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The AIH Transcript For September 07, 2021

[hosts]Carol Off, Chris Howden[/hosts]

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is “As It Happens”.

[music: theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

CO: Limited additions. As the Taliban cements its grip on Afghanistan, refugees are looking to Pakistan for a way out -- but Pakistan's incoming High Commissioner to Ottawa says there's only so much his country will do.

CH: Following the leader. An opposition politician in Brazil says President Bolsonaro's calls for his supporters to demonstrate in the streets aren't just undemocratic -- they may be the first step in an attempt to install himself as a dictator.

CO: A question of time. A court in Belarus sentences the pro-democracy politician Maria Kolesnikova to 11 years in prison -- accusing her of undermining the country's dictatorship. Her sister hopes she'll be out long before that.

CH: Unpromising promises. A young First Nations writer says it's always frustrating when federal leaders make lofty promises to Indigenous communities and don't follow through -- and this election campaign is no different.

CO: A Boris to be reckoned with. In St. Petersburg, Russia, voters who want to re-elect an opposition candidate named Boris Vishnevsky have a problem. His opponents are also named Boris Vishnevsky.

CH: And... falling between the quacks. A Dutch researcher is convinced he's unearthed a decades-old recording of a duck speaking English -- and we'll share the sound of that single fowl phrase.

CH: “As It Happens,” the Tuesday edition. Radio that knows you can fix anything with duck tape.

[music: theme]

Part 1: Pakistan Afghan Refugees, Election: Indigenous Rights, Duck Talking Recording

Pakistan Afghan Refugees

Guest: Ameer Khurram Rathore

CH: There was gunfire on the streets of Kabul today. Taliban gunmen fired bullets into the air to disperse protesters. The crowd had gathered to denounce what they say is Pakistan's influence over the Taliban. The incident comes as the Taliban works to establish its government and formalize its control over the country. At the same time, thousands of Afghans are attempting to flee to Pakistan. Some see the country as a refuge from the Taliban. Others hope to use it as a through-point to countries including Canada, which have promised them a chance at a new home. Ameer Khurram Rathore is Pakistan's High Commissioner-designate to Canada. We reached him in Ottawa.

CO: High Commissioner Rathore, what is the situation for those Afghans who are now at the Pakistani border trying to get into your country?

AMEER KHURRAM RATHORE: We are still working on the mechanics of the things. But so far, for the border crossing through land route, the people need to get a visa from Pakistan embassy in Kabul. And the people who have the visa, they are... my understanding is that they are being allowed through.

CO: And how... what does one have to do to get one of those visas? Because we know there are thousands of people trying to get out, who fear this takeover of the Taliban, and are not able to because they lack those documents. So what does one have to do to get one of those?

AKR: Well, for the things at the end of the Afghan government, we can't comment. But I can tell you that I spoke to our ambassador in Kabul a couple of days ago, and he was telling me that the embassy is providing consular services 24 hours a day. And they are issuing around 1,200 visas by day. Which, given the resources of our embassy, is a lot.

CO: What are the efforts on the part of your government, the Pakistani government, to assure people, to bring some kind of security to Afghanistan right now? We've heard from your prime minister, who regards the Taliban as a... takeover, as a victory. We see that from many of your politicians. Do you agree that the Taliban victory is something that Pakistan celebrates?

AKR: Well, I think this is the wrong impression celebrating the victory of Taliban. What has been our perspective? It's very simple. See, Canada is, what, 8,000 kilometres away from Afghanistan? And the distance between Pakistan and Afghanistan is zero. We are neighbours. We have been saying all along that Taliban are a political reality, and this is a political issue. This has to be resolved politically. We were not heard earlier. But we... we still stick to the point that for peace and stability in Afghanistan, our priority, our advice is an inclusive government which represents all the shades of opinion in Afghanistan.

CO: It's a badly kept secret, as you know, that the... that your government, elements of the military, and the intelligence agency have been supporting the Taliban for… for decades. And that was observed by Canadian forces there, Canadian NGOs, journalists. Material support and safe haven has been provided to the Taliban for all these years. And so I'm wondering now with that relationship, what do you plan to do with it? What influence can you have on the Taliban to have them regard the human rights of people in that country respected?

AKR: Well, regarding your first point, Taliban are a political reality. And I think what you are confusing is between the notion of keeping the contacts open and supporting the Taliban. They are two completely different things. If you say that you had contacts with Taliban, everybody had contacts with Taliban. Who didn't? Had there been no contact, how could the accord happen? But the supporting the Taliban, that's a completely different thing.

CO: And you're saying is not true? You're denying that... that the Taliban... because that's been widely observed over many decades, right up to now, that your government, the military, the intelligence agency has been supporting Pakistan. I'm just... I know that you have said elsewhere, and your government is denying that that has been the case and that you have provided material support to the Taliban. So I'm just wondering, given that you do have that relationship, how are you planning to use it?

AKR: Well, [awkward chuckling] I would... I would reiterate that we did had contact, but these contacts… with these contacts. But we're not synonymous with open support, material support, as we say. As far as the future is concerned, as I mentioned, our primary goal, primary objective and desire is for peace and stability in Afghanistan because that is absolutely essential for the economic development, well-being of the people of Pakistan.

CO: And you think the Taliban can... can supply that?

AKR: Um, let's... let's hope. They are... they saying OK things. Let's see how... how they act. We shouldn't jump the gun. Let's see how things… how things transpire. We haven't recognized Taliban as of yet. And that's the sole reason. We want to see how they act.

CO: When you say observe how they act, is it, like, so far so good?

AKR: Um, let's see. It's too early to... to make a judgement.

CO: Well, how about separating the... the male and female students being with a curtain between them? How about the information that women will have employment and education in Afghanistan according to the tenets of Islam? How about the history of the Taliban running the country where it oppressed not just women, but large sectors of the society and did not allow free speech? Would that be something that you would be OK with?

AKR: Well, you have... if you have ever travelled to Pakistan and seen the universities there, there is no segregation in Pakistan. But again, it's not for us to mould their society in our image. Let… let the Afghans decide what they want.

CO: You think that Afghans are free to decide whether they want the Taliban in power or not?

AKR: We hope they will be.

CO: Well, how would they do that? What is the Taliban's going to have an election?

AKR: I don't know. But what we are... what I have seen, the protests, the women coming out so bravely in Kabul, that was unimaginable, say, in the previous regime of the Taliban. So let's see how things transpire. We shouldn't jump the gun. Let's... let's wait and see. And if they are... they're doing right things, we should engage with them.

CO: High Commissioner, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

AKR: Thank you very much, ma'am.

CH: Ameer Khurram Rathore is Pakistan's High Commissioner-designate to Canada. We reached him in Ottawa.

[music: indie rock]

Election: Indigenous Rights

Guest: Riley Yesno

CH: Lately, the news from the federal campaign trail has been dominated by talk of guns, vaccine passports, and the protesters who are very much against vaccine passports. What has not been at the forefront are boil water advisories, the horrors of residential schools, and other issues that affect Indigenous communities. After a summer in which unmarked graves were discovered at former residential schools, it seemed like Indigenous issues were finally impossible to ignore. Flags were lowered, Canada Day celebrations were cancelled, and politicians made lofty promises. With just 13 days to go before the election, we reached Riley Yesno to talk about those promises. She is an Indigenous Rights Advocate and writer from Eabametoong First Nation, who recently graduated from the University of Toronto. She's in Toronto.

CO: Riley, I know you have been following this election campaign. So how much attention has there actually been to the issues of Indigenous people?

RILEY YESNO: Um, yeah, I have been paying close attention. I think that we're still not seeing enough, which is incredibly disappointing, especially coming out of the last few months, right? Where there was all of the revelations of the graves at former residential schools.

CO: What are you hearing, if anything, of what… let's say the leaders are saying? I mean, we know that I know you worked with Justin Trudeau and his youth council when you were in high school. You have been engaged in politics. We saw in 2015, Justin Trudeau described this as the most important relationship was our relationship with Indigenous people. And yet, in six years of being the prime minister, six years since we had the Truth and Reconciliation Commission that said there was a cultural genocide, what has actually been done?

RY: Yeah, I mean, it's why I think I said in the last election, the 2019 election, that Justin Trudeau's biggest competition at that time was not Andrew Scheer, but it was 2015. Justin Trudeau, who made all of these promises to Indigenous people, got Indigenous people out in historic numbers to vote and then failed us time and time again since those years. So, looking at the Liberal's actual track record, you know, they have completed only a small, small handful of, say, the 94 calls to action. At this rate, they won't be completed until something ridiculous like 2070. They missed their target for boil water advisories, missed their target for murdered and missing Indigenous women and girls action plans. And so we've kind of just seen one broken promise after another in terms of the Trudeau Liberals.

CO: And what about the Conservative leader, Erin O'Toole? He says that flags have been flying at half-mast for the children who died at those residential schools. Those flags should now be raised. What are you hearing from him?

RY: Yeah, I mean, Erin O'Toole's platform and the Conservatives was the first one that I read in terms of their Indigenous commitments. And it is... it's actually horrifying, in my... in my view. I mean, we started off with the title, which is, you know, saying commitments to Canada's Indigenous people as if, you know, Canada owns us. Erin O'Toole, of course, came under scrutiny a number of months ago for his role in a young Conservatives, you know, campaign or meeting or something like that, where he denied, you know, the true nature and atrocity of residential schools. And, you know, it's really stark to see how he's leading in the polls, at least as of right now. And so now Canadians who were flying their flags half-mast and wearing their orange shirts are now lining up to vote for this man. It's really kind of harrowing.

CO: I just want to point... your reference to the TRC, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, and the 94 calls to action that I think Erin O'Toole has committed to implementing six of them. I think all dealing with the residential schools. Has… what about the NDP? Have we seen... has the NDP, has Jagmeet Singh, made reference to those calls to action?

RY: Yeah. So I mean, the NDP platform certainly has, you know, the best language and, like, the best analysis around it. So they commit to implementing all 94 of the Truth and Reconciliation calls to action, creating an Indigenous housing plan that includes on and off-reserve. So you can tell that there is some level of like, you know, being in touch with Indigenous communities and probably also because the most of the can... most of the Indigenous candidates running in this election are with the NDP. But also, the one thing that I'm worried about is that it's a bit of like, you know, a Trudeauism, right? Like if they were to ever get into office, to make these far-reaching, these stretching promises, it's... it's going to be really hard to fulfil those, I think. And then also, it's going to set a really bad precedent for Indigenous people to... to be let down again.

CO: Some months ago, we spoke with Mumilaaq Qaqqaq. She is, you know, an NDP politician. She was the... Nunavut's only seat in the House of Commons. In the interview we had with her, she told us that she was not going to run again in this campaign. And it was absolutely touching and an important interview we had with her, where she described how disillusioned she was with the political system, how little she was able to accomplish with... with… inside politics. You had considered running for the NDP and then chose not to. Why is that?

RY: Yeah, so it's… it's, you know, really echoes kind of what Mumilaaq was saying, you know? So you had mentioned at the beginning that I used to work with Prime Minister Justin Trudeau. That was when I was very young. I was super into this idea of politics and elected politics in Canada as a change-making vehicle. And through my time working with the prime minister, I came to realize how... how truly ineffective it can be at times. And more so, how violent and how, you know, perhaps my... my voice and my skills could be used to better serve my community and other places. And that's what Mumilaaq said. I really love that she was saying, like, you know, I'm not quitting. I'm just changing all this work that I'm doing, and I'm going to bring it somewhere else. And the more I thought about it, the more I just thought, you know, along the lines of that famous Audre Lorde quote, which is that you'll never dismantle the master's house by using the master's tools. [both laugh] And to that end, I don't think I'll ever achieve an Indigenous, you know, sovereignty through the colonial government.

CO: But you don't... I mean, you see, politics is a... is a... is a way of changing things, but not through the system that exists right now. Am I getting that straight?

RY: Yeah, yeah, I think, yeah, the system is inherently flawed. And working within it, I don't know. I'm not convinced that that's the best way to use one skills.

CO: And what is the conversation that non-Indigenous people should be having about that? What do you tell the rest of us as to how we should regard Indigenous issues when we're casting that vote?

RY: I mean, I think the election time is just one time of many where non-indigenous people who claim or want to have allyship with Indigenous people to put, you know, their money where their mouth is [chuckling]. And so you can't say you support Indigenous people and then show up and vote for a party that's actively trying to make things worse for us or strip away our rights or take us back in time. That is, you know, counter to everything people seem to claim a lot these days. And is not conducive to a good relationship. And so I think that during election time, it's important to turn to either the Indigenous people in your life or the countless Indigenous people online in communities who are doing advocacy work and telling us, you know, what we should be paying attention to, who should we be looking at for leadership? And... and now's the time really to do that and put your allyship into action.

CO: Riley, there is... you've given us a lot to think about here, and I really appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

RY: Yeah, thanks for having me.

CH: Riley Yesno is an Indigenous rights advocate and writer from Eabametoong First Nation. She's in Toronto. And you can find more on that story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih. Leaders from the five qualifying federal parties are getting ready for the English-language debate this Thursday. It's your chance to hear the leaders answer questions determined by Canadians. Tune in to the Leaders' Debate on Thursday, September 9th at 9:00 p.m. Eastern on CBC TV, CBC Radio, CBC Listen, and CBC Gem.

[music: light rock]

Duck Talking Recording

Guest: Carel ten Cate

CH: Thirty-five years ago, on a nature reserve in Australia, a duck named Ripper opened its bill and produced, not a quack… but a word. In fact, three words. That ability had never been seen or heard in ducks before. And it was recorded by a researcher -- but promptly lost to history. So it's fallen to a Dutch expert in animal behaviour to unearth the recordings and prove, or so he says, that ducks can mimic human speech. We reached Professor Carel ten Cate in Leiden, the Netherlands.

CO: Professor ten Cate, how did you come to know that there was possibly a recording of a talking duck?

CAREL TEN CATE: Yeah, that was pure by coincidence. I was working on a refill paper on vocal learning in birds, and then I came across a reference to a duck which might imitate human sounds. And through a series of steps, I ended up with the Australian Wildlife Audio register.

CO: And you got hold of this recording from Australia. How did you react when you heard it?

CTC: I was quite stunned. It definitely didn't sound like a duck at all.

CO: All right. Well, we have to hear it then because we have a... we have this recording. And this is... we're going to play this clip for our listeners. This is a duck that can be called Ripper the Duck. And, OK, here it is.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: If this is talking, my finely-tuned transcriber ears can't make it out]

CO: OK. Well, that's the talking duck.

CTC: Yes, it is.

CO: What is the duck saying?

CTC: Yeah, that sounds like you're a bloody fool, bloody food, or a bloody fool.

CO: He's saying either you bloody fool or you bloody food?

CTC: Yeah.

CO: All right, let's hear it again.

SOUNDCLIP

[sound: now that I hear the duck again, he sounds like he is saying you bloody fool… also, the dress is blue with black stripes]

CO: You bloody fool. I… I.. and the slight Australian accent, I think?

CTC: Ah, it might well be, yeah, yeah.

CO: [chuckling] What... now, how can you be sure that this is a recording of a duck? There's no image, right? It's just the sound.

CTC: Yeah, that's true. When I first heard about the recording, before I received it, I thought, well, it must be a hoax that the duck is capable of doing that because we don't know of any other duck or geese species capable of imitation. When I got the recordings, the fragment is, of course, a tiny piece of a much longer recording of several sounds. And it also had other bird sounds, and it had the voice of the one who recorded it, who is Peter Fullagar, an Australian bird interested person.

CO: Yeah. And so you have this recording. But I mean, so it's possible this duck had other things to say or other words?

CTC: Yeah, well, it produced sounds of a slamming door. And there was also an original recording of that door itself.

CO: What?! The duck... the duck. Sorry, the duck made the sound of a slamming door?!

CTC: Yes, absolutely.

CO: Have you ever known a duck to make these kinds of sounds before?

CTC: No, not at all. So that's really what made it special.

CO: Why do you think of all the things a duck could say, all the sounds it could make? Why did it choose you bloody fool and the sound of a door slamming?

CTC: Well, those were sounds it probably heard when it was still very young, so just after hatching. So this species is also a special duck species in that there is quite extensive maternal care. So the mother looks after the offspring and feeds them for some time. And in this case, the bird was hand-reared. Normally, the duck would probably have heard other ducks around and learned its sounds from them. In this case, the only things it heard were the sounds of the aviary door or a door close to the aviary this was, and that of the animal caretaker looking after him. So those were taken as the model for its own vocalizations.

CO: [scoff] This poor little bird picks up some pretty foul language. I mean, you bloody fool and a door slamming. This sounds like a... well, maybe a traumatized duck.

CTC: Yeah, no, it's... you might think that. But to the duck, it has no special meaning, these sound. So it just accepts them as likely models for what it has to produce itself.

CO: Right. Have you ever known a duck to talk before? Do you have any other evidence that ducks speak?

CTC: No, and no other species. And of course, duck and geese, they have been bred in captivity and domesticated for many generations all over the world, and a range of species. And there have been no reports of anything like this. I must add that there are two other individuals which we later on discovered are also reported to imitate human sounds and the sound of a snorting pony, for instance.

CO: [laughing] And where is this duck?

CTC: Those were two ducks, which originated from eggs which has been transported to bird parks in the U.K.

CO: And this... and this duck made the sound of a snorting pony?

CTC: Yeah. So one of them made the sound of a snorting pony and the other one of a characteristic coughing of a caretaker.

CO: That's really extraordinary. Well, before we let you go, we just... our listeners should really hear this duck one more time. Here's Ripper.

SOUNDCLIP

[sound: the duck again]

CO: [chuckling] OK, that is really quite extraordinary. Professor ten Cate, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

CTC: Yeah. Thank you.

CO: Bye-bye.

CTC: Bye-bye.

CH: [laughing and clearing throat] We reached animal behaviour expert Professor Carel ten Cate in Leiden, the Netherlands.

[music: elevator music]

St. Petersburg ELXN

CH: Politicians: they're all the same. They all make the same promises, and they're all white guys in their late 50s with brown eyes, receding hairlines, and salt-and-pepper beards. And they're all named Boris Vishnevsky. People all over the world grumble about politicians being interchangeable But this specific grumble about how they're all Boris Vishnevsky is limited to St. Petersburg, Russia, right now. Where voters are staring at posters of three candidates for the municipal legislature. One is the bearded incumbent, an opposition politician named Boris Vishnevsky. The other two are bearded challengers, named Boris Vishnevsky. At least, that's what they're named now. They're imposters who changed their names to Boris Vishnevsky before the campaign. They were planted by the powers-that-be to confuse voters, and ideally, to steal votes from Boris Vishnevsky. It's a brazen tactic, but it's not new: it's been used in Russia since the '90s. What is new is that this time, they didn't just give the imposters the same name. In campaign posters, they also gave them very similar faces -- through a combination of makeovers and Photoshop. It's unclear whether the dirty trick will work. And right now, the imposters seem to be in hiding. So we don't yet know if the real Boris Vishnevsky will ever meet his matches -- or meet his match.

[music: jazz]

Part 2: Brazil Pro-Government Protests, Belarus Activists Convicted

Brazil Pro-Government Protests

Guest: Alessandro Molon

CH: In Brazil, crowds of thousands have taken to the streets today. Not to oppose President Jair Bolsonaro and his unpopular government -- but to support him. Mr. Bolsonaro has whipped up his supporters against institutions such as the Supreme Court -- which he believes is against him. His incitement of the crowds is being compared to former U.S. President Donald Trump's role in encouraging protests that led to the January 6th storming of the Capitol. Alessandro Molon is the opposition leader in the lower house of Brazil's National Congress. We reached him in Rio de Janeiro.

CO: Mr. Molon, can you describe what you have seen so far in these pro-Bolsonaro demonstrations in various places in Brazil today?

ALESSANDRO MOLON: Considering the time through which they have been mobilizing people to participate in the demonstrations, they haven't been able to... to gather the amount of people they would like. So they are smaller than they would like to... to be.

CO: People have compared what is happening with these… they're small, but they're very, very intense rallies, aren't they? And they... a lot of violent language, a lot of rhetoric. It has been compared to what happened in Washington on January 6th. Do you see anything similar happening in Brazil? Perhaps a kind of storming of the Supreme Court, as people have suggested, might happen in Brazil?

AM: It's exactly the same plot. Bolsonaro tries to imitate former President Trump. So, yes, I see a lot of similarity between what we've been seeing today in Brazil and what we have seen in Washington.

CO: Continuing with that... with that plot that's so similar to January 6th, do you see the language of President Bolsonaro, who is telling the people to support him, giving rhetoric that seems to then translate into stronger rhetoric on the ground. What are you hearing from these people in these rallies? What are they saying that... that gives you fear that there might be real violence?

AM: Some of them even threaten the lives of the justice. And their families are afraid about their lives, about being attacked physically. So they are very aggressive. They behave... the people that support Bolsonaro behave like if the justice were enemies of the country. It's a very dangerous way of behaving. And it's... it's a crime against the constitution, against our democracy. We feel our democracy is at risk because of this kind of behaviour of the president and of their support... of his supporters.

CO: The polls indicate that if there were an election today, Mr. Bolsonaro, who has... was... has been tremendously popular at... at the height of his time as president, is now... would lose by a landslide. And so, what do you think he is capable of doing in order to hold onto power?

AM: I could argue that it's the only thing that he thinks he can do in order to avoid losing the power. Because all the polls show, he's going to lose the next elections. The more he... he... he behaves bad in the presidency, the more he loses support in Brazil. So for each Brazilian that supports him, we have noticed two Brazilians that... that do not support him, that are against him. So it's like 64 per cent against 32 per cent in approval or disapproval of his government. So... so he has understood already that he's going to lose the next elections. That's why he's trying to avoid the next elections. And that's why he has already talking about a fraud that is going to be committed against him, just like Trump did in the United States, talking a lot about the fraud, the fraud, the fraud. He never proved any fraud in the elections, in the American elections. So it's exactly the same kind of behaviour, a dangerous one, an authoritarian one, an anti-democratic one.

CO: I just want to ask you, when you talk about staging, having a coup, he is still the president. So this would be a coup... kind of a self-coup. And so, what could he actually do? I mean, is he able to bring in the military, impose martial law, suspend your Congress, your... your... your Supreme Court? I mean, what powers does he have actually to stage this coup?

AM: Yeah, it would be a self-coup, exactly. A coup for the president who is in power. Not to take him out of power, but to... to... to make him stronger. I think he would try to close the Supreme Court, to... to substitute the justices, and I don't think that in the first moment, he will do anything against Congress. Because nowadays, he has, unfortunately, a majority in Congress. So that's why the demonstrations today are not against Congress. Because he has a majority support there. But I think he would start closing the Supreme Court or substituting the justice. And then, in a second moment, he... he would close the Congress or substitute the congressman that he doesn't like... like me because I'm the leader of the opposition against him in the... in the Chamber of Deputies and other deputies and senators. So I think he would do that. And he is working to have military support to do that. I think that the army is really divided because part of... of... of the army would support this kind of action and another part wouldn't support. So I think they're divided, and that's why he doesn't have still... he doesn't feel safe to... to do it already. But I'm sure wants to.

CO: In Brazil, just so people understand the situation on the ground you had during the pandemic, 584,000 people in Brazil died from COVID. You have high unemployment, inflation, high interest rates. There's a lot of tension in your country right now. Do you fear a kind of... any dissension into street violence? Is it possible with these... these rallies that it could actually end up in some sort of battle between opposing forces?

AM: That's what he would like to... to... to... to watch. I mean, the president. Because he only can do a coup if the chaos to justify it. I think he would like to see violence in the streets, riots in order to... to justify calling the military force to... to stop the chaos. So giving him a lot of power to... to govern over the other powers, over the Congress and over the judiciary. But I don't think Brazilian people is… want that. I think we are very specific people. Even though life is terrible nowadays, even though a lot of people has died because he has denied the intensity of this pandemic, I don't see people going to the streets and making violent protests or demonstrations.

CO: Mr. Molon, we will be following developments in Brazil, and I appreciate having you on the show tonight. Thank you.

AM: Thank you so much, Carol. And thank you so much for... for everybody who has listened to us.

CH: Alessandro Molon is the opposition leader in the lower house of Brazil's National Congress. He's in Rio de Janeiro.

[music: folk]

Liver Donation Nurse

CH: Julia King says she's always "felt the need to donate." And now, the 23-year-old has anonymously donated part of her liver to a child in need. But she had to travel out of her province to do it. Ms. King is a nurse at Vancouver General Hospital. After she learned that British Columbia doesn't do live liver donations, she travelled to Ontario for her surgery. Now she's nearly recovered back at home. And today, she spoke about why she hopes all transplant centres in Canada will expand their organ transplant programs.

SOUNDCLIP

JULIA KING: I started donating blood, and I signed up to be on the stem cell registry. And I just feel like it's something that I can easily do to help either save someone's life or help improve the quality of their life. And I know if someone who I cared about needed something, then I'd want other people to step up and help out.

STEPHEN QUINN: Donating blood is one thing because, of course, your body makes more blood.

JK: Yes.

SQ: But you first wanted to donate a kidney, is that right?

JK: I did, yes. I've been wanting to for a few years, but just because you need to be 25 in B.C. to do an anonymous donation. I wasn't able to.

SQ: And so then, how did you decide to donate part of your liver?

JK: I had started looking at different programs that allowed the liver transplant. And it does grow back, that portion of their liver that you donate. So that was another plus. And then it was just between B.C... not B.C., sorry. Ontario and Alberta are where they do the live liver transplants.

SQ: OK. And so you travelled to Ontario to do that. Do you know anything about the recipient of your donation?

JK: I just knew that it was a child and that they did well after the surgery. But that's all I... all I know.

SQ: BC Transplant told us that they stopped doing live liver transplants here in B.C. because of a decrease in need, but they hope to start them up again soon. And they say COVID has delayed that... that process. Why do you think it's important for B.C. to offer live transplants?

JK: I think it's important for B.C. to have live liver donation, as I just feel like there's a gap of... for patients in B.C. that are in liver failure, and they don't even have that as an option to have a live donor. I know that people do pass away on the waitlist while they're waiting for a deceased organ. And I just know as a registered nurse myself, I see patients who come in with liver failure, and they're experiencing symptoms and a decrease in their quality of life. And they're not sick enough to be placed yet on the transplant list. But they're still facing... still suffering, yeah. I want people to know that living donation is an option. And if it's not for you, then there's other ways to get involved. You can donate blood. You can join the stem cell registry or even just signing up to be an organ donor. And I think people just to think of it as this, a couple months of your life, but then it can help save someone else's or help improve the quality of their life.

CH: That was Vancouver nurse Julia King speaking with the CBC's Stephen Quinn this morning about travelling to Ontario last month to donate part of her liver to a child she doesn't know.

[music: horns!!]

Belarus Activists Convicted

Guest: Tatsiana Khomich

CH: In Belarus, two of the country's top pro-democracy politicians have begun serving prison sentences for trying to end the dictatorship of President Alexander Lukashenko. Maria Kolesnikova and Maxim Znak had helped lead the opposition in Belarus's 2020 election. They were detained in a security sweep amidst the protests that followed President Lukashenko's contested win. Yesterday, a court found them guilty of creating an extremist organization, and of calling for actions that would have damaged state security. Ms. Kolesnikova was sentenced to 11 years behind bars. Mr. Znak was sentenced to 10. Tatsiana Khomich is Maria Kolesnikova's sister. We reached her in Warsaw, Poland.

CO: Tatsiana, I can imagine that it's very difficult to see this happen to your sister. Do you have any idea how she's doing?

TATSIANA KHOMICH: So I saw some video from... from the trial before the sentence was announced. She, again, she was dancing, she was smiling, she was making her hearts with her hands. Even her hands were in the handcuffs. She was really positive, in very good mood. And we also discussed then with our father, with father Maxim Znak, with lawyers that, actually, they were both of them, Maria and Maxim, they were so strong when they had these terms, 11 and 10 years accordingly, like... like nothing changed... changed on their faces. They were really, really strong.

CO: You mentioned how this extraordinary scene in the courtroom, where she's... she's dancing, she's laughing, smiling. She's holding up her kind of a trademark of hers, which is to form her hands into a heart shape, even wearing these handcuffs. And so that's the face she's put on for the world. What do you think is going on in… in... for her personally? Do you think she is... she's strong enough to face this, these 11 years that now she faces?

TK: I think that everyone in such situation will behave in a different way, yes. And I know Maria well. She's my older sister. I’ve known her for many years. And this situation, this sentence, this term, this accusation will not break her, force, yes, her power. And, of course, she understands that it's 11 years. But from my point of view, I don't believe and I'm sure that she will not spend 12 years in prison because of the situation in Belarus and how it changed. Yes, that's why she's so strong.

Co: To this trial that we don't know what happened. It was held in secret. The Belarussian authorities said it had to be for security reasons, but it meant that we don't know what charges, if there were charges, what evidence there was against both your sister and against Maxim's Znak. Do you have any idea what happened in that courtroom?

TK: So we had some small pieces of information about it, yes. Like, from some small comments. Also from accusation of the general prosecutor office. Maxim Znak commented that it's like a scenery of some American blockbuster, plot of American blockbuster. Yes, but the real people, unfortunately. So they accused of being an extremist, yes. And they said that, OK, so if they recognise Maria and Maxim like extremists, it means that everyone who joined coordination council should be an extremist in the same way. And regarding accusation of conspiracy, they said also, like any people who just think about making some activist... political activism and just speak about not being agree with current authorities. If such a person also making and creating some conspiracy. So this, like, shows the level of this absurd accusation.

CO: And accusing your sister of being an extremist. Just... this is a woman who, I understand, she was in Belarus's Philharmonic Orchestra. She was a flute player. And now, she is this symbol of the democracy movement in the country. What... how and why did she get involved in this, these demonstrations and become the symbol that she used today?

TK: So I need to explain here a little bit. In 2019, she was invited to be an art director of one of the cultural hub. And work together with Viktor Babariko, actually. And then in May 2020, Viktor Babariko decided to be a candidate for presidential elections. And he asked Maria whether she will join his team and she agreed. So that is how politics began for Maria. And just after the start of the presidential campaign in 2020, Viktor Babariko was arrested. And Maria spoke on behalf of his team and on behalf of him. And Maxim Znak also. Then, Maria supportered Svetlana Tikhanovskaya also, yes. Because we had to unite our forces, yeah. And Maria became, and Maxim also, they became very well known in Belarus for this. And as well as Svetlana. No one knew them before. And Svetlana left the country. And Maria left the country. She said that she will not. And these massive protests, they were on the streets and she was there. And of course, this is a great boost of her popularity.

CO: But she was… I mean, you just mentioned some of the other leaders who left the country. And what was so... was so well known about your sister in Belarus is that she didn't go, did she? She ripped up her passport to stop the authorities from actually forcing her out of the country following that election. And she could have left. She could have gone to Poland, where you are now. So why do you think she stayed? Why was it so important to her to face this and to now face this sentence?

TK: Yeah, of course, a lot of people ask her this question. Like, why don't you leave? And she said, I will not leave because there are my friends and they are detained. I will stay in the country and I will fight till the end. And, yeah, it's true, she... she was brought to the border, she tore up her passport and she just ran out of the car and she said she went to the Belarusian border. She said, I will not... I go, home, yes. [chuckling] I will not go anywhere. And, of course, once the passport was ripped, they cannot do anything. So they detained her. And, of course, like, if you understand that she knew that once they cannot move her out of the country, she will be detained. She knew that. She understood that. But she decided to stay.

CO: Tatsiana, you have a very strong, very courageous sister. I appreciate hearing about her today and speaking with you. Thank you.

TK: Thank you very much. Thank you. Bye

CH: Tatsiana Khomich is the sister of the Belarusian opposition politician Maria Kolesnikova. We reached her in Warsaw, Poland. Yesterday, a court in Belarus sentenced Ms. Kolesnikova to 11 years in prison for trying to bring the dictatorship of Alexander Lukashenko to an end.

[music: glitch hop]

SOD: Movie Max Voicemail Guy

CH: If we're being honest, a lot of us are just phoning it in at this point. Not that we don't want to be our unflappably professional selves but it's been a time. And while we try to fake it until we finally make it through, maybe now more than ever, that fragile veneer of totally-fineness is just one crack away from exposing what lies just beneath. Which is to say frustrated, flustered, fallible human beings. Who may be prone to a little bad language when they think no one is listening. Or a truly phenomenal amount of bad language. Like say as they attempt to record a new outgoing voicemail message for their place of work. Which, for one New Zealand movie theatre employee, didn't quite work out as planned.

SOUNDCLIP

MOVIE MAX GUY: Hello and thank you for calling Movie Max Digital Cinemas Timaru. We are currently closed until… ah [expletive]. Hello and thank you for calling Movie Max Digital Cinemas Timaru. We are currently closed until Level 2. You can receive more [expletive]. Hello and thank you for calling Movie Max Digital Cinemas Timaru. We are currently closed until we reach Level 2. You can check our website for updates on… ah, [expletive]. Hello and thank you for calling Movie Max Digital Cinemas Timaru. We are currently closed until we reach Level 2. You can check our Facebook page and website for information on screening times and upcoming movies. Thank you.

CH: No, Movie Max voicemail guy -- thank you. From Timaru, New Zealand, that's our Sound of the Day.

[music: carnival music]

Part 3: Election: NDP Candidate, Emissions Concerts Research

FOA: Carolyn Shoemaker Obit

CH: They say it's never too late to shoot for the stars. And Flagstaff, Arizona's Carolyn Shoemaker, apparently interpreted that adage quite literally. Until her fifties, Ms. Shoemaker was a homemaker. She raised three kids and accompanied her planetary geologist husband, Eugene Shoemaker, on field expeditions. But after the couple's youngest child left home for university, Ms. Shoemaker wrote that she, quote, "felt a need to do something interesting." And so she did. In her retirement, and without academic training, she became the world's foremost detector of comets and asteroids. Carolyn Shoemaker died last month. She was 92 years old. In 1993 -- the year before she broke a world record for comet detection -- Ms. Shoemaker spoke with then-"As It Happens" host Michael Enright about what drew her to the work.

SOUNDCLIP

CAROLYN SHOEMAKER: I started in 1980 first looking at asteroids and became very interested then. Asteroids are rather exciting to me because they're closer, and they move. The stars don't appear to move, although, of course, they do. But asteroids are just a different sort of body. We don't look through the telescope and see asteroids, but we photograph the sky, and then we look at the film, and we can find asteroids.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: So what would you do on a typical all-night vigil at the telescope?

CS: Oh, a typical night sort of starts out with our planning the fields that we're going to take. And then, as soon as it's dark enough to open the telescope, two people go up, and one puts the other one onto the telescope by helping him to set up on the position of the guide star. And the other person stays down below and scans films. And throughout the night, we switch off people on the telescope and one person develops the films. And this goes on until dawn. [chuckle] And we look at the films through a stereomicroscope.

ME: Uh-huh.

CS: So I'm seeing a third dimension. The stars lay down nice and flat on these films. And then I compare two. And the asteroids and the comets float. And they're easy to pick off that way.

ME: You're looking essentially at the northern hemisphere, I take it?

CS: Yes, we are.

ME: Do you have opposite numbers looking at the south?

CS: We have one person in Australia. And then there are some in New Zealand that look. And both of these are very dedicated people. They're --

ME: Well, you sound pretty dedicated yourself if you go out every month to look at --

CS: [laughing] I think every one of us who is in the business is dedicated. We find a great deal of excitement in it. And part of the pleasure is... is just knowing that if we find something, maybe someone on a telescope in some other country will follow it up. And so that we don't lose it, we can learn its orbit and then learn about it.

CH: Comet and asteroid detector Carolyn Shoemaker, speaking with Michael Enright on "As It Happens" in 1993. Ms. Shoemaker died last month. She was 92 years old.

[music: ambient]

Election: NDP Candidate

Guest: Heather McPherson

CH: Heather McPherson and her party are hoping for something big in this month's election. Ms. McPherson is the NDP candidate in the riding of Edmonton-Strathcona. She was Alberta's one and only NDP MP in the last Parliament. But party leader Jagmeet Singh is hoping for more this time. And polls suggest that, after six years of the Liberal government, progressive voters are considering their options. That has some of them taking a harder look at what the NDP would do if they held the balance of power. During the campaign, "As It Happens" has asked to discuss the major issues with candidates from each of the major parties. Today, we reached NDP candidate Heather McPherson in Edmonton.

CO: Ms. McPherson, what is it like out there? Is this campaign as nasty in Edmonton-Strathcona as it looks when we watch the national campaigns?

HEATHER MCPHERSON: You know, it's not. It's been, you know, a very different campaign, of course, because of COVID-19. And we're not... we're not able to have those big... those big events, those big rallies. We usually have our volunteers come and have dinner in the campaign office. And, of course, can't do that this time. So it's... it's a little quieter. But... but for the most part, it's been just incredibly supportive when I talk to folks on their doorstep. When I've been talking to people in restaurants and in businesses around the... around the riding.

CO: But as you're... as you're selling the shift that you are offering as... as… as an NDPer and as part of Jagmeet Singh's team, what we're not seeing from the NDP is a costing of the promises that are in this platform, dental care, paid sick leave, fully-electric public transit, relieving of debt of students. What's it going to cost?

HM: Well, the big priority for me when I... when I hear people talk about what it's going to cost is... is I think it's really important that we look at the priorities that people have made, the decisions that governments have made. And we've seen time and time again that the Conservatives and the Liberals have supported big business. They've supported the wealthy. You know, the sheer amount of wealth that has increased for those that are already the ultra-wealthy during this pandemic is pretty obscene. You know, there's folks in Edmonton-Strathcona and across the country that haven't been able to meet their needs over the last 18 months. And yet, billionaires have amassed huge amounts of wealth over the last 18 months. So it's about choices, right? The other thing is the wealth tax. Like, why are we... why... why do we have 80 per cent of Albertans support a wealth tax that would tax the ultra-wealthy. And the Conservatives and the Liberals voted against it. Like, why are we not reforming our tax system?

CO: But I guess the question is... is whether or not this balance is out? I mean, you're talking about that big business has to pay more tax. There's a call for a tax on the ultra-rich. But are those taxes enough to pay for the promises that the NDP is putting out in its platform?

HM: I think so. You know --

CO: Not I think so. Is it or is it not? I mean, where does the... where is the costing that's not just a matter of opinion. Where are you seeing this costed out?

HM: Yeah, and that's totally fair, Carol. But you know what? The... the fact that the prime minister has called the snap election means that the budget officer hasn't been able to do any of the costing. You know, this is very, very difficult to do this on a snap election. And we've looked at the numbers. We think it works extremely well. We think Canadians will see that what we should be investing in is our small businesses. We should be investing in long-term care. You know, I... I just can't imagine a scenario where every single Canadian doesn't want to make sure that we never see what happens in long-term care again. You know, I can't imagine a scenario where people think it's OK that the ultra-wealthy are making tons of money. That nobody's ever been called to account for the Panama Papers, for example. And yet, when... when you look at supports for pharmacare, which we've seen time and time again promised by different governments, no, we don't have money for that. You know, you look at child care, 10 dollar a day, child care would, in fact, restart our economy. It would actually allow the 100,000 women who have left the workforce to come back to work here and stimulate our economy.

CO: Right. But the Liberals are --

HM: It makes common sense.

CO: Yeah, Liberals are promising that and some of the other things that they have, OK, [chuckle] borrowed or stolen from the NDP. But at the same time, they've costed their program. You have... you have this attack on the ultra-wealthy. You say that's going to yield all kinds of money. I guess what Canadians need to know is what you would do with these... these hard-earned taxes?

HM: Well, I think what we would do is we would invest in things like making sure that the Liberals or, you know, that... that the 10 dollars a day daycare actually happened. You know, frankly, I mean, I hate to be partisan about this, but realistically, the Liberals have been... have waited until year six of their mandate to bring this forward as a campaign promise, again! Why would Canadians think that they're going to do it without... when they haven't done it before?

CO: Let's talk about... let's talk about your promises on climate change. Because this is a big issue, perhaps not as much in Alberta as it is elsewhere, but among the people that you're appealing to in Alberta, it certainly is. But what do you say to Simon Fraser University's climate expert, Mark Jaccard, who assessing the different parties climate platforms, he put the NDP's platform on climate change dead last, behind even the Conservatives, saying that your plan is, quote, largely ineffective and unnecessarily costly?

SM: Well, I think one of the things that... that I've been pushing for within the caucus, pushing for within the party is that our climate plan has to have workers at the centre. You know, you can promise whatever you want. We've... we've seen Conservative and Liberal governments that have promised climate change targets. They've met none of them. So, you know, how do you say one of these is effective when none of those targets have been met?

CO: Right. But --

SM: They've had the opportunity to do it, and they never, ever have.

CO: What does it mean, though? You say... I just want point to another critic of the NDP in Alberta, the University of Calgary climate economist Jennifer Winter, who agrees with Professor Jaccard that your policy doesn't add up to much on climate change. And she says it's more of the same vagueness and platitudes as in 2019. So, again, I'm not hearing anything specific that tells me that you do have a plan or a vision for dealing with climate change, which is, as you point out, a major issue for everyone in this country.

SM: Um-hmmm. It is, in fact, the most important issue. Well, and we... you know, I guess I'd argue that I feel like our plan is actually quite strong. I feel like our plan is... you know, we've seen over the last 18 months the NDP push the Liberals to make the legislation that they've proposed on that net-zero to be stronger. We've seen the... the NDP said that time and time again and demand further pushes, further action to make sure climate change is dealt with appropriately. And it does come back as well to this idea that... that think about the things that we can do within our communities to deal with climate change and to take the opportunity of, you know, this moment in time. You know, we saw during COVID things can turn on a dime if they need to. We've been told for decades that it can't. We've been told for decades that it's going to take so much time for us to do this, and it's impossible, and it's too onerous. But... but that's not true. And in fact, in fact, we're out of time. Like the IPCC report came out. We need governments to be more ambitious, and we need them to be more... more active. And frankly, our climate plan is going to push to make sure that there is real action and that workers still have jobs, that we still keep these family-sustaining jobs. And that has to happen.

CO: Right. But I'm hearing... OK, but the question was, is that, as Jennifer Winter says, that your policy seems vague and full of platitudes. I have to say, and with respect, that that is exactly what I'm hearing from you right now.

HM: Well, and I have to say, too, that I feel a little bit like platforms like that. Like, we... we put out our ideas. We put out our thoughts. They're very, very high-level. If you want to dig into some of the details, I think that one of the things that we need to do is that we need to be looking at alternative energies. We need to have the federal government invest in the infrastructure that we need to build to, you know, have public transit. I think public transit is a massive part of this. We need to be investing in... in what it looks like to have the infrastructure to electrify some of our systems. We need to be looking at the electric grid across the country, particularly in Alberta, and how we can actually nationalize that and put that in a place where we can actually use energy from different places to... to take coal out of the system, for example.

CO: If the election goes as it looks like it's going, possibly a minority government, again, where will the NDP, where will Jagmeet Singh put its support?

HM: Well, of course, we're still running to be the government.

CO: Where do you think it will go if there's a minority government again?

HM: Well, I think, again, that we would like to be government. And if we're not government, we will continue to put our support with Canadians. If it's a minority government, if we have gone through this election process and we end up in the exact same spot we were at before, we'll do what we did the last 18 months. You know, we got a lot of wins for Canadians. We got a lot of wins for the people that... that's had nobody fighting for them. We got the CERB. We got the queues. We got all of these things for Canadians. We'll keep doing that. My job is to represent Alberta. My job is to make sure that the things that are best for my constituents happen, and I'm going to keep fighting for that. So, you know, whoever's pulling in that direction, I'm going to fight with them.

CO: All right. We will be watching what happens in Alberta. Ms. McPherson, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

HM: Thank you so much.

CH: Heather McPherson is the NDP candidate in Edmonton-Strathcona. We reached her in Edmonton. "As It Happens" has requested interviews with candidates for all the major parties during the election campaign.

[music: ambient]

Michael K. Williams Obit

CH: With his haunting whistle and his sawed-off shotgun, Omar Little from "The Wire" is one of the most memorable characters in television history. And that's because of the man who portrayed him -- Michael K. Williams. Mr. Williams was found dead in his Brooklyn, New York apartment yesterday. He was 54. After his indelible performance "The Wire", Mr. Williams went on to star in shows including "Boardwalk Empire" and "Lovecraft Country." And he used his fame to better his own community and to advocate, among many things, against mass incarceration. All while battling an addiction with drugs. Today, his "Wire" co-stars, Andre Royo, who played Bubbles, and Sonja Sohn, who played Detective Kima Greggs, spoke with CNN about the legacy of Michael K. Williams.

SOUNDCLIP

SONJA SOHN: You know, Michael took his role in this business very seriously. He understood it to be a mission and a purpose, a path that God chose for him. You know, he utilized this art form for something so much greater than his own benefit. This arena was a place where he could take the brutality that life sometimes bestowed upon him and alchemize that into something, you know, through this craft that brought beauty and healing to other folks. You know, we won't look at LGBTQ folks in the same way again. And yeah, we just... we're going to miss him dearly.

DON LEMON: He had enormous advocacy off-screen as well, right? Using his fame to draw attention to issues. Criminal justice reform was a big one.

SS: No, absolutely.

DL: A big one for him. And New York Times quotes a childhood friend of his, Darrel Wilds, who called him a prophet of the projects in his advocacy. And I wonder if that resonates with... with either of you?

ANDRE ROYO: Yeah, I mean, it resonates with me because, you know, I met Michael in 97, you know, in Brooklyn. And, you know, he always... he always spoke of, you know, how excited he was to get a chance to maybe, you know, with this new platform as far as acting is concerned that he would be able to, you know, show a path for his brothers and sisters out there in Brooklyn. And... and I think he knew that him being... every time he was in front of the camera or any time he would have had an opportunity to speak, that he was not speaking just for himself. He was speaking for a lot of people behind him. And hopefully, we will… you know, we will continue to remember him for that. And know that he definitely, definitely wore it as a badge of courage that he was speaking with so many people.

CH: That was Andre Royo, and before that, Sonja Sohn speaking with CNN about their "Wire" co-star, Michael K. Williams. Mr. Williams was found dead in his apartment yesterday. He was 54.

[music: classic rock]

Emissions Concerts Research

Guest: Carly McLachlan

CH: To get to a concert, you walk, or drive, or take transit. But to stage a whole tour worth of concerts as a band, you drive, or take a bus, or fly across or between countries, for months on end. Then there are the trucks lugging gear between venues -- and the energy required to put on an epic, pyrotechnic-filled show to a stadium full of fans. The British band Massive Attack wants other musicians to consider the environmental impact of all that. So, back in 2019, it approached researchers with the Tyndall Centre for Climate Change Research at the University of Manchester to "map" the carbon footprint of live music. And create an open resource for the industry to reduce its footprint. That research has just been published. It was led by Professor Carly McLachlan. We reached her just outside Manchester, England.

CO: Carly, do you really think that rock music stars would be willing to ditch their private jets and take trains?

CARLY MCLACHLAN: Yeah, I do, actually. And I think although the private jet recommendation into our report, that came from some conversations in a workshop with industry people where they were... they were saying, you know, there's... there's some artists who really struggle to ever get over their private jet. But actually, most touring is not done in private jets. It's done on commercial aircraft. And then what we're seeing is. Actually, there's lots of opportunities to swap that for train travel as long as you think about these things right from the inception of a tour. And I think, you know, the more you hear artists and people throughout the industry talking about wanting to make a contribution to avoiding the worst impacts of climate change, it seems actually pretty reasonable to me that that these new practices would be adopted.

CO: This study of yours that you have spent so much time looking at this possibility of reducing the carbon footprint of rock music tours. This came about after a phone call from Robert Del Naja of Massive Attack the band, right? How did it end up doing... end up being what you're doing?

CM: I love the idea, and I kind of don't want to ruin the romanticism of the idea that Rob just rang me up one day. But, actually, someone from his team rang me up, and we had a chat about kind of how we would approach the work and things. And then, actually, very quickly, we did... we did meet Rob and talk with Rob. And, you know, that's... that's occurred throughout the work where we've reported back to him on what we've, you know, what we found and what we plan to do next.

CO: And what are you recommending to music acts, music stars who are doing these tours?

CM: So I suppose one of the things to say is, yeah, it's about the artist, but it's about everyone in the sector, all the different elements of it, you know, agents, promoters, venues, tour... tour managers, the sort of audiovisual engineers. Actually, everybody's got a part to play here. And the key thing is to think about it from the very inception of the tour. So low-carbon is baked into everything. You know, how much stuff you move around, how much equipment you're moving around, can you... can you adopt more plug-and-play approaches where the equipment is there where you're going? Can venues do that in a more extensive way for you? How are you getting between places? And then also, how are you thinking about helping your audience make the lowest carbon travel option, the easiest, most obvious and funnest way to do it, rather than maybe, you know, your show finishing just after the last train for you to get home, but there being loads of cheap car parking locally. And, actually, that making the car seem like the easiest option. We'd like to try and see public transit being the thing that we... that we make the obvious and easiest and ideally funnest way of getting to the shows. And the reason I say funnest is because we've been thinking about how to make that safer festivals part of, like, the festival experience from the moment you get on the train or the bus so that it really becomes part of the package.

CO: we've seen in other sectors, as well as in the music and performance, that virtual performances have taken a much larger role during the pandemic, right? And so is that a possibility? I mean, is that... people are anxious to get back [chuckling] to the moshpit, back to the concert venue. They want to be there with all those people because that... you just get that energy and that vibe. And the performers do want that as well. But do you think that there is a place in this new reality for more virtual performances?

CM: Well, I think it's a really interesting question. So, you know, it's not where we've gone with the research. What we've been trying to say in this research is, you know, live music, touring. How do you still do this, you know, beautiful thing that we all love. That's been something we've missed so much during COVID. And people are so desperate to get back to it. And, you know, it really has such a kind of an emotional connection for people to be together and to experience, you know, whatever kind of live music you really love together. But I think it is interesting that people have trialled these things because of COVID. And, actually, you know, there's... there's further plans for them. So like the ABBA announcement that was made recently. And I think that's kind of fun to see where that goes. But it's certainly not our intention to say, you know, everything's got to be like that now. What we would like is the sector to really grasp this challenge, to say we are going to get ahead of it. We are going to really transition to a much more carbon way of doing things very quickly. And so then that becomes an obvious part of a sustainable future. And for the things that you can't get the carbon out of, you know, aviation, for example, and there isn't an obvious drop in technology for some flights. So you would still have some carbon going on. Then if we see actually as a... as a, you know, as a global community, a thing that's really worth the limited carbon we emit is live music. And, you know, that's a value judgement. But it's made much easier if the rest of the sector, the things that are easier to decarbonize, like your energy consumption, then that stuff's really been happening at pace.

CO: This is image I have in my [chuckling] head of over the decades of seeing, you know, tour buses, the band on the bus, the... the van that where you... some wheezing old thing full of equipment and... and refreshments. [laughing] And people living in there, sleeping in there. I mean, it still goes on, right. So is it easier for a band, a large organization that Massive Attack has around that to do this kind of thing than those, you know, up and coming acts that are just going from festival to venue to town to bars and all that?

CM: Yeah, I think you can see that in, you know, the... the really big artists that have come out and said that they want much lower carbon options for... for touring. And in some ways, while some people have been critical of that because they're like, well, they've got they've got the power to do that. But I think, yeah, great. They've got the power to do it. So... so use it and... and use that influence. Use your network amongst that industry to try and drive change. And that actually helps people coming up and through. Because if you arrive at the venue, the plug-and-play stuff is there for you as well. You don't have to... to fight this battle in 10 years time when you're the... when you're the megastar, it will already be sorted out. We're really sensitive to the idea that not, you know, there's really different kind of levels of power and influence. And what we are asking in the report is for where people have direct control, and they can do things differently, and they're able to do that, then great! Do that. But also, use your wider influence. You know, I'm really pleased to see, you know, very well-known acts, you know, whether that's Massive Attack or Coldplay or others saying that they would like to see transformation in this sector and doing all they can to help it happen.

CO: Very interesting. [chuckling] We’ll probably get a lot of responses to this. Carly, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

CM: Thanks a lot.

CH: Carly McLachlan is with the University of Manchester's Tyndall Centre for Climate Change Research. We reached her near Manchester, England. And we've posted this story to our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

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September 07, 2021 Episode Transcript

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