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The Loop Transcript for September 03, 2021

Host: Clare Bonnyman

CLARE BONNYMAN: Hey, I’m Clare Bonnyman, and welcome to “The Loop”.

[music: theme]

Prologue

CLARE BONNYWAN: There's a lot going on in the city. And, yes, I know I start a lot of episodes with that sentence, but it is true. So much of what was put on hold earlier in the pandemic has returned. And the rest of life, honestly, it's overwhelming. But right now, it feels like Edmonton can only talk about two things: politics and the pandemic. As cases get worse, we find ourselves heading into a federal election first. Less than a month later, we vote municipally.

Missing Politicians

Guest: Michelle Bellefontaine

CLARE BONNYMAN And right, now we're in the middle of a political mystery. Thousands of Alberta children go back to school this week. All well COVID-19 cases continue to climb with no end in sight. Meanwhile, it's been weeks since Premier Jason Kenney, Health Minister Tyler Shandro, and Chief Medical Officer of Health Dr. Deena Hinshaw have addressed the public. That changed last night, Wednesday, September 1st, when Kenney finally appeared in a Facebook Live. Michelle Bellefontaine is a provincial affairs reporter who covers the Alberta legislature and is joining me now to talk about this very strange time [both laughing] in Alberta politics. Hi, Michelle.

MICHELLE BELLEFONTAINE: Hi, Clare. And yes, a very strange time indeed. You're absolutely right.

CLARE BONNYMAN: Yeah. I mean, we're talking Thursday morning. As we said, Jason Kenney finally emerged last night. How long had it actually been since anyone had seen him?

MICHELLE BELLEFONTAINE: About 23 days.

CLARE BONNYMAN: Oooof!

MICHELLE BELLEFONTAINE: So his last appearance was on August the 9th, which was a Monday. And he made an appearance at the Labatt's brewery in Edmonton for an announcement that basically announced 25 jobs. And then he kind of disappeared. And it was kind of weird at first because, I mean, you know, he does a lot of things besides hold news conferences. But then time marched on. Let's talk about the numbers here, for example. So on August the 9th, that general time here, I think it was August 10th, there was... there were 279 active cases in Alberta, 133 people in hospital and 29 in ICU. So as of yesterday, which would be September 1st, we have 1,315 active cases, 465 people in hospital, and 107 in intensive care.

CLARE BONNYMAN: Oooof!

MICHELLE BELLEFONTAINE: So pretty fair to say that the numbers have really, really gone up. And we have heard like nothing, nothing from Kenny, nothing from Tyler Shandro, nothing from Dr. Deena Hinshaw, except on social media like Twitter and whatnot. So, you know, we started asking questions and his staff said, well, he is on vacation, he's taking vacation. You know, he's off for two weeks. And... but, you know, when you pressed for specifics.

CLARE BONNYMAN: Yeah.

MICHELLE BELLEFONTAINE: When did he leave? When is he coming back? Where did he go? You would just get this statement that addressed nothing, just saying he's off for two weeks. And, in fact, I found the communications was somewhat hostile from the staff who were normally not that way. Things can get a little bit prickly sometimes.

CLARE BONNYMAN: [chuckles] You work pretty closely together.

MICHELLE BELLEFONTAINE: Yeah. Yeah. But this time, it was just... it was very, very bizarre. You know, and then the aggravating factor is, is that it appears that Tyler Shandro, the health minister, was also away at the same time. And so, you know, there's these questions about, well, who's running the ship?

CLARE BONNYMAN: Yeah.

MICHELLE BELLEFONTAINE: And then, after all this time, Kenny suddenly appears on Facebook Live last night at about 7:15, and, you know, with little warning. So he took questions from the public about a wide variety of issues like he typically does when he holds these Facebook Lives. But he was also asked about where the heck he was for the last three weeks and why he was making his first appearance on Facebook live?

SOUNDCLIP

JASON KENNEY: Well, I'm hiding in plain view, Briden. Normally, we get tens of thousands of viewers, and I'm able to answer dozens of questions here, more than news conferences. But this goes straight to ordinary Albertans, gives you a chance, and others a chance, to ask a question. I think that's public accountability right there.

MICHELLE BELLEFONTAINE: OK, [Clare chuckles] so a bit... a bit to unpack here, Clare.

CLARE BONNYMAN: Yeah, so he's here! He's real!

MICHELLE BELLEFONTAINE: Yes, he is. [Clare laughs] Yeah, he actually did... actually, it was quite funny. At one point during the Facebook Live, some guy actually said, we don't believe that you're actually here. It's taped. So Kenney actually sort of held up a clock to say, see, it's like 8:07 p.m.

CLARE BONNYMAN: [ghasps] It's like when a hostage holds up a newspaper.

MICHELLE BELLEFONTAINE: [both laughing] It was kind of like the weirdest thing. It was like, OK, we believe you. But, you know, he talked about public accountability.

CLARE BONNYMAN: Right.

MICHELLE BELLEFONTAINE: OK, so [sigh] Facebook Lives are not the same as a media news conference. You know, Kenney and his staff can choose the questions, and there are no follow-up questions. And any journalist knows, as you know, that follow-up questions are frequently the most important tool in a journalist's toolbox. He gets a question. He can go on and on as he pleases. There's nobody interjecting. There's nobody challenging him.

CLARE BONNYMAN: Right.

MICHELLE BELLEFONTAINE: And, I mean, as I said on Twitter last night, you know, it gives the impression that he's making himself available to public. But it really doesn't provide the accountability that's required in this situation, which is a very serious situation. We're in the middle of a fourth wave. People are in hospital. People are dying. People have a lot of legitimate questions. You know, and this is a tactic he's used before when, you know, the heat gets a little hot for him politically. He goes on Facebook Live, and he can sort of get his message out there unchallenged.

CLARE BONNYMAN: It's interesting to note too the reaction to this and how much it's changed. We were talking about people created missing posters.

MICHELLE BELLEFONTAINE: Oh yeah!

CLARE BONNYMAN: I don't think people have been as invested in the location of a premier in a very long time, maybe? [chuckling]

MICHELLE BELLEFONTAINE: Absolutely, yeah! I mean, you were saying that you've seen them around Edmonton.

CLARE BONNYMAN: Oh yeah! I go out on my bike, and they're up on poles and are like, "missing: Jason Kenney". And they list a height and everything. And... and even someone taped his face to a milk carton. But... but he is one guy, and obviously, he has a cabinet. He has other people working for him.

MICHELLE BELLEFONTAINE: Yes.

CLARE BONNYMAN: So where have they been through all this?

MICHELLE BELLEFONTAINE: OK, that's a really good question because he is one member of the government. The government of Alberta is essentially the cabinet, right? He's got about 20 other people on the cabinet. They all are decision-makers. And it appears that nobody was designated to speak for the government or sort of... kind of man the helm. Like other premiers have appointed deputy premier's.

CLARE BONNYMAN: Right. That's the normal thing to do.

MICHELLE BELLEFONTAINE: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of... it's not really an official position so much. It's more ceremonial. But the people do it. Like under Alison Redford, it was Thomas Lukaszuk. When Rachel Notley was the premier, it was Sarah Hoffman.

CLARE BONNYMAN: Right.

MICHELLE BELLEFONTAINE: That's what made this whole situation so bizarre with Kenny is just like, who's... who's the guy? [Clare chuckles] Who's the gal? Like, who's the person who's speaking for the government?

CLARE BONNYMAN: Yeah.

MICHELLE BELLEFONTAINE: And then... and then the other thing [laughing] is that, you know, we've seen some very bizarre attempts by the government to keep the members of cabinet away from reporters. So I think a lot of people saw a clip from CTV the other night that went viral. The VJ, the journalist in Red Deer, went to Lacombe to talk to Ron Orr, who is the culture minister. Ron Orr was holding some kind of event announcing Culture Days in Alberta. And so this reporter thought, all right, well, he's there. He's a member of cabinet. I'm going to go and ask him about where Jason Kenney is and what's going on. And as we saw in the clip, he was trying to ask the question, but the press secretary for Ron Orr like actively intervened and just said, no, this is about Culture Days. No, you can't ask this question. And just basically took the... took the minister away, [sigh] you know? And then yesterday, we heard that Adriana LeGrange actually made an appearance before Strathcona County Council because they were debating the mask mandate. But again, no notification. And I mean, in normal times, something like LeGrange would have been listed on the itinerary. So, yeah.

CLARE BONNYMAN: It's changed so much!

MICHELLE BELLEFONTAINE: Then… then what happened.

CLARE BONNYMAN: [both laughing] And then, Michele!

MICHELLE BELLEFONTAINE: And, of course, Tuesday was the fiscal update.

CLARE BONNYMAN: Right!

MICHELLE BELLEFONTAINE: The first quarter fiscal update. Travis Towes, the finance minister, he makes an appearance. And I mean, he wants to obviously talk about his fiscal update because, you know, things are looking up. Resource revenues are really great. High oil prices. The deficit is 10 billion dollars less than originally forecast. But he has to face questions about, well, what's going on with you guys? And so here's one thing that happened. This is one of the last questions at the news conference with Travis Towes. Now, the reporter you hear asking the question is Lisa Johnson from the Edmonton Journal. She's a little bit muffled because, you know, she like me and all the other reporters at the Alberta legislature, we continue to wear our masks, even to news conferences.

SOUNDCLIP

LISA JOHNSON: Dr. Hinshaw promised modelling. That hasn't been released. Doctor Hinshaw is not here. Premier Jason Kenney is not here. Health Minister Taylor Shandro is not here. So what would you say to Albertans who believe that this government has abdicated responsibility and is not steering the ship?

TRAVIS TOWES: Well, I would say that's an entirely false premise. Again, our chief medical officer of health has been providing daily updates to Albertans around... around the pandemic.

MICHELLE BELLEFONTAINE: It's worth noting these daily updates that Towes is referring to are on Twitter. They're through the chief medical officer of health's Twitter account, which is run by her staff.

CLARE BONNYMAN: Right.

MICHELLE BELLEFONTAINE: I mean, that's certainly not the same as a forum where media can ask questions, ask follow-ups, that kind of thing.

CLARE BONNYMAN: Yeah. And that brings up another absence that we've noticed, a really big question, which is what about Dr. Deena Hinshaw? I mean, we got so used to seeing her regularly. Like, her voice was in my head at all times [both laugh] it felt like for a moment there. But what's happened to her?

MICHELLE BELLEFONTAINE: That's a really good question. Nobody knows. We are hearing today that there possibly might be a news conference this afternoon. And then last night, Kenny... well, let's put it this way. There's been rumours out there that she's quitting. I don't normally like to talk about rumours, but in this case, it's part of the story. The government has denied it. Last night, Kenney was asked about it during the Facebook Live, and he said no. He says, I was just in a meeting with her. She's still working for us. But I mean, the thing that's weird is that, you know, again, there's this radio silence. Like, she has fronted... back in July, the province announced, you know, this very controversial move that as of I think it was August the 16th, they were going to stop, you know, mandatory isolation for COVID cases. They were going to stop contact tracing and scale back testing. And so, of course, people were very angry about that. They were very scared, and there were a lot of protests. And then, on the 13th of August, which is the last time we saw her in public, she walked it back, and it was her. I mean, partly walked it back. I mean, they're basically postponing it to the end of September.

CLARE BONNYMAN: Right. There was a six-week extension.

MICHELLE BELLEFONTAINE: Exactly. You know, and then there's the question about the numbers, the modelling. People are asking, well, what was the data that you relied on to make this decision in the first place? Oh, yeah, no, it's coming. It's coming. We still don't have it. We're still waiting for that data. There's just a lot going on there. The problem is, too, is that, you know, when you have a vacuum, and you have silence, then rumours and speculation do start to fill that vacuum. And I mean, now we have a group of doctors who are led by Dr. Joe Vipond. They're now holding their own updates every day at 4:00 p.m.

CLARE BONNYMAN: Right.

MICHELLE BELLEFONTAINE: The COVID numbers usually come out around 3:30. And then the other thing is that, you know, the usual issue, managers who are on Twitter, they've been quiet as well. So it's just like this dome of silence, and.

CLARE BONNYMAN: Why?

MICHELLE BELLEFONTAINE: [both chuckling] Yeah! Why?

CLARE BONNYMAN: There's so many why questions. But why do you think there's been so much silence? Where --

MICHELLE BELLEFONTAINE: The prevailing theory is that, well, there's a federal election on right now. The federal Conservative leader, Erin O'Toole, has told Kenny to lie low. Kenney is not a very popular figure right now. There's a sense that they just don't want Justin Trudeau, the Liberal leader, to be able to use Kenney as a punching bag for Conservatives. Kenney is known for being very combative. You know, when he gets in news conferences, you know, he can be very thin-skinned. I mean, that's my experience with him. It's a fact. And then, you know, it's funny, like last night, Kenney did acknowledge this is sort of... like, he said that, you know, it's typical... he usually makes funding announcements when he goes before the public. And it's typical during an election not to make funding announcements. So that's why he hasn't been around. I mean, that's what he's said. But the thing is, is that there's nothing stopping him and saying, you know what? I'm going to have a news conference to take questions about COVID-19. Certainly, if he made himself available to talk about COVID-19, I think people would be there.

CLARE BONNYMAN: There are questions for him. There are difficult questions. [chuckling]

MICHELLE BELLEFONTAINE: Yeah. I mean, my theory is, Clare, they don't know what to do. Back in June, he held this news conference. It was on June 18th. And it was this big Alberta's open for summer news conference. And this is when they lifted pretty much all the restrictions as of July 1st, including mask mandates. They opened everything up. And his, you know, staffers were kind of pushing the whole best summer ever line and selling hats on the UCP website.

CLARE BONNYMAN: Yeah. Right. [chuckling]

MICHELLE BELLEFONTAINE: For him at the time, it was all about the vaccines. The vaccines would do everything. You didn't need to have other restrictions. The vaccines were it. And have to believe in the science of the vaccines. The case numbers were fairly low and as were the hospitalizations. I was watching the news conference yesterday to prepare for this. And it's just like there's very little in that news conference that's aged very well. You know, it's only been about, what, two months? He said that at the time, he didn't foresee a scenario where hospitalizations would increase again. He said that Alberta was opened for good, not just open for the summer. He downplayed the effect of the Delta virus, in fact, even mocked CTV for doing a story about the possible fourth wave. And he told Albertans to embrace the, you know, the science of vaccines, not to fear the lifting of nearly all restrictions, to support Alberta businesses. And he said people shouldn't listen to what he called the promoters of fear. And he even praised Texas for opening up so early, which I mean, again, you know, we've all seen what's been going on down there with COVID cases.

CLARE BONNYMAN: Yeah.

MICHELLE BELLEFONTAINE: So here we are two months later, and the scenario Kenney said the government didn't foresee happening is happening. You know, and then we've got Edmonton City Council. They're putting in a mask mandate as of Friday, September the 3rd. Calgary is going to be talking about it. For him, how do you walk that back? The Facebook Live last night was strategic in the sense it's like, OK, get him out there, let's rip the Band-Aid out, you know? And he did acknowledge that they are concerned about the rise in cases. We should hear more this week on, you know, what they're hoping to do. And also, about new incentives to hopefully get more people vaccinated.

CLARE BONNYMAN: Yeah, as you said, that's a laundry list, right? There was this real optimistic feeling.

MICHELLE BELLEFONTAINE: Oh, yeah!

CLARE BONNYMAN: We can call it generous optimism at the beginning of the summer. And so, how does Kenny walk all of that back? Because it's not just cases, it's everything else. How does he grapple with that?

MICHELLE BELLEFONTAINE: Well, that's the thing. I mean, his... his biggest problem is that he's got as members of his caucus that are very anti-restriction, anti-mask. I'm not going to go as far as to say anti-vaccine because I don't think that's fair. I think the majority of the caucus has been vaccinated. But, you know, they're reflecting what they're hearing from their constituents. I mean, a lot of them, you know, they represent rural areas. Quite a few of them. People are not happy there.

CLARE BONNYMAN: Yeah, they've had a very different experience of COVID.

MICHELLE BELLEFONTAINE: Yes, they have. Exactly. Even though some of these... I mean, northern Alberta has got the worst infection rates in the province.

CLARE BONNYMAN: Yeah.

MICHELLE BELLEFOUNTIANE: There's a perception that maybe it's a big city problem. It's not a rural problem. But the problem with Kenney is he's notoriously reluctant to admit he's wrong. The last time he did, he was kind of forced to do it. You know, and now we're hearing, you know, there are people that are now blaming Kenney for the new mandate that came out this week that, you know, AHS, Alberta Health Services, is requiring all health care workers to be vaccinated. Kenney talked about it last night. He said, you know what, this is not a new thing. Alberta Health Services and the regional health boards before them that preceded Alberta Health Services, they've always required their workers to be, you know, vaccinated against infectious diseases. And COVID is no exception. COVID has become so divisive. And this is just yet another thing that Kenney is trying to defend. So, Clare, the question all we journalists are asking, and I mean, you know, I think a lot of Albertans are asking is, is the government going to bring in restrictions? Like, what is the breaking point for these guys? Like, perhaps we'll get some more answers later today. But otherwise, I mean, I don't know if, you know, with the federal election underway that Alberta can really afford to wait another three weeks to say something or do something. So here we are.

CLARE BONNYMAN: Here we are indeed.

[ music: violin plucking]

Social Media Habits

Guest: Brittney Le Blanc

CLARE BONNYMAN: As someone who has grown up using social media, I don't think I ever saw it becoming as important as it did this last year. 'Cause it wasn't just media, it was our whole social life. But joining the rest of us online has been businesses and organizations and, yes, politicians. And sometimes the results are interesting. To break down some of this, we've got Brittney Le Blanc, social media strategist, joining me. Hey, Brittney.

BRITTNEY LE BLANC: Hello. Thanks for having me.

CLARE BONNYMAN: So, first, a bit of an invasive question. Have your social media habits changed in COVID?

BRITTNEY LE BLANC: I think, yes, to a certain extent. I've always just been kind of addicted to social media, which helps for the role that I have.

CLARE BONNYMAN: [chuckling] Yes.

BRITTNEY LE BLANC: So, yes, a little bit. I definitely noticed I pulled back on some things. I went a little bit harder on some other areas of social media. And the way that I've communicated with friends has now become so very online.

CLARE BONNYMAN: Yeah.

BRITTNEY LE BLANC: And so that has definitely changed a bit. And I just... it's kind of shifted. But I've noticed a huge impact for a lot of other people.

CLARE BONNYMAN: Oh yeah, it's completely changed. And I want to kind of start looking at one big example from the summer of a local organization. It was the Edmonton Police Service and their TikTok account. And one video in particular earned them some criticism. You know which one I'm talking about, obviously. Can you describe what it was in case people didn't see it?

BRITTNEY LE BLANC: Absolutely. So really manifesting their best Stone Cold Steve Austin impression, a popular wrestler from years back. They were playing an audio of him where he would normally smash some beers and drink them and then go to kick some ass. And what happened was it was a police officer exiting a building, smashing together two cans of like Bubly water, and drinking some of them and throwing them to the ground and then hopping into a vehicle because apparently his daughter was about to go on a date and he was going to go and, like, beat up the other person. So that's kind of what the video looked like. There's a lot of feedback and a lot of stuff to unpack there in that video.

CLARE BONNYMAN: Yeah, as someone who works online, I mean, you are a social media strategist. What was your reaction to this video?

BRITTNEY LE BLANC: I mean, who thought it was a good idea? [both chuckle] Like, I do not know. The Edmonton Police Service, like very kindly said it missed the mark, but that is the understatement of the year. It... really, you have on the cusp of a whole year where we have spent talking about Black Lives Matter. We've been seeing a whole bunch of police protests happening around North America. The spotlight is on police violence. We had tons and tons of conversations at City Hall while people were calling in and talking about their experiences with EPS and talking about defunding the police. So you have all of this. The police have a huge image problem that is not something we're going to be able to solve overnight. And then they release a video that kind of celebrates all of those negative stereotypes that people have about the police. You know, it has some police violence in there. It talks… it, like, shows a little bit of abuse of power. It has outdated customs and ideals in there. You know, you've got misogynistic nature and toxic masculinity. There's a little bit of littering. There's a little bit of potential drinking and driving. Like, it is not a good look overall. And the fact that you would have to imagine this doesn't just get posted by one person. This is something that goes through multiple levels. And it went through multiple levels and still got posted. Somebody still didn't stop it and say, oooooooo, maybe we save this for the Christmas party. This is not something to post publicly. That was... that was a choice.

CLARE BONNYMAN: Yeah. And, I mean, I want to pull back a bit because this is one... it was a big miss.

BRITTNEY LE BLANC: Yes.

CLARE BONNYMAN: But it's hardly the only miss, right? EPS is not the only organization that's online, and making these kinds of mistakes is, honestly, I think that's the only thing you can call them. And the big ones do go viral in some way. But why do you think that social media is so hard for organizations to figure out?

BRITTNEY LE BLANC: I think one of the issues with it is, I think, in general, speaking as somebody who's been doing, like, social media and digital marketing for well over a decade and doing a lot of community building a lot prior to that, it's not as easy as just doing the same traditional marketing that you've always done. And a lot of companies don't want to pay for people who have the experience for it. They don't have the budget or the team to do it, or they just turn their phones over to a younger member of staff, just assuming that they would know how to do things.

CLARE BONNYMAN: Right.

BRITNEY LE BLANC: Well, that's not always how it works.

CLARE BONNYMAN: Yeah, that idea of that, like, young Millennial or, in this case, Gen Z are coming in, and it's like, oh, great, now you're in charge of Twitter.

BRITTNEY LE BLANC: Yeah. And so I've seen this tons of times where people have been even applying to jobs, and it's like, well, I have my own Facebook so I could do a corporate level Facebook. And it's not like that. The social media strategy involves a lot more crisis communications and, you know, demographics and looking at who your audience is and what you're doing. And so if you look at something like the police service, again, posting on TikTok, well, yes, they're probably getting served to other members of police services and people who are very pro-police. And so you see a lot of very positive feedback on that. But if you post it on someplace like Twitter, which has more of a local audience and is a little bit not like that because you're not just service... serving to the exact same bubble, people are going to be more critiquing of it. Whereas then, it gets posted on Facebook and Facebook loves it. So you have to know your audiences, and you need to know, like, what is working for what? But also, that one thing posted in one area of social media doesn't mean it stays there. I mean, the Internet is so fluid, it goes everywhere.

CLARE BONNYMAN: This all begs the question, though, of like, why are... I mean, why is the EPS on TikTok, right? What's the pressure actually like these days for different organizations, companies and groups to be on every platform like they are?

BRITTNEY LE BLANC: I mean, part of that is, I think, pressure from themselves. And they think, oh, well, you know, my nephew or my kid or somebody that I know really likes TikTok.

CLARE BONNYMAN: [chuckling] Right.

BRITTNEY LE BLANC: So we should be on it, too. Or they'll see a brand that is doing really well on TikTok. I mean, I think a lot of smaller brands do very well, especially ones that are selling things like art and pottery and jewellery and scrunchies and things like that. Like, stuff that is like a low-hanging fruit, easy to buy and easy to impulse purchase. I can't see larger organizations doing that. And if you want to do something like community engagement, there's absolutely a way to do that. But you have to know the audience, and you have to know what you want to do and what works best. And I don't know if TikTok is necessarily the best for this specific use case, but there's definitely opportunities for different businesses to get involved. But I think that it's always really tempting to be on every single social network and try to do them all really well. But you're not going to be able to do that unless you have a massive team.

CLARE BONNYMAN: Yeah, and there are kind of way more popular platforms than ever. We've had on a few of the big ones, especially, of course, TikTok, which we can't stop talking about because it's everywhere now. But could you maybe do a brief explainer on how some of the main ones are different? Maybe if they each had like a tagline or something. How would you describe them to people who are unfamiliar?

BRITTNEY LE BLANC: I'll start with Twitter. I think the easiest thing to know about Twitter is it is usually fairly short and sweet, 280 characters and one to four photos or one video. And it's usually a little bit more pithy, a little bit more shorter form content on Twitter. Although, people can do threads. Facebook is definitely an old, mainstream thing. I think everyone at this point knows what Facebook is. [Clare chuckles] I'm not to go too deep into it, but I will say that a lot of younger generations have left the platform or just never signed up. So it does tend to skew a little bit older. Then we have Instagram. Instagram is still a big hit for people across demographics, and it's very visual, a very visual platform where people are posting photos, they're posting video, they're doing stories that disappear within 24 hours. And so that one is a lot more of a visual platform. And then we have TikTok, which is, I think, one of the biggest of the main four. And TikTok definitely skews a little bit younger. But that is basically people post videos anywhere from 15 seconds up to three minutes potentially where they tell stories or show off things that they're doing or do fun dances. And it's sort of like Vine if you knew what Vine was except for longer.

CLARE BONNYMAN: Right. Vine was like those super... like, was it six seconds or something like that?

BRITTNEY LE BLANC: Vine was six seconds.

CLARE BONNYMAN: Crazy!

BRITTNEY LE BLANC: Yeah, RIP Vine. [Clare chuckles] I still miss it. [Clare laughs] And I mean, like, we have... there are so many other ones. There's Snapchat, there's YouTube, there's Reddit, there's a lot of other social media platforms out there. But I think if we're talking about the most mainstream ones, like that would definitely be the big four.

CLARE BONNYMAN: Yeah. And I mean, so the other side of this, which is kind of more focussed around an individual, but still not like a real human, which isn't to say they're not real. That sounds bad. But it's politics, right?

BRITTNEY LE BLANC: Yes.

CLARE BONNYMAN We're officially in a federal election campaign. And in a pandemic, this election is going to be fought online in a lot of ways. On the federal level, you know, we've already seen some things early in the race. What stood out to you so far?

BRITTNEY LE BLANC: I mean, something that was really starting to bother me with the federal election is I feel like we are falling down this hole of a thirst trap leadership, [Clare chuckles] where --

CLARE BONNYMAN: OK, you might have to explain what a thirst trap is, just in case. [chuckle]

BRITTNEY LE BLANC: That's fair. Yeah, a thirst trap is commonly posted, a photo or video that's posted to be appealing to --

CLARE BONNYMAN: To be attractive.

BRITTNEY LE BLANC: Members who are attracted to you. Yeah. And so, I mean, Justin Trudeau has long been, you know, made fun of and appreciated for his attractiveness to some people. And Jagmeet Singh, also a very attractive human that people are interested in. And Erin O'Toole is now joining that as well with his, like, glamorous photo shoot that makes him look like Mike Holmes, man of the people, very ripped. And so, it's... it's very interesting because I feel like the big three party leaders are all kind of competing for that weird thirst trap view. And I don't want that. [chuckling] I would like more substantial content. But it's been... it's been very interesting. And it's really... it's interesting to look at and think about. Because if it was, you know, three female leaders of the political parties, I don't think it would play out the same way.

CLARE BONNYMAN: Yeah, it is interesting, right? Just to see the different ways that... I mean, you're saying you want more information. A lot of these social media things are kind of short, sweet and pithy. So we don't get into the meat that you kind of want and need when you're walking into an election. But what do you think of the role that social media plays in politics in Canada?

BRITTNEY LE BLANC: I think it is very dangerous, but also very appealing because it's something that, to your point, is pithy and gets points across really well. So done well, social media can really inform people, really change minds, really educate people on important issues. Political memes, on the other hand, are sort of like the new editorial cartoon. But rather than being limited to, you know, a few a day from a handful of people, the power is now in many hands. And so now we have all these memes that can also be a form of propaganda. And so those memes can be sent around in ways that could be toxic. They could be misinformed. And therefore, lead people down the wrong path. I mean, we have seen already that some of the meme groups and toxic groups do radicalize our grandparents and our parents on Facebook, which is a really scary thing to think about. Because then it's hard to get them to trust the actual truth when we were talking to scientists about climate change or having unbiased journalists like the CBC sharing stories. They don't trust it as much anymore because they instead turn to these other groups. It's... it always reminds me of the house hippo commercials that Millennials know and talk about all the time.

CLARE BONNYMAN: [chuckling] Yes.

BRITTNEY LE BLANC: Where there was a hippo that walked on screen. It looked like it belonged in your house, and it made its bed out of lint, and it ate potato chips and peanut butter. And it was so cute. But at the end of it, it was the Concerned Children's Advertisers saying don't believe everything that you see on TV. It's not real. And we almost need that again, but for our parents to know, like, hey, everything you see on Facebook and social media isn't necessarily true.

CLARE BONNYMAN: Right.

BRITTNEY LE BLANC: And I am unfairly picking on older generations. But it does happen across generations.

CLARE BONNYMAN: I mean, regardless of age, how can real folks like... like you and me as well, even just engage with politics online when we don't necessarily know what's real and what's a meme and what's a thirst trap, in some cases?

BRITTNEY LE BLANC: Absolutely. Well, sometimes it's real and it's a thirst trap. It's very confusing.

CLARE BONNYMAN: [chuckling] True! That's right. It's like a venn diagram.

BRITTNEY LE BLANC: [chuckling] Yeah. It's... I think that the thing to keep in mind is just because you see it on Twitter or Facebook or something does not necessarily make it... mean it's true. If you think it is from a reputable news source, maybe go see if you can double sourced it from an actual like a CBC or something else like that. Like, find an actual traditional news organization that might be able to double source that you can. I mean, reporters these days are so easily accessible on social media. So if you aren't trolling them all the time and you are kind to them, you can occasionally ask, hey, I heard this thing. Is it true? I did that a little while ago when I saw a TikTok about the weather moving in and what percentage of rain means. And I was like, this seems weird, but is this correct? And I got a response right away. That was no. It's a hoax. And this is just misinformation being posted around.

CLARE BONNYMAN: Yeah.

BRITTNEY LE BLANC: But you have to kind of do those double-checking... double-checking of things. And it's not as easy as just Googling it because there are so many false websites that are trying to spread misinformation, especially during elections.

CLARE BONNYMAN: Absolutely. Now, turning from the audience to the creator side of things, what do you think is the most important thing that politicians and organizations can keep in mind as they navigate social media, especially when there's so many really big, important conversations and things happening online right now?

BRITTNEY LE BLANC: I think something that is undervalued by a lot of politicians online is providing factual information to people. Because I think we've seen time and time again that if you post factual information, which we see a lot around COVID numbers here in Alberta being posted, people will talk about it, and they will share that information, and they will try to learn more about that. But oftentimes, we kind of get stuck in this. Oh, here's another meme about something the other guy said. And I don't necessarily need to see that. I don't need to see your attack ads as much as I would like to know, you know, how do you feel about pharmacare? What are we going to do about Indigenous issues? What are we going to do about climate change? Like that's the kind of stuff I actually want to know about. And do you have statistics on that? Are you going to share things? So I think that's an important thing to know. I think also they have to understand what audience that they're trying to reach. And I think they have to ask themselves, does this do what it needs to do? And I think it's important that they have people within their organizations that are asking those questions. Because otherwise, you get things like the magazine and cover of that report that Erin O'Toole sent out that you have Conservatives calling embarrassing, and they didn't know about it. And you don't want your party to kind of cringe at the things that you're producing. So I think it's important to kind of get more feedback on the things that you're producing and putting out there. And you want to make sure that it's relevant to people.

CLARE BONNYMAN: Yeah. So more facts, less flexed muscles?

BRITTNEY LE BLANC: Oh, absolutely! [Clare chuckles] And when all else fails, come up with something that people will remember. I mean, I'm personally disappointed that they're not going with "its O'tool time" as the Conservative, like, tagline. [Clare laughs] Tell me that's not a good tagline. You'd remember it.

CLARE BONNYMAN: I'll never forget it. Now that you said it.

BRITTNEY LE BLANC: Yeah. If they use it now, they have to pay me money. So --

CLARE BONNYMAN: We will hold them to that.

BRITTNEY LE BLANC: Copyright... copyright Britney. Thank you. [Clare laughs]

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CLARE BONNYMAN: “The Loop” is a weekly podcast from CBC Edmonton. And our team is: Leslie Goldstone, Chris Martin, Krystina Silva, and James Evans. Our theme music is “Change Your Mind” by Edmonton musician Jom Comyn. And I'm Claire Bonnyman. Thank you as always for listening. And there’s always so much more to know. So you can get into “The Loop”. We drop an episode every Friday. And let us know what you think. You can leave us a rating or a review wherever you download the show. If you want to send us an email: theloop@cbc.ca is the place to do it, or on social media. Search for the hashtag: #theloopcbc, or you can find me: @namynnob. And, of course, follow the show on “CBC Listen” or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Transcript: The Loop September 3

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