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The Current Transcript for September 10, 2021

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: I had the feeling that probably I would come back and that was heartbreaking, breaking my heart was into pieces and pieces of my heart are still in Afghanistan.

VOICE 2: I wanted to do my Phd to make a change in the society, but in a matter of few, how everything just changed.

VOICE 3: Equal rights for women and girls. Freedom of speech, freedom of movement, access to education, access to work. If you're not pressurising the right path to be taken, no one will gave you that right.

MATT GALLOWAY: Those are the voices of three Afghan women. Their worlds have been turned upside down in the past few weeks. They're still trying to reconcile the country they love and call home with the picture the Taliban is painting of Afghanistan's future. This morning, on the eve of the 20th anniversary of 9/11 and the war in Afghanistan that followed, we speak with Afghans stuck inside the country and in exile abroad about the future of their homeland, Afghanistan, in the shadow of the Taliban in 30 minutes. But with just a week and a half to go in this country's election, we begin with the final pitch from the leaders. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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Political veterans dissect the federal election debate

Guests: Lisa Raitt, Catherine McKenna, Libby Davis

MG: Ten days until voting day, the advance polls open today and last night, Canadians got to watch the leaders of the five main parties in the only English language debate of this campaign. Our panel of political veterans was watching as well. Lisa Raitt served as the conservative member for Milton and Halton held several cabinet positions under Prime Minister Stephen Harper and was the party's deputy leader. Libby Davies is the former member for Vancouver East. She was there for 18 years, served as the NDP House leader from 2003 through 2011. And for the Liberals, Catherine McKenna served as Prime Minister Justin Trudeau in Prime Minister Justin Trudeau his cabinet since 2015. But she is not seeking re-election. They all join us now. Good morning to you all.

LIBBY DAVIS: Morning.

CATHERINE MCKENNA: Good morning.

LISA RAITT: Morning.

MG: Catherine McKenna. We are 27 days into this election. Justin Trudeau is still getting hammered on the question of why this election is happening at all. Do you think the Liberals underestimated how much calling an election now in the midst of a pandemic would hurt them politically?

LIBBY DAVIS: Well, look, I mean, the end of this year, and certainly some folks are bringing that up, but at the end of the day, I mean, elections do have consequences. And I think we're now, you know, we're full game on. And I think that the key now is actually focussing on, you know, what's going to happen at the end of this.

MG: But has he been able to answer the question as to why why we're having this election at all?

LIBBY DAVIS: Well, I mean, I think the explanation that he's given is that, you know, it's been a tough year and a half for folks. We have had to do a lot that we did not have a mandate for clear making massive investments to support Canadians through the pandemic. And we've got to continue. And I think that it has been becoming more clear to folks that one of the keys to getting the heck out of this pandemic is making sure people are vaccinated. And there's a clear divide there. But there are those who we don't even know how many how many of us get them. So even vaccinated, it sounds like below 90 percent, which we know we need to get 90 percent of Canadians vaccinated to get out of this. And then he's also said, you know, he's made the case and I really believe this, that we have major things we have to deal with and none more important than climate change. And that is all at risk. I mean, hopefully we get into this. I think the prime minister was able to make that case last night. But, you know, we have to really make some we need to really be very aggressive on climate change. And I think these are issues for Canadians, the centre right. Well, we want to lose the progress we're making with provinces on child care. So, look, I think Canadians will have to decide. And I was like, oh, my goodness, you know, decisions have consequences, but Canadians are always right. So they will make up their minds in the ballot box. But I think they need to understand the clear choice.

MG: We will get into the climate change issue in a moment. But, Lisa, to that point, Justin Trudeau has been saying that he believes a conservative government would mean big changes to climate change. Yes, but also gun control, child care, the anti vaccine movement as well. Do you think Erin O'Toole did enough last night to assuage any lingering doubts that centrist or maybe conservative curious voters might have?

CATHERINE MCKENNA: Yeah, I do I think he showed himself to be statesman, he was calm, he didn't take the bait. Just going back to the question, I've been on a campaign where the leader was dogged by the same question I felt every single day during our entire process. And I can say I think pretty clearly that the test is whether or not you can get rid of that question coming up. And here we are. As you pointed out, we're still getting that question as the number one question to Mr. Trudeau. Why did you call the election? So until they put that to bed and give a clear answer, that's going to be with them for the entire campaign. And it's just a function of not putting it across the plate. How in a clear way why exactly we are there. And it's unfortunate that it it seems to be the one thing that continues to follow them on on the campaign, but they have to answer it before they can move on past it. Other than that, you're going to have to you're going to have to try to find other ways to communicate.

MG: So you don't think that the shots that were taken at or tool around changes to and we'll get into climate changes in just a moment. But but gun control, child care, concerns around vaccinations, those you don't think landed.

CATHERINE MCKENNA: Those are policy contrasts. I didn't take the nice shots and Aaron pointed out that he has a plan. You heard it many times last night. He has a plan. This is what's in the plan. This is what I say I'm going to do. And for better. For worse, that's what people are going to be relying upon when they when they go to the polls. It's just very clear. The notion of a hidden agenda or the notion that it's scary did not land, did not land at all.

MG: Libby Davies, it's been pretty tight in the polls if you follow those polls between the liberals and the conservatives that, as you know, can be a challenge for the NDP to Jadmeet Singh do enough last night to convince NDP or Liberal swing voters that they need to stick with him, that that they don't need to find themselves caught in the strategic dilemma that those voters have found themselves in in elections past.

LIBBY DAVIS: Well, I think Jadmeet Singh came into the debate last night and did what he needed to do, which was to speak directly and very straightforwardly to Canadians about what the NDP has done and wants to do in Canada's parliament. I think he did that in a very forthright manner. He helped Mr. Trudeau to account. He showed how Mr. O'Toole and Mr. Trudeau have really, on many questions, sort of work together, not in the interests of Canadians. So I think he presented a very clear choice for Canadians with the NDP. And, you know, the NDP vote has been holding steady. It's going to be a very interesting campaign. And I would certainly agree with Lisa, as we talked about the last time we gathered, you know, there's still this huge question about why we're in this election, because the parliament was actually working fairly well and the NDP were playing a very critical role and in keeping Mr. Trudeau to the commitments that he made and pushing him further. So I think people saw that last night as well with Jadmeet Singh. He's you know, he's very straightforward in his approach. He speaks from his own experience. He's very direct about what we stand for and what the plan is and what we can deliver. And I think what he's saying is the more NDP MPs we can put in the House of Commons, the better parliament will have.

MG: You don't worry that- I mean, again, this goes back to the question and the earlier question than the issue that the Catherine McKenna raised that in a tight race, people will face choices and that, as we've seen in past, some of that NDP support might soften if the choice is made between a conservative and a Liberal government.

LIBBY DAVIS: Yeah, I guess you're referring to what you know, we commonly called strategic voting, but, you know, I've got to tell you that here in B.C., the NDP is actually slightly ahead in the polls. So if people are voting strategically for something to stop conservatives, it would actually be the NDP candidates that they're voting for. So the strategic voting thing is can be very overplayed and it can be very misunderstood. And I think at the end of the day, people need to vote for what they believe and they need to vote for what they think is best in their community. And and I think in here in B.C., yes, it is very tight. There's a lot of very critical freeway races going on. So I think the NDP is in a very, very strong position to deliver not just here, but also across the country and even including in Toronto, where it's, you know, strategic voting and tight races have always been the case. So I feel pretty optimistic that Jadmeet Singh is not only holding his own, but he's really speaking very strongly. And Canadians are hearing him. You know, he's the most liked leader. I think he's the most believable leader. And he's really shown the poor record of delivering that Mr. Trudeau has. But I talked a lot. But he doesn't deliver. And that's a problem, you know, and then he called an election and a pandemic. That's a problem. And I think Canadians are mulling that over and it's going to be a factor on Election Day.

MG: Catherine McKenna, did Justin Trudeau have enough time to talk last night? There's been a lot of criticism, particularly on social media, around the format of last night's debate. Just very briefly, do you think that the leaders had had enough time to make their points in this?

CATHERINE MCKENNA: I actually really think that probably a lot of Canadians [unintelligible].

MG: Leyla Fernandez is a great story.

CATHERINE MCKENNA: We can probably all agree. Maybe we may come from different [unintelligible], but we probably all agree on this panel that that format was not an amazing format. I'm not entirely sure, you know, how we got there. I mean, the point is to really hear these are folks who well, I mean, two of them really are the ones that are most likely to be prime minister. And you really need to hear these exchanges. But it did not foster that public to the extent that there was an ability to talk about your policies. I think that there were some really important points that were made there. And Canadians have to feel positive about, you know, their votes. I believe that to Libby Davies point. But look, I think on climate, what is really important is we are the only party who has a credible plan. And of course, you know, I believe that I worked my butt off to help get a plan. But, you know, the prime minister was able to actually engage, including with Jagmeet Singh, who have a slogan, usually have a plan. And people talk about the target. The target is 2030. We have a plan to exceed our target. We've been doing things like phasing out coal, putting a price on pollution and cancelling Northern Gateway. We've got a whole bunch of things electric, all electric vehicles by 2035. So he was able to make those points. I think also on some care that our plan will create 250,000 spaces in which we will create zero. And those are places that Canadians will have to evaluate at the ballot box.

MG: Let me let me just let me go back to the climate issue, because this is one where many of the parties did take aim at your plan that you were involved in helping to create, but also what the leader has done to try to defend that plan. Take a listen to this exchange. We have not missed any of our targets. We are on track to exceeding our targets and it's important each year. In fact, let's talk you're talking about the future. Let's talk about right now. You had six years. Why did you let me finish? Let me finish it. You've got the worst track record in all the G7 after six years. You believe, Catherine McKenna, that the Liberal leader did enough to defend his government's record, which is your record as the former environment minister?

CATHERINE MCKENNA: Well, I mean, it's very hard on these debates, but I mean, what what the prime minister was trying to say, oh, OK, let's talk about what we did. We put a price on pollution that was really hard, by the way, and we will lose that because that is not the conservative plan. We phased out coal. That is also really hard to do. We're going to all electric vehicles by 2035. We are tackling methane. I mean, we are retrofitting buildings. Those are serious

MG: things. And yet the point was the point was made over and over again that targets have been missed. And I guess the question, Lisa, rates that comes up when it comes to the conservatives is Erin O'Toole says that he will have a different target.

CATHERINE MCKENNA: Well, can I just be very clear to everyone who's listening? You can not go to the international climate talks and be credible. Going back on our target. We have a new target. We cannot go back to. The Paris agreement does not allow that I. Came in and I have my purse and we were joke, and that is what is at stake here. We have a credible plan and really the other parties don't. And the NDP, I know we care about climate, but you can't just say you're the target. You actually have to do the work. And it's very hard. Lisa raised and.

MG: Well, let me go to Lisa Raitt, did Erin O'Toole make enough of a case for his party's approach? The other leaders are saying that essentially he's Stephen Harper 2.0 on climate change.

LISA RAITT: So I think how Aaron started off last night was the most appropriate way, which is the acknowledgement that in the past we have not come to the table as a conservative party with with a credible climate plan. He put his plan out in April. He brought people through the history and he said, and here's what it is, and we believe it's going to work and we're going to hit these targets. What is interesting, though, is you have to question whether or not Canadians are going to believe the various leaders on their promises around climate. And I completely understand Katherine's passion around ensuring that the legacy that she put in place does get to be actioned upon. I fully get it. The question for Canadians, though, is, are you going to believe the Conservatives, the Liberals, the NDP on what? That they're going to do, what they say they're going to do for a Canadian? They may think that these plans are pretty close to one another because it gets into the weeds pretty quickly. But the question is whether or not they're going to do it. And I thought Jadmeet Singh had a devastating knock out on the prime minister last night when he said, you know, it's a vote now. It's not about the future.

MG: Do you think, though, that the urgency is there that would match this issue? Lisa?

LISA RAITT: The urgency is the timeline being set internationally, and one of the things Aaron did talk about last night is working with friends and you'd have to got to getting into the weeds. You got to remember that the crop this year is going to be in England. It's in Glasgow and is very clear that he would want to work with allies and friends like England. So I expect there would be urgency.

LISA RAITT: He will have new friends and including he won't have the UK as a friend when he backtracks on our target. Libby Davies for details. Details, by the way, a cornerstone is not detailed. A plan, it is burning and [unintelligible] who wants to burn faster

MG: Well, let me get to the burning. Libby Davies is in British Columbia. There have been wildfires that have ripped through the province and people I was just there. People are very attuned to the issue of climate change in British Columbia, but abroad. How much impact do you think that exchange that we just heard and what we're hearing right now is going to have on voters who are still trying to make up their minds?

LISA RAITT: Oh, I think it's going to be huge, Matt. I've been talking to candidates and campaigns across B.C. and the devastation of the smoke and the fires. People losing their homes, worried about their future has been just enormous. And you know what? I would agree with Catherine. She says you have to do the work. But to me, that's precisely the point. And that's Mr. Trudeau's huge vulnerability, refundability because they haven't done the work. Canada is the only G7 where greenhouse gas emissions have actually increased since the Paris agreement. You know, we've lost six years. We're not going to get them back. The oil and gas subsidies are higher under Mr. Trudeau than they were under Mr. Harper. So, yes, it is about getting the work done. And I think this is where Mr. Trudeau, it really falls short, right? He talks a good line. He puts the stuff out there, especially in the campaign. But the question that I think people are mulling over, certainly in B.C., but my guess is across the country is, does this guy actually deliver what he says, whether it's climate emergency, whether it's on childcare, certainly not on Obamacare. There's not a dime in their platform on that. So I think, you know what the subtext a lot of this is about credibility. It is about leadership, and it's about who can you believe and who's going to deliver. So I guess I want to come back to the point that, yes, some plans are out there, but we have to look at the record and moving forward, we do need to meet our international obligations and targets. So we have to actually do better. And I think the NDP does have an ambitious plan. And, you know, I actually appreciate that. The point that Miss Paul made last night, which was that the parties actually have to work together on this right at such a huge issue that collaboration and cooperation is really, really important.

MG: Lisa, let me ask you very briefly about enemy Paul. She said she had to crawl across broken glass just to get to the stage. What did you make of her performance last night, given everything that she's gone, given everything she's gone through?

LISA RAITT: I thought it was fantastic. I was worried that my expectations for her doing well were were not going to be met. They were met. They were matched. They were exceeded. She knew her brief. I was so proud to watch her take on all of those very experienced leaders and reduce them to very quickly. It's got them in their tracks. I thought it was brilliant.

MG: Ten days left. And I'm going to ask the three of you the same question. We have two and a half minutes left. We don't want to give anyone five seconds to answer the question. Lisa Raitt, what will you be watching for in the last ten days of this race?

LISA RAITT: Everybody's going to be seeing copious amounts of negative advertising coming at them through social media, through the airwaves, through the radio waves. That's what's going to be happening. And the object is to have the parties paint their opponent in the least favourable light possible in order to shake the confidence of the people who are going to be placing their votes with them and get the vote out. That's it.

MG: Is the story anywhere near Seattle, do you think?

LISA RAITT: No, I don't think so, I don't think- I don't. I think there's a lot of churn. I also believe, though, that there's not a lot of undecided out there. So we're not battling for for hearts and minds were battling for people to get off the couch and go and vote. And that's why the air war is going to be important.

MG: Catherine McKenna, briefly from you, what are you expecting? What are you looking for in the next 10 days?

CATHERINE MCKENNA: Well, I mean, I think it's really important that the people do understand the consequences and progressives who care about child care. Do you want 250000 more child care spaces or do you not? Do you want a serious climate plan? And just to respond, experts have given our plan and a and these are independent experts. If you care about climate, you should go find out they gave an F to the NDP because there's no plan. So I think, like, look, I think we have to go out and and be very clear about what is going on. And I think Guns is an example because there is a hidden agenda. There is a deal with the gun lobby, with Erin O'Toole, if you want more guns on the streets. And I think that's where the contrast is important. And I think honestly, I think it's just what are the policies and what kind of candidate you want in the future.

MG: Libby Davies, last minute to you. What are you going to be watching for in the next 10 days?

LIBBY DAVIS: Well, I would just say people need to be suspect about what experts you go to, because I think that expert who gave the liberals in the 80s, you know, you could characterise the person as the fossil fuel apologist. So be careful of the Maori and look at Marto. I think, you know, in terms of the closing day of days of the election, Matt, I think what I'm worried about is, you know, people disengaging, particularly young people. And I think it's really important that that we encourage people to engage and to go out and vote and to look at the record, not just to talk, but to look at what happened in the last parliament to figure out who is it, who's really going to be on your side, who's going to be working for you. And I hope that people will come to a choice that that Mr. Singh is someone who's authentic, he's real. He has lived experience that I think resonates with a lot of people. And he's going to deliver. Right. That's what he's about. It's not about a power grab that Mr. Trudeau's interested in. It's about making a parliament work in the best public interest of Canadians on all of these questions, as we've debated today. So I hope that's what people will think about in the coming days.

MG: I hope you'll all come back when it's over and done with. In the meantime, thank you for being here this morning after a late night watching the debate.

LIBBY DAVIS: Thanks for that talking to you guys.

MG: Lisa Raitt, conservative member for Halton, Hamilton, in years past held several cabinet positions under Prime Minister Stephen Harper. Libby Davies, a former member of Vancouver East for 18 years, served as the NDP House leader from 2003 through 2011, and Catherine McKenna was a Liberal MP for Ottawa. Senators served as Prime Minister Justin Trudeau Cabinet in the Cabinet since 2015, not running for re-election. Your CBC News is next. And then Afghanistan in the shadow of the Taliban. We will talk about what life is like in that country now and in years ahead. I'm Matt Galloway you're listening to The Current.

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Afghanistan, in the Shadow of the Taliban: Divided families, and concerns over human rights

Guests: Fawzia Koofi, Anna, Maria, Dad, Najla Ayoubi

MG: Hello, I'm Matt Galloway, and you're listening to The Current. For the next hour, we are going to hear from Afghans, some who have fled the country, others who are still there, all of them are facing a stark new reality. After 20 years of American presence, the lives lost, the social change. Afghanistan is again, as it was when the Americans went in under control of the Taliban 20 years ago. Tomorrow, two planes flew into the World Trade Centre in New York City. Two other planes had different targets.

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NEWSCASTER 1: This is a special broadcast from CBC National Radio News. I'm Judy Maveron. And I'm Sheila Rogers. The United States appears to be under terrorist attacks on several fronts. Two planes have crashed into the upper floors of the both the World Trade Centre towers in New York.

NEWSCASTER 2: On the second day of U.S. airstrikes, Canadians learnt what this country's military role will be in the war against terrorism. Defence Minister Art Eggleton says Canada will send ships and planes to support both the military and humanitarian efforts in Afghanistan.

NEWSCASTER 3: Taking the oath of office today after an election riddled with fraud. President Karzai defended his government, calling corruption a dangerous enemy that we will tackle seriously.

NEWSCASTER 4: Today is a date that will figure prominently in Canadian history. March 12, 2014, the day Canada's mission in Afghanistan officially came to an end.

NEWSCASTER 5: But all according to the Constitution. We declared Mr. Ashraf Ghani as the president elect of the government of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan.

NEWSCASTER 6: I'm dedicating this victory of the people to the people and as the first servants with our united team, the last American troops cleared out of Bagram Air Base without celebrations or fanfare.

JOURNALSIT: Are you worried that the Afghan government might fall?

VOICE 1: I think they have the capacity to be able to sustain the government.

NEWSCASTER 7: And the Taliban is in control of Afghanistan. The country's president has fled, and this took the US by surprise.

VOICE 2: I did not, nor did anyone else see a collapse of an army that size in 11 days.

MG: Fawzia Koofi also never expected her country to fall so quickly to the Taliban. She put her life on the line to advocate for women's rights. In 2010, the Taliban attacked her convoy after she became Afghanistan's first female deputy speaker of parliament. Then last August, she was targeted again, shot in a suspected assassination attempt in Kabul. Weeks later, Miss Koofi faced the Taliban on her own terms. This as part of a team tasked with negotiating a peace agreement in her country. Now she has been forced to flee to Qatar. She escaped Afghanistan last week after being put under house arrest by the Taliban. Fawzia Koofi, hello.

FAWZIA KOOFI: Hello. Hi.

MG: How did it feel to leave Afghanistan?

FAWZIA KOOFI: I have happened to come abroad quite often for official business. But the first time that I had the feeling that probably I won't come back and that was heart breaking, my heart was into pieces and pieces of my heart are still in Afghanistan for the love I had for that country and for the blood and energy that I have invested. But I am sure that I will return soon.

MG: Why did you feel that you had to leave?

FAWZIA KOOFI: I was under a tremendous security challenge, but that was not the reason. The reason I actually left was because I thought I'm not anymore making a difference from home. I couldn't tolerate to see the situation evolve in a way that people had little power. People were terrified. I wanted to actually spend some time to raise some international awareness about what's happening on the ground and hopefully be able to return.

MG: Tell me more about that. Why didn't you feel that you could make a difference on the ground at home?

FAWZIA KOOFI: I was at home for two weeks each time I wanted to get out. They were making excuses. Of course, their definition of their security at my gate was a different justification. They were telling me that it's for my security because there are 30000 criminals released from prison. But that is a justification that I don't believe. And secondly, I could see a lot of women that lost their jobs. Women were stopped from going to school. They issued the decree that only girls up to grade six, can go to school. A woman until further notice can stay at home, although they were saying that woman can go to work. But when I send my own family members who are working with the government institutions to their jobs, they were stopped at the gates of their offices. They were not allowed to get in. You know, I wanted to give that awareness to the world and ask them and appeal to them to act in terms of solidarity and support for people of Afghanistan. Now, the question you probably have will be that the world has supported for very long. It's true. We are very grateful for the support of the international community, but they have always supported in the way they wanted their own definition of Afghan interest, which proved to be wrong. They came to Afghanistan without the people of Afghanistan. Ask them, they left without we ask them to leave. They didn't care about what happened to the people of Afghanistan. So now I think my appeal would be to pressurise the Taliban for an inclusive, representative government. You have just seen they announced the cabinet, no woman, all religious scholars, a country that has transformed so much. And we have been sitting watching. Everyday on the streets, the new generation, the women are actually demonstrating, protesting, asking for their rights is an indication of the transformative generation. Those people will not be accepting the fact that they will be ruled by religious scholars who actually do not have any knowledge of governance. And, you know, I'm here to make that awareness and then and then go back, hopefully, to join my people who are protesting and making civic awareness.

MG: You were part of the peace talks with the Taliban and you've said that delaying the exit in particular of American forces by a month would have made a difference in those peace talks. Why is that?

FAWZIA KOOFI: Yeah, I mean, we were putting all our efforts to come to a political settlement in a way that our institutions are preserved and protected. A military solution was not a solution. So what we wanted was actually a political settlement that is representative and to the desire of people of Afghanistan, people see a smooth transfer of power. However, I think after the announcement of the American withdrawal, the Taliban were thinking that why should they actually put their energy on the negotiation? They were expediting their energy in the battlefield. And that's why they took over militarily many places in a situation where the morale of the Afghan security forces were extremely low. There was a lack of leadership. Corruption on the previous president was, of course, part of all of these problems. So I think if there was a delay in the state, if the world could use its political leverage for a political settlement, the result would have been so different.

MG: As you mentioned, international forces arrived without acknowledging the wishes of the people of Afghanistan. They left suddenly without acknowledging the wishes of the people of Afghanistan. What is the legacy of the last 20 years, do you think?

FAWZIA KOOFI: The legacy is a transformed nation, a nation that is aware of the rights, a nation that know that without their participation and a meaningful participation in an accountable government that listens to them, that they have a say no political system will actually survive? Yes, in the past 20 years, elections were full of problems of rigging in Afghanistan, but there is still no alternative to that. A nation that is enabled and empowered nation. That is the legacy. But on the other hand, the world actually, especially the United States, unfortunately, support the corrupt politicians, choose a president on the people's behalf. Remember, President Karzai was never elected. Both times he actually came to power through a political kind of agreement. So I think those mistakes should have been avoided. It was, I think, imperative to focus on building the institutions and empowering the nation more and more. And we see the result now. The nation is in power. They will stand against oppression.

MG: What does that empowered nation, what do members of that empowered nation want now?

FAWZIA KOOFI: That empowered nation wants a life with dignity and respect, a future where they could have a state, a government that is chosen by them, that is elected by them and accountable for them. And if we have a government that runs based on election, based on what the people of Afghanistan, one, trust me, the issue of gender gap, gender inequality and limiting the freedom and equality. All of this will be resolved over time because whoever runs, they need the vote of everyone in the society. They need the vote of man and woman. And if they try to pursue their oppressive policies, that woman will stand against them as they do now. So therefore, I think still important that the world stands with the people of Afghanistan and their needs and their wishes and listen to them.

MG: You have two daughters who grew up in a country where women and girls gained rights and independence and freedom over those last 20 years. What do you see as the future for them in Afghanistan?

FAWZIA KOOFI: The future I see at this stage probably will not be an inspiring statement because I'm so disappointed with what has happened. But the future I will continue to fight for is that the agenda should not be a means to prevent them from who they want to be for their country, for themselves, for their family, for their community.

MG: And is that possible in years to come?

FAWZIA KOOFI: That's what we hope and what we believe and we work for. Not easy, I understand, costs a lot of lives, as we have seen in the past with years. But we will continue to struggle for that.

MG: You mentioned the new Taliban interim government, no women as of yet. They've appointed the co-founder of the Taliban and others who have long ties with the Taliban. This is a time in which the Taliban has said that it's different than the Taliban have past that. The spokesperson says they will respect women's rights within Islamic law, that women would be welcome in the government at some point in time. Do you believe the Taliban when it says that?

FAWZIA KOOFI: Well, they actually have to prove it. They have to prove that they believe in what they say their definition of exclusivity was within the Taliban movement. People who have served for long and from different factions, they will get a job. The Taliban need to adopt themselves based on new Afghanistan. If they don't, they will not face easy times ahead of them.

MG: You're already seeing, as you mentioned, protests on the streets and the Taliban have responded with force. What does that tell you about the appetite, particularly of women in the country, to what the Taliban has already begun to enact?

FAWZIA KOOFI: The women are paying the highest in all of this if it is war or if it's a political settlement or if it's military takeover. The women are the main victim, unfortunately, of all of this. They have been targeted. Opportunities have been taken away from them. My belief is they will not put their demands aside. They will continue to ask for their legitimate rights, for participation and not participation as a second class citizen. The Taliban interpretation of Islamic values is very extreme. It's in contradiction with Islamic principles, actually, because from the beginning of Islam, women were in different layers of economic, social and political part of it. So they are actually misinterpreting principles of Islam. They are just empowered in their own interest, which is sad.

MG: What do you want from the global community, from countries like Canada?

FAWZIA KOOFI: I think Canada has been the leading country in promoting equality and feminist foreign policy and a global citizen they have been promoting. And you are a very diverse society. My expectation is that they stand with the people of Afghanistan, that they do not give a blank check to Taliban. I know that the Canadians, they have been extremely a trustworthy partner. I think they have to continue to stand with the people of Afghanistan in terms of supporting them with humanitarian projects. But in terms of giving Taliban international legitimacy, they have to really have stronger, stronger benchmarks as opposed to other countries in order to give Taliban that legitimacy.

MG: What would those benchmarks be? Again, there's great controversy as to whether a government like a Canadian government would recognise the Taliban as a legitimate government or not.

FAWZIA KOOFI: They should not.

MG: They should not.

FAWZIA KOOFI: I think they should not until those benchmarks are met. The benchmarks are inclusive in terms of minorities, religious minorities. Look at the government. There is no religious minority. There is no woman. There is no technocrat. So it's like government that I grew for 20 years only use violence. Those people are now ruling, to be honest, from my experience, most of them do not actually know what how to govern. They don't have an experience of government. So what would happen to the country? So I think my home from Canada would be that a government that is representative on the principles of democracy, people voting one individual, one vote, woman included, minorities included, accountable to the people, the two pillars of government functioning, those things that we actually have in Constitution already, some of the you know, the Constitution needs to be amended for good, but the return, immediate return of constitutional order is something we want.

MG: And is that something you see as as a possibility with international pressure?

FAWZIA KOOFI: I think I think so, because Taliban are desperate for international legitimacy. How do they govern if they don't have standing? I think this is the leverage. The world should not give it easily.

MG: In the face of what you have been up against and the threats, but also the real effects of the violence directed towards you. What is it that keeps you going?

FAWZIA KOOFI: The love to my country and the need of my people? Honestly, I continue to get very emotional. I was coming to Vienna to participate in a conference on the way there was an Afghan in the plane with me travelling from some other country from his vacation. He has not been in Afghanistan for twenty years. But the moment he saw me, he got so emotional about what has happened to his country. Everyone in Afghanistan right now is traumatised by what has happened to their country. We deserve a better life. We deserve a life with respect and prosperity. We deserve to live in peace and harmony. When is that right time? The people of Afghanistan deserve a better life than just guns and weapons like them. We have to make that time for us.

MG: Fawzia Koofi, I'm grateful to have the chance to speak with you. I hope that you are able to return home soon, and I wish you health and stay safe. Thank you very much.

FAWZIA KOOFI: Thank you.

MG: Fawzia Koofi is an Afghan politician and women's rights activist. She was part of the Afghan government's negotiation team which engaged in peace talks with the Taliban. For Afghans abroad, the events in their home country have been shocking and painful, especially if they still have family there. I'm about to speak to one family divided by borders, one woman here in Canada. We're calling her Anna. And a sister who are calling Mariam is in Afghanistan. Anna and Mariam's father is also in Afghanistan. He's in hiding because years ago he helped imprisoned Taliban members. Who've now been released and they're looking for him. We aren't using the family members real names because there is a real threat to their lives. They all join us now. Hello to you all.

ANNA: Hi, Matt. Thanks for having us.

MG: Thank you for being with us. I really appreciate it. Anna, tell me, what was going through your mind when you heard that the Taliban had taken control of Afghanistan and the capital city?

ANNA: First of all, I was in disbelief. I couldn't believe my eyes. I was crying. I was calling back home. I was in shock. And I was very stressed. And it was nerve wracking seeing Kabul collapsing.

MG: How frightened were you for your family? I mean, you're on the other side of the world watching this unfold here in Canada. How frightened were you?

ANNA: I was scared to death, especially for my dad and my brother, because I know what they do and I know what Taliban are capable of.

MG: What were those phone calls like back home?

ANNA: I couldn't stop crying. And I said, is everything OK? What happened? Where are you guys? And my mom assured that my dad is home, my sister is home and my brother is also home. I said, just pass the phone to that. I just want to speak with him. I want to hear his voice.

MG: What did it mean to hear his voice?

ANNA: I felt a little relieved. I'd be assured that he's fine, he's home. Nothing has happened yet. But I said, please, dad, don't go outside. Just stay home and shut off your phone and just be home.

MG: Tell me about your life here in Canada. You're a Canadian citizen. How did you end up here?

ANNA: I came years ago here for the very same reason my dad was being followed. And we had threats, people following our family members and they were Taliban members. It was scary for me to be there and work. I had the opportunity of coming to Canada. And although in our culture, it's not something that we do for a single young girl to be travelling and living by herself. However, my dad made the exception because he felt it was the right decision. At least I will be safe. I came here in Canada and I stayed here and I started my life here.

MG: And the right decision so that you would have a better life

ANNA: 100 percent and more than better. I think the correct word is a safer life.

MG: But it must be really difficult. I mean, I know you have a job here and you have a new baby as well, but you're you're separated from family. What is it like being so far from home, especially as events like this unfold?

ANNA: I remember my friends in college would say, you're so lucky you're living by yourself, you're so independent. It's nice to have this kind of life. And I always say, you guys are lucky to have your family here because family means everything to me. And it was stressful. I remember I lost so much weight when I initially came to Canada. I lost my appetite. It was a totally different world to me. And now I have settled down. I have my family here. But I was telling my husband the other day that I feel guilty, that I'm safe here, and the fact that my family is not is stressing me more. And I can't even sleep at night because I feel I don't deserve this. I want I should have been with them.

MG: Your sister is in Afghanistan, Mariam. You heard Anna describing how she was feeling as she learnt that the Taliban had taken control of the country. What do you remember about that when the Taliban moved in?

MARIAM: We hear a lot. Yes, that life is unpredictable and unexpected things happen. But that day when I heard that Taliban came, I was shocked. I was feeling numb. There was always fear of being killed in a bomb blast. There was fear of being killed over carrying a smartphone with yourself and many security issues that we face on the daily basis. But I still was working. I wanted to do my duty to make a change in the society to inspire those of my age. But in a matter of few, how is everything just changed? And I still remember standing in the window. So to aim and that night and I saw for the first time I saw Taliban crossing the roads and it was extremely scary for me.

MG: What was that like? I mean, Stan, as you say, standing in the window at two o'clock in the morning, seeing the Taliban arrive.

MARIAM: You know, I am the youngest in the house and I never experienced this before. But when I. Them in front of me, crossing the road to kind of physical appearance that they have those especially carrying those big guns with themselves. And there was yelling and there was gunfire. So it was extremely scary for me. I remember I was crying and my mom was telling me that it's OK, these things will get better. Just don't cry right now.

MG: In the first few weeks since the Taliban has taken control of the country, I mean, you mentioned a little bit about daily life. How has life changed for you?

MARIAM: Most of my work involves working with government counterparts. I've been part of money consultation meetings in Kabul and also provinces. The moment that I heard the Taliban came, I knew that I will have no chance of being able to get out of this house or be able to work again, be able to, you know, do my feet even wearing what I used to wear, the way that I felt weird. So it was a whole change. I just knew in that point that things have gone really bad right now.

MG: What is that like? I mean, as you said, you'd never grown up with anything like this before and you were living a life where you had this job and now you're not leaving the house because you don't feel safe. What is that like?

MARIAM: I don't know exactly is there a word that can express how you feel being a 23 year old girl with so much of, you know, dreams and passion to work and to continue to grow? It feels like a stopping point in your life when you are like, OK, this is the time that I'm be going to do nothing more than this. I will spend my whole life in this house, not going to be able to go out to pursue my dreams, to work. So it is extremely difficult for me. It's extremely difficult.

MG: How does daily life work in terms of you mentioned getting money and groceries? Can you get money from the banks? Is there food in the stores?

MARIAM: There are neighbours that we have. They have young boys. And my mom asked them to get us some bread grocery that whenever they go to market. So she requests them to get that for us.

MG: How's your mom doing?

MARIAM: Every day she is telling me that I am losing my hair and I really want to make sure that she's well because I am also in the same condition. But I keep telling her that it's okay, mom, please don't the stress so much and otherwise you will get sick. She's also [unintelligible]. So it's it feels so scary, you know, this possibility of she being very sick. There are very limited hospitals with very limited people that are working on it.

MG: So you're trying to reassure her that it's going to be OK?

MARIAM: Yes. What else I can do?

MG: What's the most difficult thing about the moment that you're in right now?

MARIAM: Just not seeing my father, my brother. It's is the most heart thing that we are experiencing right now. I wanted to, I remember when the Taliban knocked the door, my mom wanted to go and open the door because she felt that there is something wrong. But my father didn't let her to go. She and he said that it's OK, I will go on open and go see what happens. My dad went and my brother went and they took them. There was a huge number of people gathering and after that they got his car saying that this is a government car. But he was insisting that this is my private car. This is the car that I bought from my own salary. But they didn't accept and they took it. And my dad came. I saw his face. I don't know how to explain this, but they say we will come back. And and after that, I was able to see them again.

MG: We'll continue our conversation with Anna, Marium and their father in 90 seconds. My name is Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

[Music]

MG: Hello, I'm Matt Galloway, you're listening to the current before your regional update, I was speaking with two sisters, one woman in Canada who were calling Anna, the other in Afghanistan who we're calling Mariam. We've changed their names because their lives are endangered. Anna is trying to get her family out of Afghanistan and into Canada. And that family includes her father, who's currently in hiding. Years ago, he helped imprisoned Taliban members who've now been released. And they are looking for him. We're calling him Dad and we pick up our conversation with him. Your dad is with us on the line, and I should mention that while you, Miriam and Anna both speak perfect English, as we can hear, your father just speaks a bit of English. So Anna is going to do some translation for us, if that's OK. But I'll ask him the questions directly. Dad, you are in hiding. Can you tell me a little bit about why you are in hiding?

DAD: [Foreing speech transclated via Anna] He has worked over thirty five years with different positions as a prosecutor for anti terrorism, al-Qaida, Taliban and ISIS. His job was to prosecute these members, put them in jail with the fact that now they are in power and they are in Kabul. He had no choice but to leave. His life was in danger as he saw it coming when they came to investigate, find out about his whereabouts, took his car. He knew the next step will be him, so he had to leave.

MG: How difficult is it for you to be in hiding and be separated from your family?

DAD: [Translated via Anna] because he doesn't see it coming. And now that the reality is that they're there, he doesn't want my family to be traumatised and for anything to be happening to him in front of them by Taliban, he had to leave. And it is the most difficult decision that he has made in his life. The most difficult part is the unknown for him right now.

MG: What is it like for you to hear your father talk about what he's gone through?

ANNA: To be honest, I told myself I'm not going to cry and I'm trying my best not to. My dad was the person. I started to sponsor them. I wanted my dad to visit me because all these years I waited for the perfect time to be able to go and meet him. And he said no later, later. And he because he's so much committed to his job, he was so much committed to his country that he felt that I will make him stay here. I will convince him somehow. Somehow when I submitted his application, I asked him if I convinced you if I begged you to stay here with me, will you? He said, no, I want to retire there. I want to retire in Kabul. That's my home, my job, my family, everything. So when this happened and when I spoke with him, I said, How are you, Dad? He said, I'm fine. Don't worry, I will be leaving the house, because he knew that the risk is there. For the first time in his life, and I'm not even lying, for the first time, he has asked me for help. He said, do what you can do to help us. And that was the most difficult and heartbreaking moment for me, because he would have never, ever asked me to help him get out of the country. That was the the last thing that he wanted to do and it was near to impossible for him to leave. And that's what when I started sending emails to whoever and everyone I knew, I even send an email to Justin Trudeau because I wanted him to hear me and how dangerous it is. It's a very time sensitive case that we have. We just want to be heard.

MG: And is that what you were when you were saying earlier that in some ways the situation stresses you out and you feel guilty because you're here in Canada and your family is back home? That's what's kind of causing that.

ANNA: Yes, it's very stressful. And it's the guilt is there because he asked me for help for the first time in my life. And I'm trying it's like you're drowning and you're asking for a hand to save you. And everyone is watching you and no one is reaching and no one is giving you that hand to get you out of the water. I feel like that. And that's why I've sent millions of emails to mayor to MP, to minister to Justin Trudeau, because I wanted to be heard. I don't know what else I can do.

MG: And have you heard anything back in terms of people who would be able to help you to get your family out of Afghanistan?

ANNA: So far, no. The responses that I received this the auto reply emails that says go to the immigration website, there are resources for you. But again, I have done that. I sent an application I cannot wait. My dad cannot be in hiding for so long. It's a very urgent situation that we have.

MG: Mariam, what about for you? Your sister is working so hard to try and get the family out of Afghanistan. What do you think of what she's trying to do?

MARIAM: This is my sister that worked so hard and she made all this effort. She's not sleeping. It is day and night that she's asking me to send me this and that I want to submit every once application to the here. So I understand that she's a. Experiencing, you know, I just want everyone to understand the urgency of this case,

MG: Anna, I want to ask a couple more questions to your dad, if I can. Why did you want to stay in Afghanistan? What was it that that when Anna was interested in getting you to to leave the country that kept you in your country

DAD: [Transtated via Anna] Over the last 20 years? He fought for the country. His family was there. He loves his country. He's travelled to so many other countries. So just bring awareness and he has hope for the future. And that's the sole reason that he wanted to stay there because he wanted to fight for the country. Now that all hearts are broken, his heart is broken to and he see no future for him. And the fact that he can no longer serve under the positions that he had, he sees no hope.

MG: What do you hope for Afghanistan now? I mean, when you take a look at what the country could be in future, Anna, what are you hoping for?

ANNA: It's I have no hope, to be honest. I don't think things will get better. 20 years is a very long time. US is the most powerful country in the world. I think if they failed us, if all these countries that were there in Afghanistan, all this much money that was invested and everything that was built all these years, that can collapse in a matter of a day, I think there's no hope. I'm heartbroken and I my heart will bleed forever.

MG: Mariam, for you, what is your hope for the future of your country?

MARIAM: Well, I totally agree with my sister. It's exactly the way I feel for the country. There is no hope left, to be honest. I'm really happy that my sister made it and she's now working and she's all set. But for me, I love my job. I love the place that I go. I was working. I love my colleagues. And I was very I mean, lucky that I got lucky that I had the chance to work there. But for now, it is a nightmare for me to even go out of the door. So there is no hope left.

MG: And I want to ask the same question to your father. What's what's the best you can hope for, for a country that you love and that you now seem that you have to leave?

DAD: [Via Anna] New government of Afghanistan? Seventeen ministers, all of them are blacklisted terrorists. Three of them are from Guantanamo prison. There's no human rights right now. Prisoners are free. If they were murderers, if they were terrorists, if they were rapist, they're all free. There's poverty. There's no international support right now. And the way US left with their troops and other countries, you see no hope. The government is the base of a country. When the government is built of these terrorists. He's seen no hope, no future.

MG: I know, Anna, that you're working really hard to get your family out of Afghanistan. And it's an incredibly difficult situation there on the line. Is there anything that you would say to them right now?

ANNA: I just want to say again, I don't want to cry. I know they know that I'm trying. It was my husband who told my dad that I'm not sleeping and I'm not eating. I would never say that to them because I don't want to stress them, of course. But I just want them to know that I am trying. The guilt is there with me. If I eat, if I drink, if I even distract myself for a second, I never forget about them and I will do whatever I can. If I have to give my life for them, I will and I'm there for them and I will try to get them to help.

MG: I wish you the very best of luck and I hope you keep us posted in the work that you're doing to try and get your family out. Anna, thank you very much.

ANNA: Thanks so much for giving us the time to be our voice. And I really appreciate your time.

MG: And Mariam, I wish you the very best, you and your father. I hope you stay safe and healthy and I hope you get here sooner rather than later. Thank you very much for speaking with us.

MARIAM: Thank you so much for having us. It means a lot to us to have our voice heard. Thank you.

MG: We've been speaking with a family from Afghanistan. Anna is Afghan, Canadian, living here in Canada. Her sister Mariam is in Afghanistan, as is their father, who's in hiding. We've changed their names because they and their families lives are in danger. We did request an update from the government of Canada on the ability to evacuate family members of Canadian citizens. A statement sent to us in part reads, Canada and its allies have received assurances from the Taliban that. And citizens with travel authorisation from other countries will be allowed to leave Afghanistan. Canada has been firmly committed to helping evacuate as many people as we could from Afghanistan as long as it was safe to do so. The Taliban's interim government has already made some official announcements. This week, the deputy head of the Taliban's cultural commission, Ahmadullah Wasiq, announced that women would not be allowed to play sports. Such a declaration would have violated the rights of women under Afghanistan's old constitution. My next guest knows all about that because she helped create that constitution. Najla Ayubi is a lawyer and former Afghan judge. She is currently chief of coalition and global programmes at Every Woman Treaty, a global NGO working to end violence against women and girls. She is in Los Angeles. Najla Ayoubi. Hello to you.

NAJLA AYOUBI: Good morning to you.

MG: What are you thinking as you listen to Marium, she's 23, she's talking about what life is like for her and her family in Afghanistan, thinking she's going to spend

MG: the rest of her life in this house because the Taliban has taken over her country.

NAJLA AYOUBI: Yeah, when I heard her, it gives me chills. And because I have been in that position when the first time the Taliban came in, I think this is the reality of the woman's woman's life in Afghanistan particularly. There is no for now, there is no there is no opportunity, particularly how they will be how they will be perceived in the society through the Taliban saying that they are they have changed. But I don't think any changes because it reminds me of my time when I was asking - because we didn't have a family male member in the family - but I had to ask my neighbour to allow his four year old boy to go with me outside and buy groceries. This is really the reality of the of the situation, though. They are saying that they will be allowed to go to study. But based on the Sharia law and we don't know which Sharia law, which are your base based on which Shariah law, they are going to allow women to go to work, whether this is the actual Sharia law or the Taliban version of Sharia law.

MG: and that that's the question in some ways. I mean, the world doesn't yet know which Taliban this is or how the Taliban is going to govern it. We're already seeing, for example, a ban on women playing in sports. This is just a day after announcing the interim government. And yet what we're also seeing this week in particular, are these protests by women and other young people. They've been out on the streets of Kabul and other cities as well. Take a listen to this.

SOUNDCLIP

[Women chanting in protest]

MG: We didn't see those sorts of protests by women when the Taliban first came to power in the 90sHow do you think this generation is different

NAJLA AYOUBI: and the Taliban may not change, but Afghan society, the Afghan the Afghan generation, the current generation that they haven't been to those days, to the war, to the civil war, they are the one that they will bring the change. And I think that the resistance will bring a lot of change into the society. They may be able to change the mentality of the Taliban by by by being out and by being is speaking out. But particularly I heard from this woman that these protesters have been targeted, even even followed to their homes. So it means that they are also there is a very it is a very high level of tension between the two forces, the people and also the Taliban.

MG: You know, about that idea of being targeted for the work that you've done. I mean, you were a district attorney when the Taliban came to power. What happened to you in that situation?

NAJLA AYOUBI: Actually, when this lady just gave me I'm I've become more emotional right now because I feel that I was the I and my older sister were we were the breadwinners of the family. We had no men or men in our family to be a breadwinner. That's why we lost everything, not only our freedom as a woman, as a tool to work and to study, but at the same time we lost our bread and we lost our economy, too. So that's why when I when I sent home the first day, they send me home and I went to showed up to work, but they send me home, they're saying we don't need you. And this is exactly happening after twenty years.

MG: And that was in the space of one day. They said you cannot come to work anymore.

NAJLA AYOUBI: Just yesterday you go to the work and the next day you are not allowed to do. You're No. One in the society. So I'm just thinking about my situation twenty years ago plus and also now it's exactly unfortunately the national community allowed this to happen to Afghanistan.

MG: When you were told to go home, and as you say, you and your sister were the breadwinners and suddenly your job disappears. How did you survive? How did you make a living?

NAJLA AYOUBI: I and my sister have other skills, too, like I had to start my tailoring business at ho,e.

MG: A tailor, a tailoring business.

NAJLA AYOUBI: Yeah, I'm a very good tailor.

MG: Yes, but but that's very obviously very different than being a judge in the district attorney.

NAJLA AYOUBI: Totally. This is like the night, you know, it's like a black and white. You know, you change from someone being very educated, making a lot of very important decisions while being a judge and while being an attorney. But the next day, you're you're just sitting and playing with the machine with a sewing machine. And then also your audience is changing because your audience is only the woman that maybe they're illiterate or they're illiterate, that you may help them in some ways, which I did actually. I provided them with training, sewing, training, that they have to be also being able to earn money because that's something that you feel the sympathy, empathy and connectivity because of the common the common struggle that you're going through, no matter where you are, whether you were a judge or whether you're a housewife, you're going to the same to the same struggle under the Taliban.

MG: What did you tell yourself over the course of that time that that kept you going? I mean, what were you leaning on for support?

NAJLA AYOUBI: In our culture and also I was in our religion, Islam, it says that if you don't have a hope, if you're not hopeful, you're not a good Muslim. So that piece really put me in a in a place where I always thinking that, OK, this is a challenge how we can turn it into opportunities, because there were times that we had no bread on our table, but at the same time, having a business and teaching the other woman to earn the same was also another piece that really kept me going. Thank God that I managed to start that business and make make a living a good living out of it and at the same time thinking that, you know, because we have seen the lots of regime came and gone. But as an activist, I, I had to remain positive to be able to help others. There wasn't like ups and downs in those days. But the still the hopeful piece was more stronger than the helplessness and hopelessness.

MG: You talk about regimes coming and going. And eventually the Taliban regime was swept out of Afghanistan and you became involved. In the process of helping to draught a constitution, you went all over the country to do that. What was that like?

NAJLA AYOUBI: Oh, you know, like after five years being covered for this, what I went to work, I was I lost the confidence those days slowly when I went to the work. And slowly I came back to my professional. I got my my files in my cases to deal with. Then I built up the confidence. And that's why I was I was hopeful. I was probably higher in energy and making sure that whatever we lost in the past five or six years, I have to cover them by putting a lot of effort, making sure that we are covering anything that the people want. That's why I ran to different part of the country. I was I was establishing the Constitution and also particularly I was really focussing a lot on how to put the gender balance, how to cover the gender balance in the entire process.

MG: If you go before the Taliban arrived, I mean, what do you remember about life in Afghanistan from the 70s, from the 80s, for example?

NAJLA AYOUBI: When I was very young, very young woman girls actually in the school, in my school, girls were going with the miniskirts. They were very fancy, which always I was dreaming to become one of them. But they would really see their very educated families were very open. You could go to the picnic. You could go to the movie theatres with the families for me as a very young kid. But I was like, it's really I remember them because I was really young. But still, those are the memories that I have that I feel that Afghanistan needs that peaceful time.

MG: Does that give you hope, those memories? Do they give you hope about what might be possible in future?

NAJLA AYOUBI: Yes, because I have been like I could see myself as a living history. So I saw so many changes. For example, the changes in the mindset, the social mindset of the men is happening between the age of eight and nine to twenty two. So it means that if you're working with the men in the society, with the boys and raising boys with the mentality that they have to respect and accept the woman and woman being in a society, being an equal citizen, then definitely we will not be seeing Taliban extremism in the coming years. So for me, it's important now and maybe if we have done our job before by providing prevention, education and also for girls, it's important for them to know their rights. Now we see all of these uprising of the women in the society because they know about their rights. And there is there is cabbage, there is a demand. And because they have practised their rights.

MG: you had to leave the country in twenty fifteen. And you love the country so much. I mean, what was it that finally forced you to leave?

NAJLA AYOUBI: I think being an activist and being a lawyer and a first female judge in my province was not easy. And unfortunately, in the during the first jihadist regime, I lost my father and before that I lost my brother. Both of them were very vocal about women's rights and women's education. And fortunately, I paid a high level of price, not only me, but my family paid a very high price for being active in being a defending human rights and women's rights. And in 2014, I have received lots of death threats and it become more obvious that even the government mentioned to me that they cannot provide the protection to me. So that's why I had to hide like for five to six months hanging here and there and different countries within the city and Kabul. And then finally I thought, OK, let me go out and let the dust settle and then I will go back. And unfortunately, it never came. It never happened because God bless my mom. I lost her last year to cancer. She always told me that she didn't want to see the third body coming home.

MG: What do you miss the most about the country?

NAJLA AYOUBI: My work in the country and I miss that I am able to do. A lot for women in the country doing doing here globally, but I know that my country needs me the most right now and I really miss that. The work that I work with the grassroots women, women and women's organisations with the government just bringing lots of changes on the life of putting the foundations, reform of the laws that I was part of it putting. I mean, I'm so proud of that. I'm I'm proud. And I'm I feel that the I feel that I have done something that the woman in the past 20 years exercise. It means that we have millions of educated boys and girls in the county that even you see all of these resistance are not coming from my generation woman in my generation. But this is coming more from the generation, the younger generation, the very educated generation that they know and they demand their rights.

MG: They aren't going anywhere. And they are there to to build that country.

NAJLA AYOUBI: No, I think they are. Coliban, they're fooling themselves. And I think they have to know that this is not the country that we have seen it in. Nineteen ninety six. This is two thousand twenty one.

MG: You've been out of the country for six years. What do you think it would be like to go back to Afghanistan in the future when it's safe?

NAJLA AYOUBI: Oh oh. This is one of my dreams to go back because I feel I will be feeling home because I grew up and I, I have my community, I have my relatives, I have my friends, my classmates, I have my places, my memories, my family memories. I mean, even going and visiting the the graveyards and visiting my mom and dad is also another and another dream and see people and do something about what is happening and be part of the progress in the country.

MG: I hope you get home soon. In the meantime, I'm glad to have the chance to speak with you. Thank you very much.

NAJLA AYOUBI: Thank you so much for having me.

NAJLA AYOUBI: Take care. Bye bye.

MG: Najla Ayoubi is chief of coalition and global programmes at Every Woman Treaty. She's a former judge and served as legal advisor for the State Ministry of Parliamentary Affairs in Afghanistan. We'll continue our series, Afghanistan in the Shadow of the Taliban Monday on The Current. Craig Whitlock, the author of a book called The Afghanistan Papers, will be here to discuss what went wrong over the two decades the U.S. military was on the ground in that country. That's coming up Monday on this programme. That is The Current for this Friday. Coming up next on CBC Radio one, it's Q Some members of Afghanistan's first all female orchestra were at a practise in Kabul when the Taliban took that city. Most of the women are from a Kabul orphanage. They range from 13 to 20 years of age. And when security guards rushed into their rehearsal room to tell them that the Taliban had arrived, they had no choice but to leave behind their instruments and run. The Taliban destroyed those instruments when they found them. Some of the women have fled the country. Others are still there. The group is called Zorah after the Persian Goddess of music will end our programme with some of their music. This is Jama Narenji, performed by Zorah in 2016.

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[Music]

MG: My name is Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. We'll see you on Monday.

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Friday September 10, 2021 Full Transcript

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