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The Current Transcript for September 15, 2021

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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SOUNDCLIP

Given where things are here, as well as in New Brunswick and P.I., I am not comfortable moving into phase five just yet. It is far better to wait until we're ready to implement our proof of vaccine policy.

MATT GALLOWAY: For much of this pandemic. Nova Scotia has been the envy of the country when it comes to managing covid-19 now, with a fourth wave taking hold, the province has hit the brakes on lifting the remaining public health restrictions. In 30 minutes, Nova Scotia chief medical officer of health on his reluctance to declare victory too soon. Why he hopes you'll keep a mask on in future and whether the anti vaccination protests he's seen elsewhere in the country could come here. Also this morning, the debut feature by Canadian filmmaker Dana Scully tells the story of a futuristic society where children are removed from their families, taken to faraway schools and stripped of their language and culture. It's not a documentary, but it's rooted in truth.

SOUNDCLIP

I could feel that something was off and we needed to smudge one of our [unintelligible] had a smudge in his car and he ran out to get it. And you know how expensive it is to stop a film shoot. I just said we're not going forward until we can do this in the right way.

MG: In an hour. She's here to talk about the power and peril of telling the story of residential schools through art. We start, though, on the prairies with health care systems on the brink again. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway in Halifax and this is The Current.

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Rising COVID-19 cases in Alberta and Saskatchewan putting health systems in crisis

Guests: Dr. Shazma Mithani, Dr. Lookman Abdul, Dr. Alex Wong

MG: Most of the country took a bit of a breather this summer, it has been a long pandemic and since vaccine rates have been up, cases have been down. Most provinces relaxed restrictions or came out of strict lockdowns. Alberta, though, went farthest on Canada Day, the chief medical officer of health, Dr. Deena Hinshaw, announced the end of almost all pandemic restrictions. Saskatchewan took a similar approach. And now Alberta and Saskatchewan have the highest covid rates by population in the entire country. Both health systems are in crisis. ICUs are packed. Elective surgeries in Alberta are being postponed to keep critical care beds free. And yesterday, Dr. Deena Hinshaw took some responsibility.

SOUNDCLIP

I feel very responsible for the narrative that has made it more complicated to try to put additional public health measures in place, because whether or not it was my intention, what was heard at the end of July was, Covid's over. We can walk away and ignore it. And that has had repercussions.

MG: That was Dr. Deena Hinshaw, Alberta's chief medical officer of health. Darran Markland is an intensive care doctor in Edmonton. He wants action, not words from Dr. Hinshaw.

SOUNDCLIP

It's one thing to admit it. It's another thing not to make reparations. We have to have political leadership and it has to say that we're at a crucial juncture. This is an imminent collapse of acute care. Without measures, we're going to be medivac ing people out of the province and we will be losing innocent souls to this.

MG: Joining me now with their perspective from the front lines are Dr. Shazma Mithani Matheney, an emergency room doctor in Edmonton, and Dr. Lookman Abdul, an ICU doctor at Battleford Union Hospital in North Battleford, Saskatchewan. Doctors. Good morning to you both.

DR. SHAZMA MITHANI: Good morning.

DR. LOOKMAN ABDUL: Good morning.

MG: Dr. Mithani, just briefly, what's your reaction to Dr. Henshaw's remarks? They're taking some responsibility for what's unfolded in your province over the last little bit.

DR. SHAZMA MITHANI: I mean, I'm glad that there is some responsibility taken, but similar to what Dr. Markland said in the clip as well. I don't think it's going far enough. And to be honest, it feels like it's too little, too late. There are many points along the way where some action could have been taken. And now we're in the worst wave we've had and people are dying every day.

MG: I guess the other part of it is how you see what's happening elsewhere in the country. I'm in Nova Scotia right now where they're slowing down, easing restrictions. And the chief medical officer of health says that caution needs to be the word of the day, especially given what's on the horizon. I mean, how does that strike you?

DR. SHAZMA MITHANI: Honestly, it's not surprising, given how Alberta has handled the pandemic over the last year and a half, up until now, it's always been the government's always dragging their feet in terms of introducing restriction. This is certainly the worst it's been. I mean, we've now been in a fourth wave for weeks and there's they're barely even in the restrictions placed. And so, I mean, similar to what you said at the beginning, I'm certainly envious of other places who are doing this right and who are taking this seriously.

MG: What does it look like in your E.R. right now?

DR. SHAZMA MITHANI: It's terrible. We're just seeing a massive influx of of mostly unvaccinated patients who are coming in with complications and coming in quite sick with covid-19. We're sending so many more people to the intensive care unit, young people, the intensive care unit and staff are just tired. It's demoralising to be doing this yet again.

MG: What about for you, Dr. Abdul, in your ICU in rural Saskatchewan? What do you see?

DR. LOOKMAN ABDUL: Just as my colleague has said, it's actually very terrible with us as well. There is an imminent system collapse. System is in crisis, and I worked over the weekend. We had a six week old baby with covid and is the same thing people on our medical watch, normally there is a form of non-invasive ventilation that we never used on our medical watch while because our ICU is jam packed, there's no ICU in any way in the province, so we have to make do with giving substandard care to patients will really needs critical care on a medical watch.

MG: What does that mean? No ICU and you talk about a system collapse. If somebody needs an intensive care unit because they're seriously injured in a car accident. What happens to them?

DR. LOOKMAN ABDUL: I'll be honest. You have to make an ethical choices of who gets appropriate level of critical care and what gets substandard care. Because the way it works is that there is something we call a system flow, where you know what is going on in the ICU in the province. And that yesterday most of those ICU are actually on bypass. I mean, there is no bed available. So if someone gets a real traffic accident and, you know, I'm saying you wouldn't be able to get them into any ICU. So you're giving substandard care to people who were supposed to get a level of critical care. That's what it means.

MG: Dr. Mithani, you are treating overwhelmingly patients who have been unvaccinated. They're coming in unvaccinated. What are they telling you about the situation that they find themselves in and why they have yet to to get the vaccine?

DR. SHAZMA MITHANI: You know, Matt, it's it's a mixed bag, so, you know, there- especially when it's young people kind of under the age of 40, it's a lot of times it's, well, I didn't think I would get sick or I just was so busy. I just hadn't gotten around to it yet. And and a lot of those are people who have barriers to getting vaccinated. Social barriers to getting vaccinated. So a single mom, for example, or, you know, someone who is working several jobs to to care for their family. And so those ones are the most devastating. Of course, on the opposite end of the spectrum, there have been on thankfully still rare occasions, people who are still in complete disbelief that they even have covid. They don't believe what you're saying. And there have been, you know, equally devastating on on a different way these patients who just don't believe what you're telling them and just think that covid is still a hoax, even though they're sitting there in front of you needing quite a high level of care in order to be able to breathe.

MG: What do you say to those patients?

DR. SHAZMA MITHANI: You know, we just we, in the moment, we treat them the same way as every other patient, right? That's our job. Our job is to do the best we can for every patient, regardless of what their background is without any judgement. And so we try to, you know, comfort them and and talk them through what's happening.

MG: Is that difficult? I mean, there's a phrase that gets tossed around called compassion fatigue. You've been at this for 18 months. You said you're exhausted. I can hear it in your voice. Is it difficult when somebody comes in and they're in front of you and they're denying what you are saying, that they have covid-19? Is it difficult to do your job?

DR. SHAZMA MITHANI: Yeah, it definitely is. I mean, we've, like you said, we've been at this for 18 months, it's just very disheartening that, you know, myself and my colleagues who've been trying to advocate to get this messaging out, to do the right thing, who are on the front lines seeing how terrible this can be, and then to still have, you know, Albertans where I am not believe that this is true. It's yeah, it's hard to work through that.

MG: Does that sound familiar, Dr. Abdul?

DR. LOOKMAN ABDUL: Absolutely. Well, one thing I just realised, I think there's a lot of misinformation around, and most of these patients, when they call me, they actually feel very remorseful because they can see the pressure, they can see the frustration on the health care workers. But our job is not to be judgemental. And by telling them, like I spoke to one of the guys is only in his 40s, is in ICU, is almost close to being intubated. And any time you come in is very apologetic. Honestly, I'll say, you know, I made a mistake and, you know, and he's actually made the call even yesterday to advice most of his friends to go get the vaccine because, you know, this is a preventable disease if you get vaccinated.

MG: In the face of that, what do you want from leadership in Saskatchewan, you're in this position now. What are you looking for?

DR. LOOKMAN ABDUL: I'll be honest with you, while we are doctors, we are not politicians. Politicians make those decisions about. Four weeks ago, I went to a store and I was actually the only one with a mask and people were kind of looking at you and you felt so bad that you have to take off your mask while you knew it was a time bomb. And it was just a matter of time that this thing is going to bite us in the face.

MG: You knew it was a time bomb?

DR. LOOKMAN ABDUL: Oh, it was. We all, I'm sure the politicians, everybody knows it was just a matter of time, a matter of time that this thing is just going on to haunt us in the face and that what is happening, you know what I mean? And we're just in the early phase. When the fourth surge, the first one wasn't as bad as the second, the second wasn't as bad as the third and at least the fourth one is the worst. We [unintelligible]t being at. And, you know, I'm saying I don't think it's going to get better except if we take all the politicians, change the attitude of the populace.

MG: What about for you, Dr. Mithani? I mean, you now have elective surgeries in Alberta that are being postponed, which has a domino effect. We have seen this in other jurisdictions that can lead to further complications when it comes to people's health care. What do you want from the Alberta government to get this under control?

DR. SHAZMA MITHANI: Well, simply, we need action and we need to take the politics out of it. You know, we have people dying every day. We have well over close to 50, 100, if not more cases per day in our ICUs are at a critical juncture here where, you know, like Dr. Markland said off the hop, we're going to start having to think about moving people out of the province just to receive ICU care. And so we need things like an actual universal mask mandate, not with multiple solutions like schools or places of worship, which is what our current mask mandate is. We need proof of vaccination to enter public spaces, and that needs to be government mandated. We need rapid tests in schools. We need contact tracing in schools. We need improved ventilation in schools. I mean, our school outbreak numbers are just through the roof right now and we need limitations on indoor gatherings. Things like the other other places in this country are doing, like you mentioned, in Nova Scotia. And I thought they were closing schools. So there are so many places around the country that are taking proper action to to get these cases under control. And that's what we need to see here in Alberta as well.

MG: I can't remember how many times I've spoken to you over the course of the pandemic, but it's been a lot. And you sound at this point, you sound frustrated and you said wiped out. Would you have ever imagined that now in September we would be having a conversation like this in a fourth wave in your province?

DR. SHAZMA MITHANI: No, no, whether that was naive or not, I don't know. But. Especially when we got vaccines, it just it really felt I think I talked to you around that time, it really felt like there was a light at the end of the tunnel and that we were almost there and that, you know, all we needed to do was for people to do the right thing and for policymakers not to rush things. And I guess that was too much of an ask. And now here we are again.

MG: I'm grateful to speak with you both. And I wish you the best of luck. Take care of yourselves. And and thanks for taking some time out of a very busy schedule to speak with us, Doctor. Thank you very much.

DR. SHAZMA MITHANI: Thanks, Matt.

MG: Dr. Abdul, thank you.

DR. LOOKMAN ABDUL: Thank you very much.

MG: Dr. Shazma Mithani is an emergency room doctor in Edmonton. Dr. Lookman Abdul, an ICU doctor in North Battleford, Saskatchewan. For more on how Alberta and Saskatchewan can get a handle on this crisis, I'm joined by Dr Alex Wong, an infectious disease physician in Regina. Doctor, good morning to you.

DR. ALEX WONG: Morning, Matt.

MG: What went wrong?

DR. ALEX WONG: Very simply, we did not have a high enough vaccine uptake and leaders chose to open en masks very, very quickly. So Alberta, obviously July 1st and then us here in Saskatchewan, July 11th. We didn't recognise and see what was very clearly sort of in plain sight going to be a crisis. We could see exactly what was going to happen, looking at our neighbours to the south in very identical situations. And Delta happened too. Like nobody anticipated or could have anticipated what Delta was. And it's a different beast, just so much more contagious, so much more transmissible. It became very clear that, you know, just trying to rely on vaccine only in order to decouple hospitalisations and deaths from cases was not going to be sufficient. And unfortunately, now we're in a situation where both jurisdictions, both, you know, Alberta and Saskatchewan, you know, aren't dialling it back for basically political reasons. There really is no other way to to look at this. And that is going to cost lives and, you know, put our health care systems essentially on overload.

MG: Just briefly, I mean, how hindsight is 2020, as they say. But Dr. Hinshaw was saying the Delta variant caught Alberta unaware. Is there any reason why that should be the case? Or should public health officials have been more aware that this thing could come and create more problems for those on the front lines and those who they're being who are being treated?

DR. ALEX WONG: I think both jurisdictions in Alberta and Saskatchewan chose to look at very optimistic data and modelling that came out of the United Kingdom. And again, I mean, you know, you can't go back and change what what was done. But at the same time, the UK was a very unique situation in the sense that they vaccinated virtually all of their large, large proportion of their adult population, almost all of their elderly population. And so, again, relying on that extremely optimistic modelling and ignoring what was going to take place in the United States and elsewhere, we knew that this was coming. And now the real challenge is trying, again, to advocate for us to be able to dial back policy with masking, with passports, with all of the other things. It was listening. Dr. Mithani, I mean, she's she's arguing about the fact that Alberta's massive mandate isn't universal. We don't even have a massive mandate in our province. And again, our system is on the brink right now. Literally no ICU beds in the entire province. So triage is imminent. And I'm not sure what it's going to take at this point in time for our policymakers to recognise this and reverse.

MG: What's your sense in the province? I mean, if the mandate were to be brought back in after a couple of months without it, how difficult would it be to convince people, including fully vaccinated people, to comply?

DR. ALEX WONG: Truly, I don't actually believe it's going to be that difficult of a thing. Again, I think most people, the vast majority of people at this point look at masking as a relatively simple, almost zero risk, all benefit type of intervention and the sort of thing that honestly is just trying to be respectful to one another and do that yourself.

MG: Do they really?

DR. ALEX WONG: I really I really do believe that. Now, of course, there's going to be a small proportion of the population not wear again. Masks are seen as something other than what they are, which is symbolic, political, whatever the case may be. And honestly, that is probably what is driving some of the decision making or lack of decision making or action with respect to our current provincial government. But the reality is, is that when there's a rule in place and everybody's doing it, 95, 98 percent of the people are doing it, then, you know, it's going to get done. I mean, you could look at- if you look at Manitoba just right next to us, the dynamics are very similar politically, geographically, all the rest of it. You don't hear a peep from anybody there and you know what I mean. They are killing it right now. And so, again, we can see very clearly the effect of policy. When you have good policy in place, it works. And when you don't, we struggle

MG: just in the last couple of minutes. I mean, one of the things we hear is that this is a pandemic now of the unvaccinated Alberta and Saskatchewan have the lowest and provincial vaccination rates in the country. Alberta is offering this 100 dollar incentive for people to get the job. What will it take to get more people immunised?

DR. ALEX WONG: The only thing that really is going to move the mark at this point and move it very quickly, which is what we need is some type of passport programme where, again, we limit quite strictly non-essential activities to individuals who are fully vaccinated with pretty much almost no exceptions other than for medical and religious exemptions. I mean, the evidence has shown very clearly that that makes a difference. You look at Manitoba, they've got, you know, vaccine rates eight to 10 percent higher than ours. And the only fundamental difference between Manitoba and Saskatchewan is that mandate that was put in place. And Manitoba got it right. And that is why, again, they're in the situation they're in right now, whereas we struggle. Lastly, the narrative around pandemic of the unvaccinated essentially just shifts blame. It just shifts the blame to individuals. And the reality here is, is that as we heard from Dr. Mithani, many, many individuals, we like to sort of this this narrative that everybody is an anti vaccine. And that is not the case. The majority of people who are eligible but not vaccinated remain individuals who are dealing with structural and social barriers. So to shift all of this to individual responsibility, it's just something that really, really I struggle with because in the end, it's our policymakers and our decision makers who have the responsibility to set good policy for us, you know, in the public health sphere and to shift the blame to individuals and to try to shift it away from our policymakers, I think is not a responsible narrative.

MG: in a word or two, or you really were worried about what's yet to come. I mean, this seems grim right now. What was just laid out by the two doctors, but is the worst still to come?

DR. ALEX WONG: Unfortunately, I think it is. I think the best case scenario is, is that we double again over the next couple of weeks, which would put us pretty much just out of hand, completely out of hand and in a medical triage situation. The hope from there, from the models and what's happened in the U.S. is that maybe our curve will peak, but we can't wait for that to happen. We need to do something.

MG: Dr. Wong, good to speak with you again. Thank you very much.

DR. ALEX WONG: Thank you, Matt, for the opportunity.

MG: Dr Alex Wong, infectious disease physician at the University of Saskatchewan. We did request interviews with Alberta Premier Jason Kenney, Health Minister Tyler Shandro, Chief Medical Officer of Health Dr. Deena Hinshaw, as well as Saskatchewan Premier Scott Moe, Health Minister Paul Merriman and Chief Medical Officer of Health Dr. Saqib Shahab. They either declined or we received no response. Your CBC News is next. And then, if you like me, are in Nova Scotia, you may have had to cancel your plans for this Friday nights. The province has put off entering phase five of its covid reopening plan. We'll get the view from the chief medical officer of health, Dr. Robert Strang, about a fourth wave in this province. That's coming up in six minutes. My name is Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One.

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Dr. Robert Strang on why Nova Scotia is putting its reopening plan on hold

Guest: Dr. Robert Strang

MG: Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway, and you're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, we'll continue our conversation with the filmmakers making waves at the Toronto International Film Festival. Danis Goulet's film Night Raider's paints a picture of a dystopian future, one where children are taken from their parents to be indoctrinated and often abused by the state. It is a futuristic film, but deeply rooted in this country's past. Our conversation in 30 minutes. But first, delayed gratification for Nova Scotia in the face of a fourth wave.

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MG: Nova Scotia is not facing the packed acres of Alberta and Saskatchewan that we just heard about, but the province isn't quite ready to forge ahead with a full reopening just yet. This province was supposed to enter phase five of its covid reopening plan today, but that step was pushed back by two and a half weeks and an announcement yesterday. Dr. Robert Strang is the chief medical officer of health for Nova Scotia. I met up with him yesterday here in Halifax.

SOUNDCLIP

MG: Dr. Strang, thank you for taking time to talk to us.

DR. ROBERT STRANG: Well, thanks, man, for the opportunity it is.

MG: We're standing here in the grand parade. It's a beautiful day. I'll admit you don't see a lot of people walking around with masks or things like that. How would you describe the mood in this province right now when it comes to the pandemic?

DR. ROBERT STRANG: So I think in general, people are understanding that we've worked really hard and we're in a relatively good place. But also just in this last week, things are shifting in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick API. So there's still a lot of, you know, people concerned. And we're actually announcing later today about how we're we're slowing down on some of our reopening to a recognition of that, the fourth wave risk. But by and large, I think people are are feeling comfortable with what we've done and willing to follow along with it because they know that's worked.

MG: Tell me a little bit about that decision making. I mean, again, there was a lot of excitement that essentially all of the pandemic restrictions would be lifted. No more mask mandate, what have you. Give us a look ahead. What is that actually going to look like in the days and weeks ahead, given the fourth wave that's around us now?

DR. ROBERT STRANG: Yes, or worse, we're announcing later today we're going to slow down on that, that even though we know we're going to meet our vaccine targets for tomorrow, we know it's vaccine plus epidemiology and things are evolving quickly now in the maritime provinces. So we're going to slow down. And October 4th is when we're bringing in our proof of vaccination policy. So we have to line up the removing the gathering limits, allowing more people to get together in timing, so when we do bring more people together, it's vaccinated people. So we're delaying until October 4th and we're going to keep the mandatory masking at least until October 4th as well.

MG: How do you think people are going to respond to that? People have been looking forward to this. I was in a taxi on the way here and the driver was gleeful when he heard I was coming from Ontario, that this province was on the verge of essentially him being able to take the mask and get rid of it. So how do you think people are going to respond to that?

DR. ROBERT STRANG: There's going to be some people like that, but I'm getting a lot of correspondence in the last two or three days, you know, people saying, please slow down. So I think by and large, most people are going to understand that what we've done and this is just another example of us Nova Scotia being slow, being cautious and reacting quickly, as is the epidemiology shifts. And I think most people will understand that they'll be disappointed. But I think most people will see the reason why we need to do this. And we're really saying it's for the next two and a half weeks, really. So let's just continue to be slow and cautious. And there'll always be some hope. No matter what we do, there's always some opposition. But by and large, most Nova Scotians have gone along with what we've done and knowing that that's necessary to keep all of us safe.

MG: What are you most concerned about in having to to put those breaks? I mean, what are you seeing around the province and in neighbouring jurisdictions that has led you to slow things down?

DR. ROBERT STRANG: It's really because what we're seeing now is it really is the pandemic of the unvaccinated. And we have really good vaccination rates, but we've got about 10 percent of our population that has has not vaccinated. We're almost 80 percent of our full population with one dose and getting to seventy five with two doses. But there's a I think we're going to end up with a still 10 percent of adults who could get vaccinated but aren't. And even that is enough to spark significant spread and outbreaks. And we're seeing that in other provinces. So with lower vaccination rates and in Nova Scotia, our health, like others, especially smaller provinces, our health system has is already pushed to capacity. So we have very, very little ability to absorb any significant number of hospitalisations due to covid. And to do that would require us ramping down other terms of health care, which we're seeing has its own set of very severe implications. So we're still have to focus on limiting spread, even though we're we're not worried about covid in all cases that we're worried about severe illness. But to limit the severe illness, we still have to be very careful about limiting the spread, which means hanging on to to masking, which means large numbers of people have to be have to be vaccinated to get together safely.

MG: We've seen with the return to school, for example, on PEI, a number of schools shut down, kids sent home. How worried are you about that manifesting here in Nova Scotia?

DR. ROBERT STRANG: So that is another factor on why we need to slow down. Clearly, we have more virus in the province. We've got, you know, a big outbreak in a confined community in northern Nova Scotia. But we're seeing some early signs of some community spread, mostly in younger adults unvaccinated in the Halifax area. But that has the risk of spilling into other populations, spilling into the under 12, especially who in schools. So that's another reason keeping our schools safe so we can keep kids learning in school is one of our key objectives. And so we have to be very cognisant about how much virus we allow to spread and putting our schools at risk.

MG: Is the reopening of schools putting what you have accomplished in jeopardy?

DR. ROBERT STRANG: So our schools have not shown themselves to be a major source of transmission within schools. I always say our schools are safe if our community's safe. So it's really a plea to say let's do what we need to do to keep our communities safe for a number of reasons. But one of those key ones is we need our children and youth. The best place for that. Most of them to learn is in school. So we need to do everything. Keeping kids in school is a key priority. And so that's a responsibility that lands on all of us because of how we keep our schools open and safe, is having our communities safe.

MG: When you get to that next phase, you have said that in some ways this new normal is going to be learning to live with covid. What does that mean?

DR. ROBERT STRANG: So, yeah, I think it is ultimately we need to be at a place where we can tolerate circulation of the virus like we do with something like influenza. But I have to caveat in saying, I think for a long time we've been too complacent about influenza and the impact that has on vulnerable people, especially seniors. And so I think there's things we can learn that as we start to get to a place where we can live more with a circulation of covid and other viruses in general, I keep saying to people that if we should all continue to wear masks in indoor places, especially during the winter months when we're around, other people, whether they're mandated or not, that keeps us all more healthy. We've had almost no influenza last winter and we have lots of less respiratory illness in schools and things. That's because masking handwashing and stuff, it works. So let's hang on to those. Maybe we don't need to mandate them, but we're not. I need to make the point that we're not yet in the place where we can say, you know, the cold virus is endemic and we have to live with it. We're in this. This fall is a really tricky transition period from an acute pandemic response to living with covid. So that's why we're trying to manage this with still having some levels of restrictions and mandatory mask mandating for various periods. And I think we've seen some other parts of Canada that have tried to make that shift to living with covid before you have really high vaccination levels, vaccines is critical, creates problems. So you know that we in Nova Scotia, we're really cautious and we've set higher bars for vaccine coverage in other provinces and we're not shifting until we hit those bars. And even if we are, we're meeting them now. Are there are we're responding to ah to epidemiology and saying we need to still be slow and we need to go further than that 75 percent. But just to be clear.

MG: That idea of living with this virus, you could imagine at some point in time, you know, later this year, next year, where people would wear a mask inside, given in winter months, in particular when the windows are closed and it's colder in the air is recirculating just to cut down on that spread?

DR. ROBERT STRANG: I think a lot of people I've talked to said they're going to continue to wear masks. And I think, you know, that is this part of our new normal? How do we actually be be more, I guess, have greater respect for for microbes, for bacteria, for viruses that are around us all the time. And there are things we can do that actually keep each other safer, which aren't that complicated, masking in certain places, better handwashing, better cleaning. That's not just for covid. That's we should have been doing a better job of those for for in the years prior. So let's learn from covid and have a I guess more a virus, safer communities, especially in the winter months.

MG: This province has been the envy of many jurisdictions across the country. What do you think you got right over the course of the pandemic?

DR. ROBERT STRANG: So I think a couple of things. I mean, certainly we have some geographic and demographic advantages. We don't have great big, you know, million densities. And that that's certainly an advantage. But I think we close, we use border measures very early on knowing we need to slow the virus down. I think the and I give Premier McNeil the credit for this at the very beginning. He said the health and safety of Nova Scotians comes first. And he set that tone and made my job much easier to work with him and now subsequent premiers to how do we actually keep Nova Scotia healthy and safe? And we've also learnt that through the through the first things, first and second waves especially. And now we're seeing it from the even the third wave that actually it's not the economy and public health are actually not in opposition, that actually the phrase we use is good public health is actually good economics because you minimise the time that you need tight restrictions and. As early as possible, so I think putting all those together, we've been able we haven't had this kind of divided approach. And I again, I think our approach starting with Premiere Neil and myself being together, speaking to Nova Scotia, we've been able to generate and hold on to, by and large, I think, a trust, even if we put in illegal measures, mandatory measures, you can't police that stuff. The only it only works if people believe and understand that why they need to do it. And that comes from a place of trust, trusting elected officials, trusting people like myself, that we have their best interests at heart. And so we've been I think we've been able to tap into that. By and large, it's fraying a bit now with some of the more polarised debates, but starting with a trusting relationship. And I think Nova Scotia, naturally, we've tapped into something that we get through hard times by caring for each other. And that's a message I've used from the very beginning, that how we do this is not so much about ourselves, about but how do we look after each other, even if it means doing some hard things for a short period of time.

MG: Let me ask you about the fraying. What goes through your mind when you see what's happening in Ontario, what's happening in British Columbia, other jurisdictions where people are protesting, where they're blocking hospital entrances so ambulances can't get in, patients can't get out, and people are attacking the science and those who are enacting the science.

DR. ROBERT STRANG: I find those are extremely troubling and they're very concerning to me. And hopefully they should be to other people about there are some fundamental issues there in our society that are very problematic, that we've without any issue become so quickly polarised and the people's loss of trust in science and elected officials and the extremes that they were going to that they're going to go to now to take those actions. And it's also very disappointing, I really believe, that we're we're meant to care for each other in general. That's one of my life's principles. And to me, what people are taking around this is a very self-centred, me focussed approach, not appreciating at all about the implications of what they're doing and how it plays out in a very negative ways in others life. And it's is both disturbing and also disappointing.

MG: Nova Scotia will bring in proof of vaccination requirements to go to certain venues, certain spaces, gyms, restaurants, etc.. Do you worry that that mandatory vaccination requirement could exacerbate those tensions, could exacerbate those divisions?

DR. ROBERT STRANG: It already is. I'm seeing that, you know, people who are very much opposed. And so, I mean, you know, the last briefing we had, I spoke to this I'm going to speak to it again that you're really appealing, that ultimately, even though we may have differences of opinion and make different choices, we need to continue again and come back to a key part of the successes that we've come together as communities and that we need to continue to do that, even if it involves some very difficult choices and maybe acknowledging people have different ultimately make different choices with those choices. Some implications about what you can and can't do simply because that's necessary for the greater good. So I am concerned about the division becoming worse and I'll do whatever I can to try to speak a more caring, compassionate approach into that space. You worry that

MG: your own health care workers could be attacked again. We're seeing this in other jurisdictions.

DR. ROBERT STRANG: I am concerned about how people are being treated. I think it's absolutely unconscionable that people who have been working beyond their capacity for 18 months to save people's lives and now they're getting targeted. I just, it actually makes my blood boil at that particular point, targeting health care workers. It is just not OK. I know my colleagues in health care it we do it because we care about people and we're willing to quite frightening people were willing to put their lives potentially at risk with covid. You know, they're still we've had lots of protection and those kind of things. It's not easy work. And then and then to have people come at you and say, well, this isn't based on any science or whatever and have no respect for you, but at the very personal level, have no respect and protest outside of and what's that's doing. You know, I saw people protesting at our at our paediatric hospital. There are sick kids going in there. That and it really disturbs me that some people in our society are OK with taking that kind of action. Sure. Protest voice your opinion, but do it in a respectful way in a place that is kind and respectful to others.

MG: Can I ask you just about the broader system? We're here in Nova Scotia and we're heading to Moscow, David Harbour, to talk to people about the impossibility in many ways of finding a family physician, finding primary care at the beginning of that health care system. And this has put huge strain on the larger system. Not going to draw you into politics, but the government flipped in many people's eyes because. One of the concerns that people had around the state of health care in this province, how large are the cracks in the system here?

DR. ROBERT STRANG: I mean, like Nova Scotia, like other provinces, our health care system is under very much under stress where we're at full capacity in our hospitals, even without covid. You know, we do have difficulties around access to care, but they're complex problems. Like we need to understand, you know, there's no simple solution. And people who are looking for a simple answer, it's not there. And I'm a public health guy. I always say, well, we need to do a better job of keeping healthy people healthy in the first place. If all we do is try to meet the demand for care, we will never, ever get out in front of that. We have to invest in. And it's things like affordable housing help, you know, early, early years, experience for children addressing race, racism and all the impacts of that. Those are fundamental to actually creating a healthier society, which then allows us to actually have a create an affordable public health care system. It's not just about how people get care tomorrow or. Yes, I get that. We need to deal with that, but we need to think longer term and bigger picture on on the solutions.

MG: So no matter who I mean this time next week, fingers crossed, there will be a government if all the votes are counted. And that could be a long process as well. But no matter who forms that go government, what do you think their priority needs to be in terms of thinking about preserving, enhancing, fixing, strengthening the public health care system that so many people in this country hold dear?

DR. ROBERT STRANG: Yeah, I mean, certainly there's going to be a lot of pressure about the level of federal investment. But I think and you get into the debate about, you know, consider what's health care. I think there's a space for the federal government to articulate what I just talked about, that all the things that what's the federal government's role in dealing with inequities and dealing with trying to solve the affordable housing crisis so they can lead in kind of many social policy areas which have very direct and and impacts on on people on the health and communities, which then allows us to be healthier people, healthier communities, gives us the space to say how do we then create a health care system that is publicly funded and affordable.

MG: It's been a busy 18 months. What's one thing that you have learnt over the course of this pandemic?

DR. ROBERT STRANG: I've learnt the resilience and dedication of my colleagues in health care. I've experienced and heard of so many stories about kindness and compassion, which is I use those are my three about caring community and common sense. But I've really pushed and how people have responded in so many ways, positive ways, about looking out for each other as we get through the difficult time and the pandemic. And that will stay with me.

MG: We'll let you get back to fighting the pandemic. I really appreciate you taking some time to talk to us this morning. Thank you.

DR. ROBERT STRANG: Thank you very much, Matt. It's a pleasure.

[Indistinct chatter]

Have a good trip to Muscatatuck. Yes. It's going to be dry on the Eastern Shore in September in Nova Scotia. September into the middle of October is like the best time. It's usually like this, but it's not super hot.

MG: My conversation yesterday with Dr. Robert Strang, chief medical officer of health for Nova Scotia. Yes, indeed. September is beautiful here. We went down to Muscovite yesterday and to Martinique Beach, which is just stunning with the ocean and the sun shining. It was lovely. We're heading off to Muscat job at Harbour later today to speak about the challenges of rural health care. That will be the focus of an entire special programme on The Current tomorrow. One of the issues we'll talk about is that one in five million Canadians over the age of 12 don't have a health care provider like a family doctor. This is something that so many people across the country feel in rural places. The shortage is at its worst. We're asking what happens to a community when so many people can't get health care when they need it?

SOUNDCLIP

MIKE: I had two heart attacks. I had one shortly after Christmas, and I had one right after New Year's. I had one on the 8th of January. I had woken up about four o'clock in the morning. Then it became difficult breathing.

MG: It's Mike Coulombe at his kitchen table outside of Muskat at Harbour that morning. In January, Mike and his wife Marian were faced with a difficult decision, one that a growing number of Nova Scotia and say they are forced to make to call an ambulance with the fear that it might take more than an hour to arrive or make the risky drive to the hospital themselves. They chose to drive to their community hospital there.

SOUNDCLIP

MIKE: Once I was in the hospital after the they had definitely confirmed that I had suffered multitudes of heart attacks and they were trying to get me an ambulance to Dartmouth Hospital. I was told that there is no damage, which Nova Scotia available to transport me from most gadabout hospital to Dartmouth, and that I was going to remain there unfed for 14 hours.

MARIAN: We kept. Saying, well, why can't I go and drive? And they kept saying, well, no, you're not supposed to go because we were waiting for the ambulance,

MIKE: but it was 14 hours and it was definitely 14 hours. It was from seven o'clock in the morning till ten thirty at night. And that's when the final decision was made for my wife to transport me from Musquodoboit.

MARIAN: What the duty nurse said to me, she says, I'm going to tell you if he has problems, she goes, what is breathing again? Or something comes up. You pull over on the side of the road, she goes and you call 911, she goes don't continue driving

MIKE: them when they got to the hospital two days. Two days in a court. An emergency waiting for a hospital bed just just blows me away. I mean, if it wasn't for some friends or family, managed to acquire a patient bed from the Nova Scotia hospital and brought in an emergency for me. So he actually brought a bed to the hospital. I had a bed transported. I mean. When I got up to ICU into the cardiac ward, exceptional care, exceptional care, but down below, you're just, you're just you're just nothing on a goddamn slab. They only offer me food only after I asked for it. You're just a piece of meat on a slab. That's what you are. I mean, I thought emergencies were emergency care was to move patients from the beginning of the hospital and into the hospital to pay for care, not to store people and ignore them, because that's what I felt like as I got put in emergency. And I was stored there for like like for almost three days. I'm sorry, the emergency care is busted.

MG: Busted. Those are Mike and Marian Coulombe near Musquodoboit Harbour, Nova Scotia. We're going to be in that community tonight hosting a community forum to examine Canada's health care crisis. And you'll hear it tomorrow morning on The Current. Well, coming up after your regional update.

SOUNDCLIP

It isn't just about our pain and trauma. It's about our strength and resilience and power as indigenous people.

MG: Danis Goulet's film Night Raiders takes a look at this country's ugly past by creating a dystopian future. This is one of the films that's getting a lot of attention at the Toronto International Film Festival and for very good reason. It's excellent. I'll speak with her about the film's premiere this week and about strength, resilience and pride. That's coming up in 90 seconds. My name is Matt Galloway in Halifax and you're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One. Stay with us.

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Night Raiders: telling the story of residential schools through film

Guest: Dana Scully

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway, and you're listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

We pledge our hearts, and give our allegiance to our glorious republic, we praise the great celebration for emancipating us and solemnly swear to protect it in the name of God, our liberty and freedom. One country, one language, one flag.

MG: In the not too distant future, children over the age of five are property of the state forced to attend state run academies, they are subjected to indoctrination, brainwashing, and, as one character puts it, unspeakable things. The new film, Night Raiders can't fail to remind Canadians of this nation's not too distant past when indigenous children were forced to attend residential schools. The film is now screening as part of the Toronto International Film Festival. Dana Scully is the writer and director of Night Raiders and joins me now. Good morning.

DANA SCULLY: Morning, Matt.

MG: Congratulations on this.

DANA SCULLY: Thank you so much.

MG: You have this film. You have been given the Emerging Artist Award at TIFF. What does it mean for you to have this film celebrated this way in this country?

DANA SCULLY: Yeah, I mean, it's a really big year and it feels like there's a lot coming together. Obviously, it's a huge honour to receive the award. And I feel like I really share it with the indigenous film community who have been such a source of strength and inspiration that I've been a part of and grew up with for many years. So I love that we're finally coming to a place in indigenous storytelling where we're seeing many more huge stories get made and platformed and celebrated. Last year's recipient of the award was Tracy Deer, another indigenous filmmaker, talking about the Oka crisis. So, yeah, it's really amazing. It feels like it's a moment that we want to keep going.

MG: This is work that you've been fighting for for a long time. Does it feel like a moment? Does it feel like the culmination of much of the work that you've been doing over time?

DANA SCULLY: Yeah, it really does. You know, I was a part of writing a report a few years ago on the lack of feature film production in Canada. And I was involved with the imaginative film and Media Arts Festival way back in the early 2000s. And that's the festival that celebrates indigenous voices. And back in those days, it really felt like we were invisible. And so, you know, this many years later, it finally feels like we're seeing support for work to get made that we had never seen before. And so right now, I feel like we're in the middle of an explosion of work. And, yeah, it feels really good to have finally gotten somewhere like my film when it got made. I believe it was the largest budget indigenous film made in Canada. But just the year earlier, just Barnaby's blood quantum had been the largest budget film ever made in Canada. So it felt like we were starting to be recognised in ways and actually get resources in ways that we had been asking about for years. And at this time, I also really think about the early waves of indigenous filmmakers and how many doors must have closed on them and how many battles they had to fight and all of the stories that they didn't get to tell because of the racism in the industry. So, yeah, you know, a whole community has been holding a vision for something for many years, and it's beautiful to see it coming to fruition.

MG: As a filmmaker, what what does that kind of budget allow you to do creatively that you wouldn't be able to do on a smaller budget?

DANA SCULLY: It allows you to build worlds. And I really love films that feel tactile, like you can touch them and feel the world. And although we did use a lot of the effects to embellish our world, I really always push to shoot on location as opposed to in studio. And so to go to all of those locations costs a lot of money. And then at the VFX on top of that, in order to embellish those worlds, you know, when you're trying to create a near future, you really do need resources to do that.

MG: Describe the near future that this film is set in. I mean, it's set in the city of Toronto and other areas. But what is what does that city look like and what's happened to it?

DANA SCULLY: Yes, so this is very much a dystopian vision, it imagines that North America has fallen apart in the aftermath of a civil war and that people's movement is strictly controlled and that there's a huge wall that's been built and there are those who are disenfranchised that live on one side of the wall and others that live on the other side and that you cannot cross. And that also there's a state presence that presents as benevolent, being helpful and giving food handouts and things like that. But later in the film, we learn they have a much more sinister agenda.

MG: And for the kids, I mean, what happens with these kids when they turn five?

DANA SCULLY: Yeah, so the kids get taken away from their parents and taken to state run academies where they're brainwashed and indoctrinated into the dominant culture thinking. And one of the things they bestow is one country, one language, one flag. So it's very much a mono culture. And they're trained to become child soldiers essentially, and to fight on behalf of the state that they're being indoctrinated into.

MG: Why was science fiction for you, the vehicle that you wanted to tell this story through?

DANA SCULLY: Well, around 2013 or actually maybe around twenty twelve. I remember witnessing the Idle No More Movement, which was a movement that swept across Canada. It was started by four matriarchs on the prairies. And I'm originally from Saskatchewan and I was just glued to the live feed of all of these youth and beautiful people from our communities standing up. And they were doing round dances in malls at the height of the Christmas shopping season. And I felt like I was witnessing a kind of resistance that was the biggest one that had been on the prairies since I was a kid. And to see the youth standing up, being seen and heard in such a way, it started to shift the way I wanted to tell stories. And I knew that I had to start to tell stories about our power. And around that time, I was also making a short film called Awakening, which explored a dystopian Toronto. And there was something about moving into the genre space that really freed me up as a filmmaker to talk about the things that I wanted to talk about. But they just gave me a fresh entry point into talking about it.

MG: I mean, this could be set now, but the fact that it set in the future is really interesting. And you've said that it's a powerful thing to place indigenous people into the future. What do you mean by that?

DANA SCULLY: Well, residential schools were and the other colonial policies that are being explored in the film, everything is set in an imaginary future. But every single thing that happened in the film are based on the policies that have been inflicted upon indigenous people. And, yeah, I mean, it's been a difficult year, just the summer. We have been you know, communities have been engaging in uncovering thousands of graves of indigenous children across the country. And we're really just at the beginning of this process. And this went on for seven generations of indigenous families. This had a profound effect. It's so big, it's very difficult to grapple with. You know, when the truth and reconciliation released their findings in twenty fifteen, they found that an indigenous child had a greater chance of dying going into a residential school than a Canadian soldier did going into World War Two. And we recognise the contributions of soldiers, and yet we can't even get the records of children that died at residential schools released. And so that's how little dignity our communities have been given in this process. And part of why I wanted to tell the story and going into the future frees you up because you can talk about things loudly. And one of the things that I wanted to challenge was this narrative that Canada is always saying about itself, which is that we are polite and peaceful. And this was a project to civilise indigenous children and children were ripped from their families, some as young as four years old. They were neglected, abused, beaten and killed. And then we get fed a narrative that we are the savages. You know, I think we need to reject these false narratives about indigenous people that perpetuate so much harm. After all the harm that's already been done. But we also have to challenge the narratives that we talk about for ourselves. But looking forward into the future and going back to that moment at idle no more. The youth gave me so much hope and I felt like I had to give that back in some ways because this was an attempt to eradicate indigenous people on our own land. We deserve to have a future. And so when we think about ourselves in a future that is actually a subversive act and I think after so much loss and trauma, it can be really easy to lose sight of hope. But the way that we give hope is for the younger generations to see us taking action. And indigenous people have been fighting for so many years for justice. But we need more than just indigenous people to fight for justice. And I would hope and I would dare to believe that many Canadians are willing to look at the truth of what happened and admit that that is who we are, that that was done in the name of Canada, but that that is not who we want to be going forward. And so, you know, in telling stories like this, it's simply to express our humanity and our empathy. And we love our children just as much as everybody else did, and we owe it to them to make it better for the future.

MG: Some of those scenes are captured in the film, the scenes of children being ripped from the arms of their parents, that happened, as you said, in real life as a filmmaker. What was it like to to shoot that?

DANA SCULLY: Yeah, you have to engage in a process that creates the safest circumstances for everybody. This is also part of why it's so important to have an indigenous presence on set. So the indigenous screen office funded indigenous mentees to join us because it can still be difficult to find indigenous crew for different positions. And there was a moment where we were shooting a very difficult scene and we needed I could feel that something was off and we needed to smudge, which is, you know, it's a cultural practise. And the call went out on set. We need to smudge we needed to find a stage. And one of our keets, Lee, had a smudge in his car and he ran out to get it. And and you know how expensive it is to stop a film shoot. I just said we are stopping. We're not going forward until we can do this in the right way in a way that makes the actors feel safe because they are also bringing their own lived experience as indigenous people to the role. And so we have to keep them safe in that. And any time there were actors on set engaging in recreating those kinds of scenes, I just was did my best to be right there with them and ask them what they needed through that and to thank them and to do whatever cultural things that we needed to do in order to create safety in that situation.

MG: I mean, that's for the actors, but that's also for you. I mean, that's got to be hard for you as the filmmaker.

DANA SCULLY: Oh, yeah. I mean, there were many emotional moments where we just had to stop and breathe because telling a story about the future is also offering a layer of protection. You know, if you are talking about something that doesn't yet exist, it allows you to go into the space with a certain kind of freedom and that is protective for everybody.

MG: The film stars Elle Mye Tail Feathers as Nisko. In this scene, her friend Roberta is giving her advice about what to do with the 11 year old daughter she has been harbouring illegally. Take a listen.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: You could send her to school, get her citizenship. Oh, Piers, having a really good life in Emerson away from all this.

VOICE 2: Yeah, but you'll never see him again.

VOICE 1: You looked after her when she needed her mom the most. Do you really want her to be stuck here? They have no out. My son has it. So much more there than I could ever give here.

MG: It's a scene from the new film Night Raiders. Dana Scully is the writer and director. Tell me about that scene and what's going on there. It's because it it's counterintuitive in some ways, but it speaks to the complexity of the issue around residential schools and around how people in that moment we're we're grappling with what was going on.

DANA SCULLY: Well, yeah, because there are so many narratives that are sold as having promised, you know, who doesn't want a better life for their child, maybe if they go away and be educated somewhere that can somehow help them. And, you know, like if we go back to the Indian Act in eighteen seventy six, which came into existence 11 years after Canada became a country, it controlled all aspects of indigenous life. It put indigenous people onto reserves. It restricted their movement through the past system, which was an illegal system. It outlawed our cultural practises and it restricted life. And so it makes living untenable. And it also robbed communities of their agency to determine who were their own people, who are their own citizens. And suddenly it was the government of Canada determining who was First Nations, Inuit and Mayte in their own eyes, and that robbing of agency and also the erasure of an ability to live traditionally on the land the way they had for generations. So you put people in an impossible situation and then you give them an impossible choice and you say, OK, yeah, things are really bad here. You have been robbed of your agency. You no longer can practise your culture and your traditions. You can no longer live on your traditional homelands. But, hey, we want to help you. We want to help you create civilised children. And so we have a solution. You send them to the schools and they're going to have a brighter future. That's better than this life you have here, which, by the way, we created. And I find that individuals under that oppression, it's hard to put your finger on just how systemic it is. Residential schools were in place for seven generations of indigenous families, and it was by law you had no choice. You had to send your child. And yet it's being sold as this thing that's going to help them. And so that scene was very much an expression of the impossible situation that indigenous families were facing. And I remember when I listened to the testimony of survivors during this Tassy process, there was one father who stood up and he was weeping and he was apologising to his children for not being a good parent and for all of the things that he couldn't be for, for them. And that kind of shame becomes internalised. And it was so heartbreaking to see that he blamed himself for something that was done to him. And it really made me think about what the parents of children had to go through.

MG: What was it like for you watching the conversations that unfolded over the course of this summer?

DANA SCULLY: Yeah, I mean, it's been very difficult, it's been a time of mourning, it's been very painful. And and when you're talking about thousands of dead children. And we're really at the beginning of this process, you know, to me, this is a project of genocide. And there are some people that would debate that word, but when you look someone in the eye and you tell them we are talking about thousands of dead children that are unaccounted for, and the first response is to argue about the use of a word. What that says to me is that they're saying, oh, it's not actually as bad as you're saying it is. And to me, that is a failure to acknowledge the truth. And that kind of denial actually compounds the pain and it ultimately distracts from what's most important, which is that we all support justice and healing for our communities and we have to be able to look at this truth in the face. This was a systematic attempt to eradicate indigenous people. And, you know, we hear so much in the media about reconciliation, but the Tea Party stands for truth and reconciliation. And it's funny how that word gets skipped over quite a bit because the truth is very hard to hold. It is very hard to look at that and say that that happened. And to me, we are still in the truthtelling stage. We can't even get anywhere near reconciliation unless we're able to grapple with this truth. And to me, words are powerful and it's OK that they're powerful. It's OK that they challenge us. And that's why I say and I choose them carefully and say that it was a project of genocide.

MG: As a filmmaker, is there something this isn't a documentary. It's a feature film. But is there something that art can do to tell that story that would that would connect with audiences in a different way, that would connect with Canadians in a different way?

DANA SCULLY: Absolutely. I mean, this is my hope for what the film does, and I hope that speaks to people. You know, I think there are many different ways to tell stories. And I love documentary, but I think I chose this particular genre as an entry point that I would hope invite everybody in to this story and this experience. And that isn't just about our pain and trauma. It's about our strength and resilience and power as indigenous people and also our right to have a future and to hope for a good future for our community.

MG: I mean, one of the most powerful lines in the film, it comes towards the end. I'm not giving anything away, but it says we are we are still here. What does that mean to you?

DANA SCULLY: Yeah, I think one of the questions that the film asks is what does it mean not just to survive, but to thrive? And, you know, the fact that indigenous people have survived everything that has been done to them is enough. That is incredible resilience and it should be celebrated. But I would hope going into the future that the youth shouldn't have to be as resilient as previous generations have been. And so I hope for a future that looks different than the past that we've all been living in. And what it means not just to survive, but to thrive means that we are deserving of love, that we're deserving of dignity, that we're deserving of community, and that we're deserving of healthy families and healthy communities. And so that's part of what's explored in the story when the character Niska comes into a community that lives on the land.

MG: It's a beautiful film and it's really powerful and it arrives at an incredibly important time. Congratulations again. And I hope everybody sees this.

DANA SCULLY: Thank you so much that I appreciate it.

MG: Dana Scully is the writer and director of the new feature film Night. It's screening as part of the Toronto International Film Festival, which runs through Sunday. That is The Current for this Wednesday. Coming up next on CBC Radio One, it's Q. As you have been hearing, the comedian Norm MacDonald died yesterday after a private nine year battle with cancer. Q will revisit his conversation with Tom Power from 2016 just after Norm released his memoir. Norm MacDonald was one of this country's beloved sons. He was a Quebecer and a Canadian went to the United States to write for Roseanne, took over Saturday Night Live weekend update. Chevy Chase called him the only other guy to be funny in that chair. Norm MacDonald also told the world's most convoluted joke. And that is what we wanted to leave you with today, because it's Canadian, because it's classic Norm and because it is hilarious. This is from an appearance on Conan O'Brien's late night show in 2014. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. I'll see you tomorrow.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: When I was young, there was a fella that went by the name of Jack De Gottier. And he was from [unintelligible] and Jack De Gottier, he was a fellow that really thought and he was smart, you know, he was our hope, I guess. And he was well, I was scrambling to get out of high school, Jack The Gatineau. I got to know that already.

VOICE 2: I think he just changed his last name.

VOICE 1: Well, you know, a man grows he. But this is the point. Yeah, the you know, he went to McGill University, you got three degrees, by golly, and he went to the river across the pond to the fellows with Cambridge and he even stood up to them and we thought, boy, he's going to be the next we had Jean Marchant, Pierre Trudeau, the three wise men of Quebec backed by God. Jack denGatineau was going to be the next.

VOICE 2: Give me the next guy.

VOICE 1: Yeah, but he vanished and I met him. I started to do stand up and and travel from here to there and to here again. And one time I was in Niagara Falls and by gosh, I went over to the Sea World there. You don't have to have the Sea World, you know, with the different fish. You know.

VOICE 1: I didn't know that, but OK. Yes. Sea World, I've been there many a time.

VOICE 2: OK, so I was checking out the beluga whales and stuff and I look over and who do you think I see?

VOICE 1: I hope it's that guy. No, it was it was just an attendant, but. But he showed me to the place I wanted to see, which is where they feed the little baby dolphins because I love dolphins, you know, and who do I see there? Jack de Gatineau. And here he is. He's feeding the baby dolphins. And I go up to him and I go, Jack de Gatineau, I feel shame for you. You were our hope. You were to go to Canada. Canada's nation's capital of Ottawa. And you were to be a great man, Jack de Gatineau, and we were all, you know, we pinned all of our love, in Quebec, pinned our hopes on you. Now, that's a hell of a burden for a man to have a town's hope pinned on them, isn't it?

VOICE 2: It is a big burden.

VOICE 1: So he was feeding his baby dolphins, you know? And I said, I'm ashamed of you, Jack. You got to know you could have done so many great things. And he said, well, he said, I think I'm serving a useful purpose now. I believe that...

VOICE 2: You know, I knew that was going to happen. I knew that.

VOICE 1: You sure encourage that. It's like it was a 40 minute story. Think somebody you put it this.

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Wednesday September 15, 2021 Full Transcript

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