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The AIH Transcript For September 21, 2021

[hosts]Carol Off, Chris Howden[/hosts]

CAROL Off: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[music: theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

CO: Minority Report. A New Brunswick Liberal known for bucking the party line says he's not so sure the election gave Liberals the clear mandate they were looking for. But, despite their disagreements, he's sticking by his leader.

CH: Centrist of attention. For some Conservatives, yesterday's results prove Erin O'Toole will never win power with an appeal to centrists. But a re-elected Conservative MP says that's not how it looks to him in Saskatchewan.

CO: Not a pretty picture. A Black U.S. congresswoman tells us that, for her, images of Border Patrol agents rounding up Haitian migrants at the Mexican border this week evoke the horrors of slavery.

CH: A whiter shade of pale. When our guest created a new ultra-reflective paint, his goal was to cool a warming planet, not to win a Guinness World Record for the whitest paint ever. But now he's done that too.

CO: At each other's extremely long throats. According to a recent study, Male giraffes don't fight dirty. They only pick on someone their own size -- and even respect their opponents preferred neck-bashing side.

CH: And... job well dune. There are 12 nominees for the U.S. Toy Hall of Fame this year. And among the board games and dolls is a classic. It goes back a couple hundred million years: sand.

CH: As It Happens, the Tuesday edition. Radio that's impressed by its gritty performance.

[music: theme]

Part 1

Election: Liberal

Guest: Wayne Long

CH: The results may look nearly identical to 2019, but if you ask Liberal leader Justin Trudeau -- yesterday's election was a victory.

SOUNDCLIP

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: Thank you all. You are sending us back to work with a clear mandate to get Canada through this pandemic and to the brighter days ahead. And my friends, that's exactly what we are ready to do.

[cheering]

CH: That was Liberal leader Justin Trudeau speaking early this morning after his party won a minority government... with a seat total nearly identical to that of 2019. Wayne Long is a Liberal who was re-elected last night in the Saint John-Rothesay riding. We reached him in Saint John, New Brunswick.

CO: Mr. Long, do you agree with your leader, Mr. Trudeau? Did Canadians send liberals back to Ottawa with a clear mandate?

WAYNE LONG: You know, I don't know if it's a crystal clear mandate any time you go back with a minority government. Clearly went into the election to, you know, get a majority. So I would say it's a mandate. A win is a win. We've worked in the past with other parties, and obviously, we're going to have to do that again. And I think that Canadians have sent us a message that they want us to get to work. They want us to find ways to, you know, find commonality with other parties and move the country forward.

CO: Right, so 600 million dollars later, we have essentially the same thing as we had before. So if the idea was to get a majority in order to fulfil the agenda, to be able to do what Mr. Trudeau wanted to do, does that mean... how... how... how does anything change? How is he able to do anything now that he couldn't have done before this election?

WL: Yeah, that's a great question and a fair point. But, you know, you... when you go into an election, many things can change, many things happen. And, obviously, it didn't work out with respect to a majority. I think that, again, Canadians have sent us a message that they want us to work with other parties and move forward with a progressive agenda. And I'm certainly looking forward to being a part of that.

CO: OK, but again, I hate to labour this point, but I will.

WL: Sure.

CO: If... if the idea was that he needed the majority in order to do what he had to do, then he doesn't have one. So do we have to conclude that Mr. Trudeau is not going to be able to do what he wants to do?

WL: I think what Canadians have said is that they want us to work with other parties. You know, our system is such that, you know, we went back with a minority. And, yeah, I mean, obviously, we're almost back to where we were, you know, 37 days ago. But we tried. It didn't work out with respect to a majority. And we need to move forward. I mean, you know, we can hang our heads and.. and say, oh, jeez, you know, we didn't get that majority. But no, we're... we're government. A win is a win. We're going to find a way to move forward and make it work.

CO: But I guess in the absence of much else in this election campaign, it did become for all the parties a referendum on leadership. And I wonder, what did you hear from people as you were campaigning? What did they say about Mr. Trudeau to you?

WL: You know, we've had a bit of an issue, you know, getting the leaders, you know, likeability, I guess, across in southern New Brunswick. It's disappointing to me. I mean, I certainly always push back and say, you know, tell me what it is you're unhappy with. And typically, people kind of pause, and they're really not sure. So, you know, I've always been somewhat of an independent-minded Liberal. I've pushed back against my own party. My party allows me to do that. They allow me to speak my mind. And I think that our democracy, our parliament, our government is better when you have MPs that, you know, are more riding-first and, you know, represent their constituents.

CO: Now, you're more than just somewhat independent, [chuckling] aren't you? I mean, you have more than any other MP voted against your own party on things that you believed were for your riding. And… but you also... you voted to publicly call for the prime minister and the chief of staff, his chief of staff, to testify at committee on the WE charity affair, which was a big story. As you know, you also were one of only two Liberals who voted for a full public enquiry into the SNC Lavalin affair. And so... so is your sense, given that neither of those things happened that, at some level, Mr. Trudeau has become a liability to your party?

WL: No, not at all. He's certainly not a liability to the party. He's our leader, and I'm looking forward to working with the prime minister to, you know, move our agenda forward. With respect to, you know, WE, SNC and what have you, you know, I've always believed that openness and transparency is best. And, again, I'm always going to speak my mind. And I think our government is stronger when we do that.

CO: But you didn't get either of those things that you... you tried to do, to get those hearings. To get... to get the... the the air cleared for your... for your party, for your prime minister, for... for your government, did you?

WL: No, I didn't. But you know what? I'm elected to represent. I'm elected to, you know, say what I feel is best, and I'm always going to do that. You know, again, I think democratic reform, electoral reform are things that we need to discuss moving forward. And I'm always going to be a voice, you know, that pushes.

CO: Do you think you can get those things on the agenda?

WL: I'm going to try. I think, again, you can look across the country, you can see people that are, you know, disenfranchised, don't feel connected to our electoral system. You know, I'm a poster child, I think, for democratic reform. And, you know, having, you know, a system where MPs can actually speak up and vote against their government. And you see it happen in the... you know, certainly in the U.K. and other areas. And it shouldn't be such a rare thing. It shouldn't be such a news headline when an MP opposes their government. I think it makes for stronger government. Let me be clear. My party allows me to do that. They... you know, I wouldn't say they embrace it, but they certainly allow me to speak my mind. And I know other MPs do the same.

CO: Just back to leadership, finally. I don't know if you saw Don Martin's column today? Very harsh about Mr. Trudeau, and who he believes will have to now realize that he's probably finished as... because he wasn't able to get the majority he promised. And I just wonder if, at some level, you think that... I don't think it's a leap year next year, but do you think there's a walk in the snow in Mr. Trudeau's future?

WL: Oh, no. I mean, look, that's... that's not in my... on my mind or anything like that at all. I mean, look, I'm sure any organization, and I've been with organizations before politics, that, you know, sometimes you need to step back, you need to review what happened right and what didn't happen and correct and move forward. But, you know, my concentration and my focus is on my riding of Saint John-Rothesay, advocating for projects that are important to this riding, you know, like a port expansion and the health initiative and affordable housing. And that's what I'm focussed on. And I'm going to make sure I deliver for my riding.

CO: And we'll be watching. Mr. Long. Thank you.

WL: Any time. Thank you.

CH: Wayne Long is a Liberal who was re-elected last night in the Saint John-Rothesay riding. We reached him in Saint John, New Brunswick.

[hard in to next segment]

Election: Conservative

Guest: Randy Hoback

CH: Erin O'Toole isn't letting a little thing like losing an election bother him. In Ottawa today, the Conservative leader promised to learn the lessons of yesterday's defeat so that he can become the Prime Minister next time around. But Mr. O'Toole hasn't moved the needle much. And the man he campaigned to defeat is back in power -- if not comfortably. That has some members of the party questioning Erin O'Toole's leadership -- and his efforts to court more moderate voters. Randy Hoback is not among the questioners. He's the newly re-elected MP for Prince Albert, Saskatchewan.

CO: Mr. Hoback, how confident should Erin O'Toole be that he's going to be able to hold on to the leadership of your party?

RANDY HOBACK: You know, I think he's fine. Let's face it, he became the leader of the party during COVID, and it was a situation where he wasn't able to really get out and be known. And during the campaign, he was actually, you know, people got to see him in a lot of cases for the first time and liked what they saw. So I think he'll be fine. I think we'll do a lot of internal, you know, gut checking, one might say. To see what went right, what went wrong, so we're properly prepared for the next campaign.

CO: But it's interesting that he didn't just hold on to the reins and go for the ride, he... he showed a different side of conservatism, didn't he? He said that Canada had changed, and Conservatives had to have the courage to change as well. Was that the right course?

RH: You know, I guess we'll look through the... those types of comments. But, you know, we did have to change. We did have to modernize. We did have to move on from the Stephen Harper era, which was a great era. But that doesn't mean we give up on our Conservative values. It just really shows a different side of conservatism, a more compassionate, more understanding side.

CO: And did that work?

RH: Well, we didn't see it in the polls this time. But as people get to know Erin O'Toole, as they get to understand what he stands for and who he is, you know, I'm hoping now they'll look at Conservatives again and say, you know what, those policies are the right policies. And they're now delivered in the type of tone that we actually like.

CO: But what did you hear from people in your constituency? What did... what did people say about the turn that Mr. O'Toole took? What did they say, for instance, about carbon pricing and the carbon tax? And the ban... holding on to the Liberals position on assault weapons? Were these popular ideas in your constituency?

RH: Well, you take the base, the core Conservative Party, there was a lot of people very upset, no question about it. And we had to do some explaining to... for them to understand exactly what we're doing and how we're going to do it. And a lot of cases, it didn't change the outcome as far as the results you would see from the policy change. It was in the delivery of the process of the policy change. So once they realized that, they were able to get on board. For example, with the shift in the carbon pricing. You know, when they realized that the money wasn't being sent to Ottawa. So it wasn't a tax, it was actually a price that they could actually put into their bank account or savings account and use to buy something to make them more environmentally friendly. They could get on it and get behind something like that. And, of course, the farming community, you know, the fact that they were going to get paid for the carbon they sequestered, that's a huge amount of dollars. And they could get behind that along with the cap. You know, as the carbon tax keeps increasing, us in rural Saskatchewan, we're spending more and more money, and it's not having any impact on our emissions.

CO: Really? You really... you heard from people in your riding that they, oh, OK, we get it now. We're all for this carbon tax!

RH: No, I wouldn't put it that way. There was a lot of explaining and lots of discussions back and forth, no question about it. But the other thing to keep in mind, too, the province here in Saskatchewan proposed their form of carbon pricing to meet their emissions. And that was rejected by Ottawa. And they couldn't understand why New Brunswick, the exact same plan as what Saskatchewan proposed, was OK and why Saskatchewan wasn't?

CO: What lesson do you take from the increase in popularity of the People's Party in this election?

RH: You know, it's really interesting to watch because as we went into the election, I think us in Western Canada were more concerned with the Maverick Party and western domination of western separation than we were with the People's Party. The People's Party seemed to grab an issue, and that was vaccinations, mandatory vaccinations, vaccine passports, and ride it. And really create a little bit of a purple wave. But even then, at the end of the day, I think... what? They received about seven per cent of the vote. You know, it never was a real major contender. What it was effective in doing was splitting away some of the Conservative vote and losing maybe seven or eight ridings across Canada. And that was the concern, that was the problem that we've seen with the People's Party.

CO: We talked to Jenni Byrne, who's, of course, worked with Stephen Harper. And we talked to her a week or so ago. She said what many people in the Conservative movement we're saying during this election: that Mr. O'Toole had taken the wrong turn, that he had alienated your base, and... by making this turn toward the left. And that it was a mistake. And that, actually, the outcome is exactly what she and others were predicting. So do you... do you support the direction that Mr O'Toole took?

RH: Well, you know, the... the party supported Mr. O'Toole when they elected him leader. And what he proposed in his leadership bid was what he brought forward to the campaign trail. So there shouldn't have been any surprises within the base of the party on what Erin was going to do and where he was heading to. Did he take a gamble? Yeah, I think he did take a little bit of a gamble in regards to looking at what he could do to maybe attract more voters in different parts of the country and expand our tent. You know, that's what we have to do as a Conservative party. So there's different ways of doing that. Did he do it the best way possible? I'm not sure. Having said that, it comes back to, again, the fact that you have a new leader who was brought into the party leadership role during COVID. And in a situation where he couldn't go around and build trust and build rapport with things right across the country. You know, you can only do so much in a Zoom call. So as we've seen in the campaign, as people start to get to know Erin O'Toole, as they started to see what type of person he was, they began to like him. They began to understand where he's going and what he's doing. And I think there's a general acceptance that, you know, maybe it's 100 per cent right, but there's something there, I think, we can work with and move forward with.

CO: There was an effort on Justin Trudeau's part to... to tie Mr O'Toole and his party, your party, to anti-vaxxers, to a radical movement that we saw across the country during this campaign. Do you think the party paid a price with moderates for... for Mr O'Toole for opposing vaccine mandates and refusing to disclose whether you and your fellow candidates were vaccinated?

RH: No, I think... I don't think so at all. In fact, I think the anti-vaxxers and the... and those folks actually ended up in the People's Party. It was Maxime Bernier that was... that was riding that wave and trying to really harness that energy, so I don't think people looked at Erin O'Toole and thought of him as an anti-vaxxer. I think they looked at him and said, OK, here's somebody that's reasonable and moderate in his approach in trying to bring Canadians together and not divide them, as we've seen versus vaccinated, versus unvaccinated.

CO: All right. Well, congratulations on your victory, Mr. Hoback, and thanks for speaking with us.

RH: No, thank you for having me on here. And, you know, I look forward to going forward with Mr. O'Toole. I think as you get to know him, and as people get to see who he is, they're really going to like him. And he'll make a great prime minister. Just today wasn't the right time, but another day is coming.

CO: And we'll, just quickly, do you think he is going to stay?

RH: Yes.

CO: All right. Thank you.

RH: Take care. Bye-bye.

CH: Randy Hoback is the newly re-elected MP for Prince Albert, Saskatchewan.

[music: orchestral]

Giraffe Fight Club… Don’t Talk About It

Guest: Jessica Granweiler

CH: Good friends stick their necks out for each other. And in this case, enemies do too. They have no choice; giraffes can't retract their necks. Not when they're lopping around, and definitely not when the fight. Their necks are key to their physical conflicts. That feels simple, but a few years back, researchers spent some time observing fights between giraffes and discovered that skirmishes between male giraffes are much more complex than they first appear. Jessica Granweiler is a master's student at the University of Manchester. We reached her in Lyon, France.

CO: Jessica, people may have seen a bit of a giraffe fight in the odd nature documentary, but when you're there, what is it like to watch giraffes getting this aggressive when you're close up and watching them?

JESSICA GRANWEILER: It's very impressive. I saw them there. Their fighting is probably even more impressive to watch. You definitely don't want to get too close. It's like two towers getting against each other. [chuckle] It's very impressive.

CO: But when you see them, it's quite beautiful at the same time, isn't it? The way they move their necks, the way they... they use their neck as a weapon against the other. Just tell us a bit about what it looks like to see two giraffes in a fight?

JG: Well, it's quite beautiful at the same time. Because their necks get entangled, and it's like this slow dance because they sort of take turns in swinging their necks. So it's like one hits and then the other. So it's kind of this rhythmical dance. They're very gentle about it.

CO: They're gentle about it, but... and you observe that they actually have... there's different kinds of fighting that they do, different kinds of sparring and jousting. Tell us what you have noticed, what you observed, about the sort of the different levels of aggression?

JG: So, male Giraffes, they do fight quite aggressively when it comes to fighting for a mate. And that's probably what most people would have seen on TV and whatever where they fight each other, and they get injured. And then there's sparring, which is what my study was on, which is basically like play fighting, like play wrestling, where the males do sort of the same movements. So they're still standing against each other, swinging their necks and hitting each other with their horns. But it's much more gentle, and it's just aiming to practice each other. And we noticed that most of the males chose other males that were similar in size with them. It's probably due to you gain better practice skills when you fight with someone that's close to you in age and size.

CO: Do any of them get hurt during this sparring?

JG: No, none of them had any injuries. Whereas during fighting, they do. They get injured. They can break some limbs. It's not uncommon if you go in some of the Kruger National Parks or whatever that you will see males with broken horns or with patches of bare skin on the bum and the back because of the fighting. Whereas sparring is... is very, like I said, much more practicing and gentle.

CO: You also observed that there seems to be some kind of left-right thing with giraffes, right, as far as with the way they're going to swing their neck, either to the left or the right. What did you make of that?

JG: Yeah, that was really interesting. Actually, I started to study the behaviour just in general, trying to look at who was sparring against who? And then, I started to notice that some of the individuals seem to always spar on the same side. So I tried to take a note of that. And then I realized it was actually a very strong trend. So each male, like you and I, would be left or right-handed, they preferred to swing their necks and have their opponents always on the same side. And it was really interesting because that sort of defines what position they took during the sparring bouts. So they could either be positioned head to tail or facing the same direction. And basically, if they preferred the same side, then they would have to face head to tail. Whereas if they prefer different sides, they would face the same direction. And it was really interesting because sometimes, during the sparring, they would find themselves on the wrong side because of the momentum of the swings of the neck. And then they would immediately stop, both of them. There was no cheating. They would immediately stop and then take back the right position and then continue the sparring.

CO: How fascinating!

JG: Because there's mutual respect. Because they could easily say, well, I don't care, I'm still on my good side, let's continue. But, no, they mutually respected, stopped and then resumed.

CO: Do you know if this exists in other animals, that tendency to be left or right? To be [chuckling] southpaws? Being a lefty myself, [laughing] I have a personal interest in knowing that other animals have the same tendency.

JG: There has been some studies looking at fighting and sparring in other antelope species. And they did find that overall, individuals they prefer having their opponents on the right side in some antelope species. However, in my case, it was in a population trend. It was 50 per cent of the males prefer the left, and 50 per cent their right. So all I can speculate is that they have a certain part of their brain that's associated with that skill. And like some humans, that part of the brain is on the left and some on the right.

CO: I'm sure that you... you had a great affection for giraffes before you started your study. Otherwise, you wouldn't have done this. But have you developed a new appreciation of them having watched this dance and these rules and this respect that they have with their fighting?

JG: Oh, definitely. They clearly have a lot more rules and mutual respect in their social groups than we thought. They're much smarter than I think we give them credit for. And they're absolutely beautiful creatures. One just needs to be in their presence. You just feel very humble, but at the same time, amazed.

CO: I'm sure people listening to us, especially kids who love giraffes, will agree with you on all of this, Jessica. And I really appreciate hearing about your study. Thank you.

JG: Thank you. Thank you so much for this interview.

CH: Jessica Granweiler is a master's student at the University of Manchester. She was in Lyon, France. And you can see photos of the giraffes on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[music: folk]

U.S. Toy Hall Of Fame

CH: Every year, the U.S. National Toy Hall of Fame inducts three new toys. And among this year's 12 nominees are Cabbage Patch Kids, the board games "Risk" and "Settlers of Catan", and the Fisher-Price Corn Popper. Every toy on the short list deserves to be inducted. But one 2021 nominee is kind of...broad. And yet, when you think about it, it's pretty much a shoo-in.

SOUNDCLIP

[clapping]

CH: And the first 2021 inductee into the National Toy Hall of Fame is…

[drumroll]

CH: Oh! Oh, this is fantastic! It's sand!

[clapping]

CH: It's sand! Come on up here.

[a whistle]

CHRIS AS SAND: Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. Ah, yes. Yes. Oh, we did it. Thank you so much. You know, [clears throat] when we had the idea for sand, people scoffed at us. You know, they said no one will be interested in piles of really, really, really tiny rocks. And they especially scoffed at us when we suggested kids might really enjoy it. You know, to make castles out of, or have a big box in their yard, or get in each other's eyes. So I guess, you know, on behalf of the team, I'd like to thank all the naysayers who missed out because they buried their heads in our product... sand!

[sandboxed laughter]

CHRIS AS SAND: Thank you so much!

CH: Yep: one of this year's nominees for the U.S. National Toy Hall of Fame is: sand. Which is described on the website -- accurately -- as "maybe the most universal and oldest toy in the world." And putting sand up against board games and dolls might seem weird -- but there's an infinite number of grains of truth to it.

[music: jazz]

Part 2

Haitian Refugees

Guest: Bonnie Watson Coleman

CH: The scenes are striking. Border agents on horseback, appearing to round up Haitian migrants near the U.S. border with Mexico. They weren't using whips. But in some of the photos, their reins resemble whips. The evocative images come as thousands of Haitian asylum seekers have been forced to camp under a bridge in Del Rio, Texas -- with more arriving each day. But the photos have done nothing to stop flights deporting Haitians from the U.S. back to a country many of them haven't visited in years. Bonnie Watson Coleman is a Democratic congresswoman and one of the signatories on a letter to U.S. President Joe Biden, calling for a halt to those deportations. We reached her in Washington, D.C.

CO: Representative Watson Coleman, what went through your mind when you saw those images?

BONNIE WATSON COLEMAN: Those the images of the Haitian refugees, in particular the one that we saw who was being whipped, were horrific. And they hearken back to another era in this country where slave overseers would be whipping runaway slaves. And I thought, my God, this is 2021, this is un-American. This is unacceptable. And we just cannot abide by that kind of abuse of power.

CO: The border agents say that they weren't using whips. It was the horse... that the reins of the horse. But the images are of white border officials, horse... on horseback, and they seem to be charging at these... these Haitians who are trying to return with food. And... and they're running. There's a woman carrying a baby, and they are clearly afraid of the horses. Is that what you... do when you've seen?

BWC: Well, I saw more than one. So, yes, I saw that. You know, it doesn't matter that they were using the range. The whipping has to do with the action, not necessarily the tools. And so, the... the image was... was heinous. The act was heinous. There should be accountability for that. You know, what we've seen is inhumane treatment of individuals who don't want to be housed under bridges, who don't want to have their safety and security threatened by their living conditions. This is horrible for those families. We have no indication that anybody in that cohort that is there is a danger to our country. They need to be treated with the same dignity and humanity that we treat white immigrants. And we need to make sure that we are processing them in a way that reflects our humanity. And we need to recognise that some of these people have never been in Haiti, particularly the children.

CO: There were two more flights out of Texas to Port-au-Prince in Haiti just yesterday. More flights are scheduled. And so they are taking these people to Haiti. And as you point out, some of them have said they've been... they've left years ago. Some of them left after the last earthquake and haven't lived in Haiti in all that time. So do you have any idea what they're being sent back to?

BWC: I did see Haiti after the earthquake. I did see Haiti after the assassination of the president. I did see what looked like very unsafe conditions. So I don't support their being sent to Haiti. And I don't support those who left Haiti 10 years ago being sent back to Haiti. I think that we should be processing them through our centres, that we need to be talking to our allies so that we can distribute these people, these human beings, into places that are safe for them.

CO: We have a very large Haitian community in Canada, French-speaking. Is... would you be asking Canada... do you think the United States should be asking Canada to help with these refugees?

BWC: I think we should ask all of our allies. Certainly, we have room for some more. Certainly, Canada should have room for some more. But there are other allies that we should be able to rely upon.

CO: You're one of 50 Democrats in Congress who has sent... have sent a letter to Joe Biden -- you sent it on Friday -- about the situation in Del Rio, Texas. What's your message to the president?

BWC: We can do better. We have a responsibility to act humanely. We ought not be sending these people into Haiti, where it is both politically and structurally unsafe. And that we're... we're Americans, and we expect better, and we can do better and we must.

CO: Just to double back, finally, to this… theses disturbing videos that are emerging at the U.S.-Mexican border. I just want to play a bit of what Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas... he said in response to those videos and about the tactics that were used. And here's what he said to CNN.

SOUNDCLIP

ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS: Any mistreatment or abuse of a migrant is unacceptable, is against Border Patrol policy training and our department's values. Indeed, we have directed an investigation. That investigation is underway, and it will be conducted swiftly. And the public needs and deserves to know its results. I also have directed the Office of Professional Responsibility be on-site in Del Rio full-time. We will not tolerate any mistreatment of an individual.

HOST: So abuse and mistreatment not tolerated. Is that abuse or mistreatment where you see children ducking out of the way, horses charging migrants, reins being used?

AM: We are very troubled by what we have seen. We are going to let the fact... the investigation unfold very, very quickly, determine the facts, and then we will take the action that is appropriate based on those facts.

[horses clopping around and people shouting]

CO: OK, we can hear… you can hear the background sound from that video and the sound of those border patrols actually using derogatory and racist slurs to the people there as well. So what answers do you want to hear from... from the Homeland Security secretary?

BWC: Well, Secretary Mayorkas said all the right things. Now, we just had to make sure that all the resources that need to go down there to ensure that these Border Patrol agents and anybody else working on behalf of the United States of America in addressing this tremendous issue down there on the border does so with dignity and respect for the people that are there. You know, I want to just caution that we went through four terrible years under a corrupt president who didn't care about anybody's well-being, and particularly people of colour. And so, we have people who work in federal government who were influenced by that sort of evil behaviour and allowances. And now, this is a new day. And Joe Biden is going to expect that there is respect for the people that come under our charge one way or another. And those who hold onto the old ways and the wrong ways will be reckoned with.

CO: We will be watching. Representative Watson Coleman, thank you.

BWC: Oh, thank you very much.

CH: Bonnie Watson Coleman is a Democratic congresswoman from New Jersey. We reached her in Washington, D.C. And you can find more on that story on our webpage at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[music: glassy guitar]

FOA: Hotel Rwanda

CH: People around the world know Paul Rusesabagina as the Rwandan hotel manager who sheltered hundreds of people during his country's genocide. The story was immortalized in the Hollywood film Hotel Rwanda. Now Mr. Rusesabagina is facing 25 years behind bars on terrorism charges -- charges human rights groups say came in retaliation for his criticism of Rwanda's president, Paul Kagame. The court found him guilty of backing a rebel group responsible for several deadly attacks in recent years. But Rwanda's pursuit of Paul Rusesabagina dates back much further than that. Carol spoke with him in 2011 after prosecutors accused him of funding two rebel leaders. Here is part of that interview, from our archives.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: Mr. Rusesabagina, Rwanda's top prosecutor, says that you sent money to FDLR commanders. How do you respond to that accusation then?

PAUL RUSESABAGINA: Then, I would say that this is simply a pure and simple Kigali forgery. This is a lie, a total lie.

CO: The prosecutor --

PR: Because I never sent money, never to Rwanda nor to Burundi, Tanzania or the Congo.

CO: Ever?

PR: I... the last time I sent money to Rwanda was in 2002, just for my younger brother who had surgery, brain surgery. So we were hiring a medical doctor from South Africa.

CO: But the prosecutor says he has hard evidence that you sent money to those commanders via Western Union, and you sent it from your home in San Antonio, Texas. Is there any basis for this accusation?

PR: Those accusations are simply baseless accusations. And this is simply a smear campaign. And it is the latest step in a campaign against me by the Rwandan government, starting by Mr. Kagame, the president himself, around 2004 when the movie Hotel Rwanda came out. And this included his public insults from him, lies and even physical harassment. Anyone who opposes Kagame inside or outside the country is always treated with this kind of harassment.

CH: Paul Rusesabagina speaking to Carol in October 2011. A Rwandan court has now sentenced him to 25 years in prison on terrorism charges.

[music: Indie rock]

Whitest Paint

Guest: Xiulin Ruan

CH: When Xiulin Ruan began creating his ultra-reflective white paint, his intention was simple: to make a product that would help humanity in its fight against global warming. And in the process of doing that, he ended up creating what Guinness is now calling the World's Whitest Paint. Mr. Ruan is a professor in Mechanical Engineering at Purdue University. We reached him in West Lafayette, Indiana.

CO: Xiulin, this may seem obvious, but what does the world's latest paint actually look like?

XIULIN RUAN: I would say that it's probably comparable to the new snow you will see. And it may be bright to your eye, but wouldn't really hurt your eye because it reflects the light diffusively to many different angles. But it is really white.

CO: [chuckle] Well, now, a decorator will tell you there are thousands of different white paint colours. Most people think white is just the same colour no matter what. But there... so, is it... is there a spectrum in it? Is there a bit of blue or green or anything at all? Any tinge? Or is it just pure white?

XR: It's pure white. Yeah, the other whites have a tone because they don't kind of reflect as much of all the wavelengths. So... but our paint reflects all the wavelengths in the sunlight. So it looks pure white.

CO: But now, you have not created this as an aesthetic quality. This is not for people who want that perfect white, but this is part of an effort to fight global warming. Can you describe what it actually does?

XR: Yeah, well, when we started the work seven years ago, that was our target to fight global warming. And at the beginning, we even thought that, you know, coming up with a white paint to do this was not possible. So we started with something much more complicated, I mean, multilayered kind of materials. But after two years or so, we came to realize with the results we got, they were encouraging. We thought that the paint might be on the... you know, our horizon. Eventually, we came up with some innovative ideas. We use barium sulphate instead of titanium oxide. That was using a commercial paint. I mean, barium sulphate does not absorb any ultraviolet. Then, we put a lot of more particles in our paint but still make brushable and spreadable. We finally use a broad size... broad distribution of particle size so you can reflect sunlight very uniformly. And now, we can reflect 98.1 per cent of sunlight, which means it only absorbs 1.9 per cent.

CO: What you're saying is that the paint, it throws off more heat than it absorbs. So it's actually not just not absorbing heat. It's actually cooling the surface?

XR: Yes, exactly. So just like our... our human body, our human body emits heat all the time. And the key is to sort of... our paint absorbs almost no heat from the sun. So that's kind of the condition where our surface will emit more heat, just like the human body. The body absorbs nothing, almost nothing from the sun.

CO: OK, so now what is the benefit that for that point of view of global warming that you see from this? Is it because of what it does inside that building?

XR: what it does to actually the exterior of the buildings, you can put the paint on, say, on the roof. Definitely, it will absorb much less sunlight than the other commercial paints, which means the heat from the sun would be reflected back to space. So it won't kind of heat up the roof or heat up the cities. And on the earth scale, you will help, you know, absorb less heat from the sun as well. So it's going to help get rid of the urban heat island effect in cities. And help, you know, cool down airs. So we have... you know, what University of California Davis group they have done, they have some model... I mean, with the help of their model, we find out if we're painting less than one per cent of the Earth's surface with our paint, it should give enough cooling power to totally reverse the warming trend of the Earth.

CO: Also, it eliminates much of the need for air conditioning in places where it gets very hot, right?

XR: Of course, yeah. When you can absorb less, much less heat from the sunlight, meaning your houses won't be warm as much either. So you will need much less air conditioning or even eliminate air conditioning. So we haven't done the real scale house test yet. But based on our model so far, we kind of predict that in hot climates such as Phoenix, Arizona, or Reno, Nevada, we can save up to 75 per cent of our air conditioning during the summer.

CO: Wow! Now, you have also won, on top everything else, a Guinness record, a Guinness Award for the world's whitest paint. What does that mean for you?

XR: Yeah, wow! Yeah. So actually, this is totally unexpected. When we heard that the Guinness World Records team reached out to Purdue, then they passed information to us, we say, wow! I mean, this is a totally unbelievable. My students were also with me and say, my goodness. [chuckling] So actually, when we started the work seven years ago, we were not... definitely not targeting the Guinness World Record. We were not even targeting a colour at that time. We were thinking about a material to help cut air conditioning and save energy and save our planet from global warming. But it just turns out our solution sort of evolved in a way that when we like to absorb as little heat from the sun as possible, it appears to be white because white surfaces reflect the incoming light. So... so is it kind of coincidence, I would say. But we were really happy and greatly honoured, I would say, to be recognised, you know, by this world record.

CO: Well, Xiulin, good work all around to you and the others who created this. This sounds really interesting. And we'll... we'll... we'll watch for this paint turning up in places that are very hot. And I appreciate your work. Thank you.

XR: Yeah, thank you very much.

CO: Bye-bye.

XR: Yeah, bye.

CH: Xiulin Ruan is a professor in mechanical engineering at Purdue University. We reached him in West Lafayette, Indiana. Mr. Ruan's whitest white might remind you of a story we did about the extreme other end of the colour spectrum. In 2019, Carol spoke with Massachusetts Institute of Technology professor Brian Wardle, after he created a black so black that it absorbs 99.995 per cent of visible light.

SOUNDCLIP

BRIAN WARDLE: The one aspect of that we measured that a lot of folks don't is sort of speaks to omnidirectional on blackness. So most of these measurements are done sort of like, you know, banging the light like you throw a ball against the wall, and it comes right back to you. But light on real objects comes from all directions. And our measurement we measured sort of as a function of the angle, and the blackness didn't degrade. And I think that was one of the reasons why, you know, when we just visually observed it ourself, we're like, wow, that's a lot darker than the normal really black stuff that we've been handling for a decade.

CO: What are practical applications that you can have with this blackest of black?

BW: So it's generated a lot of interest from the optics and the laser communities. And as well, you know, part of that community is with observational telescopes for looking at either radio telescopes for looking for exoplanets. But in any of these applications where you have strey light bouncing around, that is noise to the signal that you'd actually, you know, like to observe. Like, any light coming into your detector that's not from the exoplanet is noise. So having a material that absorbs more and more and more light, there's been a lot of interest in that for, I would say, optics.

CO: Do you think it's possible to capture 100 per cent of all light?

BW: What I would say is, you know, this was a... basically just a discovery and observation we made because we were working at the artist. You know, we decided to measure it. It was blacker than anything reported. I think, you know, the blackest black should be an evolving number, right? Or an evolving material. I think others will find blacker blacks as time goes on.

CH: From 2019, Carol speaking with MIT Aeronautics and Astronautics professor Brian Wardle about creating the world's blackest black material.

[music: ambient]

SOD: Vivaldi Gondola Performance

CH: Music drifted off the water in Venice, Italy, this past weekend -- performed live by musicians who were drifting on the water. That's not that uncommon along the canals of 'the floating city'. But the players did manage to stand out even as they struggled to stay standing up -- because of what they were standing on. An enormous and surprisingly realistic violin, if violins were 12 metres long. "Noah's Violin" was dreamt up by a local artist as a celebration of the city's cultural reawakening after COVID shutdowns. And just to be clear, the members of the string quartet were not in the violin, they were on it -- balancing on the gently sloped, highly polished, and constantly moving body, while really going for baroque.

SOUNDCLIP

[music: a violin performance]

[clapping]

CH: Vivaldi as performed atop by musicians atop a giant violin floating on Venice's Grand Canal this weekend. That was our Sound of the Day.

[music: violin notes]

Part 3

FOA: Rodney King Video

CH: He changed the way police brutality was seen in the U.S. -- by letting people see it. On the night of March 3rd, 1991, George Holliday woke up to the noise of a police traffic stop outside his home. He grabbed his new video camera to record it. What he captured was a group of Los Angeles police officers punching and kicking a man -- and continuing after he was on the ground. That man's name was Rodney King. The tape caused a sensation -- and nights of protest and rioting after the officers were acquitted of the assault. George Holliday has died at the age of 61 after contracting COVID-19. After the videotape was released, former As It Happens host Michael Enright spoke with civil rights lawyer James Foster. Here is part of that interview, from our archives.

SOUNDCLIP

JAMES FOSTER: I was not surprised whatsoever by what I saw. I mean, there's a pattern of violence in the southern California law enforcement. And the king incident is simply the latest one in a string of incidents that have occurred in southern California within the past two years.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Mr Foster, what's at the root of this? What is the problem with the Los Angeles police and the Black community in the area?

JF: Well, one of them is just improper training.

ME: Yeah?

JF: I mean, the police are just definitely out of control. And I'm not just talking about LAPD. I can go on with the... with the sheriff's department and other law enforcement agencies. But the plain and simple fact is that... that they're just out of control. The Police Misconduct Lawyers Referral Service averages about 200 calls a month requesting for legal assistance. But the real reason is that... for the violence, at least in my opinion, is the failure of our government institutions to even investigate the problem, to even simply say that this conduct cannot be tolerated. I think yesterday was the first time I heard Mayor Bradley state unequivocally that this conduct is outrageous and should not be tolerated. And then, the prosecutors are reluctant to prosecute the police. I mean, in my opinion, the district attorney and the police are in bed together. And then they are the courts. We have lightweight judges who just show extremely extraordinary leniency in their sentencing officers. And they ignore any claims of excessive force. And not just the state bench. Even on the federal bench.

ME: What is the reaction to all of this, and including the assault on Mr. King, within the Black community?

JF: Well, finally, they'll get up in arms. If you recall, in 1965, we had a riot --

ME: Watts… in Watts.

JF: About the police abuse. In Watts. That is correct. And, indeed, all of the riots that involved the Black community or 99 per cent of them, were the result of police abuse. We're going to have to do something. I don't know what. Is this a continuing pattern? And we certainly don't need another riot.

ME: Do you take any... any comfort in the fact that the DA's special investigative unit is going to have an inquiry, that the FBI is now involved for possible civil rights violations?

JF: Well, I do take comfort in the fact that the FBI is involved. I mean, that is at least one law enforcement agency that is looked upon as professional. So... and I also hope that a congressional investigation is started. That's what we need. We need some investigation to document this continuing pattern of violence from law enforcement officers in our community.

CH: From our archives, that was Michael Enright speaking with civil rights lawyer James Foster in March 1991 -- after videotape of the police beating of Rodney King was released. The man who shot that video, George Holliday, has died at age 61.

[music: acoustic guitar]

Honduras Activist’s Charges Dropped

Guests: Edwin Espinal, Karen Spring

CH: Edwin Espinal has been through a lot. But for the first time, he and his wife say they dare to hope the worst might be over. Mr. Espinal is a political activist in Honduras who was detained following an anti-government protest in Tegucigalpa in 2018. Two years ago, he was released on bail -- pending a trial that has hung over him and his Canadian wife, Karen Spring, ever since. Now, at long last -- and after years of campaigning by Ms. Spring's relatives in Ontario -- Mr. Espinal has been absolved of the charges against him. We reached Edwin Espinal and Karen Spring in Tegucigalpa, Honduras.

CO: Edwin, I want to start with you. How does it feel to have been absolved of these charges in Honduras?

EDWIN ESPINAL: Well, I don't feel like I'm free like 100 per cent because, still, the prosecutors will still appeal against the resolution. So we still like, you know, like expecting anything.

CO: And... and, Karen, you've been since 2018, when your husband was arrested, you have been trying to get him justice. So what does it mean to you to have him, at least at this point, acquitted?

KAREN SPRING: Oh, I feel... we both feel very happy. We're definitely relieved. It has been a long and exhausting process. But like Edwin said, we're waiting for any surprises that might come about as well. And we're ready to act against those if necessary.

CO: I want to get a bit of background. Because for many people, Honduras is not on their radar. Edwin, you were in an anti-government protest in January 2018 when you were arrested. Can you tell us why you were arrested? What were you charged with?

EE: Yes, I have charges for damage, charges for arson and also, carrying explosives.

CO: And none of this is true?

EE: None of those is true. I mean, the... the prosecutor, he admitted in front of the judge. He asked the judge, I apologize for pressing these charges, but we... we... we made a mistake. You know, can you imagine, he... he admitted in front of all of us, in front of the judge, after we spent 19 months in a maximum-security prison under death threats all the time.

CO: What were the conditions in the prison that you were in?

EE: Horrible. You have no idea, contaminated water, contaminated food also, cockroaches, things like that. You know, and the food is horrible. You know, so, like, we had like one hour outside to get sun. One hour every two weeks.

CO: Good heavens!

EE: So that's two hours in a month. You know, so we shared the same space with criminals, like a very dangerous criminal, like people who has killed 50 or 100 people, you know?

CO: You were... when you were arrested, you were protesting against the government of Juan Orlando Hernandez, right? And hundreds of people were arrested, and have been arrested, for protesting against the government. Can you tell us why you joined the demonstrations the day you were arrested?

EE: Yes, because we... we had been protesting on the streets against this government because it wasn't... wasn't legally elected. The first... in 2013, when Juan Orlando Hernandez first time run for presidency, there was electoral fraud. And then we were protesting against the government for four years. And then we get to 2017, and then another new electoral process start. And then we were completely against his candidature because he violate the Constitution to run for the second period of time, you know, on his presidency. And he used the military force to repress all the protest on the streets. A lot of people got killed, and a lot of people got to also put it in jail.

CO: And I want to ask you, one of the reasons why you are released, I believe, is because of your wife's mother, your mother-in-law, in Simcoe County in Ontario. Karen, can you tell us what your mother did in order to help get Edwin released?

KS: Well, I grew up in the town of Elmvale, Ontario. It's a small rural community in Seminole County. And when Edwin was arrested, my mom got together with the supportive rural community where we live. They did so much work. We had town hall meetings. We had local MPs get very involved. We had our town council write resolutions. We even had a local business donate billboard space in the region. It was just an incredible grassroots effort from a small rural community that made a huge difference in terms of impact and achieving results, but also making Edwin and I feel very supported internationally.

CO: Edwin, have you seen the billboards? [chuckle] It's quite extraordinary that in this Simcoe County that there are these billboards on the sides of the road with your... your name and your story on them. What… what... have you seen that?

EE: Oh yeah, I saw... the first time... I was still in jail when I saw it. But when I saw the billboard, it was amazing because it gave us the strength to keep strolling inside for our lives inside the jail. I just want to go over there and... and hug everybody [CO chuckles] and, you know?

CO: But you want to visit Canada, but are... you still have plans to continue activism in Honduras?

KS: Oh, absolutely! I think that, you know, I've been doing this work for twelve years, and Edwin as well. And we feel very committed to social justice issues. There are still so many people in prison. There are land and water defenders that are in prison. Berta Cáceres was an environmentalist that Edwin and I both worked very closely with. And she was murdered. And they're still trying to fight for justice for her murder. And so I think that we've always kept it in mind that this is so much more than just about Edwin's case.

CO: Edwin, I know you describe what you encountered in prison, and... and how many threats on your life, how miserable it was because... and all of this because you had protested against the government. Is it tempting to maybe just go to Ontario, come to Canada and... and leave all this behind?

EE: It's really hard to leave everything behind because there's a huge struggle. And I think the struggle will continue here. And I think we... we... me Karen, we are part of this struggle. But it will be nice to go and visit Karen's family and, you know, meeting in person and all our new friends that I have over there that I've been talking. And how amazing they are, how supportive and their spirit of solidarity they expressed to us. It's amazing. It would be nice.

CO: Well, it sounds like you have a lot of friends in Simcoe County, [chuckling] so I hope that you do get that visit. And I appreciate speaking with both of you. Thank you.

EE: It's my pleasure. Thank you.

KS: Thank you very much.

CO: Bye.

KS: Bye.

CH: Edwin Espinal and Karen Spring are political activists in Tegucigalpa, Honduras. That's where we reached them.

[music: uke!!!]

The Great Blueberry Heist

CH: Let me just start by saying, three thousand pounds -- or 1,360 kilograms -- is a lot of blueberries. And when you're talking about Newfoundland wild blueberries, it's a lot more blueberries. Because they are tiny. And delicious. And valuable. Which is why it was such a shock to the owners of Brown's Family Farms just outside St. John's to discover that as much as three thousand pounds of those small-of-stature big-of-taste berries had been taken by thieves -- right out of their field. Nancy White described how she and her partner Justin Brown discovered their bushes had been ambushed.

SOUNDCLIP

NANCY WHITE: He stopped into the field late one night, actually, to just take a look. We always drive down that road just to see if there's anybody picking on the side of the road. Some people use a field, of course, and we just ask them to leave, and usually, everybody complies, no problem. So we stopped into... or he stopped in the farm on the way back to town. And just took a look. And we were so happy that, you know, the hurricane didn't get us after all that wind last week. And he noticed that one of the signs was hauled down. We do have multiple signs along that road along the 192 fence posts that we just put in to hopefully deter people. But, yeah, so he... he took a look, and he was a bit suspicious by that. And then when he took a look at fields, it... it looked like someone, you know, was out there walking through it. But it was a bit late. So he gave me a shout, and we're like, OK, well, we'll take a look tomorrow because we were going to plan on going in on Saturday morning to start the last of that harvest. So when we got ready to go out and harvest on Saturday, and we got to the field, we knew the damage. We didn't know the full extent of it until we started walking around. Now, again, this is, you know, three to four acres. So it's quite significant. And it's really hard to see at first glance the damage that is there. So we kept walking around, seeing more and more of area that was harvested. There's not a deer left on the bush. And we were pretty upset. Pretty much just kept walking around in disbelief. To harvest this amount of barries would take significant time or many hands. You know, it's a lot of berries. So whoever harvested these berries would have the equipment and the capacity to deal with it. Of course, we're a small farm with limited land to harvest. So this is going to be a financial loss for us. That also means that we can no longer fill those large orders that we have. So some of those buyers that were expecting are not going to get that volume barries now, you know? And now, it means we have to figure out what we're going to do and moving forward to stop this from happening in the future. You know, I don't think they understand what they've done. Maybe they do. But, you know, we'd really like for people to just respect farmers' property.

CH: Blueberry farmer Nancy White speaking to the CBC's Adam Walsh from just outside St John's, Newfoundland and Labrador.

[music: horns]

New Canadian’s First Vote

Guest: Maya Kotob

CH: Like so many Canadians, yesterday, Maya Kotob went to the polls to vote. It was her first time too. And it wasn't the first significant thing she did yesterday: before she went to cast her ballot, she became a Canadian citizen. Maya Kotob is a lawyer in Toronto. That's where we reached her.

CO: Maya, first of all, congratulations.

MAYA KOTOB: Thank you so much. Thank you.

CO: Yesterday was quite a day for you, wasn't it? Has it all sunk in?

MK: Honestly, not yet. [chuckling] It was such a big day. It was the day I became a Canadian citizen, took my oath, the day I voted. And so it's been a lot, but it's very exciting. And I've had a tremendous, like, welcoming welcome from everyone. So it's been a very nice couple of days.

CO: And tens of thousands of people have shared the story [MK chuckles] of you and your beautiful photo on Twitter of you just before the... the computer screen doing, I guess, your citizenship swearing-in. Is that right?

MK: That's right! More than 30,000 people or almost 35,000 people have liked it. And, honestly, I don't think I would have ever imagined that I'd get 35,000 people congratulating me on becoming Canadian.

CO: What was the order of things? So you did the... you became a citizen what in the morning? Was that ceremony just before... before... because before you voted, right?

MK: That's right. That's right. So I had the ceremony in the morning. It was over Zoom, and I took my oath, and it was a joint ceremony with other... like, 37 other people. And it was a really, really great moment. In the ceremony, they actually encouraged us to go vote because it's voting day. I happened to have had a polling station in my building, so I literally just went downstairs, and I voted. So within the hour of being Canadian, I voted.

CO: [chuckle] How did you register for that? Was it complicated to convince them that you... you were a Canadian and that you were entitled to vote?

MK: It was pretty simple. I just told them that I just became Canadian. [chuckling] So that was a shock to them. But they just registered me on the spot. It wasn't too complicated. I don't know how it really works, but they just registered me on the spot. Everyone was very helpful and cooperative and, you know, showed me what to do because I had no idea what to do. [chuckling]

CO: When you say that… and when you told them you had just become a citizen, did you say in the past hour you had become a citizen before you were there? [both laugh]

MK: You know, I don't know if I mentioned that. Telling them, I just became a citizen today shocked them enough. Everyone was so nice. Honestly, it's been... everyone's reaction across the board has been quite consistent with everyone being so warm and welcoming.

CO: You've come... you came from Syria by way of the United Arab Emirates. You came to Canada, I think, in 2017. Had you ever voted before?

MK: That's right. That's exactly right. And I've never actually voted before. So it was a completely new experience. It's something that I've always wanted to do. And I finally got to do it yesterday. And that by itself was really, really exciting. And, yeah, honestly, that was like the... the best part. So, I really... it means a lot to be Canadian. And the biggest reason for that is because now I have a right to vote and have my voice heard. And so, it really meant a lot that moment that I was able to actually vote. And having that right just minutes or like within the hour of becoming a citizen was really the cherry on top.

CO: So what were your emotions going through that... that... that hour of your life? [both chuckle]

MK: Honestly, I was... I was high from the excitement. [laughing] I was really excited that I was Canadian. I didn't expect myself to be that excited, but I was really, really happy. I... I was telling anyone that would listen that I'm a new citizen, [laughing] and that I'm going to vote. So, yeah, it's hard to put into words, but I was really, really excited and very happy.

CO: And are the other issues that are important to you and as you cast your ballot?

MK: Honestly, are a lot of issues that are really important for me, especially, you know, support for vulnerable citizens and refugees and immigrants and new Canadians, especially, you know, new Canadians are usually coming from, you know, all aspects of life from all over the world, different ethnicities, different religions. So what I think the most important factor that I would look out for is, you know, a government that really recognizes the rights of all new Canadians, all new immigrants, you know, non-discrimination, you know, to anyone really that's coming to Canada. And, honestly, beyond that, just social assistance really is really important for me, a government that takes care of those people that are more vulnerable in society. You know, a social assistance that provides a living wage, housing supports income, maintenance, social supports to everyone because it's really needed, you know, among immigrants and others. And any government that cares about those issues is important for me.

CO: And… but, yet the early numbers, they showed a pretty low voter turnout yesterday. So you're... after your first day of voting, what message do you have for people who decided just not to go out and vote?

MK: Honestly, my message is vote. Like, everyone here... a lot of people here seem to take it for granted. But there are so many people like me that really cannot wait until they get that right. So don't take that right for granted. It's really a right. It's a privilege. And don't let it go to waste. My message to everyone is vote. Whenever you can, vote.

CO: How did you celebrate yesterday?

MK: I had a firm dinner. So my firm was nice enough to have a dinner for me over Zoom. And we all tried to have Canadian food. And I happened to have poutine actually for the first time ever.

CO: [both laughing] Really?

MK: Yeah, I somehow made it five years in Canada without having poutine. [chuckling] So I tried it for the first time yesterday, and I loved it. So I've really been missing out.

CO: OK, a warning to you. Don't get addicted to poutine. [both laughing]

MK: That's a good tip, yeah.

CO: Yeah, from a Canadian with experience with these things, just a warning.

MK: [both laughing] Thank you. Thanks.

CO: Well, Maya, I am very happy for you. And it's great to speak with you. Thank you.

MK: Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

CO: Bye.

MK: Bye.

CH: That was Maya Kotob, who became a Canadian citizen, and voted for the first time, yesterday. We reached her in Toronto.

[music: hip-hop beat]

Teenage Prodigy

CH: Kevin Chen has written over 100 pieces of music. Including multiple symphonies. Kevin Chen is also only 16. And now, the Calgary pianist can add another achievement to his extensive, impressive list of accolades. The teenage virtuoso is now the youngest-ever winner of the Franz Liszt International Piano Competition. This weekend, in Budapest, he received his award at a gala concert and also performed Liszt's Piano Concerto No. 1 in E-Flat Major -- accompanied by the Hungarian National Philharmonic Orchestra.

[music: “Liszt's Piano Concerto No. 1 in E-Flat Major” performed by Kevin Chen Hungarian National Philharmonic Orchestra]

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September 21, 2021 Episode Transcript

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