you know, we're not the only one. They've gone through some tough Australia has gone through some tough patches. Japan has gone through some tough patches with the Chinese and they don't deal in conventional diplomatic terms. This will only reinforce their view that, you know, as the rising superpower, they have weight the rest of us don't have. I suspect they will continue. And I think together the international community has to come together and push back on this. Whether we'll be successful or not is another issue. But we cannot let them, I think, continue to believe that they can just push their weight around as the world's bully.

MG: But as you said, this is a success story. So do you worry that something like this could happen again?

DICK FADDEN: Yeah, I do. I think that, you know, the Chinese will not do this lightly, but if they're sufficiently annoyed, I think they would. Also pardon me, we need to remember that their interpretation of national security is extraordinarily broad. So, you know, somebody just taking out a camera in parts of China constitutes a crime against national security. So it is not difficult for them to pick, you know, a Canadian, American, Norwegian, Britain and arrest them for whatever purpose. So, yes, I do think it's something we need to worry about and we need to push back we, the international community, to make it clearly understood that, you know, hostage taking by a state is not acceptable to.

MG: Fadden is a former national security adviser and former head of CSIS. Stay with us. I want to bring Lynette Ong into this conversation, professor with the Munk School of Global Affairs and Public Policy at the University of Toronto. Lynetter, good morning to you.

LYNETTE ONG: Hi, Matt.

MG: these two men are now home. And so having returned home, how difficult do you think it's going to be to repair the relationship between Canada and China?

LYNETTE ONG: I think it is it is pretty challenging to put the bilateral relations back to what what they were about 1000 days ago, simply because, you know, we now see what sort of power China has actually come or it has devolved into in the last couple of years, even though, you know, hostage diplomacy, one could say that it's not exactly new, such as in the Kevin Gabbers case. But I think two Michael's case, it has attracted so much international attention that I feel that China has pay the huge cost for securing the release of Ms.Meng That way. So even though Ms.Meng Return to China has been portrayed as one of heroic return crimes of nationalism and Chinese power internationally. But look at how international opinion has felt towards China has felt over the last couple of years, especially because pandemic I think, you know, China's, as you say, the huge cause for that sort of behaviour.

MG: Does China care about that?

LYNETTE ONG: In a way, it does and it does not, because domestically, where it matters most to the regime, it is able to control information in such a way that to cross the narrative that is still favourable to the leadership. But internationally, we chose enterprises operating from Africa, Latin America, Southeast Asia to Western democracies. They have actually suffered, you know, just look at Maori in the United States and Canada and so on. People are very wary of dealing with Chinese enterprises. This is the private enterprise, as always, has always will clean steel and enterprise and even worse. So in a way, I'm sure, you know, Chinese companies are feeling the pinch as well as the Chinese leadership.

MG: Marcano, the foreign affairs minister, was speaking with Rosemary Barton on her programme on CBC television yesterday. Take a listen to what he said about Canada's relationship with China going forward.

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China has changed in the past five years, we co-exist with them because we're on the same planet, we compete with them. That includes competing with respect to trade. We will cooperate with them in certain areas, for example, climate change, and we will challenge we challenged China with respect to arbitrary detention of the two Michael's. We challenge China with respect to their treatment of the wiggers, Tibetans, the people of Hong Kong, and we will continue to challenge them.

MG: Dick Fadden, Canada has been criticised by some for being soft in terms of its challenges to China. Do you think that that that's a fair assessment? And if it is, what should happen now that these two men are home?

DICK FADDEN: I think broadly speaking, it is fair, although I understand why the government sort of restrained itself given the situation of the two Micheal's. But I would argue that going forward, there are two broad categories of relationships that Canada has to worry about in terms of dealing with China. One is the international one. You know, we have the wiggers, we have the pressure they put on neighbouring countries. We have their disregard for international law. And in this respect, I think we have to get together with other countries and continue to challenge as much as we possibly can. But internally in Canada, I think that's an entirely different kettle of fish. And Mr. Garneau says challenge. But what is he going to do about, for example, attempts by the Chinese in one shape, form or another to acquire intellectual property, the foreign influence that we worry about, the activities of some state owned companies, the fact that, you know, some universities have so many students from China that their withdrawal would, you know, would endanger the ongoing operations of universities. I am not suggesting that we have to, you know, go through a list and kick China at every opportunity that we have. But we really do need to think about our relations with China, I think in those two buckets and in the respective in Canada. Mr. Garneau also said that he sees relations with Canada with eyes wide open. Good thing. But what are we going to do about their unacceptable activity in Canada? I mean, I hope he he and his colleagues take a little bit of time and think about this, not just behind the closed doors of the cabinet, but maybe with the new parliament and with society in general. I think it's going to be a tough slog because as the Chinese said late yesterday, they're still annoyed at Canada. And we need to focus on where we're going to push forward, in which which manner.

MG: There are some specific decisions that could be made, though. And let me just briefly walk through them. One is Huawei and its efforts to be involved in Canada's 5G network. Do you think Canada has has been reluctant for obvious reasons with these two men being held to make a decision on this? Do you think that decision comes down now?

DICK FADDEN: I very much hope it does. There's no reason why not, in particular because our five eyes partners have gone down this route. I think most of our NATO partners have gone down this route. And this is a this is a very clear and unambiguous case of a state owned company potentially playing havoc with our IT infrastructure. And you'll know as well as I do that many Canadian companies have sort of taken this into account and have not gone the way front. But I don't think we've endeared ourselves with our five partners in particular by refusing to go down this route. So I don't think we would surprise the Chinese if we did this, and I don't think it would have a big economic impact on Huawei. So I think I would argue we should do this.

MG: You mentioned the weaker population. Should Canada take steps to call what China is doing to its weaker population a genocide?

DICK FADDEN: I'm a lapsed lawyer, so I have a problem with that, because I think if you go back to the convention on genocide, there's a problem with whether you call what's going on there, genocide or not. But what is going on there is utterly unacceptable. And we should push very, very hard with our partners around the world to get this acknowledged as unacceptable behaviour and urge the Chinese to stop if it is politically expedient to call it genocide. I understand that. But I also think that today we use the word genocide somewhat too loosely. But that's just the lawyer in me making that comment.

MG: Lynette Ong, you talked about public sentiment. How do you see public sentiment in this country changing? How would the expectations the Canadians would have in terms of how its government, how our government interacts with China?

LYNETTE ONG: I think public sentiment has turned against China that will bind the government to a certain position. So before the arrest of the two Michaels, a lot of embassies were put on trade. And people people exchange after this episode of of events, there is more of an emphasis put on security, and rightly so. And I think what the foreign minister said earlier on the tape that you played, what she has articulated is really a differentiated approach on the issue to issue bases in a broadly divided into four four categories, which which I which I agree, because they are also issues, international issues that we need to secure cooperation from China, such as fighting pandemics, such as on climate change mitigation without China's cooperation. And this sort of negotiation is. Not meaningful, so I still feel that there needs to be some sort of a balance, but overall security will take more emphasis over over other issues.

MG: I mean, the reality of many people say is that Canada needs China much more than China needs Canada. So how do you strike that balance?

LYNETTE ONG: We need more than China simply because of trade. China is a much larger trading partner than the United States, but, you know, there is some passion as to how China composes and pays. This is truly coercive strategy and understanding logic. I think we can achieve. But the hitch our our risk that that, you know, I'm kind of doing a study that that that actually shows China purposely picked those sectors where it is actually less dependent on the trading partner. So we don't actually predict a hit, you know, which sectors are more vulnerable compared to others

MG: to end up in? Yeah, absolutely. Go ahead.

DICK FADDEN: I just wanted to say, it seems to me that one of the things that we should do is actually carefully examine the question you've asked: how much does Canada really need China? I think in our minds, we have come to exaggerate the importance of China. Do we need Chinese capital? I don't think so. Do we need Chinese tourism? It's nice, but we don't need it. The point I'm trying to make is, is that one of the problems Canada has had over the decades is trade diversification. You know, there are hundreds of millions of people in Asia outside of China. I think we have to be very careful not to put ourselves into a position where we believe that — using exaggerated language — the world is going to stop turning if we can't trade with China. Yes, it's important. Yes, we should try and do it. But trade diversification and whatnot, and not viewing it as the be-all-and-end-all might be worthwhile there looking at this very carefully and having a bit of a national dialogue over it.

MG: And would that answer the question around what the relationship, such as it is, would look like? I mean, it's not just about these two men. There are still other people, including Huseyin Celil, a Canadian who's been held in China since 2006, who are still in Chinese prisons. So if you, if you, if you step back, as you're suggesting, would that then lead to a broader conversation about how we see as a nation China's place in the world?

DICK FADDEN: I hope that would be the case. I think China is a rising superpower. You know, they're not ... they just are. We're going to have to look at China holistically. And I agree with Professor Ong previously, before the two Michaels, we had this vision in our minds that they were a trading partner. China is too important to be viewed through a single lens. We need a comprehensive, comprehensive, I think, holistic look, and then start taking advantage of where we can in order to promote a better relationship. But I'd argue and I think this is what the professor was saying, that in the short term, I think we're going to have to put a little bit more emphasis on the security side and then work with partners around the world to try and stabilise things a bit.

Lynette Ong.

LYNETTE ONG: You know, I think going forward, the Liberal government really needs to articulate its China policy loud and effectively. In the past thousand days, we have of an opposition on 5G and other security issues are not quite clear, probably for understandable reasons, because we have too men held in detention in China, but without making opposition only if we don't know who your friends are. So alliance are being formed in the meantime where we get left out. I think that is probably the worst of all situations. So we don't agree to we don't need to agree with the United States or Australia on every single security issues. But once we make our position clear, we could more easily identify who your friends, such as the recent nuclear submarine deal that have been formed. The alliance from the three countries, United States, UK, Australia, Canada has been left out of this is debateable whether it is in their interest to go with that. But this was a bunch of European countries that are not happy with that deal. So once we go there and see that this is what we stand for, this is what we articulate, we we can form our allies that we can.

MG: Actually, it's great to speak with you both about this. And we'll talk certainly more about it in the days and weeks to come. In the meantime, thank you very much.

DICK FADDEN: Our pleasure.

MG: Dick Fadden, former head of CSIS and the former national security adviser to Prime Minister Stephen Harper and Justin Trudeau Lynette Ong professor with the Munk School of Global Affairs and Public Policy at the University of Toronto. Canada's ambassador to China, Dominic Barton, was involved in the negotiations and was on the plane with the two Michaels and he will be my guest tomorrow on The Current Path. Your CBC News is next. And then.

SOUNDCLIP

[Unintelligible]makes you feel alive because all your senses are at like maximum level. Everything is heightened. Smell, touch, sight. If you can manage that, if you can control that and use that almost as a weapon.

MG: The natural world is a beautiful, powerful, awe inspiring and sometimes scary place. Duncan McCue spoke with two people who faced their fears in the outdoors for the next episode. In his series Back to the Land. Dunkin's here in six minutes. I'm Matt Galloway. And this is The Current on CBC Radio One.

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Back to the Land looks at overcoming a fear of the great outdoors

Guest: Duncan McCue

MG: Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. Still to come, Masai Ujiri is much more than the president of this country's only NBA franchise, the one after his latest contract extension. He's now president and vice chairman of the Toronto Raptors, but he's also an activist, a dreamer and a philanthropist who wants to use sports to make an impact in Africa and beyond. In 30 minutes, we'll talk about all of that. And he may or may not answer a question about whether he plans to break into the world of politics, next. But first, a fear of the wild.

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MG: Today, we head back to the land one more time with Duncan McHugh, this is the conclusion to our series and we're talking about the fear of nature. Duncan. Good morning. Oh, scary. It does sound kind of spooky in people. There are some people who do have a fear of nature, and it turns out that this actually has a name.

DUNCAN MCCUE: I didn't know this guy, nor did I. But in its in its extreme form, it's called biophobia, a fear of living things and an aversion to nature. And typically that's focussed on specific fear. So whether its people are scared of the dark or heights or creatures, you know, like snakes and spider.

MG: Not a big fan of spiders myself.

DUNCAN MCCUE: OK, yeah. All right. But but, you know, researchers are finding more and more kids have a general fear of the natural world. And that's like being scared of a flock of birds or when a frog hops across the sidewalk.

MG: You have introduced us to a lot of folks during the series talking about the benefits of nature and urging people to get outdoors. Square that for me. I mean, if somebody is afraid of the outdoors, how does that work?

DUNCAN MCCUE: Well, that's what we're going to leap into today, because we're going to start with with two people who have some pretty scary experiences outdoors and see how they tackle it. All right. Let's have a listen.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: I've never been to this place before. Only a few people have ever actually been to this exact location in the Turks and Caicos Islands. And there was this one massive channel that was just pitch black darkness. I couldn't see across it. I couldn't even, I couldn't even tell where it ended. I realised that, OK, there are no other better possibilities. I just have to swim across.

VOICE 2: I had gone ice climbing in in the Northern Rockies, in northern B.C. with some friends, and I had never had a picnic of this level before it. I think I just let myself get too cold to hungry, too tired.

VOICE 1: Just before I actually went in the water, it was funny. I saw a turtle's head kind of pop out in front of me and I was like thinking like, wow, this definitely is a channel that animals use for crossing's. And I'm hoping that there aren't any hungry sharks that are, you know, looking to nibble on anything. I decided to switch off the fear and put that aside and then just start to focus on what I always do, which is focus on the present moment, focus on exactly what I need to do, which was go as fast as I possibly can.

VOICE 2: I was in sort of a fragile state generally at that time, about six months after my mom had died and I just had a complete meltdown, what I understood later to be, you know, a pretty serious panic attack. I became convinced that if I moved one single step from where I was standing at the top of this frozen creek, I would die. I couldn't move. I couldn't really breathe. I felt just like certain doom.

VOICE 1: That's actually the first time I ever swam in the ocean at Night-Time. I couldn't see anything at all, I couldn't see the other side, and the only thing that I really saw were the stars in the sky, and you could see essentially the galaxy above you. All you could hear is in some ways and you could hear like the water against the shore. That's how I started to realise that I was getting closer and closer to the other side. This is the kind of listening for the water to hit the shore.

VOICE 2: I told my friends to leave me there and go on without me. I'm sorry I'm staying here. Some sort of comical in retrospect. But at the time, it was, you know, late afternoon in February in the subarctic and it was getting dark and I was soaking wet. And I wouldn't have lived very long. If they had left me there. I wouldn't have lived till Monday, probably. So they had to get me down almost against my will.

VOICE 1: I remember when I made it across and I finally landed on the beach. I went on my knees and I remember I screamed really loud to myself. And it was it was just a euphoric kind of feeling in a moment that brought me to realise that fear is something that you can you can really conquer.

VOICE 2: And that was really what pushed me to say this is not an acceptable level of fear anymore. Either have to give up these passions that I enjoy in the outdoors or I have to figure out how to fix this.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Fear of the outdoors. It's a thing whether it's wild animals, unpredictable weather or treacherous landscapes, nature can be scary. This is a story about two different people who face their fears in the outdoors and how they did it.

EVA: I'm Eva Holland, I'm a freelance writer based in Whitehorse in the Yukon. I mostly write magazine articles, often for Outside magazine, and I'm the author of the book Nerve: A Personal Journey Through the Science of Fear.

MARIO: My name is Mario Rigby and I am an eco-explorer. That means I do adventures in a sustainable way.

DUNCAN MCCUE: They both sound pretty outdoorsy, right? But neither one of them grew up knowing much of anything about nature.

EVA: I was a total city kid. I grew up in Ottawa mostly, and we weren't, you know, a camping family. I, I didn't get out of the city a lot. So I was riding the bus to the mall in the summer to enjoy the air conditioning. And I thought about things like hikes and trips and big adventures, always read adventure books. When I was growing up, I just didn't really have the means to do them. I think I had been camping three or four times in my life when I moved to the Yukon at twenty eight and I kind of jumped in the deep end backpacking in grizzly country and learning how to do creek crossings. And it was terrifying. It was a lot to take in. There's a lot to try to learn and navigate safely.

MARIO: I actually did not grow up doing outdoor activity. This is quite new to me. I only started in my late 20s. I don't really see too many people that are black in the outdoors, particularly men. So it's a rare thing.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Mario's entry point to nature was a crisis in his life. He was no longer happy being a fitness instructor. After grinding it out all day at the gym, he took up walking.

MARIO: I started with small walks, you know, one hour walks through Toronto. I would go back and forth from home to work and I stopped taking the subway. The streetcars, I just ended up walking. And those walks were quite therapeutic to me because I started to really listen to what my mind is telling me. I really started to focus on things that I never focussed on before, like what really matters to me. I was afraid of being stuck in a world without this kind of like global adventure that I've always wanted as a kid.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Something about those walks stirred memories of his childhood inspiration, the superhero Black Panther. The blog is.

MARIO: So when I was a kid, my brother, that we would watch this show called The Black Panther and there was an episode where the child of the king of Wauconda, before he became the king of Wauconda, after his father had died, he decided that he wanted to go on a walkabout around Africa to experience a different kind of life in which he knew that would eventually lead him to become a better leader. And they kind of stuck with me for the rest of my life, like it was always kind of in the back of my mind. But I never realised that this is something that I could also probably do myself. And as I started doing these walks, I was realising that, OK, well, I could probably do something that's a walking adventure.

DUNCAN MCCUE: He hatched a plan to walk across eight countries in Africa over two years, but there was a small problem.

MARIO: I never knew how to camp prior to Africa. I never owned a tent. I never owned a backpack. I never owned any of these things. So this was all quite new to me. I had to learn exponentially right on the spot. When I told people I'm going to walk the length of Africa, 90 percent of my friends just basically laughed it off or were incredibly worried about me. They said, like, what about the lions? And what about, you know, so they always constantly came up with the worst case scenarios.

DUNCAN MCCUE: How did you set about overcoming those fears?

MARIO: By, you know, looking at things step by step.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Eva Hollande also took it step by step. Her Yukon friends kept inviting her on outdoor trips. It was either stay home alone or face her paralysing fear of heights.

EVA: I'm fine with aeroplanes. Bridges generally balcony's as long as they had like a good, sturdy railing. It was all about whether or not I felt like I could fall. So where that ties into my life in the Yukon is it mostly manifested if I was hiking on any kind of steep or exposed slope or when I try to do things like rock climbing.

DUNCAN MCCUE: She set out to change that by trying different therapies for overcoming fear and being a journalist. She documented her experience. First was exposure therapy.

EVA: It was really challenging, especially once I understood a bit more about the science. I understood that the goal isn't to get to the top of the rock climb when you're using climbing as a form of exposure therapy. The goal is to try to stay calm, which is harder in some ways. So I would go only a few, a few steps off the ground, a few moves. I'd be the height of a stepladder off the ground and I'd be starting to feel my chest tighten and my breathing accelerate. It's what has often been called the fight or flight reaction. That's our body readying itself to defend against the threat that you perceive the threat to your safety. And I had to learn to sort of stop there, not try to push through it, not try to force it. I had always been my instinct before was just you suck it up and push through. But the goal with exposure therapy was to get just to the point, get as far as I could without panicking and then try to get one step further next time. It's a very gradual process, a lot of work, but it can be rewarding for people who put the time in. And it did make a difference for me. I was by the end of a season of climbing, I was a lot calmer.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Mario, on the other hand, was jumping in with both feet after his successful trek across Africa, planting more globetrotting eco adventures. Then the pandemic hit.

MARIO: The coronavirus was was widespread. And I think a lot of people were in a very depressive state at that time, including myself. And I felt like I really wanted to explore the outdoors. I wanted to go out on an adventure. And of course, it would have been, you know, incredibly irresponsible to have gone outside of my province. By now. I'm paddling through the waters along the shoreline of Lake Ontario, Toronto. Sitting in a kayak feels like sitting on the clouds.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Yeah, to tell me about his pandemic adventure, Mario took us out to the lake, him in his kayak, me and my canoe.

MARIO: Every time I take a stroke and paddle in the water, it feels like I'm slicing butter, it feels like art, almost like when an artist takes his brush and strokes the canvas. But the paint, it's such a soothing feeling. And instead of creating something, you're exploring something.

DUNCAN MCCUE: It wasn't quite so soothing last year when he decided to paddle the length of Lake Ontario.

MARIO: It was definitely scary at first. You know, I do get scared for a lot of these things, but I also know that, you know, I'm a quick learner. The rollover rate is just so high that any small SETTON movement can cause your kayak to roll over and you're protected by a skirt which is used to prevent water from going inside the cockpit area where where your feet are. And and so when you flip over and if you don't have a handle to pull your your skirt off, then you could be stuck inside that and you could essentially drowned as you're upside down in that kayak.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Was it scary being out in the window when the waves are on Lake Ontario on the

MARIO: way to get high? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, there are times where I'm just the whole time, you know, super nervous and trying to figure out what what's the next move? What do I need to do?

DUNCAN MCCUE: He paddled nearly 400 kilometres in three weeks encountering raw physical pain, thunderstorms, high winds, fear aplenty

MARIO: for you, makes you feel alive because all your senses are like maximum level. Everything is heightened. Your sense of smell, touch, sight, everything becomes like extra sensitive. And I feel like if you can manage that, if you can control that in a way, then you can use that almost as a as a weapon.

DUNCAN MCCUE: For him, tackling nature is all about meticulous preparation.

MARIO: Once you have the skills and the knowledge to do that, you have the skills and knowledge to do anything else you want to do in life. The foundation starts with your confidence within yourself, going into nature and being able to conquer it. You'll be able to conquer what's within you.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Is there a danger if people head out into nature and try to conquer it?

MARIO: There absolutely is a lot of danger to that. But this is also not what I expect most people to want to do in their lives. Explorers make up a very small population of humans on the planet.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Eva Holland is no explorer. She just wanted to get over her fear of heights. So she dialled it up a notch. She flew to a clinic in Amsterdam where scientists are working to get rid of phobias with a single pill.

EVA: It is kind of sci fi. There's a psychologist in Amsterdam, Dr. Malkin, who is applying the latest neuroscience into how our memory storage works to try to cure phobias. And when we acquire a memory, put it into long term storage. And then when it's sort of when we're sort of triggered, we bring it out of long term storage again. And there's a protein synthesis reaction that occurs not just when we first put the memory into storage, but also when we sort of open it up and put it away again. And so what the clinic in Amsterdam is doing is using a very common beta blocker, which disrupts protein synthesis. It's called propranolol.

DUNCAN MCCUE: That pill was meant to disrupt her memory. But first her doctor had to deliberately trigger her panic.

EVA: In my case, because Amsterdam is the flattest place in the world to trigger my fear of heights, she put me in the bucket of a fire truck and set it up, a tide that would go, oh, my God, what was that like? It was terrifying. I think I was crying a little bit. She sort of made me sort of ride the panic as fully as possible. And then when she felt that I was kind of good and right, we went down and she gave me the pill. And spoiler alert, 24 hours later, I was back up in that bucket again, taking selfies

DUNCAN MCCUE: and did it work?

EVA: It did, as far as I can tell, it did. I was completely free of panic the next day, and I have since gone ziplining and done some hikes that I never imagined I'd be able to do without sort of crawling on my hands and knees in tears.

DUNCAN MCCUE: There are lots of folks who find the great outdoors scary. If that's what's holding you back. You don't have to go so far as popping a fear pill or tackling an extreme adventure. Both Mario and Eva recommend taking baby steps, maybe sleep in a tent in your backyard, try a short hike close to home.

MARIO: Fear is usually something that comes from the unknown. If you don't know about something, the best thing to do is to stay away from it. And the body has a proper response for that. When we're raised, we're not taught about the outdoors. We're taught about, you know, mathematics, English and biology and all those kinds of things. But we're not taught about the different plants and animals. It's hard to find people that will willingly put themselves in a vulnerable position because we've been taught our entire lives to to shelter ourselves from things that could be a threat to us.

EVA: I came into the project thinking, you know, defeat your fear, overcome your fear, conquer fear. That was sort of my conception of what I was trying to do. And I really moved away from that that understanding of it. I actually was able to really change my relationship to fear. I do tend to think of it now more as a renegotiation or a sort of a changing of the parameters of my relationship with fear rather than overcoming or conquering. What does it mean to succeed on a hiking trip? I hope it means that you had some good conversations around a campfire maybe, or you saw some wildlife from a respectful distance, or you your body felt good while you were moving across whatever terrain you were moving across.

MARIO: We've been sold the idea that within the vicinity of your home, this is where you are most safe. And to a certain extent, you know, you might be physically safer from the possibilities of falling or tripping on a rock or, you know, being bitten by a mosquito with malaria, et cetera, et cetera. However, when you're on your deathbed, it's have you really lived a full life in a very short amount of time? In the last two hundred or so years, we've decided that we're just going to sit and lunch. And I think that's quite harmful to not only our bodies, but to our psyche as well.

EVA: Also, there's so many benefits, you know, as we increasingly know to being outdoors, health benefits, mental health benefit. It feels good to be out there hearing the wind in the trees or seeing wildlife. If we can find a way to see it without scaring us and without risking its safety either. I would just tell people not to expect too much of themselves and not to push it right away. You don't have to go straight to Mount Everest.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Don't be one of those people that needs the search and rescue to come and get.

EVA: Ideally not. That would be if you're coming through.

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MG: It's quite remarkable, Duncan, how far Eve and Mario have come in moving past that fear of nature that they have.

DUNCAN MCCUE: And I think they really want to try to inspire people because they went through that fear and they want to show that you can you can get through it in your own way.

MG: And they both seem worried about people being afraid of nature. I mean, did you get a sense as to why that

DUNCAN MCCUE: is to go back to the research? Again, it suggests that if human beings aren't exposed to wilderness and they fear nature, then they're less inclined to want to protect it. And so that, of course, has implications for the environment and then ultimately climate change. So you're going to hear that refrain for more and more conservationists saying that the key to protecting wildlife and protecting habitat is making sure that kids learn about nature so that when they see a bumblebee or a garter snake or whatever, they don't go, you know, but they say cool and they want to learn more.

MG: We've been hearing about the land over the course of the series. Can I ask you what the land means to you?

DUNCAN MCCUE: The land? It is just the source of so much peace and joy for me. It is the source of teachings, you know, traditionally from my people. And, boy, you know, when work, when I'm having a tough day here at the office, there's nothing better than just getting out on the land for me.

MG: I am grateful that we had you here sharing the series with us. Thank you very much.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Thank you, Matt. And I just want to make sure that credit goes to my producer partners, Zoe Tennant and Joan Webber, who are my partners in radio making throughout all of us.

MG: Duncan, thanks again.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Migwitch. Thank you.

MG: That's our CBC Radio colleague, Duncan McCue. This is The Current on CBC Radio One. My name is Matt Galloway. The Quebec government announced last week that it will be offering bonuses as high as 18,000 dollars to nurses who choose to work full time in the public health system. It's an incentive to keep nurses from leaving the job as the province grapples with an urgent staffing shortage, one that's happening right across this country. Nurses often say they are being driven out of their profession because they feel overworked, undervalued and burnt out. Another, less discussed reason, violence and aggression in the health care system. I spoke with a nurse who told me getting yelled at or hit by patients or their relatives has become an almost daily occurrence on the job. Here's Sonia Bernard describing one particularly harrowing encounter she had at work.

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SONIA BERNARD: The patient was attempting to harm themselves. Support staff were not able to get there fast enough. So we had to intervene. And in the process of that intervention, the patient managed to grab me and put me to the ground so that I was actually on top of them and then managed to launch into the air where I actually landed on my back and the floors that the hospital settings are not exactly made of spungen rubber. So the hard floors, it was quite jarring. I had whiplash and I was off, I think, for about a week for that one before I was able to return.

MG: And you went back to work after?

SONIA BERNARD: Yeah, about a week later, yeah.

MG: Can I ask you about going back to work? I mean, we'll talk more about this, but you your job, you have to go back. But what sort of trepidation did you feel in terms of going back into into that setting?

SONIA BERNARD: At that time I didn't really feel any trepidation. I knew what the scenario was when we decided to go in and engage. And at that point, I had already been into my career for a few years. So it wasn't as shocking at that time. I just kind of thought, OK, well, thank goodness that's all it was. It wasn't anything worse like that could have been a lot worse for all of us. For both of us that want to go intervene, we could have got much more significantly injured. And I guess I was just more appreciative of the fact that it didn't go worse and that support staff came very quickly. I mean, it felt like forever, but it was like in under a minute after that happened. And we contain that situation and we just kind of moved on.

MG: We'll bring you the rest of my conversation with Sonia Bernard later this week. And I'll speak with a researcher who says the silence that surrounds violence in hospitals and long term care facilities is only making the problem worse. That is coming up on The Current. Well, coming up after your regional update, the magic of sports is not limited to the space inside the lines on a basketball court or a soccer pitch or a football field. Toronto Raptors vice chairman and President Masai Ujiri, knows that better than most. I'll speak with him about that magic, this country, his team and his dreams and why he wants to be leader well beyond sport. That's coming up in 90 seconds. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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Masai Ujiri on encouraging vaccine-hesitant Raptors to take the shot

Guest: Masai Ujiri

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway, and you're listening to The Current.

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So great to see people smile a little bit and see that we can actually interact in some kind of way. I can't wait to get back to Toronto here. Can't wait to get back to playing. We can't wait to get back to basketball. I'm really extremely excited.

MG: Raptors President Masai Ujiri isn't the only one who's excited. Fans will soon be able to see the team play on home court again when it returns to Toronto next month after last season's stint in Tampa due to covid-19 restrictions. Masai Ujiri has high hopes for what his players can achieve this season, both on and off the court. He's just returned from Kenya and Tanzania, where his Giants of Africa Foundation is building sports facilities for youth. Masai Ujiri, good morning.

MASAI UJIRI: How are you?

MG: I'm well, and I am always grateful for the chance to talk to you. So thank you for taking some time with us.

MASAI UJIRI: Thank you for having me.

MG: I want to talk about your trip to Kenya and Tanzania in a moment. But let me ask you first just about this country. We are just out of an election right now. It feels like there is some anger in this country around vaccines and vaccine passports. Some of that came up during the election as well. And the sense for some people is, is that this country feels a bit divided. You love this country. You spend a lot of time here. What do you think the mood in Canada is right now?

MASAI UJIRI: Matt, it's interesting you say that I get some of that sense and being in and out so much, you get all the comments from all sides. I think the pandemic has been, it's been brutal, you know, like to everybody around the world. I've seen it in all in all fronts, in all places, whether it's in the states, whether it's in Africa or even in Canada, here mentally, it has been exhausting for everybody. And I feel for people I hope that we can come out of this in much better spirits. It's going to take a little bit of time. But I do believe in the vaccines. I do believe in some of the remedies that we've taken, you know, trying to get people safe. And hopefully it has helped us reach a certain threshold that will keep us healthy and safe going forward.

MG: Do you worry that some of the polarisation we see in the United States could could be coming north across the border?

MASAI UJIRI: I believe in Canada, honestly. I believe in who we are as people on the on the high level. Yes, there's always naysayers. Sometimes we have to respect that. These are health issues. And mental issue is a serious life issues that we all have to pay attention to. I haven't been into each other. I believe the states will get on the right track eventually. I believe in people. And that's that's what I believe in. And I think at the end that shall prevail and people will get back to life and normal life, hopefully.

MG: So the last time you and I spoke, we were talking about the racial divisions and the movement spurred on by the murder of George Floyd. There were big promises that came out of that moment. People felt as though something might change, that this was going to lead to something different. What do you think actually changed in the wake of that?

MASAI UJIRI: You know, awareness changed and a platform for us to really speak and affect change now. Did we all do that? I think it's a work in progress. And we're going to see how many people did we all say, let's see, after a couple of years to see how much people have forgotten, how much work people did and how much people are paying attention to this? We all do realise that there is a problem in this world in this day and age, and we all have to pay particular attention to it. And as a leader, I have to continue to be in the forefront of this.

MG: Do you think that that players in the league and the league itself will keep up the pressure and their advocacy this season around this? I mean, the league got a lot of attention for being a leader in speaking out about the divisions, particularly when it came to race.

MASAI UJIRI: One hundred percent, I live and speak and eat and drink with these players. I do that. Same with NBA officials, whether it's the commissioner of the NBA or whether it's the team with Larry Tanenbaum. And these guys continue to honestly, like, stay in the forefront of this, the coalitions, the programmes and the money that they've put into this. And honestly, the active engagement, you know, like sometimes we as black people, indigenous people, we just want to see engagement and honest engagement from these people. And as we continue to, they will begin to feel us and they would begin to see it. You know, like from our perspective, it's not just throw money out and donate money, you know, like it's actually like living with us in some kind of way. Can they see it directly and be our own skin colour? No, they can't, you know, like but well, human beings, you know, like can we can respect for sure what all of us feel and what all of us go through.

MG: Let me ask you about something that the league has not. I mean, he got a lot of praise, as I mentioned, for its advocacy around Black Lives Matter. Less so this summer when people started talking about drug policies in the league. The summer saw the Raptors forced to cut ties with one of its young players, young guard Jalen Harris. The NBA banned him for a year after violating its anti-drug rules. And there are people who say that these policies are a holdover from the war on drugs, which has disproportionately targeted African-Americans in particular. And they find it surprising that that league would have those policies when it's been so progressive and other social issues. What do you think of that criticism?

MASAI UJIRI: We all have to be mentors that, you know, like when I look at our league and I look at the players coming in, we are going to make mistakes? I feel strongly about that. And we have to have some level of mentorship for these young players coming in to the forefront of being in the limelight. And it is an obligation for us to put to put them in the right direction. But I always ask the question, what were we doing when we were 21 years old, when we're 23 years old? What was everybody doing? And then now you're in the forefront of being almost a role model just by nature and by the job that you do. I think as a league, as us, we're always going to try and mentor these kids in the best possible way. All the programmes that we try to instil, not only as the NBA, but as us, as teams and and they are difficult topics, but the only way to deal with them is to be out front and deal with them face to face forward.

MG: Do you think I mean, the NFL and Major League Baseball have have overhauled particularly the policies around recreational drugs to focus on treatment over punishment when you talk about mistakes. I mean, yeah, we all made mistakes when we were young. Would would you like to see the NBA do that to shift its focus more toward treatment, toward making somebody better rather than casting them out of the league?

MASAI UJIRI: I do think, you know, when standards are set, I think the NBA also does work on trying to make these players better. I know with our player in particular, we talked about it as a team that even though he was suspended as a league, we do have interest in bringing him back. We do have interest in helping him rehabilitate and and and get better. We do monitor him and we have paid attention as much as as much as we can, because at the end of the day, is a 22 year old kid who has made some kind of a mistake in and in his life. So, yes, I do believe, you know, behind the scenes, the NBA does a lot of work to helping the youth go through these treatments and go through this process.

MG: People listen to what you have to say on issues like this, because taking a stand matters to you. And I think when people think of you now, they think of you almost more than basketball. What do you see as your role right now?

MASAI UJIRI: I have to be that in some way in that, to be honest, you know, because the opportunity that has been put in front of me where I can live as a black man here, I have the experience as a black man, it doesn't keep me from experiencing all the things that everybody else experiences. And that's who I parent with what happened to me last year. So for me, it doesn't matter what position you are in. Being black is being black. But I have a position I have a platform to speak on behalf of people, on behalf of a lot of youth, on behalf of maybe a lot of races. And I'm proud to do that. I stand up faithful. I want strong shoulders up and would do that every every minute of the day and every day of the week. That's just the way I was as a person. I believe we need that. We need that with leadership.

MG: Is that a role that you that you welcome? I mean, it's difficult. It comes with pressure and people listen to every word that you're saying and you're thrust out. You could just talk about basketball, but you're thrust out talking about other things. Is that something that you embrace?

MASAI UJIRI: I 100 percent and I speak from here, speak from the heart, and I speak what's true to me, and yes, we are all going to make mistakes here and there. And I will always take responsibility of the things I've not done so well to me. That's how we should be. But we also have to be responsible, very, very responsible in leading the way forward. So, yes, I feel no pressure at all. This is something I love to do. I'm working in a sport in basketball that has given me incredible opportunities in my life and I'm honoured and humbled to be in the forefront of it.

MG: Could you ever imagine running for public office? I would imagine that political parties would be knocking on your door saying, hello, come and run for us. Could you ever imagine doing that?

MASAI UJIRI: Depends on what you are talking about, that there's a lot of countries.

MG: Continue to tell me more about that.

MASAI UJIRI: I wish I could, you know, like I'm the son of the world. I do believe in in all of these places, beat Nigeria, be itKenya, be it Canada, beat the US. I've lived in all these places and I feel them. I feel them in my heart, to be honest. And that's why, you know, like I try to represent all of them in the best possible way that I can.

MG: Doesn't sound like you're ruling it out.

MASAI UJIRI: I just gave you a politician's answer.

MG: Tell me about the work that you were doing with giants of Africa. What were you up to last week?

MASAI UJIRI: You know, really, really exciting, exciting times, even though very, very challenging to with the pandemic. But obviously, we just announced that we're building 100 ports on the continent. And during the whole pandemic, when we could go to Africa for giants of Africa, as we usually do every year, we had we couldn't go last year. We were in the bubble and we decided to use some of these funds to build ports all over that period of time when we built 10 of them and so happy, so excited that we were able to open three of them, two in Kenya, one in Tanzania. And then later on in October, we're going to open the remaining seven. There is a huge, huge challenge for us to build those one hundred over the next couple of years, few years, and we're going to meet it face on. I'm really happy about that great team. I have great people of great support from the NBA, great support from Larry Tennenbaum, MLSE and the Raptors. And you know what? This is how we continue to really, really open the space in the world where we bring people together on that little basketball court.

MG: There's a bracelet that you wear that was made by one of the students at the Samburu Girls Foundation. Can you tell me about the bracelet? What does it mean to you?

MASAI UJIRI: It means the whole world.

MG: You still you still have it on?

MASAI UJIRI: Yes, I have it on as never came off since they gave it to me in Samburul. And we have the incredible, incredible playground facility, basketball courts, soccer field for these young women. These women go through the toughest situations in life. We're talking about mutilation here. We're talking about early marriage. It's incredible when you see them, the happiness in them and what they have gone through. I have a seven year old daughter, and I can't imagine going through what these girls have gone through for them to have that experience in them. Five, six, seven years ago, when I was introduced to them, it just became something so powerful. Not only that, it became an obligation for me when to start speaking with the elders there and how we can change things, which is very challenging in those parts of the world, the things that they have done for many years and how do we evolve from that. The Samburu World Girls Foundation and what Josephine Koolade does should not be done, should not be a school that's protecting girls from from all of this. It should be an educational institution. And that's our goal to change that, to be an educational institution where these girls are now free and can live free from all of that.

MG: And again, you see your responsibility. I mean, again, the foundation goes and it builds courts and it does development work with young kids that are there. But you said talking to the elders, you see a responsibility more broadly as well.

MASAI UJIRI: Yes, for sure. You know, what I always talk about is there is something about sports. Look at this. I'm on the platform talking to you about everything. What brought me into this? What brought me, what gave me this window is sports. And even when you speak to people in all of these places and you mention sports and you bring sports, there is that small window that it opens that makes people feel so comfortable, you know, like and in some ways, you know, like we have to, we have to use that platform in some kind of way because it's a beautiful thing. So first and foremost, we came in there wanting to talk to these girls and listen to them. It's important for us to listen to and listen to what they have to say and what they've gone through. And then now you introduce, you know, like an unbelievable game. They are so good at soccer and they have a great soccer team. When they gave me this bracelet, it really touched me in many ways. And even lifting up that trophy and and having this bracelet show, you know, like showed me that, you know what, they followed me maybe with some kind of luck, you know, like some kind of well wish that that has taken me to to many, many places.

MG: What do you make? You were there as this pandemic continues. Rage and I mean, here in Canada Vaccine Programme, the vaccine rollout has gone very well. There's already talk of booster shots for people so they could get a third shot on the continent. It's been much more difficult to even get people first shots. What do you make of the disparity when it comes to how this world is treating this global pandemic?

MASAI UJIRI: Well, there is there is a challenge with that. I just spoke to President Kagame about that actually yesterday. Two days ago, I met with him. And there is a problem in the continent with that. And we have to show some empathy, sympathy, everything that we can show and invest with people that don't have as much opportunity and where we have some some excess. And I think the governments are really looking into that. They saw that there were some big donations that were announced. But we have to pay attention to this sooner. And then, you know, sometimes we take these things for granted, what we have and what some other people are doing. South Africa is a part of me and my but I feel I feel strongly about it. And that's that's where I'm from. And I as a leader, has to pay attention to that, too.

MG: What about the conversation around vaccines here within the NBA? Are all the Raptors players vaccinated?

MASAI UJIRI: You know, I want to say that we are probably like the top of the NBA with where we are with vaccines. I might say even number one.

MG: Are all the players vaccinated, though? I mean, it's a tricky question because we know that that employees of MLSE need to be vaccinated. People who go to the games need to show proof of vaccination. People are trying to figure out whether there's there's a different standard, I suppose, that's being applied to those on the court.

MASAI UJIRI: As I said, I believe so I think with the Raptors, we have we have paid attention to this. I think our players have been very, very responsible and I believe we're slightly close to one hundred percent as an organisation,

MG: as a leader. How do you talk to your players if they have any hesitation about the vaccine's?

MASAI UJIRI: You know, I think you put them in contact with experts. I mean, with these things, because they are they are touchy subjects for some some rich religious beliefs, some it's just the nature of how these may be, how these vaccines were made, the timing, all those things, you know, they see honestly, like we just have to lead them to the health and scientific experts, you know, like to explain to them, you know, like answer a lot of questions. And and hopefully then it gets them to a point where they feel comfortable with it for themselves and their families.

MG: We've missed a lot over the course of the pandemic. And I mean, there are big things, there are big personal moments that people have missed. But I think one of the things people have missed is like the collective experience, like the idea of being somewhere with other people that you don't know in a space and kind of being part of something larger than that. What do you think we have missed from your perspective when it comes to this team not playing on its home court in front of its home fans?

MASAI UJIRI: If I was to so much and they are people that have gone through so much, I have something to say to people that have gone through so much worse than we are. We as an NBA team have gone through. I want to respect that. I want to say it's not been easy for a lot of people or most people being confined in a space sometimes very, very limited with what you can do. There will be a lot of mental health things that we have to deal with after, during and after this period of time when I'm shifted to the basketball court. And again, I say, with all due respect to what everybody has gone through, what we went through in terms of the NBA, in terms of basketball was a disaster for us and it was a disaster. We want no part of that at all because I compare it to what the twenty nine teams and what we as one team went through, we were displaced, you know, like and it's the maybe the things that we take for granted. You know, I remember coming back during the pandemic for one of the things, one of the things I had to come back to in the country and going to visit Scotiabank and actually seeing walking through with empty chairs everywhere things. And I felt it. I really felt it, you know, like I missed it immensely because and this is our home. That interaction you have with people, you know, every day, there's nothing there's nothing like it, you know, and the whole time we were away, we just we knew that it was something temporary you end up doing. And we treated it that way. You felt that way where you like and let's get over this quickly and get back, like to where we are. You've seen the excitement. We kind of see the excitement in the players being whole, being around what they know to support the fans and being being comfortable. And to be honest, they are doing it honestly. This is how they feel. You know, like why not doing it? Because we were treated badly where we were. It just wasn't us, you know, like we were not treated badly at all. Tampa was unbelievable to us, the sports people and the people there. But, yeah, we appreciate it. We're glad we're glad to be home. Lastly, I will say I'm going back and doing Giants of Africa made me realise, you know, how much you really forget the interaction, like for those kids to see us, even though limited in what we can do with limited numbers and trying to abide by the rules. You could just see that interaction has changed, changes the way people feel and what people have missed.

MG: How good this team going to be.

MASAI UJIRI: You know, I'm going to be learning, you know, building a building team, young talent and the leadership group, I'm friends with Jean-Pascal and Gary Trent, they all young and healthy, young. You know, when you when you look at them in the in the in the MBA, I know coverage yet. I'm Fred. I've won a championship. I've played a good part in the last team, but twenty six years old or just one. Twenty three. Twenty four years old. They're still puppies. And then you go to Barnes and Delano and Gary Trent and all these guys, you know, like but I know how these guys compete. You know, like I said, we'll be there competing on growing and there will be growing pains through this. I can assure you guys that. And just be patient with this team and watch them grow because there is a lot of talent and I know they are very competitive. I will figure it out. I also believe in the nurse and our coaching staff and what they can do with a team like this.

MG: We're glad you're home and it's always great to talk to you. Masai, I thank you very much.

MASAI UJIRI: Thanks a lot. It's great to see you, man. Thank you, Mr.

MG: President and vice chairman of the Toronto Raptors and Presidents of Giants of Africa. That is The Current for this Monday. Coming up next on CBC Radio one, it's Kieu. Tom Power will be speaking with Billy Idol, Billy Idol from the 1980s pop icon. Lots to talk about there. We'll listen for that coming up in just a few moments. You go back a little bit earlier than the 80s and you hit the heyday of another rocker. This one, a Canadian icon. Randy Bachman cemented his place in music history in the 60s and 70s with the guests who then Bachman Turner overdrive. Today, Mr. Randy Bachman turned 78 years old. Happy birthday, Sir. So to celebrate, but a Bachman Turner overdrive for your Monday. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. We'll see you tomorrow.

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