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The AIH Transcript For September 23, 2021

[hosts]Carol Off, Chris Howden[/hosts]

CAROL Off: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[music: theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

CO: Last Chance Saloon. An Alberta bar and grill closes, opens, closes and is preparing to reopen yet again with more security -- after a wave of backlash against its policy requiring customers to show proof of vaccination.

CH: Inoculate for work. A Windsor, Ontario hospital suspends more than 100 employees for failing to comply with its vaccination policy. And our guest shares what she's learned about why some staff aren't getting the shots.

CO: Shameless plugs. In the European Union, the commission proposes a new law that would require smartphone companies to use just a single charging method instead of the dozens of different cables currently tangled up in our drawers.

CH: Gone but not forgiven. Helmut Oberlander, who worked with a Nazi death squad, has died in Canada despite a long struggle to deport him. And our guest says that's a failure of Canada's system for dealing with accused war criminals.

CO: Finally seeing the big picture. Yesterday in Mogadishu, Somalis got to do something they haven't been able to do for 30 years: watch a movie in a theatre.

CH And… oh, to be a fly on the walrus. After more than a month without a sighting, it seemed like maybe Wally the walrus was done playing tourist. But now we know where he is -- even if we're still not sure why he's there?

CH: As It Happens, the Thursday edition. Radio that figures we ought to assemble a tusk force.

[music: theme]

Part 1

Bar And Grill COVID Closure

Guest: Aleesha Gosling

CH: Langdon, Alberta's Firehouse Bar and Grill, was desperate to get back to business. This week, its owners planned to require proof of vaccinations and allow customers back in the dining room. Then came the harassment from people who oppose proof of vaccination rules. So the bar shut down again. Today, the Firehouse is planning to give reopening another try -- but with beefed-up security. Aleesha Gosling is the restaurant's co-owner. We reached her in Langdon, Alberta.

CO: Aleesha, at what point did the harassment get to be so bad that you decided to shut down the restaurant?

ALEESHA GOSLING: A couple of days after, we announced that we were going to go ahead with the Restriction Exemption Program. You know, the messages started... they started coming in quite a bit heavier. Some of them were in person. Most of them were online. Some of them were phone calls. And we were just feeling uncomfortable.

CO: Can you give us some examples of the messages you're getting and the calls you were getting?

AG: People were calling us sheep, and we should be ashamed to live in Canada. You know, Canada's a free country, and we are taking away people's rights, and we're discriminating, and we're as bad as racist, and we should watch our backs.

CO: Watch our backs. What do you think I mean by that?

AG: I don't know exactly what that means. We didn't get any death threats or anything like that. You know, social media kind of blew that out of proportion. But just... just very angry, hateful messages. And it's not like we're scared for our lives or anything, but we are not wanting that backlash to be put on our staff. We don't want our staff to be afraid to come to work and deal with that type of confrontation.

CO: Did some of these messages make your staff feel unsafe?

AG: Yeah, it made us all feel just... yes, definitely

CO: This Restrictions Exemption Program that you decided to... that you were going to implement. What does that mean? What were you doing that annoyed people so much?

AG: That they have to prove that they're vaccinated to enter the building?

CO: There's no vaccine passport at this point, is there?

AG: No, there's not. So, I mean, that kind of leaves us in a position where, well, what exactly are we looking at? Are people bringing in a piece of paper? Are people bringing in a card? Are people showing us this on our phone? Like, it's very unclear what it is that we're supposed to be looking at?

CO: So what are your plans then? Are you… you're wanting to reopen again today. What have you done in order to make that happen?

AG: We've hired full-time security. A licenced security team will be in place all the time at the Firehouse, at the doors for when people come in. They will be responsible for checking the vaccination and dealing with people that don't want to comply.

CO: So what does it say to you that your restaurant needs a security team in order to be open?

AG: It says to me that the world has become extremely divided. That people don't understand that we don't really have a choice. You know, we've been given the choice to... to comply or close our doors. So as far as we're concerned, that's... that's not really a choice. Like, let's... let's close our doors and put he Firehouse out of business or comply. Like, that's, like, there's a gun to your head, you make the choice. It's not a... it's not really a choice.

CO: But should the choice... should all the options just be some that you have to choose between? Or do you think that the patrons and the people who might go to the restaurant... what responsibility do other people have at this point?

AG: That's kind of a hard question to answer. I... I mean, I think everybody has the right to... to... to not agree. Everybody has the right to say I don't want to show my medical information. And that's fine. So then, you know, you're choosing not to come to the restaurant, but don't attack us for making the decision that we have to implement this, otherwise, we're closing our doors.

CO: What's it been like for your restaurant during this... the COVID pandemic?

AG: Well, we're still playing catch up from the lockdown's. That was a huge financial burden. But overall, we've had tremendous support from the community. And when we were able to reopen our doors, we were busy, and we were successful. And it's... it's a wonderful business. The Firehouse is a great place to work. It's a great place to go. And so, for us to shut our doors this week in particular because we weren't feeling confident or safe to open, it has been... it's been disheartening because we are doing so well, and we are so successful. And it... it's... like, who wants to shut their doors when their business is doing so well? It's not a choice that we wanted to do? So overall, I mean, [slight chuckle] it's definitely been hard with the lockdowns and the financial burden. But overall, the supports and... and working with people and working with staff and everything has been... it's been challenging, but it hasn't been... you know, it hasn't been extremely devastating until now.

CO: But if you have to pay for a security team in order to open, does that... what does that do to the... the financial burden that you are already facing with with all the other restrictions?

AG: Yeah, it definitely makes it a lot worse, especially after having to close for a couple of days. So we're… we're already…. we've already, you know, lost out on a bunch of sales, a bunch of money this week already. And now, on top of it, we have a much bigger bill that we're going to have to pay on a regular basis just to keep the doors open.

CO: You know that other places are... it's the government that is mandating that people will have to show a passport... show proof of vaccination in order to come into venues like yours. That... that it's not... it's not the restaurants that make these choices to have these... these programs, but it's mandated. Would that make a difference if Alberta itself would declare that and take the leadership on this?

AG: Honestly, I'm not totally sure. I mean, I guess it would be easier for us to say, you know, we don't have to make this choice. It's now a bylaw. However, I believe the people that believe that freedom is being taken away are still going to feel the exact same way, whether it's us putting into place or the government putting in place.

CO: So they'll be just as angry?

AG: Maybe some people would be a little bit more understanding, saying, well, they really don't have a choice because it is now a bylaw. But what we're feeling is the people that are morally against this are morally against it for... as a whole, no matter who puts it in place.

CO: All right. Aleesha, we will leave it there. And I wish you a successful business in these coming days. I'm sorry about all the restrictions. But thanks for speaking with us.

AG: OK, you betcha. Thank you so much.

CH: Aleesha Gosling is co-owner of the Firehouse Bar and Grill. We reached her in Langdon, Alberta. And head to our webpage for more on this story. You can find us at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[music: electronic]

A Universal Charger

Guest: Róża Thun

CH: Róża Thun scored a victory today in her fight with Apple. Ms. Thun is a Polish member of the European Parliament. And her issue with the tech giant might sound familiar if you have a few electronic devices around the house. The issue is all those cords you need if you want to power up your phone, laptop, and whatever else needs a charge. In Brussels today, Ms. Thun led the EU in announcing plans to replace all those different cords with a single standard -- the USB-C. That's a move that Apple has spent years trying to block. We reached Róża Thun in Krakow, Poland.

CO: Ms. Thun, why do we need a universal power record for our electronics?

ROZA THUN: This demand is present -- has been present -- for many, many years already. In fact, all users, especially of cell phones, demand the harmonization of charges to facilitate our life. Not to have drawers full of cables, charges, etc., that we never use. [CO laughs] Be obliged to buy a new charger with... with every device we buy. So one reason is just comfort. Second reason is to produce less e-waste. I don't know about Canada, but I know that in the European Union, an average citizen produces, per year, around 16, I think, kilo's -- kilograms -- of electronic waste, which is incredible. And we all struggle for climate, against climate change and against plastic waste.

CO: And I'm sure that people listening to this, they absolutely identify, especially with the drawers full and basketful of all those cords. You can't even remember why you have them. Now, there are different ones, just some of them are. Apple has for its handsets, uses a Lightning charger. There's other phones, have a micro USB, which has a little shape at the end of it. The European Union is proposing the USB-C be the universal charger. Why that particular one?

RT: Now, this is very broadly used already now, I think most of the devices have this UISB-C. It can be used for many devices, not only for cell phones. So that gives the biggest chance that it can be used for many devices, for many mobile electronic devices. And the whole idea is to have a charger for various devices, mobile electronic devices, not only telephones. And experts say that this is the USB-C. This is the issue of the European Commission. Our idea, the European Parliament, we want a solution for one charger in order, exactly, to have a more comfortable life, less waste and cheaper solution. We will not be obliged to buy a charger with every new device because one will... one for all, one will be for all devices. And USB-C looks like best solution for this plan.

CO: One of the big holdouts, I understand, is, of course, the tech giant Apple. They have required their customers to buy special apple power cords for almost everything. Today, the company said, and this is a quote, we remain concerned that strict regulation mandating just one type of connector stifles innovation rather than encouraging it, which in turn will harm consumers in Europe and around the world. How do you respond?

RT: They have been saying this all the time, that we stop innovation. They should innovate. And if... if Apple proposes at a time a better solution than USB-C, then, of course, we can talk about it. And it's not said that USB-C must be the only challenger for the coming centuries. Technology changes. And, of course, we should... all companies should take part in... in looking for good, better and best solution. Welcome. But that doesn't mean that we must take part in a race in production of waste, electronic waste. And that's what happens until now. And Apple, I'm sure, understands this. And if not, they will have to understand it that they must cooperate with others and not force people who buy an Apple device to buy a new charger because Apple doesn't want to cooperate with the rest of the producers.

CO: OK, so what are the steps now before this can actually... actually happen and we can have this universal power port, at least you guys can in Europe? What else has to happen?

RT: First, it will take a certain time because the way for the legislation is such. First, we asked the European Commission to propose a law. The European Commission proposes a solution. Now we will work on it in the European Parliament, also in the European Council. And we will have to agree on the solution. And once it becomes a law, within a week, it has to be voted in the council, and it has to be voted in the European Parliament. It goes back to the commission, and the commission sends this law or introduces this law in all member states. And then, after, I think, two years later, companies have to adapt.

CO: All right. So this is going to happen in the European Union at some point in the future. But is it just for Europe, or do you think it will lead to other jurisdictions, including Canada, seeing the same thing?

RT: I mean, I... frankly speaking, I believe that it will be a great success. Once we have one charger and produce less electronic waste. And the consumers are happy that they have one charger for all electronic devices, mobile electronic devices. It will facilitate a life, be more economical and... and more ecological. And so I hope it will be, [laughing] so to say, contagious. I hope very much that the rest of the world will do the same thing once... once the success is known and seen. And surely, it will be a success.

CO: All right. We will be watching for this contagion. [chuckling] And it sounds like something that's inevitable. Ms. Thun, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

RT: And all the best. Thank you very much.

CO: Goodnight.

RT: Goodnight.

CH: Róża Thun is Polish member of the European Parliament, and a member of its consumer protection committee. We reached her in Krakow, Poland.

[music: disco funk?]

First Somali Movie Theatre

Guest: Kaif Jama

CH: In any movie theatre anywhere, there's always an excited hush when the lights go down. But at a cinema in Mogadishu yesterday, there was a once-in-a-generation thrill in the audience.

SOUNDCLIP

[music: A tense growing chime]

[an explosion, birds chirping, men speak Somali. A woman speak Somali to the men]

CH: Yesterday, when people in Somalia got a chance to watch the film, Hoos, meaning Shadow, it was a historic moment. Because for the last 30 years of war and terrorism, there hasn't been a public theatre where anyone could watch a movie. But now, the only cinema left standing in the country is up and running. Kaif Jama wrote, and acts, in the two films that played at The National Theatre in Mogadishu. We reached her in Mogadishu.

CO: Kaif, can you describe that moment when all these people came into the theatre to watch your films?

KAIF JAMA: It was really amazing. And most of the people, really, half of them, they were like older generation. They just came to have the same experience that they had in the theatre before. So they just came to watch, you know? They did not even know about me. They do not even know what movies I’m making. And most of the other people were some of my fans that used to watch my movies before and were really very excited. So I was so happy. I was so overwhelmed. And I interacted with everyone, had conversations with half of the people. It was really amazing.

CO: Were there people who came who had never been in a movie theatre in Mogadishu before?

KJ: Yeah, actually. And so many youths that I my own age, like, all the kids from I think from 90's up to, like, right now, they've never been to the theatre. Since... I think, since 1990 up to now, there was no Somali child that was in the theatre. So there's so many people that were not... were never been here before. And this is their first time. And the older generation before that, like, from 1987 was the last time they had a live show in the theatre. There were people who were there, like from that time, from that era basically. And they were so excited.

CO: So that... so those young people who are being in a theatre, an actual movie house in Mogadishu, and seeing Somali films, seeing you and seeing films made about and from Somalis. What was that experience like for them? What did they tell you?

KJ: One of the movies was a horror movie and the other one was a comedy movie. And so basically, a lot of them did not relate to the horror movies. And I don't think they are that fan of horror right now for Somali people. They really related to the comedy, though. And I think because they experience some disturbance everyday and some problems in daily life, that they really just want comedy. They want to laugh, you know? They don't care about such stuff. They don't want to watch horror movies. So when they watched the horror movie they like... they did... some of them do not even flinch. They were like, oh! So it's just scary, you know? [chuckle] it didn't mean a lot to them. They were not scared that much. But the comedy one, they were laughing. They wer so laughing. They were like, we love comedy, please make longer movies, you know, since they were both short films. Please make, you know, longer movies, make comedy. [both chuckle] Like, they're asking for, like, just comedy, you know?

CO: So the two films that played one, is Hoos? [whose] is that it? H-O-O-S?

KJ: Yeah, Hoos. [hose]

CO: Hoos.

KJ: Meaning shadow.

CO: One is Hoos and the other is Date From Hell. Can you tell us a bit about the stories in those two movies?

KJ: So Hoos is meaning shadow in English. It’s a horror movie basically based on a Somali... a young Somali girl that is so westernized, you know, and so influenced by Western culture. And a Somali mom is also and really influenced by her own culture. And she likes her culture. So the culture clashes between her and her mom, you know, and how they don't understand each other. So her mom kicks her out of the house. And because of the new place that she's in, and she cannot afford a place, she just takes a random place. And she faces problems there in the house. There’s other beings that live in the house more other than her, you know?

CO: And the comedy is Date from Hell?

KJ: Yeah. And the comedy is Date from Hell. Basically, just based on a young boy that is a homeless boy, but with a lot of dreams, you know? And with a lot of hope.

CO: And so you... as a screenwriter, you have been making... writing about stories about Somalia, but you didn't grow up in Somalia. So this is for you an opportunity to show your work inside the country where your family comes from and to do it in your language, right?

KJ: Yeah. So we moved from Somalia when I was super young, but the Somali community always living together, you know, and you hear stories. And I love stories so much since I was a young child. What I would do is I would write stories and I would call the kids in the neighbourhood, you know, and put them in a circle, tell them stories, you know, because we didn't had a TV. Back in Kenya, we lived at one point in a refugee camp. So I'll tell them stories, you know. And then the second day, I would say come back for part two, you know? [both laugh] Come back for part two tomorrow and I'll tell them again. So this is my stories. This is how I used to create my stories. And there was this old man one time, he saw me and he was like, you know, you should start writing and you can make movies. I like... I watched these stories in my head. I didn't know I can put them on the screen, you know? I was like I think that's a great idea. I was 11 years old at the time. I was like I think that's a great idea. You know, I will make movies. And ever since that, I was like you know what? I'm going to make movies. I'm going to be the youngest Somali filmmaker ever.

CO: And it did come true!

KJ: [laughing] Yeah, I’m 24, though. [both laugh] But, hey, it's worth it!

CO: [chuckling] But given that people who are... people in Mogadishu have known and seen a lot of violence. And they have seen al-Shabab, have seen warlords fighting, have seen these buildings destroyed and bombed. Were people nervous to come to the theatre? Did they tell you... was there any reluctance to be in a building that has been under attack before?

KJ: Yeah, actually. And my mom, she came just for me. She came for me so she can watch the movie. And then she was like she was told by people that do not go there, you know, it's going to be a dangerous situation. And my mom did not go. She was like, you know what? I don't want me and you to die together. I was like, OK, Mom, I'm going to go either way. And so my mom stayed back, actually. And everyone came. But a lot of people could have came because the theatre can actually seat like 6,000 people. So all those people could have came. Like, literally. But they do not because they were really scared and they were nervous that something's going to happen there. But it was safe. It's really safe, though. Nothing happened. Everyone was happy. Everyone who came there went home safe. And I was not nervous at all. Usually, I cannot predict the future. But usually, I kind of feel some type of way when I feel like something is going to happen. And I didn't feel that. So I needed to not even worry. I did not even feel, like, nervousness. And anyone I saw that was feeling nervous, I was like, nothing is going to happen, I promise you.

CO: What does your mother think of your success? Of being able to show your films in Mogadishu, in that theatre?

KJ: She was so happy, you know? She was really happy. She was watching all the news and stuff. She was like, where can I watch the movie? I was like, Mom, you missed it. You're not going to watch it. [laughing] So she should really watch it. But... and she watched all the news and stuff, and she was really happy. She was like, you did a good job. I'm proud of you. Even though she doesn't like movies. She's always hoping I become a doctor or something one day.

CO: [chuckling] I'm… I’m really happy for you, Kaif. [laughing] I hope your mother is happy for you someday, and recognizes what an accomplishment this is to get these films and to see them... for people to see them in Mogadishu. Well done. Thank you.

KJ: Thank you so much. Thank you.

CH: Kaif Jama wrote, and acts in, both films that played yesterday in Somalia -- at the only cinema still operating in the country. We reached her in Mogadishu. And you can find more on this story on our webpage at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[music: electronic]

FOA: Where’s Wally

CH: You've probably got an old friend like Wally. You lost touch after high school but you still follow them on Facebook. And they pop up in your news feed every few months -- and they don't appear to have a job or any kind of responsibility other than travelling the world at their leisure. It's okay to live vicariously through that friend -- even if he's a walrus. The world was introduced to Wally the walrus back in March. The Arctic animal was already on the first leg, or flipper, of his summer vacation, floating around the coast of Ireland, care-free. Carol spoke with five-year-old Mimi Houlihan, and her father Alan, after they spotted Wally near their home.

AH: It was ginormous. And it reached up out of the water and it jumped up on the rock and we could see its big tusks. It did a little dance for us. [MH and CO laugh]

CO: And you watched the Walrus do a little dance. What else did the Walrus do, Mimi?

MH: He was relaxing and having a sunbathe, I think.

AH: And they're just not seen in Ireland ever. So we, I think, were the first positive sighting of a walrus in Ireland.

CH: It might be extremely rare to see a walrus in Ireland. But as Mimi wisely pointed out, Wally looked extremely relaxed sunbathing, and in no hurry to get home. That said, scientists assumed Wally had accidently hitched a ride on some ice after falling asleep, and was just lost. That was the theory until he was spotted again, even further south. All summer, we've been on Wally's trail. Since Ireland, the tusked traveller has turned up in Spain, England, and France. And this weekend, after nearly a month without any sightings, Wally was spotted in Iceland. Now, let's hope that means he is finally heading home to the Arctic. Whatever happens, like any good traveller, we at least know he's bound to go with the floe.

[music: pop beat]

Part 2

Windsor Nurses

Guest: Karen Riddell

CH: Windsor Regional Hospital in southwestern Ontario is missing some staff today. Over 100 employees have been suspended without pay after the hospital's vaccination policy went into effect. They had until yesterday to get their first dose of vaccine unless they had an approved exemption. Now, suspended employees are facing termination. Karen Riddell is chief nursing executive and chief operating officer at Windsor Regional Hospital. We reached her in Windsor.

CO: Ms. Riddell, your hospital said that a little under four per cent of the staff have not been vaccinated. So can you just give us a sense of what kinds of jobs these people do?

KAREN RIDDELL: Sure. So, the 140 staff, about half of them would be in clinical roles. So looking across nursing, labs, diagnostic imaging, pharmacy, respiratory therapy, and then our other half of the staff would be like dietary, housekeeping, facilities, other support services. So about... about half and half, really.

CO: And doctors and nurses?

KR: So in the clinical staff, the nurses would be in there. Our physicians, so our professional staff, including physicians and midwives, we had seven of those that were included separately. So there's... there was 140 of our employees, our Windsor Regional employees, and seven professional staff that are privileged in the organisation.

CO: We should just point out because 140 sounds like... well, it is a lot of people. But 96 per cent of the employees in your hospital are fully vaccinated, right?

KR: Yes, that's correct. So we have over 3,400 employees that are fully vaccinated. And 534, or 99 per cent, of our professional staff, so our physicians and midwives, are vaccinated. So the number of unvaccinated is actually a very small percentage. And very happy to say when we started just yesterday, we had 140 of our employees that were put off on an unpaid leave of absence. That number is down to 119 now as more people submit proof of vaccination. So we're very hopeful that by the time our deadline rolls around, that will be, if not at 100 per cent, very, very close to that.

CO: What do these employees... what did they say in the conversations that you've had with them? Why... why have they not been vaccinated?

KR: I think that health care workers and people that work in a hospital are no different than the general public. So I think, you know, the most popular reasons that people are hesitant to receive a vaccine usually revolve around, you know, they're maybe not having enough information around the vaccine's efficacy. You know, how long is it going to last? And why am I going to get it if I can still get COVID-19? And, you know, maybe being concerned related to underlying medical conditions. So what we've done is we've really tried to focus our support for those staff in addressing their individual concerns. So if they have medical concerns, you know, assisting them in getting either going to see their primary care physician or assisting them with getting a referral to, say, an allergist that might be able to assist them with having a safe vaccination experience. And if it's concerns around efficacy of the vaccine, certainly providing them with the research to support their particular concern. So we've done a lot of education over the last few months in preparation for this policy. So... and we've been able very successfully, prior to our deadline of yesterday, assist many people in getting their questions answered and feeling comfortable with the vaccination process and actually getting vaccinated.

CO: You said that these... these people are no different, the reasons are no different than those of the general public. But doesn't it surprise you? I mean, the general public may not have as much access to the scientific background, the knowledge of what's behind these vaccines. People working in a hospital environment, do they not have better knowledge? Are they not more informed or have an opportunity to be more informed?

KR: Yeah, and certainly they do have the access to the information. But I think just from a humanistic perspective like people are still exposed to social media and, you know, what their families and their friends are saying. So I think that, you know, we continue to work with those people and provide them with the information that they do need to make an informed decision. Now, will we ever be able to convince everyone that it's the right thing for them to do? Probably not. But we've been trying to work with people as individuals and with their individual concerns to really... to get them vaccinated. We want to keep them on staff. You know, they are valuable as a resource and as a staff member in the hospital and to our community. But, at the end of the day, people are going to make their own decisions, and we'll have to deal with that as... as it arises.

CO: So you think that the 140 employees who are unvaccinated at this point, as you say, it's down to 119. And you're hoping that all of them come over to the other side before the deadline. That they're doing it because you're giving them information, they're getting educated. But do you think they're... they're getting vaccinated, or will get vaccinated because they're, oh, they're learning something they didn't know before or because they're afraid of losing their jobs?

KR: Well, I'm sure some of that may come into play for people. I mean, I can't speak for individuals' reasons. You know, we've seen in the community, for example, that, you know, there was a big rush to get vaccinated when the provincial rules changed around having to provide proof of vaccination to sit inside a restaurant. So everybody has different motivators for what is going to change their behaviour. For some people, they may decide that a job is not going to be their motivator for that, and other people will. Certainly, what we want to ensure is that people do have access to accurate information in order to make a good decision for themselves. I guess everybody has to make their own choice at the end of the day.

CO: Well, losing your job is a pretty big choice to make. So I wonder --

KR: Yeah, it certainly is. And I think, I guess when we're looking at it if you want to take it back to the discussion around the provincial rules, when you think about if we're going to require proof of vaccination to sit inside a restaurant, it's pretty challenging to justify why you would not require proof of vaccination to work in a hospital and care for people that are immune-compromised, that are at risk. Certainly, none of us that work in health care want to have a discussion with someone that their colleague or a patient has potentially been exposed to COVID from someone that is unvaccinated that we've, you know, employed in the organization. So, again, we want to do the most that we can to protect our patients, to protect our staff, so that we can maintain our capacity and get through this wave.

CO: And just finally, these people have been suspended without pay. At what point will they be fired?

KR: People that have been put off to have to get their first dose of the vaccine by October the 7th. And if they have not received their first dose by that time, if they have not been granted an exemption, then they will, unfortunately, be terminated.

CO: We will leave it there. Ms, Riddell, thank you.

KR: Absolutely. Thank you.

CH: Karen Riddell is chief nursing executive and chief operating officer at Ontario's Windsor Regional Hospital. That's where we reached her.

[music: horns!!!]

Iraq Vet

CH: Attendees showed up to hear George W. Bush's thoughts on, quote, "eight years in the Oval Office ... the power of freedom, the role of faith, and other pressing issues." What they got was something else entirely.

SOUNDCLIP

MIKE PRYSNER: [shouting] Mr. Bush, when are you going to apologize for the million Iraqis that are dead because you lied? [sneering in the crowd] You lied about weapons of mass destruction. You lied about Connections to 9/11.

GEORGE W BUSH: You said you'd behave.

MP: You sent me to Iraq. You sent me to Iraq in 2003. My friends are dead.

[crosstalk]

MP: You killed people. You lied. A million Iraqis are dead because you lied. My friends are dead because you lied. You need to apologize. Apologize.

CH: That's the sound of Iraq war veteran Mike Prysner confronting former U.S. president George W. Bush at a "Distinguished Speakers Series" event in Beverly Hills this week. Mr. Prysner served as a corporal in Iraq and is now an anti-war activist and co-founder of March Forward! -- an organization that encourages active-duty personnel in the U.S. to resist deployment. After he confronted Mr. Bush, he spoke with the podcast, "The Socialist Program", about how he decided what to say.

SOUNDCLIP

MP: You know, I knew I was going to have very limited time. And that our strategy was to be able to have more time. You know, we bought seats that were in the very middle of the row, anticipating that that would lengthen the time it would take security to get to me to drag me out. But there is all empty seats next to me. And so they just had a... security had a clear shot to me as soon as I started disrupting. So the idea of... of demanding that he apologize was actually inspired by someone named Thomas Young, who was an Iraq war veteran who was paralyzed early in the Iraq war. And, you know, once he came home, was a fighter in the antiwar movement. And he eventually succumbed to his wounds. I mean, he died in 2014 from complications from his injury. He was an anti-war fighter, and particularly against Bush. And was always demanding that Bush meet with him and would go to places like Bush's ranch and so forth with a sign demanding that Bush meet with him and talk to him. And right before he died, he wrote a letter, what was to be his last letter, knowing that his death was imminent. And in that letter, he basically says, you know, my day of reckoning is upon me. Yours will come. And my one wish is that before your time on Earth ends, you have the moral courage to stand before the world and especially the Iraqi people and beg for your forgiveness. And so it was in that spirit, that message I wanted to relay. I guess I basically thought what, you know, family members of Iraqis who are killed and Americans who were killed would want. And an apology is a small place to start. But just thinking back to Thomas Young's letter and how much it impacted me, that's what inspired it.

CH: Mike Prysner is an Iraq war veteran turned anti-war activist. He spoke with the podcast "The Socialist Program" after confronting George W. Bush at an event in California this week.

[music: acoustic guitar]

Helmut Oberlander

Guest: Len Rudner

CH: Helmut Oberlander was an interpreter for a Nazi death squad. But he didn't tell Canadian officials that when he moved here after the Second World War. After the truth came out, Ottawa spent more than 25 years trying to expel him. Mr. Oberlander died this week at the age of 97 -- before that could finally happen. Len Rudner spent years following Helmut Oberlander's case. He's part of the Anti-Hate Network's advisory committee. We reached him in Thornhill, Ontario.

CO: Mr. Rudner, how did you feel when you heard that Helmut Oberlander had died a few days ago at his home in Ontario?

LEN RUDNER: I felt... I felt disappointed because, once again, the system of justice in Canada failed to properly deal with the challenge of a wartime Nazi enabler. Mr. Oberlander should not have died at home in his bed in Canada. He should have been removed from the country many years before.

CO: So after 26 years, the federal government was, I guess, in the final stage of deporting him, stripping him of his citizenship and deporting him. First of all, what does it say to you that it took so long just to get to the point where he might have been deported?

LR: Well, it says a lot of things. None of them, unfortunately, very good. My mentor at Canadian Jewish Congress, he advised the RCMP in 1963 of the presence of Mr. Oberlander in Canada. So in actual fact, it's not 26 years. It's probably closer to 50 years. And it happened because the systems of government simply didn't care. They didn't... it was old history. It wasn't their history. It wasn't their problem. People didn't want to open up old wounds. I mean, the possibilities are virtually endless. But it comes down to government inertia and laws, which, frankly, provided ample opportunity for Mr. Oberlander's lawyers to make use of the system to drag things out, to slow things down, to play almost a game of bait and switch, where they distracted the courts with issues that had nothing to do with the basic findings of the case.

CO: But there was a public view that... that... he… he was an old man when he died. He was 97. He was hard of hearing. He was… he had all the problems that an older person has. And so this idea that what you just said a moment ago, why not just let it go? I mean, it's years ago. He's an old man. Why are we going after this?

LR: Well, I suppose, you know, the... the emotional answer is when all of this started, whether you take your starting point in 1963 or whether you take it in 1986 or 2000, it's your choice. But he wasn't 97 years old at any of those points. And he wasn't 97 years old when he acted as an interpreter for a mobile killing unit. The fact that he was old and infirm now does not excuse the fact that he was none of those things when he was complicit. And that, I think, is what we have to remember. It does us credit, I think, that we have some compassion for a man who was old and infirm. But it does us no credit if we forget all the things he did. He shouldn't get a pass because his lawyers were able to successfully run out the clock.

CO: But let's look at... to remind people of what the story is of Mr. Oberlander. And he did eventually admit to having been a translator when he was 17 years old for a Nazi death squad, part of Einsatzgruppen. And during the German invasion of the Soviet Union, where millions of people were killed, millions of people and Jews were killed, and that he was translating for them. But he said he was coerced. So, what evidence is it that he took part in the killings?

LR: Well, to be clear, Mr. Overlander was not found to be guilty because he was... because he pulled the trigger. But the mere fact that he was a member of a mobile killing unit and that he was complicit in the activities of that unit were sufficient to make him inadmissible to Canada. And Justice MacKay said that if he would have fully disclosed his wartime activities, he would not have been admitted to Canada. And he would not have been granted citizenship. That's why he should have been removed from Canada. That's why he never should have been allowed into Canada in the first place. And that has always been the issue. Every other issue, frankly, is a distraction. But what is known is that the mobile killing units, long before there were gas chambers and crematoria, in a hole caused by bullets killed over one and a half million Jews -- Jewish men, women and children. They stripped them naked, they marched them to the edge of the pit, and they shot them into the pit. And at every step of the way, as these German-speaking killers moved into Russia, they needed people who could translate. And what would a translator be saying in a mobile killing unit? Walk this way, please. Remove your clothing. Put it there. So for Mr. Oberlander to say, as he did variously, I was never a member of the unit. I never heard about Einsatzgruppen. I don't know what they are. And if I did know what they are, I certainly don't know what was going on around me. And if I knew what was going on around me, I wasn't there anyway, and I never did it. I mean, it's... it's nonsense.

CO: So what does it say to you? I mean, you couldn't be charged criminally. He admitted that he was part of the translator. He did the work. And yet, it took decades to even try to deport him, and they never did. What needs to change, in your view?

LR: Well, I think we need an expedited system. We need a system that will simultaneously look at the facts but also ensure that when the facts are known, and especially in the case of Oberlander, where the basic facts, the reason for denationalization and deportation are never challenged. There's no reason for the process to take this long. It sends a terrible message, I think, not only to the community of survivors here in Canada. But it also sends a message to, you know, I think to the wider world. Because as genocide continues to happen, and as the genocidaire continue to look for places where they could potentially hide for justice, Canada's treatment over decades of Helmut Oberlanders suggests that, you know, if you're looking for a place where you can hide out, and if you're looking for a place where you can stay, even after you're found out, you know, there's no place like Canada.

CO: Mr. Rudner, we will leave it there. And I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

LR: Thank you, Carol. Stay safe.

CH: Len Rudner is an advisor to the Anti-Hate Network and a human rights consultant. He was in Thornhill, Ontario, north of Toronto.

[music: world music]

Sal The Shepard

CH: It's not that they're interchangeable, but most German shepherds look pretty much the same. However, Sal -- a canine living in Manitoba -- has a distinct look. Sal wears a vest -- and goggles. That's because he's blind. He lost his sight in June after being shot in the face. And since then, he's been cared for by volunteers who have been helping him heal and adapt. Pat Wicek and her husband live north of Winnipeg. They are currently fostering Sal. She spoke to the CBC about their foster pet.

SOUNDCLIP

PAT WICEK: When we first heard about Sal, we got online, and we thought, well, how are we going to help a blind dog? We've never dealt with a dog like this before. So we found out that you could get doggles… we call them doggles now. And we could also get a vest that say basically that he's a blind dog. He wears goggles and the vest when we go to Birds Hill. the doggles are more for safety for him. Because he can't see, he uses his nose so much. He's always got his face in the bushes. And he doesn't realize that you have to blink when he sees bushes coming. So they protect his eyes, so we don't get any more further injuries for him. But they actually work really, really good. Plus, it also... when people meet us, they see the sign, they see the goggles, they see the sign on his vest, and they know that he's a handicapped dog. And they... they know to approach a little bit more cautiously.

MARCY MARKUSA: Now, you take him to stores as well, Pat, is that right? Tell me where you go and why you do that?

PW: [laughing] We take him to the Home Hardware in Selkirk, the Canadian Tire in Selkirk, and we've also taken him to Peavey Mart in Winnipeg here. And it's more to get him used to his command for right, left, straight, backwards and stop because it teaches him to go in the right direction. And it also gets him, you know, familiar with being in different places. Plus all the people that he gets to meet, too, along the way, you know?

MM: [chuckling] I was going to ask, how did people react when they see him and his doggles and his vest?

PW: They're actually quite shocked. But then once they realize that he's a blind dog and that, you know, he's out there to meet people, they want to know his story right away. And so we, you know, we fill them in on the fact that he's blind and, you know, we're just training with him right now and trying to find him a home. And... and they're... they're very receptive to him.

MM: I can hear that you got some love for this animal, Pat.

PW: Just a little bit. [laughing]

MM: You enjoyed your fostering right now. Are you considering keeping him?

PW: You know what? If... if we could find him a perfect home, we will definitely be up for that. Otherwise, yes, we will probably end up being a foster family.

CH: That was Pat Wicek, Sal the shepherd's foster mom, speaking to CBC Winnipeg host Marcy Markusa.

[music: ambient]

Part 2

Saskatchewan ICUs

CH: Hospitals in Saskatchewan are overwhelmed because of a surge in COVID cases. So elective surgeries have been cancelled -- including almost any medical treatment outside emergencies -- that isn't related to COVID-19. With ICUs filling up with COVID patients, and the province's only children's hospital has even opened its intensive care beds to young adults. Jesse Andrews' son, Jackson, was scheduled to have throat surgery this week at Jim Patterson Children's Hospital. But it was cancelled. Ms. Andrews described what that means for her son.

SOUNDCLIP

JESSE ANDREWS: Jackson is a medically complex heart warrior, and he was supposed to have surgery to repair a submucosal cleft palate in his mouth. It's basically caused by just swallowing issues, nasal regurgitation. And currently, he has no speech. So he was supposed to receive a surgery to do a bunch of repair, fix all those issues in his throat. And potentially, he would be able to talk after the surgery or improve the communication that he currently has, which is none.

STEFANI LANGENEGGER: When were you told that it wasn't going to happen after all?

JA: We were... we were contacted on Monday. They said that because everything going on with COVID, there just wasn't enough staffing to staff the ORs. And if it wasn't surgery or trauma, they have to cancel all those surgeries. And she has no idea when they'll be able to rebook. It was very frustrating. We've been waiting about a year now. And we were just very excited the potential the surgery could do for Jackson and, you know, what it could fix for him and potentially give him the ability to start communicating better. And it's just very upsetting and frustrating that that's now delayed. And we have to wait, and we have no idea how long we'll be waiting again.

SL: What do you want others to know about this?

JA: Honestly, I think it comes down, for us anyways, that we just want people to get vaccinated because the majority of people in the hospital using the resources and getting COVID are the unvaccinated. So I just want people to help decrease the strain on the health care system by getting their vaccine. And then people like Jackson don't have to suffer. People... everyone who needs health care and surgeries can actually get it. I honestly feel like some people are just uneducated. Some people are scared of, you know, what the vaccines do and just don't know. So they're just putting it off. Or they just don't care. They don't know the reasoning. You know, they think it will just affect them, and they don't realize how drastically it is affecting others. It's making people who don't have the ability to get the vaccine like Jackson suffer.

CH: That was Jesse Andrews speaking to Stefani Langenegger, host of The Morning Edition in Regina today.

[music: carnival music]

Poland Mine

Guest: Maciej Konieczny

CH: There are a lot of major issues contributing to friction between Poland and the European Union. And the latest major issue involves miners. On Monday, the EU's court of justice slapped Poland with a daily fine of half a million euros for its refusal to close the Turow coal mine. The case was brought by neighbouring Czech Republic -- which argues that the mine has been detrimental to its environment. But the Polish government says the mine is a vital energy source -- and closing it is not an option. Maciej Konieczny is a Polish Member of Parliament for the opposition Razem, or "Together", Party. We reached him in Warsaw.

CO: Mr. Konieczny, what has been the response from the general public about this half-million euro daily fine in Poland?

MACIEJ KONIECZNY: You can see that people are very angry. You can see it on social media. We get a lot of letters from our voters. People are angry because they feel that because of the huge incompetence and stubbornness of our government, they will have to pay from their own pockets. Because obviously, government ministers won’t pay this fine. But every one of us from our taxes.

CO: You're saying that the people are angry because they feel the government has mishandled this. But are the people... do people support the mine itself? Do they support this coal mine?

MK: I think it's kind of obvious that we could easily avoid it because it's not only a matter of the mine working. We need this mine for our... the power plant connected with the mine comes with the seven per cent of our energy overall. But I think it's just a huge failure of Polish diplomacy. We could avoid this situation with a little more dialogue. We could reach agreement with Czech Republic. It's just a matter of... of huge failure, of our diplomacy of... of our government. It's not that we couldn't pay less or just reach an agreement with Czech Republic.

CO: OK, but I just want to make sure we understand. Do you support this open-pit mine that's near the Czech border?

MK: For now, we need this mine and the power plant just for our energy system. That's a thing. So it's not like it's obvious that we should close it to avoid the fines, but the thing is, we should avoid the situation we're in. Even before the verdict, the government was sure that they will win that case. Just after that, they said that they already reached agreement with Czech Republic. And we... we won't pay anything. And it looks like all the way around. They were in pure denial.

CO: But what was the compromise you think that could have been made? I mean, it's clear that the... both the Czech Republic and the Germans are really very unhappy about this mine continuing to operate. It uses... its into the water table. It is... it's burning a very high carbon coal, this brown coal. It creates air pollution. It creates CO2 emissions. I mean, what did you think... what compromise could there have been with the countries who are asking for this fine against you?

MK: First thing we have to understand, there are also German mines much bigger than the Polish ones in the same region. The claim itself, it's about the water levels on Czech side. Czechs claim that because of the mine operating. They have low... lower water levels, and they lost some access to clean water on Czech side. So the possible agreement could be compensations or some Polish investments on the Czech side to help with the water situations. And, as I understand, Czech side, we're ready to reach that kind of compromise. But there was no wheel of dialogue on Polish side. So just because of this stubbornness and... and... and kind of denial, being sure that nothing bad can happen in the court. And later, we are in this situation, we have to pay huge sums of money, so.

CO: And you want the mine to continue to operate until when?

MK: is not a matter of wanting. Obviously, I want Poland to... to get out of coal energy, basically. But for ten and more years, it has to operate. It's not lie... it's not like we have the or the alternative. For one, we support a third-party nuclear energy. And we will happy to replace the coal energy with the nuclear one and obviously the wind and solar power plants. But we're not ready yet. So for now, just for our economy to operate, we need to mine and power plant. So... but it's not... it's not... for... for this verdict and this conflict. It's not about CO2 emissions. It's about water.

CO: Just to clarify, you say that the issue is entirely about the groundwater, but is it not part of the complaint from Germany and the Czech Republic is the dangerous levels of air and noise pollution coming from the mine?

MK: As far as I am concerned, it's the main thing is groundwater levels, and that's the base for the court case investor in this particular situation.

CO: if the... the... the desire is to continue with this mine for another ten years and the government is saying it should continue until 2049 if you do that, is this fine going to be adding up? If the... if Poland says we're not going to pay it, is it still going to be adding up each day that you continue to operate this facility?

MK: Obviously, we need a workable solution. And we have to, at some stage, reach an agreement with Czech Republic. And another thing is, our government is in a number of conflicts with the European Union, about our judicial system, about the situation LGBT people in Poland and now about this mine. And, at the same time, we negotiate a very difficult agreement about Polish... about ending Polish coal mining, basically. Because we need public funds to make this transition smooth and just, basically. And we need time for that. And now we're negotiating going out of the coal mining and energy in Poland. And it's a very difficult to deal we have to make with the European Union. And, at the same time, Polish government is opening a new line of conflict. So that's another cost that we can pay because of this situation.

CO: And so at this point, what is there a way out of this impasse, this... this conflict between the European Union and the Polish government?

MK: We need to, the Polish government needs to, reach an agreement with Czech side. That's basically, I think. [A dog barks loudly] Our prime minister weeks ago said they already agreed to this agreement. And just after, the Czech prime minister answered that he heard of no such thing. But... but at one stage, we just need to reach agreement with the Czech side. And that's it.

CO: All right. We'll let you go. I think the dog wants to go out. [laughing] So, we'll let you do that. Mr. Konieczny, thank you very much.

MK: Thank you very much.

CO: Bye-bye.

CH: Maciej Konieczny is a Polish Member of Parliament for the opposition Razem Party. We reached him in Warsaw.

[music: ambient]

Edmonton Liberal

CH: For two days after election day, voters in the Edmonton Centre riding were on pins and needles waiting for a result. The margin separating Liberal candidate Randy Boissonnault and Conservative incumbent James Cumming was razor-thin. But late Wednesday, after waiting 40 hours for Elections Canada to tally mail-in ballots, Mr. Boissonnault was declared the winner by just 577 votes -- making him one of only two Liberal MPs elected in Alberta. After his win, he spoke about his slim victory.

SOUNDCLIP

RANDY BOISSONNAULT: Well, it was the greatest honour of my life to serve as a Member of Parliament for the Edmonton Centre from 2015 to 2019. And the neighbours, friends and residents of Edmonton Centre have given us another opportunity to do the work, the really important work here. And so a lot of gratitude to the team, to the volunteers and to Edmonton Centre for really sending a strong message that there's a lot of progressives in this riding and that they want a strong progressive voice in this next government. And so we're ready to get to work right away today. Edmontonians, Albertans, Canadians expect us as parliamentarians to get the work done. And what we've seen in Alberta is more progressives elected than we've seen in a while. And it's going to be our job to work together to deliver. I mean, the other message is deliver results. I mean, we've got to deliver on the ten-dollar day child care, on the climate change plan to reduce emissions, on affordable housing and social… you know, affordable housing and housing affordability. But we also have to put the pandemic behind us. People want that in the rear-view mirror. And they want the economy opened up but opened safely. And... and we've got to protect seniors. And that's going to require us to work across the aisle. And I did say to James and to Heather that this was... this showed the best of Edmonton politics in terms of the tone of this campaign. It was never personal. It was about the ideas. It was about our teams on the ground competing. And that it's a... it's a great example of what politics should look like. And the message that I'm sharing and that I'm bringing to Ottawa is... is to be a bridge-builder and to get the work done. Because I think all elected officials are evaluated and should be evaluated on how we deliver.

CH: That was the incoming Liberal MP for Edmonton Centre, Randy Boissonnault, speaking with the CBC's Mark Connolly. Mr. Boissonnault wrestled the riding away from incumbent Conservative James Cumming in a very tight race.

[music: jazz]

Bird Behaviour Change

Guest: Nicola Koper

CH: In March of 2020, all of our lives changed drastically. A lot of us stopped going to work. We didn't drive our cars much anymore, or really do anything at all that involved leaving our homes. And that change in human behaviour, led to changes in the behaviour of other species as well. A team of Canadian and U.S. researchers looked at more than four million reports of bird sightings on the online database, eBird. They've just published a study about what they discovered. Nicola Koper is a professor of conservation biology at the Natural Resources Institute at the University of Manitoba. She's also a senior author of the study. We reached her in Winnipeg.

CO: Professor Koper, we have heard anecdotes during the pandemic about all kinds of changes in wildlife behaviour, but what made you and your colleagues want to study birds?

NICOLA KOPER: It's true that we saw some really intriguing observations of wildlife in the early parts of the pandemic. But sometimes... there's observations of wildlife every year, regardless of what humans are doing. So it's kind of hard to tell if they're actually caused by the pandemic or not? So what we really wanted to do was look at millions of observations of wildlife from across a really wide area. So across most of Canada and the US, to understand whether, in general, there were significant changes in wildlife.

CO: And so you said you wanted to see what… if there were millions of observations. And you just happen to have access to something like that. There's this eBird database that you could look to. So what did you see... and what did you look at, first of all, to see if the patterns of birds had changed during the pandemic?

NK So we looked at whether the birds were seen in the same locations in 2020 during the strongest part of the lockdown compared to the same locations in the three previous years to see whether they moved more into the areas that were impacted by humans when we removed traffic. We found that almost all of the species we were able to look at, which was more than 80 species, did change their habitat use during the pandemic compared to previous years. So some species actually changed how they used the whole continents during the migration. So they actually use different parts of the... of the continent to take advantage of where there were the strongest lockdown's. And within cities as well, we found that there were more... most species were more likely to be found in cities than they were in previous years or within a couple of kilometres of major roads or within up to 10 kilometres or more away from airports.

CO: Can you give us some examples, specific scenarios that that of people's observations of the birds?

NK: So one of the examples that I find really fascinating is the bald eagle. And so bald eagles actually changed the location of where they were during the migration compared to previous years. So they actually moved out of counties that had weaker lockdowns in the counties that had the strongest lockdowns and therefore the greatest decreases in traffic. But we see this trend across all sorts of different species, all the way down to the smallest species we were able to look at, the ruby-throated hummingbird. And so with the hummingbirds, they were actually more abundant within as much as 10 kilometres away from airports during the pandemic compared to previous years. So that suggests that they were actually able to move into parks and gardens within this broad area around airports that they had been displaced from in previous years when the traffic was heavier.

CO: But, of course, you were depending on the observations of casual bird observers or people who watch birds, bird behaviour and record them in this database. Is it not the case that more people were aware at home all day to make these observations, perhaps even filling their bird feeders a bit more frequently?

NK: So that's a really great point. And I I think it was the very first challenge that we wanted to face with this research. And, in fact, other researchers have showed that birder behaviour did change during the pandemic. So we needed to control for that to understand what was really happening with the birds as well. And so we used a number of different statistical methods to help us to do that. But they come down to some pretty logical approaches, like making sure that we took surveys from the same locations during the pandemic and before the pandemic. Making sure that the people who were making who were recording their observations used the same methods before and during the pandemic. And we only use data from experienced observers as well to make sure that the identifications would be successful. And the other nice thing about working with eBird is that it depends on volunteers, but there's also oversight from professional ornithologists to review the data. And so we were very confident in the quality of the data when we were able to do these analyses.

CO: But, of course, now a lot of the traffic is coming back about the noise, the activity. So, I mean, so you've had this window to observe, but can it teach us anything about how we might balance or share this environment with these... with these birds?

NK: I think... so personally, as a conservation biologist, I found this incredibly eye-opening. And I... I really think I’ve taken for granted a lot of the common species that were around us and sort of focussing on conserving species at risk. But I think this... this research really showed us that even those species that are common have been displaced by our human traffic in the past. And so actually, all of the bird communities are much more sensitive to humans than really realised before. So some of the things that we can... can use moving forward in terms of what we've learned from this is that decreasing traffic is good for all sorts of different things. It helps us to decrease our carbon footprint. It helps to protect biodiversity and it can even save money. So what we can do is work from home a little bit more, have more virtual meetings instead of travelling to visit our colleagues and putting more money into public infrastructure. And so those are all going to benefit both humans and the wildlife around us

CO: And take the time to hear the birds.

NK: That's right.

CO: It's good to talk to you, Professor Koper. Thank you.

NK: My pleasure. Thank you.

CO: Bye-bye.

NK: OK, bye-bye.

CH: Conservation biologist Nicola Koper is one of the authors of a new study in the journal Science Advances, that looks at how bird behaviour changed during the early days of the pandemic. She was in Winnipeg. Now, over the past eighteen months we’ve been collecting stories of our own about strange bird behaviour too. In May of 2020 Carol spoke with Jos Baart about a Eurasian Eagle Owl, which happens to be the world’s largest owl, and had made a nest outside his apartment in Geel, Belgium. From our archives, here’s part of that conversation.

CO: How big are these baby owls?

JOS BAART: They are as big as a big chicken, [laughing] so 30 centimetres. And they are looking at the food. Still a chicken, a half chicken yesterday, a house chicken. [laughing] But they have eaten a lot and they are very quiet at the moment.

CO: You spent a lot of time watching this movie.

JB: Yeah.

CO: So do you sit by the window just sitting --

JB: I sit by the window. The whole day, you can look to it. [CO chuckles] And in the evening, they are more active. They come to life.

CO: That's when Mom comes back with the rats?

JB: Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.

CO: [chuckling] But I've seen the video of you. They let you get very close. You have a really close look through the window.

JB: Yes, yes, yes. Oh yeah!

CO: What are those baby owls doing all day? Are they watching you?

JB: Yeah, when I'm home, they watching me. When I go to the window a little bit ticking on the glass, there's a reaction of all three of them.

CO: [chuckling] So they're watching you and you're watching them?

JB: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

CO: But I understand that they like to watch television with you?

JB: [laughing] Yeah, yes, yes. When the television is on, they are seeing the movements of the television and the glintering. And then they come all three before the window. And for a half an hour or more to look television.

CO: [chuckle] Now, do they have any favourite shows, or do they just watch anything?

JB: [laughing] It is just the movement.

CH: From May 2020, that was Carol speaking with Jos Baart, who hosted a family of Eurasian Eagle Owls, on this apartment balcony in Geel, Belgium.

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September 23, 2021 Episode Transcript

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